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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 500

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Another Animal Bug
         2. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         3. Hep w/FFS errata & suplements
         4. Re: Realistic Income Model Proposal
         5. Re: Hep w/FFS errata & suplements
         6. Random Thoughts
         7. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
         8. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
         9. Re: Kinunirs
        10. Copyright?  Right!
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496
        12. RE:  Trip to the store
        13. Re: Cleon & The marches
        14. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
        15. RE:  Trip to the store
        16. Re: More errata to report, and a call for ideas
        17. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
        18. Virus & Hard Times
        19. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #496
        20. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 01:59:14 UT
Subject: RE: Another Animal Bug

Rob Prior said:
>While looking for the base animal hit number (and not finding it), I noticed
>another bug in the animal encounter table system.
>
>On page 142, under Animal Characteristics, it states that the a score of A7
>means that the animal attacks on a roll of 7 or less.  This is opposite the
>CT system, in which the number had to be equalled or exceeded.

I noticed that many of the die rolls required in T4 are flip-flopped from CT, 
since I haven't really studied the rules of MT or TNE, I dunno if this trend 
started in those games or not.  Can anybody explain the reasoning behind doing 
this?  

				---Curious Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 02:01:32 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Joe Walsh countered:

>On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider ranted thusly:
>
>> ---Boyd
>> (socially acceptable now that he has been pardoned by Joe Walsh)
>
>Hey, don't blame ME for your being socially acceptable.  That's your 
>problem. :D

Awww, its good to be back home again...   ;-)>

			---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:11:31 -0500
Subject: Hep w/FFS errata & suplements

Are there any web sites with errata and or suplements/updates to FF&S. 
They might be some help right now.
Thanks.
______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 22:21:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Realistic Income Model Proposal

Mark Ayers wrote:

> 2. General tax burden can be 10% + government level.


Except in Canada where it is 10% + (5 x government level)

------------------------------

From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:13:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Hep w/FFS errata & suplements

Oops fogot the l in help!?!
- ----------
> From: David Murray <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Cc: David Murray <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Hep w/FFS errata & suplements
> Date: Tuesday, August 06, 1996 9:11 PM
 

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:23:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Random Thoughts

Well, I've grown bored with the Presidential Debate, after watching 69 
minutes of it.  Before the debate, the local PBS station ran part one of 
a two-part documentary on Teddy Roosevelt.  After seeing Teddy in action, 
I'm even more despondent over our current choices for the highest office 
in the land.

Anyway, Carole and I spent some time this weekend de-bugging Traveller.  
Carole made some nice labels on our new laser printer (Panasonic KX-P6500, 
which we've found to be a nice home or home-office laser printer) for the 
missing Jump Drive Potential table, the messed-up DM for Sandcasters vs. 
Salvos table, a home-grown Benefit Rolls table, and the rule from the TML 
for "minimum level skill use." (Sorry, I don't recall who came up with 
that rule.)  Then, we went through and highlighted the various skills on 
the chargen tables that should have been boldfaced.  Finally, I did some 
cut-and-paste of various numbers that needed changing (the cost of an 
air raft, the number of shots for a body pistol, etc.) from some 
leftover labels to the proper locations within the book.

And, after all that finicky work, we finally have an almost-perfect T4 
book.  All that's missing is the grammar/typo error corrections, and a 
fix for the recently-noted error in the Animal Characteristics Table.  
Sigh.

This weekend, I also finished editing T4 for IG, wrote a cover letter 
with a number of suggested changes (nothing earth-shattering; just stuff 
like adding more examples, adding a few Patron Encounters and a Casual 
Encounter, etc.), and got one step closer to finishing RPSC.

All this was in addition to the usual stuff (housework, grocery shopping, 
etc.) and getting the place ready for when my parents come to visit from 
California for the first time since I've been here in Illinois, this 
coming Saturday.

Whew!  It's been a busy weekend.

It's time to go to bed, and get ready for tomorrow, when I meet the new 
President of the company I work for.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 22:31:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Last I heard, women make up for the lack of strength by having more
> stamina/endurance, a much higher "constitution" and a *very much*
> higher pain tolerance.

You've been reading The Dragon, haven't you?
Women have a higher resistance to disease, and are immune to a great number of genetic 
defects (colour blindness, haemophilia etc) but actual physical stAmina depends on 
muscle, where men are greater (that took me a bit to find a half -decent word)
Actual studies of athletes have found that in endurance type tasks, women can get within 
10% of an equally trained man
Pain tolerance, no
Ability to tolerate tedia, yes (studies of women workers from ww2)

> Among other things, it has been speculated that given equal
> opportunities/training women would make better fighter pilots than men,
> as their small size combined with a higher G tolerance adds up to a
> definite plus factor.

Negative again. The ability to tolerate g-forces is a measure of training and physique
In space, however, women are better off because of their higher average fat content
(in short, the more muscular you start out, the worse the effects of weightlessness will 
be on you)

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 22:33:59 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> I hate to say it, but errata are part and parcel with book
> publishing.  Go back and take a look at your favorite novel,
> particularly if its a first printing/first edition. 

that may be so, but it still smacks of unprofessionalism and a shoddy attitude (aah, ship 
it anyway, the readers won't mind a few pages of errata)
There is a considerable dif between a typo or two and missing some very important 
tables

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 02:36:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Kinunirs

On Oct 05, 1996 12:31:32, 'Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>' wrote: 
 
>I cite as my authority the novel _To Dream of Chaos_;  
>the Solee had a number of them in the book.  
 
Only one, actually, but yes, they became available 
in the rimward end of Imperial space. 
 
 
>Might these relics be prizes captured by the  
>Solomani during their offensive from the Rim? 
 
In Old Expanses, the flow of events was roughly 
as follows (I don't have dates in front of me right now): 
 
1) The Solomani attacked; 
2) not knowing about (1) yet, Lucan ordered the Sector 
Fleet withdrawn for operations against Dulinor; 
3) with only local sub-sector Colonial Fleets to defend 
against front-line Solomani forces, the sector 
nobility surrendered. However, at best, the Solomani 
only gained effective control of a little over half 
the sector; 
4) attacks by Margaret pushed Solomani control back 
to within the rimward-most subsectors; 
5) Black War attacks wrecked key facilities in some 
parts of the sector; 
6) the Hard Times developed from the economic  
dislocations. The most coreward and rimward parts 
were fronteir zones of Margaret and the Solomani,  
repectively. The central areas were worse off; 
7) the Virus made everything else a moot point. 
 
They're likely ex-Imperial Colonial ships whose fleet-of-service 
might have depended on what time period you're  
talking about. 
 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 96 20:03:19 -0500
Subject: Copyright?  Right!

On 10/06/96 at 09:59 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>At 04:36 pm 10/5/96 -0700, David Joseph Smart wrote:
>---------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^

>        Nice name ... too bad I own the copyright. Please submit Cr1,000
>usage fee...
>--________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden    

No!  No!  If anybody owned the copyright it would be your parents, <g> and
besides it would have expired already.  OTOH, if you own the *Trademark*
then....<g>

Eris 

[Homer owns the trademark on my name.  No, I don't mean Homer
Simpson!  <g>]


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 23:08:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> Speaking as a mystic, I wouldn't consider it blasphemy for someone to
> disbelieve in things spiritual.  Ignorant, but not blasphemy.  The issue of
> blasphemy is in the realm of the "religious" (my use of the word "religious"
> is symantically similar to your use of the word "fundamentalist."

Speaking as an anthropologist, religion is a set of beliefs
And speaking as a cynical atheist (considered an infidel by _all_religions of this planet)
mythology is somebody else's religion, and what is right is what you know to be the 
holy truth
It doesn't matter squat that you do not believe the same as the Holy Rollers, they 
_know_ you are wrong and are willing to burn you to save your soul

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 22:52:16 -0500
Subject: RE:  Trip to the store

To everyone who has sent a request, I am working on getting back to
everyone, but I have run into a problem...

I am wondering about shipping costs.  I am going to try to find some answers
tomorrow, but I have no idea what they might be.  If anyone knows, please
let me know.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 00:17:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

First let me say that I'm glad someone out there is at least 
reading my little rants. :)

> >Anyways, I don't think Cleon "pushed" towards the marches that much at all.
> >He was probably more interested in staying in the denser parts of the 
> >galaxy, reclaiming old  Imperial turf. Mucho easier than breaking
> >new sod out in the boonies.
> 
> That may be. But the 3I /did/ reach Mora 60 years after its founding. If
> there was no push, then there must have be some pull. Cleon's son, Cleon
> the Weak may very well have personally set foot in the Marches, since he spent
> the years after his abdication on the frontier.

OK, I'll get to this in a second.
 
> (Very good point you made about the Vargr and Vilani, BTW.)

Thanks. I think that everyone has thought of the Vilani in Imperial
society like Irish people in modern America (prevalent and mostly
assimilated) when in reality they're more like the British in 
early America - the Imperium's roots and the Imperium's enemies.

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>

> I've read somewhere over the years that Cleon was half vilani and half 
> solomani.  I think his mother was solomani since he was the founder of 
> the Zhunastu Dynasty.  If memory serves, this was one of his attributes 
> that made him an attractive leader to consolodate the Sylean Federation 
> and found the 3I.  

It is likely that Cleon, like almost all humans in post-Rule of Man
space
had Solomani & Vilani heritage. I don't know about exact references.

> The solomani are adventurers reaching out into space because it is 
> there--everyone else be damned.  This spirit in the people was one of the 
> main factors that allowed them to conquer the vilani when they ran into 
> them.  
> 
> I've also read somewhere that the solomani founded the scout service at 
> the start of the 3I.  The solomani are explorers while the vilani are 
> sedentary and jealous with their technology.  As Cleon started the 
> 3I, the solomani had considerable political power--a left over from 
> the Rule of Man.  This is why the Marches were first explored with the 
> landing on Mora in 60.  The solomani settled over 75% of the Marches.  
> Look at the Sword Worlds--90% solomani.

Yes, it's true - the Solomani pushed way out into the Marches. The Sword
Worlds and the Darrians - the Solomani corporation Itzin settled on
Darrian around -1513 3I!! The Solomani were absorbed into Darrian
society 
by -1400 (Darrians, ps.8-9). But wouldn't Solomani rather push to Terra,
rather than the marches? Anyways, it makes me wonder how many resources
Cleon
had at his disposal - probably a lot of settled systems just fell in
line
with his (initially) loose trade empire/federation.

(Which makes me wonder if a lot of diplomats way away from Capital still
went around calling it the 'Sylean Federation' for decades after year 0,
thinking this whole "Imperium" fad would just pass on...)

> So, I agree, Cleon was concerned in the early years with consoldating the 
> denser area around him and reclaiming Imperial space, but he also had a 
> focus on expansion.  He was, after all, half solomani.  

Well, yes, readings show that Cleon sure as hell pushed into the Marches
at that time, but that isn't justification in itself. Neither is his
being Solomani. What was the big deal with the Marches, I wonder? Why
was
Cleon going to a lot of trouble in the Marches (which still weren't
totally
settled by the 1100's - look at District 268 - it still has a _number_!)
when he had the whole body of Imperial space to roll through without
resistance?

Maybe Cleon was just that good - by 500, the Marches were a solid 3I
territory and in 588, Terra joined the 3I. Of course, this did take 14
Emperors, so maybe Cleon doesn't get all the credit.

Enough about 500. By 50, when Cleon I's reign was almost at its end,
where were the _real_ 3I borders I wonder? Hm, now that I look at my
maps,
the Marches are past Vland, going from Core... Vland I understand, but
why
keep going? Maybe it's that first contact with Zhos in 50... hmmmm...
love at first sight?

Enough rambling,
Ethan
 
> Since then, its been constant conflict with the zho's until the 1200's 
> when the Virus banded the Regency and the zho's together. 

Yep. Imagine the Cold War, except Russia is where Canada is normally.
Mighty frosty with the occasional flurry.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:38:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

On  3 Oct 96 at 12:57, Rich Ostorero spewed:

> > BTW, the back of one of
> > the old books (either 76 patrons, or the one full of NPCs) *has*
> > Retief in it, as an un-named diplomat (one of 6 or a dozen
> > characters that they stated were drawn from SF, but left for the
> > players to try to identify. A JTAS much later gave the correct
> > answers. Retief was one, Earl Dumarest was another, Luke Skywalker
> > was in there too)

The book in question was Supplement 1: 1001 characters...  Then 
answers were given in JTAS.  The original Supplement 1 characters 
were the subject of a contest for GDW merchandise, IIRC.  When Loren, 
Marc et al did Supplement 4: Citizens they did several more...

> 
> I remember that one! Luke was the "Young Farm Kid," I thought the
> diplomat was Retif. In an old Space Gamer, someone wrote up Alois
> Hammer and Jochim Stuben (I think) from "Hammer's Slammers" for a
> character contest, too. Interesting stuff, that.
> 
> --Rich Ostorero
> stormhvn@inreach.com
> 
> 
> 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:38:38 -0800
Subject: RE:  Trip to the store

On  6 Oct 96 at 22:52, Paul Walker spewed:

> To everyone who has sent a request, I am working on getting back to
> everyone, but I have run into a problem...
> 
> I am wondering about shipping costs.  I am going to try to find some
> answers tomorrow, but I have no idea what they might be.  If anyone
> knows, please let me know.

Having done a lot of this, Priority Mail is usually a good way to go 
for books.  $3 for up to 2 lbs anywhere in the US.  Unless somebody's 
ordering a ton, this is a good way to go...

If you've got a couple of the thin books, u can probably go plain 
vanilla parcel post...  Unless you're getting large, UPS is usually 
more expensive...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:43:03 -0800
Subject: Re: More errata to report, and a call for ideas

On  6 Oct 96 at 19:05, Bruce Johnson spewed:

>  I'd appreciate anyone who has Hard Times to either e-mail me or
> post a synopsis of the process (or hell, post the whole thing!) so I
> can compare it with the stuff I have for TNE. Maybe we can work out
> something for Freelance Traveller.

I can do this, or...  There is a store in Gilbert that had Hard Times 
last I looked...  

If you might be interested in it, I'd be willing to pick it up for 
you for the price I pay for it + shipping down Tucson way...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:52:02 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

On  6 Oct 96 at 22:33, Cmdr Hold'Em spewed:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > I hate to say it, but errata are part and parcel with book
> > publishing.  Go back and take a look at your favorite novel,
> > particularly if its a first printing/first edition. 
> 
> that may be so, but it still smacks of unprofessionalism and a
> shoddy attitude (aah, ship it anyway, the readers won't mind a few
> pages of errata) There is a considerable dif between a typo or two
> and missing some very important tables

Wait a minute...  Not to defend IG unduely, but I haven't seen 
anything that indicates their attitude one way or the other on the 
matter, at least not publicly...  From what I've seen, they're 
willing to post errata, and are soliciting comments.  Now this might 
just be post release damage control for all I know, but I don't see 
that you have anything tangible from IG that indicates a shoddy 
attitude...

As for unprofessionalism.  I used to work for a Fortune 200 company 
that used to send out memos with typos and mistakes on occasion...  
Its hardly IG's exclusive province to put out stuff with typos...
As for the missing table (and really there is only 1 of any 
consequence), we knew about this back in July, when Guy Garnett 
realized it had not been forwarded to them with the rest of the stuff 
for QSDS right before the deadline...  It should have come as no shock to 
anybody on this list...

Ironically enough, IIRC, IG originally intended to publish T4 without 
a ship design system...  If they had, the 1 great error present in 
the rules would not have even had a chance to be discovered...  QSDS 
was designed in a hurry, and was thrown in with great haste by IG 
right before the deadline.  Frankly, we're lucky that Guy & Don got 
it done as well as it wound up happening...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 23:00:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Virus & Hard Times

Rob Prior wrote:
> Well, I'm not a 'holy canonist', but I did use/explain Virus.  My Virus
> wasn't exactly like GDW's, but then my campaign isn't exactly like their's
> either.  My background is telecon researcher and software engineer, while my
> father's is epidemiologist/toxicologist with a strong interest in emergent
> complexity in dynamic systems, a.life, and similar stuff.  Very hard-science
> stuff.  Together, we made Virus work for us.

I would be interested in hearing how you justified Virus:  I could never
buy the software-altering-hardware bits (esp. on TL7 & 8 systems), and the
_total_ devastation was a bit much.  Could you post a summary, or EMail me
if it's too long/technical?


Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 	I'd appreciate anyone who has Hard Times to either e-mail me or 
> post a synopsis of the process (or hell, post the whole thing!) so I can 
> compare it with the stuff I have for TNE. Maybe we can work out something 
> for Freelance Traveller.
> 
> 	Of course, if anyone has a copy  of Hard Times they'd like to 
> part with, let me know, too.

I also do not have access to _Hard Times_.  What would MM say about
posting the collapse sequence, as it probably won't be republished any
time soon, if ever?

Bruce has dibs on the first HT; anyone have two? ;^)

				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 05:54:17 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

Cmdr Hold'Em ranted:

>Boyd Schneider wrote:
>> Speaking as a mystic, I wouldn't consider it blasphemy for someone to
>> disbelieve in things spiritual.  Ignorant, but not blasphemy.  The issue of
>> blasphemy is in the realm of the "religious" (my use of the word 
"religious"
>> is symantically similar to your use of the word "fundamentalist."
>
>Speaking as an anthropologist, religion is a set of beliefs
>And speaking as a cynical atheist (considered an infidel by _all_religions of 
>this planet) mythology is somebody else's religion, and what is right is what 
>you know to be the holy truth 
>It doesn't matter squat that you do not believe the same as the Holy Rollers, 
>they _know_ you are wrong and are willing to burn you to save your soul

Okay, I'll play along...  Are you sure you want to limit your definition of 
religion to "a set of beliefs?"  I'd be more than happy to discuss this off 
TML, again, my email address is HomeBoyd@msn.com.  Once we begin the 
discussion, I will stop at any time you request it.  In other words, you will 
receive no unsolicited email from me, only replies relevent to our discussion. 
 I promise to be a nice Holy Roller.   :-)>  

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 01:47:18 -0400
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

At 11:18 AM -0400 10/4/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> My list of 10 literary sources for Traveller background.
>>
>> 1) _Mote in God's Eye_, by Jerry Pournelle.  It is the source of the
>> Langston Field (aka Black Globe), after all.
>>
>> 2) The John Christian Falkenberg series, by Jerry Pournelle (and the S.M.
>> Stirling stuff in the same timeline)
>
>Both of the above are the *same* timeline. You have the Codominiun,
>then after Terra tries to commit nuclear suicide, the Fleet establishes
>the Empire, with it's capital on Sparta. The Empire lasts a century or
>two and falls apart in the wake of the war with the Sauron Supermen.
>Eventually a second Empire starts up. "Mote in God's Eye" is from the
>Second Empire period. So is "King David's Spaceship" (and the shorter
>version "A Spaceship for the King").

I listed them seperately because they each showcase a different aspect of
the Empire.  _Mote_ for ship combat, the Falkenberg stuff for the ground
combat.

Thinking back, L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s Ecolitan novels should also be on the list.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

A friend is someone you can call to help you move.  A best friend is
someone you can call to help you move a body.



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #500
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 501

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: my idea of fun
         2. Re: social-acceptance
         3. Blasphemy, Time, and DNA
         4. Re: Cleon & The marches
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #499
         6. Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)
         7. Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!
         8. Re: go for the bridge of the nose!
         9. USP - Caravan and Stagecoach (long)
        10. More Corrections
        11. RE: Another Animal Bug
        12. Unexplored worlds in Year 0.
        13. Re: RED ZONE: An adventure -Reply
        14. Station Gamma nostalgia
        15. Re:(assorted)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:05:13 +1300
Subject: Re: my idea of fun

> 
> *Anti*-social? It's about as social as you can get.
> 
> Depends on the player. Some would always play males, but most tried
> female at least once. Say an average of 1 PC in 5 would be female.
> 
>     ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
> Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
> Andrew, are you an ex-pat New Zealander or did you just visit New 
Zealand at some time? 

BTW who are you quoting in your signature? Its not the Fat Controller 
from that Will Self book, is it?

Are the female characters that are sometimes played by your players of 
the Emma Peel or Nikita variety that has been mentioned already on this 
list?


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:38:40 +1300
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

> > > Hmmm . . . I thought we Yanks had a monopoly on the social-acceptance
> > > problems. How widesread is this phenomenon in Canada, the UK and
> > > Australia?
> >
> > Interesting call this.  The few people I speak to about it usually think
> > its a bit childish to be "playing games" at my age (28).  
> 
> The usual Stage One response. My parents think this hobby is some kind of evil
> mind-control cult, and I'm 37.
> 

That is hardcore. I have the greatest respect for you sticking with it 
under that kind of pressure.

>
> In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not _physically
> safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs, practice alternative spirituality or are
> otherwise "wierd." The Friendly Local Game Store has been _picketed_ by the local Fundie
> Christians as a source of those _evil_, devil-games.
> 

> I always say that my hobbies are "SF, military science, military history, and
> computers." The synrgy is obvious to those in the know, but is not to the local
> mundanes.
> 
> - --Rich Ostorero
> stormhvn@inreach.com
> 

Rich, that is truely incredible. The closest thing to that kind of 
reaction came from the mother of a good friend of mine when he was 
about 16. She banned him from coming to our gaming club and confiscated 
his books. He would still find a way of playing though. 

Rich, I expect the situation is agrevated in your community by the 
current trends in packaging design for RPGs.



------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:01:11 +0900
Subject: Blasphemy, Time, and DNA

Glenn Grant said:

> Not demonology. Blasphemy. In order to actually believe in demons you 
have
> to be a fundamentalist christian (of a sort).

Boyd said:

>>Speaking as a mystic, I wouldn't consider it blasphemy for someone to
>>disbelieve in things spiritual.  Ignorant, but not blasphemy.  The issue 
of
>>blasphemy is in the realm of the "religious" (my use of the word 
"religious"
>>is symantically similar to your use of the word "fundamentalist."

Hmm. Talking about religion is a loaded topic, and it is very difficult to 
know what terms to avoid.  "Blasphemy" is a term that will not be accepted 
by the religious unless it is uttered by a religious authority.  However, I 
would object to the use of "ignorant" to describe a person who has a 
differing opinion about spiritual, mystical, or mythical beings. 
 Objectively speaking, the existence of such things cannot be verified 
scientifically and so I cannot consider their existence to be fact. 
 Therefore any claim that they exist is opinion.  Everyone is entitled to 
their opinion, but calling someone "ignorant" because they disagree with 
your opinion is a bit harsh.  One can only be "ignorant" of facts, not 
opinion.

I am an atheist.  I play Traveller and AD&D (well, I almost always GM not 
play), and religion is an interesting theme for an AD&D world.  However, I 
have never believed any of the creatures in the Monster Manual to be real 
(except horses and dogs and such!), especially the devils and demons, unique 
named ones included.  Spells and other such "occult" things are nothing but 
fantasy to me.  I too see the fundamentalist obsession with destroying RPGs 
as an insecure reaction to a game which treats their beliefs that demons and 
the occult are real as simply another element in a game, not to be taken 
seriously.  The game challenges their beliefs, and they cannot tolerate 
that.  Being an atheist, I can look at the problem not from the perspective 
of "which interpretation of religious doctrine is correct," but from the 
perspective of "why is it that the religious get upset by fiction."

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>I've got to find the time to work up the details, but the basic thing
is, that observers moving relative to each other see things happen at
different times, and there is no such thing as simultaneous events if
the events are in different places. Different observers will see them
happen at different times.

Ooh, my head hurts.  I've always loved science, but never had the 
mathematical aptitude for it.  I am very interested in your theory, but I 
think I will understand better with examples and diagrams.  I'm eagerly 
awaiting your working up of the details.  Thanks!

>>Later, when interstellar travel turns up humans on other worlds, if
someone *remembers* that old theory, it might get another look, but it
wouldn't happen quickly or soon.

This is true unless the theory was developed in a time when interstellar 
contact had already been made.  During the Long Night, do you think that 
most worlds would have forgotten about the existence of humans, etc. on 
other nearby planets?

>>Scientific theories have to be *inclusive*. And that would be fatal to
evolution until they had hard evidence to show that there really *were*
two seperate sets of species.

I guess you're right about that, unless you count DNA analysis as a means to 
prove that the species were from separate sets.  Would that count?

Thanks,

Armand



------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 00:36:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

     What's so important about the Spinward Marches?  Well, two big things 
are the Ancients howeworld and the proximity to Zhodane.  While the first
wouldn't have been known in the early 3I (is there any evidence that it may
have been Suspected even?) the second one would seemingly have been of
pretty major importance.  It's cited that the 3I contacted Zhodani c. 50,
and imagine what they thought: A fellow rapidly-expanding Human empire, but
this one made of shady Psions.  No wonder they were in a hurry to grab up
as much "land" Spinward of the Great Rift as possible-- we've got to 
establish a strategic beach-head there before the Zhos claim it and next
thing we know they've got fleets lined up right next door to Vland!
     Of course, the Zhos were slower to expand into the area than the 
Imperials feared, the two empires not coming into border-to-border contact
until the 6th century, but look what happened then.  Do you think that if
the 3I didn't have a strong presence in the area already that the Zhos 
wouldn't have continued to breeze right through Deneb and Corridor? Even 
though the Imperials get stuck patrolling the Corridor, it's still a much
better strategic position than letting the Zhos have it, or establishing it
as a Neutral Zone.
     It makes sense to me, and helps explain why the early Imperium would
have been interested in what was (at the time) a largely uninteresting and
very remote backwater region.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:43:24 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #499

Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> I was a little disappointed that none of the New Zealander lurkers 
> decloaked to comment. I can only assume that my impression of the
> social  acceptance of RPGs in NZ was correct as was my conclusion
> about female  participation in RPGs in NZ. 

[ObDeLurk]

	I think it's more a matter of the social group you play with than 
NZ gamers as a whole; the games I've played in the past have usually
included at least one female (who wasn't an SO, BTW), and the current
campaigns I play in are about 1/3rd female. Interestingly, my wife ran an
all-female campaign in intermediate school, and was introduced to gaming
by her father (!)

- --
Idiot/Savant			idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
Betray your friends; Crush your enemies; 
Control the world; Drink some coffee


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 04:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)

>Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said,
>
>Interesting theory, Glenn.  So, the D&D books come out, and 
>Fundamentalists are upset that their beliefs are treated as fiction.  But 
>they know they can't get the populace to rally around that particular 
>issue.

Actually, I'm suggesting that the Fundies don't know what their real
motivations are. I'm sure the fundies themselves are convinced D&D leads
directly to virgin's-blood drinking parties in public parks on Samhain. But
subconsciously they know that's utterly absurd; on some buried level they
must be aware that playing a game about demons and elves rather does
suggest disbelief, not belief, in such beings.

>Then some kids go nuts and think the world of D&D is real
[chop]

Ah, but have any real kids actually ever "gone nuts and taken D&D for
reality"? Personally, I've never seen a report of such a case in any
credible news media. Oh, I've heard countless urban legends, I've heard of
reports on sensational tabloid-TV shows, I've seen ads for really bad TV
movies-of-the-week "based on a true incident", I once *played the part* of
a psycho gamer geek in a friend's photo-comic, and while editing and
reviewing sf books and magazines I've been assaulted by stories with this
theme.... but an *actual* case of a kid going psychotic and trying to chop
up his mother with a broadsword? No, I've never come across such a story in
any media I would consider even half-way trustworthy.

Let's go back to 1980 or so. Even while the "Fundies Ban Satanist Game"
meme was first propagating through the mediascape, there was the first such
incident: a University of Michigan student who disappeared mysteriously,
leaving no clue of his whereabouts. He was said to be socially maladjusted
(read: a "geek") and known for running his D&D games down in the steam
tunnels beneath the UMich campus. [Someone please correct me if I've
mis-remembered which university it was.] The police and news media
immediately jumped to the conclusion that this weirdo had "taken his game
too far" and come to some terrible end in a hidden branch of the tunnel
system.

The story made instant international headlines. Then, weeks later, the
guy's body is found, hundreds of miles from the school. The police have
managed to peice together what really happened. A closeted homosexual, the
student had fallen in with some other gays who happened to be involved in
various criminal activities. Either he made a nuisance of himself, or they
decided to have some extreme fun at his expense, and eventually dumped his
body out in the country.

[PLEASE NOTE that this reconstruction could be just as much of a
fabrication as the "Deadly Game" theory, resulting from homophobic
attitudes on the part of police and the media. Who can say?]

But how was this reported in the media? "Gay Student Killed By Underworld
Contacts" perhaps? Heck no. Where's the hook? The media still couldn't let
go of that nifty "D&D KILLS GAMER" headline. Here's how it appeared in that
paragon of journalistic ethics, the London Free Press (for whom I am
ashamed to say I once worked as a freelance illustrator) in London,
Ontario: 
                  "The Game of Fantasy..."
[followed by quarter-page story on the UMich cultic underground
tunnelcrawling weirdo geeks and their twisted obsession with, ick, using
their creative imaginations...]
                  "...that Ended in Tragedy"
[follwed by a much longer story on the discovery that the game had nothing
to do with the student's death, which was actually the result of deviant
pervert drugdealing sickos with switchblades.]

Notice something? The second story blatantly contradicts its own headline!
The Game of Fantasy had nothing to do with this particular Ending in
Tragedy. Proving if nothing else that Free Press news editors don't bother
to read the stories in their own paper...

What particularly struck me about the incident is that the editors could
have used the headline to tar homosexuals as a group by linking the murder
to the victim's lifestyle, but instead they chose to tar gamers as a group
by falsely linking their hobby to a horrible slaying. Revealing, no?

Anyway, perhaps I've been totally out of the loop. D&D has become such a
vast, global phenomenon that I'm sure some twelve-year-old somewhere has
indeed gone haywire and wacked his little brother with a truncheon while
dressed in fake chainmail, screaming, "Die, hideous minion of Yog-Sothoth!
Die!. Statistically speaking, it had to happen, and perhaps I just wasn't
paying attention when it did.

But I still haven't seen any such story in any news source that I trust.
(Granted, such sources are few and far between...)

I'd be interested to hear of examples, but please don't "refute" me by
quoting things you heard on Oprah, okay folks? :)

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:59:21 +1300
Subject: Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!

Niko, I have run games in the past that involved gambling of different 
kinds but have always felt that a skill in Gambling was a little 
anomalous since gambling was supposed to be about luck. Also, different 
societies and worlds have different games and events on which they 
gamble. I was often unsure as to where the Gambling skill actually came 
into effect. Some players maintained that it was a combination of the 
character's ability to cheat, bluff, and assess odds. Other refs I've 
played under say it is purely a measure of the characters breadth of 
knowledge of the games and the language of gambling that gives he/she 
credibility when trying to get into a game or play the tables. 

Depending on which definition you go for, the skill could either have an 
impact on the outcome, or not. I usually allow some flexibility and go 
for the first definition if the character is on familliar ground and use 
the second definition if the character is moving in unfamiliar circles. 

A character with no gambling skill would probably have no chance of 
getting into a very lucrative but exotic, decadent and mysterious 
gambling cell on some alien world, but a character with gambling skill 
may get in but may fail to realise that s/he is gambling with their life 
until it is too late.

Put simply; It is unrealistic to expect that a character with good 
gambling skill is going to be able to always make a killing from 
gambling. Poker is not the only game in town.



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:19:56 +1300
Subject: Re: go for the bridge of the nose!

> Much has been discussed about to-hit possibilities under T4 rules, but
> what about lethality?  I understand that T4 is using CT's wound rules,
> but I'll blaspheme and say that GDW's T2k-based "house system" handled
> this better.  If CT/T4 combat represented the real world, war would be a
> rather like paintball games, as the lethality is _way_ too low.  >>
> 

I have never been satisfied with Traveller's recognition of weapon 
damage. I still try and use the 'On Target' rules. They are very lethal, 
perhaps too much so at times. The hit location role is often more nerve 
racking than the to-hit role for players under the 'On Target' system. 
Players also always make sure their characters never forget their kevlar 
helmets.

BTW have you ever been hit in the head with a paintball at point blank 
range? I get your point though.



------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:52:58 +1000
Subject: USP - Caravan and Stagecoach (long)

Here is the USP for the Caravan Multi-Purpose Starship, and 3 variations 
on the Stagecoach Modular System.
- ---------------------------

Caravan MPS

Tons 500       Volume 469          Cost  204
Crew 16        Passengers H/m 1         Passengers L 0
Cargo 31.6     Controls TL12 Civ Bridge Tech Level TL12

09 Size Rating                03 Jump
04 Fire Control rating        04 G Rating / Thruster
02 Civ Laser TL12 2,0,0,0     04 Power Plant
01 Missile (5)                150 Fuel rating / Scoop /Refine
                              01 Sandcaster
                              10 A  04 J 16 J  Sensor rating

               20 Armour      16 Structure

External grapple for 50tn Modular Cutter
Engeneer Space for 20 Engeneers
Lab Space and Medical Sick bay included and a 50tn grapple

If mounted with Stagecoach Modular System, the following change
 
Tons 1000                   Volume 938
10  Size rating          01 Jump
                         02 G rating / Thruster

may mount 2 Stagecoaches , with the following changes

Tons 1500              Volume  1408
10 Size rating      00 Jump
                    01 G rating / Thruster

Weapons , crews and passengers will change as per different stagecoach 
system

- ------------------------------------
The Caravan is a a multi purpose spacecraft, designed for many different 
roles. 

1. Mobile Construction Platform, 

First and foremost the Caravan is designed to allow construction in 
either orbit and planetary sites. Its 2 lasers are actually designed to 
allow escavations, demolitions and basic teraforming (drilling into the 
planetary crust), as well as smelting ores. Its engeneering, labs and 
vehical workshops are optamised for this task, but with the best TL12 
equipmet installed, its capabillity are only limited by imagination (and 
budget).

2. Tugs

The Caravan is also designed to allow the connection of 1 or 2 Stagecoach 
Modular systems. While the stagecoach has its own stationkeeping drives 
and is capable of limited flight (and planetary landings), it needs 
something like the Caravan to jump into other systems. This makes the 
Caravan extreamly attractive as it allows multable configerations of the 
same craft, at a lot less cost.

3. Q-ship

While not designed as a Q-ship, in its Battle-wagon configeration (with 
the Jeep carrier Stagecoach modual), its 12 fighters and 2 missiles, 
added with State of the art sensors, makes this a powerfull anti-piracy 
unit. It is vunerable in fleet actions, but it can be configured as a 
tender ship quite easily, with its engeneering space allowing ship repairs.

- -----------------------------



Stagecoach Modular System - Cargo configition

Tons 500            Volume 469.3                  Cost 108.06
Crew 9              Passengers h/m 0              Passengers 0
Cargo 331.7         Controls Std Civ - Bridge     Tech Level 12

08 Size rating                00 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating        01 G rating - HEPLAR
02 Civilian Laser 2,0,0,0     03 Power Plant rating    
01 Missile (5)                22.3 Fuel rating , Scoop
                              01 Sand caster
                              A1  P3  J0 Sensor rating
               
               20 Armour 16 Structure
Has grapple for 50tn craft


Stagecoach Modular Sytem - Passenger

Tons 500            Volume 469.3                  Cost 118.74
Crew 16             Passengers h/m 44             Passengers 20
Cargo 153.7         Controls Std Civ - Bridge     Tech Level 12

08 Size rating                00 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating        01 G rating - HEPLAR
02 Civilian Laser 2,0,0,0     03 Power Plant rating    
01 Missile (5)                22.3 Fuel rating , Scoop
                              01 Sand caster
                              A1  P3  J0 Sensor rating
Has sickbay included. as well as a grapple for a 50tn craft
               
               20 Armour 16 Structure

Stagecoach Modular System - Jeep Carrier (Battlewagon)

Tons 500            Volume 469.3                  Cost 332.98
Crew 32             Passengers h/m 0              Passengers 0
Cargo 34.0          Controls Std Civ - Bridge     Tech Level 12

08 Size rating                00 Jump Rating
04 Fire Control Rating        01 G rating - HEPLAR
02 Civilian Laser 2,0,0,0     03 Power Plant rating    
01 Missile (5)                22.3 Fuel rating , Scoop
                              01 Sand caster
                              A10  P4  J10  Sensor rating
               
               20 Armour 16 Structure
12 Fighters included - minimal hanger , vehical shop included
has Civilian Sensors as backup..
Has sick bay included, as well as grapples for a 50tn craft


The Stagecoach is the ultimate in configerable , modualr hulls , that can 
be used for a multitude of roles. 

1. As part of the Caravan MPS system
2. Temorary installations for ground and space with its own 
stationkeeping drive)
3. Cargo landers 
4. Emergency accomadation (on ground and in space)


For example, you need to beef up the accomadation on your spacestation, 
just add a Passenger modual! You need an impromptue base to repress some 
pirates, just place a Jeep carrier modual in a defendable place, added 
with a passenger modual to house more support staff and troops!

While it has fuel for 20 hours, and 1 year for its powerplant, it can run 
its powerplant for 5 years without a top up (as long as consumables are 
supplied). 

Each Stagecoach has mounting space for a 50tn modular cutter.

------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 07:11:27 -0400
Subject: More Corrections

I came across this error while rolling up a Naval/Noble PC for Allen
Shock's Traveller game at Ann Arbor's U-Con (all in the area should
attend!)

pg. 20 under Flight School/Academic Skills: "A character gets two skills
from the Academic skills table."  

pg. 28 Flight School Table/Academic skills: "roll one per year".

I'd say the text, not the table, is correct.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 06:55:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Another Animal Bug

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Rob Prior said:
> >While looking for the base animal hit number (and not finding it), I noticed
> >another bug in the animal encounter table system.
> >
> >On page 142, under Animal Characteristics, it states that the a score of A7
> >means that the animal attacks on a roll of 7 or less.  This is opposite the
> >CT system, in which the number had to be equalled or exceeded.

Rob -
Strangely, I just looked it up, and Animal Characteristics (p 144) states 
that the roll is X+, not X-.  But I must be missing something.  I tried p 
142 as you suggested, and I couldn't find what you were referring to.  
Can you give me more of a hint as to where the rule you reference is stated?


> I noticed that many of the die rolls required in T4 are flip-flopped from CT, 
> since I haven't really studied the rules of MT or TNE, I dunno if this trend 
> started in those games or not.  Can anybody explain the reasoning behind doing 
> this?  

Boyd -
I would think they'd want all the rolls to be consistent.  Since, in the 
task system, it is required that you roll X or less, all target numbers 
within the game should follow the same rule.  Less confusion.

Sadly, IG kept some X+ and some X-.  Hopefully, this will be fixed in the 
next version of T4.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:57:22 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Unexplored worlds in Year 0.

Allen writes:
>        In my campaign, the characters joined the Scouts, who offered to buy
>their ship when they were about to lose it to the bank, and to give it to
>them at the end of their four-year hitch. Their job is to explore all those
>unexplored worlds in the Core Subsector. (I am accepting the IG assertion
>that the Imperium consists of about 20 worlds in Year 0. I think it was DGP
>that said it was a whole sector-I'd have to check the library data from CT
>on that. Well, now it ISN'T a whole sector. That's better for my campaign
>anyway.)

The problem with the unexplored worlds that close to Sylea is not the size
of the Imperium in Year 0, but that the Sylean Federation is 650 years old
(propably Sylea never did loose jump capacity at all; anyway, they've had
jump ships for 650 years at least). The notion that at least the physical
characteristics of worlds that close to Sylea would be unknown, simply trips 
my "suspension-of-disbelief" curcuit breakers. Its quite possible that some
of them would not have been visited in a while, but being completely unknown? 
No way!



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:43:40 -0400
Subject: Re: RED ZONE: An adventure -Reply

Alan Shock wrote:
> if anyone messes with the machinery, it will awaken. (If any of you
remember
> the adventure "Demon Dark" in CHALLENGE 58 by Michael R. Mikesh,
you'll know
> what this is...)
> 

>Remember something that caused 90% casualties among my crew?
>You betcha...

Can somebody enlighten those of us who don't have Challenge 58?

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: mark james wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:13:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Station Gamma nostalgia

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM wrote:

> From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:04:58 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...
> 
>      One of my favorite old Traveller adventures has always been Adventure 2,
> "Research Station Gamma," which (along with "Shadows") established the Mystery
> of the Ancients that was carried through Adv 3 & 12.  However, Iwouldn't
wow I've just realised that was the first roleplaying adventure I played 
EVER. I'd messed around with the Judge Dredd RPG (based on the comics) 
but Gamma was the first one I really played. I think we spent about 7 or 
8 months once a week on and off (sometimes really "off") playing that a 
lunch times.Our GM played down the Ancients stuff, or we were too dumb to 
find out about it.We eventually saved the Chripers and blew the 
station to hell. Those were the days :-)
#nostalgia trip off#
Oh and on the subject of Christians and RPG's, has anyone reached the D 
and D level where your GM starts to teach REAL spells yet :-)

"You can't love here this is hell!"
				  The Books Of Magic
Mark Wilkin

 

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:22:40 -0400
Subject: Re:(assorted)

Loren Wiseman writes:

>The stock that was sold off consisted of GDW products only. 
>GDW had no major quantities of DGP material.

<snip>

   Pretty much what I figured.  My point was that though the collector's
among us might have most/all of DGP's Traveller materials, that's no
guarantee that the people at IG have it, or even know of its existence.  So
who ended up with GDW's library of Traveller reference copies?

>> Chances are if any are still around, they are still in Frank's
>>possession.
>
>'Fraid not. Frank has reference copies (I think), but he doesn't 
>have cartons of DGP stuff sitting in his living room (neither do I 
>or Marc, for that matter).

   So the answer is, "no El Dorado".  I hadn't figured that he would have
more than a few copies of each anyway.

>I'll have to admit I never saw myself as part of a "regime." I hope
>that nothing pejoritive is intended by the term?

   Nothing pejoritive at all.  It is useful sometimes to break things down by
who was in charge rather than by game system, since things tend to overlap.
 Also, repeatedly typing "TNE era" gets boring.  :-)

>Actually, it was Dave's impression and mine that GDW had the 
>right to freely reference and use any DGP copyrighted materials 
>in GDW products...not that GDW owned the copyrights. At least 
>that was the case the last time we discussed the matter...Ghod, 
>seems like so long ago.

   You're probably right.  Dave left *me* with the impression that since DGP
didn't exist anymore, the stuff was GDW's, but he may not have meant that in
the truly legal sense.  

   At any rate, Roger Sanger bought the DGP name last year.  Roger planned to
re-release the old DGP material and even talked about a CD-ROM product.
 Unfortunately, nothing came of it.  Later, he had some discussions with IG
about the possibilities of producing some Traveller material, then decided to
drop that in favor of developing some other projects (among them finishing
development of the game _A.I._, which DGP had been working on prior to
folding up).  The last post he made to the History of the Imperium Working
Group (HIWG) mailing list was back in the early spring.  I haven't heard from
him since.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #501
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 502

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply
         2. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
         3. Re: social-acceptance
         4. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply
         5. Re: Cleon & The marches
         6. Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496 -Reply
         8. Warped Core maps...
         9. My hobbies...
        10. Eamon Watters
        11. A sudden urge
        12. Respect...
        13. Re: My hobbies...
        14. Playing to win
        15. Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        16. Re: Re: Another Animal Bug
        17. Re: Typos
        18. T4 is for newbies
        19. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
        20. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs 
        21. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:24:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply

>In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not
>_physically  safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs, practice alternative
>spirituality or are  otherwise "wierd." The Friendly Local Game Store
>has been _picketed_ by the local Fundie  Christians as a source of
>those _evil_, devil-games.

That's the problem with fundamentalist Christians. They concentrate on
those things which are not central to their faith. I am a Christian, but not a
fundamentalist (although I will say that I believe in the fundamentals,
theologically speaking). It's not important to me whether Christians go
watch rated R movies, play role-playing games, drink alcohol, or play
cards. What is important is that Christians filter the stuff in those
activities through their worldview, so they can put the proper labels on
things. For example: "You know, that nude scene really didn't add
anything to the movie. " or "I enjoy playing cards, but I'm losing my shirt,
so I better stop." or "I'm feeling a buzz, maybe I shouldn't have another
drink." or finally (to stay on-topic) "My character is conjuring up a demon
from hell to fight his battles. There's definitely something, say, *satanic*
about that." That's one of the reasons I stopped playing D&D years ago,
before I was a Christian in the first place. It made me uncomfortable. And
that's one of the great things about Traveller: it's got none of that
baggage to drag people down. I think more of a variety of people who
believe a variety of things can play Traveller than can play D&D.

Fundamentalist Christians blow things way out of proportion, and give
Christianity in general a bad name because of it. I just wanted to defend
my religion, and uphold a hobby I love at the same time. 

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:39:55 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> As for the missing table (and really there is only 1 of any
> consequence), we knew about this back in July, when Guy Garnett
> realized it had not been forwarded to them with the rest of the stuff
> for QSDS right before the deadline...  It should have come as no shock to
> anybody on this list...

First of all, I resent you saying I spewed anything.
I am sick of all game companies having ubiquitous errors, and I am sick of people 
justifying it
Next, I guess I shouldn't be shocked then when this never improves either?
It never did for GDW

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:52:34 +0000
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

Simon John Harding wrote:
> > The usual Stage One response. My parents think this hobby is some kind of evil
> > mind-control cult, and I'm 37.
 
> That is hardcore. I have the greatest respect for you sticking with it
> under that kind of pressure.

> > In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not _physically
> > safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs, practice alternative spirituality or are
> > otherwise "wierd." The Friendly Local Game Store has been _picketed_ by the local Fundie Christians as a source of those _evil_, devil-games.

> Rich, that is truely incredible. The closest thing to that kind of
> reaction came from the mother of a good friend of mine when he was
> about 16. She banned him from coming to our gaming club and confiscated
> his books. He would still find a way of playing though.
> 
> Rich, I expect the situation is agrevated in your community by the
> current trends in packaging design for RPGs.

I experienced some of the same. It is amazing how intolerant of fun some people can be
I still remember the old arguments (does monopoly make me a greedy capitalist? no? 
Then how does pretending to be a wizard make me a witch?) I had a situation where the 
sponsoring teacher became a fundamentalist christian over one summer (in high school)
 and when we got back in September we no longer had a games club. He felt that we 
were dealing in something very wrong (luckily we found another teacher who liked 
provoking loonies like that and we were back in business)
Try being an atheist on top of that (I had the Christian Fellowship after the whole games 
club because I was a member and that "proved" it was bad)

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:47:16 -0400
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply

Boyd said:

> RPGs, show them that the image  they have is different from reality. 
>My previous church had a saying: "The  church has always persecuted
>two groups of people: those who don't believe,  and those who really
>do..."  In other words: not all fundamentalists are  Christians and not all
>Christians are fundamentalists.  'Nuff said about  that.)

Well said! And to add some shameless advertising to the mix:

For all those interested, Christians and non-Christians, there is a
Christian role-playing game out there that was almost killed by these
same fundamentalists. Several people (including me) are trying to revive
it, because there are still 8,000 copies of it sitting in the warehouse of a
non-profit organization, and it really is a great game. You can download
an electronic copy of the game from ftp://earth.usa.net/users/dragonraid.
There's a brochure on the game there and a price list as well. The
brochure talks about what caused the company who originally produced
the game to go bankrupt. 

There's also a mailing list: Send email message with "SUBSCRIBE
dragonraid" to listserv@associate.com. There's not too much traffic
now, so your box won't become inundated like it does with this list :) If
you want to actually get a feel for the game (including having an
automatically perl-generated Character), you can go to 
http://www.associate.com/Innovative/DragonRaid/index.html and check it
out. 

Ok, shameless advertising is over. Sorry for the wasted bandwidth, but I
don't have the funds to put those nice graphical advertising banners all
over web pages!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:57:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

In addition, maybe some people knew about the Darrians (Daryen) and their incredible 
tech level and just had to get their first (whether or not they are dead, if you know there 
are TL G artifacts, it at least gives you something to work with)

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 10:03:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)

Glenn Grant wrote: 
> What particularly struck me about the incident is that the editors could
> have used the headline to tar homosexuals as a group by linking the murder
> to the victim's lifestyle, but instead they chose to tar gamers as a group
> by falsely linking their hobby to a horrible slaying. Revealing, no?

Homesexuals as agroup are large enough to defend themselves

> But I still haven't seen any such story in any news source that I trust.
> (Granted, such sources are few and far between...)
> I'd be interested to hear of examples, but please don't "refute" me by
> quoting things you heard on Oprah, okay folks? :)

Look under Urban Legends for more stories about gamers, satanist conspiracies and 
heavy metal suicide pacts

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 10:05:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496 -Reply

Joe Walsh said:

>Interesting theory, Glenn.  So, the D&D books come out, and 
>Fundamentalists are upset that their beliefs are treated as fiction.  But 
>they know they can't get the populace to rally around that particular 
>issue.  Then some kids go nuts and think the world of D&D is real -
>which  strangely enough vindicates the view of the Fundamentalists,
>vis a vis  the reality of demons and whatnot.  Finally, the
>Fundamentalists seize  this opportunity to give D&D a bad reputation,
>and claim that their  problem with the game is that it promotes satanism,
>and they hold these  nuts up as examples of the effect these occult
>powers can have on  unrighteous mortals.

>Hmmm.  It's just twisted enough to be true. :)

This whole discussion has gone way off topic, but I'd like to add one
quotation (paraphrased, since I'm at work and don't have access to my
home library) from noted literary scholar C.S. Lewis: 

"There are two dangers regarding devils and demons. One is to
disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, but have an
unhealthy interest in them." --The Screwtape Letters

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:12:14 +0100
Subject: Warped Core maps...

There's been a lot of talk about the 'errors' in the IG Core worlds map.
Could someone perhaps work out if any of the worlds could have moved during
the Long Night or even the 1100 years from the start to the 'CT' period of
the Third Imperium?

Especially given that the hex maps are known to be approximations to the
jump space vectors between planets rather than representing their actual
positions in space, and requiring compression of the 'vertical' galactic
plane into 2D?

For those who don't like MM's new map, could these factors be used to
explain the differences? I know it's not what MM intended...

Someone with a space background please comment!

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:28:22 +0100
Subject: My hobbies...

>Rich Ostorero said:
>>> So I stick to talking about my
>>> other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
>>> always better :-)

Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" response
(and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
more respect...

Andy :-)


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:45:26 -0500
Subject: Eamon Watters

Hey!!!!

Eamon Watters, send me mail, I think I wrote you email address down wrong,
and I have the info on the books you were interested in.

Sorry for the waste of Bandwidth.


------------------------------

From: "The Phoenix" <DANIWALL@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:56:47 MST
Subject: A sudden urge

Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone 
could possibly need.  42.

(sorry, I had a sudden urge to do that.  If anyone hates me now feel 
free to say so, but before you get too mad, I can contribute many 
things better than this.  Well, at least some people think so...) :-)

"I'm not afraid."
"You will be.  You will be." - Luke and Yoda
42 - the answer
The Phoenix
daniwall@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 15:50:22 +0100
Subject: Respect...

I forgot to add to my previous mail, that I DO tell people I play RPGs, but
after emphasising my black belt in karate. It seems to make them remarkably
more open-minded about what I'm saying!

Andy :-)

P.S. Then I tell them about the satanistic rites we perform in our AD&D games...
(ducks thrown stuff) Only kidding!!!! :-)


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 07 Oct 96 11:01:13 EDT
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

- --- Andywrote:
Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" response
(and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
more respect...
- --- end of quoted material ---
Yeah, and so does the "I'm an EMT" line so popular amongst many gamera I seem
to be running across....

Like hell. 

Let's face it; if people don't get games, don't bother them and don't let them
bother you.  If flip burgers or just redesigned the Energia Booster really
makes zero differnce. 
<snrf. Grouch mode off>

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 10:59:14 GMT
Subject: Playing to win

>Although, the author gave an anecdote from Gen-Con of a"twelve-year-old 
>on a crying jag because someone twice his age felt the need to utterly 
>crush him during a Magic tournament."  But this brings up a question of 
>whether 12-year-olds should be playing in the same tournament as adults 
>- - are the adults to purposefully lose so the little guys don't cry?

When I play a competitive game, I play to win, and expect my opponent to do
me the same courtesy.  After all, competition is part of the game.  I
regularly get pasted at Chinese chess by my students, but as long as they
don't gloat and explain (after the game) what I did wrong/they did right I
don't mind.

Hm.  I think that's the key phrase back there: "as long as they don't gloat".
 Sort of goes along with adult behaviour patterns.  

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 11:07:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

 >yet many think the word "fundamentalist" is interchangeable with the word
Christian.

Probably because that's how the very vocal fundamentalist Christians use it. 
I went to a fundamentalist Baptist church for a while (because that's where
my fiancee went) and they were very agressive in calling everyone who went to
a different church "non-Christian".  

To drag this back to a Traveller perspective, I've used this type of
word-shift to good effect in many adventures.  Check out the novel "The Man
Who Pulled Down the Sky" by John Barnes for some really neat ideas on
incorporating social science into a Traveller game.  In addition to being a
really good read, it's got one of the best explanations of semiotics I've
seen (including the 'drift of the signified', which is what happens when a
word's meaning shifts with time or circumstance).

Oh, and for the record, I'm no longer attending the Baptist church.  I'm now
Warden at an Anglican church with a priest who has incorporated elements of
traditional Chinese beliefs into his orthodox Anglicanism.  A bit odd, but
definately an accepting place.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 11:14:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Another Animal Bug

>I noticed that many of the die rolls required in T4 are flip-flopped from CT,

>since I haven't really studied the rules of MT or TNE, I dunno if this trend

>started in those games or not.  Can anybody explain the reasoning behind
doing 
>this?  

Well, in CT/MT you tried to roll over a target number.  In TNE/T4 you try to
roll under the target number.  So it makes sense for things to be consistent
within the gaming system by flipping a lot of the old rules.

The reason you roll low now is that instead of task difficulty setting the
target number (and your skills modifying it) the task difficult changes the
number of dice you roll, while your sklls set the target number.  Dunno if I
like it yet - I'll have to game with it a couple of times first.  But I like
the TNE system...

Although I _am_ beginning to think that IG should give me a free corrected
reprint of T4, especially as I paid them in May (via postal order, before
they could take VISA) and I _still_ haven't received my hardback :-(


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 11:20:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Typos

>Its hardly IG's exclusive province to put out stuff with typos...

True.  The software licensed by the Ontario Ministry of Education for
province-wide usage has two glaring typos right in the license statement!  Of
course, our Minister of Education _did_ drop out of grade 11.



------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 11:27:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: T4 is for newbies

Hi.

Joe Walsh wrote:

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:22:08 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)

>On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

>> See above.  The problem with rulebook the way it is now is, that it might 
>> be somewhat useful for people running their own campaign backgrounds.  
[...]

>things.  Right now, IG really doesn't have a product that is useful to 
>new gamers and those unfamiliar with Traveller.  They won't have that 
>until all of this year's supplements are out, and the revised T4 is 
>available.  

Whoa! I gotta disagree with Joe and Thomas on this point. Right now, IG
does not have a product that is critically useful to OLD gamers and
those FAMILIAR with Traveller. T4 was designed with the new player in
mind.

T4 is every bit as good, and quite a bit better, than the original 3
little books that launched CT ever were. T4 is a complete game; only
those who already have campaigns where PGMP's are used are going to miss
the lack of PGMP's in T4. Only those already who have campaigns where
factor T meson guns are used are going to miss their lack in T4. In
other words, only old timers like us are going to feel that T4 is
incomplete. That's only because we already know what's to come.

I played Trav without gauss rifles, RAM auto GL guns, and factor T meson
guns for a long time --- I just used the 3 little black books. And it
was a good game, a complete game. I never felt like I didn't have enough
resources to run a campaign.

T4 has everything the original CT had (except for easy and flexible ship
design rules) Plus a little bit of campaign information that the 3LBB's
didn't: like explanations of what the Imperium is, what the various careers
actually do, some alien races, some example adventures, etc, etc.

I think its a fantastic resource for new players. Finally, I have a book
that I can hand an interested new potential player who asks me, "What is
Traveller?" "This, this is Traveller," I can reply, as I give him a copy
of T4, which can sell itself. And that's a heck of alot better than "You
see those boxes and boxes of old, out-of-print, hard-to-read, technical
manuals? That's Traveller." Let's face it, the kind of Traveller we know and
love is not the kind of Traveller that a newbie can begin to know and
love without a lot of technical assistance from an old fart, and a lot
of time to "aquire the taste."

IG, you've got a great new product on your hands.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:28:12 -0500
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Hey, just here to add my .02 gal of fuel to the fire.

I have been reading Boyd, Richard, John, and others converse about the
Fundamentalists and their problems with RPG's.  Well, I think I know at
least part of the troubel, and it has been waltzed all around here on the
list in the past few days.

To start, let me pull out my label and wear it proudly.  I am a Fundamental
Baptist.  I believe God exists, I believe that he created the world in 6
days, including man, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and I believe that
Jesus became a man, lived, died, rose from the grave, and will one day
return.  I say all of that to somewhat define the label I wear.  This
mailing list is not the place to debate the ideas above, I only bring them
up to define my background and frame of reference.

Now, after having said what I said above, some of you, no doubt, have
labeled me as a person who does not think for himself, and takes what he is
told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that to a
couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you want to speak
up, now would be a good time :), but my point is simply that by classing
myself as a Fundamentalist, I am automatically perceived to be a certain
type of person, and believe a certain way.  The same is true of the
"Christian Community's" view of RPG's.

I think it was Glenn who came up with the theory about the named demons and
devils being listed with faries and elves and such being perceived as
Blasphemy by religous folk.  I thin Glenn is very right, but only for a
portion of the religous community.  I think the problem is a lack of
understanding about the normal RPGer in the Christian Community and the lack
of understanding of the normal Christian in the RPG community.  Which of the
RPGer's of which of the Christians get the press?  The normal ones, or the
ones that exist on the fringe and carry out their beliefs or hobby (as the
case may be) to the extreme?  Being a member of both communities, I can tell
you that it is not the normal ones.

Boiling this down is kinda tough, but I think the main problem is a lack of
an accurate perception by both groups of the other.  I don't know how much
can be done to "fix" this situation, though.  I don't know how many of you
would sit down long enough to let me clear up the misconceptions of
Christianity.  I don't think this would happen much for 2 reasons:

     1. Finding all the misconceptions is not easy, many of them are so old,
that they seem as fact to the one that doesn't understand.
     2. Many of you probably don't care enough about religion to sit and
listen to the explanations.  This is not a flame or insult.  It is the same
thing as me not wanting Leonard or one of the other Engineering types to
explain the details of quantum physics to me, I just am not that interested.

These same two reasons are true of those in the religous community about
RPG's.  That is, their misconceptions are so deeply rooted that finding them
all would be difficult, and they really don't care that much about Role
Playing to learn what those misconceptions are.  The problem arises when
someone, out of ignorance or based on these misconceptions, speaks out
against the other group.  It is then that attitudes are charged up and
people get defensive rather than calmly explaining what they misunderstand.

Having said all of this, from my experience, the main problem
(misconception) that most religous groups have with RPG's is the fact that
someone plays God (the GM).  While this is true in a sense, we, as RPGer's
see the difference, but they, as religous, don't.  Why don't they see the
difference?  many different reasons, but they all boil down to one simple
one, they don't want to.

Well, now that I've added my fuel to the fires, I think I'm done ranting and
raving, I will turn the soapbox over to whoever else wants a turn. :)


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 11:39:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs 

Just for a bit of social history -- it seems there are always people 
who are deeply suspicious of new forms of entertainment, and these 
people are (not surprisingly) often the highly respectable type for 
whom life is a matter of discharging one's duty properly.  Such 
people don't put a lot of value on fun, and are often members of 
culturally conservative groups.

In the late 19th century, folk like these were very suspicious of 
novels and fiction in general because it was "lies."  They have been 
suspicious of the theater and, by extention, the movies, forever, 
because the kind of people who work in those industries are their 
psychological opposites.

If you're a comic-book reader or collector, you may have already known
that comics in the '50s and '60s were inveighed against and adopted 
a self-protective code of self-censorship in response, in very much 
the same way RPGs suffer now.  Video games have the same problem.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:44:09 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

On  7 Oct 96 at 9:39, Cmdr Hold'Em doth speak:

> First of all, I resent you saying I spewed anything.

Jeez, touchy aren't we...  Have a sense of humor...  :-)

> I am sick of all game companies having ubiquitous errors, and I am
> sick of people justifying it Next, I guess I shouldn't be shocked

I'm sick of being bashed by people just because I defend something 
they don't agree with.  Deal with it...  

> then when this never improves either? It never did for GDW

How can we determine whether it will never improve.  IG has released 
exactly ONE book.  Starships, and the rest could be worse, or they 
could be better...  If these books are worse, then IG will probably die a short 
painless death.  If they're better, IG will have learned from their 
early mistakes and improved...  If they're the same, IG will probably 
survive...because I didn't think it to be too bad an effort...

I agree.  I wish it had been cleaner.  In light of the haste with 
which it was put together, I'm not surprised.  Actually, I'm 
pleasantly surprised its not worse.  Guess I don't look at it as a total 
disaster.  I can work around typos, and other than the Jump table, 
its pretty clean overall...

My assertion still stands.  Guy and the good folks at GDW-Beta designed 
QSDS (and did a great job IMO) and just plain forgot to send the J-Drive 
table to IG along with the rest of the submission, and neither party 
realized it until after the book had gone to the printers...  Amongst 
16 pages of tables, it'd be real easy to overlook 1, and that's 
probably what happened.  Again I state that this should have been no real 
surprise to the members of this list, at least unless you joined VERY recently...  

Currently, I use the MT system.  After the errata, and a few 
homebrewed patches, its been my game system of choice ever since it 
came out...  Compared to MT, T4 is error-free...  I guess I'm not 
going to have a heart attack because a J-Drive table is missing, and 
the rest of the stuff is so easy to fix that I'm not worried about 
it...

To me, the glass is half full.  Somebody is producing Traveller stuff 
again, and my favorite RPG is again being supported.  Yes, IG 
definitely has their warts, but so did GDW, and so does TSR, WW, GW, 
FASA, and just about everybody else out there...  We are definitely 
better off having IG whose main focus is Traveller putting out the 
game, than having a SJG putting out Traveller books "when they get 
around to it."

I do hope they learn from the mistake, and improve, and time will 
tell whether it happens or not...  Let's see what happens, that's the 
best I can say...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #502
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 503

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 newbies rant
         2. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.
         3. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs 
         4. Re: Dave's TNE
         5. Blasphemy, Time, and DNA -Reply
         6. Cleon and the Marches
         7. Re: Playing to win
         8. Re: Fossils and Time Travel 
         9. Re: Time travel 
        10. A sudden urge -Reply
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #502
        12. Unsolved mysteries...
        13. Cleon and the Marches
        14. Social Acceptance
        15. Auction Update 3
        16. RPG's and Religion (sorta long)
        17. IG's mistakes
        18. Mu U-CON game
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 11:45:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: T4 newbies rant

Hi.

I just re-read the post I just sent in, where I took issue with Joe
Walsh and Thomas Biskup for saying that T4 wasn't really made with the
new player in mind.

My message came of as a little rantish. I want to apologize to Joe and
Thomas for sounding more hot-headed than I had a right to. (I guess this
subject is a little closer to my heart than I would have thought. 8^)

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:54:28 -0800
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.

On  4 Oct 96 at 13:42, Paul Walker spewed:

> Hey Stu, didn't she forget Beer?  :)

Yup...  Microbrewed beer, and single-malt Scotch whiskey, to be 
precise...  :-)

Other than that, it sounds like I got my priorities straight, eh?

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 07 Oct 96 12:02:46 EDT
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs 

interesting seque potential into the Gratuitous Buxum Babe thread...;->

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:03:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Dave's TNE

Boyd Schneider writes:

>David J. Golden said:
>>        I actually managed to explain it to my satisfaction as an 
>>engineer and computer science grad student; I'm probably one 
>>of the three people in the world who wound up (eventually) liking 
>>the TNE setting...

   Actually, my survey showed that over half of Traveller players on TML used
the TNE game mechanics.  Fewer used the setting material, but it was/is (if
you include _Children of Earth_) a bit more popular than *that*.

>Here is an illustration of my viewpoint, and I am sure that most 
>people would share it when it comes to their likes/dislikes of 
>various Traveller versions.
>
>I like spaghetti.  It is my favorite food, a well made plate of spaghetti 
>can drive my saliva glands into a state of sheer ecstacy...    but...
>
>I like it the way my *dad* makes it.  Anything else is pasta blasphemy!  

<snip>

   Interesting analogy.  But what it also says is that all of us will *never*
agree on how to play the game above the gaming group level.  This has some
implications with regard to how any present or future producer of Traveller
material should approach the current customer base.  It would appear that it
is impossible to cater to all of us, beyond trying to maintain a consistent
storyline.

Joe Walsh writes:

>I guess the goal for IG should be to produce a version 
>of Traveller that is palatable to the majority of Traveller 
>players (and prospective Traveller players - aye, there's 
>the tricky part), rather than pandering to any of us here 
>online.

   Actually the concentration should be on new players, and I believe that it
is.  From the moment I opened the new T4 manual I saw a game that isn't being
produced for you or me--it is being produced for those who have never played
Traveller before.  As Boyd said, we like things how we like them.  IG knows
that long time Traveller players will accept the new things that we like, and
will reject those things we don't.  If they are lucky, some of us will
totally embrace T4--but they also know that most of us will continue to use
TNE, etc.

>I hear some of you gasping at this blasphemy, but you 
>have to admit that we're a pretty small part of the /current/ 
>Traveller market - let alone the /future/ Traveller market (if it 
>gets the success it deserves).  

   Seen any _Dragon_ issues devoted to Traveller lately (or even one
article)?  Many things brought GDW down, but higher than projected sales was
not one of them.  No, we Traveller players are a small group all right (I
prefer the term "elite"), and we are getting a little bit more "elite" with
each passing year.  I'm doing my part to reverse this trend, and so is IG.

>I've liked Marc Miller's vision of Traveller from the first time I 
>encountered CT.  I'm willing to give up my own personal vision 
>of Traveller as far as IG-published product goes, in favor of his 
>vision.  

   As far as IG-published materials are concerned, they should market what
sells--whatever that may be--even if it includes ideas and concepts that have
never been a part of Traveller before.  By all means we should still continue
to give them our input in the form of suggestions and constructive criticism,
but let's remember who owns the copyright....

>After all, I can meld T4 to whatever I desire in a game.

   Or for that matter, continue to use CT or MT, or TNE and take a few bits
and pieces (or even large chunks) from T4 and use them for your home
campaigns.  T4's commerical viability no longer depends upon keeping the
existing fan base happy with regard to storyline or game mechanics--it
depends on new customers.  We might not like that fact, but a fact it is.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:11:00 -0400
Subject: Blasphemy, Time, and DNA -Reply

 Armand Suarez said:

>Hmm. Talking about religion is a loaded topic, and it is very difficult to 
>know what terms to avoid.  "Blasphemy" is a term that will not be
>accepted  by the religious unless it is uttered by a religious authority. 
>However, I  would object to the use of "ignorant" to describe a person
>who has a  differing opinion about spiritual, mystical, or mythical beings.
> Objectively speaking, the existence of such things cannot be verified 
>scientifically and so I cannot consider their existence to be fact. 

That statement makes no sense. Science is a tool; you're using it as a
religion, using it as the defining source for your beliefs. Science can't
enter philosophical / religious realms, because it isn't equipped to do so.
It's like trying to use a hammer to tighten a nut. Can science prove the
existence of love? Can it prove the existence of friendship? Hate?
Ideas? No, but we all know they exist. 

As an athiest, you may want to check out
http://www.cleaf.com/~covenant. That's the web site for Southern
California Center for Christian Studies. They sell a tape with a debate
between Greg Bahnsen, probably the 20th Century's formost Christian
apologist (he died last November) and Gordon Stein, a reknowned
athiest. 

Any other discussions on this topic should probably be done privately.
You can send me mail at either of the two addresses below.

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:13:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cleon and the Marches

Hi.

>From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 00:17:59 -0400
>Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

>> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

>First let me say that I'm glad someone out there is at least 
>reading my little rants. :)

It's always a pleasure to read your rants, Ethan. We share common
interests and a different mindsets; nothing can be more certain of
generating interesting ideas. 8^)

>Enough about 500. By 50, when Cleon I's reign was almost at its end,
>where were the _real_ 3I borders I wonder? Hm, now that I look at my
>maps,
>the Marches are past Vland, going from Core... Vland I understand, but
>why
>keep going? Maybe it's that first contact with Zhos in 50... hmmmm...
>love at first sight?

I'm tellin' ya man, it was those big, juicy, red-zone-able, Ancient sites
just sittin' out there, callin' to him...

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:32:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Playing to win

On 7 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >Although, the author gave an anecdote from Gen-Con of a"twelve-year-old 
> >on a crying jag because someone twice his age felt the need to utterly 
> >crush him during a Magic tournament."  But this brings up a question of 
> >whether 12-year-olds should be playing in the same tournament as adults 
> >- - are the adults to purposefully lose so the little guys don't cry?
> 
> When I play a competitive game, I play to win, and expect my opponent to do
> me the same courtesy.  After all, competition is part of the game.  I

Ok, If you go to Gen Con and enter a tournament, expect no quarter.  But
if I'm playing with my 13 year old nephew, I'm not going to pop out my
most deadly combination the first time we play, and I'm going to be lax
about letting him "take back" a play.  We are there to enjoy ourselves,
which isn't to say that I won't hesitate to build "good loser" and "good
winer" skills.

Likewise in (Obligatory reference) Traveller.  I have played with a couple
of kids at one poit (15-16 year olds) and the game was a bit different for
the sake of those learning to be competitive.

Pete  


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:51:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Fossils and Time Travel 

Armand Suarez writes:
 "I'm not familiar enough with Relativity to fully understand this, but I 
  think it's fascinating.  I would like to use it in an adventure, but I need 
  more facts.  Could you please explain it further?  Why would your frame of 
  reference be in the planet's past?  I thought that relativistic speeds would 
  make it so that a trip to the center of the galaxy would be 10 years to you 
  and 10,000 years to the planet you left (gross approximation here). 
  Wouldn't that be time travelling to the future?  How would jump drive 
  change this?  Exactly how fast would you need to be going and how far away 
  from the planet would you have to go to travel a certain time backward? 
  Please tell me more!  Fascinating!!  Thanks!"

I'll try, but I'm hampered by lack of any good way to draw diagrams.
Yes, you are correct that an interstellar trip at relativistic speeds
takes longer for the people left behind than it does for the people on 
the ship.  One can certainly regard that as a kind of time-travel.  But 
it is one-way, only into the future, and in that regard is the same as 
the time-travel we all do at the rate of 24 hours a day.

How would jump drive affect this?  It would give you some leeway.  You 
could cut down on the trip times for both shipboard and ground observers 
by using jump.  Or so I would imagine.  Since jump is imaginary physics, 
how it works with real physics is somewhat up for grabs.

To go backward, you need to mix the faster-than-light jumps with 
the relativistic effects, as Leonard and Erickson and I described (even 
if we don't give the same direction of acceleration).

The basic equations for special relativity let you calculate the 
space and time coordinates for an event as they will appear to another 
observer, given the position and velocity of that observer, relative 
to you.

It works out that the time of an event is a function of the other observer's
speed AND a function of the distance between the observer and the even.
If an event is taking place somewhere ahead of the moving observer, and 
happening "now" (for him), it happens in the future for you (if the two 
of you are side by side at the moment -- that is, if he has breezing by you).
If the event takes place somewhere behind the moving observer, if it 
is "now" for him, it is already past for you.  And the further behind 
him it is, the further in the past it is for you.  And, of course, the 
slippage gets worse, the faster the other guy is going.

(Of course, if I've got my signs muddled, as Mr. Erickson thinks I have,
then the slippages run the opposite ways.)

I wish I could give you detailed formulas, but I am rather a "fringe" 
Traveller fan and only have some supplements, mostly TNE stuff, rather
than any specific details about jump drive and the effective speeds 
it can reach.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:57:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Time travel 

Leonard Erickson writes:

 "From discussions in rec.arts.sf.science, you have *one* important
  detail wrong. You want to your velocity to be *towards* the planet
  (this is assuming a jump out, accelerate, jump back scenario)."

I thought sure it was *away,* but I admit I'm just running on personal 
memory and some simple worldline graphs.

 "And the critical speed is supposedly when the product of your effective
  speed from the jump and your realspace velocity exceeds c."

Um, the dimensions on this need some juggling, since the product of two 
velocities is square meters per second squared, and thus cannot be 
equal to another velocity withouth some additional arithmetic.

 "The easy way is to have someone in a jump 6 ship accelerate to high
  speed *towards* the target in a system 6 parsecs away. You jump out in
  another jump 6 ship, beam the critical info (Zhodani attack coming at
  XXX) to the other ship as soon as you exit jumpspace, and they jump to
  the system you left, arriving *before* you left."

Two ships are certainly easier (waiving the issue of whether or not 
you accelerate the opposite direction from the way you jump).  I was
giving an idealized, thought-experiment-type illustration.

 "I have to sit down and work of a good set of example figures to show
  this."

I think there are several people who would be interested in the results.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:05:23 -0400
Subject: A sudden urge -Reply

 The Phoenix said:

>Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer
>anyone  could possibly need.  42.

>(sorry, I had a sudden urge to do that.  If anyone hates me now feel 
>free to say so, but before you get too mad, I can contribute many 
>things better than this.  Well, at least some people think so...) :-)

ROTFL!!!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:37:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #502

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:44:09 -0800
>Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

<<<...lotsa snippage...>>>

>I do hope they learn from the mistake, and improve, and time will 
>tell whether it happens or not...  Let's see what happens, that's the 
>best I can say...

Well said, Stu!

Here's to the hope that IG will do better than they have already done.  T4
is good.  I want Traveller of the near future to be great!  I know IG has
the ability to do this, and I feel confident that they will.


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:43:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Unsolved mysteries...

Hi.

An offhand comment of mine sent Trent Smith into a long respnse:

>from: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
>date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:51:27 -0700 (PDT)
>subject: Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies

>   About Adventure 12 "spoiling" the Ancients, this is something which seems
>to get leveled against Traveller pretty often but I, for one, see nothing
>wrong with it.  For one thing, Adventure 12 wasn't released until 4-5 years

I don't see anything wrong with it either. I just wanted to illustrate
that it may take a while for IG to resolve the "uncharted worlds"
paradox, and that that may not necessarily be such a bad thing.

OTOH, if they resolve it soon, that may be an even better thing. 

>to kill off the game's creative potential-- sure, the mystery of the Ancients
>was a compelling part of early Traveller, but except for very oblique

Boy it sure was compelling. Compelling enough to get me to change my
campaign from a homebrew to the GDW canon!

>was a compelling part of early Traveller, but except for very oblique
>Library Data-type references, it really only took up a small part of the
>published material; the vast majority of the adventures (and all of the
>Solomani Rim ones) being completely unconcerned with who the Ancients really
>were.

A good point. And that's exactly why I didn't abandon the GDW canon
after Adventure 12; their other adventures were just as compelling!

>    Sorry for ranting into thin air, but it just bothers me when people act
>like one of the things I value most in Traveller (a search for knowledge that
>has eventual tangible results) is some sort of flaw or mistake.

It certainly isn't a flaw or mistake! It is Traveller's greatest
strength! (IMNSHO)

Sorry I didn't make my position clearer, Trent. Posting to the TML is
often a humbling lesson in communication for me.

- -Rob

PS --- I admit to not liking Adv-12 very much, but I recongnize that
this is /my/ problem. I took my players on it, and for them it was the
highlight of my campaign. (I never saw them so excited about an
adventure since the Zhodani attack at Twilight's Peak!)

Unsolved mysteries may make it easier for a GM to come up with a plot
device, but what the players really want is /answers!/ And a GM can only
string them along for so long.


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:53:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cleon and the Marches

Hi.

>From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 00:36:36 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

>     What's so important about the Spinward Marches?  Well, two big things 
>are the Ancients howeworld and the proximity to Zhodane.  While the first
>wouldn't have been known in the early 3I (is there any evidence that it may
>have been Suspected even?) 
[...]

The only evidence I know of is an oblique reference (but you know how I
love oblique references!) to the statistical distribution of Ancient
sites. (I think it was in Library Data under "Ancients" or "Ancient
sites.") The astrographic center of these sites appeared to be in the
Spinward Marches.

There is no mention of when this very interseting little fact was first
discovered, but this is no obstacle to a GM who wants to make something
interesting out of it!

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:34:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Social Acceptance

Hi.

Glenn Grant wrote:

>From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
>Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 04:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)

>>Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said,
>>
>>Interesting theory, Glenn.  So, the D&D books come out, and 
>>Fundamentalists are upset that their beliefs are treated as fiction.  But 
>>they know they can't get the populace to rally around that particular 
>>issue.

>Actually, I'm suggesting that the Fundies don't know what their real
>motivations are. I'm sure the fundies themselves are convinced D&D leads
>directly to virgin's-blood drinking parties in public parks on Samhain. But
>subconsciously they know that's utterly absurd; on some buried level they
>must be aware that playing a game about demons and elves rather does
>suggest disbelief, not belief, in such beings.

Hmmm. All the fundamentalists I know of who dislike RPG's (which is by no
means most of them) do so not because of demons and devils, but because
of player characters who 1) Kill people routinely, and 2) practice
magic. In short, they question the morality of pretending to commit
evil, as well as of actually committing evil. They seem pretty aware of
their real motivations.

Interestingly enough, my scientist co-workers who object to RPGing (again,
not the majority) do so for the same reasons. They dislike violence and
the occult (as do I), and they fear that RPGing encourages these things.

These objections are of course mixed into the media hysteria that
surrounds this issue, as you pointed out so excellently Glen. Very
interesting post, BTW. 


Regarding attitudes to RPGing, I haven't really noticed any demographic 
breakdown on negative or positive reactions. One of the things that I
like about RPGing is that it appeals to such a broad cross section of
local culture. Because RPGers are such a small group, it forces jocks
and couch potatoes, christians and atheists, skeptics and occultists,
old and young, conservatives and liberals, and moderates and extremists
to get together if they want to play. Very few other recreational
pasttimes get such a diverse group of people together for interpersonal
exchanges.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to do such a good job at getting men and
women together (as has been discussed lately on this list), or blacks
and whites (as has not).

As far as groups objecting to RPG's they seem divided into a
conservative camp, and a liberal camp. The loudest noise from the
conservative camp seems to be the spouting of religious doctrine. The
loudest noise from the liberal camp seems to be the spouting of feminist
theory. Fortunately for us, these two camps don't seem to get along with
one another as well as we do! 8^)

Just my $0.02

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:40:55 -0400
Subject: Auction Update 3

If anyone does not want me posting their email address on these updates,
let me know and I will assign you an "anonymous #". 					
					
					
1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir	$1.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
					
2.  Double Adventure 2:Mission on Mithril  $1.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
					
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	$2.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com			
 					
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague $5.00	sennafan@rust.net			
 					
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention  $5.00	sennafan@rust.net			
 					
6.  Book 8: Robots	$12.00	balcom@dayton.net			
 					
7.  Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society No.5   $13.00 sennafan@rust.net

 			
8.  JTAS No. 6	$5.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
9.  JTAS No.7 	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
10. JTAS No.7	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
11.  JTAS No.11	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
12.  JTAS No. 12	$1.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan 	$5.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani 	$20.00	mark@dk-online.dk			
 					
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	$8.00	sennafan@rust.net			
					
16.  101 Vehicles	$10.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu			
 					
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit 	$8.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com			
 					
18.  Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook	$20.00	goldendj@usa.net			
 					
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	$9.00  (anonymous1)			
 					
20.  Far Traveller No. 1 	$5.00	kozioi@ncsa.uiuc.edu			
 					
21.  High Passage No. 2  	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 			
 					
22.  High Passage No. 3	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 			
 					
23.  High Passage No. 4 	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 			
 					
24.  High Passage No. 5 	$12.00	jlockett@io.com. 			
 					
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed $10.00 goldendj@usa.net			
 
			
			
			


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:15:50 -0400
Subject: RPG's and Religion (sorta long)

        Even though this discussion is only tangentially related to
TRAVELLER, this list is probably a far better place for this discussion than
USENET, so I feel compelled to add to it.
        In 1984, I lived in a college Christian fellowship house near the
Central Michigan campus called His House. My best friend and fellow gamer
Ray lived there, and he invited me to move in. We had gamed at the house
before, with the full knowledge and assent of the pastor. At that time, we
played Top Secret and the Star Trek RPG; for religious reasons and others, I
didn't even play AD&D. Two guys moved in in the fall, and they were real
tight with the sponsoring demonination. The next thing I knew, we were being
told that we couldn't game there anymore; that other groups on campus were
saying that His House was becoming a "gaming fellowship". It turned out that
two people had made that comment. We refused to budge on that, and by the
time it was over, I had been labelled as a cult leader, and told to move
out. (Interestingly, they never went after Ray, and he certainly gave them
reason to. They went after ME because I was the GM.)
        I've been a Christian since 1975. I also lost a fiancee because I
wouldn't give up gaming. I made REAL sure my next girlfriend was a gamer; in
fact, I met Susan when she joined our Champions game. We were just starting
to date when all that stuff at His House went down.
        I think we need to differentiate between "fundamentalists" (people
who beleive in the fundamental truths of their religion) and
Fundamentalists, possibly more accurately termed Reactionary Fundamentalists
(RM's), who carry things to extremes.
        One of the two guys who eventually started the ball rolling on
throwing me out of the house said something which I thought was revealing.
We were arguing over whether RPG's were evil, and I said "But we don't play
AD&D! We play Star Trek!"
His comment was "I know that, but people out there don't, and I don't want
to have to take the time to explain it to them!"
        Sorry for unloading, but it just had to come out.
                                                        Allen

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:17:16 -0400
Subject: IG's mistakes

        Well, the errors have been made, and other than correcting them and
encouraging IG not to make the same mistakes again, we can't do anything
about it.
It's certainly no reason to start a flamewar.
                                                Allen

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:21:14 -0400
Subject: Mu U-CON game

The game I'm running at U-Con (actually, I think I'm running it twice) will
be for about 6 people. I will allow characters to be brought in to the game
IF they're "beginning level" and conform to the standard T4 rules, and if
they're fully equipped to start play. I will most likely NOT be running "Red
Zone"(although that may be subject to change), since that would give those
who read it here something of an advantage. Truth to tell, I don't quite
know WHAT I'm going to run yet. (Here it is the 7th, the con is 18 days
away, and I don't have a clue yet! HELPPP!)
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:20:24 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Glenn Grant wrote:
>
>> Not demonology. Blasphemy. In order to actually believe in demons you have
>> to be a fundamentalist christian (of a sort).
>
> Interesting theory, Glenn.  So, the D&D books come out, and 
> Fundamentalists are upset that their beliefs are treated as fiction.  But 
> they know they can't get the populace to rally around that particular 
> issue.  Then some kids go nuts and think the world of D&D is real - which 
> strangely enough vindicates the view of the Fundamentalists, vis a vis 
> the reality of demons and whatnot.  Finally, the Fundamentalists seize 
> this opportunity to give D&D a bad reputation, and claim that their 
> problem with the game is that it promotes satanism, and they hold these 
> nuts up as examples of the effect these occult powers can have on 
> unrighteous mortals.

Here's a thought that I came across in a gaming mag many years ago.
Stop and consider how *you* would react if (for example), those clerics
were invoking Christ and various saints to perform miracles for them.
And were worshipping Jehovah.

At lot of folks get *real* uncomfortable when the situation gets that
"real". On the other hand, I've known several witches who got quite a
laugh out of the silliness aspect of magic in D&D and other games
compared with magick as practiced in their religious rituals.

Folks that tend be be humorless tend to get upset. Those who realize
that even the Being or Beings in charge of the universe probably have a
sense of humor too tend to take things in stride.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #503
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 504

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Silly adventure idea
         2. Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!
         3. Re: Copyright?  Right!
         4. Re: Re: Another Animal Bug
         5. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         6. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
         7. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply
         8. Re: I am going to give it a go...
         9. Re: Gambling
        10. Re: Another Animal Bug
        11. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs 
        12. RE: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        13. RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
        14. RE: My hobbies...
        15. RE: Dave's TNE
        16. RE: A sudden urge
        17. RE: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
        18. Re: Playing to win
        19. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:31:40 PST
Subject: Silly adventure idea

While reading yet another discussion of how this or that neat SF idea
would require "unobtanium" over on rec.arts.sf.science, it occured to
me that this could be turned into a plot device. 

In Lary Niven's Known Space universe, the General Products hull is a
type of "unobtanium". It's an artificially strengthened molecule, just
about indestructible, and transparent to visible light in the frequency
ranges of the customers. The hulls come in a limited number of sizes
and shapes, and you specify any openings in advance.

The GP #1 hull is a sphere about the size of a basketball. Obviously
intended for making probes to check out potentially dangerous
environments. 

So I got to wondering about what would happen if a probe built using
such a hull turned up in Imperial space. Or maybe on the frontiers. 

It's *obviously* alien technology. Transparent except where the inside
is coated with something, indestructible, and with tantalizing glimpses
of alien devices inside.

Many, many possibilities for involving the players.

1. they find it
2. somebody else finds it, and hires the players to try to track it
   back to where it came from.
3. like 2, but they hire the players to help track it (ie the hirer
   goes with them)
4. Like 2, but it's an imperial agency or a megacorp.
5. like 4, but with a representative of the hirer on board, running the
   show.
6. ???

And just what it *is* has many possibilities too. Want to help flesh
this out a bit more?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:40:49 PST
Subject: Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!

In mail you write:

> Niko, I have run games in the past that involved gambling of different 
> kinds but have always felt that a skill in Gambling was a little 
> anomalous since gambling was supposed to be about luck.

Obviously, you *haven't* done much gambling. Craps and roulette are
about luck. Cards games are about skill. And a lot of forms of gambling
will pay off if you know how to best place your bets and when not to bet.

> Also, different 
> societies and worlds have different games and events on which they 
> gamble. I was often unsure as to where the Gambling skill actually came 
> into effect. Some players maintained that it was a combination of the 
> character's ability to cheat, bluff, and assess odds. Other refs I've 
> played under say it is purely a measure of the characters breadth of 
> knowledge of the games and the language of gambling that gives he/she 
> credibility when trying to get into a game or play the tables. 

I'd say it reflects knowledge of the rules, and of the *odds*. If both
of us know the rules, but I know the odds better than you, I can come
out ahead.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:41:18 PST
Subject: Re: Copyright?  Right!

In mail you write:

> On 10/06/96 at 09:59 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
>
>>At 04:36 pm 10/5/96 -0700, David Joseph Smart wrote:
>>---------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>        Nice name ... too bad I own the copyright. Please submit Cr1,000
>>usage fee...
>>--________________________________________________________________
>>   Dave Golden    
>
> No!  No!  If anybody owned the copyright it would be your parents, <g> and
> besides it would have expired already.  OTOH, if you own the *Trademark*
> then....<g>

The copyright doesn't expire until 50 (75?) years after the author's
death. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 14:59:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Another Animal Bug

> >While looking for the base animal hit number (and not finding it), I
noticed
> >another bug in the animal encounter table system.
> >
> >On page 142, under Animal Characteristics, it states that the a score of
A7
> >means that the animal attacks on a roll of 7 or less.  This is opposite
the
> >CT system, in which the number had to be equalled or exceeded.

>Rob -
>Strangely, I just looked it up, and Animal Characteristics (p 144) states 
>that the roll is X+, not X-.  But I must be missing something.  I tried p 
>142 as you suggested, and I couldn't find what you were referring to.  
>Can you give me more of a hint as to where the rule you reference is stated?


This is getting really strange.  I have my softcover open in front of me now,
and on page 142, in the upper left-hand column, under Animal Characteristics,
it states: 

"A indicates attack predisposition. A7 would indicate that the animal will
attack on a roll of 7-..."

I have checked page 144, and you are right, _there_ it gives the roll as 7+. 
This agrees with the numbers on the table on page 152.

However, if the number is to be equalled or exceeded, then the table on page
152 has some pretty brave grazers: 13+ to flee!  You just can't get this
number on a 1D-1 roll (as per the table on 152).

Just noticed, the table also has the atack/flee stats for animals 9-12 in the
wrong order: carnivores should test for attack first, and these have fleeing
listed first.

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:02:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

    Rob mentions the oblique reference in Library Data to the statistical
density of Ancients sites being cenetered in the Marches:

   I'd forgotten this, but now I remember it perfectly.  Of course, no one 
would know that the Marches were the statistical center until we got there 
to explore them, but we might be able to assume that density increases as
you approach the Marches as well (which isn't necessarily true, but it could
be!) and that some crackpot theorists were able to predict that the Marches
would be the statistical center before it was proven to be so.
   So there we have it: the (possible) Ancients sites, the Zhodani threat,
the old TL-16 Darrians, and plain ol' curiosity-- plenty of reasons for the
Third Imperium to move into the Marches before it might have logically seemed
like they would.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:49:49 PST
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

In mail you write:

> Thinking back, L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s Ecolitan novels should also be on the 
> list.

As well as his "Forever Hero" stuff. And I'm beginning to get odd
suspicions about the upcoming "Fall of Angels" in his Recluse "fantasy"
series.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:02:22 PST
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply

In mail you write:

> drink." or finally (to stay on-topic) "My character is conjuring up a demon
> from hell to fight his battles. There's definitely something, say, *satanic*
> about that."

Not really. It depends on details. After all, according to existing
texts on magic from the middle ages, there were *two* main methods for
getting demons to do things for you. The easy on was to buy them off,
offer them something they wanted. Of course that tended to ensure a bad
end for you. The other method was to compel them to do your bidding by
invoking various holy names etc. That was harder to do, but as long as
you used them to perform actions that were moral, you didn't endanger
yourself spiritually. The "white" magician could also attempt to invoke
angelic aid, but that was a definite case of doing things to get there
attention and humbly hoping that they found you worthy of aid.

I once started on some rules for that sort of thing but decided that
it'd make too many people uncomfortable. But *if* demons exist, the
same sources do list angels and *their* powers with almost the same
zeal and detail that they list those of demons. So they are equally
"correct" from a doctrinal point of view.


> That's one of the reasons I stopped playing D&D years ago,
> before I was a Christian in the first place. It made me uncomfortable.

I'd be the last to insist on someone doing something that made them
uncomfortable. That's why I dropped the rules idea. But it often pays
to careful examine *why* you are uncomfortable. And to question any
easy answers as to why.


> And
> that's one of the great things about Traveller: it's got none of that
> baggage to drag people down. I think more of a variety of people who
> believe a variety of things can play Traveller than can play D&D.

Though the same sort of issues can show up, though they are less likely
to. Read James Blish's "A Case of Conscience" for a definitely SF story
dealing with a *religious* dilemma that grows out of contact with an
alien species. The whole thing is based on the simple question od
whether or not they have souls, and if they need saving.

> Fundamentalist Christians blow things way out of proportion, and give
> Christianity in general a bad name because of it. I just wanted to defend
> my religion, and uphold a hobby I love at the same time. 

I have a friend who considers herself a "fundamentalist" and considers
the people *known* by that term to have hijacked it. She rather wishes
they'd all go jump off a bridge or something and quit giving the faith
a bad name.

Me, I'm an agnostic. Unlike atheists, who are *certain* there's no god
(a belief that as much an expression of faith as any Christian's) I'm
not certain. (Actually, I'm a deist, but that term's not well known.
I'm sure there's a God I'm just not certain about the details)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:14:29 -0700
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

Joe Walsh wrote (in response to Trent Smith's comments):

> I guess this is my day to bitch and moan. :)
> 
> This choreographed approach bugs me.  While I'm not one for using
> pre-packaged adventures much, I'm more likely to use one that is crafted
> along the lines of the old, CT-era adventures than those that are
> currently produced.  I hope IG and the licensees will be using the
> correct approach for the adventures they produce.


I disagree whole heartedly, Joe.  I own a business, and most of my 
players are professionals.  We have careers and families to attend to.  
This is not like it was in High School when I could spend a week working 
on the adventure before my gaming group meets.  

I LIKE adventures that do as much work for the GM as possible.  I like to 
see pre-generated NPC's.  I want to see all the equipment detailed.  I 
want maps, diagrams, and deck plans.  Heck, I want the whole system 
detailed in case the adventure takes a spur to one of the outer planets.

If I don't like what is printed, I change it.  It is as simple as that.  
The difference is that I can choose how much work needs to be done before 
the session.

I've been gaming long enough to recognize that there are many GMs out 
there who hold your view.  I submit that IG produces detailed adventures 
to satisfy people like me, but include a chapter with the more general 
information, for players like yourself.  This way, I believe we both can 
happy.

I also believe, that if Traveller is going to survive, IG needs to hit 
the market hard with published adventures.  GDW's problem was that it was 
supplement heavy--not enough adventures.  I love the supplements, but the 
adventures are what drives a game.  They encourage playing the game and 
not reading about the game.

It's elementary.  If you want a game to grow, you need people to play it. 
  What better way is there to intice people to play than to have some 
exciting, fast paced, well put-to-gether adventures?

I believe this is why TSR's AD&D is still the number one RPG around while 
GDW went out of business.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:32:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Gambling

SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> I'm beginning a Traveller campaign for a group of players, one of which is
> extremely interested in focussing on the "gambling" skill.  And, I need
> whatever help you more experienced GMs and players can offer.
> 
> I've got the article "The Gamesters of Findass II", but have not come across
> any other information.  Mind you, I have not combed through everything I own,
> but if someone would be so kind as to point me in the correct direction, I
> (and the player) would be very grateful.
> 
> I'm not above taking information from other game systems and translating it
> into Traveller if need be, BTW.
> 
> Thanks for your time (and hoping this isn't a done to death question),
> 
> Niko
> SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

Niko,

I haven't seen a lot of stuff on gambling other than what is detailed 
in the skill's description in the CT\MT\TNE\T4 books, but the now out of 
print James Bond RPG by Victory Games had a dynamite system.  It is 
detailed, fast, and very simple to use.  I think it would be a great 
conversion for Traveller.

I've got all the old James Bond stuff.  If you are interested in 
this, E-mail me at dreamer@brokersys.com, and I'll send you the basics to 
use for your conversion.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:51:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Another Animal Bug

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> While looking for the base animal hit number (and not finding it), I noticed
> another bug in the animal encounter table system.
> 
> On page 142, under Animal Characteristics, it states that the a score of A7
> means that the animal attacks on a roll of 7 or less.  This is opposite the
> CT system, in which the number had to be equalled or exceeded.
> 
> However, the tables on page 152 appear to be based on the old CT system,
> because a grazer is the least likely animal to flee, while a killer is the
> least likely animal to attack!  This makes cows more agressive than
> wolverines!
> 
> The sample table on page 152 contains results that are impossible to get with
> the given rules.  Eg. result 6 has grazers fleeing on 13-, but the roll to
> determine the flee number is 1D-1.  I think this means that the wrong table
> was printed in the rules.  (Looks like the old CT table, actually.)

Go get 'em, Rob!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 19:36:52 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs 

Earl Wajenberg said:

>Just for a bit of social history -- it seems there are always people 
>who are deeply suspicious of new forms of entertainment, and these 
>people are (not surprisingly) often the highly respectable type for 
>whom life is a matter of discharging one's duty properly.  Such 
>people don't put a lot of value on fun, and are often members of 
>culturally conservative groups.
<big snip>
>a self-protective code of self-censorship in response, in very much 
>the same way RPGs suffer now.  Video games have the same problem.

Great point, I'm reminded that telephones had a similar response.  I've got a 
reasonable well-developed "white-paper" on a world that is paralyzed by a 
similar problem regarding the import of off-world technology.  I haven't 
written any complete adventures for it, but the seeds are there.  There is 
conflict of all sort stemming from the "technibition"; the IISS is involved 
(and somewhat responsible), organized crime, megacorps, various political 
parties, etc.  Good stuff.

					---Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 19:31:16 UT
Subject: RE: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Rob Prior said:
>>yet many think the word "fundamentalist" is interchangeable with the word
>>Christian.
>
>Probably because that's how the very vocal fundamentalist Christians use it. 

Interesting, almost all the Christians I know, myself included, balk at the 
label.  IMO, it represents an attitude wherein the letter of the law, so to 
speak, is emphasized over the spirit -- to the detriment of people.

>I went to a fundamentalist Baptist church for a while (because that's where
>my fiancee went) and they were very agressive in calling everyone who went 
>to a different church "non-Christian".  

Yep, my church is full of people wounded in churches like you describe.  
Happens all the time.

>To drag this back to a Traveller perspective, I've used this type of
>word-shift to good effect in many adventures.  Check out the novel "The Man

Me too, I think that attention to those details makes for a better game.  
Especially once the players catch on.

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 19:41:50 UT
Subject: RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Paul Walker admittedly ranted:

>Hey, just here to add my .02 gal of fuel to the fire.
>

Wow, Paul, that's more like 10 gallons!   :-)>

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 19:15:16 UT
Subject: RE: My hobbies...

Andy Lilly said:
>>Rich Ostorero said:
>>>> So I stick to talking about my
>>>> other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
>>>> always better :-)
>
>Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" >response
>(and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
>more respect...
>
>Andy :-)

Not to mention the fact that nobody is about to dis a guy that could whirl 
around and knock yer block off in a split second...  :-)>

					---Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 19:51:50 UT
Subject: RE: Dave's TNE

Harold Hale Said:

<snip>
>   Or for that matter, continue to use CT or MT, or TNE and take a few bits
>and pieces (or even large chunks) from T4 and use them for your home
>campaigns.  

It took me a while to get there, as I was emotionally attached to GDW's 
version, but I no longer rely on any published material for the background I 
now use.  I have a copy of MT and TNE each on my shelf, and apart from a few 
equipment ideas, I haven't snagged anything else to use with my primarily CT 
campaign.  I was in the process of adopting Stewart Eyres' house rules for 
combat; but then T4 arrived and I'm using it for now.  (5th frontier war?  
_What_ 5th frontier war?)   ;-)>

>T4's commerical viability no longer depends upon keeping the
>existing fan base happy with regard to storyline or game mechanics--it
>depends on new customers.  We might not like that fact, but a fact it is.

Very astute comment.  I think that is true with the survivability of almost 
all products.

					---Boyd



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 19:17:10 UT
Subject: RE: A sudden urge

The Phoenix cleverly quipped:

>Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone 
>could possibly need.  42.

>(sorry, I had a sudden urge to do that.  If anyone hates me now feel 
>free to say so, but before you get too mad, I can contribute many 
>things better than this.  Well, at least some people think so...) :-)

Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?

hehehee				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 20:05:43 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Cmdr Hold'Em spewed:

>Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
<snip>
>
>First of all, I resent you saying I spewed anything.

Stu meant no harm, his mailer ALWAYS sez "spewed" for every message he replies 
to.  On the other hand, notice that I said you "spewed".  I don't have an 
automatic thingy like Stu.  I had to actually type in that you "spewed".

					---Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:25:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Playing to win

Rob Prior wrote:
> When I play a competitive game, I play to win, and expect my opponent to do
> me the same courtesy.  After all, competition is part of the game.  I
> regularly get pasted at Chinese chess by my students, but as long as they
> don't gloat and explain (after the game) what I did wrong/they did right I
> don't mind.

If you learn from your mistake, then you've won in a way
If you huff and puff and complain about card order, infer cheating on your opponent's 
part, then you've really lost

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:20:22 -0400
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

 Paul Walker stated:

>Hey, just here to add my .02 gal of fuel to the fire.

>I have been reading Boyd, Richard, John, and others converse about 
You can call me Rich. My wife's the only one who calls me Richard, and
that's only when she's yelling at me :)

>To start, let me pull out my label and wear it proudly.  I am a
>Fundamental
>Baptist.  I believe God exists, I believe that he created the world in 6
>days, including man, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and I believe that
>Jesus became a man, lived, died, rose from the grave, and will one day
>return.  I say all of that to somewhat define the label I wear.  This
>mailing list is not the place to debate the ideas above, I only bring them
>up to define my background and frame of reference.

I believe the same thing. I would also add the *reason* for which Christ
died: to pay the penalty for the sins of His people, those who trust in Him
as Savior and Lord. My official label would read "Reformed
Presbyterian."

>Now, after having said what I said above, some of you, no doubt, have
>labeled me as a person who does not think for himself, and takes what
>he is told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that
>to a couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you
>want to speak up, now would be a good time :), but my point is simply
>that by classing myself as a Fundamentalist, I am automatically
>perceived to be a certain type of person, and believe a certain way. 
>The same is true of the
>"Christian Community's" view of RPG's.

I guess I, as well, am guilty of generalizing based on labels. In my
experience (which is by no means, of course, exhaustive),
"fundamentalists" always meant those Christians who, while being true
believers, add a lot of extra rules, like "playing cards is evil," "movies are
evil," etc. Please forgive me for incorrectly labeling you that way.

> Which of the
>RPGer's of which of the Christians get the press?  The normal ones, or
>the ones that exist on the fringe and carry out their beliefs or hobby (as
>the case may be) to the extreme?  Being a member of both communities,
>I can tell you that it is not the normal ones.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head there.

>Boiling this down is kinda tough, but I think the main problem is a lack of
>an accurate perception by both groups of the other.  I don't know how
>much can be done to "fix" this situation, though.  I don't know how many
>of you would sit down long enough to let me clear up the
>misconceptions of
>Christianity.  I don't think this would happen much for 2 reasons:

>     1. Finding all the misconceptions is not easy, many of them are so
>old, that they seem as fact to the one that doesn't understand.
>     2. Many of you probably don't care enough about religion to sit and
>listen to the explanations.  This is not a flame or insult.  It is the same
>thing as me not wanting Leonard or one of the other Engineering types
>to explain the details of quantum physics to me, I just am not that
>interested.

Again, good points!

>These same two reasons are true of those in the religous community
>about
>RPG's.  That is, their misconceptions are so deeply rooted that finding
>them all would be difficult, and they really don't care that much about
>Role
>Playing to learn what those misconceptions are.  The problem arises 
Although it's not impossible. I've just convinced my Pastor and the
Session of my church to let me Referee DragonRaid every Wednesday
night for the youth group (DragonRaid is the Christian Role-Playing Game
I mentioned in an earlier post). 

>when someone, out of ignorance or based on these misconceptions,
>speaks out against the other group.  It is then that attitudes are charged
>up and people get defensive rather than calmly explaining what they
>misunderstand.

I think we all need to be less judgmental until we have looked at all the
facts. I know why I don't play D&D, probably better than those Christians
who have picketed game stores. Why? Because I actually played the
game and examined it for myself. But I'm not going to say that gaming in
general is evil--I rather enjoy it as a hobby. People shouldn't
over-generalize. It always gets them into trouble.

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 505

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 
         2. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
         3. Re: IG's mistakes
         4. RE: Cleon and the Marches
         5. RE: RPG's and Religion (sorta long)
         6. Re: Cleon & The marches
         7. Re: Cleon & The Marches
         8. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
         9. Re: My hobbies...
        10. Re: female characters
        11. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        12. Re: Kinunirs
        13. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply
        14. Re: social-acceptance
        15. Re: Respect...
        16. Re: social-acceptance
        17. Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)
        18. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:19:39 -0700
Subject: Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 

Joe Walsh wrote:
 
> This weekend, I also finished editing T4 for IG, wrote a cover letter
> with a number of suggested changes (nothing earth-shattering; just stuff
> like adding more examples, adding a few Patron Encounters and a Casual
> Encounter, etc.), and got one step closer to finishing RPSC.

Joe,

Here's something else for your T4 errata:

Yesterday we started using the T4 rules in my ongoing Traveller 
campaign.  The mission was to travel from the main world to a station 
in the outer system for a bug hunt.  

I had a Traveller newbie starting with me, so, in an effort to teach him 
the system, I had him calculate the time it would take to travel from the 
main world to the outsystem station in our SDB.

I gave him the distance in km, the ship's G rating, and my copy of T4 
opened to the page with the travel formula.

It took the newbie some time, but he looked up with an answer.  73 days 
he said.  I immediately knew something was wrong, because I had already 
calculated it out to be 2.29 days.

So I looked at the travel formula.  Eventhough the formula is right as 
printed, IG left out the paragraph on converting the familiar units of 
space travel--like the G rating--to the units used in the formula.

GDW included this paragraph with the formula in the little CT 
Starships black book, the Traveller Book, Starter Traveller, and in MT's 
Referee's Companion.  It seems that it would have also been left in T4.

I see a problem with players new to Traveller using the interstellar 
formula.  Being a long time Traveller GM, I didn't notice it, but I think 
the conversion description is important to have in the next printing of 
T4--especially since any type of math scares a lot of people.

One more suggestion.  I think the formula in the MT Referee's Companion 
would be better suited in conjunction with the one already in T4.  The MT 
version is already calculated to produce T in hours, and the G rating of 
a ship does not have to be multiplied by 10.  This allows for minimal 
conversion on the part of the player.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:35:57 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> Jeez, touchy aren't we...  Have a sense of humor...  :-)

I apologize. It is just that I am under very serious attack from several christians now for 
being an atheist and they are deadly serious. Sometimes, when one is under attack it is 
difficult to distinguish between a friendly jab and another assault

> I'm sick of being bashed by people just because I defend something
> they don't agree with.  Deal with it...

and vice versa

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:42:28 +0000
Subject: Re: IG's mistakes

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>         Well, the errors have been made, and other than correcting them and
> encouraging IG not to make the same mistakes again, we can't do anything
> about it.
> It's certainly no reason to start a flamewar.
>                                                 Allen

Sounds good to me
To everyone who is PO'd that I'm PO'd at errors, I apologize for continuing this thread
(horse is dead)

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 20:21:42 UT
Subject: RE: Cleon and the Marches

Trent Smith said:
to explore them, but we might be able to assume that density increases as
you approach the Marches as well (which isn't necessarily true, but it could
be!) and that some crackpot theorists were able to predict that the 

I've got a neet-o adventure along thes lines (skewed towards CT 3I, but could 
easily be adapted to any milieu.  Only problem is that it's a jumbo file.  
Kinda big to just toss out on TML.  But maybe I could put it on somebody's 
website...  I've never uploaded to a website, how does that work?

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 20:45:22 UT
Subject: RE: RPG's and Religion (sorta long)

Allen Shock said:

>        Even though this discussion is only tangentially related to
>TRAVELLER, this list is probably a far better place for this discussion than
>USENET, so I feel compelled to add to it.
<snip>
I agree, there is much more maturity on this mailing list from people, whether 
they agree or not.

>His comment was "I know that, but people out there don't, and I don't want
>to have to take the time to explain it to them!"
>        Sorry for unloading, but it just had to come out.
>                                                        Allen
No, thanks for telling it.  Your story reminds me of the passage in the Bible 
where Jesus and his guys were walking by a field of wheat and were hungry so 
they ate some wheat right off the stalks (which was not forbidden).  The 
religious-elites of the day got on their case and condemned them saying "you 
are breaking the sabbath law", which forbid them doing "work" on the sabbath 
day. 
Jesus later asked them which one of them would rescue one of their livestock 
if it fell in a pit on the sabbath day -- of course they all would, even 
though moving livestock was classified as "work" by their rules.
He said that the "sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
I think this is the biggest mistake we (meaning Christians, myself included) 
make towards people who believe and towards people who don't belileve.  We 
place the emphasis on the law over the people.  ie. we want people to serve 
the rules, not the rules to serve people.  Hmmm... sounds a little like the 
difference between folks on TML when it comes to "Canon" or not, eh?

:-)>
				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:47:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

Ethan Henry wrote:

> (Which makes me wonder if a lot of diplomats way away from Capital still
> went around calling it the 'Sylean Federation' for decades after year 0,
> thinking this whole "Imperium" fad would just pass on...)



I'd buy this.



> Well, yes, readings show that Cleon sure as hell pushed into the Marches
> at that time, but that isn't justification in itself. Neither is his
> being Solomani. What was the big deal with the Marches, I wonder? Why
> was
> Cleon going to a lot of trouble in the Marches (which still weren't
> totally
> settled by the 1100's - look at District 268 - it still has a _number_!)
> when he had the whole body of Imperial space to roll through without
> resistance?



One thought on this....  

Cleon had the vargr coreward--who wants to deal with the flakey vargr 
when you are starting an empire?  That type of contact can ruin a 
perfectly good empire from the inside out.  

He had the solomani rimward--better wait and deal with them after the 
empire is firmly established.  We don't want them getting any ideas about 
"The Rule of Man:  The Sequel". 

To trailing, Cleon faced the k'kree.  This is like the Isralies.  Mess 
with their territory and they'll just kick your butt--no questions asked.

So what's left?  Spinward.  Spinward seperated into two areas of space by 
the claw.

Spinward/rimward you've got the the aslan, but spinward/coreward is the 
unknown.  Zhodani contact was not made until 50.

I submit that Cleon had two primary goals for establishing the 3I.  The 
primary goal was to re-establish contact with all the worlds of the 
former Imperium.  Secondly, the Spinward Marches was the 'new world'.  If 
your going to expand, then this is the place to do it.

Cleon probably wanted to get his hands on it, and then have the option to 
 either sell it (like France did with Louisiana) or develop it (like 
England did with the New England states).

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 17:05:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon & The Marches

Huh. Imagine that - I almost have lots of good explanations as to why
Cleon was all over the Marches like sh*t on a pig. Considering the
lag in preparing a major colonization and the time it takes to get
way out to the Marches, the settlement of Mora in 60 must certainly
have been well-planed before the death of Cleon  in 53. The lure of
the Darrians, potential Ancient sites and heading off the Zhos are all
pretty plausable reasons.

Closure! On TML! Never did I think I'd see the day. I guess it's back
to Hiver conspiracy theories for me.

And on the topic of "fundies" (not edible underwear either),

There are tolerant people and there are intolerant people. I don't
think there's any real correlation between lever of tolerance
and religous belief - it just happens that in America, the intolerant
(largely right-wing) population happens to be Christian and they use
the Bible as their justification. Christians allso have a historical
tradition of "spreading the word" - thus their interest in making
you see the errors of your ways. Not all Christians are like this
though. I dunno, I've learned a lot about religion in general since
meeting my wife (who is currently pursuing her MA in Religous Studies)
and if there's one thing I've discovered, it's that people will use the
same words to describe two very different belief systems more often than
not. (I suppose I don't have much of a point, other than Christian
!= wacko fundie).

Ethan

PS. Not that I want to close the topic on  the Marches though - 
I'd love to see some projections on the growth rate in the first century
or two of the 3I - it would probably make the IMF's collective heads spin. :)


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 10:56:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Boyd Schneider wrote:

> 
> No, I live in Dallas -- but was visiting the bay with my wife a few months
> ago.  Thought I might like to come up again some time, so I figgered maybe I
> could meet you face-to-face, maybe have a cameo role in one of your adventures
> or something...   :-)>
> 
>                                 --Boyd

Okay . . . I'm a couple of hours from SF (much more than that from the Big D). Let me 
know when you're coming back to northern California:)

- --Rich



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 11:17:19 -0700
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> >Rich Ostorero said:
> >>> So I stick to talking about my
> >>> other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
> >>> always better :-)
> 
> Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" response
> (and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
> more respect...

Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . . and you can't 
believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell people about the Society for 
Creative Anachronism. They think the initials stand for "Satan's Church in America."

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 11:29:48 -0700
Subject: Re: female characters

Simon John Harding wrote:

<<a bit o' deletia>>
> 
> My most recent
> female character was in Shadowrun. Her name was Kristy Lane and was an
> Organisational Change Specialist (Corp) with a custom designed medium
> pistol called the 'Baretta Legionaire'. I have to admit she was modelled
> somewhat from the character in the French movie 'Nikita' or in the
> American re-make 'The Assasin'.

The American remake starred Bridgette Fonda, IIRC, but the title was not "The Assassin." 
Good movie, just caught it on teevee a few weeks ago, but I can't remember the title 
right now.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 11:47:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostero just keeps getting kewler when he said:
> 
>
> 
> I would suggest that the same thing is true with Christians.  Many of us have
> to live not only with living out our lives in the best way possible, but also
> the bad reputation of those who have much zeal with little wisdom. 

You mean like how most NeoPagans have to live with the odium of the bad reputation of 
various darkside "satanic" groups while living their lives in the best way possible? :)

> I
> wouldn't consider myself a fundamentalist at all -- yet many think the word
> "fundamentalist" is interchangeable with the word Christian.

I don't. Most of the practicing (church-going, active as opposed to 
just-raised-in-a-Christian-culture) Christians I know are tolerant. It's just that in my 
 town, it is the fundimentalists and a silent majority of Other Church People, that run 
this town. 

> Even the word
> "Christian" has many meanings to different people.  You have to live with
> people thinking that they know ALL about you once they hear that you are a
> Christian.  Ah, but it runs with the territory...   :-)>

See my comment above.
> 

> 
> I agree, my interest in pop occult had nothing to do with gaming either -- but
> in an attempt to gain some power in my otherwise powerless and often
> frightening adolescent years.  My real interest was in joining the military --
> so I kept myself drug-free and fairly healthy to that end.

That is why a lot of kids try pop occult/alternative spirituality. 

<<snip, snip, snip>>

> 
> ROFL!!!    I wish I could see it...   uh, er, I mean, tsk tsk, what a shame...
>   ;-)>       Who/what is Tri Tac? (I just thought I would gather a few of my
> fundie friends and we would go picket them or something next weekend -- if we
> can't find any game stores, that is...)

Tri-Tac is the company behind "The Morrow Project" -- a GREAT post-holacaust RPG that 
has a LOT of nasty mutated beasties that would fit into Trav. They're in Michigan, and 
they even have a Web page (check out www.io.com/sjgames for a big honking list of game 
company links).
> 
> >> Rich Ostero has the right idea when telling folks about all his kewl (and
> >> socially acceptable) hobbies, but I think that he should include
> role-playing
> >> to the mix so folks would associate RPG's with "normalcy"
> >> (no offense intended by the "normalcy" comment, Rich)  ;-)>
> >
> >What's "normal"? ;) None taken, and I'll have to do some thinking about this.
> >Thanks,
> 
> Uh, I think the traditional answer goes something like this (repeat after me):
> 
> "WE are normal.  THEY are wierd and strange."
> or a more modern-day, bohemian attitude:
> "WE are wierd and strange, that makes us normal.  THEY are normal, that makes
> them wierd and strange."
> if the above confuses you, then don't worry, YOU are normal...   :-)>

Problem: I understand completely! I guess that makes me . . . . ;)

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
ASK ME ABOUT MY "WIERD IS WONDERFUL" BUTTON



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:02:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Kinunirs

John H Bogan Jr wrote:
> 
> On Oct 05, 1996 12:31:32, 'Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>' wrote:
> 
> >I cite as my authority the novel _To Dream of Chaos_;
> >the Solee had a number of them in the book.
> 
> Only one, actually, but yes, they became available
> in the rimward end of Imperial space.

At the end of the book, the Kinunir that attacked _Vi Et Aramis_, _Royal Vengeance_, 
returned to Mexit in company of a _Midi Ashuguim_(sp) destroyer and one other ship that 
I believe was a Kinuinr as well, but I'm unsure.
> 
> 
> >Might these relics be prizes captured by the
> >Solomani during their offensive from the Rim?
> 
> In Old Expanses, the flow of events was roughly
> as follows (I don't have dates in front of me right now):
> 
> 1) The Solomani attacked;
> 2) not knowing about (1) yet, Lucan ordered the Sector
> Fleet withdrawn for operations against Dulinor;
> 3) with only local sub-sector Colonial Fleets to defend
> against front-line Solomani forces, the sector
> nobility surrendered. However, at best, the Solomani
> only gained effective control of a little over half
> the sector;
> 4) attacks by Margaret pushed Solomani control back
> to within the rimward-most subsectors;
> 5) Black War attacks wrecked key facilities in some
> parts of the sector;
> 6) the Hard Times developed from the economic
> dislocations. The most coreward and rimward parts
> were fronteir zones of Margaret and the Solomani,
> repectively. The central areas were worse off;
> 7) the Virus made everything else a moot point.
> 
> They're likely ex-Imperial Colonial ships whose fleet-of-service
> might have depended on what time period you're
> talking about.

That makes more sense . . . . Solee is located near the center of the Old Expanses, 
IIRC, and the RC is centered in what was the Solomani frontier. The attack on Hitte, the 
future Nike Nimbus, was a classic example of a Black War raid. If it was a forward 
Solomani naval base, a Black War raid upon it would be logical.

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:48:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs -Reply

Richard L. Sezov wrote:
> 
>
> 
> That's the problem with fundamentalist Christians. They concentrate on
> those things which are not central to their faith. I am a Christian, but not a
> fundamentalist (although I will say that I believe in the fundamentals,
> theologically speaking). It's not important to me whether Christians go
> watch rated R movies, play role-playing games, drink alcohol, or play
> cards. What is important is that Christians filter the stuff in those
> activities through their worldview, so they can put the proper labels on
> things. For example: "You know, that nude scene really didn't add
> anything to the movie. " or "I enjoy playing cards, but I'm losing my shirt,
> so I better stop." or "I'm feeling a buzz, maybe I shouldn't have another
> drink." or finally (to stay on-topic) "My character is conjuring up a demon
> from hell to fight his battles. There's definitely something, say, *satanic*
> about that." That's one of the reasons I stopped playing D&D years ago,
> before I was a Christian in the first place.

I stopped playing D&D for two reasons. One: When TSR bought SPI out, I was a subscriber 
to SPI's magazine _Strategy and Tactics_. TSR chose to not honor the subs of SPI's 
customers. In fact, they offered me a "discount," asking me to pay once again for 
something I already had: a 3-year sub to S&T. I could not bear this insult to my 
intelligence, not to mention my wallet, so I wrote the Powers-that-Be at TSR at the time 
and told them that they have lost a customer -- for good, forever. I estimate that TSR 
lost thousands of dollars over the years in business from me in products I *didn't* buy. 
Two: I was growing uncomfortable with the emphasis on demonic opponents, too. I sensed 
something _wrong_, a vague feeling that I should look into other games. This was not 
driven by any kind of religious motivation . . . it was a 'I've got a bad feeling about 
this . . .' kind of a thing, and the emphasis on Opposition From (your choice of) Hell 
gave me a tag. 

> It made me uncomfortable. And
> that's one of the great things about Traveller: it's got none of that
> baggage to drag people down. I think more of a variety of people who
> believe a variety of things can play Traveller than can play D&D.

The first game I turned to, post D&D, was CT.
> 
> Fundamentalist Christians blow things way out of proportion, and give
> Christianity in general a bad name because of it. I just wanted to defend
> my religion, and uphold a hobby I love at the same time.


You did so, well and honorably, in both specifics.Good post!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
" . . . the humans kill what they do not understand . . ." -- K. Kurtz, _Camber the 
Heratic_



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:27:01 -0700
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
>
> > The usual Stage One response. My parents think this hobby is some kind of evil
> > mind-control cult, and I'm 37.
> >
> 
> That is hardcore. I have the greatest respect for you sticking with it
> under that kind of pressure.

I stopped listening to their version of moral truth when I was 14. It makes for a 
strained family life, though. 
> 
>
> 
> Rich, that is truely incredible. The closest thing to that kind of
> reaction came from the mother of a good friend of mine when he was
> about 16. She banned him from coming to our gaming club and confiscated
> his books. He would still find a way of playing though.

Lazarus Long said something like: You can't stop a man determined to be free . . . you 
can only kill him. Moms shy away from _that_ solution for good reason.

Again, To paraphrase RAH, from _Expanded Universe_: just beneath the surface of the 
American character, and as integral to it as as it's practicality, is a strain of 
irrationality. That strain thrives here. The California Central Valley, with the notable 
exception of islands of relative sanity like Chico and Sacramento (a college town and 
the state capitol), is as intolerant as the most red-necked regions of the storied 
American South, and it is getting worse. Relocation IS in my future . . . as soon as my 
daughter starts college (fall '99), I'm OUTTA HERE! 
> 
> Rich, I expect the situation is agrevated in your community by the
> current trends in packaging design for RPGs.

If you mean gratituous sex and violence in cover art and/or occult symbology in same, 
then yes. White Wolf is a prime offender here.

- --Rich Ostorero
stuck in Lodi, again
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:01:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Respect...

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> I forgot to add to my previous mail, that I DO tell people I play RPGs, but
> after emphasising my black belt in karate. It seems to make them remarkably
> more open-minded about what I'm saying!
> 
> Andy :-)
> 
> P.S. Then I tell them about the satanistic rites we perform in our AD&D games...

Oh well, satanic rite or wrong . . .

<<ducks a shower of dead cats, satchels of plastique and streams of napalm>> ;)

If I still played AD&D, I'd tell 'em we only _spank_ the virgins, Andy, not drink their 
blood. ;)


- --Rich "Nomex Suit ON" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:55:56 -0700
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:
>
> 
> I experienced some of the same. It is amazing how intolerant of fun some people can be
> I still remember the old arguments (does monopoly make me a greedy capitalist? no?
> Then how does pretending to be a wizard make me a witch?)

Does pretending to be an alien from another planet make Lenord Nemoy an alien? GREAT 
argument!

> I had a situation where the
> sponsoring teacher became a fundamentalist christian over one summer (in high school)
>  and when we got back in September we no longer had a games club.

Jerk.

>  He felt that we
> were dealing in something very wrong (luckily we found another teacher who liked
> provoking loonies like that and we were back in business)
> Try being an atheist on top of that (I had the Christian Fellowship after the whole > 
> games club because I was a member and that "proved" it was bad)


My NeoPagan friends had the same problems in college; certain elements of the Christian 
Fellowship tried to get the school's Pagan Club banned from campus under similar grounds 
. . . fortunately, the Bay Area is another region where a degree of sanity prevails, and 
it was a college, where different standards apply. 


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:35:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)

Glenn Grant wrote:

> 
> Actually, I'm suggesting that the Fundies don't know what their real
> motivations are. I'm sure the fundies themselves are convinced D&D leads
> directly to virgin's-blood drinking parties in public parks on Samhain. But

Funny, I thought playing Vampire: The Overly Pretentious led to those damned virgin's 
blood drinking parties on Samhain . . . or was that Beltane? Gotta keep the sabbats and 
esbats straight . . . ;)

- --Rich "Hold the virgin's blood, I'll just have a Bloody Mary" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:31:25 -0700
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> Hey, just here to add my .02 gal of fuel to the fire.
> 
> I have been reading Boyd, Richard, John, and others converse about the
> Fundamentalists and their problems with RPG's.  Well, I think I know at
> least part of the troubel, and it has been waltzed all around here on the
> list in the past few days.
> 
> To start, let me pull out my label and wear it proudly.  I am a Fundamental
> Baptist.  I believe God exists, I believe that he created the world in 6
> days, including man, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and I believe that
> Jesus became a man, lived, died, rose from the grave, and will one day
> return.  I say all of that to somewhat define the label I wear.  This
> mailing list is not the place to debate the ideas above, I only bring them
> up to define my background and frame of reference.

I do not believe as you do, but I respect your truth-in-labeling and the sincerity of 
your beliefs.
> 
> Now, after having said what I said above, some of you, no doubt, have
> labeled me as a person who does not think for himself, and takes what he is
> told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that to a
> couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you want to speak
> up, now would be a good time :), but my point is simply that by classing
> myself as a Fundamentalist, I am automatically perceived to be a certain
> type of person, and believe a certain way.

Can you say "stereotype"? I knew you could! While there are Christians who fit the 
stereotype -- the seductive thing about stereotypes is that they are accurate for at 
least some of the people so-grouped -- _You_ are not part of the stereotype.

My local problems come from fundimentalist Christians who fit the stereotype closely, 
and from the silent majority who goes along with them, not from ALL Christians. 
 

>  The same is true of the
> "Christian Community's" view of RPG's.
> 
> I think it was Glenn who came up with the theory about the named demons and
> devils being listed with faries and elves and such being perceived as
> Blasphemy by religous folk.  I thin Glenn is very right, but only for a
> portion of the religous community.  I think the problem is a lack of
> understanding about the normal RPGer in the Christian Community and the lack
> of understanding of the normal Christian in the RPG community.  Which of the
> RPGer's of which of the Christians get the press?  The normal ones, or the
> ones that exist on the fringe and carry out their beliefs or hobby (as the
> case may be) to the extreme?  Being a member of both communities, I can tell
> you that it is not the normal ones.

"Dog Bites Man" is news; the reverse isn't.

> 
> Boiling this down is kinda tough, but I think the main problem is a lack of
> an accurate perception by both groups of the other.  I don't know how much
> can be done to "fix" this situation, though.  I don't know how many of you
> would sit down long enough to let me clear up the misconceptions of
> Christianity.  I don't think this would happen much for 2 reasons:
> 
>      1. Finding all the misconceptions is not easy, many of them are so old,
> that they seem as fact to the one that doesn't understand.

There's also the "big lie" phenomenon: repeat something long enough, it becomes 'truth.'
I'm referring to the _misconceptions_, not to ANYONE's belief system. [The previous 
sentence was brought to you by the Nomex Co, makers of flame-proof underwear.] Repeat 
the misconceptions enough, they eventually become truth.

>      2. Many of you probably don't care enough about religion to sit and
> listen to the explanations.  This is not a flame or insult.  It is the same
> thing as me not wanting Leonard or one of the other Engineering types to
> explain the details of quantum physics to me, I just am not that interested.

_I_ care about _my_ faith (NeoPagan), and in the interests of comity in a world where my 
religion is a minority -- not to mention my interest in self-preservation -- I _have_ to 
listen. No insult taken, or meant. This is a reasoned discussion, right?
> 
> These same two reasons are true of those in the religous community about
> RPG's.  That is, their misconceptions are so deeply rooted that finding them
> all would be difficult, and they really don't care that much about Role
> Playing to learn what those misconceptions are.  The problem arises when
> someone, out of ignorance or based on these misconceptions, speaks out
> against the other group.  It is then that attitudes are charged up and
> people get defensive rather than calmly explaining what they misunderstand.
> 
> Having said all of this, from my experience, the main problem
> (misconception) that most religous groups have with RPG's is the fact that
> someone plays God (the GM).  While this is true in a sense, we, as RPGer's
> see the difference, but they, as religous, don't.

I've _never_ heard this as the reason that religious groups attack RPGs, but it makes a 
twisted kind of sense.

> Why don't they see the
> difference?  many different reasons, but they all boil down to one simple
> one, they don't want to.
> 
> Well, now that I've added my fuel to the fires, I think I'm done ranting and
> raving, I will turn the soapbox over to whoever else wants a turn. :)

Nice post; no ranting, no raving, and for me it was relatively tinder-free.

- --Rich "Different Strokes for Different Folks" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #505
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 506

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Coptright . . . or wrong ;)
         2. Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.
         3. Re: Cleon & The marches
         4. SCDS squestions
         5. Re: T4 Book 2 ? Need campaign help...
         6. Re: Casting Stones
         7. Re: T4 Quality Control
         8. Re: Casting Stones
         9. Re: Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)
        10. Re: Help with the animals!
        11. Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!
        12. Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!
        13. Re: female characters
        14. Re: Playing to win
        15. Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 
        16. Re: Casting Stones
        17. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
        18. Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:04:54 -0700
Subject: Coptright . . . or wrong ;)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Eris
> 
> [Homer owns the trademark on my name.  No, I don't mean Homer
> Simpson!  <g>]

I thought the Discordians had that one . . . as in "Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!" 
<evil, evil grin>


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 13:09:44 -0700
Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On  4 Oct 96 at 13:42, Paul Walker spewed:
> 
> > Hey Stu, didn't she forget Beer?  :)
> 
> Yup...  Microbrewed beer, and single-malt Scotch whiskey, to be
> precise...  :-)

Mead, Guiness Stout, single-malt Scotch and a wee dram o' Irish for me.

Wine is fine, but Guiness is next to ghodliness ;)

> 
> Other than that, it sounds like I got my priorities straight, eh?

Mu-brew is also good. Homebrew is even better.

Rich "I feel a need for some MEAD" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 17:13:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>      What's so important about the Spinward Marches?  Well, two big things
> are the Ancients howeworld and the proximity to Zhodane.  While the first
> wouldn't have been known in the early 3I (is there any evidence that it may
> have been Suspected even?) the second one would seemingly have been of
> pretty major importance.  It's cited that the 3I contacted Zhodani c. 50,
> and imagine what they thought: A fellow rapidly-expanding Human empire, but
> this one made of shady Psions.  No wonder they were in a hurry to grab up
> as much "land" Spinward of the Great Rift as possible-- we've got to
> establish a strategic beach-head there before the Zhos claim it and next
> thing we know they've got fleets lined up right next door to Vland!
>      Of course, the Zhos were slower to expand into the area than the
> Imperials feared, the two empires not coming into border-to-border contact
> until the 6th century, but look what happened then.  Do you think that if
> the 3I didn't have a strong presence in the area already that the Zhos
> wouldn't have continued to breeze right through Deneb and Corridor? Even
> though the Imperials get stuck patrolling the Corridor, it's still a much
> better strategic position than letting the Zhos have it, or establishing it
> as a Neutral Zone.
>      It makes sense to me, and helps explain why the early Imperium would
> have been interested in what was (at the time) a largely uninteresting and
> very remote backwater region.
> 
> Trent Smith

This is an outstanding point.  But, I see this as the increased 
importance of the Spinward Marches, because Cleon didn't even know about 
the zhos until 50 when first contact was made.  Since Cleon died just 3 
years later (referring to the MT Imperial Encyclopedia), I don't see that 
this had any impact on Cleon's policy.  See my post from earlier today 
for my opinion on what Cleon's policy was.

But...

I do think that this was a major concern for Cleon II and Artemsus.  
Remember that Cleon II, after abdicating from the thrown in favor of his 
chancellor Artemsus, "spent the rest of his long, active, colorful, and, 
from all accounts, happy, life on the frontier as a self-appointed and 
extremely effective one-man fire brigade".

I'd say that the zhos scared the hell out of Cleon II.  He decided that 
he could do more for the Imperium on the front line rather than as the 
emperor--a classic example of the "Admiral Kirk-Captain Kirk" syndrome at 
work.  

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 17:13:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SCDS squestions

SCDS, the Small Craft Design System - who do I send
questions about the draft to?  Don Perrin himself?
I sent a questions to GDW-beta, but everyone either
ignored me or was too busy doing other stuff to bother answering...

Anyways, who's responsible for that SCDS thing?

Ethan

------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:12:27 +0200
Subject: Re: T4 Book 2 ? Need campaign help...

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Victor J. Raymond wrote:
[...]
> Here's another suggestion: include with future releases of T4 a set of, say:
> *	12 patrons (as in 76 patrons)
> *	4 Amber zones
> *	possibly an outline of a longer campaign with adventure ideas.
> But, please, in the name of the Emperor, avoid getting it mixed in with the
> rules.

This sounds like a very good idea IMHO.  Now I really would be interested 
in hearing some thoughts from the IG crew :-}

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:06:49 +0200
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Charlie wrote:
> This list is full of Folks who are real bent over the errors in T4. Yes
> We would all like a perfect product, but that is not what We got. Most
> of Us have never done what the T4 crew has done, nor do We know what
> They had to deal with to get the Game out. Why not just deal with what
> We have and move on?

Complaining about the errors is one way of dealing with them (sorry, but 
I had to say that).  I'd really like to start my Traveller campaign but 
this annoying rulebook is just not enough (and no, I don't have 20 years 
of Traveller experience under my belt and would like to use the official 
background since otherwise I'd use a better system if I had a to design 
my own background -- CORPS for example).

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:10:39 +0200
Subject: Re: T4 Quality Control

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> On  4 Oct 96 at 17:13, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:
> > ones, but I've much worse from much larger companies.  Anybody out
> > there ever look at the first edition of Gamma World?  Somebody
> > mentioned AD&D Player's Handbook 1st edition.  Heck, that was
> > Shakespeare compared to the first edition of the DM's Guide.  And by
> Actually, that was me, and I was specifically thinking of the DM 
> Guide.

>From what I remember it's editing was a little confusing, but it was 
pretty complete (can't think of any missing tables or rules) and it had 
_LOTS_ of great information for campaigns of all kind -- in contrast to 
the Traveller rulebook, which is just a skeleton.

Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:17:42 +0200
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Trent Smith wrote:
>      Must be bored, posting so many times...

Me too :-}

>      From what I've read, it seems that the only people who are really bent
> out of shape about the errors in T4 are new would-be refs who aren't sure
> what judgment calls to make due to lack of complimentary knowledge

Make this 'new refs to Traveller' and I'd fit the bill.  I have been 
GMing for over a dozen years (13? 15?  Gee, I'm getting old) and don't 
mind making judgment calls.  I just hate having to improvise when I want 
to use the official background and just making up things probably will 
create my own personal hell when finally Milieu 0 is published.

I'd rather run a SF campaign with a better rule system (CORPS e.g.) than 
right now trying to make sense of the little tidbits I received in the 
Traveller rulebook and having to invalidate half of it just to be 
remotely compatible with the official stuff.

Since IG is trying to re-establish Traveller it's very sad that I and 
probably many other 'Traveller newbies' are having this problem.  I 
really wonder how many newbies quickly will drop Traveller once more due 
to frustration about the patched rulebook.

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:30:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> Here's a thought that is probably completely off-base, but what the Hell, 
> it would explain some things:
> The first printing of T4 was intended for experienced Traveller players.  
> Thus, the previously-noted lack of information on the back cover, the 
> numerous errors, etc.

The problem is that -- as far as I can see -- the experienced Traveller 
players were not numerous enough for some years to provide a broad enough 
fan base to support a company producing the game.  I don't think this has 
changed a lot although I might be wrong.

>  They just weren't that concerned about making it 
> perfect.  Get something out there - something usable.  Make a small print 
> run, and sell them out to the hard-core Traveller gamers. 

I wouldn't call 3000 hardcovers plus softcovers a small print run (yes, 
TSR is doing 10000 printings or so of a product, but TSR s playing some 
leagues above IG).  The problem with this is, that Traveller newbies like 
me might fee tempted to play the game, buy the rules and are pretty 
disappoint.  Result: rules will be stashed away in a rather remote corner 
and the game most probably does not get a second chance.  Very bad for IG.

> In January of 1996, release the new T4, 
> error-free (thanks to all the feedback from the hard-core gamers).

I hope that it will be possible to return the patchwork available right 
now for a revised rulebook :-(  It's really of little use for me (except 
for thinking "oh well, it could have been so great... such a shame") and 
I'd be pretty annoyed at having to buy another softcover simply because 
IG decided to alpha-test the rules in the public.

> If you think this is an evil plan, blame it on the venture capitalists 
> who we assume must be funding IG.

Absolutely not.  I'm helping one of my professors right now to finish his 
first (500+ pages) book and I know how much pain flows into such a 
venture.  I'm giving IG a second chance (I also subscribed to JTAS a few 
months ago), but if the next supplement is again in such a miserable 
state, they'll lose another customer.

> In the long term everything will be OK.

I just hope that IG is able to survive till 'the long run' pays for them.

Starting with a bad reputation for miserable product quality can yield an 
untimely death.  I really hope that this won't happen, but IMHO it was a 
pretty big mistake to release the rulebook in the shape it is right now.

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:04:31 +0200
Subject: Re: Help with the animals!

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> A few days ago I saw a post asking if anyone knew how to determine the 
> attack number for animals under the T4 rules.  I've been watching to see 
> if anyone could answer--I sure can't find it in the book.  I've been 
> looking for a table like in TNE.

That was me :-)

> Do any of you know the answer?  I'm running a game tomorrow with a 
> wilderness encounter, and since I've been playing traveller since '82, 
> I'm going to feel really stupid if I skipped over it in the book.

Right now I'm considering something like 5 for generally peaceful 
animals, 7 for moderately aggressive animals and 9 for dangerous 
predators with a +/-1 adjustment depending on the individual beast.  
Nonetheless I'd still like to know the official rule :-)

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 17:43:30 -0700
Subject: Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!

Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> Niko, I have run games in the past that involved gambling of different
> kinds but have always felt that a skill in Gambling was a little
> anomalous since gambling was supposed to be about luck. Also, different
> societies and worlds have different games and events on which they
> gamble. I was often unsure as to where the Gambling skill actually came
> into effect. 

>Some players maintained that it was a combination of the
> character's ability to cheat, bluff, and assess odds. 

I believe that this is the majority of the skill.  I play poker 
regularly, but I have drawn on this skill in many other 
instances--both gambling related and not.

Figuring the odds, deciding how a player will play, gauging your 
chances to win based on the other players, and other general aspects of 
poker are easily adaptable to any other gambling game--even if you are 
only playing against a dealer.  I draw on this when I go to a casino.

But, knowing poker is much more than just playing cards.  Skill at poker 
is skill at negotiation, skill at sizing up opponents, skill at winning, 
skill at calling someone's bluff.  These are things that happen every day 
in real life--not in a poker game.

Many top business executives and politicians play poker.  Look at your 
history book.  Truman was a master poker player.

>Other refs I've
> played under say it is purely a measure of the characters breadth of
> knowledge of the games and the language of gambling that gives he/she
> credibility when trying to get into a game or play the tables.

Of course, this has some impact on the skill.  It is always beneficial if 
you know the game.

Take 5 card stud and 7 card stud.  On the face of it, they are both poker 
games and pretty similar.  One you get one card down and four up.  The 
other you get three cards down and four up.  In both, you are trying to 
make the best five card hand.

But, a good poker player will know that the average winning hand in 7 
card stud is three of a kind, and in 5 card stud, it is a pair.  This is 
knowing the game.

Just as important are the generalities, though--the things that you can 
apply to any game no matter if you know the game or not. 

For instance, in both 5 and 7 card stud, your chances of winning are 
directly influenced by how many people are playing.  The more people 
playing, the better hand you have to have to win.  

I said that the average winning hand in 7 card stud is 3 of a kind.  If 
you've got 3 of a kind and are playing with 3 other people, then your 
chances of winning are pretty good depending on what is showing and how 
the others have been playing.  But, if you've got 3 of a kind, and you 
are playing against 5 to 6 others, then your little 3 of a kind isn't 
that good after all.  Chances are that someone out there has a straight, 
flush, or full house.    

In sum, what I'm trying to say is that, yes, I agree that knowing a game 
is a good sized portion of the gambling skill.  But, more importantly, 
skill at gambling can be used in a variety of situations whether it be 
winning at a game the character has never played before or gauging his 
success at pulling off a bluff with the spaceport customs official.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 18:04:36 -0700
Subject: Re: ..its Lazy Nag by a length and a half!

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Niko, I have run games in the past that involved gambling of different
> > kinds but have always felt that a skill in Gambling was a little
> > anomalous since gambling was supposed to be about luck.
> 
> Obviously, you *haven't* done much gambling. Craps and roulette are
> about luck. Cards games are about skill. And a lot of forms of gambling
> will pay off if you know how to best place your bets and when not to bet.

My point exactly--wish I could have said it that clearly.



> 
> > Also, different
> > societies and worlds have different games and events on which they
> > gamble. I was often unsure as to where the Gambling skill actually came
> > into effect. Some players maintained that it was a combination of the
> > character's ability to cheat, bluff, and assess odds. Other refs I've
> > played under say it is purely a measure of the characters breadth of
> > knowledge of the games and the language of gambling that gives he/she
> > credibility when trying to get into a game or play the tables.
> 
> I'd say it reflects knowledge of the rules, and of the *odds*. If both
> of us know the rules, but I know the odds better than you, I can come
> out ahead.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)



Leonard, I'd say we are 'one' on this.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 18:20:50 -0700
Subject: Re: female characters

Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> <<a bit o' deletia>>
> >
> > My most recent
> > female character was in Shadowrun. Her name was Kristy Lane and was an
> > Organisational Change Specialist (Corp) with a custom designed medium
> > pistol called the 'Baretta Legionaire'. I have to admit she was modelled
> > somewhat from the character in the French movie 'Nikita' or in the
> > American re-make 'The Assasin'.
> 
> The American remake starred Bridgette Fonda, IIRC, but the title was not "The Assassin."
> Good movie, just caught it on teevee a few weeks ago, but I can't remember the title
> right now.
> 
> --Rich Ostorero
> stormhvn@inreach.com

It was just an 'OK' movie--two out of five stars.  The original was "La 
Femme Nikita" (subtitled in French), and the Americal remake was "Point 
of No Return".

Hey, what'd you expect from a filmmaker?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:26:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing to win

Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:
> 
> Rob Prior wrote:
> > When I play a competitive game, I play to win, and expect my opponent to do
> > me the same courtesy.  After all, competition is part of the game.  I
> > regularly get pasted at Chinese chess by my students, but as long as they
> > don't gloat and explain (after the game) what I did wrong/they did right I
> > don't mind.
> 
> If you learn from your mistake, then you've won in a way
> If you huff and puff and complain about card order, infer cheating on your opponent's
> part, then you've really lost
 
Take 3
I find that half the fun of games is the interaction of the Players. I
find that those Folks who want a tuff well fought game are prime Targets
for the old mind fu**. They play to win and I play them for yucks. Sure
I lose but it sure is fun. This is not a plan that works all the time
for all games or all players just an alternitive to winning.
                                                                            
Charlie

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:03:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

Kenneth,

> Here's something else for your T4 errata:
[snip]
> So I looked at the travel formula.  Eventhough the formula is right as 
> printed, IG left out the paragraph on converting the familiar units of 
> space travel--like the G rating--to the units used in the formula.
[snip]

I'll come right out and say it: I don't use the travel formula.  Now that 
that is out of the way, would I be incorrect in saying that the final 
paragraph on page 98 has the information you are looking for in it?  I 
honestly don't know, since I never have used the travel formula.

In my letter to IG, I did recommend that this information (the final 
paragraph on page 98) be moved to Chapter 9 (p. 115), so that all this 
information is in the same location.  (Er, actually, I recommended that 
everything from p 96's "Starship Economics" to the end of chapter 8 be 
moved to Chapter 9 - it seems to make more sense to group all that info 
together.)

Anyway, I hope this helps.  And, whether I am right or wrong about the 
info you need, please let me know!

Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:04:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> MT is my current Traveller system of choice, and probably will be 
> until I see some more stuff produced for T4...
> 
> Since MT's character generation system is basically that of CT 
> including Supplement 4: Citizens, and the Advanced Systems of Books 
> 4-7, this is for the most part incorrect...

It's interesting just how much mis-information is propogated through 
UseNET.  

Thanks for the definitive answer, Stu.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Suzette Dollar <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:28:47 -0700
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Paul Walker wrote:
> SNIP

> Now, after having said what I said above, some of you, no doubt, have
> labeled me as a person who does not think for himself, and takes what he is
> told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that to a
> couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you want to speak
> up, now would be a good time :), 

(Paul, from the sound of things you don't need my moral support but since you 
hinted so loudly...)

First off, I do not share Paul's beliefs.  I was raised in the Jewish faith, but 
do not practice any form of organized religion.  I believe in evolution, not 
creationism, and, while I do believe that there is something out there be it 
fate, kizmet, God, destiny, a higher power of whatever sort, that higher power 
and I are going to have to work things out between ourselves without any 
rituals, prayers, etc.  I am what I am and I try to be a good person and 
he/she/it will just have to judge me by that.

That said, I am also pretty leary of anyone who is very religious.  Much of my 
experience with strongly religious people has been that they tend to spout what 
they hear from ministers, etc. as gospel without any thought of their own.  Paul 
has proven to give the Bible thought and is willing to and has given 
interpretations of his own.  Paul has my respect for that, and is one of very 
few I'd be willing to have a second discussion about religion with.  (I'll have 
a first discussion about *anything* with anyone, but....).

(Ok, Paul, was that what you wanted?  <g>)


Suz

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:10:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Deadly Game Meme (longish)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Glenn Grant wrote:

> Actually, I'm suggesting that the Fundies don't know what their real
> motivations are. 

Ah, my mistake - I misunderstood you.  

Actually, your theory as stated above is more realistic anyway - people 
(including me!) generally do like and dislike things for "gut-level" 
reasons more often than one might expect.  A lot of times, when someone 
tells me the reason they like or dislike something, they end up 
rationalizing their feeling after the fact.


> >Then some kids go nuts and think the world of D&D is real
> [chop]
> 
> Ah, but have any real kids actually ever "gone nuts and taken D&D for
> reality"? Personally, I've never seen a report of such a case in any
> credible news media. 

Good point.  I have not seen any solid evidence of this ever happening 
either.

'Sides, we'd know about it - we would have heard about the court cases 
arising from this sort of behavior.  "TSR killed my baby!" ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 507

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Playing to win
         2. Re: T4 is for newbies
         3. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
         4. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
         5. Re: T4 newbies rant
         6. Re: Re: Another Animal Bug
         7. Re: I am going to give it a go...
         8. Re: Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)
         9. The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)
        10. Re: Silly adventure idea
        11. Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 
        12. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        13. Re: Cleon & The marches
        14. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        15. Re: My hobbies...
        16. Re: Cleon & The Marches
        17. Re: female characters
        18. Re: Playing to win
        19. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:12:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Playing to win

On 7 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Hm.  I think that's the key phrase back there: "as long as they don't gloat".
>  Sort of goes along with adult behaviour patterns.  

I agree that it's a a behavior that would be associated with an "adult" 
attitude - too bad more adults don't behave that way, though. :)

Still, the problem remains: what do you do when an adult goes up against 
a kid in a competitive game like Magic: The Gathering?  If the adult 
wins, the kid may be upset.  If the adult wins and gloats...what do you 
do? 

Should they have officials all over the place checking for gloating, and 
ejecting gloaters from the convention?

It's a thorny issue.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:16:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 is for newbies

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Robert Flammang wrote:

> >things.  Right now, IG really doesn't have a product that is useful to 
> >new gamers and those unfamiliar with Traveller.  They won't have that 
> >until all of this year's supplements are out, and the revised T4 is 
> >available.  
> 
> Whoa! I gotta disagree with Joe and Thomas on this point. Right now, IG
> does not have a product that is critically useful to OLD gamers and
> those FAMILIAR with Traveller. T4 was designed with the new player in
> mind.

Rob,

I don't think we're in disagreement.  T4, as-is, is NOT something I would 
give a new gamer.  There are too many errors, and too much stuff you'd 
have to figure out on your own.  

T4, once it is error-free, WILL be something for new gamers.

The main T4 rule book, now and in the future, is NOT for hard-core 
Traveller players either.  That's what the book "levels" will bring 
about.  Basic stuff will have red lettering on the spine, intermediate 
stuff will have...yellow? I forget...and advanced stuff (the new 
FF&S/Naval Archetect's Handbook, for instance) will have a third color 
(sorry, I've forgotten the colors already!).

So, I don't think we're in disagreement.


> IG, you've got a great new product on your hands.

See?  Total agreement. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:10:09 -0400
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

At 1:49 PM -0400 10/7/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Thinking back, L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s Ecolitan novels should also be on the
>> list.
>
>As well as his "Forever Hero" stuff. And I'm beginning to get odd
>suspicions about the upcoming "Fall of Angels" in his Recluse "fantasy"
>series.

Thanks for reminding me of the Forever Hero stuff - I was going nuts trying
to remember the name.  I'll have to hunt down the Recluse stuff, I haven't
seen it yet - could you email me a list of titles?

Also, Foster's Flinx series has aspects I've nicked for my campaign.

And any number of histories about the Roman or Byzantine Empire, with a
little fall of the Czars thrown in as well.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

Alferd Packer ate five prospectors whom he was guiding over a high Colorado
plateau in 1874.  The Judge who sentenced Packer to hang indignantly
pointed out that "There was only six Democrats in all of Hinsdale County
and you ate five of them."



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:21:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that to a
> couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you want to speak
> up, now would be a good time :), but my point is simply that by classing

I don't have much to say in this argument, but since Paul wanted a 
character reference:  Paul and I discussed religion on the IRC #traveller 
channel one night (and why aren't you folks on there more often? :), and 
I found him to be on stiff-necked son-of-a-gun.

Just kidding.  Paul and I talked about fundamentalist dogma a bit, and 
he's open-minded.  I was impressed that he researched various religions 
before deciding on the Baptist church.  He told me that he doesn't agree 
with everything they teach (ie, the official Baptist stance on dance is 
that all forms are evil; all rock-and-roll is evil (even Christian 
rock-and-roll); women wearing pants is wrong; etc.). 

Paul has an open mind, and approaches religion intelligently.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:22:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 newbies rant

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Robert Flammang wrote:

> My message came of as a little rantish. I want to apologize to Joe and
> Thomas for sounding more hot-headed than I had a right to. (I guess this
> subject is a little closer to my heart than I would have thought. 8^)

I appreciate the apology, but I really didn't take it as being 
hot-headed.  You just strongly disagreed with what you thought were my 
views on the subject.  I didn't see any name calling or denigration of 
Thomas or I, even by implication.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:37:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Another Animal Bug

Rob,

I'm forwarding this reply to IG and Ken Whitman, since it is something I 
missed when editing T4...


On 7 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> > >While looking for the base animal hit number (and not finding it), I
> noticed
> > >another bug in the animal encounter table system.
> > >
> > >On page 142, under Animal Characteristics, it states that the a score of
> A7
> > >means that the animal attacks on a roll of 7 or less.  This is opposite
> the
> > >CT system, in which the number had to be equalled or exceeded.
> 
> >Rob -
> >Strangely, I just looked it up, and Animal Characteristics (p 144) states 
> >that the roll is X+, not X-.  But I must be missing something.  I tried p 
> >142 as you suggested, and I couldn't find what you were referring to.  
> >Can you give me more of a hint as to where the rule you reference is stated?
> 
> 
> This is getting really strange.  I have my softcover open in front of me now,
> and on page 142, in the upper left-hand column, under Animal Characteristics,
> it states: 
> 
> "A indicates attack predisposition. A7 would indicate that the animal will
> attack on a roll of 7-..."

Huh. So it does!


> I have checked page 144, and you are right, _there_ it gives the roll as 7+. 
> This agrees with the numbers on the table on page 152.

Looks to me like p. 142 should be changed to reflect what is said on p 
144, and the reference on p 144 should be dropped.

Although I still strongly advocate going to a X- system throughout the 
book, which would mean instead dropping the stuff on p. 144 and updating 
the Animal Characteristics Table (and the Regina example) accordingly.


> However, if the number is to be equalled or exceeded, then the table on page
> 152 has some pretty brave grazers: 13+ to flee!  You just can't get this
> number on a 1D-1 roll (as per the table on 152).
> 
> Just noticed, the table also has the atack/flee stats for animals 9-12 in the
> wrong order: carnivores should test for attack first, and these have fleeing
> listed first.

Looks like we have a mix-n-match system right now.  This should 
definitely be corrected!

In the edited verson of T4 I sent to Ken Whitman today, I did note the 
problem with the Encounter Table for Regina, by the way.

Thanks for spotting that error, Rob!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:43:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I disagree whole heartedly, Joe.  I own a business, and most of my 
> players are professionals.  We have careers and families to attend to.  
> This is not like it was in High School when I could spend a week working 
> on the adventure before my gaming group meets.  

Kenneth,

I guess we'll just have to disagree then.   I have a professional career 
and all that, but I try not to let it interfere with my hobbies. ;)


> I LIKE adventures that do as much work for the GM as possible.  I like to 
> see pre-generated NPC's.  I want to see all the equipment detailed.  I 
> want maps, diagrams, and deck plans.  Heck, I want the whole system 
> detailed in case the adventure takes a spur to one of the outer planets.

Hmmm.  I want that, too.  That's what I meant.  I just don't want every 
encounter mapped out before-hand.  If you have the old GDW-published CT 
adventures, take a look - that's what I want.  Lots of background, NPC 
stats, maps, deck plans, and all the other necessities.  But they give 
you an overview of the adventure, not a step-by-step process for running 
it (i.e., players start at A, then go to B, then C, then D - with no 
provision for going from A to D, or D to A for that matter).  Give the 
details about the situation and background, and my group will work the 
rest out.

I just can't stand adventures that expect me to herd the PC's from place 
to place to suit some author's story line.

Maybe we aren't disagreeing after all.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:57:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

> The problem is that -- as far as I can see -- the experienced Traveller 
> players were not numerous enough for some years to provide a broad enough 
> fan base to support a company producing the game.  I don't think this has 
> changed a lot although I might be wrong.

Thomas,

Right.  There are relatively few Traveller players out there right now.


> I wouldn't call 3000 hardcovers plus softcovers a small print run (yes, 

I wouldn't have either - except that the sofcovers sold out almost 
immediately, and there are only about 300 hardcovers left.

Clearly, demand is exceeding supply.  No one knows how many more 
Traveller rulebooks are in demand right now...but I would guess that, 
once word gets out there (after all, there has been no advertisement at this 
point - a ton of RPGers don't even know there is a new Traveller out -- 
or even what Traveller /is/!), there will be a demand for about twice the 
number that has already been sold, and these will be sold over the next year 
(conservative estimate). 

Sound unreasonable?

If not, consider what that means:  within a little over a year, the 
owners of the first printing will be only 1/3 of all those who purchased 
Traveller...and that percentage will just continue to shrink as IG sells 
more and more T4 rulebooks over time.


> TSR is doing 10000 printings or so of a product, but TSR s playing some 
> leagues above IG).  The problem with this is, that Traveller newbies like 
> me might fee tempted to play the game, buy the rules and are pretty 
> disappoint.  Result: rules will be stashed away in a rather remote corner 
> and the game most probably does not get a second chance.  Very bad for IG.

I think IG's first printing of T4 will only lose them customers who they 
never really had in the first place.  That is, those who weren't serious 
about getting into T4 anyway.  The game-of-the-week crowd, if you will.

Those who are serious about it should be able to work around all the 
errors - except for the missing jump-drive table, which they can get by 
either going to IG's web site or getting the errata sheet (which I assume 
IG will distribute to game stores shortly - an errata sheet was included 
with the hardbound copies that went out recently).  


> I hope that it will be possible to return the patchwork available right 
> now for a revised rulebook :-(  It's really of little use for me (except 
> for thinking "oh well, it could have been so great... such a shame") and 
> I'd be pretty annoyed at having to buy another softcover simply because 
> IG decided to alpha-test the rules in the public.

I'd love to be able to turn my books back in as well...but I'd settle for 
being able to /buy/ a hardcover copy of the revised rules.  I want a 
perfect copy of T4 so badly I can taste it.  (Thus the long hours spent 
cutting and pasting itty-bitty labels to make corrections in my hardbound 
copy.)


> > If you think this is an evil plan, blame it on the venture capitalists 
> > who we assume must be funding IG.
> 
> Absolutely not.  I'm helping one of my professors right now to finish his 
> first (500+ pages) book and I know how much pain flows into such a 
> venture.  I'm giving IG a second chance (I also subscribed to JTAS a few 
> months ago), but if the next supplement is again in such a miserable 
> state, they'll lose another customer.

I hope they don't lose you as a customer.  

As I've said before, I'll give IG two more chances.  If Starships is in 
bad shape, I'll let it slide.  But if CSC comes out with loads of errors, 
I'm outta here.  I'll be using CT.

But I really don't think I'll have to follow through on that pledge.  The 
people who run and work for IG are /not/ the type of people who put out 
slipshod product because they don't care.  T4 was a victim of the (now 
well-known) circumstances extant during its "birth."  


> > In the long term everything will be OK.
> 
> I just hope that IG is able to survive till 'the long run' pays for them.

You and me both.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:57:09 -0700
Subject: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> The Phoenix cleverly quipped:
> 
> >Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone
> >could possibly need.  42.
> 
> >(sorry, I had a sudden urge to do that.  If anyone hates me now feel
> >free to say so, but before you get too mad, I can contribute many
> >things better than this.  Well, at least some people think so...) :-)
> 
> Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?
> 
> hehehee                         ---Boyd

The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:12:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In Lary Niven's Known Space universe, the General Products hull is a
> type of "unobtanium". It's an artificially strengthened molecule, just
> about indestructible, and transparent to visible light in the frequency
> ranges of the customers. The hulls come in a limited number of sizes
> and shapes, and you specify any openings in advance.

Your description falls just a little short. The hull is not truly
indestructible...in one of Niven's stories, one such hull disintegrates
upon coming in contact with antimatter (admittedly somewhat rare in
Core). Also, the hull is/can be made transparent (at time of
manufacture)
to non-visible light frequencies and all versions are most definitely
transparent to gravitons (one crew was crushed to paste when they got a
little too close to the gravity waves of a neutron star).

The Ringworld RPG, published by Chaosium, gives a pretty good
description
of hull armor effects, etc. It may be worth looking up a copy for
conversion.  Then again, with Runequest and Call of Cthulu supplying low
tech and psi rules, why convert...whoa, now there's a thought (light 
bulb!)

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:16:46 -0700
Subject: Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 

Joe Walsh wrote (in response to my inquiry about the travel formula):

> I'll come right out and say it: I don't use the travel formula.  Now that
> that is out of the way, would I be incorrect in saying that the final
> paragraph on page 98 has the information you are looking for in it?  I
> honestly don't know, since I never have used the travel formula.
> 
> In my letter to IG, I did recommend that this information (the final
> paragraph on page 98) be moved to Chapter 9 (p. 115), so that all this
> information is in the same location.  (Er, actually, I recommended that
> everything from p 96's "Starship Economics" to the end of chapter 8 be
> moved to Chapter 9 - it seems to make more sense to group all that info
> together.)
> 
> Anyway, I hope this helps.  And, whether I am right or wrong about the
> info you need, please let me know!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Joe
> 

Well kiss my sweet bejeezus, there it sits on page 98.  

When I was looking at the travel formula on page 115, I should have 
thought to skip back 17 pages, to the chapter before, to find the 
information that describes the formula.

What in the world was IG thinking?

Anyway, thanks for the info, Joe.

I've got two more questions for you.  The first is put forth in my post 
titled "It seems impossible...".   What are you thoughts there?

The second topic is that, if you don't use the travel formula, what do 
you use.  I'd like to hear your replacement.

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:29:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

> Interesting, almost all the Christians I know, myself included, balk at the
> label.  IMO, it represents an attitude wherein the letter of the law, so to
> speak, is emphasized over the spirit -- to the detriment of people.

Read Terry Pratchett's novel Small Gods, this gives the same perspective with a 
humourous bent

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:45:11 +0000
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> > (Which makes me wonder if a lot of diplomats way away from Capital still
> > went around calling it the 'Sylean Federation' for decades after year 0,
> > thinking this whole "Imperium" fad would just pass on...)
> 
> I'd buy this.

Take a look at I, Claudius and Claudius the God (Books by R Graves)
He was reluctantly the emperor (he believed in the republic), but there were others that 
figured this whole empire thing would pass after the first emperor finished restoring the 
glory of Rome. But it never happened

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:47:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Rich Ostorero wrote:
Tri-Tac is the company behind "The Morrow Project" -- a GREAT post-holacaust RPG 
that has a LOT of nasty mutated beasties that would fit into Trav. They're in Michigan, 
and they even have a Web page (check out www.io.com/sjgames for a big honking list 
of game company links).

Try searching for Richard Tucholka, he is the writer

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:48:56 +0000
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

Rich Ostorero wrote:

> Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . . and you can't
> believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell people about the Society for
> Creative Anachronism. They think the initials stand for "Satan's Church in America."

I though it stood for Society for Creative Anarchism

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:51:06 +0000
Subject: Re: Cleon & The Marches

Ethan Henry wrote:
> There are tolerant people and there are intolerant people. I don't
> think there's any real correlation between lever of tolerance
> and religous belief - it just happens that in America, the intolerant
> (largely right-wing) population happens to be Christian and they use
> the Bible as their justification. Christians allso have a historical
> tradition of "spreading the word" - thus their interest in making
> you see the errors of your ways. Not all Christians are like this
> though. I dunno, I've learned a lot about religion in general since
> meeting my wife (who is currently pursuing her MA in Religous Studies)
> and if there's one thing I've discovered, it's that people will use the
> same words to describe two very different belief systems more often than
> not. (I suppose I don't have much of a point, other than Christian
> != wacko fundie).

I once read in a magazine a comment about religious fundies....
In America, they raise a stink, in the Mid-East they just kill you (they specifically 
mentioned Anwar Sadat)

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:55:30 +0000
Subject: Re: female characters

Rich Ostorero wrote:

> The American remake starred Bridgette Fonda, IIRC, but the title was not "The Assassin."
> Good movie, just caught it on teevee a few weeks ago, but I can't remember the title
> right now.

Point of no Return=American version
La Femme Nikita=french version

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:01:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Playing to win

Charlie wrote:
> Take 3
> I find that half the fun of games is the interaction of the Players. I
> find that those Folks who want a tuff well fought game are prime Targets
> for the old mind fu**. They play to win and I play them for yucks. Sure
> I lose but it sure is fun. This is not a plan that works all the time
> for all games or all players just an alternitive to winning.

Playing to break even is a legit tactic
(and the mind is a wondeful thing to play with)

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 17:25:33 -0700
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

Richard L. Sezov wrote:
> 
>  Paul Walker stated:
> 
> >Hey, just here to add my .02 gal of fuel to the fire.
> 
> >I have been reading Boyd, Richard, John, and others converse about
> You can call me Rich. My wife's the only one who calls me Richard, and
> that's only when she's yelling at me :)

Same here. My ex, the DMV and DVA call me Richard. Soph calls me Dad. The rest of the 
universe (except the SCA) calls me Rich, too ;)
> 

> 
> I believe the same thing. I would also add the *reason* for which Christ
> died: to pay the penalty for the sins of His people, those who trust in Him
> as Savior and Lord. My official label would read "Reformed
> Presbyterian."
> 
>
> 
> I guess I, as well, am guilty of generalizing based on labels. In my
> experience (which is by no means, of course, exhaustive),
> "fundamentalists" always meant those Christians who, while being true
> believers, add a lot of extra rules, like "playing cards is evil," "movies are
> evil," etc. Please forgive me for incorrectly labeling you that way.

Like the joke in the movie Rob Roy: "Why do Luthrens never (make love) standing up? They 
think that doing that leads to _dancing_. Why don't they ever add the rule: Barney The 
Dinosaur is Evil . . . ;)
> 
>
> 
> I think you've hit the nail right on the head there.
> 
>
>
> 
> Again, good points!
> 
> >These same two reasons are true of those in the religous community
> >about
> >RPG's.  That is, their misconceptions are so deeply rooted that finding
> >them all would be difficult, and they really don't care that much about
> >Role
> >Playing to learn what those misconceptions are.  The problem arises
> Although it's not impossible. I've just convinced my Pastor and the
> Session of my church to let me Referee DragonRaid every Wednesday
> night for the youth group (DragonRaid is the Christian Role-Playing Game
> I mentioned in an earlier post).

> 
> I think we all need to be less judgmental until we have looked at all the
> facts. I know why I don't play D&D, probably better than those Christians
> who have picketed game stores. Why? Because I actually played the
> game and examined it for myself. But I'm not going to say that gaming in
> general is evil--I rather enjoy it as a hobby. People shouldn't
> over-generalize. It always gets them into trouble.
> 
>Well said, Rich.

- --Rich "Nobody's Evil Twin" Ostorero
stormhcn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #507
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 508

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: RED ZONE: An adventure - Long Reply
         2. Re: Social Acceptance...
         3. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
         4. JO GRANT, are you out there?
         5. Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 
         6. majordomo results--It seems impossible...
         7. Psionicist Generation
         8. It seems impossible...
         9. Re: Playing to win
        10. Re: Social Acceptance...
        11. RE:  Gambling
        12. RE: Female Gamers
        13. Re: Psionicist Generation
        14. Re: Cmdr Hold'Em 's comments
        15. Sorry
        16. It seems impossible...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:12:38 -0700
Subject: Re: RED ZONE: An adventure - Long Reply

First of all, if anyone reading this is in Alan's campaign,
STOP, STOP, STOP!

Reading any further could completely ruin a very good time.

With that said and my deepest apologies to Alan if the
following trashes a good run, I offer the following:

Alan Shock wrote:
> > if anyone messes with the machinery, it will awaken. (If any of you
> > remember the adventure "Demon Dark" in CHALLENGE 58 by Michael R.
> > Mikesh, you'll know what this is...)

I responded:
> >Remember something that caused 90% casualties among my crew?
> >You betcha...

Richard L. Sezov wrote:
> Can somebody enlighten those of us who don't have Challenge 58?

The answer is:

In the adventure entitled "Demon Dark", through one plot vehicle or
another, an intrepid band of adventurers are led to mate airlocks with
a 200 year old derelict Close Escort called the Gina Bounder. To quote
the adventure, "As the PCs explore the Gina Bounder...a malicious and
powerful psionic being from the time of the Ancients was awakened...."

This thing was nothing less than a Terminator 2-type android designed
specifically to annihilate human servants of rival Droyne factions
during
the Ancients' Final War. The crew of the Gina Bounder brought it onboard
when they picked up some Ancient artifacts for transport back to a Navy
base for study.  The "demon" had *all* psi abilities, including the ones
normally available only to Droyne, plus the "Special" of being able to
generate a field which absorbed all visible light...including lasers up
to TL12! All this in addition to high levels of Strength, Dexterity,
Unarmed Combat, and Tactics, and decent levels of Stealth and Zero-G 
combat. Even if the airlocks weren't mated, the d**n thing could
teleport
using Telepathy/Clairvoyance to find the location of the PCs' crew and,
thereby, their ship (and did).

Take the Ultimate Psionic Nightmare, mix it with Arnold Swarzenegger and
Bruce Lee, and set it loose on a group of unsuspecting PCs...get the
idea?

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:11:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance...

Warning! Rant to Follow...

I should think its not accurate to stereotype RPG'ers.  Yes, RPG's aren't
widely accepted but that, I think, is because most people don't understand
what Roleplaying is. Even so, the Gamer defy's definition in many ways.  I'm
a straight A student, never did drugs, and never been in the trouble that
many associate with Gamer's.  The only thing that is Truly common between
Gamers I think is keen imagination and the love for the game.  Without
imagination you can't really play and without love for the game most won't
play anyway.  IMHO 8^]





------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 18:35:23 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

> Date:          Mon, 07 Oct 1996 09:39:55 +0000
> From:          "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:       Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > As for the missing table (and really there is only 1 of any
> > consequence), we knew about this back in July, when Guy Garnett
> > realized it had not been forwarded to them with the rest of the stuff
> > for QSDS right before the deadline...  It should have come as no shock to
> > anybody on this list...
> 
> First of all, I resent you saying I spewed anything.
> I am sick of all game companies having ubiquitous errors, and I am sick of people 
> justifying it
> Next, I guess I shouldn't be shocked then when this never improves either?
> It never did for GDW
> 


Time out!  The "spewed" thing is Stu's standard line... our e-mail 
reader allows you to customize how the quote is preceded... this is 
merely his sense of humor and applies to posts he is applauding as 
well as anything he's being critical of... if you don't believe me 
watch his other posts.

Now, as for anything else he said, he's on his own!

Suz 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:48:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: JO GRANT, are you out there?

Hi, this is a message to Jo Grant.  I've been trying to reach you for a
week now, but my messages are being bounced.  Please get in touch with me
at your earliest convenience.

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:48:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: (to Joe Walsh) Random Thoughts 

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Well kiss my sweet bejeezus, there it sits on page 98.  

Yaay!  I didn't even know what I was talking about, but I was right 
anyway. :D


> When I was looking at the travel formula on page 115, I should have 
> thought to skip back 17 pages, to the chapter before, to find the 
> information that describes the formula.

Well...duh!  What made you think it wouldn't be under, "Trade Customs," 
anyway? :)

But seriously...

If you look on page 113 (chapter 8), you'll se that the Travel Formulae 
table appears there as well as on page 115 (chapter 9).  Which, along 
with other clues, leads me to believe....

> What in the world was IG thinking?

IG either had the computer file from GDW that contained the contents of 
The Traveller Book (it would almost certainly have been in a different 
format - not MS-DOS - but there are companies who transfer files from old 
computer disk formats/program formats to new ones), or they had someone 
type in the entire Traveller Book contents.  Then, they took that and 
modified it as necessary to make it into T4.

Evidence:  Portions (paragraphs, sections, almost entire chapters) are 
word-for-word from the Traveller Book, some modified slightly (and some 
in need of slight modification in order to fit with the new rules).

In the context in which T4 was created (short time frame, new company 
with people trying to learn how to work together effeciently, last-minute 
fan-demanded (and supplied!) changes, etc.), some of this stuff was put 
in the wrong section, some was never modified appropriately, some appears 
twice (the Animal Characteristics stuff recently noted by Rob Prior, and 
the Travel Formulae), etc.

But, that's just my totally baseless theory.  I wasn't there, and no one 
at IG has said anything at all on this subject.


> Anyway, thanks for the info, Joe.

No problem.  Glad I was able to help out.


> I've got two more questions for you.  The first is put forth in my post 
> titled "It seems impossible...".   What are you thoughts there?

Uh...I must have missed that one.  Care to e-mail me a copy, and I'll 
reply to the list?  I'm sorry I missed it now!  Sometimes I go through 
these hundred-odd emails I get every day and use the delete key a bit 
more freely than I should. :(


> The second topic is that, if you don't use the travel formula, what do 
> you use.  I'd like to hear your replacement.

Well....(sheepish grin)...we just role-played it.  No worry about the 
time...we just figured it was a few hours to get from jump point to 
starport, and vice-versa, and didn't worry about it.  Other than that, 
interplanetary travel just didn't come up.  We had combats in space, but 
most often the action took place on a world's surface, or in the 
starport.  That was just our style...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:10:47 -0700
Subject: majordomo results--It seems impossible...

Oops!  Disregard the screwed up posts.

I was lost in thought, thinking about what I was saying, and not paying
attention to what I was doing.  I sent the post to the wrong address by
mistake.

I wonder if this is how IG felt when they found out there were so many
errors in T4?

Sorry, again,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:13:15 -0700
Subject: Psionicist Generation

The chapter on Psionics states the following in
regards to psionic strength: "Ratings of 13 or
more cannot be attained naturally once a character
has passed beyond age 18." Yet the Psionicist career
skill lists differentiate between "Psi Level" and 
"+1 Psi". Although the "+1 Psi" isn't explicitly
defined anywhere, I'm reading this to mean that the
training/experience Psionicists receive during
their careers can increase their Psi characteristic,
possibly beyond 12 with a max of 15.

Comments?

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:12:01 -0700
Subject: It seems impossible...

After you get through the rant, you will find a major problem with the T4
task system.

OK, here we go.

Sunday, I converted my 7 player, year long (so far), Traveller campaign
over to the new T4 rule system.  Before, I was using a house system based
on TNE but using D6 dice and the MT task system (It is just WRONG to use
any other dice with Traveller--percentile and D20 dice are for other
systems--and I don't care if the D6 system is a bell curve whereas % and
D20 are linear--I grew up with Traveller being D6, and I like it that
way).

It was a pretty easy conversion from our house system, and I must say, on
the surface, I like what IG has done in T4.  TNE had some great ideas,
especially for long time, detail oriented, gamers like myself, but the
system was just too hard and clunky to run.  I believe that the gods are
in the details, but there is something to be said for playability.  TNE
wasn't very playable.

When T4 came out, I was ecstatic.  I yearned for Traveller's return to
its roots.  I missed using the old black books and supplements.  So, I
bought T4 the second day it was available at my local gaming store here
in Houston and set about changing our house system to that detailed in
T4.

Sunday, yesterday, was the first use of the new system, and I HATE to say
it, but something just doesn't seem right.

We were on this SBD, out system from the main world.  The characters had
been 'drafted' by the local Imperial Marines for a bug hunt.  The main
world was only TL4, and the four Marines were unlucky enough to have been
in the system (SBD with an attached jump shuttle) whent the distress call
came from the station on the outer fringes of the system.  The characters
were drafted to boost their numbers, and off they went.

Upon reaching the station, they found the destruction of a ship and
several dead bodies (the race has never been seen before) floating around
the station--which was also on minimal power and had taken a tremendous
amount of damage.

The task at this point was to space walk to the station, crack the hull,
and begin exploring for answers.  One of my players wanted to find out
more about the unidentified aliens, and he suggested space walking to one
of the larger sections of the destroyed ship to see if he could somehow
salvage any information from the alien computer.

This character has computer-4 and Edu 9.  That gives him a target number
of 13.

Given the condition of the destroyed ship--there were just pieces of it
floating around, but they were large enough to walk around in to expore
sections of the hull and several decks--I decided that this had to be an
impossible throw.

I was horrified when I realized what the character had to throw for
success.  The average of 4 D6 is 14--50% of the time, 14 or less will be
thrown.  The character's target number was 13--ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW!

One of my players teaches math, and he worked out the percentage.  There
is a 44% chance that 13 or less will be thrown on 4 dice.

C'mon, guys, you've got to be kidding.  Yes, the character had a great
skill, but level 4 is not that unheard of.  A 9 Edu is even more common.
 I agree, the character was above average with his stats, BUT TO HAVE A
44% CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW JUST DOES NOT SEEM RIGHT.

Yes, I could have added in some additional DMs because of the damage to
the ship (read:  to lower the character's chance of success), but that is
redundant with regard to the difficulty levels.

To me, the high chance of success seems impossible.

So, what do all of you think about this?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:13:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Playing to win

At 09:08 PM 10/7/96 -0400, Joe Walsh wrote:

>Still, the problem remains: what do you do when an adult goes up against 
>a kid in a competitive game like Magic: The Gathering?  If the adult 
>wins, the kid may be upset.  If the adult wins and gloats...what do you 
>do? 

Two parts on this one:

1. We owe it to the hobby to provide entry venues for kids, to provide
appropriate levels of competition, to support young people and to direct
them toward good role models for their gaming (and doubly so those of us who
are parents)

2.  Having said that, if I understand the original post correctly, what we
had there was a PARENTING problem.  There are lots of games where kids face
off against adults (Bridge and Chess come immediately to mind).  Correct me
if I am wrong, but I have the impression that (a) the governing
organizations have checks and balances to keep kids out of adult competition
unless they are genuinely ready for it and (b) parents of kids involved in
such "serious" activities understand the obligation THEY have to prepare
their children for the inevitable disappointment they will face -- because
everyone loses someday.

We don't have (a) in our hobby.  Unfortunately, most parents have no
understanding of any part of gaming or of what their kids are doing in it,
so for the most part we ain't got no (b) neither.


Ah, well: at least RPG's are the least competitive of the forms.
Personally, I started as a wargamer.  I learned to lose gracefully as a
gamer.  Knock me over and I will gather three men and a dog for a last
stand; wipe me out and I will THANK you for the wonderful tactical and
strategic lessons you have taught me.  But it took a LONG time to learn how
to do that.  Thank God I played with a nice bunch of folks.

For the record, I'm NOT introducing my sons to gaming: if they discover it
for themselves later, fine.  (Now where was that fire-proof suit :-)
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:28:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance...

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Brad Urwiller wrote:

> Warning! Rant to Follow...
> 
> I should think its not accurate to stereotype RPG'ers.  Yes, RPG's aren't
> widely accepted but that, I think, is because most people don't understand
> what Roleplaying is. Even so, the Gamer defy's definition in many ways.  I'm
> a straight A student, never did drugs, and never been in the trouble that
> many associate with Gamer's.  The only thing that is Truly common between
> Gamers I think is keen imagination and the love for the game.  Without
> imagination you can't really play and without love for the game most won't
> play anyway.  IMHO 8^]

Warning!  Reply-Rant to Follow... :)

You're right, Brad.  The sad thing is, most people seem to be unable to 
use their imaginations other than in a limited fashion.  

The person who taught me Spanish in the 9th and 11th grades, John Connally 
(from whom I picked up a several phrases - you may catch me saying 
"something along these lines" every once in a while; I get that from 
him:), repeated to us several times that imagination must be exercised, 
or it will be lost.  (This may seem like a strange thing for a teacher 
of the Spanish language to be emphasizing, but Mr. Connally was a wise 
man, and he didn't let the official subject matter restrain him from 
imparting a broad range of knowledge to those who would listen.)  He 
told us to never let our imaginations wither, and lamented the fact that 
most adults have allowed theirs to die.

Another factor working against us - making us weird, in fact, just as 
having imagination does - is our ability to enjoy learning and using 
complex systems.  Look at these "games" we play!  Technical and/or 
complex subjects are part and parcel of what we do (and it's not just 
Traveller - SJG has put out some scholarly works on various subjects as 
supplements to the GURPS game; Hero Systems did a fine job of explaining 
Corporations in their supplement of that name; and, well, heck, any game 
that requires reading 200+ pages is going to be looked upon as being 
unworthy of the effort by most people).  

Each of us who referees, no matter what style of game we play, is able 
to keep a lot of rules in mind, read more pages in a month than the 
average American reads in...a year? a lifetime?, balance the wants and 
needs of several participants, keep many different plots/sub-plots in 
mind, act out many different personalities....whew!  I could go on and 
on, but you already know all this stuff.  

The average person doesn't /want/ to "work" for his fun.  Okay, I take 
that back.  There are a lot of people who are very happy working 
/physically/ during their diversionary activities, but very, very few 
want to work /mentally/ during times of relaxation.

Because we have imagination, and because we exercise our minds, we are in 
fact very atypical.  We are unusual.  We are, quite simply, weird.

If that's what they mean when they say it is weird to play RPGs, then I'm 
happy to be weird.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:42:20 -0400
Subject: RE:  Gambling

Joe said:
>>Dunno how helpful this will be, but here's what we use.  The rules are
quick'n'dirty, but they work.<<

Great!  Just the sort of thing I was hoping for!

Thanks, Joe.

Niko

------------------------------

From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:42:11 -0400
Subject: RE: Female Gamers

Simon John Harding said:
>>How did you get started in gaming?<<

I began much the same as everyone else: with AD&D.  I met another girl in my
Latin class (of all things) in college who happened to have the main books
with her between classes.  Within weeks I was gaming with a mostly female
group, the games run by a woman.

Back then I had only one other experience with GMs, and that was with a
fellow who thought that it was standard procedure -- nay, a requisite -- that
all female PCs be raped at least once per game.  Needless to say, we never
invited him to repeat his "guest DM" role again.  And it made me shy away
from expanding into other gaming groups for many years.  (Not that I was
traumatized -- I just didn't feel like exposing myself to the stupidity.)

Happily, I have met other male GMs since this time that have shown me that
the dork mentioned above was somewhat of an exception and not the rule.
 Though I have heard stories from other, embittered female gamers out there
of multiple disappointments of this magnitude and worse during their gaming
careers.  Perhaps another reason you don't see so many?

The main GM in our group once confided to me (of running games for his
college friends in the past) that the adding of female gamers into a group of
otherwise crass, testosterone-pumped Southern "good ole boys" made running a
game more bearable as it tended to cut down on the belching and farting and
beer-spitting wars and make them behave themselves with some decorum -- in
AND out of character.

Of course, we're all older, now, and know better....  ;)  Our ages range from
37 down to a tender 25.  The last 21 year-old (going on 14) that played for a
short time (who never did get the fact that noone else in the group thought
belching, farting and munchkinism were a fun and requisite part of the game)
was invited to leave, but we try not to discriminate against potential new
players based on age.

Our main GM has expressed an interest in getting some other female gamers
into the group, but there just seems to be a scarcity of us out here, as
well.

As for social acceptance....  Gaming is still considered geeky even here in
Los Angeles, and it's best not to mention it as a hobby lest you be forced to
explain in detail what it is all about to someone who really doesn't care,
anyway.  My parents never expressed any dismay in the fact that I and two of
my siblings played RPGs, even though they didn't necessarily approve of the
friends we made through it all the time.

The bulk of my own friends are gamers, writers/artists and computer geeks,
and I have little exposure to social situations beyond gaming.  It's almost a
phobia!  :)  And I vacation yearly at GenCon.  Should I seek professional
help?  ;)

And *that's* more than anyone needed to know, I am sure.

I have noticed an increase in females running about GenCon and the local
gaming conventions, and I am taking this as a positive sign that perhaps the
ratio of female to male gamers will increase.  Of course, it could just be
that the teens playing CCGs bring their little girlfriends along for moral
support....  :P  Only time will tell.

Happily a gaming geek,

Niko

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:47:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Psionicist Generation

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> The chapter on Psionics states the following in
> regards to psionic strength: "Ratings of 13 or
> more cannot be attained naturally once a character
> has passed beyond age 18." Yet the Psionicist career
> skill lists differentiate between "Psi Level" and 
> "+1 Psi". Although the "+1 Psi" isn't explicitly
> defined anywhere, I'm reading this to mean that the
> training/experience Psionicists receive during
> their careers can increase their Psi characteristic,
> possibly beyond 12 with a max of 15.

I took it to mean that you could get +1 Psi to your Psionics 
characteristic, but the maximum is 12 if the character is over 18 (which, 
unless the circumstances are very special and referee-sanctioned, should 
always be the case for player characters).  That is, if you get a 
character with a Psi score of 8, s/he can increase that level to a 
maximum of 12 during the character generation process.

At least, that's how I'll be handling it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 22:40:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Cmdr Hold'Em 's comments

>I am sick of all game companies having ubiquitous errors, and I am sick of
people 
>justifying it

Ever published anything substantial under a deadline?  I've _never_ seen
anything published without errors, game company or no, and I've been in the
publishing business since GDW was founded.  I've never seen a single student
paper submitted without errors, either, even when months were available for
writing it.  To be honest, I've seen damn few 1-page memos without at least
one error.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:49:27 -0700
Subject: Sorry

Oops!  Disregard the screwed up posts.

I was lost in thought, thinking about what I was saying, and not paying
attention to what I was doing.  I sent the post to the wrong address by
mistake.

I wonder if this is how IG felt when they found out there were so many
errors in T4?

Sorry, again,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:50:26 -0700
Subject: It seems impossible...

After you get through the rant, you will find a major problem with the T4
task system.

OK, here we go.

Sunday, I converted my 7 player, year long (so far), Traveller campaign
over to the new T4 rule system.  Before, I was using a house system based
on TNE but using D6 dice and the MT task system (It is just WRONG to use
any other dice with Traveller--percentile and D20 dice are for other
systems--and I don't care if the D6 system is a bell curve whereas % and
D20 are linear--I grew up with Traveller being D6, and I like it that
way).

It was a pretty easy conversion from our house system, and I must say, on
the surface, I like what IG has done in T4.  TNE had some great ideas,
especially for long time, detail oriented, gamers like myself, but the
system was just too hard and clunky to run.  I believe that the gods are
in the details, but there is something to be said for playability.  TNE
wasn't very playable.

When T4 came out, I was ecstatic.  I yearned for Traveller's return to
its roots.  I missed using the old black books and supplements.  So, I
bought T4 the second day it was available at my local gaming store here
in Houston and set about changing our house system to that detailed in
T4.

Sunday, yesterday, was the first use of the new system, and I HATE to say
it, but something just doesn't seem right.

We were on this SBD, out system from the main world.  The characters had
been 'drafted' by the local Imperial Marines for a bug hunt.  The main
world was only TL4, and the four Marines were unlucky enough to have been
in the system (SBD with an attached jump shuttle) whent the distress call
came from the station on the outer fringes of the system.  The characters
were drafted to boost their numbers, and off they went.

Upon reaching the station, they found the destruction of a ship and
several dead bodies (the race has never been seen before) floating around
the station--which was also on minimal power and had taken a tremendous
amount of damage.

The task at this point was to space walk to the station, crack the hull,
and begin exploring for answers.  One of my players wanted to find out
more about the unidentified aliens, and he suggested space walking to one
of the larger sections of the destroyed ship to see if he could somehow
salvage any information from the alien computer.

This character has computer-4 and Edu 9.  That gives him a target number
of 13.

Given the condition of the destroyed ship--there were just pieces of it
floating around, but they were large enough to walk around in to expore
sections of the hull and several decks--I decided that this had to be an
impossible throw.

I was horrified when I realized what the character had to throw for
success.  The average of 4 D6 is 14--50% of the time, 14 or less will be
thrown.  The character's target number was 13--ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW!

One of my players teaches math, and he worked out the percentage.  There
is a 44% chance that 13 or less will be thrown on 4 dice.

C'mon, guys, you've got to be kidding.  Yes, the character had a great
skill, but level 4 is not that unheard of.  A 9 Edu is even more common.
 I agree, the character was above average with his stats, BUT TO HAVE A
44% CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW JUST DOES NOT SEEM RIGHT.

Yes, I could have added in some additional DMs because of the damage to
the ship (read:  to lower the character's chance of success), but that is
redundant with regard to the difficulty levels.

To me, the high chance of success seems impossible.

So, what do all of you think about this?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #508
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Traveller-digest           Monday, 7 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 509

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)
         2. Re: Social Acceptance...
         3. Re: It seems impossible...
         4. RE: Gambling
         5. Re: Blasphemy, Time, and DNA -Reply
         6. Re: Mu U-CON game
         7. Re: Cleon & The marches
         8. Re: Demonology etc.
         9. Religion & RPG
        10. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        11. Re: my idea of fun
        12. Re: Silly adventure idea
        13. RE: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)
        14. RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
        15. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        16. Re: Coptright . . . or wrong ;)
        17. Re: my idea of fun
        18. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:54:40 +0000
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)

> > Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?
> > 
> > hehehee                         ---Boyd
> 
> The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?
> 

African or European?

Suz
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:04:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance...

> If that's what they mean when they say it is weird to play RPGs, then I'm 
> happy to be weird.
> 
> 
> -Joe

My usual response to being called weired is "Thank You!"

Suz 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:08:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: It seems impossible...

Kenneth,

It seems impossible...but here's your post after I thought I'd deleted 
it!  I guess TML is running slow or something, because I hadn't, in fact, 
deleted it - I hadn't seen it until now!  Strange.  Oop. And it looks 
like you just emailed me a copy as well. Sorry for the trouble!

Anyway...


On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> systems--and I don't care if the D6 system is a bell curve whereas % and
> D20 are linear--I grew up with Traveller being D6, and I like it that
> way).

[loud, vociferous agreement on this particular religious issue[G]]


> When T4 came out, I was ecstatic.  I yearned for Traveller's return to
> its roots.  I missed using the old black books and supplements.  So, I

[Agreement here, too.]


> Sunday, yesterday, was the first use of the new system, and I HATE to say
> it, but something just doesn't seem right.
[scenario snipped for brevity]
> This character has computer-4 and Edu 9.  That gives him a target number
> of 13.
[more snippage]
> I was horrified when I realized what the character had to throw for
> success.  The average of 4 D6 is 14--50% of the time, 14 or less will be
> thrown.  The character's target number was 13--ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW!
> 
> One of my players teaches math, and he worked out the percentage.  There
> is a 44% chance that 13 or less will be thrown on 4 dice.
> 
> C'mon, guys, you've got to be kidding.  Yes, the character had a great
> skill, but level 4 is not that unheard of.  A 9 Edu is even more common.
>  I agree, the character was above average with his stats, BUT TO HAVE A
> 44% CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW JUST DOES NOT SEEM RIGHT.

Yup.  If it's Impossible, it really should be Impossible.  Or, if we're 
granting that it is an RPG, and the needs of an exciting story call for 
charcters to be able to do seven impossible things before 
breakfast...okay, we find a better chance than 0% for the worst case 
scenario task roll.  Maybe 10%?  20%?  

The problem is that D6 bell curve that neither you nor I care to get rid 
of in our Traveller games.  When IG decided to adjust the # of dice 
thrown (rather than the target number) in response to the difficulty of the 
task to be achieved, they set themselves on a path toward a system that 
has no extremely difficult tasks - for those who are highly skilled with 
moderate characteristics, or moderately skilled with high characteristics.

They could have solved this (to a degree) by requiring the use of 1/2 
characteristic+skill to determine the target number, as some TMLers have 
said they will do (though you may want to adjust the # of dice as well, 
in that case).  

Me?  I'm just going to use it as-is.  In their specialties, characters 
are going to do great.  Outside of those specialties, they'll still have 
a chance...but not a great one (unless they have an awesome characteristic, 
and are performing a task related to that characteristic).  I like this 
heroic style of role-playing.


> Yes, I could have added in some additional DMs because of the damage to
> the ship (read:  to lower the character's chance of success), but that is
> redundant with regard to the difficulty levels.
> 
> To me, the high chance of success seems impossible.

It's more of a James Bond approach than a hard-science approach, that's 
for sure.  Perhaps you could try the 1/2 characteristic approach?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:11:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Gambling

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com wrote:

> Great!  Just the sort of thing I was hoping for!
> 
> Thanks, Joe.

Niko,

I'm happy to hear it might be of use to you.  If you come up with 
variants or additional rules, please post 'em...'twould be nice to have 
some more gambling rules.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 23:08:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Blasphemy, Time, and DNA -Reply

>> Objectively speaking, the existence of such things cannot be verified 
>>scientifically and so I cannot consider their existence to be fact. 
>
>That statement makes no sense. Science is a tool; you're using it as a
>religion, using it as the defining source for your beliefs. Science can't
>enter philosophical / religious realms, because it isn't equipped to do so.
>It's like trying to use a hammer to tighten a nut. Can science prove the
>existence of love? Can it prove the existence of friendship? Hate?
>Ideas? No, but we all know they exist. 

Actually, you're both sorta right.

'Science' works by disproving things.  A scientific theory is 'proved' by
failing to disprove it after exhaustive efforts to do so.  What makes demons,
angels, God, and many other beliefs nonscientific is that there is no way to
prove that these beings don't exist.  (I've always felt Thomas to be the
patron saint of scientists: the other apostles believed, but Thomas wanted
proof.)

Dragging a Traveller angle back in here (and NOT trying to open a debate
about personal beliefs), look at the Archaen Theory/Solomani Hypothesis. 
Rich Sezov shows that you can be technologically sophisticated while
disagreeing with some fundamental theories of biology.  Arguing that humans
must have evolved on Earth because of the fossil record wouldn't cut any ice
with Rich's many-times-removed descendant.

Rich: could you project your church's possible reaction(s) to established
Traveller history?  Ie. what happens when humans (Vilani) are discovered
around Barnard's Star?  What about when Terrans encounter their first true
alien?  I have a fairly good idea what the official Anglican reaction would
be, and I know how the Baptist church I attended would react, but I'm curious
about you and your church.  Either of these events could make for some
interesting roleplaying with a group secure enough in their beliefs to play
with possibilities.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 23:16:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Mu U-CON game

How about Shadows?

Nice "Man Against Nature" theme, with an archaeological mystery, a tight
deadline enforced by the laws of chemistry, a bit of combat but no moral
dilemmas about killing people (unless you have some animal rights nuts
about).  Plenty of chances for the referee to fudge the rolls to keep
beginners alive, while moving the adventure along.  And best of all, 25mm
plans are already made (plug)!

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:23:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:47:53 -0700
>Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches
>
>One thought on this....  
>
>Cleon had the vargr coreward--who wants to deal with the flakey vargr 
>when you are starting an empire?  That type of contact can ruin a 
>perfectly good empire from the inside out.  
>
>He had the solomani rimward--better wait and deal with them after the 
>empire is firmly established.  We don't want them getting any ideas about 
>"The Rule of Man:  The Sequel". 
>
>To trailing, Cleon faced the k'kree.  This is like the Isralies.  Mess 
>with their territory and they'll just kick your butt--no questions asked.
>
>So what's left?  Spinward.  Spinward seperated into two areas of space by 
>the claw.
>
>Spinward/rimward you've got the the aslan, but spinward/coreward is the 
>unknown.  Zhodani contact was not made until 50.
>
>I submit that Cleon had two primary goals for establishing the 3I.  The 
>primary goal was to re-establish contact with all the worlds of the 
>former Imperium.  Secondly, the Spinward Marches was the 'new world'.  If 
>your going to expand, then this is the place to do it.
>
>Cleon probably wanted to get his hands on it, and then have the option to 
> either sell it (like France did with Louisiana) or develop it (like 
>England did with the New England states).

Kenneth,

I have been keeping up with these posts about the "push to the Marches" by
Cleon, and I think this is the best explanation yet.  This makes very good
sense.  Thanks for a well reasoned post.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 23:19:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Demonology etc.

>Stop and consider how *you* would react if (for example), those clerics
>were invoking Christ and various saints to perform miracles for them.
>And were worshipping Jehovah.

Been there, done that.  Back in high school I played in a D&D game run by an
Anglican priest.  He held our clerics to medieval Christian standards of
morality, or they stopped being granted spells.  COme to that, we got more
experience points for capturing bandits (so they could be hung after a fair
trial) than we did for killing them.  Best D&D game I've ever played in.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:23:10 -0500
Subject: Religion & RPG

Well, at risk of being flamed for a continued slightly off topic discussion,
I have but a few more thoughts to add.

Someone else has touched on this, and I thought I would expand on it a bit.

Folks, I'm afrain that part of the problem is misplaced zeal.  Let me explain...

My wife's grandparents are the pastor and wife of our church.  Grandmother
is a very religously zealous person.  She believes as I mentioned before and
adds the one point that Rich made earlier about the reason Christ came being
to save the world from sin.  (BTW, I agree with this too, Rich :)  Now she
is from an old fundamentalist background, and she also believes that it is
wrong for women to wear pants or slacks.  (Please do not ask, I don't agree
with that belief and I can't explain it! :)  Anyway, her zeal about what she
believes is often misplaced.  If a lady comes to our church to visit wearing
pants, "unsaved" and "bound for Hell"  she would likely tell them something
about the pants.  Now her heart's desire is right, she wants to help this
woman, but her zeal is misplaced.  If she would have concentrated on the
more important part, then the other would have followed (I'm using her
belief structure here, the thought is that God would convict her of pants
once she was "saved").

Now, how does this apply to RPG's?  Well, I think some of the attack on
RPG's and especially the attack on players is simply due to a misplaced
zeal.  The attacker feels that they are doing something that is right, and
therefore attacks the RPG or RPGer, when the issue (according to their own
beliefs) that they should be more concerned with is the person's "eternal
destiny."  Please, no one misinterpret, I'm not trying to preach at anyone,
just trying to explain a possible motivation.

There is even an example of this in the Bible.  Perhaps one of the most
famous New Testament Character's id Paul the Apostle.  He spent years as
Saul of Tarsus persecuting Christians thinking he was doing what God wanted
him to do.  Then one day, God appeared to him in a blinding light while he
was on his way to persecute more Christians.  God basically told him that
what he had thought was God's will was, in fact, not what God wanted at all.
The point of the story is the same whether you believe it to be a true event
or a fable.  Sometimes people get their zeal misplaced.

Now, in an effort, albeit weak, to bring this back to topic, what types of
religons would be common at the onset of the 3I, both within the
Imperium/Federation and without?

PS - anyone wanting to continue the previous discussion with me, feel free
to eMail me and I'd be hapy to discuss.  (I try not to argue though. :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 23:21:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

BTW, the big timeline at the front of the Imperial Encyclopedia
is a wonderfult thing...

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> Cleon had the vargr coreward--who wants to deal with the flakey vargr 
> when you are starting an empire?  That type of contact can ruin a 
> perfectly good empire from the inside out.  

"The Vargr Campaigns: 210-348" It took them a while, but they made it.
:)
The Vargr are so close to Vland that Cleon has to deal with them one
way or another, sooner or later. There are a serious number of worlds
in the Vland sector with Vargr names (a bunch are listed in _Flaming
Eye_).
I think the Vargr are unavoidable, regardless of which way the empire
expands.

> He had the solomani rimward--better wait and deal with them after the 
> empire is firmly established.  We don't want them getting any ideas about 
> "The Rule of Man:  The Sequel". 

Hm. True.

> To trailing, Cleon faced the k'kree.  This is like the Isralies.  Mess 
> with their territory and they'll just kick your butt--no questions asked.

The Imperium may not have got along with the K'kree on a cultural level,
but I don't see how the K'kree could possibly have withstood a serious
Imperial military advance. The raw amount of metal and empty space that
K'kree ships/vehicles have to haul around would make them pretty 
inefficient in combat.

The Vilani have always had a "take no prisoners policy", I doubt they
would
have balked at adopting genocidal tactics when faced with the K'kree
using
them.

Anyways, the K'kree are distinctly unplesant and represent a whole-or-
nothing problem. No doubt Cleon had better things to do than wipe out
a major race.

> So what's left?  Spinward.  Spinward seperated into two areas of space by 
> the claw.
> 
> Spinward/rimward you've got the the aslan, but spinward/coreward is the 
> unknown.  Zhodani contact was not made until 50.
> 
> I submit that Cleon had two primary goals for establishing the 3I.  The 
> primary goal was to re-establish contact with all the worlds of the 
> former Imperium.  Secondly, the Spinward Marches was the 'new world'.  If 
> your going to expand, then this is the place to do it.
> 
> Cleon probably wanted to get his hands on it, and then have the option to 
>  either sell it (like France did with Louisiana) or develop it (like 
> England did with the New England states).

Hm. ~14 sectors, coming back to life for the first time in about
2000 years. Partly settled, partly abandoned, with lots of untouched
planets just waiting for the rediscovery of j-3 or the new discovery 
of j-4. The Vargr starting to rumble coreward. The Aslan still fighting
rim/spinward (though mostly with the Solomani). ALL THIS and he still
has resources to push through Corridor into Deneb and the Marches
(say, when was Deneb settled? Before the Long Night?).

I just have to wonder if there was something more than just virgin 
territory... Oh well, I suppose there's always someone who wants
to shove off to the frontier...

Hey! Wait a minute... what about Meshan, Mendan & Amdukan?? These
aren't Vargr holdings... they're part of the Julian Protectorate
and have _never_ been part of Imperial space... who the hell is 
the Julian Protectorate and why the heck haven't they been assimilated??
Geez, maybe the Marches were Cleon's last hope for new territory...

"We are Cleon of the Imperium and you will buy my Fusion+ reactor!"

Ethan

PS - Less religion, more Traveller! For those of you looking for 
something:

"The Rule of Man was neither a Rule nor a Man. Discuss."

------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:14:19 -0600
Subject: Re: my idea of fun

Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> > Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> >  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
> 
> BTW who are you quoting in your signature? Its not the Fat Controller
> from that Will Self book, is it?
> Of course he's quoting the mighty Mick Jagger in Sympathy for the Devil
(1968).  The greatest rock 'n roll band in the world lives on! 

This has, naturally, nothing to do with Traveller, but I'm in a weird mood.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com



------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 21:30:51 -0600
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> > In Lary Niven's Known Space universe, the General Products hull is a
> > type of "unobtanium". It's an artificially strengthened molecule, just
> > about indestructible, and transparent to visible light in the frequency
> > ranges of the customers. The hulls come in a limited number of sizes
> > and shapes, and you specify any openings in advance.
> 
> Your description falls just a little short. The hull is not truly
> indestructible...in one of Niven's stories, one such hull disintegrates
> upon coming in contact with antimatter (admittedly somewhat rare in
> Core). Also, the hull is/can be made transparent (at time of
> manufacture)
> to non-visible light frequencies and all versions are most definitely
> transparent to gravitons (one crew was crushed to paste when they got a
> little too close to the gravity waves of a neutron star).
> 

I actually just ran my players through an adventure I cooked up which was
heavily based on that Niven story.  It seems a patron was looking for help
locating his father, a prospector, who had misjumped into an empty hex and
discovered a strange rock.

To make a long story short, the patron finds out where his father went and
gets the PCs to jump there.  They find a spherical ball, billiard-ball-smooth
and actually almost landed on it before figuring out it was antimatter.

Only trouble with the session was that one of my players is a Niven fan and
instantly deduced the nature of the ball.  He agreed to play in character
(ie. a doctor who didn't understand anything about antimatter) so as to now
ruin the fun.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 03:07:34 UT
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)

David Smart said:

>Boyd Schneider wrote:
>> 
>> The Phoenix cleverly quipped:
>> 
>> >Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone
>> >could possibly need.  42.
>> 
>> >(sorry, I had a sudden urge to do that.  If anyone hates me now feel
>> >free to say so, but before you get too mad, I can contribute many
>> >things better than this.  Well, at least some people think so...) :-)
>> 
>> Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?
>> 
>> hehehee                         ---Boyd
>
>The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?

Uhh, I don't know...    AAARrrrrrrgggghhhhh-h-h-h!!!!.....

<scene of Boyd plummeting into the chasm...>


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 03:04:35 UT
Subject: RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Joe Walsh said:

I just thought I would add one annotation to what Joe Walsh said:

While I am not a Baptist, in fairness to those who are, Baptist churches are 
autonomous:  what one church may frown on, another church may have a more laid 
back attitude.  (esp. concerning dancing, music, women's clothing, etc.)

				---Boyd

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that to a
> couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you want to speak
> up, now would be a good time :), but my point is simply that by classing

I don't have much to say in this argument, but since Paul wanted a 
character reference:  Paul and I discussed religion on the IRC #traveller 
channel one night (and why aren't you folks on there more often? :), and 
I found him to be on stiff-necked son-of-a-gun.

Just kidding.  Paul and I talked about fundamentalist dogma a bit, and 
he's open-minded.  I was impressed that he researched various religions 
before deciding on the Baptist church.  He told me that he doesn't agree 
with everything they teach (ie, the official Baptist stance on dance is 
that all forms are evil; all rock-and-roll is evil (even Christian 
rock-and-roll); women wearing pants is wrong; etc.). 

Paul has an open mind, and approaches religion intelligently.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 02:41:18 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Rich said:
 (I can't keep saying you get kewler, peepuls will start tu wunder about me)

>Boyd Schneider wrote:
>> I would suggest that the same thing is true with Christians.  Many of us 
have
>> to live not only with living out our lives in the best way possible, but 
also
>> the bad reputation of those who have much zeal with little wisdom. 

You mean like how most NeoPagans have to live with the odium of the bad 
reputation of various darkside "satanic" groups while living their lives in 
the best way possible? :)

I guess, none of my pagan friends ever seem to mention any persecution 
experiences.  Although I have heard about it in a general way -- but the same 
is true for my Jewish and Christian friends.  I guess no matter what people 
say, this country is still pretty tolerant.  How about your own experience?

>Tri-Tac is the company behind "The Morrow Project" -- a GREAT post-
Oh, I had that game (gee I wonder what happened to it?)  never played it but I 
remember how fun it was to take a map of North Texas and mark out the 
locations where the nukes hit and where the bunkers were located...

>holacaust RPG that has a LOT of nasty mutated beasties that would fit into 
>Trav. They're in Michigan, 

Ooh, thanks for the warning, I mean, I wasn't planning to go to Michigan, but 
since there are nasty muties there, I'll be sure to stay away!   :-)>

>and they even have a Web page (check out >www.io.com/sjgames for a big 
>honking list of game company links).

>ASK ME ABOUT MY "WIERD IS WONDERFUL" BUTTON
Okay, say Rich...    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   ?

				---Boyd




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:02:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Coptright . . . or wrong ;)

On 10/07/96 at 12:04 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:

>> Eris
>> 
>> [Homer owns the trademark on my name.  No, I don't mean Homer
>> Simpson!  <g>]

>I thought the Discordians had that one . . . as in "Hail Eris! All Hail
>Discordia!"  <evil, evil grin>

Oh sure, but Homer wrote the stories down (or at least is given credit for
them) so he gets the trademark. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:27:09 -0500
Subject: Re: my idea of fun

On 10/07/96 at 02:05 PM,  Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz> said:

>>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

>BTW who are you quoting in your signature? 

Mick Jagger?  _Sympathy for the Devil_ 

Of course, *he* could have been quoting someone else.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 21:24:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

On 10/07/96 at 11:07 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

> >yet many think the word "fundamentalist" is interchangeable with the
>word Christian.

>Probably because that's how the very vocal fundamentalist Christians use
>it.  

Yes, but so do many Islamic fundamentalists.  Neither Christians nor
Moslems have a corner on fundamentalism. 

I went to a fundamentalist Baptist church for a while (because that's
>where my fiancee went) and they were very agressive in calling everyone
>who went to a different church "non-Christian".  

Yeah, there is that.  <g> There isn't an official Baptist dogma, you know. 
The different Conventions (or individual churchs) vary a good bit on a
number of religious issues.  It is fairly common to believe that *your* way
is the *only* way, and everybody else is in danger of "hell's fire".  To
qualify as "non-Christian" you'd have to be *really* non-Christian...or
Roman Catholic. <g>

>Oh, and for the record, I'm no longer attending the Baptist church.  I'm
>now Warden at an Anglican church with a priest who has incorporated
>elements of traditional Chinese beliefs into his orthodox Anglicanism.  A
>bit odd, but definately an accepting place.

Cool!  I gues this isn't the place to talk about this stuff.  <g> I just
wanted you to be aware that not every Christian that belongs to the Baptist
demonination is as stiff-necked as the ones you've met.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #509
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 510

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: social-acceptance
         2. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism
         3. Re: My hobbies...
         4. Playing to win. Learning to lose.
         5. Re: Unexplored worlds in Year 0.
         6. Adventure Outlines vs Choreographed Adventures
         7. Re: World Generation
         8. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
         9. none...
        10. Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        11. Re: World Generation
        12. Social acceptance, fundamentalism and the rest...
        13. RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
        14. Re: Starship junkyards (digest #452,1996)
        15. Jokes
        16. Re: RPG & Religion
        17. Re: Help with the animals!
        18. Re: Re: Playing to win
        19. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism
        20. Re: RPG chicks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:12:31 -0500
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

On 10/07/96 at 12:27 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:

>...is as intolerant as the most red-necked regions of the storied 
>American South, and it is getting worse. Relocation IS in my future . . .

Most of the stories about the south are just that...stories!  We
southerners start most of them, and enjoy cultivating our reputation with
outsiders.  It's our perverse sense of humor...we fousted Jeff Foxworthy on
ya'll after all.  <g>

If you want to relocate, come on down.  After you've been here 30 or 40
years you might be allowed to be a Southerner too.  <g>

Eris,
 American by birth
 Southern by the grace of God
 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 20:54:27 -0500
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism

On 10/07/96 at 10:28 AM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>To start, let me pull out my label and wear it proudly.  I am a
>Fundamental Baptist.  I believe God exists, I believe that he created the
>world in 6 days, including man, I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and I
>believe that Jesus became a man, lived, died, rose from the grave, and
>will one day return.  I say all of that to somewhat define the label I
>wear.  This mailing list is not the place to debate the ideas above, I
>only bring them up to define my background and frame of reference.

Paul, I think you'll find that there are quite a few of us out here on the
list.  I am a born again Christian and a member of a Baptist church.  I
don't disagree with anything you said in the above paragraph, however I
don't hold God to a 6 day limit on universe creation.  <g> 

About Fundamentalism...

There are people in most societies that are quite willing to ban books,
that consider GI-Joe and Barbie to be tools of 'Satan', that pile toys,
books and records in giant piles and set them afire.  I know! There's a
church full of them about 2 miles from my home.

I've always thought that these folks are afraid of ideas.  They need so
much structure in their lives that they can't allow for the existence of
alternatives.  Anyone that challenges their world-view is a threat, and not
just to them, but to *everyone* around them. That's why they can't just
leave *you* be, you're difference is a corrupting influence and as such is
dangerous.


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 21:39:51 -0500
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

On 10/07/96 at 11:17 AM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:

>> Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" respons
>> (and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
>> more respect...

>Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . . and
>you can't  believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell people
>about the Society for  Creative Anachronism. They think the initials stand
>for "Satan's Church in America."

Geeze Louise, Rich!  

I live in the "armpit of the American South", the "heart of the Bible
belt", and we aren't that bad!  <g> There's an SCA chapter/fiefdom in
Pensacola, several comics and game stores, roleplaying is spotty, but all
over the place, and we co-exist with the book/barbie/beatles burning
Churches pretty well.

We do have our problems, though.  There is the continuing problem of
ritualistic cat killings, for instance, Satanic Rituals are hinted at..the
pentagons on the walls of buildings don't help either. There haven't been
any church burnings lately, and the local statues of ML King and RE Lee
have been unmolested for several months now. The arson, explosions, and
murders at the abortion clinics seem to have died down, but that seems to
be seasonal..spring madness.


Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 21:52:58 -0500
Subject: Playing to win. Learning to lose.

On 10/07/96 at 11:32 AM,  "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
said:

>> >Although, the author gave an anecdote from Gen-Con of a"twelve-year-old 
>> >on a crying jag because someone twice his age felt the need to utterly 
>> >crush him during a Magic tournament."  

I don't play MTG, for a number of reasons, but I thought part of the game
was that you lose your cards when you lose..like shooting marbles.  The
decks being as hard to create and as expensive as they are, *I'd* probably
ball my eyes out if I got beat too.  Or do I have it wrong?  <G>

>if I'm playing with my 13 year old nephew...I'm going to be lax
>about letting him "take back" a play.  We are there to enjoy ourselves,
>which isn't to say that I won't hesitate to build "good loser" and "good
>winer" skills.

That's probably the best way to teach someone to play games.  It's
important to learn to be a good loser and a good winner both.  OTOH, it's
important to learn that RPG's don't work exactly like most games.  

Through cooperation we *all* win. <g>

Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:24:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Unexplored worlds in Year 0.

On 10/07/96 at 01:57 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:

>The problem with the unexplored worlds that close to Sylea is not the size
>of the Imperium in Year 0, but that the Sylean Federation is 650 years old
>(propably Sylea never did loose jump capacity at all; anyway, they've had
>jump ships for 650 years at least). The notion that at least the physical
>characteristics of worlds that close to Sylea would be unknown, simply
>trips  my "suspension-of-disbelief" curcuit breakers. Its quite possible
>that some of them would not have been visited in a while, but being
>completely unknown?  No way!

Hans, I don't have a problem with the un-labeled worlds in Core Subsector. 
Notice I didn't say unexplored. <g>

My take on it is that Marc and the boys wanted to leave a number of worlds
open for individual GM's to detail.  I'd say those systems *have* been
explored and may (or may not) be part of the Federation. They've just been
set aside for us to customize.  That's my take on it anyway.


Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:38:28 -0500
Subject: Adventure Outlines vs Choreographed Adventures

On 10/05/96 at 03:14 PM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>> This choreographed approach bugs me.  While I'm not one for using
>> pre-packaged adventures much, I'm more likely to use one that is crafted
>> along the lines of the old, CT-era adventures than those that are
>> currently produced.  I hope IG and the licensees will be using the
>> correct approach for the adventures they produce.

>I disagree whole heartedly, Joe.  I own a business, and most of my 
>players are professionals.  We have careers and families to attend to.  
>This is not like it was in High School when I could spend a week working 
>on the adventure before my gaming group meets.  

>I LIKE adventures that do as much work for the GM as possible.  I like to 
>see pre-generated NPC's.  I want to see all the equipment detailed.  I 
>want maps, diagrams, and deck plans.  Heck, I want the whole system 
>detailed in case the adventure takes a spur to one of the outer planets.

I agree with BOTH of you! <g>

I want the maps, deckplans, equipment, NPC's and an entire plot laid out. 
I also want lots of plot hooks so the players and I can detour from the
established plot.  Even leave the established plot completely.  

What I don't like is an Adventure so tightly laid out that you have to
follow the plot sequence step by step.

>If I don't like what is printed, I change it.  It is as simple as that.  
>The difference is that I can choose how much work needs to be done before 
>the session.

That goes without saying.  <g> I just want the Adventure laid out so it is
*easy* to change, and has lots of alternatives ready to plug in.

Guess what?  I think that's what BOTH of you really want.  <g>


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:40:45 -0700
Subject: Re: World Generation

Hello all,

Warning: Lurker Decloaking off starboard-bow, waving universal signal of
distress!

Someone a few digests back mentioned an alternate UWP generation
sequence, but I lost the reference. Could someone please send me the URL
of the web-page that this alternative-rule is located?

Thank you.

Brian A. Howard
Lurker (re-cloaking)

------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 23:54:34 -0400
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Suzette Dollar wrote:
> 
> Paul Walker wrote:
> > SNIP
> 
> > Now, after having said what I said above, some of you, no doubt, have
> > labeled me as a person who does not think for himself, and takes what he is
> > told as truth.  I am not that type of person, and I have proven that to a
> > couple of you through discussions we have had(Ahem, any of you want to speak
> > up, now would be a good time :),
> 
> (Paul, from the sound of things you don't need my moral support but since you
> hinted so loudly...)
> 
> First off, I do not share Paul's beliefs.  I was raised in the Jewish faith, but
> do not practice any form of organized religion.  I believe in evolution, not
> creationism, and, while I do believe that there is something out there be it
> fate, kizmet, God, destiny, a higher power of whatever sort, that higher power
> and I are going to have to work things out between ourselves without any
> rituals, prayers, etc.  I am what I am and I try to be a good person and
> he/she/it will just have to judge me by that.
> 
> That said, I am also pretty leary of anyone who is very religious.  Much of my
> experience with strongly religious people has been that they tend to spout what
> they hear from ministers, etc. as gospel without any thought of their own.  Paul
> has proven to give the Bible thought and is willing to and has given
> interpretations of his own.  Paul has my respect for that, and is one of very
> few I'd be willing to have a second discussion about religion with.  (I'll have
> a first discussion about *anything* with anyone, but....).
> 
> (Ok, Paul, was that what you wanted?  <g>)
> 
> Suz

Hi there people,

Although I agree with Suz and disagree with Paul (I am an atheist, have
been for a long time).  (I must say that you are a lot more patient than
me Suz since I would not even start a conversation about religion and
usually slam the door :-#)).  However, I think we should think about
moving on to another subject (See I just ignored my rule and commented -
I guess I couldn't resist).

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.geis.com
Date: Tue,  8 Oct 96 03:31:00 GMT 
Subject: none...

Allen:

> I don't know about you guys (and women, for those that are out
> there), but I really enjoy having Loren on this list. Because he
> was there when a lot of Traveller was formed, he's got some insights
> that make for informative and entertaining reading.
> But he always leaves me thinking that there's so much more he'd LIKE
> to say...

Discretion is my middle name -- or is it fading memory?


> Thanks, Loren.

Da nada.

<I forget who asked:>

> Hmmm...is there a .GIF of that somewhere, Loren?? ;)

'Fraid not. Three. maybe four photocopies...tops.


>> Rich Ostorero said:
>>
>> > Lodi, California. Home of Tokaj Esperance grapes (Fans of _AHL_
>> > may remember this . . .)
>>
>> For GDW's 20th Anniversary, in 1993, I tapped a bottle of Tokaj Aszu
>> 5 puttunos (from Hungary, not Lodi)...not quite essenzia, but close.
>
>I thought you might have had something like that for the 20th.

Also had a _really_ good '76 Trochenbeerenauslese and some first
class barbecue. Good food, and close friends. It don't get any
better...

Glenn Grant

> but an *actual* case of a kid going psychotic and trying to chop
> up his mother with a broadsword? No, I've never come across such
> a story in any media I would consider even half-way trustworthy.

Mike Stackpole, Myself, and the other members of the GAMA Media Watch
COmmittee were engaged in looking for such a case for years. We never
found one. We found lotsa newspaper clippings, and one guy who
mistook a _novel_ for a serious case study...

<material deleted, including a discussion of the college student in
Michigan>

Dallas Egbert was the student's name. It was the first major "RPGs are
dangerous" story to hit the media.

> Then, weeks later, the guy's body is found, hundreds of miles from
> the  school.

Partly true. Egbert turned up in Louisiana, very much alive, (albeit
under mysterious circumstances...seems he called one of the detectives
who was searching for him, and turned himself in). Several months later,
Egbert killed himself. Tragic, but totally unrelated to gaming.


Harold:

> So who ended up with GDW's library of Traveller reference copies?

I kept my Traveller reference material. Frank kept his...etc. The
company library was divided up my mutual assent ("You want this?" "No
thanks, got two already." "I'll take it." etc.).

Kenneth Bearden

> I also believe, that if Traveller is going to survive, IG needs to
> hit the market hard with published adventures.  GDW's problem was
> that it was supplement heavy--not enough adventures.

Supplements sold many times more units than adventures. Rules books
like Mercenary sold even better. Adventures are necessary for the long
term survival of the game, but money is necessary for the short term
survival of the company. I spend three weeks writing an adventure, it
sells 5000 copies. I spend the same amount of time doing a supplement,
it sells 15000. (Actually, it was more like: "Loren spends a month
designing a product versus Loren spends a month developing two
products).


 None of this is meant to be interpreted as saying adventures are not
very important to a game.

     Loren "Discretion" Wiseman
         GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:59:37 -0500
Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

On 10/05/96 at 10:12 PM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>C'mon, guys, you've got to be kidding.  Yes, the character had a great
>skill, but level 4 is not that unheard of.  A 9 Edu is even more common.
> I agree, the character was above average with his stats, BUT TO HAVE A
>44% CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW JUST DOES NOT SEEM RIGHT.

>To me, the high chance of success seems impossible.

Ken, you bring up an interesting point.  

I've often wondered just what *we* think is impossible.  <g> I've listed
the 5 task levels and 5 skill levels below.  Let's do a little survey...

What percentage chance of success to you think each skill level should have
for each task level?

- -- 
                                       Highly
            Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert
             (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)
- -----------+-------------------------------------------
Easy       |
Average    |
Difficult  |
Formidable |
Staggering |
Impossible |

I'll hold off with my opinion until after others have had a chance
to respond. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:12:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: World Generation

Brian A. Howard said:
> Someone a few digests back mentioned an alternate UWP generation
> sequence, but I lost the reference. Could someone please send me the URL
> of the web-page that this alternative-rule is located?

It's probably elsewhere as well, but there's on at:
   http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/altWorldGeneration.html

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 08 Oct 96 14:17:15 +1000
Subject: Social acceptance, fundamentalism and the rest...

     Guys
     
     Although you seem to have a hot discussion going here, I'd like to see 
     it moved off this mailing list please. 
     
     A good rule of thumb: the acceptable length of your post is inversely 
     proportional to the direct relevance of the topic. I'm happy with 
     off-topic discussion if it runs to 5-10 lines, but 50-100 line rants 
     are a bit rich. And *please* don't quote great slabs of previous 
     messages! 
     
     Let's leave the 30+ line band for those that want to post scenarios, 
     ship designs, amber zones and background essays! 
     
     Michael

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:18:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Joe Walsh said:
> 
> I just thought I would add one annotation to what Joe Walsh said:
> 
> While I am not a Baptist, in fairness to those who are, Baptist churches are 
> autonomous:  what one church may frown on, another church may have a more laid 
> back attitude.  (esp. concerning dancing, music, women's clothing, etc.)


Sheesh.  Well, I'm not an expert on the Baptist faith...I'm sorry for the 
mistake.  I was just going by what Paul told me, and I was taking it out 
of context and of course stating it in terms of how I understood what he 
said (which may not be necessarily what he meant).


- -Joe (Shuttin' up about religion on here from now on)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Kestner <pjwk@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:29:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship junkyards (digest #452,1996)

<sniped discription of a auto junk lot...>
<
>>  I wonder if there is something like this in the Traveller 
>Universe where ship owners could go to buy used upgrades for their ship 
>at discount prices? >>
>
>Possibly, but there are differences between cars and starships:
>
>- - ships last *much* longer (10x)
>- - there are fewer ships
>- - ships are *much* more expensive
>
>There will be market for second-hand starship bits, but I don't think 
>you'll see many 'starship graveyards'.
>

  Also, as the hull metals have their own value,  even the stripped
frames and hull plates would be recycled by someone.
  So, don't think of the situation as a car junkyard.   More along
the lines of the merchant marine,  where even old worn out stripped
hulls bring a decient scrap metal price.   If the owners have the
time and finacial ability, (pay towing, old taxes, outstanding
docking fees, back wages, etc.),  that hunk of metal is turned
into cash and razor blades.
  There are places where hulls are stored rather than scraped,
such as navy DEPOT's and some asteroids civilizations.   For
the most part they are about as rare as the Psionics Institute.
Except that they do not hide,  heck, the commercial ones even
advertize.
....
Paul Kestner  a.k.a.  pjwk@erols.com
parting remark: "The Devil hides in the details."
....


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 23:21:12 -0500
Subject: Jokes

On 10/07/96 at 05:25 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:

>Like the joke in the movie Rob Roy: "Why do Luthrens never (make love)
>standing up? They  think that doing that leads to _dancing_.

Good one! <g>

Ok, why must you always take *2* Baptists fishing with you?  If you only
take one he'll drink all your beer. <Ta Dump>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:31:50 -0500
Subject: Re: RPG & Religion

Well, thanks for the glowing reviews Joe and Suz, I really wasn't reaching
out for what you said, I just wanted someone to say, "Yeah, he's an OK guy
sometimes."  Anyway, thanks for the kind words.

Oh yeah, BTW, the checks are in the mail. :)  Just kidding.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 23:37:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with the animals!

>Right now I'm considering something like 5 for generally peaceful 
>animals, 7 for moderately aggressive animals and 9 for dangerous 
>predators with a +/-1 adjustment depending on the individual beast.  
>Nonetheless I'd still like to know the official rule :-)

Sounds good.  This is how I will work it:

Herbivore: 5-
Scavenger: 7-
Omnivore: 7-
Carnivore: 9-

The mods on weaponry (eg. Claws+1) affect this number.  Thus, a killer
(carnivore) with claws+1 would have a target number of 10-.  

I will also list this number on the animal encounter table (to save the
effort of remembering it) along with the damage and stuff.  But then, when
I'm running a game I never want to consult multiple tables, so I frequently
copy out data to have it right in front of me.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 23:43:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Playing to win

>I find that half the fun of games is the interaction of the Players.

For a role-playing game, this is the entirity of the fun (for me).  But for a
game like chess, I expect the other person to be trying to win.  If they are
just sliding the pieces around laughing at the way I'm trying to win, well,
they are really laughing at me, and I'll find someone else to play with.

I used to fence with a guy who didn't like keeping track of the score.  Drove
me crazy, because there are certain positional tactics which only make sense
at certain scores.  Also, he would do crazy things because "the score didn't
matter".

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 23:37:42 -0500
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism

On 10/07/96 at 06:21 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>He told me that he doesn't agree with everything they teach (ie,
>the official Baptist stance on dance is that all forms are evil; all
>rock-and-roll is evil (even Christian rock-and-roll); women wearing
>pants is wrong; etc.).

Keep in mind that this varies from church to church.  Dancing is iffy, but
most music (including RnR) is OK, and women it's when the women DON'T wear
pants that you have a problem.  <g> 

Also keep in mind that just because *somebody* claims something is dogma
doesn't mean individual Baptists have to agree or obey.  We dance, listen
to rock, play pool, wear pants (might have a problem if the men were
wearing skirts though <g>, etc.  We just don't recognize each other when we
do it. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 17:31:14 +1300
Subject: Re: RPG chicks

> 
>         I think it's more a matter of the social group you play with than
> NZ gamers as a whole; the games I've played in the past have usually
> included at least one female (who wasn't an SO, BTW), and the current
> campaigns I play in are about 1/3rd female. Interestingly, my wife ran an
> all-female campaign in intermediate school, and was introduced to gaming
> by her father (!)
> 
> - --
> Idiot/Savant                    idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
> Betray your friends; Crush your enemies;
> Control the world; Drink some coffee
> 

I like the sound of that, Idiot/Savant. Thanks for the response. It 
would seem then that my fellow players and I are either social retards 
or perhaps a bit rough ;-)

Victoria University of Wellington, eh? I can understand you not using 
your real name. Victoria has a notoriously insecure email server.



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #510
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 511

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: a royal flush?..is that good?
         2. Re: Playing to win
         3. Re: A sudden urge
         4. Alternate technologies and plot devices
         5. Re: Coptright . . . or wrong ;)
         6. Re: My hobbies...
         7. Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         8. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply
         9. Re: It seems impossible...
        10. Re: Cleon & The marches
        11. An offer too good to refuse
        12. Traveller News Service
        13. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        14. Re: RPGs and Fundimentalism
        15. Re: It seems impossible...
        16. Re: none...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 17:48:01 +1300
Subject: Re: a royal flush?..is that good?

> 
> > Niko, I have run games in the past that involved gambling of different
> > kinds but have always felt that a skill in Gambling was a little
> > anomalous since gambling was supposed to be about luck.
> 
> Obviously, you *haven't* done much gambling. Craps and roulette are
> about luck. Cards games are about skill. And a lot of forms of gambling
> will pay off if you know how to best place your bets and when not to bet.
> 

> - --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>


Thats true Fred. Gambling of that sort (roulette etc) was illegal in New 
Zealand up until a couple of years ago. There are currently only two 
major casinos in New Zealand, and neither are close to my home town. I 
have never been much into card gambling but I had always thought that 
the skill in those games was in bluffing and in knowing where the cards 
were. I really have to accept your advice in this regard.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 96 00:00:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Playing to win

On 10/07/96 at 06:26 PM,  Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net> said:

>I find that half the fun of games is the interaction of the Players. I
>find that those Folks who want a tuff well fought game are prime Targets
>for the old mind fu**. They play to win and I play them for yucks. Sure I
>lose but it sure is fun. This is not a plan that works all the time for
>all games or all players just an alternitive to winning.

You've noticed that too?  <g> 

Winning is a personal thing.  I've been up against people I *know* I can't
beat, but I can still *win*..if I redefine winning.  <g> Sometimes winning
is just giving your opponent hell, and surviving to do it another day.

I used to play tennis a lot, wasn't good but I played for fun. Sometimes,
I'd run into *intense* players that were seriously good and played
SERIOUSLY.  I enjoyed playing them even though I almost never
won..officially.  See, I didn't play *right*..I played them like Bobby
Riggs.  <g> I'd laugh and talk, kill the momentum on their shots, dink,
lob, and cut my shots.  I varied speeds when I shouldn't to disrupt there
rythem.  I'd go to the net and dink a return rather than smash one.  I
*always* made them run..to strain for shots.  Everything I returned was
soft and usually with either top or bottom spin.  I made them expend as
much energy as possible. I also mixed in actually fairly good serves,
volleys and returns once in a while..when I could...those they could kill,
but because they never expected them, they were usually off-balance and
often missed them.  <g> They always won the first few games, but they got
more and more frustrated because of the way I was playing them, and if I
could get them mad enough they'd start making unforced errors and
completely blow up.  Occasionally, I'd win a match from the SOB's, usually
I still lost.  Either way, *I* had a good workout and a lot of fun.  <g> I
can't recall even one of these guys wanting to play me a second match.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:09:14 PST
Subject: Re: A sudden urge

In mail you write:

> The Phoenix cleverly quipped:
>
>>Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone 
>>could possibly need.  42.
>
>>(sorry, I had a sudden urge to do that.  If anyone hates me now feel 
>>free to say so, but before you get too mad, I can contribute many 
>>things better than this.  Well, at least some people think so...) :-)
>
> Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?

WHAT IS SIX MULTIPLIED BY NINE

*Everybody* knows that!

ps. it actually works in base 13
pps. Douglas Adams wasn't aware of that
ppps. And he's been asked "Did you know..." enough times that you
      imperil your life by asking.
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 08 Oct 96 15:48:13 +1000
Subject: Alternate technologies and plot devices

     I have been trying to think of 'alternative' technologies and how they 
     might fit into the Traveller Imperium. 
     
     __________________________
     The Third Imperium is likely to meet a number of races that have used 
     different means of manipulating the environment. Sophonts have used 
     mechanical, biological, electromagnetic or even psionic methods to 
     promote the basic needs shared by most living beings: water, food, 
     procreation, security, shelter, living space and knowledge. 
     
     Races may also achieve a high level of technology in some fields, 
     while for various reasons falling behind in certain key areas. As an 
     example, the (now extinct) minor race of Sabmiqys/Antares was known to 
     have achieved TL17 in most technologies but because of social and 
     psychological factors never appear to have developed jump drive or 
     even space flight. 
     
     The Solomani found it most efficient to seed many worlds within their 
     sphere with genetically engineered (human and other) organisms. This 
     impetus, combined with the advantage that the human organism is 100% 
     compatible with the Terran biosphere, gave genetic and medical 
     sciences on Terra a substantial head start over less fortunate races, 
     such as the Vilani. 
     
     Some 'minor races', for example the Vegans, achieved non-jump 
     starflight using technologies that the Third Imperium would consider 
     'dead end', such as starsails, interstellar ramscoops, generation 
     ships, extended cold sleep, robotic probes or a combination of 
     techniques. Some races that have not discovered gravitic techniques 
     have compensated by achieving mastery over electromagnetic forces.  
     
     The Zhodani are rumoured to have a superiority in psionic devices, 
     psychology, neurology and the social sciences, largely because of 
     their intense interest in psionic phenomena and the existence of 
     psionic tools to experiment in these fields. 
     
     Other rumours abound, such as those of races using advanced biological 
     technologies to achieve spaceflight, or even altering their basic 
     nature through a combination of cybernetic and biogenetic 
     enhancements. 
     __________________________
     *Does anybody have more examples, ideas, discussion on this topic? 
     How might these technologies function, what other examples are present 
     from the <shudder> canon, and how far can we go without dealing damage 
     to the 'fabric' of the Traveller universe?* 
     

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:50:20 PST
Subject: Re: Coptright . . . or wrong ;)

In mail you write:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Eris
>> 
>> [Homer owns the trademark on my name.  No, I don't mean Homer
>> Simpson!  <g>]
>
> I thought the Discordians had that one . . . as in "Hail Eris! All Hail 
> Discordia!" 
> <evil, evil grin>

I bet he's got a *lovely* golden apple for you. The one inscribe "for
the fairest". :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:32:33 PST
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

In mail you write:

> Andy Lilly wrote:
>> 
>> >Rich Ostorero said:
>> >>> So I stick to talking about my
>> >>> other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
>> >>> always better :-)
>> 
>> Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" response
>> (and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
>> more respect...
>
> Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . .
> and you can't believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell
> people about the Society for Creative Anachronism. They think the
> initials stand for "Satan's Church in America."

Not to mention the folks who don't know the difference between
"Anachronism" and "Anarchism". One thing that helped here was having a
few cops and a couple of Sheriff's deputies in the local branch. It
meant that at least the law enforcement types knew better, or if they
didn't, somebody above them would clue them in. Given that one of the
Sherriff's deputies was in a position where pissing him off could make
your life miserable (some sort of paperwork thing :-) they tended to
give folks he said were ok the benifit of the doubt.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:40:21 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

In mail you write:

> Rob Prior said:
>>>yet many think the word "fundamentalist" is interchangeable with the word
>>>Christian.
>>
>>Probably because that's how the very vocal fundamentalist Christians use 
> it. 
>
> Interesting, almost all the Christians I know, myself included, balk at the 
> label.  IMO, it represents an attitude wherein the letter of the law, so to 
> speak, is emphasized over the spirit -- to the detriment of people.

Y'know, I recall a group like that mentioned in the Bible. Remember the
Pharisees? I was taught that they were *very* guilty of the sin of
pride (among other things), and that their very attitude was a sin.

Somehow, this fits far too many "fundamentalists" all too well.

Note that Islamic fundamentalists are no better. At least the Jewish
equivalent doesn't try to impose their point of view, they just look
down on the rest of the world.

Which neans that you can always use the dodge Star Trek and many SF
writers have used. Have the characters run afoul of "Fundamentalist
XXXs". 

If you want something resembling a current religion, I daresay that the
Church of Bob folks would find it *funny* to have their religion used
that way. Or use something like the Church of Elvis.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:04:02 PST
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

In mail you write:

> I guess I, as well, am guilty of generalizing based on labels. In my
> experience (which is by no means, of course, exhaustive),
> "fundamentalists" always meant those Christians who, while being true
> believers, add a lot of extra rules, like "playing cards is evil," "movies 
> are
> evil," etc. Please forgive me for incorrectly labeling you that way.

There are good technical reasons for claiming that any Church that has
a doctrine inconsistent with the statement of faith embodied in the
Nicean Creed (aka Apostle's Creed) is actually *not* a Christian
church. Something I've been mean-spirited enough to use on folks in
online arguments a time or two. 

Having extras is ok. But denying anything in it gets you onto shaky
ground pretty fast.

But when you get right down to it, the anti-gaming attitudes and
everything else run into one major flaw. Sure, their church may say
that members may not do these things. But when they start saying that
non-members can't, they are on much shakier ground.

I could give a long argument, but it'd all be based on one thing:
Where there is no temptation, there cannot be virtue. It takes no
effort to refrain from sin if you are protected from knowing about it.
And thus, you cannot claim to have been virtous, you merely went with
the flow. So by supressing this in non-members, they are denying their
members the opportunity to be virtuous!

The real reason for this is that too many churches are organizations,
and usually *hierarcial* ones at that. As such, they have a need to
expand. It's not enough to maintain the faith, and be an example, they
*must* get more people following their rules (the heck with whether
they *believe* them, just so they follow the rules). 

As soon as they start *telling* you what the doctrines mean rather than
helping you figure it out on your own, they've crossed the line. They
no longer are interested in helping people to find God, they are trying
to recruit members.

Reminds me of another thing I was taught about sin. If you decide to
not commit a sin because you will be (or might be) punished, rather
than because it is *wrong*, then you aren't making a moral choice.
You're making an *expedient* one. And thus you are a sinner anyway. It
may be a lesser sin, but it's still a sin. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 03:57:29 -0700
Subject: Re: It seems impossible...

Joe Walsh wrote (in response to what I said):

I said:
> > The character's target number was 13--ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW!
> > There
> > is a 44% chance that 13 or less will be thrown on 4 dice.
> >
> > C'mon, guys, you've got to be kidding.  Yes, the character had a 
> > great
> > skill, but level 4 is not that unheard of.  A 9 Edu is even more 
> > common.
> > I agree, the character was above average with his stats, BUT TO HAVE 
> > A
> > 44% CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW JUST DOES NOT SEEM 
> > RIGHT.



And, Joe Walsh responded: 
> Yup.  If it's Impossible, it really should be Impossible.  Or, if we're
> granting that it is an RPG, and the needs of an exciting story call for
> charcters to be able to do seven impossible things before
> breakfast...okay, we find a better chance than 0% for the worst case
> scenario task roll.  Maybe 10%?  20%?
> 
> The problem is that D6 bell curve that neither you nor I care to get rid
> of in our Traveller games.  When IG decided to adjust the # of dice
> thrown (rather than the target number) in response to the difficulty of the
> task to be achieved, they set themselves on a path toward a system that
> has no extremely difficult tasks - for those who are highly skilled with
> moderate characteristics, or moderately skilled with high characteristics.
> 
> They could have solved this (to a degree) by requiring the use of 1/2
> characteristic+skill to determine the target number, as some TMLers have
> said they will do (though you may want to adjust the # of dice as well,
> in that case).
> 
> Me?  I'm just going to use it as-is.  In their specialties, characters
> are going to do great.  Outside of those specialties, they'll still have
> a chance...but not a great one (unless they have an awesome characteristic,
> and are performing a task related to that characteristic).  I like this
> heroic style of role-playing.

Joe, 

I can see your point to a degree.  I can see a character being Mr. Bad 
Dude in his specialty.  The problem is the attribute based task system.

On the surface, I like the simple task system IG has come up with.  It 
makes sense, and it is easy to do a quick addition to find a task number. 
 Both the character's ability and skill influence the character's 
success.

The problem that I am having is that a character with a high, or even 
semi-high, characteristic is good at a lot of things--not just his 
specialty.

Let's take a PC with a Dex of 10.  If he has ANY of the following skills 
at level 1 or greater, he has an 11 target number--which is pretty easy 
to obtain even on an impossible throw (which averages 14):  

Battle Dress, Bow Combat, Brawling, Craftsman, Dance, Environmental 
Combat, Equestrian, Fencing, Forgery, Grav Craft, Ground Craft, Heavy 
Weapons, Helicopter, Intruison, Jet Plane, Long Blade, Melee Combat, 
Music, Pilot, Pistol, Prop Plane, Rifle, Ship's Boat, Short Blade, 
Shotgun, Stealth, Submachinegun, Throwing, Vac Suit, or Water Craft.

So, you're telling me that just because a character is dextrous, he can 
be equally skilled in such diverse skills as shooting a gun, picking a 
lock, piloting a ship, sneaking around undetected, and throwing a 
grenade?

Does anybody else have a problem with this?

I agree that Dex should have a bering on these activities.  But, it 
should not skew succeess that much.  If a character with a 10 Dex (God 
forbid if he has a 12 or 14) has any of the above mentioned skills, he's 
got somewhere around a 35-40% chance of success on an IMPOSSIBLE throw!

It seems to me that MT had a better task system (although I think that it 
can be improved upon).  At least it was based on the skill.  The 
attribute only contributed 0-3 points to the throw.

   
Actually, Joe, the bell curve didn't work too bad in that system.  Let's 
look at:

The same character with Dex 10 and Pistol-1 fires his gun at a target.  
This gave a +3 to the MT task roll.

For a simple task at firing the pistol, the character would succeed 97% 
of the time (because snake eyes always fails).

A routine task?  92% success rate.

A difficult task?  42% success rate.

A formidable task?  A 3% success rate, because boxcars always hit.

An impossible task?  A 3% sucess rate, because 12 always hit.

Here, the bell curve is working for us--giving a high chance of success 
at the simple and routine levels, a moderate chance of success at the 
difficult level, and a very slim chance of success at the formidable and 
impossible level.

The thing I like about it is that the character's high Dex certainly has 
an impact on his chance of success, but there is still a wide difference 
in the character's level one skills and his level four skills.

In the T4 system, the character with the high Dex is exceptional at 
everything he does using Dex as a base.

Even the 8 or better CT system with all of it's DMs is better than this 
one.  Again, I say, what was IG thinking?

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 04:08:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

Paul Walker wrote:

> Kenneth,
> 
> I have been keeping up with these posts about the "push to the Marches" by
> Cleon, and I think this is the best explanation yet.  This makes very good
> sense.  Thanks for a well reasoned post.

Ethan dogged me and Paul likes what I had to say (thanks for the support, 
Paul!).

It's one strike and one ball, but the diverse opinions is one of the 
reasons the I REALLY LOVE THIS GAME!

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 08 Oct 96 18:21:40 +1000
Subject: An offer too good to refuse

     Like Paul, I hereby offer my proofreading services to Imperium Games; 
     I am happy to check chapters of revised editions of MMT or future 
     sourcebooks. In return for the 'sneak preview', I will swear an oath, 
     in whatever bodily fluid IG might prefer, that I will not divulge any 
     of the contents or related discussions. 
     
     I have spent some time as a magazine editor and I have the pedantic 
     nature required for an Assistant Proofreading Gnome (APG). 
     
     IG, contact me with your yea or nay: 
     MB

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 08 Oct 96 18:22:04 +1000
Subject: Traveller News Service

     I'd like to see some news items on the Imperium Games TNS Web page! If 
     IG don't have the time, I'm sure some of us on this list would be 
     happy to draft up a few 'messages' (me! me! me!). Safety guidelines 
     might be: 
     
     1. no messages that make big changes to the Milieu Zero setting (ie 
     leave big changes to the IG staff! so no Ancient megaweapon buried 
     under the Grand Palace that allows a group of PCs to become 
     Emperors/Empresses!)
     2. TNS items should be consistent with the limitations of the 
     background, such as date and technological level. Announcements of 
     refinements to meson communicator technology, consistent with TL12, 
     are probably OK; while development of Jump-6 drive or disintegrator 
     technology are not. 
     3. Imperium Games has full control over which draft news items 
     actually make it onto the TNS, and will be open to comments on 
     consistency, factual errors and so forth. 
     
     This might make an interesting 'link' for elements of your campaign to 
     the official 'canon', but must be consistent with the facts that a 
     journalist might know. For example, if your players have broken into a 
     secure, top-secret weapons research facility at the University of 
     Sylea, the TNS message might read: 
     ______________________________________________________________________
     0010-0001 Sylea/Core/Core
     Unidentified terrorists attacked University of Sylea yesterday, 
     stealing an undisclosed quantity of research materials. There were no 
     fatalities, thanks to the quick actions of Imperial troops guarding 
     the area. 
     ______________________________________________________________________
     *This sort of message doesn't 'break' the background, but raises some 
     nice questions for other campaigners: eg why the hell are there 
     Imperial troops at the University, and what would a group of 
     terrorists be after? Are they terrorists at all, or is something else 
     going on? Were there *really* no fatalities, or is there an Imperial 
     coverup? 
     TNS messages should be the *beginning* of an adventure for other 
     gamers and not a *fait accompli* that cuts off all potential game 
     threads! *
     
     Comments? A light toasting over open flames? 
     MB

------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 01:20:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Thus Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com> did speak:

> Hey! Wait a minute... what about Meshan, Mendan & Amdukan?? These
> aren't Vargr holdings... they're part of the Julian Protectorate
> and have _never_ been part of Imperial space... who the hell is 
> the Julian Protectorate and why the heck haven't they been assimilated??
> Geez, maybe the Marches were Cleon's last hope for new territory...

A large part of these sectors were within the borders of the First 
Imperium, and were extensively settled by Vargr during the Long Night. 
The Third Imperium did try to assimilate them - from 89-175 they 
tried diplomatic/economic persuasion, but the region resisted.  When 
military means were tried, the various associations in the region 
joined together into the Julian Protectorate and beat off the 
Imperium (Julian War, 175-191). [source: Vilani&Vargr, DGP]


- --
Edward Swatschek -- edjs@mindlink.net -- ConQuest96 Registrar
   -*-*-
General Inquiries:   Micheal  (604) 266-4964   md@mindlink.net
GMs/Referees     :   Vicki    (604) 266-2421   vicki.domanski@ubc.ca
Web page         :   http://mindlink.net/md/

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 01:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: RPGs and Fundimentalism

I've never seen the problem folks have with demons magic and similar 
things in RPGs.  It would sound like a very interesting exercise for a 
devote Christian to play a deep and detailed character who was corrupt 
and summoned demons.  This is fiction, just like novels and movies, and in 
fiction we can explore possibilities.  Some wonderful, some horrible, 
some simply interesting.  

The only games that have ever made me uncomfortable are one with implicit
prejudice (sometimes the game designer's, most often the GM's).  I'll 
play in a sexist or racist setting (heck, that's implicit in almost all 
historical RPG settings) but not if the GM enjoys or agrees with these 
attitudes.

I've seen religious bigotry in games, including anti-Christian bigotry
(and being a Wiccan Priest I've also noticed a whole lot of rather
wretched and offensive portrayals of Witches and other pagans).  Such
things have no place in gaming, but playing with ideas does.  I've always
believed that if a game isn't challenging your ideas or your morality in
some way it's not a very good game. 

If a game makes you uncomfortable don't play it, I've yet to see a game 
(or any other work of art) which was *evil* or wrong.


- -John jsnead@netcom.com
 

------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:27:20 GMT
Subject: Re: It seems impossible...

Re tasks being too easy...

This has bothered me for a while too. One solution that occurred to me, that would
kill 2 birds with one stone: Simply replace any d3 by another d6...thus Impossible
becomes 6d6 (avg: 21).

Of course, this still doesn't get rid of the fact that attributes bias too highly...

Mark Buckley


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 04:55:43 -0700
Subject: Re: none...

Loren wrote:
> Supplements sold many times more units than adventures. Rules books
> like Mercenary sold even better. Adventures are necessary for the long
> term survival of the game, but money is necessary for the short term
> survival of the company. I spend three weeks writing an adventure, it
> sells 5000 copies. I spend the same amount of time doing a supplement,
> it sells 15000. (Actually, it was more like: "Loren spends a month
> designing a product versus Loren spends a month developing two
> products).
> 
>  None of this is meant to be interpreted as saying adventures are not
> very important to a game.
> 
>      Loren "Discretion" Wiseman
>          GDW Emeritus

Loren,

It is always good to hear it from someone such as yourself.  I do not 
pretend to know anything about the gaming business.  What I do know about 
is playing role playing games.  I've played almost constantly for the 
last 14 years--through high school, through college, through my medical 
sales career, to the the present where I juggle my hobby with owning my 
own business.

What I've always loved about Traveller was the background and the general 
feel of the game.  What I've always hated was that it was so hard to 
play.

I'll elaborate.  I own all of the CT adventures and double adventures, 
and all of the MT adventures published by GDW.  Except for some of the 
latter, like Knightfall, basically what you got when you bought a GDW 
adventure was a lot of great background info with a vague idea of how to 
use this in a game.  GDW's adventures are what I call supplements.

Contrast this with what TSR was/is putting out (as far as I'm concerned, 
the only two games worth anything are AD&D and Traveller).  You get 
richly detailed NPCs, complete maps, and pre-generated stats--all at the 
referee's fingertips.  

As a consumer, this is one of the main reasons why I, and everyone I've 
ever gamed with over the last decade and a half, have always purchased 
much more AD&D products than Traveller items.  

It was just too hard a sell.  You got more for your money with the more 
detailed items.  

Take, for instance, my current gaming group.  We've been playing 
Traveller for close to a year know, but this is only because of one 
reason.  I "convinced" them to play (read:  I refused to referee AD&D 
until they tried this game).  It was a very hard sell for me.  And, it is 
interesting to note that four out of six of them had never played it at 
any length, and the other two hadn't even heard of it before!  We're 
talking about avid gamers aged 25 to 33!

You may ask, "Why didn't you start a game before?"  Well, I did, but I 
learned the hard way how much time I had to devote to Traveller versus 
the time AD&D required.  

So, you have my reasons behind what I said.  If a game doesn't have 
interesting, well designed adventures to play, the game is just not worth 
playing.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #511
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 512

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: I am going to give it a go...
         2. JTAS???
         3. Errata and missing tables
         4. Flame-proof-vesty-bunny (Religion)
         5. Re: Psionicist Generation
         6. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
         7. Re: Female Gamers
         8. Re: I am going to give it a go...
         9. Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)
        10. Skills and Doing the Impossible
        11. Re: RED ZONE: An adventure - Long Reply
        12. Culture shock: AKA Freaking the Mundanes
        13. Re: Silly adventure idea
        14. RE: Movie name changes etc
        15. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        16. Core Sector/Subsector

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

     Kenneth and Joe Walsh may be disagreeing on what makes a "good" 
published scenario:

   The way I see it, rpg adventures basically come in tow types (although 
over time type 1 has become less and less common): the first type is a
development from the old TSR and Judges Guild "dungeon modules" where the
adventure book basically describes a location in a lot of detail, including
background, inhabitants, points of interest, and reasons why characters 
would want to go there, but doesn't have a "plot" as such.  The best example
I can think of for this type is the old RuneQuest adventure "Griffin 
Mountain" which, over 200 pages, provided enough raw material to keep a
campaign going for years (literally!) without having any fixed "events" that
will push or pull PCs towards any specific goal.  The weakness of this type
of adventure is that with an unimaginative or lazy GM or group of players
it can become nothing more than aimles wandering through endless series of
locations getting in fights, gathering up treasure, and moving on.
   The second type of adventure is basically the opposite, where the book
is structured by Events leading towards a Goal and the only background info
provided is what's necessary to stage those events.  The best example I can
think of here is "The Traveller Adventure" (also around 200pp).  The chief
problem here (this may be my bias showing) is that particularly innovative
and imaginative groups of players will do things outside the envisioned
scope of the adventure, leaving the GM the choice of improvising (in which
case he might as well not be using a published scaenario at all) or 
attempting to railroad the players, which (if they catch on) is always 
disappointing.  In a good adventure of this type (like "The Traveller 
Adventure") the plot is loose enough and the background described in
enough depth that it shouldn't become a problem most of the time, but how
many 200page adventures are you going to come across? (The answer: more and
more, but at commensurate prices-- the days of the $5 adventure seem to be
long gone)
    In page-for-page usefulness, I greatly prefer the first style-- give me
a solid enough basis in factual background info and I can improvise plenty 
of plots from it; improvising the nuts-and-bolts (world descriptions,
character backgrounds/profiles, stats) is harder to do in the heat of a 
game, at least for me.  I think it's a shame that Public Opinion (possibly
based on people's own memories of their immature "dungeon-crawling" days)
seems to hold the second type as the more Mature or Legit, and look down
upon the first type.  Since IG so far doesn't seem to be too concerned with
what's "fashionable" (judging by the "retro" look and feel of T4) I hope
that they'll carry the same philosophy into adventure design and at very
least give the players/GMs a choice of adventure styles.

Boy I sound like a conservative old fogey for being a 21-year old College
student who started gaming in the mid-80s and bought both of the above-cited
adventures in second-hand shops,

Trent Smith 


------------------------------

From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Date: Tue,  8 Oct 96 09:01:00 GMT 
Subject: JTAS???

> I also subscribed to JTAS a few months ago
    Oh that's back now hmmm?  Too bad they couldn't put an ad for THAT on the
back cover of the T4 rules! <sigh> How do you subscribe to it?

Stephen

------------------------------

From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Date: Tue,  8 Oct 96 08:59:00 GMT 
Subject: Errata and missing tables

Hi All,
    Just joined the list and...

> My assertion still stands.  Guy and the good folks at GDW-Beta
> designed QSDS (and did a great job IMO) and just plain forgot
> to send the J-Drive table to IG along with the rest of the
> submission, and neither party realized it until after the book
> had gone to the printers...  Amongst 16 pages of tables, it'd
> be real easy to overlook 1, and that's probably what happened.
> Again I state that this should have been no real surprise to
> the members of this list, at least unless you joined VERY recently..
    I see others have noticed that little glaring ommission too. <GRIN> So
WHERE can I get that table?  And more importantly is the forthcoming Starship
Book going to have the expanded design rules?  I mean yeah I can go back and
use the MegaTraveller rules, but since T4 IS being published I'd rather use
that system unless the expanded design system is going to be a rehash of
previous design systems.

    Oh BTW is there an Erata sheet for the T4 Book that I can find/get?

Many thanks in advance...

Stephen

------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 10:27:48 +0100
Subject: Flame-proof-vesty-bunny (Religion)

Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> responded (Re: My hobbies...) to my post:
>> I forgot to add to my previous mail, that I DO tell people I play RPGs, but
>> after emphasising my black belt in karate. It seems to make them remarkably
>> more open-minded about what I'm saying!
>> P.S. Then I tell them about the satanistic rites we perform in our AD&D
games...
>If I still played AD&D, I'd tell 'em we only _spank_ the virgins, Andy, not
drink their 
>blood. ;)

I save that for anyone arriving at my door trying to: (a) survey me, (b)
convert me to their religion. Works real well when you've got overalls with
large red smears down the front... (it's paint, ok? But they don't know that!)

Reminds me of my friend who used to invite in Mormons, sit them down
opposite his array of occult books, offer them tea, coffee or alcohol, then
spend an hour ripping their religion to shreds and mentioning, in passing,
the pentacle inscribed on his floor under the carpet. Never seen people move
so fast for the door... :-) (hope this doesn't offend any Mormons on the
group. I'm an agnostic, so I keep an open mind but I'm more likely to
believe in flying saucers than the 'average' person's view of God).

>blood drinking parties on Samhain . . . or was that Beltane? Gotta keep the 

Beltane. Now that's fun!

Andy :-)

P.S. Boy is this stuff off-track, but it's fun!

P.P.S. When's someone going to suggest running Traveller demos for Sunday
Schools? What better way to introduce children to the GOOD side of RPGs. All
you need are some suitable scenarios which clearly have GOOD vs. BAD and in
which, perhaps you could allow a smattering of violence but which really
relied upon character interaction and planning to win the game?

Come on guys (and gals, remembering recent sexism debate), let's see a
little more positive "GET OUT THERE AND PROMOTE IT". It's very easy to sit
at a terminal and type all this stuff, particularly the doom and gloom about
how T4's got errata. Hell! (ooops can I say that with all these religious
types around?) I've been writing technical reports for years and I go
through them with a fine toothcomb and they're reviewed by others and...
etc. Needless to say there are always some errors.

So, stop talking and get out there and do your bit in converting people to
T4!!!!

And if you want more than one adventure for Milieu 0, then e-mail me telling
you what you want CORE and BITS to publish next!!!


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:13:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Psionicist Generation

Joe Walsh wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> I took it to mean that you could get +1 Psi to your Psionics
> characteristic, but the maximum is 12 if the character is over 18 (which,
> unless the circumstances are very special and referee-sanctioned, should
> always be the case for player characters).  That is, if you get a
> character with a Psi score of 8, s/he can increase that level to a
> maximum of 12 during the character generation process.
> 

Thanks for the feedback, Joe. I was a little concerned about having
a potential host of Darth Vaders running around Sylea. :-)

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:18:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Ken, you bring up an interesting point.
> 
> I've often wondered just what *we* think is impossible.  <g> I've listed
> the 5 task levels and 5 skill levels below.  Let's do a little survey...

You mean 6 task levels and 5 skill levels below, Eris!
 
> What percentage chance of success to you think each skill level should have
> for each task level?

Eris, this needs more qualification. I think skill level should be used as a base 
modified by the governing attribute--not the other way around.  

People should be good at shooting guns because they practice shooting targets and have 
experience using weapons in combat situations (in other words, they have a good 
weapon skill)--not because they have a good dexterity.  

Yes, a high Dex (meaning good hand-eye coordination) should improve their ability to 
shoot, but not allow them to shoot well if they know nothing about it and have never 
experienced it.  

This is what the T4 system is saying--a good Dex allows you to shoot well.  Take, for 
instance, two characters.  John has a Dex of 4, which is well below average, and a 
Pistol-2 skill, which is respectable.  Sue does not have a pistol, but she has always 
been quicker than anyone she has ever known, with a Dex of 12.  

Under the T4 system, these two characters' chance at hitting a target is exactly the 
same (Sue uses the zero level rule giving her a target number of 1/2 the attribute).

Does it seem right to you that John, with a respectable level 2 pistol skill, would be 
so handicapped by his Dex that he would hit the same amount of time as Sue does, 
eventhough Sue has never fired a weapon in her life?  Or that Sue is so darned quick and 
coordinated that she can pick up a pistol for the first time and use it with the same 
expertise as another person with a skill level 2? 

I say no, it does not seem right.      


But, on with your survey...
In order to compare apples to apples, we need a base line reference from which to 
compare from.  I would have suggested taking a character with an average characterisitc 
of 7.  That way, anybody who answers this question can ask himself, "What chance of 
success would I give an average person with an average skill attempting an easy task?  
an average task? a difficult task, etc."

>                                        Highly
>             Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert
>              (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)
> -----------+-------------------------------------------
> Easy       |
> Average    |
> Difficult  |
> Formidable |
> Staggering |
> Impossible |

Looking at the numbers you listed, we would have to use a person slightly below average 
in his attribute because of the starting value of 6 in the novice column.  
Using a character with a 5 ability score.  That would mean the novice has a skill level 
of 1, the average skilled person would have a level 4 skill, and the other levels would 
be 7, 10, and 13 respectively.

Of course, this is crazy.  I've been playing Traveller for a long time, and I've never 
seen a character with a skill level higher than 7 (CT/MT/T4, that is.  TNE used a 
different system, as we all know).  

If we're going to do this, let's do it right.

Our base line:  A character with an average characteristic of 7
		With an average skill level of 2

Given the base, here is my rough guesstimate, in round numbers, of what I think the 
success chance for each difficulty level should be:


Difficulty Level	Chance to Succeed	Chance to Fail
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Easy				95%			5%

Average				80%			20%

Difficult			40%			60%

Formidable			20%			80%

Staggering			10%			90%

Impossible			 5%			95%



So, Eris, and everyone else, what do you think about what I am proposing?

Respectfully,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:41:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Female Gamers

SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Back then I had only one other experience with GMs, and that was with a
> fellow who thought that it was standard procedure -- nay, a requisite -- that
> all female PCs be raped at least once per game. 

That IDIOT!

> The main GM in our group once confided to me (of running games for his
> college friends in the past) that the adding of female gamers into a group of
> otherwise crass, testosterone-pumped Southern "good ole boys" made running a
> game more bearable as it tended to cut down on the belching and farting and
> beer-spitting wars and make them behave themselves with some decorum -- in
> AND out of character.
> 

There's a female player in the group I game with that has added
tremendously to our sessions with her style of play and wit. As a matter
of
fact, every session in any group I gamed with which included a
woman/young lady
seemed to go smoother, though one or two gamers have been rather
bloodthirsty
(letting loose of a few inhibitions, maybe..but then so do I :-) ).
Although I admit to the occasional need for a crassness fix with my buds
("it's
a guy thing" as my wife would say), I'd much prefer doing without it
than doing
without a mixed group. You all (females) are just too neat to miss out
on (and,
no, my wife is not reading over my shoulder).

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 07:00:57 -0700
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>      Kenneth and Joe Walsh may be disagreeing on what makes a "good"
> published scenario:
> 
>    The way I see it, rpg adventures basically come in tow types (although
> over time type 1 has become less and less common): the first type is a
> development from the old TSR and Judges Guild "dungeon modules" where the
> adventure book basically describes a location in a lot of detail, including
> background, inhabitants, points of interest, and reasons why characters
> would want to go there, but doesn't have a "plot" as such.    The weakness of this type
> of adventure is that with an unimaginative or lazy GM or group of players
> it can become nothing more than aimles wandering through endless series of
> locations getting in fights, gathering up treasure, and moving on.
>    The second type of adventure is basically the opposite, where the book
> is structured by Events leading towards a Goal and the only background info
> provided is what's necessary to stage those events.  The best example I can
> think of here is "The Traveller Adventure" (also around 200pp).  The chief
> problem here (this may be my bias showing) is that particularly innovative
> and imaginative groups of players will do things outside the envisioned
> scope of the adventure, leaving the GM the choice of improvising (in which
> case he might as well not be using a published scaenario at all) or
> attempting to railroad the players, which (if they catch on) is always
> disappointing.  In a good adventure of this type (like "The Traveller
> Adventure") the plot is loose enough and the background described in
> enough depth that it shouldn't become a problem most of the time, but how
> many 200page adventures are you going to come across? (The answer: more and
> more, but at commensurate prices-- the days of the $5 adventure seem to be
> long gone)
>     In page-for-page usefulness, I greatly prefer the first style-- give me
> a solid enough basis in factual background info and I can improvise plenty
> of plots from it; improvising the nuts-and-bolts (world descriptions,
> character backgrounds/profiles, stats) is harder to do in the heat of a
> game, at least for me.  

I'm right behind you, Trent.  DGive me this type of adventure anyday.  
The second type of adventure that you mentioned is only a supplement as 
far as I'm concerned.  Does this come from being raised on AD&D?  


I think it's a shame that Public Opinion (possibly
> based on people's own memories of their immature "dungeon-crawling" days)
> seems to hold the second type as the more Mature or Legit, and look down
> upon the first type.  Since IG so far doesn't seem to be too concerned with
> what's "fashionable" (judging by the "retro" look and feel of T4) I hope
> that they'll carry the same philosophy into adventure design and at very
> least give the players/GMs a choice of adventure styles.

I'm not sure if I would consider the second type the more modern type.  I 
just think it is two different game philosophies at work.

I remember playing the old GDW adventures in the small books and being so 
frustrated at all the preparation time it required.  Even then, there 
were discussions about "true" role players being the ones who made up 
their own adventures.  I've always disagreed with that.

Give me a few well made adventures, and I'll string them together, change 
a few names and organization, and edit them to my liking to make a 
dynamite campaign.

It's like I'm the head writer at a successful TV show.  It is hard, and 
unecessary, for me to write the whole season by myself, so, I send all of 
the junior writers home for the weekend to come up with some episodes.  
Monday morning, we're stringing them all together to fit in sink with the 
goals for the show.

When I'm GMing, the published adventures are my junior writers.

I'm interested...how many of you out there prefer the type of 
adventure Trent and I like and how many like the vague ones?

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:13:21 +1000
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> Boyd Schneider wrote:
> > 
> > The Phoenix cleverly quipped:
> > 
> > >Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone
> > >could possibly need.  42.
> > 
> > Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?
> > 
> > hehehee                         ---Boyd
> 
> The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?
> 
Is that with or without Virus infested rocks?
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 

"That's verry important to you, all that theatrical stuff."

"It's everything Evey. The perfect entrance, the grand illusion. Its 
everything...and Im going to bring the house down. They have forgotten 
the drama of it all...you see, they abbandoned the scripts when the world 
withered in the glare of the nuclear footlights. Im going to remind them 
about melodrama. About  the tuppenny rush and the penny dreadfull...You 
see, Evey, al the world is a stage, and everything else....
is vaudeville."

Evey and V, V for Vendetta by Allen Moore and David Lloyd.


------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:01:56 +0100
Subject: Skills and Doing the Impossible

When I first proof-read the T4 rules I pointed out to IG that it seemed too
easy to succeed at certain tasks if you had a high attribute. Especially
when a task is called "Impossible", the players won't take it seriously if
they roll 4D (or whatever) and make it 50% of the time.

My solution is simple. You chuck the D3s (except where you want to use D3
increments as DMs instead of modifying the roll required to achieve
something - e.g. you say 4D, player suggests clever idea for aiding task,
you say, ok 3.5D rather than saying ok, you get +2).

Also, increase most tasks by about a D3 level and make really impossible
tasks about 6D. Even a relatively unskilled person has a very faint chance
of achieving this, while a real boffin would have a hard time, but could
succeed a fair proportion of the time.

A short period of playing the new system allows you to quickly determine the
levels at which you need to set tasks to make them seem challenging to the
players, i.e. to keep their interest.

It ain't broke, it just needs fine-tuning.

Andy :-)

P.S. I did try the half attribute system but that went too far the other way
and players failed too often...


------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:14:23 +0100
Subject: Re: RED ZONE: An adventure - Long Reply

David Joseph Smart writes:
> [...] android [..] had *all* psi abilities [...]

Virus is going to want this so bad it hurts.

I can see a major campaign device coming on here, particularly once
the Virus realises it needs a human to trigger any response
what-so-ever in the "demon"...


			Chris.


------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 06:15:25 +0000
Subject: Culture shock: AKA Freaking the Mundanes

having spent the better part of the last 20 years, gaming and in the 
SCA, I can sympathize. although since I live in a college town, its a 
little harder to outweird them. 

The Town of Normal isnt really, but they try to act like it.
its kind of amusing, especially when you consider this is the
birthplace of Traveller.

I have collected some odds and ends over the years, including a set 
of insignia for the Imperial Scout Service, which I obtained from 
Dave Sering at Judges Guild, he had them made while stationed 
someplace in the pacific. and usually wear them when I judge at 
conventions.
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:32:59 +1000
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

Re : Antimatter and Niven.
your attention to a story from the manga "2001 Nights" called Lucifer, 
where the Catholc Church funds a mission to a newly discovered 10th 
planet, filled with antimatter. It is one of the most powerfull 
stories I have ever seen in any media.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 

"That's verry important to you, all that theatrical stuff."

"It's everything Evey. The perfect entrance, the grand illusion. Its 
everything...and Im going to bring the house down. They have forgotten 
the drama of it all...you see, they abbandoned the scripts when the world 
withered in the glare of the nuclear footlights. Im going to remind them 
about melodrama. About  the tuppenny rush and the penny dreadfull...You 
see, Evey, al the world is a stage, and everything else....
is vaudeville."

Evey and V, V for Vendetta by Allen Moore and David Lloyd.


------------------------------

From: "TOM O'NEILL" <tom@csvax1.ucc.ie>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:47:42 BST
Subject: RE: Movie name changes etc

Recently, there was reference on the list to the American remake of the French
film "La Femme Nikita". In the US it was titled "Point of No Return". In the UK
and Ireland it was titled "The Assassin". I'm not sure what it was called in
the rest of Europe or the rest of the world for that matter.

In any case, this is common happening in the media. Films and books often
change titles when being sent to a different country, for marketing, legal or
other reasons. A name that sounds good in one language may have problems in
another. The name may already have been used by a recent product. The importer
may just prefer a different title. It is generally illegal to sell a product
intented for a particular market in any other.

The relevance of this to Traveller: Well, there are far more nations, planets
and cultures in Traveller than on Earth. Given a huge customer base, the media
industries should be really big business. However, I do see a lot of remakes
and rewrites taking place - the Imperium is too big to enforce copyright laws
for any but the most expensive cases, so taking a successful product, filing of
the serial numbers and placing it in your home culture would be fairly safe.
This also prevents successful authors, film stars and makers from being the
richest people in the universe. Loaded, yes, but not astronomically so.

                                               Tom

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE 
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

------------------------------

From: Declan Feeney <afeeney@tcp.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:52:34 -0000
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Kenneth Bearden wrote on 08-Oct-96:

>  People should be good at shooting guns because they practice shooting =
targets and have =

>  experience using weapons in combat situations (in other words, they ha=
ve a good =

>  weapon skill)--not because they have a good dexterity.  =


>  Yes, a high Dex (meaning good hand-eye coordination) should improve th=
eir ability to =

>  shoot, but not allow them to shoot well if they know nothing about it =
and have never =

>  experienced it.  =


>  This is what the T4 system is saying--a good Dex allows you to shoot w=
ell.  Take, for =

>  instance, two characters.  John has a Dex of 4, which is well below av=
erage, and a =

>  Pistol-2 skill, which is respectable.  Sue does not have a pistol, but=
 she has always =

>  been quicker than anyone she has ever known, with a Dex of 12.  =



Have you tryed a target number of:
       4 + (stat/2 round down) + Skill

and a Default (unskilled) target number of:
      2+ (Stat/4 round down) + JOT skill


This significantly reduces the effect of the Stat in a characters ability=
 to do something.
In your above example John has a target number of 8, while Sue has a targ=
et roll of 5.

For anyone with a UPP of 777777 it will make absolutely no difference.

Its the system I've adopted in my present campaign.


- -- =

Cheers,

Declan :^>


Declan Feeney
14 Thornhill Rd,
Edgerton,
Huddersfield,                             Tel: 00 44 1484 428408
HD3 3DD                                   Fax: 00 44 1484 312368
England

######################################################################
#                                                                    #
#     Homepage (PICH) at 'http://www.tcp.co.uk/~afeeney/             #
#                                                                    #
######################################################################


------------------------------

From: Declan Feeney <afeeney@tcp.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:52:59 -0000
Subject: Core Sector/Subsector

Anyone got any ideas how I can reconsile the differences between the T4
Core subsector map, and the Core Sector map I've been using with my
group for the last year ?

- -- 
Cheers,

Declan :^>


Declan Feeney
14 Thornhill Rd,
Edgerton,
Huddersfield,                             Tel: 00 44 1484 428408
HD3 3DD                                   Fax: 00 44 1484 312368
England

######################################################################
#                                                                    #
#     Homepage (PICH) at 'http://www.tcp.co.uk/~afeeney/             #
#                                                                    #
######################################################################


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 513

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: none... -Reply
         2. Re: female characters
         3. RE: Religion (Long Off-Topic FINAL Rant)
         4. Re: My hobbies...
         5. Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
         6. Last Religion Post, Please Read!
         7. Re: social-acceptance
         8. Re: Re: I am going to give it a go...
         9. Julian Protectorate
        10. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        11. Sticky Subjects (Religion)...
        12. Re: social-acceptance
        13. RE: none...
        14. RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
        15. Re: T4 Quality Control
        16. Re: Casting Stones
        17. Re: Cmdr Hold'Em 's comments
        18. Re: My hobbies...
        19. Re: Demonology etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 08:28:26 -0400
Subject: Re: none... -Reply

 Kenneth Bearden said:

>I'll elaborate.  I own all of the CT adventures and double adventures, 
>and all of the MT adventures published by GDW.  Except for some of
>the  latter, like Knightfall, basically what you got when you bought a
>GDW  adventure was a lot of great background info with a vague idea
>of how to  use this in a game.  GDW's adventures are what I call
>supplements.

>Contrast this with what TSR was/is putting out (as far as I'm
>concerned,  the only two games worth anything are AD&D and
>Traveller).  You get  richly detailed NPCs, complete maps, and
>pre-generated stats--all at the  referee's fingertips.  

I totally agree with you. My biggest pet peeve with the GDW adventures
was the phrase: "The Referee will need a map of the installation." That
phrase, in various forms, appears in almost every CT adventure. It
requires a lot of work for the referee. I've got a lot of  half-designed stuff
that was never used because I had to create a map that the players
never encountered. After dropping AD&D, I gave TSR another chance
with Marvel Super Heroes (no flames please), and adventures for that
game as well give all the details the referee will need. It is extremely
helpful for those with limited time to prepare.

Let's hope future IG adventures give more stats and details than Rubicon
Cross!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:12:20 +0100
Subject: Re: female characters

     
     Rich Ostorero wrote:
     
     > Simon John Harding wrote:
     
     > <<a bit o' deletia>>
     > > 
     > > I have to 
     > > admit she was modelled somewhat from the character in the French 
     > > movie 'Nikita' or in the American re-make 'The Assasin'.
     
     > The American remake starred Bridgette Fonda, IIRC, but the title was 
     > not "The Assassin." 
     > Good movie, just caught it on teevee a few weeks ago, but I can't 
     > remember the title right now.
     
     It was released under the name "The Assassin" in Britain, although I'm 
     pretty sure this wasn't the original (i.e. American release) name.  
     "Nikita" was also the British release name; it was originally "La 
     Femme Nikita".  (The funniest cross-Atlantic rename I heard about was 
     the British comedy starring Robbie Coltrane which changed from "The 
     Pope Must Die" -> "The Pope Must Diet"...)
     
     Go see "La Femme Nikita" - preferably in the dark with no distractions 
     for the full effect.  It is infinitely superior to the remake.  I have 
     great difficulty talking coherently about this film because it had 
     such an effect on me.  I certainly didn't enjoy the first half hour of 
     the film (I nearly walked out after the first scene), but I class it 
     in my top 5 favourite films now.  The soundtrack makes good back 
     background music for gaming sessions too :-).
     
     I can't wait for Luc Besson's sci-fi flick to come out.
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     

------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:02:08 +0900
Subject: RE: Religion (Long Off-Topic FINAL Rant)

Richard L. Sezov writes:

>>That statement makes no sense. Science is a tool; you're using it as a
religion, using it as the defining source for your beliefs. Science can't
enter philosophical / religious realms, because it isn't equipped to do 
so.
It's like trying to use a hammer to tighten a nut. Can science prove the
existence of love? Can it prove the existence of friendship? Hate?
Ideas? No, but we all know they exist.

Strictly speaking, all the emotions you describe are biochemical processes 
in the brain, so yes, science can prove the existence of these things.  Even 
if it can't yet, that only shows that there is room for further advancement 
in science, not that science has failed.  Science is about finding answers, 
not about saying you have them all to begin with.  Religion's (any 
religion's) claim to have all the answers does not hold water with me.

Second, I am not using science as a religion.  I have no religion, and I see 
no need for it whatsoever.  Perhaps I am using science "as the defining 
source for [my] beliefs," but I don't agree that that is the province of 
religion alone.  I do not recognize the validity of religion as an 
epistomological tool, and so I look at the things religion declares to be 
true from as scientific a viewpoint as I can muster. Real life is all the 
same to me, whether someone else thinks part of it is dictated by religious 
rules or not.  If someone says demons, etc. are real, then I to analyze that 
statement scientifically just as I would any other claim of fact.  When I 
say occult beings/spells, etc. have no basis in fact, then I mean that 
without falling upon faith in religion (unscientific), you have no evidence 
for their existence.  I cannot agree with the basic premise of the logic 
used by religion.  Any statement that these things do exist is strictly 
opinion, no matter how many millions of people agree over how many 
centuries.  And although everyone has a right to their opinion, that does 
not give anyone the right to enforce it as fact (which is what I see 
extremely religious types trying to do).

Third, in its ideal form, religion is blind faith in unchanging doctrinal 
truths.  Ideally, science is the seeking out of fact through observation, 
always allowing for rejection of disproved theories.  Religion does not 
tolerate new ideas that go against its teachings, science welcomes new ideas 
that disprove old theories.  That is the advancement of science.  I remind 
you that I said "ideal."  Please don't come back with anecdotes about how 
Professor So-and-So refused to let go of his pet theory even when it was 
clearly disproved.  That's Professor So-and-So's human weakness, not 
science.

Finally, based on what I have said, I find science to be superior to 
religion as an epistemological tool.  I have no religion, only an 
epistemological tool.  I have no need of religion whatsoever.

>>As an athiest, you may want to check out
http://www.cleaf.com/~covenant. That's the web site for Southern
California Center for Christian Studies. They sell a tape with a debate
between Greg Bahnsen, probably the 20th Century's formost Christian
apologist (he died last November) and Gordon Stein, a reknowned
athiest.

If you are meaning to show me an objective fair discussion, then thank 
you.

If you are meaning to enlighten me by showing me a model case of how an 
atheist was proven wrong by the religious, then no thank you.  I am an 
atheist through my own individual personal choices.  The conversion of 
another random atheist has no bearing on me whatsoever.

I am perfectly pleased to study religion from an objective viewpoint (as 
history, culture, anthropology, etc.), and it's fascinating.  However, I 
will not actually believe any of it because I am an atheist.  Anecdotes 
about Mr. Atheist getting whupped by Mr. Religion in a debate make no 
difference to me.  I think as an individual.

>>Any other discussions on this topic should probably be done privately.
You can send me mail at either of the two addresses below.

Your message should have been sent privately as well.  I'm sorry, but I felt 
I had to respond to your challenge as you responded to my statement publicly 
(which I tried very hard to state as diplomatically and fairly as I could). 
 Hereafter, I will respond to you privately if you wish to continue this 
discussion.

Perhaps we should avoid this sticky topic on the TML.  Unless someone quotes 
me on this issue again and posts it publicly (which I view as a direct 
personal challenge), I promise to show good manners and refrain from 
engaging in this off-topic flame-prone discussion.

Armand

PS Traveller is Great!!


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:34:07 -0500
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 21:39:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: My hobbies...
>
>We do have our problems, though.  There is the continuing problem of
>ritualistic cat killings, for instance, Satanic Rituals are hinted at..the
>pentagons on the walls of buildings don't help either. There haven't been
>any church burnings lately, and the local statues of ML King and RE Lee
>have been unmolested for several months now. The arson, explosions, and
>murders at the abortion clinics seem to have died down, but that seems to
>be seasonal..spring madness.

Aw gee, Eris.  You brought a tear to my eye.  All that stuff just makes me
think of home in the beloved South. :)

Just kidding folks!!!

Ducking to avoid near c rocks...


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:34:09 -0500
Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:59:37 -0500
>Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
>
>What percentage chance of success to you think each skill level should have
>for each task level?

Well, I guess we are about due, it has been a while since we had an honest
to goodness survey here on the list. :)

Well, here goes my shot at the answer, of course, this assumes the person
does have SOME skill level and we are not talking about just attribute...

>                                       Highly
>            Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert
>             (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)
>- -----------+-------------------------------------------
>Easy       | 80%      90%      100%     100%    100%
>Average    | 65%      80%       90%      95%    100%
>Difficult  | 45%      60%       75%      85%     90%
>Formidable | 25%      40%       55%      70%     80%
>Staggering | 10%      20%       30%      50%     65%
>Impossible |  5%      10%       15%      20%     30%


These are just a quick guess (I'm at work).


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:34:11 -0500
Subject: Last Religion Post, Please Read!

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:18:16 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)
>
>On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:
>
>> Joe Walsh said:
>> 
>> I just thought I would add one annotation to what Joe Walsh said:
>> 
>> While I am not a Baptist, in fairness to those who are, Baptist churches are 
>> autonomous:  what one church may frown on, another church may have a more
laid 
>> back attitude.  (esp. concerning dancing, music, women's clothing, etc.)
>
>
>Sheesh.  Well, I'm not an expert on the Baptist faith...I'm sorry for the 
>mistake.  I was just going by what Paul told me, and I was taking it out 
>of context and of course stating it in terms of how I understood what he 
>said (which may not be necessarily what he meant).

I have no recollection of that, senator!  (Is that what I'm supposed to say?)

<grin>

Seriously, This is my last post on the matter, and the reason I'm posting
this is to prevent me from being mis understood.  When I talked to Joe about
the issues above, it was telling him about where I differed from some of the
specific views of my church.  Someone else has said, and I will now
reiterate, Baptist are as diverse as shades of skin (for lack of a better
metaphore).  The point being that I in no way meant toimply that ALL Baptist
churches believe this way.  This is my fault, cause I sometimes forget that
everyone else didn't have the same background and experience as me, and
therefore doesn't understand exatcly what I am saying. :)

Sorry for this last post, but I don't want to be labeled as a legalistic
Fundamentalist, just as a Fundamentalist (ie, someone who believes the
fundamentals of the faith(in this case Christianity)).

>
>
>- -Joe (Shuttin' up about religion on here from now on)

Shuttin'n up with Joe...


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:34:05 -0500
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 22:12:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: social-acceptance
>
>On 10/07/96 at 12:27 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:
>
>>...is as intolerant as the most red-necked regions of the storied 
>>American South, and it is getting worse. Relocation IS in my future . . .
>
>Most of the stories about the south are just that...stories!  We
>southerners start most of them, and enjoy cultivating our reputation with
>outsiders.  It's our perverse sense of humor...we fousted Jeff Foxworthy on
>ya'll after all.  <g>
>
>If you want to relocate, come on down.  After you've been here 30 or 40
>years you might be allowed to be a Southerner too.  <g>

It takes longer than that unless you can start using southern words like
ya'll, y'un'to, and yusta could.  But as long as you don't act like a Yankee
too much, we will be hospitable. :)


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Oct 1996 09:55:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: I am going to give it a go...

>I just can't stand adventures that expect me to herd the PC's from place 
>to place to suit some author's story line.

Amen.

I liked the DGP nugget format, in that encounters and so on were neatly
encapsulated, with a diagram showing different ways of moving between them,
as well as dependencies (ie. the players should hear this rumour before
encountering this person).  But then, I also liked the older CT narrative
approach, which provided a nice feel for the referee.

Given my druthers, I'd like to see a nugget-style adventure, with notes about
which choices the playtest groups made.

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 96 10:15:28 -0400
Subject: Julian Protectorate

>Hey! Wait a minute... what about Meshan, Mendan & Amdukan?? These
>aren't Vargr holdings... they're part of the Julian Protectorate
>and have _never_ been part of Imperial space... who the hell is 
>the Julian Protectorate and why the heck haven't they been assimilated??
>Geez, maybe the Marches were Cleon's last hope for new territory...

They were part of the 1st Imperium, and maybe 2nd Imperium ( I
obviously failed my canon roll :) They were a mixture of human and
vargr planets. Some worlds had both races living together. There is
also a extremly anti-vargr Civlization.
This was discussed in Challenge somewhere.  The 3rd Imperium tried to
conquor these sectors but failed and only was able to conquor Antares. 
This is discussed in the MT rules, in the map that shows all the wars
the Imperium fought.  Archduke Brzk joins up with the rest of hte
Julian Protectorate after taking his domain out of the Imperium during
the rebellion.  
  

Lewis Roberts
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Wanted: One Cool Sig
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:10:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Here's my take on it, Eris:

                                        Highly          Super
             Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert  Geek
              (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)   (21)
 -----------+-----------------------------------------------
 Easy       | 80%      95%      100%     100%    100%   100%
 Average    | 65%      80%       95%      99%    100%   100%
 Difficult  | 50%      65%       80%      95%     99%   100%
 Formidable | 35%      50%       65%      80%     95%    99%
 Staggering | 20%      35%       50%      65%     80%    95%
 Impossible |  5%      20%       35%      50%     65%    80%


Note:  This assumes that some skill level exists.  If no skill, 
       the probabilities would be greatly reduced.
       "100%" means that no roll is required. 
       Percentages are rough approximations, and would have to be
       adjusted based on what can be realistically achieved by using
       six-siders.


By the way, is anyone taking into account the fact that, under T4, a 
roll that results in *two* dice showing the maximum possible (6 in the  
case of D6's, 3 in the case of D3's) is /always/ a failure, even if 
the total of the roll was less than or equal to the target number 
(i.e., a 2.5D roll of 6,1 (D6) and 3 (D3), for a total of 10, with a 
target number of 11-, is a failure)?  This does affect the probability
of success for Impossible tasks...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:28:51 -0800
Subject: Sticky Subjects (Religion)...

Jeez guys, now that we've got that whole religion thing out of the 
way, lets talk about something a little less controversial to the 
list...

Like Virus infected ships dropping relativistic rocks on feudal 
technocracies or some such...  :-P

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:52:36 -0800
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

On  7 Oct 96 at 22:12, Eris Reddoch spewed:

> with outsiders.  It's our perverse sense of humor...we fousted Jeff
> Foxworthy on ya'll after all.  <g>

The punchline is that Foxworthy is from Indiana, which is not part of 
the South...
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 14:30:54 UT
Subject: RE: none...

Loren Wiseman said:
>>>
Supplements sold many times more units than adventures. Rules books
like Mercenary sold even better. Adventures are necessary for the long
term survival of the game, but money is necessary for the short term
survival of the company. I spend three weeks writing an adventure, it
sells 5000 copies. I spend the same amount of time doing a supplement,
it sells 15000. (Actually, it was more like: "Loren spends a month
designing a product versus Loren spends a month developing two
products).
<<<end quote.

Maybe we (the refs) should write supplements too!  I know I always enjoyed the 
supplements.  Although I got a lot of distance from the background material 
(rumors) in Adventure 1: The Kinunir.

I have found that I can teach more to my players about the Imperium through a 
rumor than by simply telling them.  In the adventure, they are hungry for 
information, so I hand them a rumor, and they scribble it down in their notes. 
 If I simply tell them before or during a game session, they look at me and 
nod their little pointy heads.  Needless to say, I use a lot of rumors now.  
<grin>

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 14:05:58 UT
Subject: RE: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish)

Joe Walsh said:
>On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

>> I just thought I would add one annotation to what Joe Walsh said:
<snip>

>Sheesh.  Well, I'm not an expert on the Baptist faith...I'm sorry for the 
>
>-Joe (Shuttin' up about religion on here from now on)

That's no big deal, man.  If I was speaking about a game rule, physics, or 
other matter you wouldn't hesistate to add comments where you deemed 
appropriate.  I'm no expert either, and if you were speaking authoritatively 
on Presbytarians, Daoists, Jews, or Canadians <grin> I would have no idea 
whether or not you were in the money or not.  Don't shut up, if I wasn't 
interested in what you had to say, I wouldn't give you something to reply 
to...  ;-)>

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:23:17 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Quality Control

On  7 Oct 96 at 0:10, Thomas Biskup spewed:

> > Actually, that was me, and I was specifically thinking of the DM
> > Guide.
> 
> From what I remember it's editing was a little confusing, but it was

The editing wasn't confusing, it basically sucked...  You had the 
character creation stuff at the beginning of the book, right next to 
stuff on building keeps???  

So you go to equip the character now that you've generated him/her, 
right.  Look up the chapter on arms and equipment...  Wait, there is 
no chapter on arms and equipment...  The armor is on page 93, the 
weapons are on page 300+ and the equipment is somewhere in between, 
and BTW, the combat tables are near none of the above, and the combat 
tables aren't near the armor values either...and things are 
misspelled, the book is chock full of situation where 1 section of 
rules has no relationship to stuff written about on the same page...

Its amazing the book sold at all...but by then the D&D craze had 
already been launched, so it didn't have to be good...

> had _LOTS_ of great information for campaigns of all kind -- in
> contrast to the Traveller rulebook, which is just a skeleton.

Give me a skeleton.  I've read enough SF to write plot lines, and 
I've got enough ideas of my own.

OTOH, I will agree with you...  After getting used to the complexity 
of MT (which is, after bug fixes, my system of choice) reading T4 is 
like eating Chinese food, flavorful, but not entirely satisfying...

Stu "Who's looking for some meat on those T4 bones"  Dollar
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:31:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

On  7 Oct 96 at 18:04, Joe Walsh spewed:

> It's interesting just how much mis-information is propogated through
> UseNET.  
> 

Yup...  r.g.f.m is probably 1 of the worst in this respect, as 
well...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:42:40 -0800
Subject: Re: Cmdr Hold'Em 's comments

On  7 Oct 96 at 22:40, Rob Prior spewed:

> Ever published anything substantial under a deadline?  I've _never_
> seen anything published without errors, game company or no, and I've

A personal anecdote to add of my own here:

In my last job, which lasted about 3-1/2 years before they folded 
their tent, I published an in-house newsletter for about 200 people.  
Did it once a week.  Ran spell checkers and grammar checkers on it, 
invariably read it several times, and even gave it to a peer to check 
over...

About 1 out of 3 issues, there were STILL errors, much to my chagrin, 
and I consider myself to be a fairly good writer...

The worst part about it was that my boss was an ex-English teacher.  
If I had a dime for every memo, newsletter, or policy I'd written or 
typed up for him (I type faster than the admin. assistant we had, and 
he'd sometimes hand me something like this if pressed) that he'd 
given back to me proofread and marked up, I'd be a rich man... :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:45:14 -0800
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

On  7 Oct 96 at 20:48, Cmdr Hold'Em spewed:

> I though it stood for Society for Creative Anarchism
> 
Naw, you've just been playing Illuminati too much...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 11:59:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Demonology etc.

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> >Stop and consider how *you* would react if (for example), those clerics
> >were invoking Christ and various saints to perform miracles for them.
> >And were worshipping Jehovah.
> 
> Been there, done that.  Back in high school I played in a D&D game run by an
> Anglican priest.  He held our clerics to medieval Christian standards of
> morality, or they stopped being granted spells.  COme to that, we got more
> experience points for capturing bandits (so they could be hung after a fair
> trial) than we did for killing them.  Best D&D game I've ever played in.

You mean he allowed you to torture people and burn them to save their souls, and kill 
women who could swim (witches and all)

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 514

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Last Religion Post, Please Read!
         2. Re: Skills and Doing the Impossible
         3. SPI and TSR and GDW
         4. Re: My hobbies...
         5. Re: Realistic Income Model Proposal
         6. Re: social-acceptance -Reply
         7. test
         8. Re: It seems impossible...
         9. Re: Errata and missing tables
        10. Re: Probabilities
        11. Re: Skills and Doing the Impossible
        12. Re: Cleon & The marches
        13. Re: none... -Reply
        14. CORE subsector map
        15. Re: Jokes
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #512
        17. Re: My hobbies...
        18. To Peter Miller
        19. Spaceships and Psionics
        20. Re: To Peter Miller
        21. Re: Probabilities... and Jack of All Trades
        22. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:07:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Last Religion Post, Please Read!

Paul Walker wrote:

> >- -Joe (Shuttin' up about religion on here from now on)
> 
> Shuttin'n up with Joe...

zip...(followed by drawing of finger across lips)

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:29:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Skills and Doing the Impossible

Andy Lilly wrote:

> P.S. I did try the half attribute system but that went too far the other way
> and players failed too often...

Someone on this list has a page where he worked out all the probs of all task rolls and 
stats from 1-15 and skills from 1-12

He suggests (rather wisely) use half-attribute plus skill, but subtract 1D6 from all 
difficulties. Maybe give this a try. I would suggest use DGPs great task system (aka MT 
system, developed in the Travellers' Digest

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 8 Oct 96  9:07:32 MS
Subject: SPI and TSR and GDW

Rich Osterero said:
>I stopped playing D&D for two reasons. One: When TSR bought SPI out, I was a 
subscriber 
>to SPI's magazine _Strategy and Tactics_. TSR chose to not honor the subs of 
SPI's 
>customers. In fact, they offered me a "discount," asking me to pay once again 
for 
>something I already had: a 3-year sub to S&T. I could not bear this insult to 
my 
>intelligence, not to mention my wallet, so I wrote the Powers-that-Be at TSR 
at the time 
>and told them that they have lost a customer -- for good, forever. I estimate 
that TSR 
>lost thousands of dollars over the years in business from me in products I 
*didn't* buy. 

(Feeling the blood pressure rising rapidly)  Grrrrrrrr
In the summer between my junior and senior years of high school, I worked a 
morning paper route so that I could get a lifetime subscription to S&T.  I did 
so, and that fall SPI vanished.  I was enraged at TSR for their pathetic 
"discount" offer, and made a blood oath to never buy TSR stuff again.  Later, I 
heard that the powers-that-were at SPI were well aware of their financial 
instability when they began their big lifetime subscription advertising push, 
and had been largely trying to sell subscriptions to make the company look a 
little more appealing for potential acqiusition.  I've never heard the "real 
story" from the SPI people (and I would love to hear it), but this version is 
one I've heard several times in newsgroups and in print.

One good thing came of that; I did have enough money left to go to a really big 
science fiction convention that summer.  While strolling the market tables for 
some good books, I found this little black box with red and white lettering.  
My friend and I stayed up all that night learning the rules and playing 
Traveller.  Just as something I loved died, something else came into my life.  
Intersting how all of them involved three letter acronyms.

I like symmetry.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:48:16 +0000
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On  7 Oct 96 at 20:48, Cmdr Hold'Em spewed:
> 
> > I though it stood for Society for Creative Anarchism
> >
> Naw, you've just been playing Illuminati too much...

Okay, this time I did spew

How about Some Communists About?

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:46:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Realistic Income Model Proposal

On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Mark Ayers wrote:

> Request for Comment:
> 
> Realistic Income Model: a Traveller House Rules Expansion

Nice job on this, by the way.  I finally got a chance to print it out, 
and it looks very good.  Sorry for the delay in responding to your post.


- -Joe


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:53:41 -0400
Subject: Re: social-acceptance -Reply

 Rich Ostorero stated:

>My NeoPagan friends had the same problems in college; certain
>elements of the Christian  Fellowship tried to get the school's Pagan
>Club banned from campus under similar grounds  . . . fortunately, the
>Bay Area is another region where a degree of sanity prevails, and  it
>was a college, where different standards apply. 

That's interesting; I had the exact opposite experience in college: the
college didn't want us starting a Christian group on campus because
"religion" had no place there. We eventually got it started, but with no
funding from the Student Government Association.

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 10:20:58 -0700
Subject: test

I'm having problems posting to the list, pardon the test message.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:25:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: It seems impossible...

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I can see your point to a degree.  I can see a character being Mr. Bad 
> Dude in his specialty.  The problem is the attribute based task system.

Kenneth,

As I mentioned in the post, you may want to look into the 1/2 attribute 
system suggested by several people.  There are variations to it, but 
that's the essential starting point.  Either 1/2 attribute plus skill 
with 1D6 less per difficulty level, or 1/2 attribute plus 2*skill, etc.


Best wishes,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:31:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Errata and missing tables

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996 s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:

>     I see others have noticed that little glaring ommission too. <GRIN> So
> WHERE can I get that table?  And more importantly is the forthcoming Starship
> Book going to have the expanded design rules?  I mean yeah I can go back and
> use the MegaTraveller rules, but since T4 IS being published I'd rather use
> that system unless the expanded design system is going to be a rehash of
> previous design systems.

Hi Stephen,

You can get the missing table from IG's web site, at 
http://www.imperiumgames.com.  Just go there and click on errata.

Starships will have a more expanded system of design rules.  And an even 
more expanded system of design rules (the type where you can practically 
design each individual bolt used on the ship) will be out sometime next 
year.


>     Oh BTW is there an Erata sheet for the T4 Book that I can find/get?

The hardbound copy had one that shipped with it..dunno when/if IG will be 
distributing these to the stores.  But, IG's web site has a more complete 
version of the errata sheet anyway.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Declan Feeney <afeeney@tcp.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:33:47 -0000
Subject: Re: Probabilities

Statistical analysis of the T4 suggsets the following for Task Tests: =

Probability of Success

                             Target Number                    Spectac.  S=
pectac.
                      3      6      9     12     15     18    Failure   S=
uccess
                   ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ --------- --=
- -------
Easy       (Auto)   100%   100%   100%   100%   100%   100%       0%     =
   0%
Easy       (1.5D)  16.7%  66.7%   100%   100%   100%   100%       0%     =
 5.6%
Average     (2D)    8.3%  41.7%  83.3%  97.2%  97.2%  97.2%     2.8%     =
 2.8%
Difficult  (2.5D)   0.9%  17.6%  57.4%  90.7%  97.2%  97.2%     2.8%     =
 0.9%
Formidable  (3D)    0.5%   9.3%  37.5%  74.1%  92.1%  92.6%     7.4%     =
 0.5%
Staggering (3.5D)   0.2%   2.3%  17.1%  49.8%  81.5%  92.1%     7.4%     =
 0.2%
Impossible  (4D)    0.1%   1.2%   9.7%  33.4%  65.0%  83.3%    13.2%     =
 0.1%

Since the Target number is  Skill + Stat, this gives a gross advantage to=
 people with
high stats, and Impossible tasks are frequently very easy !!!

I at the moment use a system I have already suggested on this list - I wo=
rk
out the Target number as follows:

Target Number =3D 4 + Skill + (Stat / 2 (Round Down))

and for Unskilled (Default) use:

Target Number =3D 2 + Jack-Of-All-Trades + (Stat / 4 (Round Down)).


However, this system while simple, still makes some attempts too easy. On=
e of my
players has suggested:

Target Number =3D (Skill x2) + Stat

Difficulties =3D Easy        (Auto / 1D)
               Average     (2D)
               Difficult   (3D)
               Formidable  (4D)
               Staggering  (5D)
               Impossible  (6D)

Which solves both problems.


Cheers,

Declan :^>



Declan Feeney
14 Thornhill Rd,
Edgerton,
Huddersfield,
HD3 3DD                                   Tel: 00 44 1484 428408
ENGLAND                                   Fax: 00 44 1484 312368

######################################################################
#                                                                    #
#     Homepage (PICH) at 'http://www.tcp.co.uk/~afeeney/             #
#                                                                    #
######################################################################


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:41:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Skills and Doing the Impossible

Andy Lilly wrote:
>(mucho snippage about making it harder for the PCs to achieve success at a task roll) 

> A short period of playing the new system allows you to quickly determine the
> levels at which you need to set tasks to make them seem challenging to the
> players, i.e. to keep their interest.
> 
> It ain't broke, it just needs fine-tuning.
> 
> Andy :-)
> 


Thanks for the comments, Andy.

I guess I've got two points to make here.  The first, the most obvious, 
is that there needs to be something done to improve the task system.  
You're right, there is no challange in it for the players as the T4 
system stands now.  

What fun is it for anybody if the main character of a story ALWAYS kicks 
the heck out of the bad guy, ALWAYS is the best at everything he does, 
and ALWAYS wins the scenario?  Drama is conflict, and nobody enjoys shows 
or books with these types of characters.

There has to be risk.  There has to be challange.  And, I believe in all 
good stories/series/books, the main character sometimes fails. 

More important is my second point.  I think it is crazy for this new 
edition of Traveller, "based on 20 years of game designing experience", 
to have such a gapeing problem with the basic game mechanic that the game 
is built on--its task system.

We GMs should not have to fix it.  IG should have fixed it before they 
put out the game.

If I sound bitter here, its because I'm trying so hard to really like 
Traveller.  I was so excited when I heard T4 was coming out.  I got the 
book, and I really liked the design and layout.  I couldn't wait to play 
it.  Now, I've played it, and the task system is just not living up to my 
expectations.  I wanted to be blown away with the game.  I want to get on 
TML and tell everybody how great the game is.  I want to tell all my 
friends.  Instead, I'm experiencing buyer's regret.

IG has disappointed me.

Above, you said, "It ain't broke, it just needs fine tuning."  I'd have 
to disagree with you, Andy.  I tinker with almost all other RPGs that I 
play.  With T4, it seems that I am re-writing it.

Not wanting to end on a bitchy note, let me say for the record, that I am 
here for the long haul.  I like Traveller so much that, although I hate 
that I have to do it, I'll do whatever it takes to make this game 
playable.  It that means re-writing the rules, then so be it.

Traveller is seductive.  Its background and detail capture my 
imagination.  It makes me wonder, and it makes me get excited about 
putting together a plot and mystery for my players to sift through.

Traveller is like that woman that you know is no good for you, but you 
just don't care.  All of your friends tell you to keep away, but you 
just can't.  It's animal and magnetic.  She's passionate, interesting, 
consuming, and if she craps on you once in a while, it only makes you 
want her more.

Well, I guess you get the idea...I really like Traveller.  It's the game 
mechanics that I have a problem with.

Regards to all,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 10:48:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

Perhaps the intial push towards the marches was a desire to add Vland to the
new Imperium.  Since Cleon claimed legitimacy from both prior Imperia,
having Vland under his wing would add weight to his claim.

The inertia of this drive would probably carry on to clearing Corridor and
the settlement of Deneb.  Wars are good for the economy, and the
Vlanni/Vargr Pacification campaigns would keep the money flowing for decades.

As a M:0 adventure hook, have the PCs find an ancient reference to a vast
empire of humans, somewhere "beyond Vland", who matain a utopia through the
use of magical powers.  Someone might want to outfit an expedition to find
this near-mythical people...

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:50:07 -0700
Subject: Re: none... -Reply

Richard L. Sezov wrote:

> 
> Let's hope future IG adventures give more stats and details than Rubicon
> Cross!
> Here, here, Rich!

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:01:06 -0400
Subject: CORE subsector map

>Anyone got any ideas how I can reconsile the differences between the T4
>Core subsector map, and the Core Sector map I've been using with my
>group for the last year ?

Yup. Use your map and don't use the one in the book. If you want to use a
planet, add it to your map or rename the planet in the adventure. That seems
like the best method to me.
                        Allen


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:29:38 PST
Subject: Re: Jokes

In mail you write:

> On 10/07/96 at 05:25 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:
>
>>Like the joke in the movie Rob Roy: "Why do Luthrens never (make love)
>>standing up? They  think that doing that leads to _dancing_.
>
> Good one! <g>
>
> Ok, why must you always take *2* Baptists fishing with you?  If you only
> take one he'll drink all your beer. <Ta Dump>

Ok, that does it!

A Catholic priest and a Lutheran Minister had been fishing buddies for
a long time. When they heard that the new Baptist minister was a
fisherman also, they invited him along on a fishing trip.

They had gotten the boat in the water and were just starting to fish at
their "special" spot, when the priest said "left my favorite lure back
at camp, be right back". And then he steps over the side ofe the boat
and walks twenty yards to shore getting only his feet wet. Then after
rummaging around in the camp, he walks back the same way. This boggles
the Baptist's mind a bit but he doesn't say anything.

They fish for about an hour and the Lutheran realizes he left his lunch
back at camp. He too, gets out of the boat, walks to shore getting only
his feet wet and then walks back. The Baptist is beside hinself. He
just *can't* let his faith be shown up by these too.

He makes an excuse about getting some drinks from camp, steps over the
side of the boat, and SPLOOSH! He's in the water over his head.

The Catholic turns to the Lutheran and says "I think we should have
told him about the rocks..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:07:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #512

>When I first proof-read the T4 rules I pointed out to IG that it seemed too
>easy to succeed at certain tasks if you had a high attribute. Especially
>when a task is called "Impossible", the players won't take it seriously if
>they roll 4D (or whatever) and make it 50% of the time.

I keep a chart on hand that tells me what the chance of success is. If I
feel the need to make a task tough, I just add a negative DM that brings it
down to the level I want. On the whole, my players don't mind having a
system that makes things a little easier on them. (Besides, one of my
players rolled a 14 when he needed a 13 or less and bounced his ship off an
asteroid. Things still go wrong from time to time.)
        One thing that confused me was when I first read the rules, I
thought that the DM's adjusted the Difficulty Level. In fact, they are added
to or subtracted from the target number! This seems to help with the task
system somewhat.
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:06:38 PST
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

In mail you write:

> On 10/07/96 at 11:17 AM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:
>
>>> Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" respons
>>> (and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
>>> more respect...
>
>>Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . . and
>>you can't  believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell people
>>about the Society for  Creative Anachronism. They think the initials stand
>>for "Satan's Church in America."
>
> Geeze Louise, Rich!  
>
> I live in the "armpit of the American South", the "heart of the Bible
> belt", and we aren't that bad!  <g> There's an SCA chapter/fiefdom in
> Pensacola, several comics and game stores, roleplaying is spotty, but all
> over the place, and we co-exist with the book/barbie/beatles burning
> Churches pretty well.

Actually, that "Satan's Church of America" (actually *Satannic*) bit
comes from a police officer who is a fanatic about witches, satanism,
etc, and goes around "teaching" police departments "how to deal with
cults". 

An awful lot of the members of the SCA think that the Board of
Directors is wrong to be just ignoring the guy and telling us to avoid
anything that might even *look* religious. We think we'd be better off
suing him for everything he's got and making an example of him.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:41:40 -0400
Subject: To Peter Miller

So, who's this Allen Sock who's appropriated my Red Zone adventure idea and
published it on your web page? Is he from Argyle? :)
                                Allen SHOCK

------------------------------

From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:53:34 -0500
Subject: Spaceships and Psionics

I've got a couple of questions for whomever:

1.  Can a starting player choose the Psionicist career?  There is a
mention of the Cr100000 cost of training in the Psionics chapter.  Do
we assume that this is waived for starting players?  Do they have to
have Psi of 9+.  Under Enlistment, it says See 'The Examination' but
that isn't very helpful.

2.  Also under Psionics, what's the difference between Psi Level and
+1 Psi?  I'm guessing that +1 Psi adds to your Psionic ability and,
therefore, Psi Level adds to your level in a discipline?  I guess this
makes sense.

3.  Regarding spaceships, it looks like we'll be limited to 6 G's of
acceleration.  Is this true?  Does anyone know if the upcoming more
advanced ship design rules will allow ships with more than 6 G's of
acceleration?

4.  Were the guns in the T4 book created with the 3G3 rules?  :)

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:03:44 -0800
Subject: Re: To Peter Miller

Allen,

>So, who's this Allen Sock who's appropriated my Red Zone adventure idea and
>published it on your web page? Is he from Argyle? :)

Darn Zhodani, messing with my mind again, have forced me to believe your
name is spelt 'sock', perhaps they are in cohoots with some footwear
clothing manufacturer.  However, with this brought to my attention, I can
make the appropriate changes, and hope the mind control has ended for good :)


_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:06:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities... and Jack of All Trades

From: Declan Feeney <afeeney@tcp.co.uk>
> One of my players has suggested:
>
> Target Number =3D (Skill x2) + Stat
>
> Difficulties =3D Easy        (Auto / 1D)
>               Average     (2D)
>               Difficult   (3D)
>               Formidable  (4D)
>               Staggering  (5D)
>               Impossible  (6D)
>
> Which solves both problems.

But leaves one additional problem:  To wit, how do you define the
spectacular failure?  The any boxcars approach leads to SF much 
too soon.  

Additional question on this is, how doxyou handle "default"/"Jack of
All Trades" usage?  What's been pretty scary is how well my players
have gotten on running a trader using JOT for alomost everything 
using the written rules.

The Stat/2 method results in making Formidible tasks damn near 
impossible for untrained people.  What do you people think?  

For JOT, do you add Skill or Skill*2 ?

Also how do people generally handle the situation where a player wants
to use JOT for a skill that is implemented as a die roll modifier
such as Broker?  What I've been doing is allowing a JOT roll, with
success meaning effective "Broker-1" and failure no effect.  Any
thoughts?

douglas

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:17:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510

Loren "Discretion" Wiseman said,

>Mike Stackpole, Myself, and the other members of the GAMA Media Watch
>COmmittee were engaged in looking for such a case for years. We never
>found one. We found lotsa newspaper clippings, and one guy who
>mistook a _novel_ for a serious case study...

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. And here I was prepared for all sorts
of tales of psychotic gamers...

><material deleted, including a discussion of the college student in
>Michigan>
>
>Dallas Egbert was the student's name. It was the first major "RPGs are
>dangerous" story to hit the media.

THAT's the name - how could I have forgotten? I mean... "Dallas Egbert"?
Sounds like a Thomas Pynchon character.

>> Then, weeks later, the guy's body is found, hundreds of miles from
>> the  school.
>
>Partly true. Egbert turned up in Louisiana, very much alive, (albeit
>under mysterious circumstances...seems he called one of the detectives
>who was searching for him, and turned himself in). Several months later,
>Egbert killed himself. Tragic, but totally unrelated to gaming.

I knew my memory was faulty on that point. Thanks for setting me straight.
Indeed, a sad tale, and not quite germaine to this list.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #514
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 515

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: To Peter Miller
         2. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
         3. Auction Update 4
         4. RE: Religion (Long Off-Topic FINAL Rant) -Reply
         5. RE: Dave's TNE
         6. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         7. CJ Cherryh
         8. How the Albedo RPG does it (was RE: Probabilities)
         9. Year 5 language
        10. Sticky Subjects (Religion)...
        11. Gambling
        12. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        13. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        14. Re: Year 5 language
        15. Re: How the Albedo RPG does it (was RE: Probabilities)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:24:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: To Peter Miller

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:

> So, who's this Allen Sock who's appropriated my Red Zone adventure idea and
> published it on your web page? Is he from Argyle? :)
>                                 Allen SHOCK

ROFLMAO!!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:28:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 06:18:53 -0700
>Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
>
<<<...snippage...>>>
>
>If we're going to do this, let's do it right.
>
>Our base line:  A character with an average characteristic of 7
>		With an average skill level of 2
>
>Given the base, here is my rough guesstimate, in round numbers, of what I
think the 
>success chance for each difficulty level should be:

Well, Kenneth, I've done some calculating and now, besides being hungry, I
have some numbers for you.  First, here is your table with the current T4
numbers (including the boxcar and snake-eye roll modifications) as well as a
number of "fixes" suggested here on the TML.  Some Notes to follow.  These
percents are based on your given baseline, stat=7, skill=2

Diff   -----------Chance to Succeed----------------
Levl    Ken    T4 Std    MethA    MethB    MethC
- ---------------------------------------------------
Easy    95%     Auto      Auto     Auto     Auto
Avg     80%    83.33%    41.67%   58.33%   83.33%
Diff    40%    57.41%    17.59%   28.70%   57.41%
Form    20%    37.50%     9.26%   16.20%   37.50%
Stag    10%    17.13%     2.31%    5.25%   17.13%
Imp      5%     9.72%     1.16%    2.70%    9.72%

   MethA - (stat/2) + skill      (round up)
   MethB - (stat/2) + (skill*2)  (round down)
   MethC - 4 + (stat/2) + skill  (round up) (From Declan Feeney)

Your numbers are very close to the T4 numbers; however, we both know that is
not the point.  Take a look at another table...

This table is based on an attrib=11 and a skill=2.  I think this will show a
bit more.

Diff   Chance to Succeed
Levl    T4 Std   
- -----------------
Easy     Auto    
Avg     97.22%   
Diff    95.37%   
Form    82.41%   
Stag    62.19%   
Imp     43.89%   

The thing to remember about this table is that a character with an average
attribute of 7 would have to have a skill level of 6, a difficult task in
any of the Traveller systems.

I hope these figures help you express your concern.  I too have a bit of a
problem with the skill system, but as yet, I haven't found a good fix for it
yet.


------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:09:01 -0400
Subject: Auction Update 4

The bids as of 08OCT96, 4:00pm EST					
						
						
1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir	$5.00	stormhvn@inreach.com				
						
2.  Double Adventure2:Mission on Mithril $5.00   scrawlsfts@aol.com				
						
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	$3.00	douglas@point.com				
 						
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague	$6.00	douglas@point.com				
 						
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention $6.00	douglas@point.com				
 						
6.  Book 8: Robots	$15.00	mwbrown@usa.net				
 						
7.  Journal of the Travellers'Aid SocietyNo.5  $13.00  sennafan@rust.net			

 						
8.  JTAS No. 6	$6.00	ewatters@queens-belfast.ac.uk				
 						
9.  JTAS No.7 	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
10. JTAS No.7	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
11.  JTAS No.11	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
12.  JTAS No. 12	$5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan 	$5.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani 	$20.00	mark@dk-online.dk				
 						
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	$8.00	sennafan@rust.net				
						
16.  101 Vehicles	$10.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit 	$8.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
18.  Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook	$20.00	goldendj@usa.net				
 					
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders  $9.00   (anonymous1)				
 						
20.  Far Traveller No. 1 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
21.  High Passage No. 2  	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
22.  High Passage No. 3	$12.00	dsmart@flash.net				
 						
23.  High Passage No. 4 	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
24.  High Passage No. 5 	$12.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed. 	$10.00	goldendj@usa.net				
 


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:26:41 -0400
Subject: RE: Religion (Long Off-Topic FINAL Rant) -Reply

Armand Suarez stated:

>Your message should have been sent privately as well.  I'm sorry, but I
>felt  I had to respond to your challenge as you responded to my
>statement publicly  (which I tried very hard to state as diplomatically and
>fairly as I could). 
> Hereafter, I will respond to you privately if you wish to continue this 
>discussion.

The reason I posted publicly was because your statement was posted
publicly. That statement is as follows:

 "Objectively speaking, the existence of such things [spiritual, mystical, or
mythical beings] cannot be verified  scientifically and so I cannot
consider their existence to be fact. Therefore any claim that they exist is
opinion." I objected to your saying that your statement was true
"objectively speaking."

 To me, your statement is a completely subjective statement, and,
believing the exact opposite, I didn't want you to "get away with it" (in a
completely friendly, intellectual manner) in a public forum. I will be
replying to the bulk of your message privately, because:

A) It is a well thought out argument, and one that will take me a while to
counter, and since I subscribe to this list at work, I don't want to take up
too much of my work time with non-work related activities (which is also
why I don't post all that much on this list). I'm probably going to forward
the message to my "home" account and reply from there.

B) This list is really not the place to be discussing such things.

BTW, thanks everybody for your graciousness and patience with all of
us who have participated in this off-topic discussion. If it had happened
anywhere else (usenet, BBS forums, etc), we all would've been flamed
without mercy and beyond control. It's proof that there are some really
great people on this list.

My next post will be Traveller related, honest!  :)

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:26:23 -0400
Subject: RE: Dave's TNE

Boyd Schneider writes: 

>It took me a while to get there, as I was emotionally 
>attached to GDW's version, but I no longer rely on 
>any published material for the background I now use.  

   Back when TNE came out, I decided that I didn't care for the Reformation
Coalition setting.  As the Regency setting was barely mentioned, I decided to
develop my own.  _Children of Earth_, installments of which are appearing in
Traveller Chronicle, was the result.

   While my approach was somewhat more conservative than yours (my setting
takes place within the same era and universe as the rest of TNE), we appear
to agree on the need make the *game* meet *your* needs, not vice versa.

>>T4's commerical viability no longer depends upon keeping 
>>the existing fan base happy with regard to storyline or game 
>>mechanics--it depends on new customers.  We might not 
>>like that fact, but a fact it is.
>
>Very astute comment.  I think that is true with the survivability 
>of almost all products.

   MegaTraveller was clearly aimed at the existing fan base.  The result was
that few new players came on board between 1987 and 1992, and a serious
decline in sales at GDW (which was also caused by other factors, but I
digress).  TNE, which was aimed at least partially at bring in more fans, was
hurt by the after effects of this strategy.  

   T4 will be a success if IG can once again make Traveller a household word
in RPGs.  No offense to Marc Miller, but at this point to a group of 19 year
olds, "Marc Miller's Traveller" could be named "Boyd Schneider's Traveller",
and it would mean the same thing to them.  I do not envy the task that lays
before IG--what they are trying to do will take more of an advertising budget
than GDW ever had.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:52:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Kenneth wrote:
>> I have been keeping up with these posts about the "push to the Marches" by
>> Cleon, and I think this is the best explanation yet.  This makes very good
>> sense.  Thanks for a well reasoned post.
>
>Ethan dogged me and Paul likes what I had to say (thanks for the support,
>Paul!).
>
>It's one strike and one ball, but the diverse opinions is one of the
>reasons the I REALLY LOVE THIS GAME!

Dogged you? I'm just trying to figure out why Cleon would be
so hot for such a tough region of space. Good explanations though. :)

Making up history is much more fun than studying it!

Ethan

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 06:57:33 +1000 (EST)
Subject: CJ Cherryh

Dear Folks -

Since C.J. Cherryh's name has come up a few times on the TML, you might be
interested to know that she has written "Lois and Clark: A Superman Novel",
released in September by D.C. Comics.

Relevant addresses:
        D.C. Comics home page:
                http://www.dccomics.com
        About C. J. Cherryh (very brief, but includes a photo):
                http://www.dccomics.com/lcbook/lccjb.html
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:31:24 -0700
Subject: How the Albedo RPG does it (was RE: Probabilities)

With all of this discussion of probabilities, I thought I might drop my
.02Cr into it.

I got into Traveller (MT, actually) not for role playing, but for source
material.

I've GM'd Albedo Anthropomorphics RPGs for several years now, and I have
to say that I prefer it's task system to Traveller's.  Tasks are
resolved by using the skill level as a _modifier_ to the primary
attribute.
<<quick background.  In AARPG, there are 8 attributes:  Strength,
Stamina, Manual Dex, Coordination, Reason, Intuition, Drive and
Stability.  (the last two being measures of a person's 'will' and thier
'mental/emotional stability')>>

For example, Astrogation is a Reason/Intuition based skill.  You take
the average of those, and then compare them on the 'Skill Chart' against
the character's skill level (which go up to 15).  Basically the chart
take the ability (betweein 1 to 15) and multiplies it by the skill/10
(for a range of .1 to 1.5).

the max skill attribute for the players in this system is a combined
Skill/Attribute score of 23.  

All tasks are resolved using the universal (and well named) Task
Resolution chart.  Just take your skill/attrib and subtract the
difficulty.  If the difference is zero, the roll must be 7+.  I don't
have it in front of me right now, but I recall for every point or two
more or less difficult, the target goes up or down a point, e.g diff of
zero, target is 7, +1 and +2 points in players favor and the target is
6+

I'll post more about this, and try to work up what the probablities are
with this system.

Jeffrey

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:38:25 -0500
Subject: Year 5 language

Well, since the discussion of language has come up here on the list before,
I thought it only fitting that these rules be posted here.  Who knows,
perhaps this is the beginning of Ganglic as we know it.  And so, with
respectful apologies to our European friends (Lord knows America could
easily be subtituted) here is the new official language.

*     *     *     *     *     *
Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC (now officially
the European Union, or EU), the European Parliament has commissioned a
feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in communications between
Government departments.  European officials have often pointed out that
English spelling is unnecessarily difficult.  For example: cough, plough,
here, hear, bow, bough, through and thorough.  What is clearly needed is a
hased program of changes to iron out these anomalies.  The program would be
administered by a committee of top level staff chosen by the participating
nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee might suggest using "s"
instead of the soft "c".  Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would
resieve this news with joy.  The hard "c" could then be replased by "k"
sinse both letters are pronounsed alike.  This would not only klear up
konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters and keyboards
kould be made with one fewer letter, a signifikant savings.

In the sekond year, bekause of growing enthusiasm, it will be announsed that
the troublesome "ph" would henseforth be written "f".  This would make words
like "fotograf" twenty persent shorter in print.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments
would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a
deterent to akurate speling.

We would al agre that the horible mes of silent "e"'s in the languag is
disgrasful.  Therefor, we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as
though nothing had hapend.

By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be
reseptiv to steps sush as replasing "th" by "z".  Perhaps zen ze funktion
of "w" kould be taken on by "v", vitsh is, after al, half a "w".  Finaly,
ze unesesary "o" kuld be dropd from words kontaining "ou".  Similar arguments
vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

Kontinuing zis proses yer aftr yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten
stil.  Aftr tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrion
vud fin it ezi tu understan esh ozer.  Ze drems of ze E.U.  vud finali kum
tru.


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:41:13 -0400
Subject: Sticky Subjects (Religion)...

Stuart L. Dollar writes:

>Jeez guys, now that we've got that whole religion thing 
>out of the way, lets talk about something a little less 
>controversial to the list...
>
>Like Virus infected ships dropping relativistic rocks on 
>feudal technocracies or some such...  :-P

   I don't know, seems like a perfect time to mention that Traveller
Chronicle #11 will feature an in-depth essay on Gabreelism, the faith of the
people who rule Terra in the New Era.  Among the things the essay will allow
you to do is incorporate religious faith (or a total lack of it) as an
attribute of a character.  Extremely low or extremely high levels of Faith
have implications with regard to PC - NPC interaction, decisions characters
will make in particular situations, etc.  It was interesting to write, and
will hopefully be interesting to read and use in game situations as well.

   As for the current religious discussions, a Gabreelist would probably ask
everyone (except our resident Atheist) to come together in fellowship and
emphasize what we as believers in the Divine Being have in common, and
encourage everyone to be more tolerant of the differences people have in
their rituals for worship.

   Speaking of our resident Atheist, belief in a Supreme Being is an act of
faith.  The same can be said for the disbelief in a Supreme Being--for while
there is no conclusive scientific proof that God exists, there is no
conclusive scientific proof God *doesn't* exist either.  Since nobody is
going to prove anybody right or wrong in this discussion, the discussion is
merely a philosophical excercise.  Philosophical excercises are great mental
gymnastics, but like real gymnastics, if someone gets hurt, it's not fun
anymore.

   Can I get an amen?  :-)

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:01:48 -0700
Subject: Gambling

If this is how you want your Traveller gambling 	
			encounters to be...

The room is smokey.  Across from you are 5 other poker players hungry for 
your money.  The game is 5 card stud, and they have been eating up your 
bank since you sat down.  You've got just enough for one more hand, but 
you've got to make it.  You're desperate.  You need the cash.  You've got 
to walk out of here with some money.  

You ante up, and the cards are tossed.  As a player, you roll against 
your character's gambling skill, and your heart sinks when you see that 
you've failed.  The other players have seen your result.  They know that 
you haven't got squat.  

They pick you as an easy target and begin to bet you out of the game.  
Everyting is riding on this one hand--you're not going to get another 
chance.  You decide to stay in.  

Pushing your chips out to cover the pot, everyone rolls the second time, 
but this time the results of the rolls are kept secret.  The last betting 
round is made.  You take a deep breath as you slide the rest of your 
chips across the table, and everyone is suddenly quiet as they realize 
that you just raised to double the bet.  Eyeing you, they all know that 
you have to be bluffing.  One says, "I don't think he pulled a rabbit out 
of his butt.  He's just trying to buy the pot," before he slides his 
chips out to match yours.  The others are inspired with courage, and they 
match as well.  They stay in.  

The pot is huge.  The cards are flipped (the final quality rating is 
revealed), and everyone gasps at your hand.  You rolled a QR 1 the second 
time--Excellent!--greatly improving your hand.

You can't help but smile as you rake the table.  Victory!


		Then this may be the gambling rules set for you.



This is for Brian, Boyd, and the other couple of people who e-mailed 
wanting to see the James Bond gambling system.

The question was, "Does anybody know of other systems that handle 
gambling at any length?"

My answer to that is, "Yeah, I really liked the way it was handled in the 
James Bond game."

As a matter of fact, the whole game was superbly done, with minimal 
glitches, and it really captured the flavor of the movies.

So, for all of those interested, here's the system.  Convert it as you 
will.



	Characteristics in James Bond:
The JB game has characters with 5 abilities:  Strength, Dexterity, 
Willpower, Perception, and Intelligence.  These stats ranged from 1-15.  
Hey, now that's an easy conversion.



	Skills in James Bond
Skills also ranged from 1 to 15.  For conversion, I'd suggest dividing 
the skill number by 3.



	Task rolls in James Bond
Percentage dice are used to determine task success.  The primary chance 
for a character to do something, like win at gambling, is calculated by a 
formula--with each skill having its own formula.  The formulas were 
always either one governing attribute added to the skill (just like in 
T4), or was the average of two attributes added to the skill.  This gave 
you a target number to roll lower than with percentage dice (again, very 
similar to T4).

For instance, in the JB game, gamling primary chance was determined by 
adding the character's gambling skill to his Perception attribute.  Just 
substitute Int for Per, and, again, the conversion is made.

Whoa!  You might say.  Are you telling me that a person with the best 
characteristic, Per 15, and the highest gambling skill level available, 
gambling-15, would only have a 30% chance of succeeding at a task?
	
The answer is yes and no.  This is the character's primary chance, but 
this chance is never used alone.  An ease factor is always used to 
qualify the task.

"OK," you say, "so what's an ease factor?"



	The Ease Factor
Think of the ease factor like the difficulty levels in T4.  The harder 
the task is, the lower an Ease Factor the GM would put on the throw.

The Ease Factors used in JB are .5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.  To 
use them, and qualify the task, simply multiply the EF by the character's 
primary chance.  This gives you the percentage chance for success.

For guidance, and ease factor of 5 was considered to be the normal 
difficulty for a task.  It the task was harder, the GM picked an ease 
factor between .5 and 4--if it was easier, he picked one between 6 and 
10.

Simple, simple.  To aid in calcultion, a table was printed on the 
character sheet.  All players had to do was cross reference.



	The Chance for Success
What was unique about the JB game, and I have never seen this in any 
other game, is that the result of the throw was also qualified.  

Let's think about this.  A character has an average Per of 8 and an 
average gambling skill of 8.  This gives him a primary chance of 16.

On an average gambling throw, EF 5, he has an 80% chance of success, and 
if the throw was extremely easy, his chance is 160%.

What the extremely creative geniuses at Victory Games did was to say, 
"Ok, the character made the throw, but how good was he?  Did he make 
success by a narrow margin, or did he succeed with ease?"

This was determined by comparing the results, if the player made the 
throw, to a Quality Results Table.  

So, looking at our average Joe with an 80% chance of success at an 
average gambling task:

If the player rolled		The Success was considered
- ----------------------------------------------------------
	01-09			Quality level 1:  Excellent
	10-18			Quality level 2:  Very Good
	19-45			Quality level 3:  Good
	46-80			Quality level 4:  Acceptable

How do you use this in play?  Let's say the character was talking to an 
NPC trying to get some information out of him.  The GM has, for easy 
figuring, say, four piece of information that would be beneficial for the 
players to have.  If the PC failed the roll, the player got no 
information.  If he made the roll with acceptable success, the GM would 
give him the least important information the NPC knows.  If the Player 
rolled a good (level 3) success, then the GM would give him 2 pieces of 
info.  If he rolled very good, he'd get all but the most important piece 
of info.  And if the player rolled an Excellent, this was like rolling 
double damage or spectacular success--the PC got the whole enchilada.

If anybody wants a copy of this qualtiy results table, e-mail me at 
dreamer@brokersys.com, and I'll post it.



	So, now that you know how the system works, on to the gambling.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------Several different games (Roulette, Blackjack, Chemin De Fer, Baccarat, 
etc) are detailed, but to save space on this already lengthly post, I'm 
just going to describe how poker was handled.  There are other rules, 
too, if anybody is interested, that concerns cheating, automatic success, 
penalty for not having a skill, etc.  Let me know, and I'll e-mail you 
directly with what you want.



	The Game is 5 card stud.
	(For those of you who don't know the oldest poker game ever, it's 
 	done by dealing 1 card face down and one up to each player, then 
	four cards dealt face up with a betting round on each up card.)  

The story at the top of this post is a reenactment of a JB 5 card stud 
game that really happen during play.  As you read the rules below, go 
back and follow it through the story to see how it is supposed to feel.

Gambling in the JB game handled it like so:  All players throw against 
their gambling skill letting all players know the result--quality rating 
or failure--of the throw.  This would simulate judging your hand against 
the other player's up cards.  You'd know at this point whether you had a 
good, bad, or medium chance of winning.

Then everyone would roll again against their gambling skill, but this 
time, the result would be kept secret (the GM governs this) from the 
others.  This simulates the draw of the cards, the bluff, sizing up your 
opponent, etc.

A character could either improve or hurt his hand with the second throw. 
 The below chart is used to determing the final quality rating for the 
hand.  Whoever has the highest final qualty rating wins the hand.  Cross 
reference Failures and quality ratings.

			First Dice Result
Second Dice Result	F	4	3	2	1
- ---------------------------------------------------------
	F		F	F	4	3	2
	4		F	4	3	2	2
	3		4	3	3	2	1
	2		4	3	2	2	1
	1		3	2	1	1	1+

I just love this system.  It puts your players right in the middle of the 
action.  They are there, sitting across a smokey table, gambling with 
money they don't have, trying to beat Mr. Big.

What could the final quality rating mean?
	QR 1+ is a royal flush
	QR 1 is a straight flush
	QR 2 is either a full house or 4 of a kind
	QR 3 is either a straight or a flush
	QR 4 is either a pair, two pair, or 3 of a kind
	QR F is a high card only--a runt

If anybody has any other questions, I'd be glad to help.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:25:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Paul Walker wrote:

> Well, Kenneth, I've done some calculating and now, besides being hungry, I
> have some numbers for you.  

> Your numbers are very close to the T4 numbers; however, we both know that is
> not the point.  Take a look at another table...
> 
> This table is based on an attrib=11 and a skill=2.  I think this will show a
> bit more.
> 
> Diff   Chance to Succeed
> Levl    T4 Std
> -----------------
> Easy     Auto
> Avg     97.22%
> Diff    95.37%
> Form    82.41%
> Stag    62.19%
> Imp     43.89%
> 
> The thing to remember about this table is that a character with an average
> attribute of 7 would have to have a skill level of 6, a difficult task in
> any of the Traveller systems.
> 
> I hope these figures help you express your concern.  I too have a bit of a
> problem with the skill system, but as yet, I haven't found a good fix for it
> yet.



Paul, thanks for the work.  I'm going to print it out and use it to come 
up with a good system.  This is not he first time that I've read one of 
your posts and been in total agreement.  It is good to know that there 
are others out there who play Traveller the way I do.  Your tables saved 
me a lot of work.

Before we wade into fixing this thing, what we need to do is define the 
problem.  What is your opinion?  I say its the attributes being so 
powerful.  I know the curves made with all the D6 make it hard, but I'm 
not willing to give them up with regard to Traveller.  There has 
got--scratch that--there is a way to make it work for us.  I'm not 
completely happy with any of the fixes posited yet either.

Keep up the good work,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:38:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Ethan Henry wrote:

> 
> Dogged you? I'm just trying to figure out why Cleon would be
> so hot for such a tough region of space. Good explanations though. :)
> 
> Making up history is much more fun than studying it!
> 
> Ethan

I didn't mean that in a bad way, Ethan.  It just sounded like you didn't 
buy what I had to say.  I respect your opinion, and everyone else's, on 
TML.  

I think that one of Traveller's strengths is that it appeals to 
such a diverse group of people.  Besides, if everyone agreed, there 
wouldn't be a TML.

Keep the Flame!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:56:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Year 5 language

Paul Walker wrote:

> 
> Kontinuing zis proses yer aftr yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten
> stil.  Aftr tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrion
> vud fin it ezi tu understan esh ozer.  Ze drems of ze E.U.  vud finali kum
> tru.

Paul, stop it!  You are killing me!
lol lol lol lol lol lol roflol!

And, to think I spent all of those years studying how to do it the right 
way...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 19:01:24 -0700
Subject: Re: How the Albedo RPG does it (was RE: Probabilities)

Jeff Cornish wrote:

> 
> I'll post more about this, and try to work up what the probablities are
> with this system.
> 
> Jeffrey

Please do, Jeff, I'd love to see it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #515
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 8 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 516

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. More Probabilities
         2. Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)
         3. Re: Spaceships and Psionics
         4. Re: Playing to win
         5. whatever-space (Was: FFS questions)
         6. Re: Errata and missing tables
         7. Character career -- Journalist
         8. Timeline For the Imperium: Web site
         9. Re: RED ZONE: An adventure - Long Reply
        10. Re: Silly adventure idea
        11. Re: Core Sector/Subsector
        12. Female PC's
        13. Re: Sticky Subjects (Religion)...
        14. Digest 500?
        15. Re: Spaceships and Psionics
        16. Multi-Letter Acronyms (Was Re: To Peter Miller)
        17. Task Probabilities: Figuring in the Spec. Fail.
        18. Re: Timeline For the Imperium: Web site
        19. Re: Multi-Letter Acronyms (Was Re: To Peter Miller)
        20. Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:09:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More Probabilities

Here's some more food for thought...probabilities based on T4's current 
system, in a format similar to the one Eris suggested for his survey.

I worked on this at the office, so I may have made some goofs (not enough 
time for in-depth analysis in the time I had left after lunch).  Also, I 
didn't factor in the 2 sixes = failure rule, which shows up prominently 
when looking at the figures in the upper right-hand corner of the table 
in relation to the others.  Still, it gives us something to work with.


                6       9        12       15       18     21
Average      41.67%   83.33%   97.00%   97.00%   97.00%   97.00%
Difficult    17.59%   57.40%   90.71%   97.00%   97.00%   97.00%
Formidable    9.26%   37.50%   74.10%   95.37%   96.00%   96.00%
Staggering    2.31%   17.13%   50.00%   82.87%   97.69%   96.00%
Impossible    1.16%    9.72%   33.56%   66.44%   90.28%   98.84%


Note:  I left out the Easy task level, since it would be Auto for anyone 
with even one level of skill.

Observation:  At Kenneth's target number of 9, we see that the distribution 
isn't too bad (not bad at all, to me).  Later on, though, it breaks down 
considerably.  If you have a characteristic of F as your basis, and you 
have even one level of skill, you'll be doing great no matter how 
difficult the task.  

Comment:  I don't have a problem with the extreme high end.  We're 
talking about people with attributes of F and skills of 6 there.  The low 
end looks good, too.  So does the middle.  When you get into the 15-18 
range, though, it may be a problem.

In his or her specialty, a character might have something like a 
characteristic of 9 and a skill of 3, giving us a target of 12.  For this 
type of character, I would rather see probabilities like those under a 
target of 9.  

Perhaps if we could shift the whole table over by 3 points, it would make 
more sense.

Anyway....on with the discussion!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 19:42:35 -0700
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)

Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
> 
> > > Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?
> > >
> > > hehehee                         ---Boyd
> >
> > The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?
> >
> 
> African or European?
> 
> Suz
> Suz Dollar
> suzd@goodnet.com

Hmmm...I don't know....AUUUGHH

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 17:54:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Spaceships and Psionics

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV) said:

>I've got a couple of questions for whomever:

>4.  Were the guns in the T4 book created with the 3G3 rules?  :)

According to Greg Porter they were, and I've been reverse-engineering them
for fun while I wait for the new edition of 3G3.  I've also been converting
some of the weapons in More Guns! to T4.  These are *very* loose conversions
based on what Mr. Porter has told me, but they should be servicable until
the full rules come out.

I'll probably post the conversions along with my own designs on my web page.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:05:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Playing to win

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Winning is a personal thing.  I've been up against people I *know* I can't
> beat, but I can still *win*..if I redefine winning.  <g> Sometimes winning
> is just giving your opponent hell, and surviving to do it another day.

Yep. I've found the #1 rule in any competition whether it's chess,
tennis, or starship combat is: Never Do What Your Opponent Expects
You To Do.

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: whatever-space (Was: FFS questions)

Thus spake Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>:

>         Traveller jumpdrive is oversimplified black-box system, and
>         there is only vague descriptions of the jump space phenomenon.

There actually has been a fair bit of material published concerning 
jumpspace theory (speculative, though it is) and jumpspace phenomenae.  
You just haven't read it, probably.  DGP's "Starship Operator's Handbook" 
(published for MegaTraveller) was, in my opinion, the best resource on this.
 
>         Using FFS, one could assume that jumpspace and subspace are
>         the same thing, and Traveller ships need a also gate drive to
>         enter and exit the subspace. A normal "jump" would thus mean
>         using the ship's build-in gate drive to forma a gate around
>         the ship (jump flash), manoeuvering though subspace using
>         subspace drives, and using the gate drive to enter the normal
>         space (jump flash). As Traveller ships do not have subspace
>         sensors, the whole operation would have to be pre-plotted and
>         carefully timed.

One could make that assumption if they hadn't read FF&S.  In that text, it 
is clearly stated that j-space and subspace are NOT the same thing, 
insofar as the descriptions given for each vary widely.  They are not 
even the same 'technology.'  If they were, why would jump drives be the 
'official' FTL drives in the Imperium setting, while subspace technology 
is an 'alternate' that does not apply to the mainstream Traveller 
setting, but was proposed as something that could be used by referees and 
players desiring a different setting?

It's probably a good thing that subspace technology isn't part of the 
'standard' setting, too.  A large part of Charted Space's history and 
background is shaped by the limited speed of communication over 
interstellar distances (just look at how astrographic separation saved 
the Domain of Deneb -- twice).  The parsecs-per-day travel times afforded 
by the alternate subspace technology for both starships and 
communications would totally disfigure the canonical background, such as 
it is.
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:13:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Errata and missing tables

s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote the the TML:
> 
>     Oh BTW is there an Erata sheet for the T4 Book that I can find/get?

Yes. Check out the Imperium Games website at
http://www.imperiumgames.com

------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 19:07:44 EDT
Subject: Character career -- Journalist

As I promised late last week, here is the text version of the Journalist
career.  You can get a copy of it in HTML table format which looks quite
a bit like the T4 format at 

http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/careers/Reporter.html

A few notes here:

1. James Gariss made a couple of suggestions.  One was to replace Medical
with First Aid in the Educational table.  After a little bit of thought,
I did that.  He also suggested I remove the +/- on Social Standing in the
Social table.  After a little thought, I decide to keep it.  My
reasoning: the journalist has an equal chance of boosting or hurting his
reputation with a story, which could be reflected by his Social Standing.
 Thanks for the suggestions, James.
2.  I boosted the Continuance role from 6- to 8-;  gotta give the poor
guy a more reasonable chance of getting back in.

Below is the latest version of the Journalist.  I haven't updated it on
the site yet, but the two notes above should cover the changes I would
make there.

I hope you find it useful.

Scott Galliand

- ----------

Marc Miller's Traveller - Journalist Career Description

	Journalists are the people who inform the masses on the events of
the day.  Be it the son of the subsector duke discovered dead in his
aide's bed, the start of an important diplomatic mission, or the release
of the latest holovid by your favorite entertainer, there is some
journalist somewhere that somehow digs up the story and reports it to the
rest of the galaxy.
	This has given the journalist sort of a mixed reputation.  One
time he might be at the top of his profession for discovering the scandal
of the century, the next he might be seen as the sleeziest human in
existence for reporting on how a person had sex with an alien.  Because
of this, many times the journalist needs to be on his toes for he may or
may not have made an enemy with a story.
	Journalists can be found almost anywhere, from the slow one-page
weekly on a technologically backward world to the editor of the major new
service in the galaxy.  All have one thing in common: find the story and
report on it, no matter what (or sometimes who) it costs.

ROUTINE TASKS: Research, writing, interviewing, investigating, sticking
his nose where it doesn't belong.

ENLISTMENT:8-, +1 if Int 8+, +2 if Educ 9+
INJURY:7-, +2 if Int 8+
COMMISSION:6-, +1 if Educ 9+
PROMOTION:6-, +1 if Int 9+
CONTINUANCE:8-

Skill tables:

1. PHYSICAL      

1.+1 Dex
2.+1 End
3.Brawling
4.Blade Combat (Cascade)
5.Gun Combat (Cascade)
6.Vacc Suit

2. MENTAL

1. +1 Int
2. +1 Educ
3. Computer
4. Clandestine (Cluster)
5. Performance (Cluster)
6. Jack of all Trades

3. EDUCATIONAL

1. Academic (Cluster)
2. Technical (Cluster)
3. Computer
4. Performance (Cluster)
5. Clandestine (Cluster)
6. First Aid

4. SOCIAL

1. -1 Soc
2. Carousing
3. Administration
4. Streetwise
5. Bribery
6. +1 Soc

5. CAREER
1. Interrogation
2. Performance (Cluster)
3. Computer
4. Investigation
5. Clandestine (Cluster)
6. Technical (Cluster)

6. BACKGROUND

1. Clandestine (Cluster)
2. Performance (Cluster)
3. Interrogation
4. Intrusion
5. Investigation
6. Technical (Cluster)

RANK AND SERVICE SKILLS
All - 	Computer-1
	Investigation-1

O4+ - Administration-1

SKILL ELIGIBILITY
- - 1 skill per year
- - 1 skill per term for Commission
- - 1 skill per term for Promotion

TABLE OF RANKS

Non-Commisioned                    
E1-E2: Copy Boy
E3-E4: Archive Researcher
E4-E6: Column Stripper
E7-E8: Photographer's Assistant
E9: Cub Reporter

Commissioned

O1: Reporter
O2: Senior Reporter
O3: Columnist
O4: Asst. Editor
O5: Editor
O6: Senior Editor
O7: Managing Editor
O8: Publisher

MUSTERING OUT TABLES
Cash Table (in Credits):
Die Roll
1. 1000
2. 5000
3. 10000
4. 20000
5. 30000
6. 50000
7. 50000

Max 3 rolls. +1 if Gambling-1+

Benefits Table:
Die Roll

1. Low Passage
2. +1 Int
3. +2 Educ
4. Middle Passage
5. Laptop Computer
6. High Passage
7. Award*

+1 if O5+

*An award is a recognition of the journalist's exemplary work in the
field of jounalism.  This award can have some monetary or other prize
associated with it.  For example, the Traveller's Digest Award, issued by
the Traveller's Aid Society, grants a journalist a three year membership
in the Traveller's Aid Society, with which he is to travel throughout the
whole of the Imperium, submitting a story on his experiences once a month
to the Travellers' Digest.  The award should be up to the gamemaster, or
the gamemaster could allow the presentation of the Travellers' Digest
award.

Note: The Travellers' Digest Award is an entity used in Digest Group
Publishing's MegaTraveller Digest and Traveller Digest and is NOT the
creation of the author.  Nor should it be construed as such.

.1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. All
rights reserved.

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 09 Oct 96 11:23:55 +1000
Subject: Timeline For the Imperium: Web site

     I have found a nice Web site that incorporates dates from various 
     Traveller publications into a timeline: 
     
     www.thehub.com.au/~mickb/timeline
     
     The page is still under construction and the owner (who is *not me*, 
     despite the similarity in name!) is seeking feedback. Take a look & 
     give some comments! 

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:20:30 -0700
Subject: Re: RED ZONE: An adventure - Long Reply

Chris Lloyd wrote:
> 
> David Joseph Smart writes:
> > [...] android [..] had *all* psi abilities [...]
> 
> Virus is going to want this so bad it hurts.
> 
> I can see a major campaign device coming on here, particularly once
> the Virus realises it needs a human to trigger any response
> what-so-ever in the "demon"...
> 
>                         Chris.

AUUGGHH. I'm heading for the Great Rift.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:22:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Silly adventure idea

Darryl Adams wrote:
> 
> Re : Antimatter and Niven.
> your attention to a story from the manga "2001 Nights" called Lucifer,
> where the Catholc Church funds a mission to a newly discovered 10th
> planet, filled with antimatter. It is one of the most powerfull
> stories I have ever seen in any media.

Sounds like one of the most powerful explosions, too.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:37:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Core Sector/Subsector

Declan Feeney wrote:
> 
> Anyone got any ideas how I can reconsile the differences between the T4
> Core subsector map, and the Core Sector map I've been using with my
> group for the last year ?

Yep. Toss the T4 map and keep using your own. Canon is great as long as
it adds to an enjoyable campaign. The whole point behind Traveller or
any other game whether it's an RPG, boardgame, cards, or whatever is to 
be a vehicle for social gathering and fun. You and your players are the
owners of your campaign. If it's easier and more enjoyable for you all
to go with what you've personally developed then keep it. If you all
find keeping up with canon more fun, by all means go for it.

I *usually* go with canon simply because it's less work for me and it
allows some limited solo playing.

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 21:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Female PC's

Hi.

SCRAWLSFTS said:

>From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
>Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:42:11 -0400
>Subject: RE: Female Gamers

[...]
>Back then I had only one other experience with GMs, and that was with a
>fellow who thought that it was standard procedure -- nay, a requisite -- that
>all female PCs be raped at least once per game.  Needless to say, we never
>invited him to repeat his "guest DM" role again.  And it made me shy away
>from expanding into other gaming groups for many years.  (Not that I was
>traumatized -- I just didn't feel like exposing myself to the stupidity.)

Weird. I had an almost identical experience the one time I thought I'd
try to play a woman character. In the campaign I was in, my character
didn't have a day go by without some evil NPC attempt to rape her. What
compounded my problem was that she was the first character in this
campaign that I had designed not to be a fighting machine. That'll teach
me to try to expand my role playing repertoire! I haven't tried to play a
female character since. (Aliens yes, women no. 8^)

("Hey man, if you didn't want me to play a woman, you could have just
asked me not to!")

My next character was a serial killer who preyed on rapists.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:49:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Sticky Subjects (Religion)...

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> Jeez guys, now that we've got that whole religion thing out of the
> way, lets talk about something a little less controversial to the
> list...
> 
> Like Virus infected ships dropping relativistic rocks on feudal
> technocracies or some such...  :-P

Well, I would like to state categorically that I am too healthy to
have a Virus, none of my relatives are rocks, and if technocracies
want to feud, that's their business.

David Joseph Smart
"And who art thou to command us, Stranger? Dost thou stand with
 Darkness or Light?"
"Good?...Bad?...(shrug)...I'm the guy with the gun."

------------------------------

From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 22:25:17 -0400
Subject: Digest 500?

Greetings All:

Anybody have a copy of Digest 500 they can forward to me? I've tried to 
"get" the file, only to be told that the list is private and I'm not a 
member...funny, I seem to receive the list and can contribute, thought 
that made me a member...Also, I've tried using Netscape to get to the 
archives, I can get as far as ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/TML, 
but there don't seem to be any files there!

Sigh, ain't technology wonderful?

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 21:25:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Spaceships and Psionics

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> 
> I've got a couple of questions for whomever:
> 
> 1.  Can a starting player choose the Psionicist career?  There is a
> mention of the Cr100000 cost of training in the Psionics chapter.  Do
> we assume that this is waived for starting players?  Do they have to
> have Psi of 9+.  Under Enlistment, it says See 'The Examination' but
> that isn't very helpful.

I'd say "yes". One way is to allow a PC to find an Institute and pay the
testing fee at the beginning or end (your choice) of any term, assuming
they have the cash (maybe allow them to roll a mustering out benefit at
the end of each term but no more than 3 cash rolls total). If the player
thinks the character's Psi Strength makes it worth the effort, allow the
switch.

You could also allow them to attempt for a scholarship if their Psi
Strength again would make it worthwhile.
 
> 2.  Also under Psionics, what's the difference between Psi Level and
> +1 Psi?  I'm guessing that +1 Psi adds to your Psionic ability and,
> therefore, Psi Level adds to your level in a discipline?  I guess this
> makes sense.

You are correct on both. Joe Walsh runs the +1 Psi (according to his
reply to my previous post on this very same subject) as increasing a
PC's Psi Strength up to a max of 12, given the T4 statement that
"Ratings
of 13 or more cannot be attained naturally once a character has passed
beyond age 18."  (Jump in here, Joe, if I'm getting you wrong)

I, being a power-hungry Zho sympathizer, interpreted the previous T4
statement as meaning that training can increase the "natural" roll up
to 15. After all, a characteristic is a characteristic, right?

Keep in mind that an all-powerful PC gets boring very quickly for both
you and the other players. Having run a super-Psi PC for a number of
years, I admit to being in agreement with Joe. IMO, if not run
carefully, a strong Psionicist can easily ruin a campaign.
 
> 3.  Regarding spaceships, it looks like we'll be limited to 6 G's of
> acceleration.  Is this true?  Does anyone know if the upcoming more
> advanced ship design rules will allow ships with more than 6 G's of
> acceleration?

Geez, I hope not. This limitation is one of the few things in 
Traveller (any version except TNE) that has really irritated me.
 
> 4.  Were the guns in the T4 book created with the 3G3 rules?  :)

Darned if I know. Anybody?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 21:29:36 -0700
Subject: Multi-Letter Acronyms (Was Re: To Peter Miller)

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> > So, who's this Allen Sock who's appropriated my Red Zone adventure idea and
> > published it on your web page? Is he from Argyle? :)
> >                                 Allen SHOCK
> 
> ROFLMAO!!
> 
> -Joe

Awright. I'll admit to being an unwashed, ignorant savage...what the
heck if "ROFLMAO"? (how embarassing)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:51:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Task Probabilities: Figuring in the Spec. Fail.

I just finished running a program that figured out the probabilities of 
success for the various target numbers, given a task rating of Impossible 
(4D6).  

The result was interesting.  Rolls of 4 through 13, of course, were 
unaffected (you can't roll two sixes on 4D and get those totals).  
However, from 14 through 24, the results were affected...sometimes very much.

For instance, normally a roll of 14 has a chance of 11.2654%, but now it 
becomes 10.802%.  A roll of 18 normally has a 6.17% chance, but it drops 
to 3.85%.  Here's a table of the approximate changes (rounding being the 
reason these are approximate):

14  -.4%
15  -1%
16  -1.4%
17  -1.9%
18  -2.3%
19  -2.2%
20  -1.7%
21  -1%
22  -0.77%
23  -0.31%
24  -0.08%

Of course, the numbers of 22, 23, and 24 become automatic failures, as 
they are impossible to roll on 4D without getting at least 2 sixes.

Taking this back to the X- task roll system, you can see that the 
additive nature of the task throw probabilities vis a vis the above 
probabilities results in some degree of change.  At the 21- level, the 
chance for success at an Impossible task changes from 98.88% to 86.28.  
At the 18- level, it changes from 90.28% to 83.28%.  And, if we look at 
a throw of 15-, it changes from 66.44% to 65.04%.

Clearly, this affects the higher-skilled/attributed characters more than 
other.  It is equally clear that the effects of the Spectacular Failure 
are much less pronounced at lower difficulty levels (3.5D6, 3D6, etc.).

However, I think it is interesting food for thought.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 21:46:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Timeline For the Imperium: Web site

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
> 
>      I have found a nice Web site that incorporates dates from various
>      Traveller publications into a timeline:
> 
>      www.thehub.com.au/~mickb/timeline
> 
>      The page is still under construction and the owner (who is *not me*,
>      despite the similarity in name!) is seeking feedback. Take a look &
>      give some comments!

You sure about the URL? I keep running up against the "URL Not Found"
error message.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:53:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Multi-Letter Acronyms (Was Re: To Peter Miller)

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> Awright. I'll admit to being an unwashed, ignorant savage...what the
> heck if "ROFLMAO"? (how embarassing)

No need to be embarassed. :)  It means, "Rolling on (the) floor, laughing my 
asterisk off," or something like that. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Oct 1996 22:47:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

>>... incorporated
>>elements of traditional Chinese beliefs into his orthodox Anglicanism.  A
>>bit odd, but definately an accepting place.
>
>Cool!  I gues this isn't the place to talk about this stuff.  <g> I just
>wanted you to be aware that not every Christian that belongs to the Baptist
>demonination is as stiff-necked as the ones you've met.

Actually, I've been trying to cobble together a future history of
Christianity, complete with schisms, revivals, mergers (like A.C. Clarke's
"Chrislam") and so forth.  The more I learn about church history, the more
'real' my creations seem.  Mind you, I'm concerned more with broad
theological movements and social implications than individuals.  Eventually
I'll post them here.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #516
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 517

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #515
         2. Cleon and the Marches
         3. Re: Skillls and Doing the Impossible
         4. "Impossible" Probabilities: The List
         5. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
         6. Re: Sticky Subjects (Religion)...
         7. Re: Timeline For the Imperium: Web site
         8. Re: Year 5 language
         9. Re: More Probabilities
        10. Re: Skillls and Doing the Impossible
        11. Spectacular Failure
        12. Re: Playing to win
        13. Probabilities
        14. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        15. Re: NIKITA
        16. Re: Oh no, not DIE HARD IX ?!
        17. RE: Dave's TNE
        18. RE: Cleon and the Marches
        19. RE: T4 Quality Control
        20. Hop, Skip, and Jump
        21. Generating spacestations
        22. To:  Declan Feeney

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:07:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #515

>On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:
>
>> So, who's this Allen Sock who's appropriated my Red Zone adventure idea and
>> published it on your web page? Is he from Argyle? :)
>>                                 Allen SHOCK
>
>ROFLMAO!!

Uh...what does that mean?
                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 09 Oct 96 13:03:05 +1000
Subject: Cleon and the Marches

     Why did Cleon push out to the Spinward Marches so quickly? Take a selective
look at the timeline: 
     
     -2800 First Zhodani contact with Vargr.      
     -2000 First Zhodani contact with Vilani traders. 
     -1776 Collapse of the Rule of Man. The Long Night begins. 
     -1104 Aslan first cross the Great Rift. 
     -1000 Zhodani Consulate reaches its present [1110] size. 
     -914  Darrians' TL16 culture obliterated by the *Maghiz*
     -650  Sylean Federation established
     -30   Cleon's campaign begins [Cleon is 27]
     0     Third Imperium established
     50    First Zhodani contact with Imperial traders [Foreven sector?]
     
     IFrom this timeline, I draw a few conclusions: 
     1. As of Year Zero, the Zhodani have had some contact with the Vargr 
     for 3000 years, with the Vilani for 2000 years and the Aslan for (?500 
     years?). 
     2. Vargr/Zhodani contact probably continued through the Long Night. 
     3. The Vargr were raiding the Vilani throughout the Long Night. [Therefore 
     intermittent news /rumours of the Zhodani might still reach the Vilani via 
     Vargr contact]
     4. The Zhodani Consulate reached the edge of the Spinward Marches 1000 
     years ago and almost definitely contacted the pre-Maghiz Darrians.  
         
     The Vilani were very quick to join the Third Imperium, although it meant 
     being a 'junior partner', with status nowhere near that of the *Ziru 
     Sirka*. 
     The Vilani are a highly conservative race, and around Year Zero they      
     have spent over 1000 years in a state of emergency: fighting Vargr corsairs
     (some armed with alarmingly high-tech weaponry, possibly of Zhodani 
     origin); the perfidious Zhodani known to be lurking *somewhere* behind the 
     Great Rift; and the land-ravenous and warlike Aslan rumoured to have 
     crossed the Rift as well. 

     In these circumstances, the Vilani may have been in secret 
     negotiations with Cleon for some time. They agreed to 
     join the Imperium immediately, if Cleon could secure their 
     core-spinward frontiers against the possibility of Vargr, Zhodani, and 
     even Aslan, encroachment. Later developments that support this: the 
     rapid push into what became the Domain of Deneb, despite the massive 
     military effort required to secure and patrol Corridor against Vargr 
     incursion; and the extremely rapid colonisation of the Marches. 
     
     The Vilani may have also used the 'carrot' of super-technologies 
     present in the Marches, in the form of numerous Ancient sites and 
     Darrian worlds. 
     
     Comments? Reactions? *Any* response to any of my posts? 
     I'm starting to feel like a late-night radio DJ here. Surely this list 
     can't be entirely made up of lurkers, statisticians and religious 
     fundamentalists. :]
     Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut 
     up for good? 

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:36:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Skillls and Doing the Impossible

I've tried out the T4 Task system and found it honestly doesn't work well
at all.  The simplest answer for me was to use the old MT Task System.  it
works well, and I never had any problems with it.  The nice thing is that
it is possible to convert any T4 rolls to the MT system with minimal
effort. 

Staggering Tasks don't exist in the MT system, but it's easy enough to 
define them as having difficulty level of 17+.

For those who don't have MT the system is amazingly simple:

Stat/5 (round down) + Skill + 2D6 vs a difficulty number:
1-4   =  0
5-9   =  1
10-14 =  2
15+   =  3

Skill difficulty levels:  

Easy        3+

Routine     7+

Difficult   11+

Formidable  15+

Impossible  19+

The system allows you to add in all sorts of complexities if you like, 
but this basic system alone works for 90% of rolls.

It's also easy to write down the die roll you will need for any 
difficulty of task for a given skill.

I am quite disappointed in the T4 system, because like many modern systems
(the Storyteller System by White Wolf being the most obvious) it is simple
to use, but numerically it simply doesn't work well at all.  I'm rather
tired of the current victory of style over substance in game mechanics. 

I'm just hoping that Starships works out better.


- -John jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:41:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: "Impossible" Probabilities: The List

Here's a list of the probabilities of success for the various target 
numbers, given an Impossible task, and taking into account the 
two-sixes=failure rule:

  Impossible Tasks
Target    Probability
   4-          .077
   5-          .386
   6-         1.157
   7-         2.701
   8-         5.401
   9-         9.722
  10-        15.895
  11-        23.920
  12-        33.565
  13-        44.367
  14-        55.170
  15-        65.046
  16-        73.302
  17-        79.475
  18-        83.333
  19-        85.494
  20-        86.497
  21-        86.806
  22-        86.806
  23-        86.806
  24-        86.806



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:41:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:25:56 -0700
>Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
>
>Paul, thanks for the work.  I'm going to print it out and use it to come 
>up with a good system.

Thanks.  I'm glad you can use it.  I have a statistical chart of all the
possible die rolls for 1D6 to 4D6 (including 1.5, 2.5, & 3.5) as well as a
chart listing the T4 percent based on # of die and to hit number.  I'll try
to get it on my web page (or at least in eMail to you) in the next few days.

>This is not he first time that I've read one of 
>your posts and been in total agreement.  It is good to know that there 
>are others out there who play Traveller the way I do.  Your tables saved 
>me a lot of work.

Again, glad you can use my stuff.  Hee hee, it's also nice that at least one
person agrees with some of the stuff I say. :)

>Before we wade into fixing this thing, what we need to do is define the 
>problem.  What is your opinion?  I say its the attributes being so 
>powerful.  I know the curves made with all the D6 make it hard, but I'm 
>not willing to give them up with regard to Traveller.  There has 
>got--scratch that--there is a way to make it work for us.  I'm not 
>completely happy with any of the fixes posited yet either.

Well, IMHO, you have stated the problem VERY accurately.  We talked about
this a while back (when T4 was just out) and that is when I suggested using
1/2stat and 2skill.  It is ok, but not great.  The best I have seen yet is
the 4 + (1/2stat) + skill.  The main problem I have with this is that I
really like the ability to use different stats based on the task at hand,
and the math is a bit time consuming.  While I haven't done an in depth
study of this method like I did with mine, I have a suspicion that it would
work better.

Not being a mathematician myself, just a guy who knows how to do a bit of
stats stuff, I don't really know of a good fix.  I am open to suggestions,
and I will also be thinking of other ideas.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:17:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Sticky Subjects (Religion)...

HDHale@aol.com wrote:
>    As for the current religious discussions, a Gabreelist would probably ask
> everyone (except our resident Atheist) to come together in fellowship and
> emphasize what we as believers in the Divine Being have in common, and
> encourage everyone to be more tolerant of the differences people have in
> their rituals for worship.
>    Speaking of our resident Atheist

Minor correction, AtheistS
>    Can I get an amen?  :-)

Hell, no!

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:20:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Timeline For the Imperium: Web site

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
> 
>      I have found a nice Web site that incorporates dates from various
>      Traveller publications into a timeline:
> 
>      www.thehub.com.au/~mickb/timeline
> 
>      The page is still under construction and the owner (who is *not me*,
>      despite the similarity in name!) is seeking feedback. Take a look &
>      give some comments!

went there, got this:

File Not found

The requested URL /~mickb/timeline was not found on this server.

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:24:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Year 5 language

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Paul, stop it!  You are killing me!
> lol lol lol lol lol lol roflol!
> And, to think I spent all of those years studying how to do it the right
> way...

Aktuali, that shud be
Pawl, stop it yu ar kiling me
And to thingk I spent awl thoz yeerz studeeing how to do it rite

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 00:11:03 -0700
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

Joe Walsh wrote:
  Still, it gives us something to work with.
> 
>                 6       9        12       15       18     21
> Average      41.67%   83.33%   97.00%   97.00%   97.00%   97.00%
> Difficult    17.59%   57.40%   90.71%   97.00%   97.00%   97.00%
> Formidable    9.26%   37.50%   74.10%   95.37%   96.00%   96.00%
> Staggering    2.31%   17.13%   50.00%   82.87%   97.69%   96.00%
> Impossible    1.16%    9.72%   33.56%   66.44%   90.28%   98.84%
> 
> Note:  I left out the Easy task level, since it would be Auto for anyone
> with even one level of skill.
> 
> Observation:  At Kenneth's target number of 9, we see that the distribution
> isn't too bad (not bad at all, to me).  Later on, though, it breaks down
> considerably.  If you have a characteristic of F as your basis, and you
> have even one level of skill, you'll be doing great no matter how
> difficult the task.
> 
> 
> In his or her specialty, a character might have something like a
> characteristic of 9 and a skill of 3, giving us a target of 12.  For this
> type of character, I would rather see probabilities like those under a
> target of 9.

For a minuite there, I thought we were in disagreement.


It's always a pleasure discussing things with you, Joe.

Kenneth.


P.S.  So, what is your beef with Microsoft, anyway?

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:39:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Skillls and Doing the Impossible

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
> I've tried out the T4 Task system and found it honestly doesn't work well
> at all.  The simplest answer for me was to use the old MT Task System.  it
> works well, and I never had any problems with it.  The nice thing is that
> it is possible to convert any T4 rolls to the MT system with minimal
> effort.
Just make MT impossible staggering and make impossible 23+ (oh yeah, remove the 
max DM of +8 from MT)
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
It is what I would use

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 96 23:34:31 -0500
Subject: Spectacular Failure

On 10/08/96 at 09:10 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>By the way, is anyone taking into account the fact that, under T4, a  roll
>that results in *two* dice showing the maximum possible (6 in the   case
>of D6's, 3 in the case of D3's) is /always/ a failure, even if  the total
>of the roll was less than or equal to the target number  (i.e., a 2.5D
>roll of 6,1 (D6) and 3 (D3), for a total of 10, with a  target number of
>11-, is a failure)?  This does affect the probability of success for
>Impossible tasks...

Is that right?  I didn't think the D3's counted in figuring
spectacular failure, just the D6's.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 00:45:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Playing to win

David Joseph Smart wrote:

> 
> Yep. I've found the #1 rule in any competition whether it's chess,
> tennis, or starship combat is: Never Do What Your Opponent Expects
> You To Do.

I agree.  Take the offense.  Make them react to you.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 96 00:23:41 -0500
Subject: Probabilities

Here's my idea of the chances of success...

                                       Highly
            Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert
             (6)     (9)       (12)     (15)    (18)
- -----------+------------------------------------------             Easy      
|  87     100       100      100     100
Average    |  66      80        90       95     100
Difficult  |  33      60        75       80      85
Formidable |  16      40        60       65      70
Staggering |   0      20        30       25      30
Impossible |   0       0        10       15      20



Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 02:16:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Paul Walker wrote:

> 
> Well, IMHO, you have stated the problem VERY accurately.  

OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say 
that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?


> The main problem I have with this is that I
> really like the ability to use different stats based on the task at hand,
> and the math is a bit time consuming.  

Again, total agreement.  I also really like the idea of characterisics 
being important to achieving success at a task throw--I just don't like 
them being ALL IMPORTANT.



Say, Paul, I just noticed in your sig...what can you tell me about your 
PBeMail game?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:37:56 +1300
Subject: Re: NIKITA

>      the film (I nearly walked out after the first scene), but I class it
>      in my top 5 favourite films now.  The soundtrack makes good back
>      background music for gaming sessions too :-).
> 
>      I can't wait for Luc Besson's sci-fi flick to come out.
> 

Extraordinary movie, I know what you mean. Someone on the list did post 
the actual US name of the American re-make but I haven't been able to 
find it. What was the name of the French actress? 

A local cinema recently played a double feature with Nikita and a movie 
called Diva. I had seen both before on video so I didn't bother to go 
because Diva absolutely suxs and is nowhere near the same quality of 
Nikita. 

Tell me more about this Sci fi movie? and what are your other five 
favourite films?

I especially like the part when the mad cleanup guy arrives with his 
jars of acid. It is just so frighteningly credible. It always makes me 
think how great the RPG Top Secret could have been if I had got around 
to playing it more often.


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:25:18 +1300
Subject: Re: Oh no, not DIE HARD IX ?!

> Loren wrote:
> > Supplements sold many times more units than adventures. Rules books
> > like Mercenary sold even better. Adventures are necessary for the long
> > term survival of the game, but money is necessary for the short term
> > survival of the company. I spend three weeks writing an adventure, it
> > sells 5000 copies. I spend the same amount of time doing a supplement,
> > it sells 15000. (Actually, it was more like: "Loren spends a month
> > designing a product versus Loren spends a month developing two
> > products).
> >
> >  None of this is meant to be interpreted as saying adventures are not
> > very important to a game.
> >
> >      Loren "Discretion" Wiseman

With all due respect for those who do design the official adventures for 
Traveller in all its incarnations, I have to say I have never 
intentionally purchased an adventure. I may have picked one up as part 
of a deal that included buying supplements of CT but never have I played 
 in, run, or purchased a commercial adventure. The rational was simply 
that my fellow gamers and I felt we had adventures that were either 
organic (steming naturally from an ongoing campaign) or tied in more 
closely with what the players wanted to do. The other side to the 
rational was that there was a distinct possibility that if the referee 
had a copy of the adventure, then so did one of the players. Critical to 
a Traveller adventure is the sense of the unknown and unexpected.

On the other hand, I have played in many adventures that relate very 
closely to the latest popular action or Scifi movie in town.



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 06:23:36 UT
Subject: RE: Dave's TNE

Harold Hale said

>Boyd Schneider writes: 
>
>>It took me a while to get there, as I was emotionally 
>>attached to GDW's version, but I no longer rely on 
>>any published material for the background I now use.  

<snip>
>   While my approach was somewhat more conservative than yours (my > setting 
takes place within the same era and universe as the rest of TNE), we > appear 
to agree on the need make the *game* meet *your* needs, not vice > versa.

You got the point, but I wanted to emphasize that the keyword above was "rely" 
- -- that is, I use the original CT setting up until the JTAS announcing the 5th 
Frontier War (so long ago...).  I was excited to get it, but after a few days 
the realization began to dawn on me that this was changing the flavor of my 
spaghetti -- did I mention that I was very particular about my spaghetti?  So 
then, my CT became a divergent timeline.  

				---Boyd




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 06:43:42 UT
Subject: RE: Cleon and the Marches

Michael, 

So far this post makes the most sense to me.  I really don't have anything 
else much to add, so at least hear my applause for a very plausible post. :-)>

			---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 05:58:48 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Quality Control

Stew, I mean Stu said:

>OTOH, I will agree with you...  After getting used to the complexity 
>of MT (which is, after bug fixes, my system of choice) reading T4 is 
>like eating Chinese food, flavorful, but not entirely satisfying...

I still prefer spaghetti...			;-)>

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 02:47:37 -0700
Subject: Hop, Skip, and Jump

WARNING to all who read this...

	I am about to attack cannon.  I know that I am risking all 
credibility as a Traveller referee, but this is something that I have 
given  a lot of thought to.

	I'm posting because I really want to know what all of you think. 
 Either convince me that I'm wrong, or rebel, with me, against a basic 
tenent of Traveller--one of the few things that has stayed consistent 
through all of its incarnations.

			Ready?

			Is you foot a-tapping?

			Is you hip a-shaking?

		LET'S ROCK THIS MAIL LIST!!!!!!!


To lay all of my cards out on the table--I just don't buy the 
one-week-in-jump-no-matter-what-the-jump-number-is rule.

I believe that, when comparing ships capable of Jump-1 and Jump-5, the 
Jump-5 ship should not only be able to jump farther, but it should also 
be able to make a 1 parsec jump in 20% the time it takes the other ship. 
 
Better jump capability should not only give you greater range, but more 
speed as well.

I've had many a fun session with PC's on the run, jumping out system by 
the skin of their teeth, only to find the people chasing them already 
waiting for them at their next destination.

So there it is--my blasphamous thought.  

Either throw stones, or join the dark side--we'll rule the galaxy 
together!

(afraid to sign)
Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:06:26 +1000
Subject: Generating spacestations

The thread about starbases has given me an idea on doing a QSDS like 
system to design space statins, starports, orbital instalations and the like.

Here is some ground rules, mainly to see what the responce is like.

1. FFS shal form the bases of the system.
2. It should be compatable with QSDS,SDSS and SCDS.
3. It will cover technolagy usable for the NAH ie batteries, solar power, 
   MHD et al ( as well as non G-compensator gravity sources like spin 
   habitats)
4. Brings back the astroid and buffered astroid from High Guard, with 
   different variations (ie expanded and escavated astroids) 
5. It should be simple, but detailed (no complex formula's, tables or 
   ratio's based on 1 displacement ton (14m^3).
6. We should be able to allw people to acurately map an instalation.

The emphasis here is details to allow a GM to define a space station or 
whatever in TRAVELLER TERMS. Designs should b based on "hey , that is a 
cool idea, what would it look like in Traveller" and not "Sh*t, I cant 
put those fighter bays in, And what about the damn generators.."

Reality testing could be compared with Mir, Freedom, Spacelab, The Death 
Star and an O'neal colony (al la Babylon 5 and Gundam 0083).

Do you feel that there is a need for this system? Should it be under NAH 
or would you like to see it as a quick and dirty system like QSDS?

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 

"That's verry important to you, all that theatrical stuff."

"It's everything Evey. The perfect entrance, the grand illusion. Its 
everything...and Im going to bring the house down. They have forgotten 
the drama of it all...you see, they abbandoned the scripts when the world 
withered in the glare of the nuclear footlights. Im going to remind them 
about melodrama. About  the tuppenny rush and the penny dreadfull...You 
see, Evey, al the world is a stage, and everything else....
is vaudeville."

Evey and V, V for Vendetta by Allen Moore and David Lloyd.


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 03:02:30 -0700
Subject: To:  Declan Feeney

Declan, 

I'm pouring over a printed copy of your post, as I write this, positing 
your 4 + skill + (stat / 2) system.  

You've got a nice table here listing the probability of success for 
various target numbers using the T4 system.

My question to you is do you have a similiar table showing the probs 
using your target number system and the dice difficulty level dice change 
handy.  If you do, I'd really like to see.  Maybe others here would as 
well.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #517
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 518

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: To:  Declan Feeney
         2. Skill systems:  Albedo Anthropomorphics...
         3. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         4. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         5. RE: Generating spacestations
         6. RE: Cleon and the Marches
         7. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
         8. Re: Generating spacestations
         9. Hail Harold!
        10. Re: Probability
        11. Re: To:  Declan Feeney
        12. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        13. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        14. Re: Spectacular Failure
        15. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        16. Adults vs. kids
        17. Re: More Probabilities
        18. Push towards the Marches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 03:09:41 -0700
Subject: Re: To:  Declan Feeney

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> >
> > Declan,
> >
> > I'm pouring over a printed copy of your post, as I write this, positing
> > your 4 + skill + (stat / 2) system.
> >
> > You've got a nice table here listing the probability of success for
> > various target numbers using the T4 system.
> >
> > My question to you is do you have a similiar table showing the probs
> > using your target number system and the dice difficulty level dice change
> > handy.  If you do, I'd really like to see.  Maybe others here would as
> > well.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Kenneth.
> 
> Oops!  I just noticed.  What I would like to see is a table with the
> increased dice for the difficulty levels and the (skill x 2) + stat
> system (not the 4 + skill + (stat / 2) system).
> 
> Don't kill yourself if you don't have it handy.  I was just hoping you
> already had a table made.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Jeffrey Cornish" <Boy_Scout@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 07:36:14 UT
Subject: Skill systems:  Albedo Anthropomorphics...

Okay, just for comparison here's the skill system for Albedo Anthropomorphics 
(<obplug> available from Chessex, </obplug>), developed by Paul Kidd (a way 
cool Australian writer/game designer)

The system revolves around the "Task Roll Chart"  Actually there have been two 
editions, so I'll include the details about both.

1st edition's skill system took the character's 'Governing Attribute' for a 
skill (or average if it involved two) and multiplied it by the character's 
'Training Level' in that skill, divided by ten.

Governing Attributes range from 1 to 15, as do skill levels.  'Average' 
attributes are about 10, exceptionally high attributes to up to 17.

Here's the task roll chart for the 1st ed., with the Difficulty levels:

Difference between      roll       
  Ability Score         less         
   and Target           than:                                             

  -12 to -9	              2       
   -8 to -6               3     
    -5, -4                4
    -3, -2                5     
      -1                  6    
       0                  7    
      +1                  8
    +2, +3                9
    +4, +5               10    
  +6 or better           11

    or a roll of 12 always fails.
    a difference greater than -12

  Difficulty    Target
     simple         5
     average       10
     difficult     15
  very difficult   20
nearly impossible  25


Combat Shot Difficulty by Range
	range   Normal  'Dart'
		   ammo    ammo
	close     5        5
	short     8        8
	medium   12       10
	long     16       14
     extreme   20       20

(Dart ammo is an item in Albedo:  rounds that are fin stabilized sabots with 
base bleed)

So here's a quick example skill.

Governing Attrib:  10
Skill level		  9  (this should be equivilent to T4 skill-2)
Ability Score:	  9	

Here's some task roll examples:

difficulty  difference  target roll
  simple       (+4)	  10-
  average      (-1) 	  6-
  difficult    (-6)	  3-
very difficult (-11) 	  2
near impossble (-16)  	 fail

All sorts of modifiers to the task roll (DRM's) can be made due to fatigue, 
wounds, encumberance, etc.

The second edition of Albedo Anthropomorphics changed the system a bit.  The 
task roll chart was changed and the 'Training Level' was dropped.  Instead a 
character could simply be skilled, be adept or a master at the skill.  also, 
the differnce between the character's skill and the target is called the 
'Chart Number'

Here's the info:

Task difficulty numbers:
  Very Simple     0
     Simple       5
     Average     10
    Difficult    15
 Very difficult  20
 Near Impossible 25

Chart Number	Roll
- -12 or under	 2
- -11 -10 -9         3
   -8 -7           4
   -6 -5           5
 -4 -3 -2          6
 -1  0 +1          7
 +2 +3 +4          8
   +5 +6           9
   +7 +8          10
 +9 and over      11
a roll of 12 always fails


Chart Number Modifiers
No Skill:         -5
Skilled:           0
Adept at skill:   +5
Master at skill: +10

So for a character with a Governing Attribute of 10 who is skilled, here's 
another breakdown:

V simple     (+15)  11-
simple       (+10)  11-
average       (+5)   9-
difficult     (0)    7-
v difficult   (-5)   5-
near impsble (-10)   3-

Combat difficulties:
close	   	5
short		10
medium	15
long		20
extreme 	25

also, to help tell the story about the task, there are result grades:

(success grade 5) if the roll is a natural 2, it's 'The Tops'
(success grade 4) roll is 6 or more below, it's an Excellent Success
(success grade 3) roll is 4 or 5 below, it's a Very Good Success
(success grade 2) roll is 2 or 3 below, it's a Good Success
(success grade 1) roll is 1 or 0 below, it's a close sucess
(failure grade 1) roll is 1 or 2 above, it's a close Failure
(failure grade 2) roll is 3 or 4 above, it's a Bad Failure
(failure grade 3) roll is 5 or 6 above, it's a Very Bad Failure
(failure grade 4) roll is 7 or 8 above, it's an Abysmal Failure
(failure grade 5) roll is natural 12, it's "the Pits'

success and failure grades effect how tasks get done (time, money, materials, 
how far grenades bounce off target...)

That's what I have

Signing off for the night.

Signal S Q  (Stations Quiet)

jeffrey

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:37:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Michael Barry gave a darn fine analysis of the 3I spread into the Marches,
complete with (presumably canonical) dates:

   Yes, I read this post, and thought it was excellent; the best and most
definitive statement made on this topic yet!  I don't have any of my old books
handy to check out what you've written, but it all seems perfectly logical
and takes into account the best parts of all the other theories.  I'm
keeping this on file.

Trent Smith
P.S. (In which I sound off on a topic about which I have no factual knowledge)
    I don't have the statistical savvy to figure out probabilities with
more than 2D, but it seems that the proposed method of Easy= 1D, Avg= 2D,
Diff= 3D, Form= 4D, etc would kill two birds with one stone by making the
success rates seem more reasonable (and more consistent with MT) and also
get rid of those weird 1/2D rolls.  Am I missing some obvious drawback here?
    Also, for what it's worth, I don't think of the T4 task system so much as
being BROKEN as much as just not (as it currently stands) suited to my
personal tastes.  As of right now, if/when I run T4 I'll probably stick to
the MT task system (minus all the complex options), but I'm still curious
to see what all the statisticians on the list can come up with.


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 01:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

     Nice attempt to bash serious canon, but I'm afraid you won't get very 
far.  Your preference for "faster" ships being able to make same-distance
jumps in less time has no grounding in anything except a vague personal 
preference and seemingly would completely change the dynamic of the entire
game.  You might as well just be saying "I've never really liked it that 
Traveller can't have instantaneous interstellar communication; it'd sure
make things a whole lot more efficient".  No one's going to stop you from
thinking that, but unless you can provide LOTS of really good reasons to
back your statement up, you're not going to win against one of the fundamental
assumptions of the game
     It's too late and I've got too much other stuff to do to think up the 
implications for an interstellar society in which 'fast' ships could travel
between stars in a day or two as opposed to Traveller's 1-week minimum (for 
one, it would irrevocably change trade and communication strategies) but I'm
pretty certain that they would be significant enough that the interstellar
community structure would be changed enough that it would no longer be
"Traveller" in it's traditionally recognizable form.  Who knows, maybe such a
new model would be "better" than the one that we currently have, but it just 
seems to me that if you're going to accept the concept of "Traveller" and the
sort of future society it envisions, that there are certain fundamental
assumptions you'll just need to accept, and it also seems to me that
"Interstellar travel takes no less than one week" is one of those, almost as
much as "Communication is limited to the speed of travel."
     Like I said, though, I admire a nice attempt at large-scale subversion
anywhere I can find one.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Date: Wed,  9 Oct 96 08:42:00 GMT 
Subject: RE: Generating spacestations

> Do you feel that there is a need for this system? Should it be
> under NAH or would you like to see it as a quick and dirty system
> like QSDS?
    Both actually. ;) And yes, at least "I" think such a system is necessary!
Think of ALL the Asteroid Belt systems and A class starports with orbital
components and it's need becomes blindingly obvious. ;) All IMHO OC.

Stephen


------------------------------

From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Date: Wed,  9 Oct 96 08:42:00 GMT 
Subject: RE: Cleon and the Marches

> Comments? Reactions? *Any* response to any of my posts?
    I just "tuned in" to this debate, and I'm getting real tired of having to
trim out 40% or so of 200+ messages a day because some folks can't seem to
figure out this is the TRAVELLER LIST.  Having said that though... I think
you've got a good point with the timeline.
    My question is how coheisive were the Vilani at that point in time to be
able to reasonably negotiate with Cleon.  Oh and if memory serves... didn't one
of the Emperors marry a Vilani Noblewoman?  Might not that be token of such an
agreement that you're proposing???

> I'm starting to feel like a late-night radio DJ here. Surely this
> list can't be entirely made up of lurkers, statisticians and religious
> fundamentalists. :]
    Hey, I was expecting discussions of TRAVELLER, not having to spend an hour
or so a night just going through useless garbage.  I gave up and switched to
Digest in the hopes of getting some of my time back.  Pity I had to do it
though.

> Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history,
> or should I shut up for good?
    Hey, I AM interested!  Just, uhm... don't expect a reply from me until the
next Digest comes out.  Sorry but all the other stuff forced me into having to
do it I hate to say.

Stephen


------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 05:54:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, IMHO, you have stated the problem VERY accurately.
> 
> OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say
> that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?
> 

BTW - by the way
IMHO - in my humble opinion
(as opposed to IMNSHO - in my NOT so humble opinion)

________________________________________________________________________
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:23:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Generating spacestations

- ----------
> From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
> Subject: Generating spacestations
> Date: Wednesday, October 09, 1996 2:06 AM
>
> 6. We should be able to allw people to acurately map an instalation.
> 
> Do you feel that there is a need for this system? Should it be under NAH 
> or would you like to see it as a quick and dirty system like QSDS?
> 

GREAT idea !!!  I don't know of anything that laid out any ground rules for
making maps/plans other than giving you deck heights and maybe grid sizes. 
It would be great if there was a system that would give some help in this
area.  I have always wondered how big the orbital part of a class A
starport might be, not to mention what it looked like.

If the project takes off and you need a hand, drop me a line.  I'll do what
I can.
______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:36:27 +0900
Subject: Hail Harold!

Hi, Harold!  It's nice to get noticed by the ones you admire.

Harold said:
>> Speaking of our resident Atheist, belief in a Supreme Being is an act 
of
faith.  The same can be said for the disbelief in a Supreme Being--for 
while
there is no conclusive scientific proof that God exists, there is no
conclusive scientific proof God *doesn't* exist either.  Since nobody is
going to prove anybody right or wrong in this discussion, the discussion 
is
merely a philosophical excercise.  Philosophical excercises are great 
mental
gymnastics, but like real gymnastics, if someone gets hurt, it's not fun
anymore.

(Sounds of masking tape being ripped off a mouth...)

Normally I would say "Faith?  No, just the facts.  Lack of proof is not 
proof - facts require proof," but instead I'm going to attempt to be funny 
and say, "Well then, to be completely fair we'd all have to become 
agnostics!"

You may begin laughing now.  ;-D

Signed,

(Not the Only) Resident Atheist

(Replacing masking tape...)


------------------------------

From: Declan Feeney <afeeney@tcp.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:42:28 -0000
Subject: Re: Probability

Trent Smith wrote on 09-Oct-96:

>  P.S. (In which I sound off on a topic about which I have no factual kn=
owledge)
>      I don't have the statistical savvy to figure out probabilities wit=
h
>  more than 2D, but it seems that the proposed method of Easy=3D 1D, Avg=
=3D 2D,
>  Diff=3D 3D, Form=3D 4D, etc would kill two birds with one stone by mak=
ing the
>  success rates seem more reasonable (and more consistent with MT) and a=
lso
>  get rid of those weird 1/2D rolls.  Am I missing some obvious drawback=
 here?

Yeah, If you increase the number of Dice you increase the probability of
a Spectacular Failure. The Impossible Roll (6D under your system), now ha=
s
a 26.32% chance of resulting in spectacular failure!!!

I personally don't have a problem with this - If they are going to attemp=
t the
improssible they should expect spectacularly bad results - but some peopl=
e
might not be happy.

I'm more concerned that your suggestion doesn't affect the heavy influenc=
e
stats have on the outcome.

If any one is interested.

Probability of No 6s:    5/6 ^n (where n =3D number of rolls)

Probability of One 6:   n/6 (5/6^n-1) (where n=3Dnumber of rolls)

Probability of Two or more 6s:  1 - (probability of No 6s + probability o=
f One 6)


>      Also, for what it's worth, I don't think of the T4 task system so =
much as
>  being BROKEN as much as just not (as it currently stands) suited to my=

>  personal tastes. =



I'm inclined to agree. I think the system just needs balancing, which wil=
l
probably just take trial and error. If it can be made to work its simplic=
ity
will make it stand out as a superb system.

By the way, a peice of advice for anyone unhappy with halving d6s. Blank
d6s are available from Buffalo Games - You can just write the numbers 1-3=

on one twice, and get round all arguements as to which is the half die.

- -- =

Cheers,

Declan :^>



Declan Feeney
14 Thornhill Rd,
Edgerton,
Huddersfield,
HD3 3DD                                   Tel: 00 44 1484 428408
ENGLAND                                   Fax: 00 44 1484 312368

######################################################################
#                                                                    #
#     Homepage (PICH) at 'http://www.tcp.co.uk/~afeeney/             #
#                                                                    #
######################################################################


------------------------------

From: Declan Feeney <afeeney@tcp.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:42:03 -0000
Subject: Re: To:  Declan Feeney

Kenneth Bearden wrote on 09-Oct-96:

>  > Oops!  I just noticed.  What I would like to see is a table with the
>  > increased dice for the difficulty levels and the (skill x 2) + stat
>  > system (not the 4 + skill + (stat / 2) system).

Since the table I provided only has the Target numbers on it, it should be
equally applicable to any system which just changes the Target number.

As for the (Skill x2) + Stat system, hold with me and I'll have some stats up
by tomorrow. I will warn you however, from a few play trials, the Spec.
Failures can occur MUCH more frequently. 

 
- -- 
Cheers,

Declan :^>



Declan Feeney
14 Thornhill Rd,
Edgerton,
Huddersfield,
HD3 3DD                                   Tel: 00 44 1484 428408
ENGLAND                                   Fax: 00 44 1484 312368

######################################################################
#                                                                    #
#     Homepage (PICH) at 'http://www.tcp.co.uk/~afeeney/             #
#                                                                    #
######################################################################


------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 06:48:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
(a great mini timeline regarding early activity in/near Spinward Marches!) 

****snippage****
>      50    First Zhodani contact with Imperial traders [Foreven sector?]


I've been thinking about this one.  If Imperial *traders* contact the Zho in 50, 
would it seem plausible that the Scouts (huzzah!) had already made prior contact?  

Foreven sector?  Spinward would be the logical choice.  By the way, this would make 
for a very interesting adventure.  How about T4 Adventure 1: First Contact (doesn't 
it tickle your CT tastebuds?).  An intrepid band of characters, while exploring far 
out on the frontier, stumble across the fabled Zhodani.

Which brings up another point - can you imagine how the chaps at the Psionics 
Institute must've felt when they heard the news of an empire composed of psis.  The 
Psi Faction at Court could've helped push Cleon into making a commitment on sending 
resources into the Marches.  Well, maybe pushed isn't the right word.  :)

****more snippage****
>      Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut
>      up for good?

Yes.... and no.....   Yes, there are those interested in Traveller "history" and no, 
don't shut up.  The history behind Traveller is part of what makes the game for me.  

Ensign John

________________________________________________________________________ 
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:14:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>      3. The Vargr were raiding the Vilani throughout the Long Night. 
>      4. The Zhodani Consulate reached the edge of the Spinward Marches 1000
>      years ago and almost definitely contacted the pre-Maghiz Darrians.

The Joes were expanding slowly at this point, the 3I simply got there fustest with the 
mostest

>      The Vilani were very quick to join the Third Imperium, although it meant
>      being a 'junior partner', with status nowhere near that of the *Ziru
>      Sirka*.
>      The Vilani are a highly conservative race, and around Year Zero they
>      have spent over 1000 years in a state of emergency: fighting Vargr corsairs
>      (some armed with alarmingly high-tech weaponry, possibly of Zhodani
>      origin); the perfidious Zhodani known to be lurking *somewhere* behind the
>      Great Rift; and the land-ravenous and warlike Aslan rumoured to have
>      crossed the Rift as well.
"perfidious Zhodani?" The 3I is the oppressive state, the Joes are decent and caring about 
their citizenry
>      In these circumstances, the Vilani may have been in secret
>      negotiations with Cleon for some time. They agreed to
>      join the Imperium immediately, if Cleon could secure their
>      core-spinward frontiers against the possibility of Vargr, Zhodani, and
>      even Aslan, encroachment. Later developments that support this: the
>      rapid push into what became the Domain of Deneb, despite the massive
>      military effort required to secure and patrol Corridor against Vargr
>      incursion; and the extremely rapid colonisation of the Marches.

Sounds very reasonable, though primarily from Vargr. Another possibility is that there 
might be records of colonies headed that way (Sword Worlds) as well. They are far 
enough out, the thinking might be that they may not have had such a bad fall, or even 
that we would have the moral claim if we get to them first and "rescue" them

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:08:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Spectacular Failure

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Is that right?  I didn't think the D3's counted in figuring
> spectacular failure, just the D6's.  

Nope, it isn't right.  I didn't have my book with me, and 
mis-remembered.  :(  I corrected that in later posts that night, though.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:29:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

John Macek wrote:
> >      Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut
> >      up for good?
> 
> Yes.... and no.....   Yes, there are those interested in Traveller "history" and no,
> don't shut up.  The history behind Traveller is part of what makes the game for me.

I have to agree. All the arguments about canon are not just for the sake of Official status
It is because the Traveller Universe is the largest _consistent_ roleplaying background 
ever. And most of us use it because there is such a wealth of ideas, not because it is the 
"Official Approved" version
And to avoid writing any more about religion (and such) I switch to Lurker mode
Keep the Flame (I mean that in a continue the Imperium and any nasty response as well)

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:00:05 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Adults vs. kids

At 09:08 PM 10/7/96 -0400, Joe Walsh wrote:

>Still, the problem remains: what do you do when an adult goes up against 
>a kid in a competitive game like Magic: The Gathering?  If the adult 
>wins, the kid may be upset.  If the adult wins and gloats...what do you 
>do? 

This remind me of one of my favourite lines from POGO: "Personally I find
it best not to get into a battle of wits with a worm. If you loose, people
say you can't outthink a worm. If you win, people say that you CAN outthink
a worm. It is a subject best left alone." (I forget just who said it;
either Mouse or Snavely, I think).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Look! Smoke signals! Can you read them, Chief?"

"Of course. Ah... 'Puff, puff puff, puff; puff, puff puff, puff,
apostrophe puff, puff, puff puff, exclamation puff'.

"What does it mean?"

"'Help, my blanket's caught fire!'"

                                --- _Round the Horne_ radio sketch


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:10:58 +0100
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

Joe Walsh wrote:

     [big snip]
     
     Perhaps if we could shift the whole table over by 3 points, it would 
     make more sense.
     
     Anyway....on with the discussion!
     
Joe, it looks like we've come to the same conclusion via different routes. 
I started a thread a week or so ago, saying that the to-hit chances in 
combat were too high and could be made more realistic by increasing 
difficulties by 1 or 2 levels (which is similar to changing the target 
number by 3 points).

Most of the replies I got at the time were that they preferred the more 
"heroic" feel of having the better chance to hit.  I seem to remember this 
view was shared by a certain, well known atari owning, microsoft-free 
80's-ophile ;-).  I bet you eat corn-dogs too :-) :-).

It's great to see this stuff on the list.  I was mulling over lowering the 
effect of stats myself, and I now see that all the work has been done by 
someone else :-).

Proot!
Liam
- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:14:48 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Push towards the Marches

Ethan Henry writes:
>Hm. ~14 sectors, coming back to life for the first time in about
>2000 years. Partly settled, partly abandoned, with lots of untouched
>planets just waiting for the rediscovery of j-3 or the new discovery 
>of j-4. The Vargr starting to rumble coreward. The Aslan still fighting
>rim/spinward (though mostly with the Solomani). ALL THIS and he still
>has resources to push through Corridor into Deneb and the Marches
>(say, when was Deneb settled? Before the Long Night?).

There's no evidence that Cleon did anything with the specific purpose to
encourage the settling of Deneb and the Spinward Marches. What he did was
to push vigorously for exploration of the area. Scout ships were sent out
and bases built in leaps and bounds. The _effect_ was that trades followed
and settlers followed the traders. Cleon MAY have anticipated this, so 
there is equally no evidence that he _didn't_ want the Marches settled
quickly.

However a perfectly good reason for wanting the space around him explored
is that he wanted to know about potential threats in advance (and about
potential recruits too, of course).

Personally I incline to the "where traders go, governors will follow"
theory of how the Imperium got to the Marches, but the evidence either
way is weak.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #518
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 519

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Dave's TNE -Reply
         2. Re: A sudden urge
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #505
         4. Re: A sudden urge
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #507
         6. Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         7. Re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...
         8. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
         9. More Probability Stuff (REALLY LONG)
        10. Non-detailed worlds
        11. Re: Multi-Letter Acronyms (Was Re: To Peter Miller)
        12. Cleon & the Marches
        13. Re: NIKITA
        14. Re: NIKITA
        15. Re: NIKITA
        16. Cleon and the Marches
        17. Re: Cleon & the Marches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 09:20:14 -0400
Subject: RE: Dave's TNE -Reply

 Boyd Schneider stated:

>You got the point, but I wanted to emphasize that the keyword above
>was "rely"  -- that is, I use the original CT setting up until the JTAS
>announcing the 5th  Frontier War (so long ago...).  I was excited to get
>it, but after a few days  the realization began to dawn on me that this
>was changing the flavor of my  spaghetti -- did I mention that I was very
>particular about my spaghetti?  So  then, my CT became a divergent
>timeline.  

I did something similar when MT came out. I really didn't like the rebellion
(as I think about it now, I'm not sure why). I wound up using my computer
to generate another "core" sector in a different galaxy, created the maps
(minus trade routes--I was going to figure them out as we went along,
but sadly the group broke up before we got too far into the campaign),
and wrote a background for it. I linked it to Traveller history by making
humanity's entrance to this galaxy the result of a misjump (stretching the
36 parsec rule, but, hey, I'm the Referee!) and then projecting several
thousands of years into the future, allowing humanity to organize itself in
the form of another imperium in this galaxy. 

It worked well, allowing me to take CT adventures and plug them in
where I wanted, and allowing me to develop my own campaign
background. It's too bad the group only lasted about six months, or I'd
have a lot more work done on it.

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: "The Phoenix" <DANIWALL@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:38:16 MST
Subject: Re: A sudden urge

Boyd:

       To get the question, you simply take every other question that 
has ever, is being, or ever will be asked anywhere and put them all 
into one question.  And there you have it!

"I'm not afraid."
"You will be.  You will be." - Luke and Yoda
42 - the answer
The Phoenix
daniwall@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

From: "The Phoenix" <DANIWALL@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:38:49 MST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #505

Ignore the last.

"I'm not afraid."
"You will be.  You will be." - Luke and Yoda
42 - the answer
The Phoenix
daniwall@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

From: "The Phoenix" <DANIWALL@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:39:58 MST
Subject: Re: A sudden urge

To get the answer, you simply take every question that ever has been, 
is being, or will be asked anywhere and put them all together into 
one question.  And there you have it!

"I'm not afraid."
"You will be.  You will be." - Luke and Yoda
42 - the answer
The Phoenix
daniwall@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

From: "The Phoenix" <DANIWALL@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:42:10 MST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #507

>The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?

African or European?

"I'm not afraid."
"You will be.  You will be." - Luke and Yoda
42 - the answer
The Phoenix
daniwall@mchs5.cache.k12.ut.us

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:22:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Quoth Rob Prior:
> Actually, I've been trying to cobble together a future history of
> Christianity, complete with schisms, revivals, mergers (like A.C. Clarke's
> "Chrislam") and so forth....  Eventually I'll post them here.

Don't wait too long!  I think this would be fascinating to see.  Would a
possible solution be to put it on a web page, where it would be accessible
to you for tinkering but likewise available for view and comment?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:37:10 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...

Moin Joel Lovell,

> Can anyone point me to a good web site that has a complete campaign setting
> - with world information for a whole sector or something?  Preferably in the
> Core? Or should I try and locate and buy up some old DGP stuff?

	at my page http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller
	is the SAME java viewer but containing ALL 35 sectors.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:02:13 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

Moin Thanasis Kinias,

> 4.  A potentially-dangerous topic is character stats for female humans.
> No system I have played realistically portrays the physiological
> differences between men and women.  This is, I believe, due to a desire
> not to depict women as inferior.  However, women's lack of the physical
> strength of men (in general) is obvious and should ideally be modelled.
> In Rolemaster I devised a house rule that women would be penalised in
> strength and would get bonuses in constitution and empathy.  I haven't
> settled on a system for Trav yet.  Any suggestions, flames, comments?

	I would allow a Con+1/Str-1 for female characters rule,
	for the physical attributes. But if we increase Cha what
	mentatal attribute should we decrease. Int or Edu would
	certainly make womans inferior.

	I would advise a different rule: Whenever a charisma
	based task is between a woman and a man increase
	the assert by one and expect strange situations
	if the TL+Edu < 10.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:58:56 -0500
Subject: More Probability Stuff (REALLY LONG)

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 02:16:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
>
>> Well, IMHO, you have stated the problem VERY accurately.  
>
>OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say 
>that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?

IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
BTW  - By The Way

>Again, total agreement.  I also really like the idea of characterisics 
>being important to achieving success at a task throw--I just don't like 
>them being ALL IMPORTANT.

I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I think we are taking the wrong
approach getting so involved with the percentages and all.  Yes, it is an
interesting case study, but what we need to focus on is how to get the "to
hit" number to a reasonable position.  Look at this table to see what I mean...

   To Hit Number for Normal T4

Attrib-->  7     8     9     A     B     C     D     E     F
Skill
   1       8     9    10    11    12    13    14    15    16
   2       9    10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17
   3      10    11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18
   4      11    12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19
   5      12    13    14    15    16    17    18    19    20

No the problem, as I see it, is that moving one column to the right is the
same as moving one row down, or, a skill level is equal to an attribute
level.  When I posted the table for the average guy, they matched your
percents fairly closely, they were a bit skewed to being easy, but they were
real close.  So I think the issue is that we need to make the higher
attributes less powerful.

Now here is the same chart using the 4 + (attrib/2) + skill, which is the
best method so far, I think...  (can't remember whether to round up or down,
but I'm gonna round down).

   To Hit Number for Method A

Attrib-->  7     8     9     A     B     C     D     E     F
Skill
   1       8     9     9    10    10    11    11    12    12
   2       9    10    10    11    11    12    12    13    13
   3      10    11    11    12    12    13    13    14    14
   4      11    12    12    13    13    14    14    15    15
   5      12    13    13    14    14    15    15    16    16

This definitely reduces the effect (or is it affect) that Attribute has on
the to hit number.  I like this method the best, but I don't know if it is best.

   To Hit Number for Method A          To Hit Number for Normal T4

Attrib-->1   2   3   4   5   6       Attrib-->1   2   3   4   5   6
Skill                                Skill
   1     5   6   6   7   7   8          1     2   3   4   5   6   7
   2     6   7   7   8   8   9          2     3   4   5   6   7   8
   3     7   8   8   9   9  10          3     4   5   6   7   8   9
   4     8   9   9  10  10  11          4     5   6   7   8   9  10
   5     9  10  10  11  11  12          5     6   7   8   9  10  11

Now for the lower Attribute number, it causes problems.  The plus 4 tends to
make failure much less likely.   Hmmm, well, this is just more wood for the
fire, I don't have a definite answer yet, but I am working on it.

More later


------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:01:13 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Non-detailed worlds

Eris Reddoch writes:
>On 10/07/96 at 01:57 PM,  Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> said:
> 
>>The problem with the unexplored worlds that close to Sylea is not the size
>>of the Imperium in Year 0, but that the Sylean Federation is 650 years old
>>(propably Sylea never did loose jump capacity at all; anyway, they've had
>>jump ships for 650 years at least). The notion that at least the physical
>>characteristics of worlds that close to Sylea would be unknown, simply
>>trips  my "suspension-of-disbelief" curcuit breakers. Its quite possible
>>that some of them would not have been visited in a while, but being
>>completely unknown?  No way!
> 
>Hans, I don't have a problem with the un-labeled worlds in Core Subsector. 
>Notice I didn't say unexplored. <g>
> 
>My take on it is that Marc and the boys wanted to leave a number of worlds
>open for individual GM's to detail.  I'd say those systems *have* been
>explored and may (or may not) be part of the Federation. They've just been
>set aside for us to customize.  That's my take on it anyway.

That is a reasonable idea and if it is correct then I withdraw my critisism.
Indeed, I think it is an excellent idea to set aside areas as "Refs' only".
It would also, IMO, be a good idea to tell the Referees about it. ;-)

Then there is the whole question of just how much it is appropiate to leave
for the individual referees. One of the strong points of an official 
setting (more or less the only one, come to think about it) is to help the
referee by providing him with more background material than he can manage
to create on his own. A careful balance must be struck. Leave too much open
and a referee might just as well create his own campaign setting and use
the official stuff as plug-ins.
	No, I'm wrong. There is one other point to an official setting: To
make fan-created material easier to use by other fans.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:00:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Multi-Letter Acronyms (Was Re: To Peter Miller)

David Joseph Smart wrote:

> Awright. I'll admit to being an unwashed, ignorant savage...what the
> heck if "ROFLMAO"? (how embarassing)

Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off.

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:18:15 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Cleon & the Marches

Trent Smith writes:
>      What's so important about the Spinward Marches?  Well, two big things 
> are the Ancients howeworld and the proximity to Zhodane.  While the first
> wouldn't have been known in the early 3I (is there any evidence that it may
> have been Suspected even?) the second one would seemingly have been of
> pretty major importance.  It's cited that the 3I contacted Zhodani c. 50,
> and imagine what they thought: A fellow rapidly-expanding Human empire, but
> this one made of shady Psions.  

Psions weren't regarded as scum in the early days of the 3rd Imperium.

>No wonder they were in a hurry to grab up as much "land" Spinward of the 
>Great Rift as possible-- we've got to establish a strategic beach-head 
>there before the Zhos claim it and next thing we know they've got fleets 
>lined up right next door to Vland!

The Imperials may have thought that, but the timespan of 10 years between
the first contact in 50 and the settlement of Mora (by a private company,
btw.  even if it was a Megacorporation) in 60 is awfully tight for a report 
to come back to Core,  be verified, an official policy formed and finally
implemented.

>      Of course, the Zhos were slower to expand into the area than the 
> Imperials feared, 

You can say that again! The Consulate ceased its expansion in -1000 "to
consolidate" and it hadn't resumed expansion (except to corewards) in
1100!

>the two empires not coming into border-to-border contact until the 6th 
>century, but look what happened then.  Do you think that if the 3I didn't 
>have a strong presence in the area already that the Zhos wouldn't have 
>continued to breeze right through Deneb and Corridor? 

I certainly think that if the Imperium hadn't expanded into the Spinward
Marches then the Zhodani wouldn't even have colonized those few worlds in 
Cronor, Querion and Jewell that they did colonize. However, I'm not saying 
that the Imperium would have realized that in 60. Still, it seems unlikely
that they would worry much about the Zhodani 150 parsecs away when there 
were plenty of other starfaring cultures closer to home. 

>     It makes sense to me, and helps explain why the early Imperium would
>have been interested in what was (at the time) a largely uninteresting and
>very remote backwater region.

Its arguable, anyway, but I don't think it's necessary to do so. The
Marches were explored and settled in leaps and bounds and it took many 
centuries to "fill in the cracks". Just because Mora was settled in 60
dosen'tmean that Mora was settled by hordes of people. A few 100 people
would be enough to make a viable ressource extration outpost. A few
1000 enough to make a viable colony.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:22:06 +0100
Subject: Re: NIKITA

     
Simon John Harding wrote:
     
     Liam McCauley worte:
     >      the film (I nearly walked out after the first scene), but I 
     >      class it in my top 5 favourite films now.  The soundtrack makes 
     >      good back background music for gaming sessions too :-).
     > 
     >      I can't wait for Luc Besson's sci-fi flick to come out. 
     > 
     
     Extraordinary movie, I know what you mean. Someone on the list did 
     post 
     the actual US name of the American re-make but I haven't been able to 
     find it. What was the name of the French actress? 
     
Anne Parillaud.  Now married to Luc Besson.  Try and catch her in "Innocent 
Blood".  Not in the same league as Nikita, but still fun.
     
     A local cinema recently played a double feature with Nikita and a 
     movie 
     called Diva. I had seen both before on video so I didn't bother to go 
     because Diva absolutely suxs and is nowhere near the same quality of 
     Nikita. 
     
You missed the chance to see Nikita at the cinema?  Poor fool ;-).  It's 
well worth seeing if you get the chance - the experience is so much more 
intense than video.
     
     Tell me more about this Sci fi movie? and what are your other five 
     favourite films?
     
Well, I have about twenty top-five favourite films ;-), but here's a few:
Star Wars IV-VI(natch), Alien, Aliens, The Terminator, Reservoir Dogs, The 
Usual Suspects, Nikita, Leon, When Harry Met Sally, Rear Window, Some Like 
it Hot, The African Queen, Groundhog Day, Strictly Ballroom, Cyrano do 
Bergerac... I'd better stop there.
     
     I especially like the part when the mad cleanup guy arrives with his 
     jars of acid. It is just so frighteningly credible. It always makes me 
     think how great the RPG Top Secret could have been if I had got around 
     to playing it more often.
     
Yeah, good old Jean Reno as Victor nettoyeur.  I had real problems with his 
character in Mission: Impossible; he was just so un-cool after Leon (which 
was released as "The Professional" in the US, IIRC - what is it about 
Besson's films being renamed?) and Nikita.

For my fix of Techno-Thriller roleplaying, I tend to play Millenium's End.  
It also made me do a lot of research on Florida, which came in handy when I 
went there on holiday last year :-).
     

Luc's new film is called "Le Cinquieme element", aka "The Fifth Element" 
which has been recently renamed "The Fifth Man".  I'm trying not to get too 
excited about it, because most of the films I look forward to seeing don't 
live up to my expectations (ID4, Alien^3, Stargate).  Anyway, "just the 
facts, ma'am...":
     
Le Cinquieme Element is a sci-fi film set in the future (500 years); 
directed by Luc Besson; music by Eric Serra (hooray!); budget $75m; filming 
in Pinewood studios; release summer 97 (US); cast includes Bruce Willis, 
Milla Jovovich, Lee Evans, Gary Oldman (and I'll take any bets that Jean 
Reno appears, too ;-) ).  There is great secrecy about the plot, but there 
are rumours of a cab driver in NY (unless someone is pulling my leg).

Proot!
Liam

- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 09 Oct 96 10:41:01 EDT
Subject: Re: NIKITA

you dinna like Diva? wow...i LOVED that movie....

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:59:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: NIKITA

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Simon John Harding wrote:

> >      the film (I nearly walked out after the first scene), but I class it
> >      in my top 5 favourite films now.  The soundtrack makes good back
> >      background music for gaming sessions too :-).
> > 
> >      I can't wait for Luc Besson's sci-fi flick to come out.
> > 
> 
> Extraordinary movie, I know what you mean. Someone on the list did post 
> the actual US name of the American re-make but I haven't been able to 
> find it. What was the name of the French actress? 
> 

The American remake with Bridget Fonda is "Point of No Return".  Unless
you're a big Bridget Fonda fan, don't bother seeing it if you've seen "La
Femme Nikita" since it is exaclty the same movie, except in English.

I went into a rental place to get the american film, walked out with the
French one since they were out of the former.  Three weeks later rented
the American version and had Deja Vu all throught the flick.

Both were really good though.

Pete 


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:02:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cleon and the Marches

Hi.

Michael.Barry wrote:

     From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
     Date: 09 Oct 96 13:03:05 +1000
     Subject: Cleon and the Marches

[...]
     The Vilani are a highly conservative race, and around Year Zero they      
     have spent over 1000 years in a state of emergency: fighting Vargr corsairs
     (some armed with alarmingly high-tech weaponry, possibly of Zhodani 
     origin); the perfidious Zhodani known to be lurking *somewhere* behind the 
     Great Rift; and the land-ravenous and warlike Aslan rumoured to have 
     crossed the Rift as well. 

     In these circumstances, the Vilani may have been in secret 
     negotiations with Cleon for some time. They agreed to 
     join the Imperium immediately, if Cleon could secure their 
     core-spinward frontiers against the possibility of Vargr, Zhodani, and 
     even Aslan, encroachment. Later developments that support this: the 
     rapid push into what became the Domain of Deneb, despite the massive 
     military effort required to secure and patrol Corridor against Vargr 
     incursion; and the extremely rapid colonisation of the Marches. 
     
     The Vilani may have also used the 'carrot' of super-technologies 
     present in the Marches, in the form of numerous Ancient sites and 
     Darrian worlds. 
     
     Comments? Reactions? *Any* response to any of my posts? 
     I'm starting to feel like a late-night radio DJ here. Surely this list 
     can't be entirely made up of lurkers, statisticians and religious 
     fundamentalists. :]
     Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut 
     up for good? 

Nonononono! Don't shut up! I've stopped posting on this subject only 
because I've said my piece and people have responded to it. (I'm the guy
who thinks that it's ancient artifacts that Cleon's after.

I think that your analysis of how the Vargr and Vilani fit into all this
is very interesting. The V&V are two races that I tend to ignore more
than I should in my campaign. Your explanations are very compelling and
plausible. I definately plan to use them in my Milieu 0 campaign when I
start running it next week.

Someone complained here last week that it's tough to run a M0 campaign because
there is so little background published for it. These discussions on the
TML are my only resource (besides the T4 book and my imagination) for
ideas regarding M0.

Keep on posting! I certainly will as soon as another interesting idea
infects my brain. 8^)

One question tho. How were the Vilani organised in this period? I assume
they didn't have an effective interstellar government, otherwise Sylea
would have joined them, and not vice versa. 

- -Rob



------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:03:20 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: Cleon & the Marches

Michael Barry writes:
>      Why did Cleon push out to the Spinward Marches so quickly? Take a 
>      selective look at the timeline: 
>      
>      -2800 First Zhodani contact with Vargr.      
>      -2000 First Zhodani contact with Vilani traders. 
>      -1776 Collapse of the Rule of Man. The Long Night begins. 
>      -1104 Aslan first cross the Great Rift. 
>      -1000 Zhodani Consulate reaches its present [1110] size. 
>      -914  Darrians' TL16 culture obliterated by the *Maghiz*
>      -650  Sylean Federation established
>      -30   Cleon's campaign begins [Cleon is 27]
>      0     Third Imperium established
>      50    First Zhodani contact with Imperial traders [Foreven sector?]
>      
>      IFrom this timeline, I draw a few conclusions: 
>      1. As of Year Zero, the Zhodani have had some contact with the Vargr 
>      for 3000 years, with the Vilani for 2000 years and the Aslan for (?500 
>      years?). 

Zhodani trade with Aslans in Trojan Reaches in the 4th or 5th Century (I
don't have my timeline with me).

>      2. Vargr/Zhodani contact probably continued through the Long Night. 
>      3. The Vargr were raiding the Vilani throughout the Long Night. 
>      [Therefore intermittent news /rumours of the Zhodani might still 
>      reach the Vilani via Vargr contact]

Yes, BUT... Given the propable size of any Vargr state the news would have
been fitlered through at least a dozen links. How serious do you think the
Vilani will take them? And what about all the OTHER rumours... those that
dosen't happen to have core of truth? We know that the Zhodani had this
huge, but completely quiscent realm, but would Cleon believe in it?
Wouldn't he assume that any empire that big 2000 years ago that hadn't
reached Core in 2000 years must have collapsed long ago? I would.

>      4. The Zhodani Consulate reached the edge of the Spinward Marches 1000 
>      years ago and almost definitely contacted the pre-Maghiz Darrians.  

No, _Darrians_ clearly state that the scouts of the two nations didn't 
happen to come across each other during the time that Darrian had jump
technology.

>          
>      The Vilani were very quick to join the Third Imperium, although it 
>      meant being a 'junior partner', with status nowhere near that of the 
>      *Ziru Sirka*. 
>      The Vilani are a highly conservative race, and around Year Zero they
>      have spent over 1000 years in a state of emergency: fighting Vargr 
>      corsairs

A 1000 year old emergency isn't one. It may be a balance of terror, but
obviously the Vilani can live with their Vargr neighbours (since they
_have_ lived with them and survived ;-) 

>      (some armed with alarmingly high-tech weaponry, possibly of Zhodani 
>      origin); 

I don't think higher-than-usual tech weaponry would make it through 20
links into the hands of any neighbours of Vland. Assuming for purposes
of argument that the Zhodani would sell high-tech weapons to neighbours
who are liable to use them against themselves -- a very iffy proposition
to start with -- those Vargr would use them to raid and conquer _their_
neighbours. Why trade when you can take? (And remember, there are no
criminals among the Zhodani. If the Consulate dosen't want weapons sold
to Vargr neighbours, there are no enterprising private individuals to
run guns).

>      the perfidious Zhodani known to be lurking *somewhere* behind the 
>      Great Rift; and the land-ravenous and warlike Aslan rumoured to have 
>      crossed the Rift as well. 

I refer to my previous argument about rumours. They would be only a few
true rumours among scores of false ones and they would be no more likely
to be believed just because they happened to be true.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #519
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 520

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Cleon and the Marches
         2. Auction Update 5
         3. Re: Generating spacestations
         4. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         5. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         6. Re: Cleon and the Marches 
         7. Re: Probability
         8. Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
         9. (Fwd) Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #501
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #505
        12. All the Probabilities
        13. Re: More Probabilities
        14. The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        15. Re: Cleon and the Marches
        16. Trent's Task System
        17. Re: Playing to win
        18. Re: Female PC's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:08:06 +0100
Subject: Cleon and the Marches

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au said...

>Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut 
>up for good? 

Yes, I'm interested and no, please don't shut up!!  The Traveller history is
the most interesting thing about the game, although I find the gaps and
implausibilities exasperating.

Most exasperating gap: big holes in the history of Terra.

Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love the idea
of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more scientifically thought out.

Jamie


------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:55:45 -0400
Subject: Auction Update 5

The results of the auction as of 09OCT96, 11:00am EST						
						
						
1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir	$5.00	stormhvn@inreach.com				
						
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril	$5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
						
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	$4.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague	$6.00	douglas@point.com				
 						
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention 	$6.00	douglas@point.com				
 						
6.  Book 8: Robots	$20.00	balcom@dayton.net				
 						
7.  JTAS No. 5	$13.00	sennafan@rust.net				
 						
8.  JTAS No. 6	$6.00	ewatters@queens-belfast.ac.uk				
 						
9.  JTAS No.7 	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
10. JTAS No.7	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
11.  JTAS No.11	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
12.  JTAS No. 12	$5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani 	$20.00	mark@dk-online.dk				
 						
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	$8.00	sennafan@rust.net				

16.  101 Vehicles	$12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit 	$8.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
18.  Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook	$23.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 	
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	$9.00  anonymous1				
 						
20.  Far Traveller No. 1 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
21.  High Passage No. 2  	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
22.  High Passage No. 3	$15.00	jlockett@io.com				
 						
23.  High Passage No. 4 	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
24.  High Passage No. 5 	$12.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed. 	$10.00	goldendj@usa.net				
 


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:19:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Generating spacestations

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> 
> The thread about starbases has given me an idea on doing a QSDS like 
> system to design space statins, starports, orbital instalations and the like.
> 
> Here is some ground rules, mainly to see what the responce is like.
> 
> 1. FFS shal form the bases of the system.
> 2. It should be compatable with QSDS,SDSS and SCDS.

This is a given, we want to be T4 compatible.

> 3. It will cover technolagy usable for the NAH ie batteries, solar power, 
>    MHD et al ( as well as non G-compensator gravity sources like spin 
>    habitats)
> 4. Brings back the astroid and buffered astroid from High Guard, with 
>    different variations (ie expanded and escavated astroids) 
> 5. It should be simple, but detailed (no complex formula's, tables or 
>    ratio's based on 1 displacement ton (14m^3).

Rather than a whole new system, it seems like you can achieve these
results by simply adding to the tables for the starship construction
system(s).  

for example; Asteroid and buffered asteroid are just new "hull materials"
with a very big factor for hull material volume.  Other additions would be
additional life support options, "shipyard" sized small craft/subcraft
bays, fractional G thrusters/drives, etc.

> 6. We should be able to allw people to acurately map an instalation.
> 

Again, in what way that is different from the ship design systems (which
allow you to figure the volume of each component)?

> The emphasis here is details to allow a GM to define a space station or 
> whatever in TRAVELLER TERMS. Designs should b based on "hey , that is a 
> cool idea, what would it look like in Traveller" and not "Sh*t, I cant 
> put those fighter bays in, And what about the damn generators.."
> 

Space stations, orbital facilities, etc are basically large ships without
(major) drives.  Each facility is going to have it's own purpose which
determines what the major portion of the volume of the facility is taken
up by.  An ore processing facility, for example, will have the majority of
its interior devoted to ore refining equipment and ore/material transport
equipment.

What's needed then, is instructions and table additions for components of
orbital facilities to add to the starship construction tables.  

> Reality testing could be compared with Mir, Freedom, Spacelab, The Death 
> Star and an O'neal colony (al la Babylon 5 and Gundam 0083).
> 

Lets stick to real-world examples, which are TL7 or so. 

> Do you feel that there is a need for this system? Should it be under NAH 
> or would you like to see it as a quick and dirty system like QSDS?
> 

I think its a great idea, as an add-on.

(way too big sig snipped)

Pete


------------------------------

From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:38:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Actually, they would be Homo Erectus in the 300K bp time frame. 

Guy Wilson

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Jamie Young wrote:

> 
> Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
> allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
> source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
> eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love the idea
> of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more scientifically thought out.
> 
> Jamie
> 
> 


------------------------------

From: Derek Dees <fenris@solon.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:56:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Michael, 

No, please don't stop. I've not played traveller in years (even managed to completely miss
MT) and one of the more frustrating bits about pulling out the black books, TNE, 
and T4 is that I'm missing a unified time line. 

What you're providing is a time line with historical context, something that I've looked
for for a long time. My BA is in history (don't ask why I'm a UNIX admin) and once I 
grew out of the munchkin phase, I started trying to place my campaigns in a context. The
lack of this, and the lack of time/inclination to build one from scratch is one reason
I've been gone from the Traveller Universe.

Hopefully, I've not missed any pieces of the postings. I will offer, however, to put
the entry up on my WWW pages if somebody has not already. I've unfortunately not had 
the time in the last couple of weeks to read it carefully and post in reply. 


Derek
fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris

No .sig today, come back tomorrow, maybe one will come in.



Michael Barry typed

<snip>
>      
>      Comments? Reactions? *Any* response to any of my posts? 
>      I'm starting to feel like a late-night radio DJ here. Surely this list 
>      can't be entirely made up of lurkers, statisticians and religious 
>      fundamentalists. :]
>      Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut 
>      up for good? 
> 


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 12:31:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches 

I think there are a few controversial findings indicating that 
early Homo sapiens may go back about 900K.  Can't remember for
sure, though.

Earl


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:39:25 +0100
Subject: Re: Probability

     
Declan Freeney wrote:
     
     [snip]
     If any one is interested.
     
     Probability of One 6:   n/6 (5/6^n-1) (where n=3Dnumber of rolls)
     
Thanks Declan.  Is that really (5/(6^n))-1) or did you mean ((5/6)^(n-1)) 
or some other combination?

Proot!
Liam

- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Robert Gatliff <rgatliff@io.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:24:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

>Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
>
>What percentage chance of success to you think each skill level should have
>for each task level?

Here's my two bits:
                                        Highly
             Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert    My
              (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)     Suggestion
 -----------+-------------------------------------------  ----------
 Easy       | 66.67   100.00   100.00   100.00   100.00    1.5 D
 Average    | 41.67    83.33    97.22    97.22    97.22    2 D    SF= 2.78%
 Difficult  |  9.26    37.50    74.07    91.20    92.59    3 D    SF= 7.41%
 Formidable |  1.16     9.72    33.56    65.05    83.33    4 D    SF=13.19%
 Staggering |  0.08     1.62     9.80    30.39    57.46    5 D    SF=19.62%
 Impossible |  0.01-    0.18     1.97     9.65    27.46    6 D    SF=26.32%

                                                     *SF - Spectacular Failure

Using the same setup, a super geek would have:

              Super
               Geek
               (21)   
 -----------+--------
 Easy       | 100.00  
 Average    |  97.22  
 Difficult  |  92.59   
 Formidable |  86.81   
 Staggering |  75.15   
 Impossible |  50.68   


Using an approach that I've seen in fuzzy logic liturature, you could apply
half die modifier based on an adjative:  Nearly= -0.5D and Very= +0.5D

  Nearly Difficult     2.5 D
  Very Difficult       3.5 D
  Very Formidable      4.5 D
  Nearly Impossible    5.5 D
  Really Impossible    12  D    :-)





------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:11:15 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510

Forwarded message:
From:     Self <sdollar>
To: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510
Reply-to: sdollar@goodnet.com
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:06:25 -0800

On  8 Oct 96 at 15:17, Glenn Grant spewed:

> Thanks for confirming my suspicions. And here I was prepared for all
> sorts of tales of psychotic gamers...

I'm a neurotic gamer...  Does that count???  :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 18:12 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #501

In-Reply-To: <9610071323.AA08096@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: my idea of fun
> > 
> > *Anti*-social? It's about as social as you can get.
> > 
> > Depends on the player. Some would always play males, but most tried
> > female at least once. Say an average of 1 PC in 5 would be female.
> > 
> >     ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
> > Andrew M J Boulton                http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> >  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
> 
> Andrew, are you an ex-pat New Zealander or did you just visit New 
> Zealand at some time? 

Err...neither. I know a Kiwi, though.

> BTW who are you quoting in your signature? Its not the Fat Controller 
> from that Will Self book, is it?

Only if he's quoting the Rolling Stones as well.

> Are the female characters that are sometimes played by your players of 
> the Emma Peel or Nikita variety that has been mentioned already on this 
> list?

The majority tend to be 'Rambo in a dress' types. Not all, though - there 
was a tech and a medic in an Aftermath game who were more subtle.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 18:13 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #505

In-Reply-To: <9610072112.AA09610@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches
> 
> Cleon had the vargr coreward--who wants to deal with the flakey vargr 
> when you are starting an empire?  That type of contact can ruin a 
> perfectly good empire from the inside out.  

Maybe he was trying to out-flank the Vargr (or stop them doing it to him)?

> From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> Subject: Re: female characters
> 
> Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> > pistol called the 'Baretta Legionaire'. I have to admit she was modelled
> > somewhat from the character in the French movie 'Nikita' or in the
> > American re-make 'The Assasin'.
> 
> The American remake starred Bridgette Fonda, IIRC, but the title was not 
"The Assassin." 

Oh yes it was.

[Checks _Halliwell's_]

Oh no it wasn't. Hmm...seems the US title was _Point of No Return_. Whatever 
you want to call it, the original was better.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:21:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: All the Probabilities

Here's a couple of tables I worked up for my own use.  I thought I'd post 
'em in case some folks haven't already seen this information.

The first is a table of the probability of rolling each target number, 
disregarding any roll with two sixes in it.

The second table is the chance of rolling X or less, and it is based on 
the first table (thus, any roll with two sixes is treated as failure).


           4      3.5        3      2.5        2      1.5
      2 0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   2.7778   5.5556
      3 0.0000   0.0000   0.4630   0.9259   5.5556  11.1111
      4 0.0772   0.1543   1.3889   2.7778   8.3333  16.6667
      5 0.3086   0.6173   2.7778   5.5556  11.1111  16.6667
      6 0.7716   1.5432   4.6296   8.3333  13.8889  16.6667
      7 1.5432   2.9321   6.9444  11.1111  16.6667  16.6667
      8 2.7006   4.7840   9.7222  13.8889  13.8889  11.1111
      9 4.3210   7.0988  11.5741  14.8148  11.1111   5.5556
     10 6.1728   9.4136  12.5000  13.8889   8.3333   0.0000
     11 8.0247  11.2654  12.5000  11.1111   5.5556   0.0000
     12 9.6451  12.1914  11.5741   8.3333   0.0000   0.0000
     13 10.8025 12.1914   8.3333   4.6296   0.0000   0.0000
     14 10.8025 10.8025   5.5556   1.8519   0.0000   0.0000
     15 9.8765   8.4877   3.2407   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     16 8.2562   5.7099   1.3889   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     17 6.1728   3.3951   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     18 3.8580   1.5432   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     19 2.1605   0.4630   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     20 1.0031   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     21 0.3086   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     22 0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     23 0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000
     24 0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000   0.0000


           4      3.5        3      2.5        2      1.5
     2-   0.00     0.00     0.00     0.00     2.78     5.56
     3-   0.00     0.00     0.46     0.93     8.33    16.67
     4-   0.08     0.15     1.85     3.70    16.67    33.33
     5-   0.39     0.77     4.63     9.26    27.78    50.00
     6-   1.16     2.31     9.26    17.59    41.67    66.67
     7-   2.70     5.25    16.20    28.70    58.33    83.33
     8-   5.40    10.03    25.93    42.59    72.22    94.44
     9-   9.72    17.13    37.50    57.41    83.33   100.00
     10- 15.90    26.54    50.00    71.30    91.67   100.00
     11- 23.92    37.81    62.50    82.41    97.22   100.00
     12- 33.56    50.00    74.07    90.74    97.22   100.00
     13- 44.37    62.19    82.41    95.37    97.22   100.00
     14- 55.17    72.99    87.96    97.22    97.22   100.00
     15- 65.05    81.48    91.20    97.22    97.22   100.00
     16- 73.30    87.19    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     17- 79.48    90.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     18- 83.33    92.13    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     19- 85.49    92.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     20- 86.50    92.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     21- 86.81    92.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     22- 86.81    92.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     23- 86.81    92.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00
     24- 86.81    92.59    92.59    97.22    97.22   100.00



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:31:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:

> Most of the replies I got at the time were that they preferred the more 
> "heroic" feel of having the better chance to hit.  I seem to remember this 
> view was shared by a certain, well known atari owning, microsoft-free 
> 80's-ophile ;-).  I bet you eat corn-dogs too :-) :-).

What, I'm not allowed to change my mind? :)


> It's great to see this stuff on the list.  I was mulling over lowering the 
> effect of stats myself, and I now see that all the work has been done by 
> someone else :-).

Well, if you come up with another plan for tasks, please let me know!

I still haven't found a method that I think is perfect.  The idea of 
getting rid of the half dies and using 1.5/2/3/4/5/6 dice is appealing, 
though.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:54:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

I've got the solution to the problem.  It involves no division or 
subtraction of attribute values, and it comes up with some pretty darned 
good probabilities.

Ready?

Here are the dice to roll...

EASY          AUTO*
AVERAGE       2D6
DIFFICULT     2D8
FORMIDABLE    2D10
STAGGERING    2D12
IMPOSSIBLE    2D20

* Roll 1D10 if default skill use


Now, isn't that easy? :)  Easy to remember, easy to use.  Gets rid of the 
1/2 dice.  No complex mathematics required.

Who could ask for anything more? :)

Oh, you want to stick with the canon....well, fine! :P

Next!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:51:03 MST7
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

>Comments? Reactions? *Any* response to any of my posts? 
>I'm starting to feel like a late-night radio DJ here. Surely this list 
>can't be entirely made up of lurkers, statisticians and religious 
>fundamentalists. :]

	No, Michael, you've just run into the 'really good post' syndrome. 
It's happened to everyone who has posted stuff to this list. You work 
your a** off putting something really cool together, post it, and it 
vanishes without a trace.

	More often than not, it's because the people see it, go 'COOL!!' and 
it's sucked from the mail inbox to their files and/or notebooks.

	It's only the bad, controversial, or the posts where numbers can be
tossed about, (or rocks ;-) that generate the huge volume of traffic
on this list.  I've personally posted the occasional 'huge thing'
and seen it drop without a trace; some people send me a private
note, saying, essentially: "Cool!" and that's it.


>Is *anybody* interested in discussing Traveller history, or should I shut up
>for good? 

	Part of the problem, absent input from Marc or anyone at IG, we 
don't know what "Imperial History" is going to be; witness the Core 
Map in the T4 manual that has people in an uproar.

	Another part of the problem, at least in my case, is that I'm 
usually several miles from my reference material when I read this, 
and many points of canon 'history' turn on obscure references in 
things like the MT Players Encyclopedia, old TNS posts from JTAS and 
Challenge, or Survival Margin. so I can't often comment. Another is 
that early history of the imperium also turns on only a few lines in these 
sources...you just posted what is known about the reign of Cleon I.

	But, part what you're saying does make a great deal of sense, and would 
account for the rapid assimilation of Vilani space into the Imperium 
for protection from the Vargr.

	Less likely is the influence of the Zhodani, the Daryen, (and even 
less likely) the influence of Ancient sites in the Marches.  I doubt, 
in fact (not knowing the origin of devices like black and white 
globes, though) that any Ancient device has ever advanced Imperial 
technology. Every time I've seen them mentioned they're always 
incrutable, usually wildly dangerous devices:

	" Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!"

	POOF

	"Hey! Where'd Joe go?"

	In fact, I've never seen the appeal of the Marches to the Imperium, 
(as opposed, of course to PC's), since they're off on the other side 
of the nearly impossible to cross Rift, dicing it out with two large 
empires (Zho's and Aslan), they're deficient in heavy metals, etc. 
etc.

	Aside from being the setting of 'canon' Traveller until TNE, I don't 
see why the Imperium pushed there at all, especially considering that 
it was STILL a frontier 1100 years later! Why not push rimward and 
antispinward instead?  The Julian Protectorate stopped coreward 
expansion, but what about rimward?  I can't see that the K'Kree would 
have stopped the Imperium from heading 'east' too much; as someone 
said, the sheer amount of metal they have to haul around in their 
ships makes them inferior opponents, fleet for fleet.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
(520) 626-7379
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


Institutions tend not to have opinions, merely customs.

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:10:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Trent's Task System

Hi Trent.

>From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
>Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 00:37:04 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

>P.S. (In which I sound off on a topic about which I have no factual knowledge)
>    I don't have the statistical savvy to figure out probabilities with
>more than 2D, but it seems that the proposed method of Easy= 1D, Avg= 2D,
>Diff= 3D, Form= 4D, etc would kill two birds with one stone by making the
>success rates seem more reasonable (and more consistent with MT) and also
>get rid of those weird 1/2D rolls.  Am I missing some obvious drawback here?

You think like me. That is the system I use. (I never liked those D3's
anyway, difficult and needless.) And I have some statistical savvy. So
here goes...

Avg=2D, Diff=3D, Form=4D, Stag=5D, Imp=6D.
Numbers are rounded to the nearest percent.

target	 avg	diff	form	stag	 imp	7 dice	8 dice
- ------
2	  03	  00	  00	  00	  00	  00	  00
3	  08	  01	  00	  00	  00	  00	  00
4	  16	  02	  00	  00	  00	  00	  00
5	  27	  05	  00	  00	  00	  00	  00
6	  41	  09	  01	  00	  00	  00	  00
7	  58	  16	  03	  00	  00	  00	  00
8	  72	  26	  05	  01	  00	  00	  00
9	  83	  37	  10	  02	  00	  00	  00
10	  92	  50	  16	  03	  01	  00	  00
11	  97	  62	  24	  06	  01	  00	  00
12	  97	  74	  34	  10	  02	  00	  00
13	  97	  82	  44	  15	  04	  01	  00
14	  97	  88	  55	  22	  06	  01	  00
15	  97	  91	  65	  30	  10	  02	  00
16	  97	  93	  73	  39	  15	  04	  01
17	  97	  93	  79	  49	  21	  06	  01
18	  97	  93	  83	  58	  28	  09	  02
19	  97	  93	  86	  65	  35	  13	  04
20	  97	  93	  87	  71	  43	  18	  06
21	  97	  93	  87	  75	  51	  24	  09
22	  97	  93	  87	  78	  58	  31	  12
23	  97	  93	  87	  79	  63	  38	  17
24	  97	  93	  87	  80	  67	  45	  22
25	  97	  93	  87	  80	  70	  51	  28



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:25:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Playing to win

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > 
> > Winning is a personal thing.  I've been up against people I *know* I can't
> > beat, but I can still *win*..if I redefine winning.  <g> Sometimes winning
> > is just giving your opponent hell, and surviving to do it another day.
> 
> Yep. I've found the #1 rule in any competition whether it's chess,
> tennis, or starship combat is: Never Do What Your Opponent Expects
> You To Do.

  Absolutely - that's one of the reasons I'm a confirmed ace in StarFleet
Battles, Air Superiority, and Real Jets(tm).

  If are always one step ahead of the enemy, they'll be REacting; not
ACTING. This gives you the initiative, and given enough luck a win.
(Assuming roughly comparable forces, of course - taking a scout against a
BB is _still_ suicide ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:29:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Female PC's

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Robert Flammang wrote:
> 
> ("Hey man, if you didn't want me to play a woman, you could have just
> asked me not to!")
> 
> My next character was a serial killer who preyed on rapists.

  Sounds like my remake of a David Gemmel character, the Jerusalem man...

"You have two choices, live or die."

"The bellows are burned, the land is consumed of the fire, the founder
melteth in vain, for the wicked are not plucked away" <pointing gun>

=:-)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 521

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Icerigger
         2. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         3. Re: Probability
         4. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         5. Re: More Probabilities
         6. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         7. Blasphemous Probability Chart
         8. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         9. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        10. Re: Non-detailed worlds
        11. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        12. Re: Oh no, not DIE HARD IX ?!
        13. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        14. Re: Year 5 language
        15. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        16. Milieu 0 Outline

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Nassise <rockrat@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 09:26:53 -0700
Subject: Icerigger

I have been lurking on this list for several months, just getting used to 
the dicussions.  I noticed a few days ago that several suggestions had 
been made by others concerning novels they thought echoed the 
Traveller-type universe.  I thought I might add my own two cents.

The Icerigger trilogy (Icerigger, Mission to Moulikan, and The Deluge 
Drivers) are an excellent source of material.  They cncern the 
adventurers of several Imperial citizens who blunder into a botched 
kidnapping job aboard an Imperial liner and end up stranded in the 
outback of a barely settled artic world.  I converted the first book into 
a two month campaign under the original Traveller rules and my players 
loved it.

The Forbidden Borders series by Michael Gear is another that I feel would 
translate excellently into a Traveller campaign.  It has just the right 
mix of exploration, ground combat, and fleet maneuvers to satisfy a 
diverse group of players.

If anyone else has run adventures based on these works I would be 
interested in hearing about them.

Joe Nassise
AKA   Captain Jake Montressi, RCES


------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:46:55 -0700
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Here are the dice to roll...
>
>EASY          AUTO*
>AVERAGE       2D6
>DIFFICULT     2D8
>FORMIDABLE    2D10
>STAGGERING    2D12
>IMPOSSIBLE    2D20
>
>* Roll 1D10 if default skill use
>
>
>Now, isn't that easy? :)  Easy to remember, easy to use.  Gets rid of the 
>1/2 dice.  No complex mathematics required.
>
>Who could ask for anything more? :)

Actually I could.  :)
What's missing here is two things:
	1) How do you handle spectacular failure?  Spectacular success is
	easy, two 1's.  But how do you handle the increasing chance of
	spectacular failure?

	2) Many people have commented on how much the T4 system gives
	an advantage to good stats.  This doesn't address that issue
	at all.

And, the bonus reason:
	non-D6 in Traveller?!?!?!?  It's just not DONE.  
	<sounds of a teacup crashing to the floor>
	:)

Douglas

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Probability

    Declan Feeney responded to my comments about Probabilities:

    Yes 26% seems like a pretty high chance of a Spectacular failure, but 
these tasks are supposed to be Impossible, right?  26% auto-fail, even for
someone with super-skills, seems more reasonable to my tastes than 75%+
success rates!
    As of right now, I'm throwing my support (for what it's worth) behind 
the "whole-die" system, which seems to give pretty good results based on
the numbers I've seen posted.
    As for the imbalance of stats to skills, I consider that to be an
entirely different matter, and i didn't want to confuse the two issues.  As
a CT/MT player I'd like for skills to count more, but remember that in TNE
we had more or less the same sort of situation as we do now.  As far as
giving skill-points their due, the "4+ half-stat+ skill" system seems 
pretty fair except that I find that "mystical" 4 extremely aesthetically
unpleasing; almost a throw-back to the CT "mystical 8".
     Although it involves some unpleasant (at least for me) in-game maths,
the "fix" (which I use in quotes 'cause it's not really "broken", it's just
not my style) I like best of what I've seen so far is the 1/2 stat + 2 skill
which, for mid-range numbers, will give similar results, but shifts the
emphasis back to where I think it belongs.
     Perhaps in future editions of T4, IG can include a paragraph or two
about such "Task System Options" (like they did with the multiple Initiative
rules) allowing individual refs to customize their games.  The "more 
difficult" rolls could be an option, and so could the "skill-focused" 
system. Now we all just need to agree as to what is the best way to achieve
these effects.

Keep up the good work, stat-guys!

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:07:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Michael.Barry wrote:

>     Why did Cleon push out to the Spinward Marches so quickly? Take a 
>selective look at the timeline: 
     
(wonderful material snipped)

Thanks for the interesting discussion, i think you have made an excellent 
case as to why Cleon expanded towards the Marches so rapidly.

This does bring into question the confusion that is common about the Long 
Night.

TNE is about the post-virus era.  Except for the Regency, the whole of 
the Imperium, and all of its neighbors except the Hivers, have been totally 
trashed.  99% of worlds are pre-spaceflight and many are pre-industrial.

The Long Night/Year 0 is (thankfully) not like this at all.  Sylea has 
been an active force in space for the last 650 years, The Zhodani and 
Vargr have been fine, and even the Vilani have been somewhat active 
(Vland, and a few other Vilani worlds never lost starflight), and the 
Solomani were settling Gateway Sector during the Long Night.

Even at its worst, in the early years, The Long Night looked like the Hard 
Times Era, not the post-Virus era.  Sure, lots of isolated, vacuum world
colonies died, economies collapsed, many worlds lost starflight, but the 
collapse was basically economic.  Fully habitable industrial worlds would 
have been able to recover fairly rapidly.  

it seems clear that The Long Night is a time of much commerce, trade,
piracy and other interstellar activity.  The difference is that there is
nothing resembling a central government.  If you travel 20 parsecs in any
direction you may well have passed through two trading federations and a
bunch of unclaimed worlds and ended up orbiting a world more likely to
seize your ship that to trade with you.  Raiding and piracy would be
common except in systems held by the more powerful worlds (who may well be
sending out pirates of their own). 

The true wonder of Year 0 campaigns is going out into other sectors and
either helping to bring word of a new Imperium to the various factions, or
to go trading with folks beyond the fringe of the Imperium, who will be
known to you (and you to them) only though rumor and middlemen. 

You have a setting in some ways similar to the era of Marco Polo's travels
to Cathay:  Various kingdoms, both large and small linked together by
fragile trade networks, with distant kingdoms being linked only by
middlemen and legend.  An exciting time to say the least. As part of this,
Cleon has heard legends and reports of the Spinward Marches, and is
seeking to explore and conquer this legendary region, full of Ancient
ruins other surprises. 

However, the bit in T4 about part of the Core subsector being unexplored
is simply silly.  The Sylean Federation has existed for 650 years, it
doesn't take that 1/10th that long to explore an entire subsector. 

Anyway, thanks for the informative post.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:06:52 -0500
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

Liam McCauley wrote:
> 
> Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
>      [big snip]
> 
>      Perhaps if we could shift the whole table over by 3 points, it would
>      make more sense.

Trying to shift the table by 3 points would be a pain...but we could
shift everything up by 1d3 and have just about the same effect. 
Personally, I'd like to see if we can come up with a way of dropping the
d3's entirely...but you probably remember that. <g>

Possiblities...
				Current	 Full Die  Full Die
		Current		+ 1/2d*	   One	     Two*
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic	-NA-	  	1.5d	   -NA-	     1d6
Easy 		1.5d	  	2d6	   1d6	     2d6
Average 	2d	  	2.5d6	   2d6       3d6
Difficult 	2.5d	  	3d6	   3d6       4d6
Formidable 	3d	  	3.5d6	   4d6       5d6
Staggering 	3.5d	  	4d6        5d6       6d6
Impossible 	4d	  	4.5d6      6d6       7d6**

* I added another lower level task, but that could be dropped if people
don't like the idea of *really* easy tasks. <g>  Automatic tasks would
be automatic for everyone except the unskilled using their bare
Attribute.

** If you go with this approach you might want to find a way to raise
the target numbers somewhat on the high end. I suggest doing it by using
a multiple of the Skill Level.  I've got some ideas on that I'll post
later.
 
> I started a thread a week or so ago, saying that the to-hit chances in
> combat were too high and could be made more realistic by increasing
> difficulties by 1 or 2 levels (which is similar to changing the target
> number by 3 points).
 
> Most of the replies I got at the time were that they preferred the more
> "heroic" feel of having the better chance to hit.

I like a "heroic" feel sometimes and a "realistic" feel other times. 
I'd like to see the design of the task system be broad enough to
accomidate either. It really should be broad enough so that I can use
the higher levels for the harder (realistic) feel and easier task levels
for times (and games) where I want the heroic feel.

Eris


------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:07:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> WARNING to all who read this...
> 
>         I am about to attack cannon.  I know that I am risking all
> credibility as a Traveller referee, but this is something that I have
> given  a lot of thought to.

Except for the it being "canon" I'm completely with you! <g>

> To lay all of my cards out on the table--I just don't buy the
> one-week-in-jump-no-matter-what-the-jump-number-is rule.

You aren't alone. There are quite a few of us that don't use the
"one-week-in-jump-no-matter-what" method.  
 
> I believe that, when comparing ships capable of Jump-1 and Jump-5, the
> Jump-5 ship should not only be able to jump farther, but it should also
> be able to make a 1 parsec jump in 20% the time it takes the other ship.

I don't go that far, but I do reduce the time in Jmp space for advanced
drives. I want the length of time in JSpace to still be several days,
because I *really* like the slow communication/transportation feel of
Traveller.  I also want the time in JSpace to be variable for gaming
purposes.  Over the years I developed the following formula....

   ((160-(Jump#-1)*15)+3d6)hrs

This gives the following hours in JSpace...

Jump 1	160 hrs + 3d6 [163-178]
Jump 2	145 hrs + 3d6 [148-163]
Jump 3	130 hrs + 3d6 [133-148]
Jump 4	115 hrs + 3d6 [118-133]
Jump 5	100 hrs + 3d6 [103-118]
Jump 6	 85 hrs + 3d6 [ 88-103]

If you have a squadron of ships then the "Master Astrogator" makes the
jump calculation and the ships jump as a group.   

I also allow ships to be constructed or modified to be "Jump# Plus"
ships.  This means they have better sensors, controls, jump grids,
coils, and powerplants than normal ship's of that Jump number, but not
quite up to the next Jump rating. A "Jump Plus" ship can *attempt* a
jump one level higher than their normal rating, but there are a series
of Formidable tasks the crew has to pass: the Engineer has to make a
"Coil Tuning" task; the Pilot has to make a "Piloting" task; and the
Astrogator has to make a "Astrogation" task. If any of the tasks fail
then a Jump Error occurs, this could be a misjump, hardware failure, or
the ship just remains where it was with the lose of fuel. BTW, Jump+
ships stay in JSpace longer too, 
foex: a Jump 1+ ship attempting a Jump 2 would still take 163-178 hours
to make the jump. (Honestly, I might make the tasks Staggering or
Impossible with T4 tasks just to make them hard enough. <g>)

> So there it is--my blasphamous thought.

If your thought be blasphamy, then bring on the demons! <g>
 
> Either throw stones, or join the dark side--we'll rule the galaxy
> together!
 
> (afraid to sign)
> Kenneth.

Don't be afraid!  There is a large community of heritics out here, and
we wear our horns proudly. <g>

Eris


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:29:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Blasphemous Probability Chart

Here's the target number probability chart for my polyhedral-using, 
blasphemous task system:

     2D20    2D12     2D10      2D8      2D6     1D10
2-    0.25     0.69     1.00     1.56     2.78    10.00
3-    0.75     2.08     3.00     4.69     8.33    20.00
4-    1.50     4.17     6.00     9.38    16.67    30.00
5-    2.50     6.94    10.00    15.63    27.78    40.00
6-    3.75    10.42    15.00    23.44    41.67    50.00
7-    5.25    14.58    21.00    32.81    58.33    60.00
8-    7.00    19.44    28.00    43.75    72.22    70.00
9-    9.00    25.00    36.00    56.25    83.33    80.00
10-  11.25    31.25    45.00    67.19    91.67    90.00
11-  13.75    38.19    55.00    76.56    97.22   100.00
12-  16.50    45.83    64.00    84.38    97.22   100.00
13-  19.50    54.17    72.00    90.63    97.22   100.00
14-  22.75    61.81    79.00    95.31    97.22   100.00
15-  26.25    68.75    85.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
16-  30.00    75.00    90.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
17-  34.00    80.56    94.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
18-  38.25    85.42    97.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
19-  42.75    89.58    99.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
20-  47.50    93.06    99.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
21-  52.50    95.83    99.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
22-  57.25    97.92    99.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
23-  61.75    99.31    99.00    98.44    97.22   100.00
24-  66.00    99.31    99.00    98.44    97.22   100.00


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:32:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Douglas McCorison wrote:

> >Who could ask for anything more? :)
> 
> Actually I could.  :)
> What's missing here is two things:
> 	1) How do you handle spectacular failure?  Spectacular success is
> 	easy, two 1's.  But how do you handle the increasing chance of
> 	spectacular failure?

CT never had "spectacular failures," so I didn't worry about them.  If 
you like 'em, use a natural roll of 2 as spec. success, and a natural 
roll of the maximum possible for the dice rolled as spec. failure.  I'd 
just say max roll is always a failure, though.


> 	2) Many people have commented on how much the T4 system gives
> 	an advantage to good stats.  This doesn't address that issue
> 	at all.

Right, it doesn't.  I don't mind that aspect...


> And, the bonus reason:
> 	non-D6 in Traveller?!?!?!?  It's just not DONE.  
> 	<sounds of a teacup crashing to the floor>
> 	:)

Yeah, the polyhedral task system was only half serious for that very 
reason.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:37:50 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Moin Kenneth Bearden,

> 	I am about to attack cannon.  I know that I am risking all 
> credibility as a Traveller referee, but this is something that I have 
> given  a lot of thought to.

	I also have to blame us, we are also not using the canon
	week. We are using a slightly diffent aproach :

	The jump takes 7*24*parsec/jumpdrive hours, and you have
	to be very far away from gravity.

	You have to drift exactly in the direction you wanna jump,
	and need to be size*size*10 light seconds away from the
	gravity well.

	So a Jayhawk capable of 24ghours, can spend 10 ghours
	for outbound velocity and an other 10 for inbound and
	can jump at :

		Size	Light Sec	Time to save jump (max 10*1g)
		 0         0             0
		 1	  10		 2
		 2	  40		 4
		 3	  90		 7
		 4	 160		 9
		 5	 250		11
		 6	 360		14
		 7	 490		17
		 8	 640		21
		 9	 810		25
		10	1000		30
		11	1210		31
		12	1440		41

	So a Jayhawk jumping from one parsec from a medium sized
	planet (7) to a large gas giant would make 10 hours thrust
	7 hours drift, 84 hours jump, 31 hours drift and 10 hours
	thrust. So it would take less than a week (168 hours),
	A 2 parsec jump from a huge planet (8) to an asteroid
	belt is a bit crasy as you would need 10 hours thrust
	to get away from the planet, but you'll be dumped directly
	into the asteroid belt with 4 light seconds per hour !

	An also very nice implication of our rule is that you can
	disturb and hinder a ship from jumping away. If you fire on
	it, and it makes evasion, its leaving course, and has to
	get rid of you to get back on course.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:49:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Non-detailed worlds

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> >My take on it is that Marc and the boys wanted to leave a number of worlds
> >open for individual GM's to detail.  I'd say those systems *have* been
> >explored and may (or may not) be part of the Federation. They've just been
> >set aside for us to customize.  That's my take on it anyway.
 
> That is a reasonable idea and if it is correct then I withdraw my critisism.
> Indeed, I think it is an excellent idea to set aside areas as "Refs' only".
> It would also, IMO, be a good idea to tell the Referees about it. ;-)

I don't *know* that my idea is correct, but Marc (and I think Ken too)
mentioned on the list that many systems would be left open to GM
customization.
 
> Then there is the whole question of just how much it is appropiate to leave
> for the individual referees. 

Sure, but the galaxy is a *big* place. There should be room for both
pre-generated and customized systems.

>One of the strong points of an official setting...is to help the referee by providing him >with more background material than he can manage to create on his own. A careful balance >must be struck. Leave too much open and a referee might just as well create his own campaign >setting and use the official stuff as plug-ins.

True.  There should be some core systems well detailed, here and there,
but I'm personally not a "canonist", I heavily modify the settings
anyway. I want detailed background material, but I want it in a generic
format so I *can* transplant it to my campaign when I want to.

>         No, I'm wrong. There is one other point to an official setting: To
> make fan-created material easier to use by other fans.

I don't see the problem here.  If you post a system/world description
for XYZ, I can plug it in anywhere in my universe.  It gets just a
little more complicated with multiple system scenerios, but only just a
little.  

Eris


------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:50:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say
> that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?

BTW	By the way
IMHO	In my humble opinion
IMNSHO	In my not so humble opinion
OTOH	On the other hand
foex	for example
IAC	In any case
LOL	Laughing out loud
ROTF	Rolling on the floor (laughing something or other off <g>)

Just a few of the many acronyms that float around in net-space.
 
> > The main problem I have with this is that I
> > really like the ability to use different stats based on the task at hand,
> > and the math is a bit time consuming.
 
> Again, total agreement.  I also really like the idea of characterisics
> being important to achieving success at a task throw--I just don't like
> them being ALL IMPORTANT.

I'm toying with using the following: Attribute + (Aptitude*Skill) =
Target Number

Aptitude could be a simple number (2 has been suggested), but better for
it to be something that reflects the psychological makeup of the
Character.  I *know* I've moving pretty from from vanilla Traveller with
this. <g>
  
Eris


------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:50:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Oh no, not DIE HARD IX ?!

Simon John Harding wrote:

> With all due respect for those who do design the official adventures for
> Traveller in all its incarnations, I have to say I have never
> intentionally purchased an adventure. The rational was simply
> that my fellow gamers and I felt we had adventures that were either
> organic (steming naturally from an ongoing campaign) or tied in more
> closely with what the players wanted to do. The other side to the
> rational was that there was a distinct possibility that if the referee
> had a copy of the adventure, then so did one of the players. Critical to
> a Traveller adventure is the sense of the unknown and unexpected.

I feel the same way.  I've bought several adventures, but I never run
them "as is." I simply use them as sources of ideas, background material
(like maps, deckplans, NPC), and springboards for the *next* adventure. 
I figure if I can buy the adventure so can my players, and what I want
isn't just a "sense of the unknown and unexpected", but a sense of dread
and forboding! <g>

The perfect Adventure Book, IMO, would *be* a suppliment!  Give me some
worlds, some deckplans, some NPCs, some organizations, some adventure
hooks, and I'll mould them into adventures that fit the players in my
game.

Eris


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:29:46 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> To lay all of my cards out on the table--I just don't buy the 
> one-week-in-jump-no-matter-what-the-jump-number-is rule.
>
> I believe that, when comparing ships capable of Jump-1 and Jump-5, the 
> Jump-5 ship should not only be able to jump farther, but it should also 
> be able to make a 1 parsec jump in 20% the time it takes the other ship. 

This has problems you haven't considered. More on that below.

> I've had many a fun session with PC's on the run, jumping out system by 
> the skin of their teeth, only to find the people chasing them already 
> waiting for them at their next destination.

And this *alone* is a good reason to dump the idea. It screws up the
flavor of the game. It also not only makes piracy *possible*, but
*easy*. I watch you jump out, jump to your destination ahead of you,
and have a day or so to position myself where my best guess readings of
your jump out say you will jump in. Not good.

Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
*seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.

My tracking station with it's huge antenna spots you, beams a message
to a waiting task force and next thing you know, you are surrounded by
ships. Worse, if they can do multiple jumps, they can jump in, acquire
you as a target, fire, and jump out before your return fire gets there.

J-1 ships would be sitting ducks.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:26:44 PST
Subject: Re: Year 5 language

In mail you write:

> stil.  Aftr tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrion
> vud fin it ezi tu understan esh ozer.  Ze drems of ze E.U.  vud finali kum
> tru.

This is stolen from something published around 50 years ago, and then
referring to the US.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Graham Spearing <graham@eldamar.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:15:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In your message dated Monday 7, October 1996 you wrote :

> I believe that, when comparing ships capable of Jump-1 and Jump-5, the 
> Jump-5 ship should not only be able to jump farther, but it should also 
> be able to make a 1 parsec jump in 20% the time it takes the other ship. 

I have always though it should be played this way. I wrote up an article for a 
games magazine called 'Overdrive' that put some gloss on this concept. The 
magazine stopped doing RPG articles shortly afterwards. I think it is more fun.

But then I won't go into my jump variant that involves dozens of light years and 
200 by 200 LY sectors...

Pip pip

- -- 
Graham
_____________________________________________________
| Thespian with Sheffield University Drama Society   |
| Companion of the Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery |
|____________________________________________________|


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:42:17 -0400
Subject: Milieu 0 Outline

This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we think we
want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback about
   A. What you want to see in the book?
   B. What elements in the outline should be expanded?

MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium
The essential background for adventuring in Traveller is provided in a number
of Milieu books, each detailing an era in the long history of mankind in
space. Milieu 0 chronicles the emergence of the Third Imperium from the Long
Night, extending its reach to re-explore and re-conquer the vast interstellar
territories that have been untouched for 1700 years. Covers the early years
of the Third Imperium, its history, structure, economics, and library data.
Also includes many adventure hooks and adds direction to players and
Referees.

FIRST SURVEY
This vital companion to Milieu 0 is an atlas of the 50 or so sectors that
were the Vilani Empire and its surrounding territories. The star systems of
the Sylean Federation are well defined. Farther and farther out, systems are
less well-defined. Each adventuring group determines its own survey results
for each system they visit.
Each page is a map of a single sector; systems are marked, but not defined or
identified except for some specified areas.


Outline:

Introduction (and concept)
History
    1. Antecedents
        a. The last decades of the Long Night
        b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium
    2. Syleas Rise
        a. Economic Pressures
        b. 
    3. Establishment of the Third Imperium
    4. Interactions and Conflicts
       a. Short Wars
       b. Diplomatic Campaigns
       c. Contact Campaigns
       d. Secret Agent Operations
The Expansion Process
    1. Exploration
    2. Contact / ReContact
    3. Trade Overtures
    4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)

The First Wave
    1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
border of the Third Imperium.
    2. Opportunities
        a. Free Traders
       b. Scouts
       c. Mercenaries
       d. Academics
        e. The Man Who Would Be King
    3. Problems
	a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
	b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 

Structure of Organizations
1. Structure of the Sylean Federation
2. Structure of the Third Imperium
3. Structure of the Vilani Homeworlds
4. The MegaCorporations
5. Local Companies
6. AAB Repositories

Library Data
1. Personalities
		a. Cleon (Emperor)
		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to
adventurers)
		c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu
Labs)
		d. Frank Repzinski XVII
		
2. Places
	a. Terra
	b. Vland
	c. The Great Rift
	d. Sylea
	e. Antares
3. Things
		a. AAB (Vilani repository of all knowledge)
		b. Fusion Plus
		c. The Warrant of Restoration (the document that establishes the Third
Imperium)
		d. Scout Cruiser
		
4. Historical Data
5. Maps
a. Sector Map of the Core Sector (allows some exploration without buying
First Survey)
b. Sample World

Rules
	1. Diplomatic Interactions
	2. Player generic Imperials
	3. Playing Vilani


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #521
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 522

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. whatever-space (Was: FFS questions)
         2. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         3. Re: NIKITA
         4. Re: Spectacular Failure
         5. Re: Probabilities and Task Systems
         6. Re: NIKITA
         7. Traveller OFF:  An url for gravity probe B a cool experiement
         8. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
         9. Re: Hail Harold!
        10. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        11. T4 Success Probability Table
        12. Re: Patriot Games
        13. Teenage income
        14. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        15. Re: Imperial Government
        16. RC Worlds: Spires (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: whatever-space (Was: FFS questions)

[My mailserver puked the first time I sent this, so I wasn't sure if]
[it got throught.  I apologize if this is redundant.]

Thus spake Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>:

>         Traveller jumpdrive is oversimplified black-box system, and
>         there is only vague descriptions of the jump space phenomenon.

There actually has been a fair bit of material published concerning 
jumpspace theory (speculative, though it is) and jumpspace phenomenae.  
You just haven't read it, probably.  DGP's "Starship Operator's Handbook" 
(published for MegaTraveller) was, in my opinion, the best resource on this.
 
>         Using FFS, one could assume that jumpspace and subspace are
>         the same thing, and Traveller ships need a also gate drive to
>         enter and exit the subspace. A normal "jump" would thus mean
>         using the ship's build-in gate drive to forma a gate around
>         the ship (jump flash), manoeuvering though subspace using
>         subspace drives, and using the gate drive to enter the normal
>         space (jump flash). As Traveller ships do not have subspace
>         sensors, the whole operation would have to be pre-plotted and
>         carefully timed.

One could make that assumption if they hadn't read FF&S.  In that text, it 
is clearly stated that j-space and subspace are NOT the same thing, 
insofar as the descriptions given for each vary widely.  They are not 
even the same 'technology.'  If they were, why would jump drives be the 
'official' FTL drives in the Imperium setting, while subspace technology 
is an 'alternate' that does not apply to the mainstream Traveller 
setting, but was proposed as something that could be used by referees and 
players desiring a different setting?

It's probably a good thing that subspace technology isn't part of the 
'standard' setting, too.  A large part of Charted Space's history and 
background is shaped by the limited speed of communication over 
interstellar distances (just look at how astrographic separation saved 
the Domain of Deneb -- twice).  The parsecs-per-day travel times afforded 
by the alternate subspace technology for both starships and 
communications would totally disfigure the canonical background, such as 
it is.
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 15:52:55 -0500
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

Joe Walsh wrote:

> > And, the bonus reason:
> >       non-D6 in Traveller?!?!?!?  It's just not DONE.
> >       <sounds of a teacup crashing to the floor>
> >       :)

> Yeah, the polyhedral task system was only half serious for that very
> reason.  :)

HA!  Based on the conversations we've had about "d6" vs "all others", I
*knew* you weren't even "half serious" about this one. <bg>

Here's a general question...

Why do we insist on normal distributions for task rolls, anyway? (And
don't invoke the dreaded canon! <g>) Why don't we just go to straight
percentage rolls?

Eris


------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:15:46 +1300
Subject: Re: NIKITA

>From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:59:02 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: NIKITA
>
<<snip>>
>The American remake with Bridget Fonda is "Point of No Return".
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you sure of this Pete? It was released down-under here in NZ as "The
Assassain". Was an alright movie (not one of the top ten, but watchable)

Just my 0.02Cr's worth.



------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 16:12:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Spectacular Failure

Joe Walsh wrote:

> > Is that right?  I didn't think the D3's counted in figuring
> > spectacular failure, just the D6's.

> Nope, it isn't right.  I didn't have my book with me, and
> mis-remembered.  :(  I corrected that in later posts that night, though.

Ok, just double checking. I didn't have my book with me either. <G>

Eris


------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 15:20:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities and Task Systems

Glenn rolls to avoid being sucked into another task system thread...
Impossible roll against Willpower ...

<clatter> Failed ... (only because I have no Willpower skill :-)

Kenneth Bearden spoke:

> So, you're telling me that just because a character is dextrous, he can 
> be equally skilled in such diverse skills as shooting a gun, picking a 
> lock, piloting a ship, sneaking around undetected, and throwing a 
> grenade?
> 
> Does anybody else have a problem with this?

I don't have a problem with this per se, by definition, someone with a
_skill level of 1_ in those skills should have an equal chance of
success.

I _do_ have a problem with the fact that the average bloke with average
skill has an average chance of succeeding at an impossible task.

What plasters me is the way the monikers don't jibe with the numbers. 

I have been reading with interest the excellent probability charts
posted by Joe Walsh et al. The problem: Probability curve is to flat
going from Average to Impossible for characters with moderate skill
levels.

Here's my solution, simplistic as it may be: Change the Die Formulae.
For instance, for each die or half die used above 2, add 1 to the roll:

Average      2d6
Difficult    2d6+d3+1
Formidable   3d6+1
Staggering   3d6+d3+2
Impossible   4d6+2

Statistitians: Get to Work! What are the probabilities with this? Should
it be add 2 per full die, 1 per half die? Does this knock the prob's out
the window at low skill levels? Am I out to lunch?

The beauty of the system, IMNSHO, is that it requires little math, and
the 2 sixes=bad failure rule is still in effect.

As for the attribute being weighted to heavily, I don't mind. Someone
with very little natural ability (eg. incredibly clumsy) needs to be
_very_ skilled to be as good as the average skilled person - so if he
has a Dex of 2, skill of 6 then his target is 8, the same as someone
with a Dex of 7 and skill of 1. Similarly, the very gifted skilled
person, (Dex of 12+1=13) needs the same target as the average person who
is very skilled (7+6=13) I can accept this. Of course, very skilled
gifted people are gods.

Those who can't accept the ability being weighted to heavily, can use
the above dice formulae with the 4 + (stat/2) + skill target number. If
I were to change my mind and decide stat's weren't as important, that's
the one I'd use :)

- -- Glenn


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 09 Oct 96 17:27:31 EDT
Subject: Re: NIKITA

definitely was Point of No Return in the US. I haven't worked up the stomach to
give it a chance yet....

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 14:41 PDT
Subject: Traveller OFF:  An url for gravity probe B a cool experiement

an interesting experiment to those of you who are interested in Einstein and
gravity
studies, etc.

http://stugyro.stanford.edu/RELATIVITY/GPB/GPBstory1.html
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Suzette Dollar <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 13:11:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

>         I would allow a Con+1/Str-1 for female characters rule,
>         for the physical attributes. But if we increase Cha what
>         mentatal attribute should we decrease. Int or Edu would
>         certainly make womans inferior.
> 
>         I would advise a different rule: Whenever a charisma
>         based task is between a woman and a man increase
>         the assert by one and expect strange situations
>         if the TL+Edu < 10.
> 
> By Michael

I'll buy the con/str idea only because the + to con offsets the - to str, 
but if I were a GM (Stu bears that title), I think I'd opt for a straight -1 
to str and leave it at that.  There is no charisma/empathy attribute in 
Traveller.  Social Standing certainly wouldn't be gender biased.  Int & Edu 
wouldn't be.  Dex/Agil? well, I wouldn't want to even suggest that men 
couldn't have a dex of 15, nor would I suggest that as a rule of thumb women 
are more dextrous than men... my own household not withstanding <g>.

Suz

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:52:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Hail Harold!

Armand Suarez writes:

>Hi, Harold!  It's nice to get noticed by the ones you admire.

   I've never had a fan club.  Please feel free to start one.  :-)

>(Sounds of masking tape being ripped off a mouth...)

   Ouch!  That's gotta hurt....

>Normally I would say "Faith?  No, just the facts.  
>Lack of proof is not proof - facts require proof," 
>but instead I'm going to attempt to be funny and 
>say, "Well then, to be completely fair we'd all have 
>to become agnostics!"

   OK, then I'm sure the world would love to hear the details concerning the
**conclusive** proof you have that God doesn't exist.  I'm sure there is at
least a PhD in Philosophy in it for you.

   Note I said *conclusive*.  Unfortunately for your case, there has been
enough
things that have happened in the last 15+ billion years that still defy a
logical or
scientific explanation so that there is still room for God in the Universe.
 Shooting
down a few paragraphs in Genesis is not the same as conclusive proof, nor is
evidence that Jesus really was just a carpenter's son from Galilee.  The
proof you need may never be available to Mankind--and unless you can obtain
it, you have to conceed the *possibility* of God, regardless of how unlikely
his/her/its existence seems to you.  Your only alternative is to take a leap
of faith similar to the one believer's in God take, and say "I believe that
God doesn't exist."

>You may begin laughing now.  ;-D

   <insert canned laughter from the imaginary studio audience here>

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:01:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Douglas McCorison wrote:

> Hmmm, I think you missed my point.  The T4 Spectacular Failure probability
> gos UP as the task difficulty goes up.  This makes sense to my brain.

Douglas,

Actually, no, I didn't miss your point.  Methinks you have missed MY 
point, which was to propose a ha-ha-only-serious suggestion.....that is 
why the end of my original post said, "Next!" as in, "Next suggestion!" 
(a reference to the exclamation supposedly used by casting directors 
when they find that a person who is auditioning does not measure up).

Sheesh.  Next time I post something like that, to avoid confusion, I'll 
include: THIS IS A JOKE! 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:08:19 -0500
Subject: T4 Success Probability Table

Here's a complete table for T4 Success Probabilities.

Dice Code (DC) across the top, Target Number (TN) down the side, and
numbers for Spectacular Success (SS) and Spectacular Failure (SF)
across the bottom.

TN   1.5D    2D  2.5D    3D  3.5D    4D
==  ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
 2    5.6   2.8
 3   16.7   8.3   0.9   0.5

 4   33.3  16.7   3.7   1.9   0.2   0.1
 5   50.0  27.8   9.3   4.6   0.8   0.4
 6   66.7  41.7  17.6   9.3   2.3   1.2

 7   83.3  58.3  28.7  16.2   5.2   2.7
 8   94.4  72.2  42.6  25.9  10.0   5.4
 9  100.0  83.3  57.4  37.5  17.1   9.7

10         91.7  71.3  50.0  26.5  15.9
11         97.2  82.4  62.5  37.8  23.9
12               90.7  74.1  50.0  33.6

13               95.4  82.4  62.2  44.4
14               97.2  88.0  73.0  55.2
15                     91.2  81.5  65.0

16                     92.6  87.2  73.3
17                           90.6  79.5
18                           92.1  83.3

19                           92.6  85.5
20                                 86.5
21                                 86.8
==  ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====
SS    5.6   2.8   0.9   0.5   0.2   0.1
SF    0.0   2.8   2.8   7.4   7.4  13.2

I hope you find the table useful.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Sep 1996 17:21:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Patriot Games

>Didn't follow the Charles and Di show back then . . . too busy gaming. ;) I
agree 
>with what you're saying. Then again, given the clumbsiness with which TC
portrays 
>relationships, the action scenes were good enough that readers may not have
noticed.

Well, he managed to get the workings of Buckingham Palace wrong.  But I
imagine only a Brit would spot that.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 11:10:23 GMT
Subject: Teenage income

>teenagers/students don't have high disposable  income, guys!

Actually, teenagers (and young adults) have a _higher_ disposable income than
most adults.  Why?  Because many live at home and pay no room and board.

I have students that earn hundreds of dollars a month, and spend it all. 
They spend more on games than I could afford to, even before I got a
mortgage!

Not saying that cost isn't important, but age-population demographics contain
a lot of surprises!

------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:17:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > I've had many a fun session with PC's on the run, jumping out system by
> > the skin of their teeth, only to find the people chasing them already
> > waiting for them at their next destination.
 
> And this *alone* is a good reason to dump the idea. It screws up the
> flavor of the game. It also not only makes piracy *possible*, but
> *easy*. I watch you jump out, jump to your destination ahead of you,
> and have a day or so to position myself where my best guess readings of
> your jump out say you will jump in. Not good.

Or good!  Depending on whether you want this kind of thing to be
possible or not. <g>
 
> Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
> parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
> *seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
> diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.

You are making two assumptions here.  

First, that one ship can tell where another ship is jumping to.  If you
want to follow a ship jumping out in one of my games you have a big
problem..that ship could be jumping to any system in it's range, and you
have no way of knowing which one.  A pursueing force has to spread out,
covering all possible systems...and that can quickly become a
*dangerous* task. <g>

Second, that you can make "short haul" jumps.  In my games, a ship has
to be over 200 stellar diameters out to jump, and it can leave jump only
within 2 stellar diameters.   I don't allow any of this jumping into a
system within "spitting" distance of a planet. If you want to get to a
planet you have to *travel* through the system.  If you want to jump
again, then you have to tranverse most of the inner system first.

See Leonard, once you toss out canon on one thing you can toss it on
several.  You just need to think it out and be *internally* consistent.
<g>

Eris


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Sep 1996 17:27:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Imperial Government

In my universe, the Imperial Resident stays at Government House, often in
attached quarters.  This takes care of small worlds (and provides a source of
employment for retired Imperial Army Majors).

As the population increases, the Resident may be replaced with a Legate, an
Ambasador, a Consul, or several other titles.  I've kept it deliberately
vague, as befits a system that grows piecemeal.  Some Residents are actually
more powerful than some Ambassadors (and if you are anyone in Imperial
government, you know who they are).

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 96 18:38:28 -0400
Subject: RC Worlds: Spires (Long)

 Hi,
One of the players in my RC Campaign is from the planet Spires, and he
came up with idea of what the planet is like.  I took his ideas and
added a few here and there and twisted his ideas a bit and came up with
this document.  
I was interested in hearing what other people thought about it.  I know
Derek Stanley and others have pcs or Npcs from Spires.  I am sure they
have different thoughts on the planet, but I was hoping we could
combine our different ideas into one unified vision.  Or at least talk
about the differences. 

For those not using the RC, you could file off the serial numbers and
spit this out as a planet in Miliue Zero, maybe. 

Lewis
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spires  E894789-2
          Size: Large : D=12,800km              Atmosphere: Dense Tainted
          Hydrographics: 40%                    Population: 40 million
          Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level: High
          Tech Level: 2 (Circa 1600)            Star port:  Frontier

World Description:
	Spires is a very new planet, only a few primitive plants had evolved 
by -1385 when the planet was colonized.  The Second Imperium seeded the 
planet with modified versions of Terran plants and animals.  These species 
were genetically engineered to better survive in the dense atmosphere.  
	Spires is mostly land, with 4 small seas, and dozens of large lakes 
scattered about.  There is the High Sea, near the north pole, Two Middle 
Seas, called the Upper Middle Sea, and the Lower Middle Sea and a Low Sea 
near the southern pole.  These seas are fresh water and are the only 
significant area where native species survive. 
    The planet currently is in an age of extreme vulcanism, with hundreds of
active volcanos. Earthquakes are also common. The volcanos spew tons of 
rock and ash into the air tainting the atmosphere.  Visitors often remark 
about the smell of the place, the volcanos also spew sulfur compounds into 
the air, giving the entire planet the aroma of rotten eggs.  This volcanism
has also created a great deal of obsidian, with which the populace turns 
into many different types of tools.
	Most Spiri live around the Middle Seas, but Spiri have explored their 
entire planet. Spiri who seek isolation have settled in the far reaches of 
the planet.  The area around the Middle Seas is temperate plains, excellent 
for farming.

History:
	Spires was colonized during the Rule of Man, by settlers from Terra 
itself. During the Long Night, their civilization collapsed and they 
regressed to a very primitive state. Since then their technological 
development has been hampered by the fact that there are very few workable 
metal deposits, and that the planet lacks fossil fuels.  When the planet was
discovered by the expanding Third Imperium, it was interdicted.  The Scout 
Service thought the planet was an interesting anthropology setup, and wanted
to observe it develop.  When the Dawn League surveyed the system they 
discovered the primitive Spiri. Unlike the Imperium the Dawn League didn't 
think humans made "interesting experiments" and they contacted the Spiri.  
The Spiri were delighted to find out that other humans existed; all 
knowledge of Terra and the Rule of Man had become the basis for myths and 
legends.  The Spiri were quick to join the Dawn League and many individuals
wanted to help explore the stars.

Government:
	Spires is governed by the Guilds, the Guilds were set up millenia ago, 
as a way to regulated trade.  Since then they have grown in power and in 
scope. They now regulate almost all aspects of life.  The Guilds have grown
into a sizable, bureaucracy.  It can take several months for news and 
information to travel from one side of the planet to the other, because of 
this the Guilds are slow to react to unexpected problems.  
    To help solve this problem, every 10 years, the finest men and women 
come to Yuko, the capital of Spires, There they compete in the Contest of 
Champions.   The Contest of Champions is a series of races, 
athletic competitions, and mental puzzles.  The winner is made Archon, or 
supreme ruler of Spires.  The Archon is the nominal head of the Guilds, but
has little to do with day to day business, but when a decision needs to be
made, instead of forming a committee, the Archon decides.  He is kept up to
date on issues, by a council of advisors.  The council is made up of the
other top contestants in the Contest.  The Archons from previous years 
wander the planet as roving problem solvers. 

Culture:
	Most Spiri are very spiritual, and spiritual matters are given 
considerable thought.  All Spiri are given a basic education.  This 
education usually lasts 5 years. It concentrates on teaching students basic 
mathematics, and how to read and write.  A small amount of history and 
rhetoric are also taught.  The ability to think for oneself is instilled in 
all children at an early age.  The education starts at age 5, by the time 
the students turn 10, they are needed to work in the fields.  

	The population of Spiri lives in many small villages, and a few large 
cities of several hundred thousand. Agriculture is the primary industry of 
the villages. Each of the small villages shares a common religious or 
spiritual belief.  Religion on Spires is very sectarian, when an 
irreconcilable disagreement over a spiritual matter arise, the solution, 
usually involves the minority leaving the community and setting up a new
village somewhere else.  Off world anthropologists suggest that this also 
helps alleviate population pressure.

	The cities are much more metropolitan, they began as small towns on 
important trade routes.  Thousands of people eventually came to live and to
prosper as merchants.  The mixing of people of many different faiths, 
created some conflict, but for the most part, the Spiri are nonviolent when 
it comes to Spiritual matters.  To help insure that disagreements remain 
non-violent, the Guild has prohibited the carrying of weapons.  

	In the capital of Yuko, the Guilds have formed a center for higher 
learning, the Academy of Higher Thought.  Here the best and the brightest 
Spiri are educated. Children who have excelled in the basic education are 
sent to the Academy to learn more.  The Academy develops both the mind and 
the body.  Students are taught philosophy, history, logic, mathematics and 
what science the Spiri know. The body is developed through athletics and 
through the martial arts. Many Contest winners have received an education
here.	 
 
Society:
	The Spiri are a very spiritual people.  They follow many different
creeds and beliefs, but the most common is a version of Plato's idea of
forms, mutated through 5000 years of history.  The basic principle of the 
theory of forms states that for all objects there exists on another plane,
the perfect form of that object. When one person says "chair," another knows
what the first means, even though they might be thinking of another variety
of chair.  It is because they both have a common language that "chairness"
implies the same sort of object. A form, then is an extra-planar perfect
definition.

    As to the radical variant of Platonic thought, it refers specifically
to some of the conclusions of The Republic. There, Plato argued that the 
perfect form of government would be a benevolent dictatorship. Now, this 
obviously is in conflict with the nature of the Spiri.  Therefore, the 
Spiri accept Plato's Theory of Forms, his Rhetoric Style, and the Socratic 
Method, but reject the benevolent dictatorship.

    The Spiri view psionics as the ability to work on the Plane of Forms. 
They might view the benevolent dictatorship as possible of the Plane of 
Forms, but not in a flawed universe with flawed people. They would argue 
that a philosopher-king, even if he understood the Form of the Good, would 
be tainted by an imperfect universe.

	The Spiri believe that Plato was Philosopher King of the ancient 
civilization of Atlantis.  The Atlantis myth is a myth of mystically 
powerful people who, for a while, brought much good. Later, they became 
despotic. The exact location of Atlantis is quite disputed, most Spiri
believe that Atlantis is on the mythical home of the Spiri, Earth.  Others
believe that the Spiri were always on Spires, and that Atlantis is hiding 
somewhere on the planet.  These Spiri have set off on many great quests to
find Atlantis.  

	Once Spires joined the Reformation Coalition, it learned the truth,
that Earth is not Atlantis, but people, technologically advanced people, 
but people none the less. This event has precipitated a spiritual crisis on 
Spires and some religions would have ended, or become more fundamental in 
their denial of reality. There are a number of cults which deny that Earth 
is the mythical Atlantis and would go off in search of the true
Atlantians.  			 

Spires only had a fragment of the Dialogues of Plato.  The copies that they
did have have been copied and recopied, translated and retranslated over the 
millenia, the result is quite different than the originals.  Now that the 
planet has contact with other planets, it is able to get copies that are 
closer to the originals.  Many people have expressed an interest in reading
the "new" dialogues, and the Academy has bought many copies from off world
publishers and is distributing them across the country.  They are also sending
wandering teachers, to discuss the significance of the new writings.  Other
cults deny the new "rediscovered dialogues" and consider them false. The 
Academy is viewed by these people as either, in the best case, misguided, 
and in the worst, heretics.

Psi and the Spiri
    The presence of psi among the Spiri is rare, and a trait which is
passed in a matrilinear fashion, but only manifests itself in males of
the Spiri. The families which possessed this trait quickly became
important, and in a manner of speaking, the local gentry. Not that
there are any classes among the Spiri, but the families possessing this
trait came to be the mediators of disputes. The pursuit of psi powers
among the Spiri has led to almost a cessation of aggressive tendencies
and an almost fanatical devotion to development of the mind and
philosophy. This focus on the development of the mind and the body has led
to the Great Houses leading an aestic lifestyle, and they tend to have few
children.  So, despite there power, the Psi among the Spiri do not often 
hold important posts in the government or bureaucracy, although they are
usually treated with a certain degree of deference by all.

	The Great Houses of the Spiri believe that the psi ability originated
among citizens of the long fabled Lost Continent of Atlantis. Their
philosophical leanings are a radical variant of Platonic thought. The
technology level is low by choice. While they accept the theories
of forms, the reject the benevolent dictator on empirical grounds:
there never has been one. Rather, they favor individual freedoms above
all else and most of the government is geared towards protecting
individual freedoms {6}.

	They are aware of the fear (and possibly hatred) that many outworlders
feel towards individuals possessing psionic abilities. They are therefore 
careful in their use of it - only using it when necessary and for good.   
Other Spiri know about, but do not understand their abilities, but the Great 
Houses leave them alone, so they return the favor.  Some intellectuals have 
tried to research psionics.  The Great Houses don't mind this, every person 
much pursue his own destiny, and possibly an non-psionic will have insights 
that a psionic individual would not.

      The Spiri believe that outworlders place too much emphasis on 
technology and not enough on development of the mind. They fear the 
Oriflammi and their Centrist policies as it could change the very nature of 
Spiri Society. As such, they ally themselves very closely with the 
Federalists, and quietly enjoy the actions of those among Helios.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #522
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 523

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
         2. Re: Generating spacestations
         3. Traveller odds and ends auction.
         4. Re: Teenage income
         5. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         6. Re: Skills and Doing the Impossible
         7. Re: More Probabilities
         8. T4 History vs. what has gone before 
         9. Re: Probability
        10. Re: To:  Declan Feeney
        11. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        12. Re: Probabilities..An Idea
        13. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        14. Re: Mileau 0 Outline
        15. Re: More Probability Stuff (REALLY LONG)
        16. Vilani Government in the Year 0
        17. Re: More Probabilities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:41:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

Suzette Dollar wrote:
> 
> >         I would allow a Con+1/Str-1 for female characters rule,
> >         for the physical attributes. But if we increase Cha what
> >         mentatal attribute should we decrease. Int or Edu would
> >         certainly make womans inferior.

> I'll buy the con/str idea only because the + to con offsets the - to str,
> but if I were a GM (Stu bears that title), I think I'd opt for a straight -1
> to str and leave it at that.  

I don't think there's any reason to even do a gender based -1 on STR. 
OK, on average, a human female of today tends to be a little less strong
than a human male, but that's just ON AVERAGE. <G> 

> There is no charisma/empathy attribute in  Traveller.  

True, not in T4, but there was in TNE. <G>  I think charisma or presence
*should* come into play somehow..and not as a skill either.

> Social Standing certainly wouldn't be gender biased.

That depends on the society. <G>  There certainly *could* be societies
where gender makes a difference in social standing.  Hopefully, not the
Federation or Imperial society.

> Int & Edu wouldn't be.  

NO! Not in humans!

> Dex/Agil? well, I wouldn't want to even suggest that men couldn't have a dex of 15, nor would I > suggest that as a rule of thumb women are more dextrous than men... my own household not > withstanding <g>.

Well...maybe. <g>  Women *are*, on average, a little better at fine
moter skills..threading a needle foex <g>.., and, on average, are a
little more flexible.  Men and women match up pretty well in agility
(gross motor skills) and balance.

Frankly, I suspect it's just better to not make *any* gender adjustments
and let the randomness take care of it.

Eris


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:51:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Generating spacestations

Darryl Adams wrote:
> 
> The thread about starbases has given me an idea on doing a QSDS like
> system to design space statins, starports, orbital instalations and the like.

> 
> Do you feel that there is a need for this system? Should it be under NAH
> or would you like to see it as a quick and dirty system like QSDS?
> 

Darryl,

I like both systems.  I think both have their place.  I always ask myself 
how much work is needed. If I didn't plan on the character's being around 
the station for too long, but I need some description, I'd use a QSDS 
type system.  If the station was the character's base, the adventure 
included the station, or I had a string of adventures that frequently 
included the station, I'd use a NAH system if it was available.

That takes us back to your first question--does anybody have a use for 
it.

I know that I would print it out and keep it for when I needed it.

My policy is:  If you build it, they will come.

Looking forward to seeing it,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Traveller odds and ends auction.

Hello. Cleaning some more items out and am ready to auction them off.
All items are in fine to excellent condition unless otherwise noted. 
This auction runs until Oct. 16th - one week only.
Please make bids in no less than $1.00 increments.
Updates will be posted every other day.
Items will be held for one week only, no excuses - period.
Shipping and postage is $3.00 for first item, .50 for each item thereafter.
Items bought by persons outside the USA will be sent via surface mail only.
Payment by money order only please. Outside the USA, please pay via 
International Money Order only. 
Thanks! :)

Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
Steve Jackson Games


Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
Steve Jackson Games


Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
Steve Jackson Games


The Flaming Eye - Campaign Sourcebook
DGP


Traveller Alien Module #8: Darrians
GDW


The Traveller Adventure
GDW


Alien Realms - Eight Excursions Beyond Human Space
GDW


Challenge Magazine #25
GDW


Traveller Chronicle #4
SotK


Traveller Chronicle #5
SotK


Traveller Chronicle #6
SotK


Traveller Chronicle #7
SotK


Traveller Chronicle #8
SotK


Traveller Chronicle #9
SotK


Other Stuff:

Laserburn - Sci.Fi. Combat Rules
Tabletop Games


2300AD: S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans (Shrink wrapped)
GDW


Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"



That's it :)
Paul


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:01:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Teenage income

On 1 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Actually, teenagers (and young adults) have a _higher_ disposable income than
> most adults.  Why?  Because many live at home and pay no room and board.

Until very recently, I've had a smaller disposable income during my adult 
life than I did as a teenager.  Pitiful, idn't it? 

> I have students that earn hundreds of dollars a month, and spend it all. 
> They spend more on games than I could afford to, even before I got a
> mortgage!

No mortgage here, yet....I want to enjoy having more money to spend than 
I did when  had a paper route for a while longer yet. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:58:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> See Leonard, once you toss out canon on one thing you can toss it on
> several.  You just need to think it out and be *internally* consistent.
> <g>

I don't like your ideas, because if we do what you say, what use will all 
of our canonical/published materials be?  I spent a lot of money on that 
stuff, and I don't want you invalidating it all!  

Grin....


- -Joe, who is still working on his punch-lines...
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:05:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Skills and Doing the Impossible

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> What fun is it for anybody if the main character of a story ALWAYS kicks 
> the heck out of the bad guy, ALWAYS is the best at everything he does, 
> and ALWAYS wins the scenario?  Drama is conflict, and nobody enjoys shows 
> or books with these types of characters.

Your point is well taken, but as someone else said recently, we have to 
keep in mind that the bad guys have the same advantages as the PCs do 
with regards to the task system.


> There has to be risk.  There has to be challange.  And, I believe in all 
> good stories/series/books, the main character sometimes fails. 

Yup.  The tricky part is making the challenge be at the right level.  I'm 
hoping Eris' survey will turn up something in this regard.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:09:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> For a minuite there, I thought we were in disagreement.

Oh, we probably are on the details [G], but I think in general we're in 
agreement. :)

BTW, have you seen anything/thought of anything that you like yet, in 
terms of a "fix" to the task system?


> P.S.  So, what is your beef with Microsoft, anyway?

Uh...well, they're the Evil Empire.  What other reason do I need? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:34:43 -0400
Subject: T4 History vs. what has gone before 

        In an attempt to figure out how the history of the Imperium is going
to look in T4, I made the following discoveries while comparing the
"timeline" given in the Foundations of Traveller essay in the front of the
book to the timeline of history given in the Imperial Encyclopedia for
MegaTraveller. It should be noted that these dates are in the Terran dating
system; with some exceptions, the IMPERIAL dates don't change. For instance,
the Rebellion starts in Year 1116 on both timelines; the Terran DATE
corresponding to that year is what changes. When you see a "+" in the
difference column, that means the T4 date is EARLIER than the MT date; when
you see a "-", it means the T4 date occurs AFTER the date given in MT.

EVENT                   New Date        Old Date        Difference
Vilani Era begins       4700 BC         4717 BC         +17
Vilani Era ends         2300 AD         2314 AD         +14
Terran Conf. begins     2100 AD         2120 AD         +20
Terran Conf. ends       2300 AD         2314 AD         +14
Rule of Man begins      2300 AD         2314 AD         +14
Rule of Man ends        2750 AD         2742 AD         -8
Long Night begins       2750 AD         2742 AD         -8
Long Night ends         4500 AD         ?               ?
Third Imperium begins   4521 AD         4518 AD         -3
Third Imperium ends     5637 AD         5634 AD (?)     -3
Aslan Border Wars begin 3400 AD         3400 AD         0
Aslan Border Wars end   4900 AD         ?               ?
Vargr Campagns begin    4700 AD         4728 AD         +28
Vargr Campaigns end     4900 AD         4866 AD         -34
Barracks Emperors begin 5100 AD         5122 AD         +22
Barracks Emperors end   5140 AD         5140 AD         0
Rebellion begins        5637 AD         5634 AD         -3
Rebellion ends          5651 AD (?)     5648 AD (?)     -3
Virus Era begins        5651 AD (?)     5648 AD (?)     -3
RC begins               5722 AD (?)     5719 AD (?)     -3
Regency begins          5653 AD (?)     5651 AD (?)     -3

dates marked with (?) are speculative. Dates marked with ? are unknown.

I was quite surprised at the variation in some of these dates. Obviously, we
don't know why this variation exists. Purely speculative, but here are some
ideas why;

1.) Legal reasons. This doesn't seem likely, since Marc supposedly owns the
rights to all the Traveller stuff. (I certainly wouldn't license anyone to
produce products for my game unless I retained rights to use it.)

2.) Lack of reference material; in other words, the folks at IG don't own a
copy of the Imperial Encyclopedia. Is this likely?

3.) A desire to assert control over the Traveller universe and say "this is
my game; 
it will be made according to MY vision of how and when things occured."

What do you guys think?
                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:10:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Probability

Declan Feeney wrote:
> 
> Yeah, If you increase the number of Dice you increase the probability of
> a Spectacular Failure. The Impossible Roll (6D under your system), now has
> a 26.32% chance of resulting in spectacular failure!!!
> 
> I personally don't have a problem with this - If they are going to attempt the
> improssible they should expect spectacularly bad results - but some people
> might not be happy.
> 
> I'm more concerned that your suggestion doesn't affect the heavy influence
> stats have on the outcome.
> 

> >      Also, for what it's worth, I don't think of the T4 task system so much as
> >  being BROKEN as much as just not (as it currently stands) suited to my
> >  personal tastes.
> 
> I'm inclined to agree. I think the system just needs balancing, which will
> probably just take trial and error. If it can be made to work its simplicity
> will make it stand out as a superb system.
> 
> By the way, a peice of advice for anyone unhappy with halving d6s. Blank
> d6s are available from Buffalo Games - You can just write the numbers 1-3
> on one twice, and get round all arguements as to which is the half die.
> 


Nice post, Declan!

I'm busy collecting data from all of you and my own personal insights 
trying to come up with the perfect fix to the T4 system.

Like you, I like the MT system.  This is what I used as my house system 
before T4 came out (MT task system--my take on TNE detailed rules).

I am very attracted to the grace and ease afforded to the T4 system.  If 
we can down play the role of the attributes, with them still having a 
measurable impact on the throw, and the probabilities come out looking 
good, then I know we will have a superior system.

I've got to find a solution somewhat fast, my next game is Sunday after 
next.

Thanks again for the thoughtful post,

Kenneth.

PS  Hmmm.  Declan.  I like the name--sounds like a vilani noble.  Lord 
Declan.  I'm going to have to put that in my campaign.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:16:05 -0700
Subject: Re: To:  Declan Feeney

Declan Feeney wrote:
 
> As for the (Skill x2) + Stat system, hold with me and I'll have some stats up
> by tomorrow. I will warn you however, from a few play trials, the Spec.
> Failures can occur MUCH more frequently.
> 

Hmmm.  You're right.  I hadn't gotten that far with it yet.  I wasn't 
even considering spec. success or spec. failure, and I didn't plan to 
until I got the ground work for a system that I liked.  You know, one 
thing at a time.

Maybe we can play around with what constitutes spec. success and spec. 
failure.  I've always been inclined to thinkthat they both should have an 
equal probability, which is definitely not the case in T4.

Well, back to the work shop.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:30:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:42:17 -0400
>Subject: Milieu 0 Outline

First of all, thanks Mark for sharing this with us.  Hee hee, you have a
knack for giving us just enough to peak interest, and at the perfect time,
too. :)

This info really rebuilt my interest in T4.  Since I am running a Milieu 0
eMail campaign, this info is really tantalizing to me.  Now for some comments

>Introduction (and concept)
>History
>    1. Antecedents
>        a. The last decades of the Long Night
>        b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium
>    2. Syleas Rise
>        a. Economic Pressures

Suggestions:
         b. Military Pressures - With the return of men to space, and the
re-beginning of interstellar trade, the return of piracy would eventually
occur as well.  In addition, many small Leagues and Confederations would
form, not all friendly.  Out of fear of pirace and fear of hostile take
over, many world, IMO, would have been eager to join the Federation.

>    3. Establishment of the Third Imperium

Suggestions:
         a. Racial Pressures - The Sylean Federation, as I understand it, is
made up of both Solomani and Vilani.  As the Federation grew, the people
(both S & V) would come to learn that members of their Empire were still out
there.  For different reasons, both races would be interested in the
reestablishment of their Empires.  I could see this as providing some
intense presure on the Grand Senate of the Federation.
         b. Political Pressure - The pressure of governing many worlds is
difficult when under the control of body like the Senate.  Whne a situation
arises, you have to get the word back to the Senate, then the discussions
start, finally a decision is reached, and the message is transported back to
the originating party.  For simple issues, this is a moot point, but for
issues that can be viewed in a variety of ways, this problem is magnified.
Also, with the Racial Problems mentioned above, the discussions may be even
longer.  Under a central leader, there is little or no discussion, only
advisement.
         c. Cleon's Ambition - Very little has been said thus far in our
discussions on the list as to whether Cleon is acting for the benefit of
humanity, or on his own selfish ambitions.  In either case, his goals and
desires were probably a very big part of the establishing of the Imperium.

<<<...snippage...>>>
>The Expansion Process
>    1. Exploration
>    2. Contact / ReContact

Suggestion:
These may need to be seperated.  The tactics might be different for these
similar actions.

>    3. Trade Overtures
>    4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)
>
>The First Wave
>    1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
>border of the Third Imperium.
>    2. Opportunities
>        a. Free Traders
>       b. Scouts

Suggestion:
     In my campaign, the characters are members of the Diplomatic Corps, a
subdivision of the SSS, Sylean Scout Service


More comments later.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:30:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Probabilities..An Idea

>From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
>Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:50:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
>
>I'm toying with using the following: Attribute + (Aptitude*Skill) =
>Target Number
>
>Aptitude could be a simple number (2 has been suggested), but better for
>it to be something that reflects the psychological makeup of the
>Character.  I *know* I've moving pretty from from vanilla Traveller with
>this. <g>

This has great potential.  I'm working on Official To Hit Tables for 1D6 to
6D6, and I'm interested in using that along with the aptitude idea to create
a somewhat advanced task system.  A while back, when we were talking about
the skills themselves, some folks were talking about the problem with
general skills and the lack of specifics.  This is the place for aptitudes!!
A specific number could be used to make the system useable directly, but the
idea would be to use the formula Eris posted above as a base and set the
aptitude for the specific division of the generality.

For example, let's just say that the base number is 2.  Someone taking a
skill in Medical, for example, would get a level of 2 in Medical:Surgery,
but only a 1 in Medical:Pharmacology, and a 1 in Medical:General, and a 0 in
Medical:Nursing.  (If the numbers are off, forgive me, I'm not a doctor. :)
Then with each additional skill level taken in Medical, the player could
apply it to any of the specific divisions.

I will work on this and see what I come up with.  If anyone has ideas about
the specifics for any of the skills on the list, please send 'em my way. :)


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:30:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

>Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
>parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
>*seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
>diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.

Well, I know how against hand waving everyone is, but since Jump Dirve
itself is hand waving, you could easily avoid this problem by saying that
Jump covers a minimum of 1 Parsec.

Also, while I agree that the potential of a Jump in 20% of the time creates
trouble for trade and information in the canon universe, I think this idea
has merit for a non-canon universe.


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:35:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Mileau 0 Outline

>This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we think we
>want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback about
>   A. What you want to see in the book?
>   B. What elements in the outline should be expanded?
>Outline:
>
>Introduction (and concept)
>History
>    1. Antecedents
>        a. The last decades of the Long Night
>        b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium
>    2. Syleas Rise
>        a. Economic Pressures
>        b. 
        For "b", how about Political Pressures?

>    3. Establishment of the Third Imperium
>    4. Interactions and Conflicts
>       a. Short Wars
>       b. Diplomatic Campaigns
>       c. Contact Campaigns
>       d. Secret Agent Operations
>The Expansion Process
>    1. Exploration
>    2. Contact / ReContact
>    3. Trade Overtures
>    4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)
>
>The First Wave
>    1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
>border of the Third Imperium.
>    2. Opportunities
>        a. Free Traders
>       b. Scouts
>       c. Mercenaries
>       d. Academics
>        e. The Man Who Would Be King
>    3. Problems
>	a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
>	b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 

This is an interesting idea, that Vilani elements opposed the establishment
of the Imperium. Another interesting subject to examine; what role did
knowledge recovered or left over from the First and Second Imperiums play in
the decisions on where to explore?

>Structure of Organizations
>1. Structure of the Sylean Federation
>2. Structure of the Third Imperium
>3. Structure of the Vilani Homeworlds
>4. The MegaCorporations
>5. Local Companies
>6. AAB Repositories

>Library Data
>1. Personalities
>		a. Cleon (Emperor)
>		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives >assignments to
adventurers)
>		c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the >Zhunastu Labs)
>		d. Frank Repzinski XVII

Who?
		
>2. Places
>	a. Terra
>	b. Vland
>	c. The Great Rift
>	d. Sylea
>	e. Antares
>3. Things
>		a. AAB (Vilani repository of all knowledge)
>		b. Fusion Plus
>		c. The Warrant of Restoration (the document that establishes the >Third
Imperium)
>		d. Scout Cruiser
>		
>4. Historical Data
>5. Maps
>a. Sector Map of the Core Sector (allows some exploration without buying
>First Survey)
        Thank you!
>b. Sample World
>
>Rules
>	1. Diplomatic Interactions
>	2. Player generic Imperials
>	3. Playing Vilani

If possible, the idea of an extended Vilani lifespan should be maintained,
although perhaps not as long as in DGP's Vilani and Vargr.

I'm looking forward to this book.


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:34:25 -0700
Subject: Re: More Probability Stuff (REALLY LONG)

Paul Walker wrote:
 I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I think we are taking the 
wrong
> approach getting so involved with the percentages and all.  Yes, it is an
> interesting case study, but what we need to focus on is how to get the "to
> hit" number to a reasonable position.  Look at this table to see what I mean...

> This definitely reduces the effect (or is it affect) that Attribute has on
> the to hit number.  I like this method the best, but I don't know if it is best.

> Now for the lower Attribute number, it causes problems.  The plus 4 tends to
> make failure much less likely.   Hmmm, well, this is just more wood for the
> fire, I don't have a definite answer yet, but I am working on it.


You've hit the nail on the head.  Looking at the target number is an 
easier way than comparing all the percentages.  We can run a percentage 
table to check our work later.

I'll tell you, Paul, you can referee me anytime.  And believe me, I 
don't say that lightly.  I'm always the ref around here (in my gaming 
group) because none of them GMs to the level that I expect.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 9 Oct 96 14:09:23 MS
Subject: Vilani Government in the Year 0

Robert Flammang asks:
>One question tho. How were the Vilani organised in this period? I assume
>they didn't have an effective interstellar government, otherwise Sylea
>would have joined them, and not vice versa. 

I figure that the top hierarchy of the Vilani Empire was removed by the Rule of 
Man.  You would have lots of "district managers" still around at the planetary 
level, though, and they would continue running things at the planetary lvel 
even after the Rule of Man folded (or, they would continue acting as the 
bureaucracy/power brokers for the Terran ruling class on the occupied worlds).  
The Vilani ultraconservatism in regards to social/political change would make 
it very hard for one of these "district managers" to claim to be the successor 
chief of one of the bureaux, or of the Vilani Empire, so the region would 
likely be filled with lots of small polities and alliances; very balkanized on 
a stellar scale.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:57:54 -0700
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

Liam McCauley wrote:
  I seem to remember this
> view was shared by a certain, well known atari owning, microsoft-free
> 80's-ophile ;-).  I bet you eat corn-dogs too :-) :-).

LOL!  Liam.
 
> It's great to see this stuff on the list.  I was mulling over lowering the
> effect of stats myself, and I now see that all the work has been done by
> someone else :-).

I agree whole-heartedly, Liam.  There is a definite problem with the T4 
task system.  I can't imagine what IG was thinking, or even if they 
worked out the probs themselves when they publised the book.  What was 
this stuff about "backed by 20 years of game design experience" anyway.

I love Traveller, but I also have more problems with Traveller game 
mechanics than I do with any other game.  

Anyway, I think that there are many people out there that that feel the 
way we do.  The silent majority on this list, and the many others that 
aren't on this list, but at home discovering for themselves through game 
play that there are definite problems with the T4 task system.

Just for the record, to let you know where I stand on the "heroic" PCs, 
when I roll up a character with a player, I say Str, and he rolls two 
dice.  That one result is the character's starting Str.  Then I say Dex, 
and the player rolls his two dice.  The player can attempt to improve his 
abilities by rolling on the appropriate chart when he earns a skill (at 
the expense of gaining a skill, of course).

We've got a character in our game now with a Str of 2.  The player didn't 
improve it through character creation.  Did the player bitch--his only 
character with a Str of 2?  No.  We role played it into the situation.

The character is now quite cool.  He's the ship's doctor, and he's got 
this incurable disease that eats away his muscle tissue.  He uses a 
specially built grav chair when he's off ship with the others.  There's a 
special compartment built into the back of the chair, just above the 
grav plates, where he can store equipment.  The chair has a handy 
computer with an uplink to the ship, and there is a plug for his laser 
pistol--so the weapon can run right off the chair's power plant.

This guy has turned out so much more fun to play than if he would have 
had a 15 Str.  The player is doing a great job with him.

And because he is beating the odds by succeeding not only in the 
obsticals that I'm throwing at the group, but by over coming his Str 
handicap as well, this, to me, makes him that much more heroic.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #523
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 9 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 524

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Web Mail Acronyms
         2. POOF indeed
         3. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         4. Transplanted Hominids
         5. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         6. Time Traveller
         7. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         8. In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
         9. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        10. Re: Auction Update 5
        11. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        12. Re: POOF indeed
        13. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        14. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        15. Re: Milieu 0 Outline

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:01:15 -0700
Subject: Web Mail Acronyms

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
 
> OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say
> that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?

BTW - By the way,
IMHO - In my humble opinion
IMNHO, IMNSHO - In my not (so) humble opinion
IIRC - If I recall correctly,
LOL - Lots (loads) of laughs (I think)
ROFLMAO - Rolling on the floor, laughing my a.. off

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 9 Oct 96 15:59:08 MS
Subject: POOF indeed

Bruce Johnson said:
> " Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!"
>
> POOF
>
> "Hey! Where'd Joe go?"

Hah!  I'll bet Joe Walsh isn't gonna like _this_ roleplay example.  

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:25:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

>This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we think we
>want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback about
>   A. What you want to see in the book?
>   B. What elements in the outline should be expanded?

Marc, thanks for sharing this information with us...I'm continuly impressed
by yours and IG's consumer service abilities.

>    1. Antecedents
>        a. The last decades of the Long Night
>        b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium

- - the general psyche of the people during this era.  They've been unexposed
to interstellar cutlure for hundreds of years, and if this issue could be
addresses it'd be excellent.  Building upon the TNE entry on the Wilds would
probably be a start.  

>    2. Syleas Rise
>        a. Economic Pressures

- - causes and such that make Sylea a better interstellar government than any
that spring up as well (assuming Sylea is not the only one)
 
>    3. Establishment of the Third Imperium

- - the official proclamation\consitution that was presented for discussion to
TML a while back would be great here.

>    4. Interactions and Conflicts
>       a. Short Wars
>       b. Diplomatic Campaigns
>       c. Contact Campaigns
>       d. Secret Agent Operations

- - lots of adventure hooks, and even a full adventure set using a military
campaign.  Many people like to do those types of campaign, and this setting
would definitely lend itself to that.

>The Expansion Process
>    1. Exploration
>    2. Contact / ReContact
>    3. Trade Overtures
>    4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)

- - this section should also focus on how the expansion process will effect
player-characters adventuring in this setting.  From things I've heard on
this list, a lot of people are planning on\running scout style campaigns...I
know I am.  Therefore, this will be a very important item in the book.

>The First Wave
>    1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
>border of the Third Imperium.

- - differences in how these worlds are dealt with depending on which side of
the border they fall, especially concerning trading, and governmental
practices that the Imperium does not condone.

>    2. Opportunities
>        a. Free Traders
>       b. Scouts
>       c. Mercenaries
>       d. Academics
>        e. The Man Who Would Be King

- - all these would be excellent to contain adventure hooks.

>    3. Problems
>	a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
>	b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 

- - again, adventure hooks stuck in here would work.  Something about the
whole Vilani position on the 3I as well.


>		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to
>adventurers)

- - This guy sounds like someone who could turn out to be an extremely
important character.  A good personality and interesting background would be
very important here.

>2. Places
>	a. Terra
>	b. Vland
>	c. The Great Rift
>	d. Sylea
>	e. Antares

Enough to centre a campaign on each of these planets\places would be good.

>4. Historical Data
>5. Maps

- - more, detailed and bigger (attached poster maps?)

>a. Sector Map of the Core Sector (allows some exploration without buying
>First Survey)

- - this shoudl be important too.  I think the whole Core sector should be
detailed enough.  If Mileu 0 is going to be marketed as the 'essential
background' for T4, then we shouldn't have to buy ANOTHER book, just to play
a campaign using this one.  That'd make 3 books to beging playing the game.
M0 shouldn't have too much, in the way of the WHOLE 3I, but enough to
explore and play in the 'official T4' core sector without buying another
book would be a good idea.

>	1. Diplomatic Interactions
>	2. Player generic Imperials
>	3. Playing Vilani

Sounds good.  Perhaps a new career for someone in the Imperial bureauacracy?

Sounds like M0 is going to be good....

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 9 Oct 96 15:54:01 MS
Subject: Transplanted Hominids

Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk> said:
>Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
>allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
>source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
>eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love the idea
>of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more scientifically thought out.

Unless Grandfather et al genetically engineered all of the groups to follow a 
general predetermined evolutionary path.  Since the Ancients could not predict 
or compensate for the natural forces of evolution, the races still show 
surprising differences, but overall are more similar than different.

Or at least that's my guess

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:44:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> WARNING to all who read this...
> 
>         I am about to attack cannon.  

And what does this maillist do? Make chopped liver? :-)

> I believe that, when comparing ships capable of Jump-1 and Jump-5, the
> Jump-5 ship should not only be able to jump farther, but it should also
> be able to make a 1 parsec jump in 20% the time it takes the other ship.

I'm curious...why 20%?

> Better jump capability should not only give you greater range, but more
> speed as well.
>
> I've had many a fun session with PC's on the run, jumping out system by
> the skin of their teeth, only to find the people chasing them already
> waiting for them at their next destination.

In MegaTraveller and the Starship Operator's Guide, Pilot skill can 
improve the travel time between a planet and a jump point. I've always
allowed the Navigation/Astrogation skill to do the same with the time in
Jump. Also, keep in mind that the time in Jumpspace is computed using
the formula: 124 hours +(1D6 x 2). So it is possible for "canon" to
allow the situation stated above without twisting its barrel into a
pretzel.

> Either throw stones, or join the dark side--we'll rule the galaxy
> together!

Only if I get a to wear a black respirator mask...

                dee           dee
dum dum dum         dum           dum...
            dee           dee

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 96 17:48 PDT
Subject: Time Traveller

>From a much earlier posting: 

>From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 13:51:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Time travel 
>
>Actually, you can preserve causality -- or at least consistency -- 
>and still have time-travel in your game.  (I have some experience in 
>the matter, since our group has been playing a time-travel-based 
>RPG for over five years.)
>
>To keep consistency, you must rule out paradox -- changing the past 
>from what you have already experienced it to be.  The way we do that 
>is by "timelock."  Timelock is an alteration of probability that 
>affects time travellers.  For instance, suppose you have a dreadful 
>thing happen, then travel back a week.  An obvious thing to try is 
>to warn your past self.  But, if you try to visit your earlier self, 
>you can't catch a cab, or you are held up in traffic, or you are in 
>a traffic accident.  If you try to call yourself, the line is busy, or 
>your get a wrong number, or something of the sort.
>
>Timelock means luck acts to prevent time travellers from creating 
>inconsistencies.  Generally speaking, the more bull-headed one is 
>about trying to change the past, the worse you can hurt yourself with 
>timelock.  It hurts more to try walking through a wall at 100 mph than
>at 1 mph.

The implication that an omnipotent force protects casuality rankles my hard
science fiction neck hairs.  (Of course I find that perfectly acceptable in
a fantasy game) I've heard some pretty darn good ideas on what could happen,
and one idea that I have heard from a Russian Doctor of Cosmology at
Stanford U. made imperfect sense to me and was absolutely perfect for role
playing games.  From him and another science fiction source it works like this:

(Keep in mind I am leaving out the effects of massive spinning objects and
associated frame dragging and relatavistic acceleration on this example, as
well as any other relativity weirdness - more on that later).

1.  Picture the big bang as a rock dropped into the middle of a large smooth
surfaced pond which will be known universe.  Now imagine time as the series
of expanding waves travelling outward from the center of the splash made
from the dropped rock.  The closer the wave to the center, the closer to the
beginning of time.  The further out from the center, the farther into the
future.  

2.  Whenever you are on a wave, you are experiencing it's 'present'.
Whether you are on a wave or not it will continue expanding outward at a
constant rate, so if you leave a wave and return, you can only return to
that wave at the point in time it has moved to, and thus will find that an
equivelant interval has passed.  (If you wanted to go to the point in time
just after you left you would find yourself on another wave.)  You can go to
a specific point in time and catch the wave that is there or you can find
specific waves at whenever point in time they have expanded to.  These waves
are expanding at a constant rate and do not catch up to each other, so a
change on one will not affect the ones that are ahead of it or behind it.
For this particular 'model' I am assuming that the waves are all identical
(for the most part) and that each experiences nearly the exact same events
as they expand outward into the future, at their appropriate time, UNLESS
some outside influence changes the course of events on a given wave in some
dramatic way.  (I presume that the events of each wave are somewhat
different on some random level naturally, so each wave might not only be a
different moment of time, but have some subtle or grotesque variation of the
events that occur in universe since the beginning moments of that waves
existance.  So it would be possible to speculate on the possibility of a
given wave being rather unique in discovering time travel)

On one of these waves is a time traveller.  He made his time machine
discovery and decides to travel into the past.  Let's call his wave Original
wave.  

We will assume the following about his time travelling machine, for the sake
of simplicity:

1. It is able to uniquely identify any wave it has visited.
2. It is also able to return to any wave that has been uniquely identified.
3. It can also travel freely backwards or forward across the waves, as many
as you want, (with femtosecond being at least one wave) until you get far
enough in the direction you are going until you reach the moment in time in
the past or the future that was your destination.  He need only go to the
physical location he wants to be when he arrives in the past or future and
select a moment in time (down to the  quadrillionth of a second) and he will
appear there.  His time travelling machine has to be either set to take him
back to a specific date (which counts the number of waves it needs to hop to
get to a point that is relatively that far into the past or future) or any
uniquely identified wave.  

The traveller decides to conduct some experiments.  He leaves his wave of
Origin and goes back in time.  Note that his Origin wave is still expanding
forward into the future once he leaves. As he travels in time, he can choose
to travel toward the center of the expanding circles of waves and visit the
past, or if he travels outward, past the expanding circles of waves
(including his Origin wave) he can visit the future.  

Experiment One:  Travels five years to past to secretly observe himself for
two minutes.  He knows that he does not recall ever seeing someone that
looked like himself back when he was in college, so he is reasonably sure
that he successful in remaining hidden or no other observing traveller from
some other future wave had visited his past.

Implementation:  He drives to his old University and positions himself in a
good vantage point to observe himself.  He had calculated approximately what
time from old schedules and calendars (since the Big Bang) as to when he had
been in a class room that he could view himself from a window. The current
date and time at his wave of Origin, is 08:00:00 AM 15 January 5490AD.  He
sets his destination timer to 08:00:00 AM 15 January 5485AD.  His master
clock shows down to the femto second the moment of arrival and captures the
unique signature of that wave that was passing by that exact moment of time
and labels it 000001.  He is now experiencing the 'present' of that unique
wave.  

Effect:  He timed things pretty well, and can see himself through a window
listening to a boring lecture.  After a moment or two he looks at the clock
on his time machine and notices that that the current local waves time is
08:05:16 AM 15 January 5485AD.  He has been "riding" wave 000001 for a mere
two minutes.  The current time back at his Origin wave is on his control
console as well and it too shows two minutes have elapsed.  He uses the
"RETURN TO ORIGIN" button on his time machine to take him back to his Origin
wave and as he successfully arrives and verifies that his laboratory clock
confirms that two minutes had elapsed. He had a camcorder recording the spot
he was in and played it.  The two minutes he was gone, there was no one
there, so he concludes that when he leaves, as far as his Orgin wave is
concerned, he is just no longer there.  He knows that if he had tried to
return to his Origin wave at any other time but the exact elapsed time he
was gone from it, that he would have simply ended up on a different wave. 

Experiment Two:  Travel five years to past to meet himself.  He definitely
does not recall ever seeing someone barge into his class claiming to be from
another time so he is curious to see if his ideas on what will happen are
correct.

Implementation:  Some thirty minutes from when he first travelled five years
back, he set out to travel back again to that same exact date he had gone to
before, 08:00:00 AM 15 January 5485AD.  

Effect:  He travels back to the past to that exact time, his time machine
calculating to the exact femto second how far across the expanding waves it
needs to go to arrive the same point in time as before.  Even though he
travelled to the same femtosecond he had gone to before the wave is a
different, new one.  

As he expected, he sees himself, but he knows it is a self from an earlier
wave that had just gotten to this point in time of trying experiment one.
He waits until his other self leaves and then walks into the class room and
shocks the teachers, students, and his younger self completely.  He
introduces himself and explains how he got there, and then leaves.  He was
there fifteen minutes and arrives at wave Origin having been gone fifteen
minutes.  He realizes that the change he wrought on that wave will only
affect that wave.   Since that wave will _never_ catch up to his Origin
wave, it doesn't affect him in a paradoxical matter.

Experiment Three:  Travel to the future.

Implementation:  He travels to the future ten years and while visiting, will
research history as it has manifested, travel back to his wave, use the
information, and go back to the future to see how it ended up.

Effect:  Assuming that waves tend to be similar (unless you feel that
grotesque random variations exist ala Sliders) he could trust that his
Origin wave will experience the same events as a future wave he visits.
He arrives and does a little research.  Apparently he has been missing for
ten years.  His attorneys have been investing his interests in various
stocks and haven't done too badly, but he makes a note or two so that when
he goes back, he can advise them.  He travels back to his Origin wave,
instructs his attorneys and goes back to the identical wave he visited in
the future before.  Nothing has changed.  He smacks himself on the forehead
for forgetting that his Origin wave will take a while (ten years actually)
to catch up to this point in time, but in the meantime this wave will be ten
years further out...
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:42:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Bruce Johnson wrote:
 any Ancient device has ever advanced Imperial
> technology. Every time I've seen them mentioned they're always
> incrutable, usually wildly dangerous devices:
> 
>         " Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!"
> 
>         POOF
> 
>         "Hey! Where'd Joe go?"  

LOLOLOL!  I just love to see things like this on a post.  It makes them 
so much more enjoyable to read.  

Sometimes, like with this one, I'll print it out and pass it out at my 
next game session.  The players love it!

Sometimes, like the one Paul Walker wrote about the EC and using one, 
unified language, I start one of those fax things where you fax all of 
your friends.  Then they fax theirs.  Then, pretty soon, its on 
everybody's fax in the whole city.

Bravo!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:49:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> HA!  Based on the conversations we've had about "d6" vs "all others", I
> *knew* you weren't even "half serious" about this one. <bg>

:)


> Here's a general question...
> 
> Why do we insist on normal distributions for task rolls, anyway? (And
> don't invoke the dreaded canon! <g>) Why don't we just go to straight
> percentage rolls?

Okay, let's say we do.  How would you arrive at the target numbers?  I'd 
be interested in any idea you come up for this.

This kind of leads me into something that I thought of when Kenneth was 
emphasizing the need to go about this whole "search" correctly.

Here are some thoughts on over-all questions that we might want to answer 
before we get down to the nitty-gritty:

1)  How complex do we want this to be?
	A) How many tables should be involved?
	B) What sort of mathematical operations should be required?

2)  What sort of dice do we want to use?
	A) Stick with D6's only?
	B) Use 1/2 Dice?
	C) Use D4's, D8's, D10's, D12's, and/or D20's?

3)  What should be the "base" for the roll?
	A) Characteristics
	B) Some arbitrary number (i.e., 8+)
	C) Skill Levels (or some multiple thereof)
	D) Something else?

4)  What should the basic modifiers to the target number be?
	A) Characteristics
	B) Skill Levels
	C) Something else?

5)  What sort of probability progression do we want from target number to 
target number?

6)  What sort of probability progression do we want from difficulty level 
to difficulty level?


Answers to the above, as well as additional questions, would be 
appreciated from anyone who wants to participate.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 20:45:27 -0700
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> I've got the solution to the problem.  It involves no division or
> subtraction of attribute values, and it comes up with some pretty darned
> good probabilities.
> 
> 
> EASY          AUTO*
> AVERAGE       2D6
> DIFFICULT     2D8
> FORMIDABLE    2D10
> STAGGERING    2D12
> IMPOSSIBLE    2D20
> 
> * Roll 1D10 if default skill use
> 
> Now, isn't that easy? :)  Easy to remember, easy to use.  Gets rid of the
> 1/2 dice.  No complex mathematics required.
> 
> Who could ask for anything more? :)
> 
> Oh, you want to stick with the canon....well, fine! :P
> 
> Next!

Somebody hit me.  This is a joke, right?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:57:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Auction Update 5

Nathan & Theresa Mezel wrote:
> 
> The results of the auction as of 09OCT96, 11:00am EST
> 
> 22.  High Passage No. 3 $15.00  jlockett@io.com

I raise my bid to $17 on High Passage #3

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:35:35 PST
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

In mail you write:

> The problem I have is that if you're very lucky during character generation
> then the character can effectively dominate the group.  The "I have Pilot 1, 
> but a Dex of 10, so you should let me pilot, even though you have a Pilot 6,
> because you only have a Dex of 4." Syndrome.  Exscuse me?  In reality the 
> former person is likely to act quicker, but act wrong in an unexpected 
> situation.  I guess that I tend to lean on experience and training more than
> shear raw talent.

Hmmm. Your example got me to thinking. Obviously, an attribute is only
helpful if it is at least average. And it can be a lot *less* than
helpful if it is below average (picture the bomb-disposal expert with a
dex of 1 and a skill of 6. He knows all there is to know about bombs,
but doesn't dare actually work on them).

Also, it's ridiculous for attribute to count for *more* than skill. 

So, here are my proposals.

1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.

2. The bonus is limited to the skill level (or to 1 if the skill is
level 0). I supposed penalties can be limited likewise. 

I think #1 will work a *lot* better than the "halve the attribute"
idea, and it'll make players make more realistic choices of skills.

#2 might work ok also, but I'm not as sure. And I don't think I want to
know what happens if you combine them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:02:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: POOF indeed

On 9 Oct 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> Bruce Johnson said:
> > " Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!"
> >
> > POOF
> >
> > "Hey! Where'd Joe go?"
> 
> Hah!  I'll bet Joe Walsh isn't gonna like _this_ roleplay example.  

[snicker]...actually, I've grown so used to the "Joe Blow," "Average 
Joe," etc. terms that I usually don't even think about it any more. :)

Joe's of the world, Unite in Protest against the defamation of our name!

Grin...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:23:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996 FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

> This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we think we
> want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback about
>    A. What you want to see in the book?
>    B. What elements in the outline should be expanded?
> 

Neat!  Thanks for providing us with another opportunity to influence what 
our favorite game will be like!


> Outline:
> 
> Introduction (and concept)
> History
>     1. Antecedents
>         a. The last decades of the Long Night
>         b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium

'Twould be nice to see a bit more about the First and Second Imperiums 
than what was given in the T4 rulebook.  
I'd say that it would be pretty important to at least include more info 
on the Second Imperium/Ramshackle Empire.


>     2. Sylea's Rise
>         a. Economic Pressures
>         b. 

b.  Political Pressures


>     3. Establishment of the Third Imperium
	a)  Politics
		i)  Opposition Groups
		ii) Supporting Groups
	b) Economics


Thanks again,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:25:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
[snip]
> > Oh, you want to stick with the canon....well, fine! :P
> > 
> > Next!
> 
> 
> Somebody hit me.  This is a joke, right?
> 
> Kenneth.
> 

Yup, gotta work on those punch lines.  Sigh.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 20:27:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> 
> This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we think we
> want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback about
>    A. What you want to see in the book?
>    B. What elements in the outline should be expanded?

May I humbly (and desperately) recommend that all posts to IG in
response to this be sent directly to IG rather than to this maillist?
Even a digest may get out of hand on this one.

With that said, COME ON, EVERYBODY! THIS WHAT WE'VE BEEN ASKING FOR!
And watch those miskeys...no telling what material IG will cut and
paste.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #524
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 525

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #523
         2. re Skills
         3. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         4. Re: Milieu 0
         5. Re: Probability & PBeM
         6. Re:  Probability
         7. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         8. Jump space assumption
         9. Re: Adventure Outlines vs Choreographed Adventures
        10. Re: Alternate technologies and plot devices
        11. Re: Traveller News Service
        12. T4 in Nova!
        13. Re: POOF indeed
        14. Cleon and the Marches: A Reply
        15. Harold for President
        16. Re: Probability
        17. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 22:25:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #523

>From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Traveller odds and ends auction.
>
>Hello. Cleaning some more items out and am ready to auction them off.

>Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
>Steve Jackson Games

I bid $10
>
>Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
>Steve Jackson Games

I bid $10

>
>Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
>Steve Jackson Games

I bid $10

Allen Shock


------------------------------

From: Shane.Dowling@deetya.gov.au
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:45:50 +1000
Subject: re Skills

I have been lurking for a while and thought that I might add this.

I have started to run a milieu 0 game have been doing the rolls as d6
instead of d3.  Also I let the players roll 2D6 and I roll what I think
is the difficultly level.  As such some of the players have yet to
notice that I do this and there has been some confusion when the players
dice say the task has worked but are informed that it failed.  Fun for
me and they have a limited knowledge if a task is working or not.

I know that is not a solution that people are looking for but it works
for me and adds some confusion for the players now that they don't know
the whole story with the dice rolls.

I will tell what is happening in the game next post.

Shane Dowling



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 96 23:13:39 -0500
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On 10/09/96 at 05:35 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
>the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
>attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.

Excellent idea.  I'm not sure if it's going to work, or be easier to
handle, but I *really* like this.

We're going to end up with lower target numbers this way, an average of 2d6
lower.  We'd need to boost the number back up, maybe by increasing the
skill factor somehow.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:28:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Milieu 0

>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:42:17 -0400
>Subject: Milieu 0 Outline

Well, I think I left you with...

>More comments later.

Sorry, but my ride was ready to leave work, and I wasn't about to miss that! :)

>    3. Problems
>	a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
>	b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 

Hmmm, nothing about Solomani pressures?  I would think they would be
something of trouble makers as well.

>Structure of Organizations
>1. Structure of the Sylean Federation

This interests me extremely!  In my PBeM, I have characters that retired
from a variety of organizations.  A few examples...

     Federation Information Bureau - similar to FBI, internal government affairs
     Sylean Special Intelligence - Similar to CIA, external affairs
     Naval Intelligence - Important part of navy, collect military data on
                                 foreign worlds.

>2. Structure of the Third Imperium

So far, the way I am planning to deal with this is that the authority
structure switched to a single individual and the Senate became an advisory
board.  Of course, the addition of the Calandar Bureau and a few other
agencies and the transition in name of everything else.  Also, as I
mentioned before, the Diplomatic Corps is a sub agency under the Scouts
(although they are nearly autonomous).

<<<...snippage...>>>
>1. Personalities
>		a. Cleon (Emperor)
>		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to
adventurers)
>		c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu Labs)
>		d. Frank Repzinski XVII

        Who is Frank Repzinski XVII??????

I would add another couple of people here, but they are based on some of the
agencies I listed above.

          e. Charles MacMillian.  Head Ambassador, and good friend of Cleon.
Charged with the most delicate negotions.

          f. Director of Naval Intelligence - This fellow is indespensible
to Cleon in his expansion.

          g. Director Davis - Director of the Diplomatic Corps.

          h. Directors of Intel agencies - Very important people.

As I said, all of these people are from my campaign and are VIP's there,
that doesn't mean they WILL be in Marc's Year 0, but I still would like to
see them in the book. :)

<<<...snippage...>>>
>3. Things
>		a. AAB (Vilani repository of all knowledge)
>		b. Fusion Plus
>		c. The Warrant of Restoration (the document that establishes the Third
Imperium)
>		d. Scout Cruiser

Again, I'd add something from my campaign.

      e. Diplomatic Cruiser.

<<<...snippage...>>>
>Rules
>	1. Diplomatic Interactions

I'm VERY anxious to see these rules!!!!!

>	2. Player generic Imperials
>	3. Playing Vilani



Much of what is here seems to indicate that the reason the Core sector map
is not fleshed out more is either because of

   1. The map is of the Early or Mid Sylean Federation, and not Year 0, or
   2. The Federation was involved in MAJOR exploration and expansion toward
Vland to either win Vilani support or crush it.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:28:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Probability & PBeM

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:34:25 -0700
>Subject: Re: More Probability Stuff (REALLY LONG)

>You've hit the nail on the head.  Looking at the target number is an 
>easier way than comparing all the percentages.  We can run a percentage 
>table to check our work later.

Good, this is much easier.  The only thing is, we need to keep in mind that
we can use either the 2,2.5,3,3.5,4 D system, or the 2,3,4,5,6 D system.  I
am trying to get Excell tables up for both probabilities.  If anyone wants
them when I have them done, I will send them out or post them to my web page.

>I'll tell you, Paul, you can referee me anytime.  And believe me, I 
>don't say that lightly.  I'm always the ref around here (in my gaming 
>group) because none of them GMs to the level that I expect.

Well, hee hee, actually, my PBeM is under observation cause I'm a fairly new
ref.  I am getting pointers and advice on how to be better and better.  As a
matter of fact, this PBeM is my second official game.  There is some stuff
on my web page about it.  Hit the main page, then go to the Traveller page,
then the PBeM.  If you have other questions, send the off list and I'll tell
you more. :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:29:15 -0500
Subject: Re:  Probability

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:49:30 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
>
>Here are some thoughts on over-all questions that we might want to answer 
>before we get down to the nitty-gritty:

Good Idea, let's settle on some basics before we get too involved

>1)  How complex do we want this to be?
>	A) How many tables should be involved?
>	B) What sort of mathematical operations should be required?

Well, originally, I thought we should go for the quick basic system, but
then, I remembered the discussion we had about SSDS, QSDS, and NAH (was FFS)
and how we needed to start with the detail and work to the simple to keep it
consistent.  I lean toward the detail, but I would settle for a basic system. :)

By detail, I mean whatever is necessary, and by basic, I mean one simple
calculation to get a to hit number and roll the dice.

>2)  What sort of dice do we want to use?
>	A) Stick with D6's only?
>	B) Use 1/2 Dice?
>	C) Use D4's, D8's, D10's, D12's, and/or D20's?

Personally, I prefer d6's only in order to stick with past Traveller stuff
(TNE excluded).  I don't mind the 1/2D, but it is not my favorite.  Also,
D10's don't bother me at all, but I think for the basic system at least, we
need to stick with D6's

>3)  What should be the "base" for the roll?
>	A) Characteristics
>	B) Some arbitrary number (i.e., 8+)
>	C) Skill Levels (or some multiple thereof)
>	D) Something else?

I think the skill should be the base, and the modifiers to the skill level
(and possibly the dice) would be what made the difference between complex
and simple systems.

>4)  What should the basic modifiers to the target number be?
>	A) Characteristics
>	B) Skill Levels
>	C) Something else?

Base modifier should be the Characteristic.

>5)  What sort of probability progression do we want from target number to 
>target number?

Hmmm,  Gotta admit, I'm not too sure what you mean by this one. :)

>6)  What sort of probability progression do we want from difficulty level 
>to difficulty level?

Again, you seem to have stumped me. :)


>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:35:35 PST
>Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
>
>So, here are my proposals.
>
>1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
>the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
>attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.

This is an interesting idea.  So let me try an example to see if I follow
your meaning...

Nakita (hee hee) has a skill level of 2 in Biology and a 9 for EDU.  Her 'to
hit' number would then be 9+2+2??? or would it just be 2+2? or what?  I
think I'm confused. :)

>2. The bonus is limited to the skill level (or to 1 if the skill is
>level 0). I supposed penalties can be limited likewise. 

Now this I do understand.  In the example above, if Nakita (hee hee) had a
skill level of 1, the bonus would only be limited to 1 not 2 which is the
difference, right?


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 96 23:21:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On 10/09/96 at 05:58 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> See Leonard, once you toss out canon on one thing you can toss it on
>> several.  You just need to think it out and be *internally* consistent.
>> <g>

>I don't like your ideas, because if we do what you say, what use will all 
>of our canonical/published materials be?  I spent a lot of money on that 
>stuff, and I don't want you invalidating it all!  

>Grin....

Well EXCUUUUSE ME! <G>

"Get the kerosene!  I'll get the wood!  We'll teach this heritic." <wink>


Eris

- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:56:05 +0100
Subject: Jump space assumption

My thought:
In my game i have players with nervous ticks who just can't sit the one
week minimum out. Statements like:
- -Aren't we there yet?
- -cm on how does it take this long to get there?
Rule the jump space continuum and bore the hell out of me. 

Can't one assume that it takes like a week in normal time to travel 1par
with J-1 engines, but in the ship it takes only a few hours. They did it in
the Space rangers cronicle, why not in traveller?

Only a Q..
	Goran


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:23:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Adventure Outlines vs Choreographed Adventures

A useful tool I've rarely seen used in published scenarios is the flowchart.
Remember *adventure nuggets*?  These are the incidents on the flowchart.
>From the POV of simply running a coherent and interesting adventure,
flowcharts let the GM structure things so he/she isn't completely ambushed
by capricious PCs and also (for those of us with day jobs) allows the GM to
overload (I don't know what other term to use - when you have an encounter
appear more than once in an adventure, but on different branchs or paths of
the flowchart, so the encounter can occur only once as the PCs proceed
through the adventure...) encounters so that a) the PCs have, within
(wide/wild) reason, freedom of choice as to what they will do and b) the GM
only needs to really detail one adventure thread of encounters, incidents,
etc. (with much overloading across the various threads the adventure may
take).  Sure, this amounts to smoke and mirrors so far as real PC freedom of
choice is concerned, but it works, especially for those of us with limited
(time) budgets. - Bill

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Alternate technologies and plot devices

<...cut>

>     The Third Imperium is likely to meet a number of races that have used 
>     different means of manipulating the environment. Sophonts have used 
>     mechanical, biological, electromagnetic or even psionic methods to 
>     promote the basic needs shared by most living beings: water, food, 
>     procreation, security, shelter, living space and knowledge. 
>     
>     Races may also achieve a high level of technology in some fields, 
>     while for various reasons falling behind in certain key areas. As an 
>     example, the (now extinct) minor race of Sabmiqys/Antares was known to 
>     have achieved TL17 in most technologies but because of social and 
>     psychological factors never appear to have developed jump drive or 
>     even space flight. 

Consider two other SF games - GW's Warhammer 40k/Epic Space Marine, and Iron
Crown Ent.'s Silent Death game.  Both have species that take the
biotechnical route - the Tyranids (GW) and the Nightbrood (ICE). Weird stuff
that, in each case (and I'm DEFINITELY not a GW fanatic) is consistent and
viable and provides a real challenge to the merely human species in the game... 

- - Bill


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller News Service

At 04:31 AM 10/8/96 EST, you wrote:
>     I'd like to see some news items on the Imperium Games TNS Web page! 

<...cut>

Good stuff!  Gives us weenie refs a chance to be famous and adds a really
ramdom element of evolution to T4 and M0! Of course, it'll keep IG folk
hopping as they incorporate (the many) good ideas they'll get this way... - Bill


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:23:38 -0400
Subject: T4 in Nova!

Arrived home from work and found a priority mail packet in my garage
containing a signed, undamaged copy of hardbound T4 (with errata) - yeah!!!
- - Bill

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 00:09:32 -0500
Subject: Re: POOF indeed

On 10/09/96 at 08:02 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> > " Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!"
>> >
>> > POOF
>> >
>> > "Hey! Where'd Joe go?"
>> 
>> Hah!  I'll bet Joe Walsh isn't gonna like _this_ roleplay example.  

>[snicker]...actually, I've grown so used to the "Joe Blow," "Average 
>Joe," etc. terms that I usually don't even think about it any more. :)

Yeah, it's not like he said, "Hey Eris, poke...." <gd&r>


Eris 

- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 10 Oct 96 15:59:24 +1000
Subject: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply

     Sorry I can't address everybody's comments individually, but I only 
     get to use our internet link once in a while so I have to be 
     selective! So, many thanks to John, John, Hans, Jamie, & Earl for their 
outstanding comments...hope I haven't missed anybody! 
     
Here goes: 
1. Scouts probably made contact with the Zhos before Traders did, unless the 
IISS spent its resources exclusively in recontacting former Rule of Man/First 
Imperium worlds. 
2. I recall from somewhere that the Imperium had settlements in Foreven sector 
before the First Frontier War, when the Zhodani pushed the frontier back to the 
Spinward Marches. 
3. Good point about the psionic faction within the Imperium pushing for contact 
with the Zhos. My guess is that they would have used sneaky, covert, sly, wicked
mind manipulation tricks to do this - a great adventure seed! 
4. The model I have used for information flow between the Imperium and the 
Zhodani is based on the interchange between the ancient Roman and Chinese 
empires. Each knew of the other's existence, and roughly the direction, because 
of rumours that flowed with the exchange of traders, bandits, etc. along the 
Silk Road. Each trader only covered a few dozens to a few hundreds of 
kilometres, but silk/spices still flowed towards Rome and gold/silver/gems still
flowed towards China and India. Stories and rumours filtered along with trade. 
- - an interesting aside: the existence of Hadrian's Wall (built c.2nd century) 
and strong evidence that the Romans started building a wall around the *entire* 
empire (!), roughly a century after the Great Wall of China was completed, has 
led historians to speculate that the idea for the Roman wall may have come from 
stories of a huge wall in the far off Chinese empire. 
- - it is known that Rome traded directly with India, and that Buddhist monks and 
traders regularly travelled between India and China. Eastern Roman empire 
merchants apparently made it as far as Java (modern day Indonesia!)
- - a researcher recently found, in the Chinese government archives from the time,
a letter from the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius to the Emperor of China. This is
the strongest evidence that both empires were aware of each other's existence. 
<Back to Traveller-sorry guys!>
Therefore I think that *some* indirect, intermittent contact between Imperium 
and Zhodani during the Long Night is quite possible. Information (mostly in the 
form of rumours) still flows across distance, even though its accuracy & 
therefore value degrades with the number of interchanges! 
5. I concede that there is a vanishingly small probability of high-tech Zhodani 
gear being captured/bought by Vargr and then used against the Vilani. 
6. I recall (Regency Sourcebook?) that the Zhodani had kept the Darrians under 
observation during the Long Night without revealing their presence. 
- - I am most dissatisfied with this part of the 'canon'; I think that the Zhos 
and pre-Maghiz Darrians were so close to each other (ie 1 sector at most between
their borders) that it is a bit ridiculous to think that TL14 and a TL16 
starfaring civilizations would just *miss* each other for a few *centuries*!
7. The many human races, whether descended from *Homo Erectus*, *Homo Habilis* 
or early *Homo Sapiens* would still be quite close genetically even after 200k 
years. The question is whether they would have drifted far enough to cease being
*interfertile* and able to produce *fertile offspring* (the definition of a 
species!). Even closely related species such as horses and donkeys can produce 
offspring, even if it is only infertile mules! Also, look at the variety in 
size, appearance, etc. among species of dogs/cats/cattle after only a few 
thousands of years of selective breeding. I therefore think it is OK to say that
humans might remain interfertile even after 200,000 years, but since I'm not a 
geneticist I'm open to argument here. 
- - this raises an interesting point: are there *non-intelligent* human races out 
there in Known Space? Is it possible that a planet of *homo sapiens* could have 
drifted far enough that they would become essentially animal in intelligence, ie
just another primate? 
- - for a nice look at a number of hominid races (mostly separate *species* ie 
mutually infertile!) after a few *millions* of years of parallel evolution, see 
Larry Niven's *Ringworld* and *Ringworld Engineers*. 

Sorry about the length of this one. I will try to behave myself in future. 

------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:14:21 +0900
Subject: Harold for President

I said:

>Normally I would say "Faith?  No, just the facts.
>Lack of proof is not proof - facts require proof,"
>but instead I'm going to attempt to be funny and
>say, "Well then, to be completely fair we'd all have
>to become agnostics!"

Then Harold said:

>>OK, then I'm sure the world would love to hear the details concerning 
the
**conclusive** proof you have that God doesn't exist.  I'm sure there is 
at
least a PhD in Philosophy in it for you.

(Someone rattles my cage again; more masking tape fun... RIP!)

You missed my point, Harold.  I didn't say that I have conclusive proof that 
God doesn't exist, I said there is no conclusive proof that God does.  I 
also said that not being able to disprove something does not make it a fact. 
 If I say that I believe that I am directly descended from the Pharaohs (or 
whatever) and thus the Divine Inheritor of the Earth (stop laughing!), 
according to your logic, my claim would be acceptable because there is no 
conclusive proof against it!  Just believing something doesn't make it 
reality (except in Disney movies...).  Only conclusive proof can make a 
fact.  Therefore, the existence of God is not a fact because there is no 
conclusive proof supporting the claim.  Lack of conclusive proof is OK for 
opinions though, so you can be of the *opinion* that God exists.  (Claiming 
opinion to be fact based on lack of disproof is what I'm really opposed to.) 
 Hey, I'm compromising!  Let's be nice!

Anybody want to join the Howard Hale Fan Club? ; )

Signed,

Armand the Nice Traveller-Loving Atheist (We're All Nice!)

PS Let's let this thread die, OK?

(I need to change this masking tape...)


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:33:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Probability

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:29:15 -0500, Paul Walker wrote:

> Nakita (hee hee) has a skill level of 2 in Biology and a 9 for EDU.  =
Her 'to
> hit' number would then be 9+2+2??? or would it just be 2+2? or what?  I
> think I'm confused. :)

I think *I'm* confused... Combat Biology !?!


James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:29:38 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>      Nice attempt to bash serious canon, but I'm afraid you won't get very
> far.  Your preference for "faster" ships being able to make same-distance
> jumps in less time has no grounding in anything except a vague personal
> preference 

True.  But most things in Traveller have some sort of base that makes sense.  For 
instance, gauss rifles fire rounds at a pace of 1500 m/sec because they have a 
magnetic, frictionless barrel.  Reactionless thruster plates can work through the hull 
of a ship because they work on an atomic level--atoms push against each other not unlike 
two positive ends on two magnets.  

This one-week-in-jump-no-matter-what system has never been justified like most elements 
in Traveller other than to say, basically, "We don't understand it, but we know it 
works.  So we use it."  That, to me, doesn't make sense.

So, Trent, what I'm looking for here is an argument for the use of the o-w-i-j-n-m-w 
system without saying, "It is what Traveller was built on."  I'm questioning that 
assumption.  I want someone to make me a believer by detailing what they think the 
science is behind it. 

> and seemingly would completely change the dynamic of the entire
> game.  You might as well just be saying "I've never really liked it that
> Traveller can't have instantaneous interstellar communication; it'd sure
> make things a whole lot more efficient".  

Actually, Trent, I really like the way Traveller handles interstellar communication.  I 
like that, out on the fringe, starship Captains have the power of the Emperor, can make 
policy, and cannot rely on 'phoneing home' for instructions.  I like the trade and 
economics system used in the game--it generates a lot of work for the tramp freighters 
that our characters usually run.  This makes for great adventure.

Given that, I don't think that making "faster" ships will have that big of an impact on 
the Traveller universe as we know it.  Sure, communication to Capital/Core will be a 
little quicker, but we are still limited by the speed of transportion for communication. 
 

Let me show you this:  X-boats average jump-4.  It is somewhere around 176 parsecs from 
Regina, in the Spinward Marches, to Capital in the Core sector.  Simple math says that 
an X-boat could make the jump in 44 weeks.  The kicker here is:  I'm not saying that a 
jump-4 ship could make the jump ANY faster.  Under my system, it would take the same 
amount of time.  But, when the X-boat made a jump of, say, 2 parsecs, the ship could do 
it in 3-4 days (1/2 the time).

We've got the jump-6 barrier (which I have no problem with:  we had the sound barrier, 
Traveller broke the speed of light barrier shooting Einstein's theory all to hell, and 
Star Trek, of all things, has the Warp 10 barrier.), and the distances that we are 
dealing with in the Imperium are so great, that I know having "faster" ships will not 
greatly impact on the communication/economic situation basic to Traveller.

> but unless you can provide LOTS of really good reasons to
> back your statement up, you're not going to win against one of the fundamental
> assumptions of the game

See my comments above.

> (for one, it would irrevocably change trade and communication strategies) but I'm
> pretty certain that they would be significant enough that the interstellar
> community structure would be changed enough that it would no longer be
> "Traveller" in it's traditionally recognizable form.  

'Fraid not, Trent.  My system would not significantly change the community structure 
of Traveller.  See my comments above.


> that there are certain fundamental assumptions you'll just need to accept, almost as
> much as "Communication is limited to the speed of travel."

Again, read my comments above.  Communication will basically stay the way it is.  What 
will change is the communications between local star systems, and that, too, will still 
be measured in days.

Look at this:
Let's guestimate about civilian jump drives.  What would you guess is the percentage of 
jump-1 plants on civilian ship in the entire Imperium?  Jump-2s?  The other jump 
numbers?

Here's my guess.
Jump-1:  40%
Jump-2:  30%
Jump-3:  20%
Jump-4+: 10%

If you agree with my guestimate, then 70% of the time it will take either 7 (for jump-1) 
or 3.5 (for jump-2) to make a jump between two neighboring star systems (1 parsec).

Trent, we are not talking about warp speed and sub-space communications here.  We are 
talking about that unheard of, expensive, fuel consuming, civilian jump-4 ship having a 
little time advantage over vessels with smaller j-drives.  With all the fuel and 
added expense associated with the larger j-drives, this time savings begins to 
make sense.  

I am eagerly awaiting your response.  (BTW, you write a great post!)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #525
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 526

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         2. Re: (To Michael Koehne) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. Re: Probability
         4. Re: (To Eris Reddoch) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         5. Re: Jump space assumption
         6. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         7. The Aptitude Idea
         8. Re: (To Leonard Erickson) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         9. Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?
        10. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
        11. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        12. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        13. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        14. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        15. Re: Probabilities and Task Systems
        16. Re: Transplanted Hominids
        17. Re: More Probabilities
        18. whatever-space
        19. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:35:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Michael Koehne wrote:

> 
>         The jump takes 7*24*parsec/jumpdrive hours, and you have
>         to be very far away from gravity.
>  Thanks, Michael.  I like the idea.  It seems a litte too math heavy for me--which is 
unusual for me to say because the more detailed, the better.  I'm also trying to get 
away from the light second TNE stuff.

I'm going to print out your post and play with it to see if I can tinker with it to my 
liking.

Thanks for the post.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:44:08 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Michael Koehne) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Michael Koehne wrote:
>
> 
>         The jump takes 7*24*parsec/jumpdrive hours, and you have
>         to be very far away from gravity.

I didn't say in my last reply to your post that I really like your formula.  This is 
exactly the system I am proposing.  

I said a ship with jump-5 capability could make a 1 parsec jump in 20% of the time it 
would take a jump-1 ship to do it.  7 days x 20% = 1.4 days.  Under your formula above, 
you get the exact same result.

What I meant in my last reply about wanting to get away from the math was your reference 
to the TNE light second and g hour approach to normal space.  I like using the travel 
formula.

I use your (the TNE) approach when a ship has a fuel burning Heplar drive.  Thruster 
plates run only on electricity, and the Travel Formula is good enough for me.

Thanks, again.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:46:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Probability

Trent Smith wrote:

>      Perhaps in future editions of T4, IG can include a paragraph or two
> about such "Task System Options" (like they did with the multiple Initiative
> rules) allowing individual refs to customize their games.  The "more
> difficult" rolls could be an option, and so could the "skill-focused"
> system. Now we all just need to agree as to what is the best way to achieve
> these effects.
>  Excellent idea!  I'd like to see an official 'fix', even if it is an optional rule.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 02:55:09 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Eris Reddoch) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I don't go that far, but I do reduce the time in Jmp space for advanced
> drives. I want the length of time in JSpace to still be several days,
> because I *really* like the slow communication/transportation feel of
> Traveller.  

Eris, check out my comments to Trent Smith in Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump. 
 If you think it through, my system does not interfere with the slow 
communication/transportation feel of Traveller.  I really, really, really, like that 
feel as well, and it is not my intention to disrupt that.

I like the formula that you posted, but it seems still a little too slow.  I still don't 
see that much of a time savings for the more advanced jump drives.

I am glad, though, that we think alike on this matter.

 
> I also allow ships to be constructed or modified to be "Jump# Plus"
> ships.  This means they have better sensors, controls, jump grids,
> coils, and powerplants than normal ship's of that Jump number, but not
> quite up to the next Jump rating. A "Jump Plus" ship can *attempt* a
> jump one level higher than their normal rating, but there are a series
> of Formidable tasks the crew has to pass: the Engineer has to make a
> "Coil Tuning" task; the Pilot has to make a "Piloting" task; and the
> Astrogator has to make a "Astrogation" task. If any of the tasks fail
> then a Jump Error occurs, this could be a misjump, hardware failure, or
> the ship just remains where it was with the lose of fuel. BTW, Jump+
> ships stay in JSpace longer too,
> foex: a Jump 1+ ship attempting a Jump 2 would still take 163-178 hours
> to make the jump. (Honestly, I might make the tasks Staggering or
> Impossible with T4 tasks just to make them hard enough. <g>)
> VERY interesting idea.  I'm going to play around with that one.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Jump space assumption

     If your players get bored during that week in jump-space, maybe you
should consider speeding up the in-game clock and say "time passes".  I
don't see what the real problem is...

Trent Smith

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:32:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

     Compliment my ability to write good posts and the heightened 
expectation immediately intimidates me into silence.  Even though I still
have nagging (possibly just knee-jerk) doubts about what you're
suggesting (that large- or even medium-scale impact would be negligible)
I have to admit that so far what you've written seems pretty logical.
I'll have to think about it a little and see if I can come up with something
more concrete (or better yet, see if someone else can come up with
something concrete that I can latch on to and expand upon).

Thanks anyway,

Trent Smith

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 01:13:47 -0500
Subject: The Aptitude Idea

On 10/09/96 at 06:30 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>>I'm toying with using the following: Attribute + (Aptitude*Skill) =
>>Target Number

>>Aptitude could be a simple number (2 has been suggested), but better for
>>it to be something that reflects the psychological makeup of the
>>Character.

>This has great potential.  

Thank you. <g>

>I'm working on Official To Hit Tables for 1D6 to 6D6, and I'm
>interested in using that along with the aptitude idea to create a
>somewhat advanced task system.

- -- 

Let me expand on my version of the idea a little then.  First a
credit, the origin of this idea comes from my study of the
Aftermath! system.

Possible Aptitudes  (2d6)/2,dn or (2d3)-1

Aggressiveness  - modifies combat type skills
Charsima        - modifies interpersonal/social skills
Esthetic        - modifies artistic skills
Linguistic      - modifies communication/language skills
Mechanical      - modifies technical/mechanical skills
Natural         - modifies biological/wilderness/agurian skills
Scientific      - modifies science/theory skills

foex:

Skill       Attribute +  Aptitude * Skill     Target
- ------------------------------------------------------
Melee CBT   STR  (4)  +  AGG (5)  *   2         14

    [Character isn't Strong, but she is *very* aggressive and can make a
    lot of use out of training!]

Melee CBT   STR  (10) +  AGG (1)  *   3         13

    [This Character is very Strong, but he's a pussy cat and even
    though he has a lot of training he still isn't a super warrior.]

I haven't even *thought* about the numbers much yet.  I just like
the idea of having a psychological component.  We probably all know
people with "green thumbs" (high Natural), people that can look at
something mechanical and it stops working (low Mechanical) or starts
working (high Mechanical), and of course the "natural salesman,
leader, cassinova" (high Charsima)

At this point, I'm still thinking about it.  If anyone has any ideas
let me know.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:43:17 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Leonard Erickson) Hop, Skip, and Jump

I said:
> > I've had many a fun session with PC's on the run, jumping out system by
> > the skin of their teeth, only to find the people chasing them already
> > waiting for them at their next destination.

And Leonard Erickson replied:
> And this *alone* is a good reason to dump the idea. It screws up the
> flavor of the game. It also not only makes piracy *possible*, but
> *easy*. I watch you jump out, jump to your destination ahead of you,
> and have a day or so to position myself where my best guess readings of
> your jump out say you will jump in. Not good.

"Not So!," says Kenneth.  It is very difficult to calculate another ship's jump vector 
simply by watching it.  All those variables concerning the rotation of 
planets...satellites, rotating themselves, spinning around destination planets...both of 
these spinning around the primary star...the system, itself, moving in relation to the 
original jump point, tends to make the jump calculations difficult to match.

Of course, this is possible if you have good sensor data, but I bet if you tell your 
navigator to match a vector just from sensor data of another ship jumping out, he'd 
probably pull his hair out.  To quote a familiar movie, "Hyperspace isn't like dusting 
crops, boy.  One mis-calculation and you'd fly too close to a star or super nova, and 
that would end your trip real soon.  Wouldn't it?" 

In the games that I was referring to (where the ship was already waiting for them), the 
chasing ship knew that the PC's ship was only jump-1.  Through process of elimation, and 
role playing, the chasing ship looked at the available systems and guessed which ones 
the PCs were jumping to.  The chasing ship's more advanced drives allowed them to get 
there before the PCs arrived.

 
> Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
> parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
> *seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
> diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.

I can't agree, here, either, Leonard.  It still takes the same amount of fuel to charge 
the zuchai crystals and the jump grid (to rip the hole in normal space through to jump 
space)--no matter how long a jump you plan to do.  Fuel consumption becomes an issue.  
Those tanks can only hold so much.  If you micro-jump and plan to jump outsystem as 
well, you'd better have a place to fill up first.  

This is one reason for manuever drives.  The other is that micro-jumps are tricky 
business.  There is too much room for error and too much of a chance that you will over 
shoot your target point.

Let me give you an analogy:  Take out your stop watch.  Start the watch and stop it at 
exactly one minute (1:00:00).  This is a fairly easy operation because you have time to 
watch the seconds count off, and you are prepared to stop it at the right moment.

I liken this to a parsec or better jump.  The ship's nav system can handle this fairly 
easily.

Now, let's look at the micro-jump.  Using your stop watch, start it and stop it in one 
one-hundredth of a second (00:00:01).  Very hard to do, isn't it.  You might be able to 
do it in, say, 24 hundredths of a second, but this would put you way off course, 
wouldn't it.  No.  One one-hundredth of a second is what is needed, and ship's nav 
systems just can't make the calc.  This does not mean it is impossible--it just means 
that it is not practicle and very, very dangerous.  

Given this--a less than 1% chance of living and a more than 99% chance of dying--I'd 
sure as heck use my m-drive.


> My tracking station with it's huge antenna spots you, beams a message
> to a waiting task force and next thing you know, you are surrounded by
> ships. Worse, if they can do multiple jumps, they can jump in, acquire
> you as a target, fire, and jump out before your return fire gets there.

Again, Leonard, you are not thinking this through.  Let's go ahead and say that someone 
with a better j-drive than yours watched you jump out, pulled a rabbit out of his butt, 
and guessed which system you jumped to.  This does not mean that both ships came out in 
the same part of the system.  It takes days to travel across most systems, and there is 
some guess work on the part of the chasing ship as to where the target ship will arrive. 
 Will it be the main world, the gas giant, or right outside the asteroid belt?  So the 
chasing ship gets there first.  This does not mean, by any stretch, that the chasing 
ship automatically catches the target ship.


I look forward to your reply.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:45:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

Eris Reddoch wrote:
  I *know* I've moving pretty from from vanilla Traveller with
> this. <g>

That's probably what makes your players keep coming back, Eris.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

     Okay, I'm working from extremely vague memories based on skim-reading 
the DGP "Starship Operator's Manual" several years ago, but in that book
didn't they state that the various jump-levels (J-1 thru J-6) were actually
(and here I'm exposing my lack of ability to express myself clearly on
scientific (or even pseudo-scientific) matters) progressively higher 
"dimensions" or foldings of space which didn't really connect with one
another, but which require progressively harder computations and greater
energy expenditure to be able to reach?  That is, the difference between a 
J-6 capable engine and a J-1 capable engine is that the former can reach 
that "higher dimension" which allows space to be folded (so to speak, I'm
flailing for terminology here) up to 6-parsec distance, whereas the latter
can only reach the first level.  "Speed" doesn't really enter into the
equation, and neither does "efficiency" (except insofar as 6 parsecs is a 
lot more (2- or 3-D) distance than 1 parsec).
     That, then, is my complaint.  You (Kenneth) seem to be assuming that 
the increased high-end capability of the J-6 engine should go hand in hand
with increased low-end efficiency, but the way (IIRC) Jump-space(s) were
explained, this assumption isn't true.  Accessing any of the various
jump-levels (and misjump data leads us to believe that there are more than
6, but the higher ones are REALLY hard to access) leads to a week-long
reaction regardless, and it's the level accessed, rather than the "speed" 
of the ship, that determines where you'll arrive at the end of the reaction.
(A misjump is interpreted as accidentally accessing the wrong field/ level
of j-space).
     If I continue to recall correctly (IICTRC?) the MT fuel-consumption
formulae gave further credence to this system-  a J-6 capable ship used the
equivalent amount of fuel entering J-6 as a J-1 capable ship used entering
J-1, and a J-6 ship entering J-1 used less fuel, but still more than 
one-sixth the amount of a J-6 (meaning that making 6 J-1s wasn't the same
energy spent (over a longer time) as making one J-6).
     While obviosuly these are post-hoc rationalizations for why the
seemingly-sensible complaint you've made isn't the case (why can't J-6 ships
also make J-1s faster), it seems to fit the bill (to me, anyway) for the 
kind of "scientific" justification which you complained that the jump-space
rules were missing.
     Hope I made myself clear and didn't make any major canon-gaffes based
on faulty-memory-induced misconceptions.  Can someone who has ready access
to the DGP "Starship Operators" book either back me up or point out how and
where I went wrong?  Even if it's not of general list-interest, I'd like to
know.

Trent Smith
(guess it didn't take me as long as I thought it would to formulate a response)


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 03:59:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> FIRST SURVEY
> Each adventuring group determines its own survey results for each system they visit.

You asked for feed back:  It all looks great, but I don't like this leaving systems 
blank, like what was done with the Core subsector in the main book, at all.  I want to 
see the new materials support what has already been published.  

Besides, there is a lot of room for GMs to detail and customize a star system even if 
the stats of the main planet are provided.  In my campaigns, I do a lot with a systems 
outer/inner planets (planets other than the main world).  I use the World Builder's 
Handbook and my own imagination to fill in the holes.

The main world stats are just a skeleton to flesh out.  I can guarantee you that the way 
I flesh it out and the way another might is completely different.  There is plenty of 
room for customization.

What I want is for you guys to dazzle us with something new--not change what we are 
already used to.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:02:02 -0700
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

Douglas McCorison wrote:
> The problem I have is that if you're very lucky during character generation
> then the character can effectively dominate the group.  The "I have Pilot 1,
> but a Dex of 10, so you should let me pilot, even though you have a Pilot 6,
> because you only have a Dex of 4." Syndrome.  Exscuse me?  In reality the
> former person is likely to act quicker, but act wrong in an unexpected
> situation.  I guess that I tend to lean on experience and training more than
> shear raw talent.
>   

More proof that we have got to do something about this pooly weighted, attribute heavy 
task system.

Touche, Douglas.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:13:29 -0700
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Here's a general question...
> 
> Why do we insist on normal distributions for task rolls, anyway? (And
> don't invoke the dreaded canon! <g>) Why don't we just go to straight
> percentage rolls?

Here's my answer to that, Eris:  Because it feels wrong without them.

You people think that I'm disappointed with the T4 task system!  You should have seen me 
when I bought TNE.  The Virus--the D20s--UHHH, I shudder.

TNE changed the Traveller system, and I spent a year, off and on, converting the whole 
TNE book to using the MT task system.  Why?

Because I wouldn't drop the D6 in Traveller any more than I would drop the D20 in 
AD&D--or the percentage dice from Star Trek.  It is like taking MacArthur's pipe away 
from him.  It's like revoking James Bond's license to kill.  It's like leaving some of 
the planets from the Core subsector blank in the main book.  Get the picture?

Why do I support D6s in Traveller?  I don't have a good reason other than I like it that 
way.  It feels good.  And, maybe, that is the best reason after all.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:18:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> If you want to follow a ship jumping out in one of my games you have a big
> problem..that ship could be jumping to any system in it's range, and you
> have no way of knowing which one.  A pursueing force has to spread out,
> covering all possible systems...and that can quickly become a
> *dangerous* task. <g>

I'm in total agreement.  In fact, I just made a post stating this same thing.
 
> Second, that you can make "short haul" jumps.  In my games, a ship has
> to be over 200 stellar diameters out to jump, and it can leave jump only
> within 2 stellar diameters.   

Hey, now that is a heck of an idea.  I like that.  I really do.  It also addresses the 
importance of the m-drive.

Regards, my fellow cannon-dumper,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:43:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Probabilities and Task Systems

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> I _do_ have a problem with the fact that the average bloke with average
> skill has an average chance of succeeding at an impossible task.
> 
> What plasters me is the way the monikers don't jibe with the numbers.

OK, how's this for changing the names of the task difficulties?


Old Name		New Name
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy			Don't Even Bother.
Average			You Mean I Have To Roll?	
Difficult		Yeah, I Made That By Only 10 Points--This Is Difficult.
Formidable		What's The Chance That I'll Fail?  HA HA HA HA HA HA
Staggering		Good Thing I Got A High Stat During Character Generation.
Impossible		Ah, Let's Go Ahead And Give It To 'Em.



Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:47:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Transplanted Hominids

> Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk> said:
> >Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
> >allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
> >source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
> >eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love the idea
> >of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more scientifically thought out. 
So, this is why all of the aliens on Star Trek are humans with screwed up foreheads!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:54:42 -0700
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

Joe Walsh wrote:
> BTW, have you seen anything/thought of anything that you like yet, in
> terms of a "fix" to the task system?

The jury is still out.  I'm printing all of these wonderful tables that you, and the 
many others, have posted.  I'm going to take my time, meet with my math teacher player, 
and hopfully come up with something that is easy, makes sense, and 'feels' like 
Traveller.  Then, I will post it for any who want it.

> > P.S.  So, what is your beef with Microsoft, anyway?
> 
> Uh...well, they're the Evil Empire.  What other reason do I need? :)

Oh...uh...OK, Luke, I mean, Joe.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:04:38 +0300
Subject: whatever-space

Wes Payne wrote:

> There actually has been a fair bit of material published concerning 
> jumpspace theory (speculative, though it is) and jumpspace phenomenae.  
> You just haven't read it, probably.  DGP's "Starship Operator's Handbook" 
> (published for MegaTraveller) was, in my opinion, the best resource on this.

	I have read the SOH, but I still consider the jumpspace
	descriptions to be too speculative.

> ... In that text, it is clearly stated that j-space and subspace are NOT
> the same thing, insofar as the descriptions given for each vary widely.

	My reason to use subspace/gate combination was the jump drive
	design rules. I strongly dislike poorly described "black-box"
	components, and with subspace/gate I can explain why these
	components are needed, how much power the drives need, and how
        they are supposed to work.

> ... The parsecs-per-day travel times afforded by the alternate subspace
> technology for both starships and communications would totally disfigure
> the canonical background, such as it is.

	Yes, this is true. Another way to totally disrupt the "canonical"
	Traveller background, is to use 3D real space model in stead of 2D
	Traveller maps. Many Traveller trade routes cease to exist if the
	starmap takes into account that the stars may be separated by several
	parsecs from the galactic central plane.

        I think that Traveller is slightly burdened by its history. While
        new editions attempt to be compatible with previous editions,
        this compatibility may cause some problems, especially in technology
        rules. That is, after FFS was published the laser output had to be
        limited to TL x 50 Mj, because otherwise strong lasers would make
        all other weapons (and existing "canonical" starships) redundant.

        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:59:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Paul Walker wrote:
> Well, I know how against hand waving everyone is, but since Jump Dirve
> itself is hand waving, you could easily avoid this problem by saying that
> Jump covers a minimum of 1 Parsec.

Yeah, I've used this idea in a game before, Trent, but I like my stop watch idea better. 
 Check out my earlier post for that one.

> Also, while I agree that the potential of a Jump in 20% of the time creates
> trouble for trade and information in the canon universe, I think this idea
> has merit for a non-canon universe.

Again, It seems like my idea will really screw things up, but check out that earlier 
post.  I detail how it will not.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #526
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 527

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
         2. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         3. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         4. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         5. Re: Jump space assumption
         6. Those damnable unexplored Core worlds
         7. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         8. Re: The Aptitude Idea
         9. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        10. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        11. Re: Probability
        12. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
        13. Re: More Probabilites
        14. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump (CORRECTION)
        15. Re: The Aptitude Idea
        16. Re: Traveller gender issues (long) 
        17. [Fwd: Re: RC Worlds: Spires (Long)]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:11:21 -0700
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

Joe Walsh wrote:
> This kind of leads me into something that I thought of when Kenneth was
> emphasizing the need to go about this whole "search" correctly.
> 
> Here are some thoughts on over-all questions that we might want to answer
> before we get down to the nitty-gritty:
> 
> 1)  How complex do we want this to be?	VERY SIMPLE.  THAT'S WHAT I LIKED ABOUT 						THE T4 TASK SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>         A) How many tables should be involved?	NONE.
>         B) What sort of mathematical operations should be required?	MINIMAL/QUICK.  						IF ANY, WE CAN CALCULATE THEM ONE TIME 
						AND RECORD THEM ON THE CHARACTER'S 
						SHEET.
> 
> 2)  What sort of dice do we want to use?
>         A) Stick with D6's only?	ONLY D6s
>         B) Use 1/2 Dice?		I'M FLEXIBLE ON THIS.
>         C) Use D4's, D8's, D10's, D12's, and/or D20's?	NO.
> 
> 3)  What should be the "base" for the roll?
>         A) Characteristics
>         B) Some arbitrary number (i.e., 8+)
>         C) Skill Levels (or some multiple thereof) 		YES.
>         D) Something else?
> 
> 4)  What should the basic modifiers to the target number be?
>         A) Characteristics					YES.
>         B) Skill Levels
>         C) Something else?
> 
> 5)  What sort of probability progression do we want from target number to
> target number?				THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON THIS ONE.
> 
> 6)  What sort of probability progression do we want from difficulty level
> to difficulty level?				DITTO
> 
> Answers to the above, as well as additional questions, would be
> appreciated from anyone who wants to participate.
>

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:13:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 'Twould be nice to see a bit more about the First and Second Imperiums
> than what was given in the T4 rulebook.
> I'd say that it would be pretty important to at least include more info
> on the Second Imperium/Ramshackle Empire.

I Second this notion.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:24:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> I'm curious...why 20%?

Jump-5 takes one week to jump 5 parsecs--that's 1 parsec in 1/5th of a week.  1/5th, 
said as a percentage, is 20%.

The jump-1 ship can make a 1 parsec jump in 7 days.  The jump-5 ship can make it in 1.4 
days.  20% of 7 is also 1.4 days.

> In MegaTraveller and the Starship Operator's Guide, Pilot skill can
> improve the travel time between a planet and a jump point. I've always
> allowed the Navigation/Astrogation skill to do the same with the time in
> Jump. Also, keep in mind that the time in Jumpspace is computed using
> the formula: 124 hours +(1D6 x 2). So it is possible for "canon" to
> allow the situation stated above without twisting its barrel into a
> pretzel.

I use the MT Starship OP Guide too, but I hadn't thought of doing this with the j-drive. 
 Hmmm.

> > Either throw stones, or join the dark side--we'll rule the galaxy
> > together!
> 
> Only if I get a to wear a black respirator mask...

OK, you can wear the mask.  I'm going to boil my face in acid, wear purple robes, and 
sit on the emporer's thrown.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:54:01 +0100
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

Douglas McCorison wrote:
> The "I have Pilot 1, but a Dex of 10, so you should let me pilot,
> even though you have a Pilot 6, because you only have a Dex of 4."
> Syndrome.  Exscuse me?  In reality the former person is likely to
> act quicker, but act wrong in an unexpected situation.

I personally don't have a problem with the high weighting of
attributes.  From my experience of TNE, these situations don't arise
too often:  Given the choice the players will take the skill they're
going to be good at, not the one they're going to have to sink six
points in before they're reasonable.

This is also reflected in real life (to an extent), for example how
many football players have a low edurance?  Or helicopter pilots low
dexterity?  In my case I will readily admit my strength is below
average, and this has lead me away from concentrating my efforts in
those areas.  I have had no opportunity to achieve that wrestling
skill of six because I know I'd be no good, and not enjoy it, but due
to a high dex I took up fencing, enjoyed it, and am now skilled in it.

To sum up, I don't see the problem since the situation should not
exist.  If you really want to play a pilot, get the GM to allow you to
re-roll that low dex, if he won't design a character suited to the
attributes, don't try to force the character through years of misery
(and several crashed planes) in piloting school where he is never as
naturally good as the next guy on the course.

Don't forget, characters are people too...

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:27:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jump space assumption

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Goran Sjoberg wrote:

> My thought:
> In my game i have players with nervous ticks who just can't sit the one
> week minimum out. Statements like:
> -Aren't we there yet?
> -cm on how does it take this long to get there?
> Rule the jump space continuum and bore the hell out of me. 
> 
> Can't one assume that it takes like a week in normal time to travel 1par
> with J-1 engines, but in the ship it takes only a few hours. They did it in
> the Space rangers cronicle, why not in traveller?


I for one am not prepared to handle all the bookeeping with regards to
aging, etc, that would be introduced with different time 'streams'.  If
your players get anxious, just zip through the week to the next stop.


> 
> Only a Q..
> 	Goran
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:38:28 +0100
Subject: Those damnable unexplored Core worlds

<Muchos discussion re these Core worlds snipped>

Once again, two suggestions:
(1) Re wrong world positions, etc. Could anyone with a space science
background tell me if the relative motions of star systems cause the
positions to "appear" to change on the map due to it being only a 2D
representation, and effectively being a map of jump space rather than real
space?

(2) Why aren't the Core Worlds explored? Unlikely that they're not explored
- - the data just isn't available to your average person. If the Syleans had a
strong feeling that to build their power, etc. they needed to keep
genetically clean, they might well have avoided a lot of contact with the
surrounding worlds, preferring to keep to their developed core and not
'taint' their populace (either genetically, or through the influx of foreign
religions, ideas, etc.). After 650 years (or whatever), Cleon either thinks
that his people should have freedom from these restraints, or that the
profits out there are just too good to waste, or that his people are now
sufficiently proud and dedicated to the Sylean homeworlds that it is safe to
expose the general populace to external influences.

Anyone care to comment?

Andy Lilly :-)
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)

P.S. I'm trying to contact the following people (your old e-mail addresses
seem to be invalid):
Sean Harradine
Ralph Ferneyhough
Mike Lowery
Matt Johnston
Markus Sova
Sami Ovaskainen
Logan Alisdair
Bob Coffey
Paul James
PLEASE CONTACT ME!


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:15:42 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> And this *alone* is a good reason to dump the idea. It screws up the
> flavor of the game. It also not only makes piracy *possible*, but
> *easy*. I watch you jump out, jump to your destination ahead of you,
> and have a day or so to position myself where my best guess readings of
> your jump out say you will jump in. Not good.

	Imho its good that a Gazelle jumps faster than a Jayhawk,
	if both attempt 1 jump 1 or 2.

> Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
> parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
> *seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
> diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.

	Thats why we extended the save jump point to size^2*10 light
	seconds, and the dangerous to (size-1)^2*10 light seconds.

> My tracking station with it's huge antenna spots you, beams a message
> to a waiting task force and next thing you know, you are surrounded by
> ships. Worse, if they can do multiple jumps, they can jump in, acquire
> you as a target, fire, and jump out before your return fire gets there.

	Ok my system would change defence, e.g. 6 ships waiting 1 au
	around an large gas giant, could jump to an incoming ship (which
	needs about 40 hours to orbit) in some seconds, but as any jumps
	must face directly towards a mass, it will hit the same orbit
	of 1440 light seconds and will be perhaps 720 light seconds away.

> J-1 ships would be sitting ducks.

	never heard about the term duck hunter for a slow ship.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 07:22:11 -0700
Subject: Re: The Aptitude Idea

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Let me expand on my version of the idea a little then.  First a
> credit, the origin of this idea comes from my study of the
> Aftermath! system.
> 
> Possible Aptitudes  (2d6)/2,dn or (2d3)-1
> 
> Aggressiveness  - modifies combat type skills
> Charsima        - modifies interpersonal/social skills
> Esthetic        - modifies artistic skills
> Linguistic      - modifies communication/language skills
> Mechanical      - modifies technical/mechanical skills
> Natural         - modifies biological/wilderness/agurian skills
> Scientific      - modifies science/theory skills
> 
> foex:
> 
> Skill       Attribute +  Aptitude * Skill     Target
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Melee CBT   STR  (4)  +  AGG (5)  *   2         14
> 
>     [Character isn't Strong, but she is *very* aggressive and can make a
>     lot of use out of training!]
> 
> Melee CBT   STR  (10) +  AGG (1)  *   3         13
> 
>     [This Character is very Strong, but he's a pussy cat and even
>     though he has a lot of training he still isn't a super warrior.]
> 
> I haven't even *thought* about the numbers much yet.  I just like
> the idea of having a psychological component.  We probably all know
> people with "green thumbs" (high Natural), people that can look at
> something mechanical and it stops working (low Mechanical) or starts
> working (high Mechanical), and of course the "natural salesman,
> leader, cassinova" (high Charsima)

Now that you've made the idea a little clearer for me, I like the idea too.  I'd like to 
see this in an IG Combat Supplement.  The only problem here is that I think it will take 
a lot of work to complete such a system.  I feel it is beyond the scope of what we, or 
I'm, trying to reach with a T4 task fix.

Let me reiterate.  I really, really, like the idea.  I just think we are talking about 
months of work coming up with a clean system for those aptitude numbers.  

Am I wrong about this?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:11:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Well EXCUUUUSE ME! <G>
> 
> "Get the kerosene!  I'll get the wood!  We'll teach this heritic." <wink>
> 

No need to get the wood.....you can just use all that invalidated DGP 
material . . . ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:10:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:
[in response to the outline for M0]
> May I humbly (and desperately) recommend that all posts to IG in
> response to this be sent directly to IG rather than to this maillist?
> Even a digest may get out of hand on this one.

I disagree. Great things may come of discussions sparked by people's
replies to this outline. If they go to IG, we'll never have the chance to
arg^H^H^Hshare ideas.

- -- 
"Oh! Isn't that that game where the guys come out of the ship at night
and shoot things?" (overheard near my computer)




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:15:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Probability

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Trent Smith wrote:
> 
> >      Perhaps in future editions of T4, IG can include a paragraph or two
> > about such "Task System Options" (like they did with the multiple Initiative
> > rules) allowing individual refs to customize their games.  The "more
> > difficult" rolls could be an option, and so could the "skill-focused"
> > system. Now we all just need to agree as to what is the best way to achieve
> > these effects.

Kenneth said:

>  Excellent idea!  I'd like to see an official 'fix', even if it is an optional rule.

Well, since you're project leader, you might want to submit the final 
result of this Task system debate to IG . . . :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 08:19:47 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Trent Smith wrote:
>      Okay, I'm working from extremely vague memories based on skim-reading
> the DGP "Starship Operator's Manual" several years ago, but in that book
> didn't they state that the various jump-levels (J-1 thru J-6) were actually

(mucho snippage of some very scientific theory stuff)  Man!  For "only skimming the DGP 
Starship Op Manual one time several years ago", you've got one hell of a memory.

>      That, then, is my complaint.  You (Kenneth) seem to be assuming that
> the increased high-end capability of the J-6 engine should go hand in hand
> with increased low-end efficiency, but the way (IIRC) Jump-space(s) were
> explained, this assumption isn't true.  Accessing any of the various
> jump-levels (and misjump data leads us to believe that there are more than
> 6, but the higher ones are REALLY hard to access) leads to a week-long
> reaction regardless, 

Hold it right there.  You've just touch on the root of my problem.  Why?  Why do the 
various levels of jump space require a week of time regardless.  You've recalled the 
info in the Starship Op Manual correctly, but you are making my point for me.  I said in 
my last post that one of the main reasons that I don't buy the one-week-regardless 
system is that it has never been made clear why it is so.  Traveller goes into great 
detail about how other items work--and they usually make sense.  This is not so with 
jump space.  They just ask you to believe.

Yes, jump space is divided into levels--I'll buy that.  But, why does each level require 
a week?  Why not variable times.  Why not longer times?  Why any time at all?    

>  Can someone who has ready access to the DGP "Starship Operators" book either back me 	up or point out how and
> where I went wrong?  

Hey, I've got the Starship Op Manual.  Here's the section you referred to.  My comments 
are in [].

Pg. 10, Starship Operator's Manual, Jump Drive chapter, section on Theory:

The operation of jump drive is quite complex, and varying theories exist as to why it 
works.  Even the greatest scientists of the Imperium admit they do not fully understand 
the principles behind the workings of jump drive.  The following description, based in 
large part on the works of the Jump-space Institute at Deneb, is greatly simplified.

[See.  They don't really know how it works.  And below, they give no reason as to why it 
takes a week to travel the jump space levels.  It just is...  You must BELIEVE....]

In understanding jump drive, one must first understand jumpspace.  Following the Big 
Bang (some 15 billion years ago) a multitude of dimensions existed--far more that the 
four which we normally perceive.  

[I'd buy this.  Makes sense]

Within seconds, however, most of these dimensions collapsed into nothingness and were 
lost.  From that point on, we have the familiar three dimensions of space and the one of 
time.

However, the era of modern physics dawned with the realization that more dimensions than 
the four we know survived the Big Bang.  Modern cosmology places the number of existing 
dimensions at no fewer than 62.

[Hey, what was that post about the ANSWER?  Oh, that was 42--never mind.]

The vast majority of these alternate dimensions do not affect our everday life in 
anyway.  Beyond the first four dimensions, many of the others are in force only at the 
subatomic level, while the remaining three dozen are accessible only via jump drive.

The various jumpspace dimensions are described by modern physicistis as levels. Each 
jumpspace level has its own character, defined by the physical laws which operate there: 
 these laws are known as the level's weave.  A level's weave ranges from very loose 
(easily entered) to very tight (difficult to enter).

[What they have just said, is that it takes more energy to enter the higher levels, so 
more advanced jump drives require more fuel to generate the energy to rip open normal 
space and enter jump space.  They elaborate more on this aspect later, but I'm not going 
to type it all.  Check your book or take my word for it.]

[They go on to say that each level corresponds to the 6 jump levels attainable by 
j-drives.  The only mention of time in jump space is the next line below.]

Since jump drive is able to cover such distances in only seven days, jumpspace makes 
interstellar travel practical.

[Why?  Why?  Why?  Why?  Why?  Why do they not tell us why jump space requires about a 
week--no matter the level?  They go into such detail to explain how the rest of jump 
space works--why is time just a given?]



I submit to you again.  My idea of "faster" jump drives does not change any of the 
science behind the jump drive, the theory (except duration) behind jump space, or the 
economic/communication situation established in Traveller.

Besides, it feels better as well.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:35:29 +0100
Subject: Re: More Probabilites

Eris Reddoch wrote
     
     Liam McCauley wrote:
     > 
     > Joe Walsh wrote:
     > 
     >      [big snip]
     > 
     >      Perhaps if we could shift the whole table over by 3 points, it 
     >      would
     >      make more sense.
     
     Trying to shift the table by 3 points would be a pain...but we could
     shift everything up by 1d3 and have just about the same effect. 
     
     
     [snip, snip, wash and set]
     
     > I started a thread a week or so ago, saying that the to-hit chances 
     > in combat were too high and could be made more realistic by 
     > increasing difficulties by 1 or 2 levels (which is similar to 
     > changing the target number by 3 points).
      
     
Yeah, when I said increase the difficulty by 1 or 2 levels I *meant* shift 
everything up by 1d3 or 1d6 (whadya mean your telepathy isn't working?).

Personally, I think we should abandon the task system completely and 
convert to White Wolf's WOD system.

Hey, Joe, what were you saying about adding smileys?

Proot!
Liam
- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:28:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump (CORRECTION)

>From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 04:59:39 -0700
>Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
>
>Paul Walker wrote:
>> Well, I know how against hand waving everyone is, but since Jump Dirve
>> itself is hand waving, you could easily avoid this problem by saying that
>> Jump covers a minimum of 1 Parsec.
>
>Yeah, I've used this idea in a game before, Trent, but I like my stop watch
                                             ^^^^^
Uh, Yeah, I like your stop watch idea better too, but it was me, Paul, not
Trent. :)  Just don't want Trent to get labeled as a canon basher without
just cause. :)  BTW, your stop watch idea would help explain why ships
arrive at different locations in the system as well.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:28:03 -0500
Subject: Re: The Aptitude Idea

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 01:13:47 -0500
>Subject: The Aptitude Idea
>
>On 10/09/96 at 06:30 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:
>
>>>Aptitude could be a simple number (2 has been suggested), but better for
>>>it to be something that reflects the psychological makeup of the
>>>Character.
>
>>This has great potential.  
>
>Thank you. <g>

Your Welcome.  <smile>

Now a few comments

>Possible Aptitudes  (2d6)/2,dn or (2d3)-1

I think 1D3 for this would be perfrct.

>Aggressiveness  - modifies combat type skills
>Charsima        - modifies interpersonal/social skills
>Esthetic        - modifies artistic skills
>Linguistic      - modifies communication/language skills
>Mechanical      - modifies technical/mechanical skills
>Natural         - modifies biological/wilderness/agurian skills
>Scientific      - modifies science/theory skills

I would move Linguistic into the Charisma group, to make the group only six.
Sorta keeps the Traveller feel. :)

>I haven't even *thought* about the numbers much yet.  I just like
>the idea of having a psychological component.  We probably all know
>people with "green thumbs" (high Natural), people that can look at
>something mechanical and it stops working (low Mechanical) or starts
>working (high Mechanical), and of course the "natural salesman,
>leader, cassinova" (high Charsima)

This is good.  I agree with the ideas you've got here.  I am not quite yet
willing to give up on my skill specialty idea yet either.  Maybe there is
some way we could incorporate the two into a single idea.  foex, the
apptitudes would be either a 1 or 0 and the skill specialty would be a 0 to
2 (or 3) then the skill modifier would be gained by adding the two together.


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:36:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long) 

If players are allowed any say in assigning the values to the 
character attributes (as in matching attributes to die rolls 
or whatever your system is), then can't the player of a female PC
represent her lower strength level by simply choosing to give 
a lower number to that attribute? 

Conversely, if the player chooses to give a high strength to the
female PC, doesn't that simply mean they choose to play a 
stronger-than-typical woman?

Earl Wajenberg

P.S.:  I once GMed a game that had a Size attribute, describing your
mass.  When one player found out her Size 8 female PC weighed 160 lbs, 
she was a little taken aback and said, "But surely that's a *ladies'*
Size 8?"


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 06:58:10 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Re: RC Worlds: Spires (Long)]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------441B76E2759B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote: >
 >  Hi,
 > One of the players in my RC Campaign is from the planet Spires, and he
 > came up with idea of what the planet is like.  I took his ideas and
 > added a few here and there and twisted his ideas a bit and came up  > 
 > with this document.
 > I was interested in hearing what other people thought about it.  I  > 
 > know  Derek Stanley and others have pcs or Npcs from Spires.  I am  > 
 > sure they have different thoughts on the planet, but I was hoping we  
 > could combine our different ideas into one unified vision.  Or at  > 
 >least talk about the differences.

 > For those not using the RC, you could file off the serial numbers and
 > spit this out as a planet in Miliue Zero, maybe.
 >
 > Lewis
 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 > Spires  E894789-2
 >           Size: Large : D=12,800km           Atmosphere: Dense Tainted
 >           Hydrographics: 40%                 Population: 40 million
 >           Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level: High
 >           Tech Level: 2 (Circa 1600)            Star port:  Frontier
 >
 > World Description:
 >   Spires is a very new planet, only a few primitive plants had evolved
 >by -1385 when the planet was colonized.  The Second Imperium seeded the
 >planet with modified versions of Terran plants and animals.  These
 >species were genetically engineered to better survive in the dense
 >atmosphere.
 
 Okay time for me to rant again.  I hate ranting but unfortunately I've
 never seen anything that would indicate that Spires was ever colonized
 by the Rule of Man.  Or anything else, worlds colonized during anytime
 period are usually mentioned quite proudly in their background.  I feel
 from the limited information present and a number of key lines that
 Spiri are a minor race seeded by the ancients 300k ago.
 
 > Spires is mostly land, with 4 small seas, and dozens of large lakes
[snip]
 >only significant area where native species survive.
 
 Like it, fit's in with my ideas quite well.
 
 >  The planet currently is in an age of extreme vulcanism, with hundreds
 >of active volcanos. Earthquakes are also common. The volcanos spew tons
 >of rock and ash into the air tainting the atmosphere.  Visitors often
 >remark about the smell of the place, the volcanos also spew sulfur
 >compounds into the air, giving the entire planet the aroma of rotten
 >eggs.  This volcanism has also created a great deal of obsidian, with
 >which the populace turns into many different types of tools.
 
 I never imagined Spires smelling like a garbage dump, but okay.  I   
always though it was more along the line of an airborne virus that the   
local populace was totally immune to.  Harded to detect and far more   
incidious.  I like the idea of obsidian tools, pop bottle bottoms and    
china plates also make extremely nice projectile points, I took a course 
 in university.
 
 [snip]
 
 > History:
 >    Spires was colonized during the Rule of Man, by settlers from Terra
 >itself. During the Long Night, their civilization collapsed and they
 >regressed to a very primitive state. Since then their technological
 >development has been hampered by the fact that there are very few 
[snip]
 
       This is where in my bone of contention lies about the Spiri.  The
 line in POT reads "Lacking fossil fuels or significant surface deposits
 of useful metals, technological development stalled fairly early..."
 
         To a colonly put in place by and advanced civilization surface
 deposits of useful metals are nice but you know how to dig a mine.  To a
 developing civilization surface deposits of raw-materials are essential
 for technological development.  Look at Greece and China, huge surface
 deposits of Copper, often in nugget form.  With out this readilly
 accessable source of metals is it likely that these areas would have so
 quickly emerged from the neo-lithic.  Doubtful.  There are places in
 South America and Polonesia where people are still living a stone age
 existance.
 
 >the Imperium the Dawn League didn't think humans made "interesting
 >experiments" and they contacted the Spiri.
 
 This I like.  I personally find it rather distasteful that the 3rd
 Imperium would use the planet as an "anthropological laboratory for the
 observation of, and controlled experements on, social development."

More to come later...

Derek Stanley

- --------------441B76E2759B
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From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
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lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
>  Hi,
> One of the players in my RC Campaign is from the planet Spires, and he
> came up with idea of what the planet is like.  I took his ideas and
> added a few here and there and twisted his ideas a bit and came up with
> this document.
> I was interested in hearing what other people thought about it.  I know
> Derek Stanley and others have pcs or Npcs from Spires.  I am sure they
> have different thoughts on the planet, but I was hoping we could
> combine our different ideas into one unified vision.  Or at least talk
> about the differences.
> 
> For those not using the RC, you could file off the serial numbers and
> spit this out as a planet in Miliue Zero, maybe.
> 
> Lewis
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Spires  E894789-2
>           Size: Large : D=12,800km           Atmosphere: Dense Tainted
>           Hydrographics: 40%                 Population: 40 million
>           Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level: High
>           Tech Level: 2 (Circa 1600)            Star port:  Frontier
> 
> World Description:
>    Spires is a very new planet, only a few primitive plants had evolved
>by -1385 when the planet was colonized.  The Second Imperium seeded the
>planet with modified versions of Terran plants and animals.  These 
>species were genetically engineered to better survive in the dense 
>atmosphere.

Okay time for me to rant again.  I hate ranting but unfortunately I've 
never seen anything that would indicate that Spires was ever colonized 
by the Rule of Man.  Or anything else, worlds colonized during anytime 
period are usually mentioned quite proudly in their background.  I feel 
from the limited information present and a number of key lines that 
Spiri are a minor race seeded by the ancients 300k ago.

>    Spires is mostly land, with 4 small seas, and dozens of large lakes[snip]
>only significant area where native species survive.

Like it, fit's in with my ideas quite well.

>  The planet currently is in an age of extreme vulcanism, with hundreds 
>of active volcanos. Earthquakes are also common. The volcanos spew tons 
>of rock and ash into the air tainting the atmosphere.  Visitors often 
>remark about the smell of the place, the volcanos also spew sulfur 
>compounds into the air, giving the entire planet the aroma of rotten 
>eggs.  This volcanism has also created a great deal of obsidian, with 
>which the populace turns into many different types of tools.

I never imagined Spires smelling like a garbage dump, but okay.  I always 
though it was more along the line of an airborne virus that the local 
populace was totally immune to.  Harded to detect and far more incidious. 
 I like the idea of obsidian tools, pop bottle bottems and china plates 
also make extremely nice projectile points, I took a course in 
university.

[snip]

> History:
>    Spires was colonized during the Rule of Man, by settlers from Terra
>itself. During the Long Night, their civilization collapsed and they
>regressed to a very primitive state. Since then their technological
>development has been hampered by the fact that there are very few [snip]

	This is where in my bone of contention lies about the Spiri.  The 
line in POT reads "Lacking fossil fuels or significant surface deposits 
of useful metals, technological development stalled fairly early..."  

	To a colonly put in place by and advanced civilization surface 
deposits of useful metals are nice but you know how to dig a mine.  To a 
developing civilization surface deposits of raw-materials are essential 
for technological development.  Look at Greece and China, huge surface 
deposits of Copper, often in nugget form.  With out this readilly 
accessable source of metals is it likely that these areas would have so 
quickly emerged from the neo-lithic.  Doubtful.  There are places in 
South America and Polonesia where people are still living a stone age 
existance.  

>the Imperium the Dawn League didn't think humans made "interesting 
>experiments" and they contacted the Spiri.

This I like.  I personally find it rather distasteful that the 3rd 
Imperium would use the planet as an "anthropological laboratory for the 
observation of, and controlled experements on, social development." 

[snip]

> Government:
>     Spires is governed by the Guilds, the Guilds were set up millenia 
>ago, as a way to regulated trade.  Since then they have grown in power 
>and in scope. They now regulate almost all aspects of life.  The Guilds 
>have grown into a sizable, bureaucracy.  It can take several months for 
>news and information to travel from one side of the planet to the other, 
>because of this the Guilds are slow to react to unexpected problems.



>     To help solve this problem, every 10 years, the finest men and women
> come to Yuko, the capital of Spires, There they compete in the Contest of
> Champions.   The Contest of Champions is a series of races,
> athletic competitions, and mental puzzles.  The winner is made Archon, or
> supreme ruler of Spires.  The Archon is the nominal head of the Guilds, but
> has little to do with day to day business, but when a decision needs to be
> made, instead of forming a committee, the Archon decides.  He is kept up to
> date on issues, by a council of advisors.  The council is made up of the
> other top contestants in the Contest.  The Archons from previous years
> wander the planet as roving problem solvers.
> 
> Culture:
>         Most Spiri are very spiritual, and spiritual matters are given
> considerable thought.  All Spiri are given a basic education.  This
> education usually lasts 5 years. It concentrates on teaching students basic
> mathematics, and how to read and write.  A small amount of history and
> rhetoric are also taught.  The ability to think for oneself is instilled in
> all children at an early age.  The education starts at age 5, by the time
> the students turn 10, they are needed to work in the fields.
> 
>         The population of Spiri lives in many small villages, and a few large
> cities of several hundred thousand. Agriculture is the primary industry of
> the villages. Each of the small villages shares a common religious or
> spiritual belief.  Religion on Spires is very sectarian, when an
> irreconcilable disagreement over a spiritual matter arise, the solution,
> usually involves the minority leaving the community and setting up a new
> village somewhere else.  Off world anthropologists suggest that this also
> helps alleviate population pressure.
> 
>         The cities are much more metropolitan, they began as small towns on
> important trade routes.  Thousands of people eventually came to live and to
> prosper as merchants.  The mixing of people of many different faiths,
> created some conflict, but for the most part, the Spiri are nonviolent when
> it comes to Spiritual matters.  To help insure that disagreements remain
> non-violent, the Guild has prohibited the carrying of weapons.
> 
>         In the capital of Yuko, the Guilds have formed a center for higher
> learning, the Academy of Higher Thought.  Here the best and the brightest
> Spiri are educated. Children who have excelled in the basic education are
> sent to the Academy to learn more.  The Academy develops both the mind and
> the body.  Students are taught philosophy, history, logic, mathematics and
> what science the Spiri know. The body is developed through athletics and
> through the martial arts. Many Contest winners have received an education
> here.
> 
> Society:
>         The Spiri are a very spiritual people.  They follow many different
> creeds and beliefs, but the most common is a version of Plato's idea of
> forms, mutated through 5000 years of history.  The basic principle of the
> theory of forms states that for all objects there exists on another plane,
> the perfect form of that object. When one person says "chair," another knows
> what the first means, even though they might be thinking of another variety
> of chair.  It is because they both have a common language that "chairness"
> implies the same sort of object. A form, then is an extra-planar perfect
> definition.
> 
>     As to the radical variant of Platonic thought, it refers specifically
> to some of the conclusions of The Republic. There, Plato argued that the
> perfect form of government would be a benevolent dictatorship. Now, this
> obviously is in conflict with the nature of the Spiri.  Therefore, the
> Spiri accept Plato's Theory of Forms, his Rhetoric Style, and the Socratic
> Method, but reject the benevolent dictatorship.
> 
>     The Spiri view psionics as the ability to work on the Plane of Forms.
> They might view the benevolent dictatorship as possible of the Plane of
> Forms, but not in a flawed universe with flawed people. They would argue
> that a philosopher-king, even if he understood the Form of the Good, would
> be tainted by an imperfect universe.
> 
>         The Spiri believe that Plato was Philosopher King of the ancient
> civilization of Atlantis.  The Atlantis myth is a myth of mystically
> powerful people who, for a while, brought much good. Later, they became
> despotic. The exact location of Atlantis is quite disputed, most Spiri
> believe that Atlantis is on the mythical home of the Spiri, Earth.  Others
> believe that the Spiri were always on Spires, and that Atlantis is hiding
> somewhere on the planet.  These Spiri have set off on many great quests to
> find Atlantis.
> 
>         Once Spires joined the Reformation Coalition, it learned the truth,
> that Earth is not Atlantis, but people, technologically advanced people,
> but people none the less. This event has precipitated a spiritual crisis on
> Spires and some religions would have ended, or become more fundamental in
> their denial of reality. There are a number of cults which deny that Earth
> is the mythical Atlantis and would go off in search of the true
> Atlantians.
> 
> Spires only had a fragment of the Dialogues of Plato.  The copies that they
> did have have been copied and recopied, translated and retranslated over the
> millenia, the result is quite different than the originals.  Now that the
> planet has contact with other planets, it is able to get copies that are
> closer to the originals.  Many people have expressed an interest in reading
> the "new" dialogues, and the Academy has bought many copies from off world
> publishers and is distributing them across the country.  They are also sending
> wandering teachers, to discuss the significance of the new writings.  Other
> cults deny the new "rediscovered dialogues" and consider them false. The
> Academy is viewed by these people as either, in the best case, misguided,
> and in the worst, heretics.
> 
> Psi and the Spiri
>     The presence of psi among the Spiri is rare, and a trait which is
> passed in a matrilinear fashion, but only manifests itself in males of
> the Spiri. The families which possessed this trait quickly became
> important, and in a manner of speaking, the local gentry. Not that
> there are any classes among the Spiri, but the families possessing this
> trait came to be the mediators of disputes. The pursuit of psi powers
> among the Spiri has led to almost a cessation of aggressive tendencies
> and an almost fanatical devotion to development of the mind and
> philosophy. This focus on the development of the mind and the body has led
> to the Great Houses leading an aestic lifestyle, and they tend to have few
> children.  So, despite there power, the Psi among the Spiri do not often
> hold important posts in the government or bureaucracy, although they are
> usually treated with a certain degree of deference by all.
> 
>         The Great Houses of the Spiri believe that the psi ability originated
> among citizens of the long fabled Lost Continent of Atlantis. Their
> philosophical leanings are a radical variant of Platonic thought. The
> technology level is low by choice. While they accept the theories
> of forms, the reject the benevolent dictator on empirical grounds:
> there never has been one. Rather, they favor individual freedoms above
> all else and most of the government is geared towards protecting
> individual freedoms {6}.
> 
>         They are aware of the fear (and possibly hatred) that many outworlders
> feel towards individuals possessing psionic abilities. They are therefore
> careful in their use of it - only using it when necessary and for good.
> Other Spiri know about, but do not understand their abilities, but the Great
> Houses leave them alone, so they return the favor.  Some intellectuals have
> tried to research psionics.  The Great Houses don't mind this, every person
> much pursue his own destiny, and possibly an non-psionic will have insights
> that a psionic individual would not.
> 
>       The Spiri believe that outworlders place too much emphasis on
> technology and not enough on development of the mind. They fear the
> Oriflammi and their Centrist policies as it could change the very nature of
> Spiri Society. As such, they ally themselves very closely with the
> Federalists, and quietly enjoy the actions of those among Helios.

- --------------441B76E2759B--


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 528

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 
         2. Re: Cleon and the Marches 
         3. Re: Traveller gender issues (long) 
         4. Re: Teenage income
         5. Bureaucrat Character Class
         6. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         7. My religion
         8. (Fwd) Re: NIKITA
         9. (Fwd) Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        10. (Fwd) Re: T4 History vs. what has gone before 
        11. Appologies
        12. Re: Year 5 language
        13. Re: Anyone in the Wash DC area have hardbound?
        14. Re: Time Traveller 
        15. Milieu 0 Outline
        16. Re: Web Mail Acronyms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:06:16 -0400
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 

Well, I'll admit that I have not been following this thread 
very carefully, because I am happy enough with the system we 
use in our game, and so wasn't shopping for another.  But since 
there are shoppers on the list, I'll desribe our system and run 
the risk of saying something redundant or non-sequitur.  I think 
ours is a pretty slick system.

It involves few, if any tables.  All tasks are resolved by rolling 
percentile dice against a percentile figure.  This figure may be 
an attribute or a skill (or other things, if the GM throws them 
at you) adjusted up or down if circumstances make the task easier 
or harder than "normal" according to the GM.

Example:  You want to dodge a blow in a fist-fight.  You roll 
against your agility attribute.  If you're pretty agile, that 
attribute might be 85%.  So you want to roll 85% or lower on the 
percentile dice.

Critical hits:  If you roll *very* low, you have a "critical hit" 
and something extra-good happens.  "Very low" means you roll 0X% 
on your dice, when the stat you rolled against was XY%.  Thus, 
05% is a critical hit if you rolled against 57%.  In a fist-fight, 
a critical hit would typically mean you KOed your opponent.  
In a gun-fight, it would mean you were able to hit *exactly* the
right spot for your purpose -- a momentary sharpshoot.  For various 
skills, the GM usually gets creative.

Critical misses:  The down side is the very *high* roll, the "critical
miss."  You critically miss if you roll higher than 9X% against a 
stat of XY%.  Thus, 96% is a critical miss against 57%

Learning rolls:  If you have used a skill or attribute successfully 
in the course of a session, you can make a learning roll at the end of 
the session.  You roll against the stat, but this time you want to 
roll *higher* than the stat (so learning is easy when you're a beginner 
but slows down as you get better).  If you succeed, the stat goes up 
by one "learn rate," which we calculate from the values of the 
attributes involved.  It is typically 2 to 5 percentage points.

We like the "flavoring" that critical hits and misses give, and the 
automatic advancement system, with no GM judgements needed.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:00:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches 

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> 
> I think there are a few controversial findings indicating that
> early Homo sapiens may go back about 900K.  Can't remember for
> sure, though.
> 
> Earl

Actually I beleive that that number should be more like 90K not 900K 
we're looking at Homo Erectus back then.

Austrolopithicus 3,000,000+
Homo Habilus 2,000,000-1.6 million
Homo Erectus 1.6 to 300-400k
Early Archaic Homo Sapiens round about 300k
Late Archaic Homo Sapiens 100k-300k
Modern Homo Sapien 30-100k

If you want to know the morphological differences I'd be happy to tell 
you but it's a bit of a long talk so I'll wait till I get a responce on 
that.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:07:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long) 

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> 
> If players are allowed any say in assigning the values to the
> character attributes (as in matching attributes to die rolls
> or whatever your system is), then can't the player of a female PC
> represent her lower strength level by simply choosing to give
> a lower number to that attribute?
> 
> Conversely, if the player chooses to give a high strength to the
> female PC, doesn't that simply mean they choose to play a
> stronger-than-typical woman?
> 
> Earl Wajenberg
> 
> P.S.:  I once GMed a game that had a Size attribute, describing your
> mass.  When one player found out her Size 8 female PC weighed 160 lbs,
> she was a little taken aback and said, "But surely that's a *ladies'*
> Size 8?"

For a good system for defining Male and Female differences in morphology 
look at the Harn Master system.  

First the character generates a frame.  

Scant/Light/Regular/Heavy/Massive--  This give you an idea as to the 
general skeletal morphology of the individual and an indication of 
general bulk.  Women roll with a -3 on this giving them on average Light 
Frames.

Then the character's Height is generated.  From the Height and Frame the 
characters' weight is interpolated from a table.  Scant and Light Frames 
have lower body weights and Heavy and Massive frame have highter body 
weights.  +-10% & +-20%

Then the characters generate their strenght.  There strenght is related 
directly to their weight and characters who only weigh 100 lbs have 
minus's.  Oddly as a physical characteristic the charater can be 
overweight, but the strenght statistic is modified by their unmodified 
weight not their modified obese weight.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:18:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Teenage income

On  1 Oct 96 at 11:10, Rob Prior spewed:

> >teenagers/students don't have high disposable  income, guys!
> 
> Actually, teenagers (and young adults) have a _higher_ disposable
> income than most adults.  Why?  Because many live at home and pay no
> room and board.

I can vouch for this...  When I was growing up and living at home, I 
was working tons of hours and making $150-200 a week.  I spent a 
little bit of it on gas and insurance for the car, the rest...went to 
local bookstores, record shops, and of course, the local gameshops...

Now, I'm lucky if I can scrounge the $20-25 to buy 1 thing a month, 
and often don't get to do that.

Stu "whose disposable income is spent on disposable diapers" Dollar
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:20:35 EDT
Subject: Bureaucrat Character Class

I wrote this up last night.  I noticed that someone suggested that there
might be some interest in a bureaucrat-type character in the upcoming
Milieu 0 books.  Maybe this will help.  I will also be posting this on my
web site in the URL

http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/careers/

The format will be similar to the appearance in the T4 core rulebook. 
You can also get Allen Shock's Pirate, James Gariss' Secret Agent, and my
own Journalist there as well.

Any questions or comments are welcome.  Please be patient if I don't
answer right away.  Real life has been very busy for me int he last few
week and will be for the next few.

**********

Marc Miller's Traveller - Bureaucrat Career Description
by Scott Galliand

	To run any government, the politicians and leaders of that
society need an (usually) efficient organization to run and maintain the
institutions that make up that government.  These oraganizations are the
government bureaucracies, and the basic component of these organizations
is the bureaucrat.
	Bureaucrats can be found anywhere in any government.  When the
down-and-out citizen who just lost his job is looking for assistance in
ending his unemployment, it is the bureaucrat who assists him in getting
the required forms completed so he may get his unemployment check and
other possible entitlements.  It is the bureaucrat who does all the
research on a situation for an ambassador to negotiate, as well as runs
his embassy offices while the ambassador is conducting business.  
	Bureaucrats aren't always the easiest people with which to deal. 
The common bureaucrat at times as a tendency to "hide behind the rules"
when dealing with a situation that is too unique for his experiences. 
The bureaucrat also has a tendency to become "set in his ways", not
allowing change to occur or to occur very slowly when such a situation
occurs.  Some citizens sometimes find it daunting to deal with the huge
bureaucracy of his government, and the bureaucrat can seem only as an
unhelpful cog in a relentless and uncontrolled machine.
	Regardless, without the bureaucrat, a government or even
corporation could not run efficiently.
ROUTINE TASKS:Shuffling files, researching proposals, dealing with
citizen's complaints/problems, acting as an interface between the
government/corporate entity and the outside agencies & citizens.

ENLISTMENT:* 8-,DMs:
+1 if previously served in the Navy, Marines, or Army
+1 if College graduate
+2 if College Grad. with Adv. Degree
+2 if Soc 8+
INJURY:9-, DM +2 Int 8+
COMMISSION:7-, +2 if Edu 8+, +2 if Soc 8+
PROMOTION:** O1-O5: 7-, +1 if Soc 8+; O6+: 3-, +2 if Soc B+
CONTINUANCE:9-

SKILLS

1. PHYSICAL

1. -1 Str
2. -1 End
3. Brawling
4. Blade Combat (Cascade)
5. Brawling
6. Gun Combat (Cascade)

2. MENTAL

1. +1 Edu
2. +1 Int
3. Academic (Cluster)
4. Computer
5. Administration
6. Perception

3. EDUCATIONAL

1. Administration
2. Technical (Cluster)
3. Academic (Cluster)
4. Business (Cluster)
5. Computer
6. Bureaucracy (Cluster)

4. SOCIAL

1. Bribery
2. Carousing
3. Streetwise
4. Administration
5. Diplomacy
6. +1 Soc

5. CAREER

1. Administration
2. Academic (Cluster)
3. Clandestine (Cluster)
4. Business (Cluster)
5. Bureaucracy (Cluster)
6. Bureaucracy (Cluster)

6. BACKGROUND

1. Bureaucracy (Cluster)
2. Computer
3. Business (Cluster)
4. Academic (Cluster)
5. Technical (Cluster)
6. Bureaucracy (Cluster)

RANK AND SERVICE SKILLS
All:    Bureaucracy-1
         Computer-1
O4+: Administration-1
         Bribery-1

SKILL ELIGIBILITY
1 skill per year
1 skill per term for Commission
1 skill per term for Promotion

TABLE OF RANKS
Non-Commisioned                    
E1-E4 Bureaucrat
E5-E9 Senior Bureaucrat

Commissioned
01 Sub-Task Leader
02 Task Leader
03 Division Manager
04 Project Manager
05 Senior Project Manager
06 Assistant Undersecretary
07 Undersecretary 
08 Secretary

MUSTERING OUT TABLES
Cash Table (in Credits):
Die Roll
1. 5000
2. 10000
3. 20000
4. 30000
5. 50000
6. 100000

Max 3 rolls. +1 if Gambling-1+
Benefits Table:
Die Roll
1. Low Passage
2. +1 Int
3. +2 Edu
4. Middle Passage
5. Weapon
6. High Passage
7. TAS Membership

+1 if O5+

NOTES:

*  I have included bonuses for college degrees and service in the
military in the enlistment roll.  In the U.S. government, you get a
certain number of "points" for various different things.  One of these is
the college degree you have.  It is beneficial in some areas to have a
college degree.  If you have a higher degree (Masters or better) your
chances of getting a position are better.  You also get "points" for
serving in one of the military services when you apply for a job after
retiring.  

(Question: Should I consider the Scout or Agent careers as military
services to allow them to have this benefit when applying for entry into
the service?).

** Promotion might be a little confusing.  There are two options.  I have
slightly based the career on a little experience with the U.S. government
bureaucratic system.  In this system, up to a certain level, the
bureaucracy is hired and is promoted through merit and personal
preference.  Progression through this segment of the system is slower
than some other careers, thus the 7- for the roll up to the O5 level. 
Above O5, this is the "Secretary" level.  All of these are primarily
appointed by the chief executive of the state in question and aren't
permanent (usually changes when a new administration is elected in
democratic systems or at the whim of the executive in a non-democratic). 
Advancement after this point should be slowed and based solely on the
influence the character has within the government or with the chief
executive.

.1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. All
rights reserved.

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:25:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

Marc Miller writes:

>Outline:
>
>Introduction (and concept)
>History
>    1. Antecedents

   It may also be appropriate to include some details about the last days of
the Second Imperium (Rule of Man), and how Sylea came to be the seat of one
of the last emperors.

>The Expansion Process
>    1. Exploration
>    2. Contact / ReContact
>    3. Trade Overtures
>    4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)

   As with the Roman Empire (and to a degree the United States), all these
things would have been used and more, including just plain old fashion
conquest.  "By whatever means necessary to expand the empire."  Of course as
the Third Imperium matures, this attitude would change--the desire for
stability, and the sense that might doesn't necessarily make right.  But this
would be a very expansionistic period, and those who have too many scruples
would be given posts as minor bureaucrats.

>The First Wave
>    1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
>        border of the Third Imperium.

   Without question, the scouts would proceed far ahead of the borders of the
empire.  This is only prudent--because if the Third Imperium has TL 12 and is
the big kid on the block, it is entirely possible that there is an empire out
there that is just as advanced (or even more advanced) and is an even
*bigger* kid on *his* block.  Knowledge of that fact would allow you to
prepare for the threat before the bigger kid invaded your neighborhood.

>    2. Opportunities

  f. con men/women
  g. ruthless business persons
  h. adventurers (in the general sense--not necessarily PCs)
  i.  criminals on the run, and the hired guns that pursue them through space

   In other words, in addition to the good, you also get the bad and the
ugly....

>Structure of Organizations
>1. Structure of the Sylean Federation
>2. Structure of the Third Imperium
>3. Structure of the Vilani Homeworlds
>4. The MegaCorporations
>5. Local Companies
>6. AAB Repositories

   Assuming that Milieu 0 will one day go there....

  7. Structure of the Easter Concord
  8. Structure of the Old Earth Union
  9. Structure of the Dingir League
 10. Structure of the Vegan Polity

   Of course contact with the Solomani Rim could be a sourcebook by itself,
so you may or may not want to broach the subject at this point.

>
>Library Data
>1. Personalities
>		a. Cleon (Emperor)
>		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to
>adventurers)
>		c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu
>Labs)
>		d. Frank Repzinski XVII

   Who of course invented the transmultiple-inducing thermal corrective
distributive, and other things we later take for granted in the 1110s.
		
>2. Places
>	a. Terra
>	b. Vland
>	c. The Great Rift
>	d. Sylea
>	e. Antares

   And what to say of Terra?  Would they know of the existence of the Old
Earth Union in Year 0?  If not, then is Terra this place where the Solomani
came from that probably no longer exists (in other words, presumed decimated
at the end of the Second Imperium)?  You can't say that it is the world on
which humanity evolved, since that theory hasn't been proposed yet.  Seems
like there should be some mistaken reasoning at play here which would
preclude the Syleans from rushing rimward to contact their brethern.  Maybe
they try and the OEU and other governments react so negatively that the
Syleans rule out further contact for a while.

>3. Things
>		a. AAB (Vilani repository of all knowledge)
>		b. Fusion Plus
>		c. The Warrant of Restoration (the document that establishes the Third
>              Imperium)
>		d. Scout Cruiser

   Just make sure that it doesn't have a somewhat dispersed structure,
consisting of a saucer section (for the bridge, weapons and crew quarters,
etc.), which is connected to a cylinder section (engineering, shops, shuttle
bay), and that the cylinder section doesn't have a couple of engine pods
connected to it by long booms.  Oops, sorry, I'm thinking of a battlecrusier.

>5. Maps
>a. Sector Map of the Core Sector (allows some exploration without buying
>    First Survey)

   *Ideally* the star locations on this map should match up with _Atlas of
the Imperium_, but it may be too late to undo the damage in T4 anyway. <sigh>

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:30:45 -0400
Subject: My religion

Well, I myself am a Frisbeterian. I beleive that when you die, your soul
goes up on the roof and you can't get it down!

:)

Allen


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:15:27 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: NIKITA

On 10 Oct 96 at 10:15, B Lynch-Blosse spewed:

> <<snip>>
> >The American remake with Bridget Fonda is "Point of No Return".
>                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is correct...

Either that, or its the most amazing set of coincidences I've ever
seen.  La Femme Nikita does it better, if you can live with subtitles
though...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:15:27 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Milieu 0 Outline

On  9 Oct 96 at 20:27, David Joseph Smart spewed:

> May I humbly (and desperately) recommend that all posts to IG in
> response to this be sent directly to IG rather than to this
> maillist? Even a digest may get out of hand on this one.

I disagree...

Feedback from others might be good on our ideas.  No 1 person's ideas
are so great that somebody else might not be able to build on 1 of
them.  Besides which, this is exactly the kind of thing the list was
for...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:15:27 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: T4 History vs. what has gone before 

On  9 Oct 96 at 19:34, Susan M. Shock spewed:

>         In an attempt to figure out how the history of the Imperium
>         is going
> I was quite surprised at the variation in some of these dates.
> Obviously, we don't know why this variation exists. Purely
> speculative, but here are some ideas why;
> 
> 1.) Legal reasons. This doesn't seem likely, since Marc supposedly

As u say, hard to imagine

> 2.) Lack of reference material; in other words, the folks at IG
> don't own a copy of the Imperial Encyclopedia. Is this likely?

Very unlikely to think that MM wouldn't have MULTIPLE copies of a book
that he is credited with the design of, after all...

> 3.) A desire to assert control over the Traveller universe and say
> "this is my game; it will be made according to MY vision of how and
> when things occured."

Possible...

How about this 1:

4)  Noticing that most of the dates listed in the newer reference are
rounded off numbers (mostly even 50's or 100's).  What if historical
data for previous events is sketchy in year 0.  What if MM wants
intentionally to leave it sketchy...

14 years is not a big thing in a frame of reference which extends
3700+ years in the future.  Our own history is arbitrary on fixing
dates for historical events.  

Most historians fix the date for the collapse of the Western Roman
Empire as 476 AD, when the Leader of the Ostrogoths lopped the head of
the last Emperor off in favor of crowning himself King...  But really,
the Ostrogoths had pretty much dictated who was Emperor since 452, so
really, the Emperor ceased to be an Emperor in fact for 24 years prior
to the demise of the last 1...  So is it 452, or 476?  You could make
a case for either 1.  Or probably even 1 earlier than that, since the
Western Roman Empire was little more than an Adriatic state even
before 452...

Need a more recent example?  Take a look at WW2.  Most historians fix
the start date of the conflict with the invasion of Poland in 1939. 
Really, the Japanese and Chinese had been going at it hammer and tongs
as far back as 1931 in Manchuria.  This is 60 years ago, and the
historians still can't get it right...

My point:  Its hard to fix arbitrary dates on events that take 
several years to evolve.  Maybe being off 14 years isn't that bad. 
Maybe MM didn't want to get that detailed.  Maybe he wants to rewrite
a lot of the DGP stuff to something he likes better.  The fact that
there's 14 years difference for a historical event is NOT all that
significant, and certainly doesn't change the broad sweep of history
in the Traveller universe, IMNSHO...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:15:40 -0700
Subject: Appologies

Before anyone gets on my case about echoing that entire message back on 
Spires I'd like to issue an appology right now.

I lost the message, recovered it and some how tacked it back to back with 
itself.  Sorry about the wasted bandwidth.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:57:11 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Year 5 language

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> > stil.  Aftr tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrion
> > vud fin it ezi tu understan esh ozer.  Ze drems of ze E.U.  vud finali kum
> > tru.
> This is stolen from something published around 50 years ago, and then
> referring to the US.

My fortune program some time ago displayed an essay written by Mark Twain,
which is very similar to the thing above.  So it's probably a little older
than 50 years :-)

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:31:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Anyone in the Wash DC area have hardbound?

Bill Rutherford wrote:
> 
> Still waiting (tho I picked up my softbound some time ago...) - Bill

Bill, have you ever gotten your hardbound?  
I'm still waiting, patiently......

John
________________________________________________________________________
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:52:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Time Traveller 

Joel Lovell writes:

 "The implication that an omnipotent force protects casuality rankles my 
  hard science fiction neck hairs," 

and then describes an alternative system that allows for alteration of 
history.  To each their own, of course, and I'm sure your system can 
be used for good gaming.  At least your system is consistent, whereas 
many mutable-time-travel stories don't worry about consistency until 
it's too late.

However, *my* hard science fiction neck hairs bristle at the idea of 
a vast (potentially infinite) spectrum of parallel worlds (your 
femto-second time ripples) laid out in a new dimension of "hyper-time,"
so to call it.  It looks like epicycles to me.

To the suffering time-traveller, our timelock effect probably does 
look like a supernatural genie guarding history.  But it is really 
more like the "omnipotent force" that frustrates the builders of 
perpetual motion machines or those who would trisect angles or calculate
the last digit of pi.

If you try to calculate the last digit of pi, I don't know how far you'll
get before you give up, but I know you won't succeed.  Likewise, in the 
merely four-dimensional system of timelocked time-travel, I don't know 
what will happen to prevent you from changing the past, but I know you 
won't do it, not because of a mysterious temporal force acting on you, 
but because I have reliable historical information that you *didn't* 
do it.

Also, there's always this loophole: You CAN "re-write the history books"
if the books were wrong to begin with.  ("But I thought that, in fourteen
hundred and ninety-three Columbus sailed the boundless sea."  "No, no, in 
fourteen hundred and ninety-TWO Columbus sailed the ocean BLUE."  "Damn, 
so we didn't get him here a year early after all.")

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 11:54:44 -0400
Subject: Milieu 0 Outline

>This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we think we
>want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback about
>   A. What you want to see in the book?
>   B. What elements in the outline should be expanded?

I'd also include some detail about some of the opposistion to the new
Imperium, both internal and external.  I think some of the internal
politics would be really interesting, scheming nobles, duels, etc.  I
really like the flavor that you gave the Imperium in T4, its the best
part of the book.  It feels different than the 1100 Imperium, which it should.  

As for the external threats, what opposistion does the Imperium face,
pocket empires, Vargr corsairs, etc.  I think a quick overview of some
of the closer pocket empires would be interesting.  
Thanks,

Lewis Roberts
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why Don't Cannibals Eat Clowns?  lewis@chara.gsu.edu
A:They taste funny!                http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Web Mail Acronyms

David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> writes:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>  
> > OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say
> > that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?
> 
> BTW - By the way,
> IMHO - In my humble opinion
> IMNHO, IMNSHO - In my not (so) humble opinion
> IIRC - If I recall correctly,
> LOL - Lots (loads) of laughs (I think)

Actually, that one means "Laughing Out Loud."

> ROFLMAO - Rolling on the floor, laughing my a.. off

Others are:

AFAIK - As Far As I Know.
FYI   - For Your Information.
FNG   - F*cking New Guy/Gal.
FWIW  - For What It's Worth.
OTOH  - On The Other Hand.
TIA   - Thanks In Advance.
TTFN  - Ta Ta For Now.
WRT   - With Regard To.
YMMV  - Your Mileage May Vary.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Some people let their conscience be their guides.  I make mine
    my accomplice." - Mike Newsome <root@miken.shands.ufl.edu>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #528
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 529

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Zhodani Contact Prior to Year 0
         2. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         3. Re: Web Mail Acronyms
         4. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         5. Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)
         6. Re: POOF!
         7. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         8. Re: More Probabilities
         9. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        10. Re: Time Traveller
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510
        12. Re: T4 History vs. what has gone before
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510
        14. T4 still not in Germany
        15. Future Religions
        16. Dating inconsistancies
        17. Re: Traveller gender issues (long) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:53:13 -0700
Subject: Zhodani Contact Prior to Year 0

I'm not sure my other message got through.  But here's my .02CR anyway.   

Looking in my CT Zhodani Supplement I notice the Zhodani Timeline.  Before
contacting the Imperial Traders in 50 the Zhodani had established contact
with several other species.  For example the two most recent contacts
(before 0) were the Vargr in -2800 and then the Vilini in -2000.  I'm not
sure but I seem to recall the Vargr and Vilini having contact with Imperium
well before year 0.  So this allows quite a bit of time for not only
knowledge of the Zhodani to meet the Imperium but quite possibly the chance
of Zhodani to physically be within the Imperium.  This could explain some
questions about Zhodani during Mileau 0.  IMHO.

Brad Urwiller  
ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:19:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

It would be good to see something about the problems of the early third
Imperium too. Right now one gets the impression that everyone in the former
Sylean federation is happy, and that nearly every world contacted is equally
happy to drop its existing plans and join the Imperium. There must be some
exceptions to this - it would be good to see them detailed.       

- -people inside the Imperium who opposed the replacement of the Federation
government (was it democratic?) with an autocratic Imperium
- -people inside the Imperium who think the Imperium has no business imposing 
its rule on other worlds
- -on the flip side, people who think the Imperium should be much more 
agressive in expanding, and replace particularly unpleasant local governments
on new member worlds with more pleasant (and pro-imperial) ones
- -economic disruptions inside the Imperium - fusion+ is a new enough technology
that the repurcussions must still be settling out; some people have become
rich, in the long term everyone is going to become comfortable, but in the
short term there are a lot of unemployed power plant engineers out there
(and a lot of people who still haven't learned to drive their 3000 mph
speeders very well yet...and probably a handful of people who are realizing
that a small organization can afford to buy a fusion+/thruster powered
cutter, and that a fusion+/thruster powered cutter can flatten a 
large city.)

Outside the imperium - do worlds only join the Imperium voluntarily? Are
there some that have been annexed militarily instead? (Possibly after a 
war that they started, or possibly even after a war that the Imperium
provoked.) Are other pocket empires - some of which might be comparable in
size to the young Imperium - organizing to resist the wave of expansion?

One of the best things about the Reform Coalition setting in TNE was that
it had some moral ambiguity - within the RC there were different factions
with equally valid views of how future expansion should be carried out,
and there were legitimate questions about the morality of the RC's
expansion and its long-term stability. It would add a considerable depth to 
the new Imperium if it had similar grey areas (even if we all know in our  
hearts that the Imperium is the right side.)

In addition, it would be good to include all the appropriate rules
modifications needed for the new setting - world generation tables that
produce Milleu 0 tech levels, not 1107 tech levels, for example - in
*both* books - not everyone will buy the Atlas. 

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@astro.ucla.edu/bmac@igpp.llnl.gov

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:21:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Web Mail Acronyms

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> LOL - Lots (loads) of laughs (I think)

   "Laughing Out Loud"

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:29:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

On  9 Oct 96 at 16:42, FarFuture@aol.com spewed:

Marc, 

> MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium
> The essential background for adventuring in Traveller is provided in
> a number of Milieu books, each detailing an era in the long history
> of mankind in space. Milieu 0 chronicles the emergence of the Third
> Imperium from the Long Night, extending its reach to re-explore and
> re-conquer the vast interstellar territories that have been
> untouched for 1700 years. Covers the early years of the Third
> Imperium, its history, structure, economics, and library data. Also
> includes many adventure hooks and adds direction to players and
> Referees.
> 
> FIRST SURVEY
> This vital companion to Milieu 0 is an atlas of the 50 or so sectors
> that were the Vilani Empire and its surrounding territories. The
> star systems of the Sylean Federation are well defined. Farther and
> farther out, systems are less well-defined. Each adventuring group
> determines its own survey results for each system they visit. Each
> page is a map of a single sector; systems are marked, but not
> defined or identified except for some specified areas.
> 
> 
> Outline:
> 
> Introduction (and concept)
> History

A nice historical piece on the 1st & 2nd Imperium would be a good 
idea.  It should be written from the point of view of the Syleans in general, 
and Cleon in particular.  Such an essay should cover the following 
points.

History of Sylea under the 1st & 2nd Imperiums, as well as during the 
Long Night...
Sylean slanted view of the history of the 1st Imperium
Sylean view of the Interstellar Wars and 1st contact with Terran 
Confederation
Sylean view of the history of the 2nd Imperium
Ancestral myth of Cleon's family connections to the last Emperor of 
the Rule of Man...

A lot of this would be relatively incomplete, and incorrect relative 
to later essays on the same, as the Syleans don't have access to the 
records of the thousands of worlds outside their own domain, and such 
a point of view would be distorted as well due to Cleon's desired 
succession myth...  

I can see a lot of adventure ideas coming out of PC's just discovering that 
the view they've been spoonfed about the history of various 
things/worlds/peoples in the earlier Imperiums just being plain wrong...

I might take a stab at some of this later, if I get the chance...

>     1. Antecedents
>         a. The last decades of the Long Night
>         b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third
>         Imperium
>     2. Syleas Rise
>         a. Economic Pressures

Need for raw materials to fuel growing technical and economic 
strength.

b.  Political Pressures...  Lots of nobles eager to expand their 
domains within the Federation...

c. Manifest Destiny.  

>     3. Establishment of the Third Imperium
>     4. Interactions and Conflicts
>        a. Short Wars
>        b. Diplomatic Campaigns
>        c. Contact Campaigns
>        d. Secret Agent Operations
> The Expansion Process
>     1. Exploration
>     2. Contact / ReContact
>     3. Trade Overtures
>     4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)

e.  Coup D'Etat
f. Assassination

> 
> The First Wave
>     1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the
>     formal
> border of the Third Imperium.

Power struggle, and political differences between powers that be?  
Megacorps wanting to expand boundaries vs. Naval desire for 
defensible borders...

>     2. Opportunities
>         a. Free Traders
>        b. Scouts
>        c. Mercenaries
>        d. Academics
>         e. The Man Who Would Be King

E. sounds intriguing...  Pocket Empires, anyone???

f. Colonists (47th century Oklahoma Land Rushes)

>     3. Problems
>  a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
>  b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 

c. Overly ambitious nobles wanting to build their own empires...
d. Nationalism of outside worlds/empires...
e. Clashes between Megacorps over rights to exploit various 
worlds/resources (I could see this being a major headache for the 
Early Imperium
f. Palace Intrigue (not every noble is going to enjoy having been 
reduced to the status of figurehead, not every 2nd son is going to be 
contented with being titleless)

> Structure of Organizations
> 1. Structure of the Sylean Federation
> 2. Structure of the Third Imperium

a. Intelligence Services
b. Diplomatic Services

> 3. Structure of the Vilani Homeworlds
> 4. The MegaCorporations

a. Offices to settle local disputes between conflicting claims over 
worlds/resources...

> 5. Local Companies
> 6. AAB Repositories
> 
> Library Data
> 1. Personalities
>   a. Cleon (Emperor)
>   b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives
>   assignments to
> adventurers)
>   c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the
>   Zhunastu
> Labs)
>   d. Frank Repzinski XVII

Who is Frank Repzinski, and why have there been 16 before him???  
Intriguing...  

There should be a lengthy biography of Cleon I, as his personality 
makeup is going to have a big effect on the early years of the 
Imperium.

e. Influential members of the Imperial Family
f. High ranking nobles within Sylea

> 
> 2. Places
>  a. Terra

Governmental Structure, short history of Old Terran Union during long 
night, what they're doing in year Zero...

>  b. Vland

Same for Vland...

>  c. The Great Rift
>  d. Sylea
>  e. Antares

OK, I can see a-d, but why Antares?  Seems to me its just another 
backwater in Year 0...

> 3. Things
>   a. AAB (Vilani repository of all knowledge)

This should be rather incomplete, inaccurate, in year 0 of course...

>   b. Fusion Plus
>   c. The Warrant of Restoration (the document that establishes the
>   Third
> Imperium)
>   d. Scout Cruiser

e. Merchant Exploration Cruiser
f. Diplomatic Courier

> 4. Historical Data
> 5. Maps
> a. Sector Map of the Core Sector (allows some exploration without
> buying First Survey) b. Sample World

World writeups on the core worlds of Sylea, as well as Vland, Terra, 
would be good...

> Rules
>  1. Diplomatic Interactions
>  2. Player generic Imperials
>  3. Playing Vilani

Keep the longevity differences of Vilani from DGP, modified if 
necessary.  Makes them just a little more alien...  Other than that, 
I'd stick to previous published work on them as much as desirable, 
possible...

4. Playing Solomani (and the differences between Early Imperium 
Solomani, and later post-Hypothesis Solomani)

Other suggestions:

Perhaps a short Rubicon Cross/Exit Visa style adventure to fire a few 
imaginations...
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:17:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)

I've just recently become interested in Traveller again.  I previously
played Classic Traveller, but lost interest with MegaTraveller, etc...

I was wondering if there any resources which talked about any of the
following:

languages - I assume that many Earth languages were spread throughout
the Imperium, but what other languages are there?  I assume that the
other branches of humanity also have multiple languages.  What's the
Imperium standard?  Is there one?  What are the languages of the
Zhodani, etc..?  There are word generation charats in the various old
CT race books, but not one for the Vilani.

religions - Someone else mentioned that they wanted to do a future
history of Earth's major religions.  I'd be interested in what religions
other races and other branches of humanity follow as well.  How did the
various religions react to each other?  Has religion died out?  The
official world seems to evade this issue (with good reason :).

philosophies - These are related to religions, but what major schools
of thought are there?  We have various philosophies on Earth, though
the differences between them and religions is sometimes tenuous.  Does
anyone have any ideas for Imperial philosophies?

This kind of information greatly fleshes out a campaign.  I have been
away from Traveller for a while and am slowly relearning the history
and Imperium and am interested in the background, primarily (I may
convert the whole thing or parts to GURPS... <duck>)

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:01:14 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: POOF!

Actually, Joe, my gaming worlds tend to be very strange places.

	I used to try and give all the NPC's distinctive names, but I gave 
that up when my players started tripping me up...'Augustus didn't say 
that! Romero did...I have it here in my notes. Nyah Nyah." Yes they did 
add the Nyah Nyah part. ;-) so for the spear carriers I started calling 
all the Red shirts (ST joke) Joe, all bartenders are named Ed , and 
security guards and annoying officious bureaucrats are named Screegle.

	So the story about the the Ancient artifact is probably being told 
to Ed in a spaceport bar, with Joe2 looking on in awe, while Screegle 
is sitting there clucking his tongue, knowing that Joe obviously was 
violating IAASHA (Imperial Ancient Artifact Safety and Health 
Administration) Directive 324.8955746 Sub 34.23 Para 476 which _clearly_ 
states:

	"No one named Joe may touch Ancient artifacts with (A) devices
resembling or constructed of small woody plant stems or branches, or (B)
other analogues therof constructed of various materials inclusive of metal,
polymer, composite materials, crystal and quasicrystal (both natural and
manufactured), or natural materials. (A) and (B) are not to be construed as
exhaustive lists of possible violating devices, and Field Agents of the
54.9967-X Grade or higher have full authority to declare other devices as
necessary for the enforcement of this directive."


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs





------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:56:49 PST
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

In mail you write:

> On 10/09/96 at 05:35 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
>>the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
>>attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.
>
> Excellent idea.  I'm not sure if it's going to work, or be easier to
> handle, but I *really* like this.
>
> We're going to end up with lower target numbers this way, an average of 2d6
> lower.  We'd need to boost the number back up, maybe by increasing the
> skill factor somehow.


Everyone was complaining that things were "*way* too easy". So how about
shifting the difficulty levels by *one* die. That'd make the end
result tasks that are one die harder than the rules, but with the
ovrwhelming attribute factor taken out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:51:19 PST
Subject: Re: More Probabilities

In mail you write:

> The character is now quite cool.  He's the ship's doctor, and he's got 
> this incurable disease that eats away his muscle tissue.  He uses a 
> specially built grav chair when he's off ship with the others.  There's a 
> special compartment built into the back of the chair, just above the 
> grav plates, where he can store equipment.  The chair has a handy 
> computer with an uplink to the ship, and there is a plug for his laser 
> pistol--so the weapon can run right off the chair's power plant.

And who is gonna expect the "wimp in the chair" to pull a laser on them
anyway? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:01:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Kenneth Lamented:
> This one-week-in-jump-no-matter-what system has never been justified like most elements 
> in Traveller other than to say, basically, "We don't understand it, but we know it 
> works.  So we use it."  That, to me, doesn't make sense.
> 
> So, Trent, what I'm looking for here is an argument for the use of the o-w-i-j-n-m-w 
> system without saying, "It is what Traveller was built on."  I'm questioning that 
> assumption.  I want someone to make me a believer by detailing what they think the 
> science is behind it. 

< Glenn puts on his hand-waving glove >

Pseudo-scientific Explaination #1:

Jumpspace dimensions, (J-1 thru 6) have a different quantum time, planck
or whatever constant than n-space, which necessitate that the ship exits
J-space in 1 week increments.
(okay, that one's a stretch, considering previous canon on misjumps
etc.)

Pseudo-scientific Explanation #2 (the better):

Jump capable ships have a Zuchai crystal grid in the hull. This grid is
powered by the jump drive until it is "hot" enough to punch a "hole"
through normal space and allow the ship to enter jump space. (Ref: the
excellent DGP product Starship Operators Manual, I'm going by memory
here, so if I've got anything wrong, bear with me.)

The zuchai crystal grid surrounding the ship requires about a week to
"cool down" in order for the ship to exit jumpspace. It is physically
impossible to speed the cooling off of the grid without risking
destroying its integrity and being lost in jumpspace. (but for the
interest of a good story, one could try! Risking a misjump of course :-)
Once the grid has "cooled", the ship exits j-space and enters n-space at
the calculated location, close to a gravity well.


What follows is my minor canon breaking (shock! horror!) extension of
this description, it might be a bad idea, but for those who like
breaking things:

Travel in jumpspace is virtually instantaneous. J-1 is a quantum
jumpspace location spanning circa 1 parsec in normal space, J-2 is one
location spanning 2 parsecs in n-space, etc. There is no known way to
predictably travel from one J-space quantum location to another except
through a misjump. (Tho' grandfather likely knows :-)

If one wished, power could be continued to be spent keeping the zuchai
crystal grid "hot". In this case, distance travelled would not be
changed, just the time spent in jumpspace extended. Useful for waiting
out suspected pirates.

The reason why it takes one week to travel through jumpspace is that it
takes that long for the grid to "cool-down" and the ship to exit
j-space. Alternate materials cool at different rates. Zuchai crystals
have been found to be the most effective at reducing jump times, but if
Zuchai isn't available, <insert fancy material here> Crystals or some
fansy-shmancy Ceramic stuff can be used, increasing travel time by X
days (X hours? X percent?) The ship would also be more prone to
misjumps, or more likely to lose grid integrity from damage in a
firefight. (more drama added here) Zuchai is simply the most efficient
material available at TL 9-16.

At TL-<insert ungodly tech level here> advanced materials and methods
have been discovered that reduce travel time by, say 20%-40%.

Comments?

- - Glenn Hoppe
<throws down his glove in challenge. Give me a better explaination!>

PS. Note to Imperium Games: You have my permission to use my
description, or a variation thereof, as long as I get my name
immortalized in small print on the credits page. :-)



------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:07:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Time Traveller

Thank you Joel! This is the best "Hard" science explanation of time
travel that I have ever read!

It's also the only one I can think of that doesn't mangle Traveller
canon. (But I guess this list isn't too concerned about that :-)

- -- Glenn


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 18:11 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510

In-Reply-To: <9610080458.AA11179@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

I've often wondered just what *we* think is impossible.  <g> I've listed
the 5 task levels and 5 skill levels below.  Let's do a little survey...

What percentage chance of success to you think each skill level should 
havefor each task level? >>

                                       Highly
            Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert
             (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)
- - -----------+-------------------------------------------
Easy       |  70      80        90      100     100
Average    |  60      70        80       90     100
Difficult  |  50      60        70       80      90
Formidable |  40      50        60       70      80
Staggering |  30      40        50       60      70
Impossible |  20      30        40       50      60

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:03:39 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 History vs. what has gone before

Allen wrote:
<< Snippage of date comparison betwixt T4 and MT >>
> I was quite surprised at the variation in some of these dates. Obviously, we
> don't know why this variation exists. Purely speculative, but here are some
> ideas why;

I think the simplest and most logical explaination is that in T4 they
just rounded most of the dates to the nearest half century or so,
assuming the actual dates are lost in the mists of time...

I can't explain why the beginning of the third Imperium etc. are
apparently out by 3 years tho'. Perhaps T4 uses CT material as a
reference? Since I'm at work I don't have older CT reference material to
see if MT is different from the earlier material. (though I suspect this
is so - MT was really buggy)

- - Glenn



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 18:11 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #510

In-Reply-To: <9610080458.AA11179@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Probabilities..Just how Impossible is Impossible?

I've often wondered just what *we* think is impossible.  <g> I've listed
the 5 task levels and 5 skill levels below.  Let's do a little survey...

What percentage chance of success to you think each skill level should 
havefor each task level? >>

                                       Highly
            Novice  Average  Skilled  Skilled  Expert
             (6)      (9)      (12)     (15)    (18)
- - -----------+-------------------------------------------
Easy       |  70      80        90      100     100
Average    |  60      70        80       90     100
Difficult  |  50      60        70       80      90
Formidable |  40      50        60       70      80
Staggering |  30      40        50       60      70
Impossible |  20      30        40       50      60

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:18:24 MET
Subject: T4 still not in Germany

Well what can i say....
I keep reading you guys complaining about not yet receiving your 
hardbound. Well just wait a little longer... it'll be there 
eventually.
Over here in Germany, we don't even have the softbound in the 
stores yet (Though i hope that will change with Essen, when 
ImpGames will be over here!!!)
Sop guys and gals, cut the complaining and hang in there. Saves 
bandwidth and nerves! 
Later,

V.A.G.                                              FNORD!

- ------ Volker A. Greimann.......Grei5001@uni-trier.de ----
- ------ I play Traveller,I Play INWO,I play Diplomacy  ---- 

- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!"

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 13:18:38 GMT
Subject: Future Religions

>Don't wait too long!  I think this would be fascinating to see.  Would a
>possible solution be to put it on a web page, where it would be accessible
>to you for tinkering but likewise available for view and comment?

Actually, I've got some stuff in the works, but with my insane 70-hour
workweek have no time to collate it into a readable format.  I will
eventually publish it on my web site.

I've noticed that some of the early Christian 'heresies' make a lot of sense
- - in sense that they are internally consistent. Add in fusions with other
religious philosophies, and you have scope for new sects that are
'Christian', but unlike the ones common today.

A friend has being doing the same with Judaism.  (Being Jewish, he has the
background for this.)  This will also appear as part of the same document.

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:36:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dating inconsistancies

Hi. Allen wrote:

>From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:34:43 -0400
>Subject: T4 History vs. what has gone before 

>I was quite surprised at the variation in some of these dates. Obviously, we
>don't know why this variation exists. Purely speculative, but here are some
>ideas why;

I'd say that IG is doing two things:

1) Rounding off some dates to the nearest 50 years

2) Making a judgement between MT's canon and CT's canon.

Here is your table with the CT dates added: ("idkoh" means
I Don't Know Off Hand.)

EVENT                   New Date        Old Date(MT)    CT
Vilani Era begins       4700 BC         4717 BC         idkoh
Vilani Era ends         2300 AD         2314 AD         2302 AD
Terran Conf. begins     2100 AD         2120 AD         2022
Terran Conf. ends       2300 AD         2314 AD         2317
Rule of Man begins      2300 AD         2314 AD         2317
Rule of Man ends        2750 AD         2742 AD         2745
Long Night begins       2750 AD         2742 AD         2745
Long Night ends         4500 AD         ?               4521
Third Imperium begins   4521 AD         4518 AD         4521
Third Imperium ends     5637 AD         5634 AD (?)     5637
Aslan Border Wars begin 3400 AD         3400 AD         idkoh
Aslan Border Wars end   4900 AD         ?               idkoh
Vargr Campagns begin    4700 AD         4728 AD         4731
Vargr Campaigns end     4900 AD         4866 AD         idkoh
Barracks Emperors begin 5100 AD         5122 AD         5125
Barracks Emperors end   5140 AD         5140 AD         5143
Rebellion begins        5637 AD         5634 AD         -
Rebellion ends          5651 AD (?)     5648 AD (?)     -
Virus Era begins        5651 AD (?)     5648 AD (?)     -
RC begins               5722 AD (?)     5719 AD (?)     -
Regency begins          5653 AD (?)     5651 AD (?)     -

dates marked with (?) are speculative. Dates marked with ? are unknown.

I don't know why MT changed the CT dates across the board. (There were a
few inconsistancies to be resolved, but the whole dating system
changed!) But there you have it.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:06:40 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long) 

Derek Stanley wrote:

> First the character generates a frame.
> Scant/Light/Regular/Heavy/Massive--  This give you an idea as to the
> general skeletal morphology of the individual and an indication of
> general bulk.  Women roll with a -3 on this giving them on average Light
> Frames.
> Then the character's Height is generated.  From the Height and Frame the
> characters' weight is interpolated from a table.  Scant and Light Frames
> have lower body weights and Heavy and Massive frame have highter body
> weights.  +-10% & +-20%
> Then the characters generate their strenght.  There strenght is related
> directly to their weight and characters who only weigh 100 lbs have
> minus's.  Oddly as a physical characteristic the charater can be
> overweight, but the strenght statistic is modified by their unmodified
> weight not their modified obese weight.

In a like vein, look at championship weightlifters. They are not schwarzeneggers, they 
are barrel chested pillars
2300 AD had something similiar for morphology, but failed to distinguish between the 
male and female difs. The question on this topic is not so much how to generate racial 
and sexual difs, but rather how to do so without seeming derogatory

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #529
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 530

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         2. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. Re: Web Mail Acronyms
         4. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         5. Re: (To Leonard Erickson) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         6. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         7. Re: My religion
         8. 'When the stars are right, Great Chthulu will awaken from his slumber...'
         9. Ship mission/design question
        10. Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)
        11. Re: Probability
        12. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        13. Re: Probability
        14. Re: More Probabilites
        15. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        16. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump (CORRECTION)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:02:54 PST
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> Star Trek, of all things, has the Warp 10 barrier.), and the
> distances that we are dealing with in the Imperium are so great, that
> I know having "faster" ships will not greatly impact on the
> communication/economic situation basic to Traveller.

But it absolutely *destroys* the *military* situation.

Consider this not uncommon scenario.

Invading fleet jumps into unimportant system to regroup & refuel before
jumping to the target system. Target system is 1 parsec away. And there
are screening forces in this system.

Under the Traveller rules, the screening forces will send a courier,
and fight until they have to retreat, with heavy ships hanging on to
delay the enemy, and then finally jumping out. Smaller ships will jump
out early, except for possible "rear guard" forces and some left behind
to act as guerillas from hidden bases.

The time between the arrival of the courier with the warning, and the
arrival of the enemy is determined *solely* by how long the screening
force can delay them.

Under your rules, the goal of the screening force is to do as much
*damage* as possible, then get the hell out of there. And the interval
between when the courier arrives and when the invaders arrive is
determined by the difference in jump drive capability between the
courier and the *slowest* ships in the invading fleet. 

So instead of *hours* of warning, you get *days* of warning. This
totally screws strategy and tactics.

Traveller is based on the idea that word of an attack can't travel
faster than the attackers. You've thrown that away. "Pearl Harbor"
attacks are a much more difficult proposition in your universe.

As for scientific basis, I'll explain why Jump takes a week, regardless
as soon as you explain why Charge and Spin come in fixed quantities,
but mass doesn't. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:02:57 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> If you want to follow a ship jumping out in one of my games you have a big
>> problem..that ship could be jumping to any system in it's range, and you
>> have no way of knowing which one.  A pursueing force has to spread out,
>> covering all possible systems...and that can quickly become a
>> *dangerous* task. <g>
>
> I'm in total agreement.  In fact, I just made a post stating this same thing.

I was referring to situations where you pretty much *know* where they
ship is going. And for freighter type ships, you *do* know. Ditto for
cases where you know there's only one system in range of the other
ship's jump drive.

>> Second, that you can make "short haul" jumps.  In my games, a ship has
>> to be over 200 stellar diameters out to jump, and it can leave jump only
>> within 2 stellar diameters.   
>
> Hey, now that is a heck of an idea.  I like that.  I really do.  It also 
> addresses the  importance of the m-drive.

Better do some figuring. Look up just what the "equilibrium temp" is at
2 stellar diameters out from various stars. You *won't* like the
answer. Also work out the escape velocity at that distance. You won't
like it either (as in, your ship doesn't have the power to get away)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:16:31 +0000
Subject: Re: Web Mail Acronyms

Mark Cook wrote:
> 
> David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> writes:
> >
> > Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> >
> > > OK, I give up.  I see this and BTW a lot, and I'm not too proud to say
> > > that I don't know the acronym.  What does BTW and IMHO stand for?
> >
> > BTW - By the way,
> > IMHO - In my humble opinion
> > IMNHO, IMNSHO - In my not (so) humble opinion
> > IIRC - If I recall correctly,
> > LOL - Lots (loads) of laughs (I think)
> 
> Actually, that one means "Laughing Out Loud."
> 
> > ROFLMAO - Rolling on the floor, laughing my a.. off
> 
> Others are:
> 
> AFAIK - As Far As I Know.
> FYI   - For Your Information.
> FNG   - F*cking New Guy/Gal.
> FWIW  - For What It's Worth.
> OTOH  - On The Other Hand.
> TIA   - Thanks In Advance.
> TTFN  - Ta Ta For Now.
> WRT   - With Regard To.
> YMMV  - Your Mileage May Vary.
> 
>         - Mark C.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
>  2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    "Some people let their conscience be their guides.  I make mine
>     my accomplice." - Mike Newsome <root@miken.shands.ufl.edu>

ACRONYM--Already Commented Remark-Or not your making

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:19:10 PST
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> Traveller goes into great detail about how other items work--and they
> usually make sense.  This is not so with jump space.  They just ask
> you to believe.

I bought a fair amount of Megatraveller stuff, but no TNE. And I didn't
buy the Starship Operator's manual. 

*None* of the stuff I have "explains" things. And the explanations I
hear quoted (all from that one book) for things like thruster plates
are pure nonsense.

I'm sorry, but *none* of the "explanations" make sense. Not even the
one for meson guns. If they make sense to you, that's merely because
you don't know enough about phsyics.

> Yes, jump space is divided into levels--I'll buy that.  But, why does
> each level require a week?  Why not variable times.  Why not longer
> times?  Why any time at all?

Because that's the way the designers intended the game to work! All
other "explanations" are just BSing.

But given that you accept "levels", consider that just maybe there
*are* other levels. And they take a lot longer. The ones that get used
are the "best" that are practical to use.

> The operation of jump drive is quite complex, and varying theories
> exist as to why it works.  Even the greatest scientists of the
> Imperium admit they do not fully understand the principles behind the
> workings of jump drive.  The following description, based in large
> part on the works of the Jump-space Institute at Deneb, is greatly
> simplified.

> [See.  They don't really know how it works.

You are confusing *how* with *why*. "How" it works is that you build a
piece of equipment that meets certain criteria, feed it the right
amount of power under the right conditions, and you "enter jumpspace"
and emerge a week later at some distance from where you started.

*Why* is not really a scientific question. *Why* do relativistic
effects occur? Nobobody knows. But we have come up with equations that
*describe* the effects, and letr us make predictions about what they'll
be in cases we haven't tried yet.

> And below, they give no reason as to why it takes a week to travel
> the jump space levels.  It just is...  You must BELIEVE....]

And nobody knows *why* the speed of light has the value it does. It
just is. Belief has nothing to do with it. It's an observable fact.

Perhaps you are unaware of how many things get discovered and used even
though no-one has any idea as to how they work. Electrical
transformers, batteries, crystal detectors, many chemical processes are
all things that were in *commercial* use long before any real
explanation of them was available. Heck, we've been using catalysts for
centuries and we still aren't sure *how* they do what they do.

You are holding Traveller to a higher standard than the real world,
friend.

> In understanding jump drive, one must first understand jumpspace.
> Following the Big Bang (some 15 billion years ago) a multitude of
> dimensions existed--far more that the four which we normally
> perceive.

> [I'd buy this.  Makes sense]

> Within seconds, however, most of these dimensions collapsed into
> nothingness and were lost.  From that point on, we have the familiar
> three dimensions of space and the one of time.

Besides the fact that "dimension" has a meaning rather different than
most people realize, there are problems with the above. Dimensions
*can't* vanish. If they exist, they will continue to exist.

Consider the classic example of a "two dimensional" universe. The third
dimension still exists, even if the universe doesn't extend in that
"direction". 

The current theories allow for dimensions that are very, very small (ie
the maximum "distance" you can travel in them before returning to your
starting point. This is likely what the authors were thinking about.

> However, the era of modern physics dawned with the realization that
> more dimensions than the four we know survived the Big Bang.  Modern
> cosmology places the number of existing dimensions at no fewer than
> 62.

Current theories require between 11 and 26 dimensions to make the
universe "work". 

> The vast majority of these alternate dimensions do not affect our
> everday life in anyway.  Beyond the first four dimensions, many of
> the others are in force only at the subatomic level, while the
> remaining three dozen are accessible only via jump drive.

Sorry, but the "subatomic level" *does* affect "everyday life". And
often quite profoundly. For example, *all* chemical reactions are a
result of effects involving quantum exchanges between atomic nuclei as
masked by the surrounding electrons.

> The various jumpspace dimensions are described by modern physicistis
> as levels. Each jumpspace level has its own character, defined by the
> physical laws which operate there: these laws are known as the
> level's weave.  A level's weave ranges from very loose (easily
> entered) to very tight (difficult to enter).

> [They go on to say that each level corresponds to the 6 jump levels
> attainable by j-drives.  The only mention of time in jump space is
> the next line below.]

> Since jump drive is able to cover such distances in only seven days, 
> jumpspace makes interstellar travel practical.

> [Why?  Why?  Why?  Why?  Why?  Why do they not tell us why jump space
> requires about a week--no matter the level?  They go into such detail
> to explain how the rest of jump space works--why is time just a given?]

They are *describing* how it works. And the time is not a "given",
anymore than the speed of light is. Instead, it is an observed
constant. Science is *full* of these. There's no reason "why" they have
these values, just the observed *fact* that they do.

The closest to a "why" science has for some of these is expressed in
the Anthropic principle. This merely notes that when you work out the
way the universe would act if these constants had different values, it
turns out that we wouldn't be here to observe them. It takes
*incredibly* small changes in some pretty obscure constants to result
in things like a universe were stars can't form, or where they don't
last long enough for life to evolve.

> I submit to you again.  My idea of "faster" jump drives does not
> change any of the science behind the jump drive,

Since there *isn't* any science you are correct. But if you include the
"science" from things like you quoted, then you *have* changed it,
since the quotes say it takes a week, and you don't. (ie, you've
changed the "observed effects")

> the theory (except duration) behind jump space,

Going by what you quoted, they are repeatedly telling you that there
*aren't* any theories, just observations!

> or the economic/communication situation established in Traveller.

It *does* change communications. It makes it possible to warn System A
of a fleet leaving System B, as long as the courier has a better jump
drive than the *worst* ship in the fleet. That's pretty much a given. 

And in Year 0, that's a *huge* advantage. Consider that much of a fleet
would be jump 1. But that a courier could be Jump 2 or even jump 3.
That gives from 3.5 to 4.7 *days* of warning. 

So you've just made surprise attacks by major forces impossible. You've
also made it impossible to *force* a fleet to fight you. If they have
scouts with J3 in the surrounding hexes, they have *days* to jump out
before you get there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:12:37 -0400
Subject: Re: (To Leonard Erickson) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Kenneth wrote

"Again, Leonard, you are not thinking this through.  Let's go ahead and say
that someone with a better j-drive than yours watched you jump out, pulled
a rabbit out of his butt, and guessed which system you jumped to.  This
does not mean that both ships came out in the same part of the system.  It
takes days to travel across most systems, and there is some guess work on
the part of the chasing ship as to where the target ship will arrive.  Will
it be the main world, the gas giant, or right outside the asteroid belt? 
So the chasing ship gets there first.  This does not mean, by any stretch,
that the chasing ship automatically catches the target ship."

Kenneth, Well isn't it convenient that this is exactly what you have done
to your players on "many a fun session".

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)


------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:11:32 +0000
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

Marc Miller writes:

> 1. Personalities
> c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu Labs)
> d. Frank Repzinski XVII

1.
c. Did he actually discover it, or take credit for it (a la Roman emperors and relatives 
taking credit for the work of several legions or Thomas A. Edison)
d. Who?

------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:12:28 +0000
Subject: Re: My religion

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> Well, I myself am a Frisbeterian. I beleive that when you die, your soul
> goes up on the roof and you can't get it down!

I am an Dyslexic Agnostic, I doubt there is a Dog

------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:22:03 -0700
Subject: 'When the stars are right, Great Chthulu will awaken from his slumber...'

Was RE: Those damnable unexplored Core worlds

>Andy Lilly
>Subject: 	Those damnable unexplored Core worlds
>
>(1) Re wrong world positions, etc. Could anyone with a space science
>background tell me if the relative motions of star systems cause the
>positions to "appear" to change on the map due to it being only a 2D
>representation, and effectively being a map of jump space rather than real
>space?

I'd say that relative motion is definitely a factor, if a small one.
What do our star-maps not show?  Other star systems that have no planets
or just a couple of barren rocks in far orbits.  In the writing project
I belong too we have a name for these:  Null Points.  There's no point
(pardon the pun) to use these in everyday astronavigation--as there is
no possibility of trade (code Ba) or frontier refueling (no GG, planets
with water or belts).  The main effect that these stars would have is to
alter the 'Gravimetric Landscape'

<psuedoscience handwave mode ON>

We all know the main limitation with Jump Drive is that you can't
reliably use it while in close proximity to a gravity well.  Gravity
(the warping of our 4-dimensional space-time fabric) obviously has a
major impact on entry and navigation across J-Space.

The convenient measurement of how far a Jump Drive can get you is the
Parsec.  I submit that this is only an approximation or even just a
generalization of the difficulty of the jump.  In this scheme, the
Parsec takes on the same meaning as the Displacement Ton. 

A world that is 1 hex ('one parsec') away from another could mean that
it has a mean distance of approximately 3.6 light years, (+/- 50%) or
that because of the relative 'clear route' (i.e. no other
starsystems/null points effecting the J-Space flight path).

However a world that is 6 hexes ('6 parsecs') away from another might
only be a few lightyears away, but because of a 'cluttered' route (lots
of null points making that initial run into J-Space very tough, or
having to use J-6 space (as per the Starship Ops Guide) to 'leap' over
the clutter.

>(2) Why aren't the Core Worlds explored? Unlikely that they're not explored
>- the data just isn't available to your average person. If the Syleans had a
>strong feeling that to build their power, etc. they needed to keep
>genetically clean, they might well have avoided a lot of contact with the
>surrounding worlds, preferring to keep to their developed core and not
>'taint' their populace (either genetically, or through the influx of foreign
>religions, ideas, etc.). After 650 years (or whatever), Cleon either thinks
>that his people should have freedom from these restraints, or that the
>profits out there are just too good to waste, or that his people are now
>sufficiently proud and dedicated to the Sylean homeworlds that it is safe to
>expose the general populace to external influences.
>
>Anyone care to comment?

At this time the Imperium has just rediscovered Jump-3 drive technology,
and Jump-2 is 'bleeding edge tech' for the rest of the TL-11 universe
(probably reserved for military ships).  Your average trader is going to
have a Jump-1 drive--it makes getting to those 'unnamed' worlds very
hard.  It's been mentioned before that this is the 'Official' map.  This
is what the Imperium has released for it's general navigation charts.
The worlds not listed might be Red Zones (that's if we had a TAS to call
it that in year 0) for various reasons.

Hell, there's unknown!!  Get your characters to find a J-2 (or J-3)
capable ship and explore them!  I applaud IG for letting me make my T4
universe exactly the way I want it!

Jeffrey

>
>Andy Lilly :-)
>Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)
>
>P.S. I'm trying to contact the following people (your old e-mail addresses
>seem to be invalid):
>Sean Harradine
>Ralph Ferneyhough
>Mike Lowery
>Matt Johnston
>Markus Sova
>Sami Ovaskainen
>Logan Alisdair
>Bob Coffey
>Paul James
>PLEASE CONTACT ME!
>
>

------------------------------

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:26:51 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Ship mission/design question

	In preparing a longish T4 Milieu 0 world/adventure supplement, I 
came up with a mission problem designing one of the ships.

	How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
low passage) one way, and bulk materials back? (It's an end of the line type
world, so you cant just go on with each type of ship to a further
destination)

	I thought about using modularized containers, but that means you're 
deadheading one or the other type of container each trip. As I 
understand it, low berths take up a fair amount of room, and so can't 
just be 'folded up' and out of the way when the bulk stuff is loaded.

	If no one comes up with a good answer, I'll just make the ship half 
low berths and half bulk container, and assume the economics work out 
somehow ;) (NOT that I want to get dragged into an 'economics of starships' 
rockthrowing contest again)

	Ideas? 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:52:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> languages - I assume that many Earth languages were spread throughout
> the Imperium, but what other languages are there?  I assume that the
> other branches of humanity also have multiple languages.  What's the
> Imperium standard?  Is there one?  What are the languages of the
> Zhodani, etc..?  There are word generation charats in the various old
> CT race books, but not one for the Vilani.

There is one in the MT refs companion (yeah, it is MT but it is just so damn useful, get it 
if ya can)

> religions - Someone else mentioned that they wanted to do a future
> history of Earth's major religions.  I'd be interested in what religions
> other races and other branches of humanity follow as well.  How did the
> various religions react to each other?  Has religion died out?  The
> official world seems to evade this issue (with good reason :).

Here is one vote for, to quote Billy Idol, No Religion At All

> philosophies - These are related to religions, but what major schools
> of thought are there?  We have various philosophies on Earth, though
> the differences between them and religions is sometimes tenuous.  Does
> anyone have any ideas for Imperial philosophies?

I am kinda curious, does anyone think Marxism will survive, other than at IG (there 
basic philosophy of everything being driven by economics is pure marxism)

> This kind of information greatly fleshes out a campaign.  I have been
> away from Traveller for a while and am slowly relearning the history
> and Imperium and am interested in the background, primarily (I may
> convert the whole thing or parts to GURPS... <duck>)

Don't make the same mistake I did, when it comes to GURPS, just say NO!

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:34:32 PST
Subject: Re: Probability

In mail you write:

>>So, here are my proposals.
>>
>>1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
>>the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
>>attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.
>
> This is an interesting idea.  So let me try an example to see if I follow
> your meaning...
>
> Nakita (hee hee) has a skill level of 2 in Biology and a 9 for EDU.  Her 'to
> hit' number would then be 9+2+2??? or would it just be 2+2? or what?  I
> think I'm confused. :)

Skill + (attrib-7)

2+ (9-7)= 4

>>2. The bonus is limited to the skill level (or to 1 if the skill is
>>level 0). I supposed penalties can be limited likewise. 
>
> Now this I do understand.  In the example above, if Nakita (hee hee) had a
> skill level of 1, the bonus would only be limited to 1 not 2 which is the
> difference, right?

Right.

And if she had the skill at "level 0" then she'd still have a 1 bonus,
for a total of 1. Not good, but better than the guy with *no* Edu
bonus, or no skill at all.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:10:47 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

>> Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
>> parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
>> *seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
>> diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.
>
>         Thats why we extended the save jump point to size^2*10 light
>         seconds, and the dangerous to (size-1)^2*10 light seconds.

Great. The Sun is size 432. That means you have to get out to 520 light
*hours* to make a safe jump. Or only 517 light hours to make a
"dangerous" one.

Want to try that one again?


>> My tracking station with it's huge antenna spots you, beams a message
>> to a waiting task force and next thing you know, you are surrounded by
>> ships. Worse, if they can do multiple jumps, they can jump in, acquire
>> you as a target, fire, and jump out before your return fire gets there.
>
>         Ok my system would change defence, e.g. 6 ships waiting 1 au
>         around an large gas giant, could jump to an incoming ship (which
>         needs about 40 hours to orbit) in some seconds, but as any jumps
>         must face directly towards a mass, it will hit the same orbit
>         of 1440 light seconds and will be perhaps 720 light seconds away.

Ships *are* masses. So jumping towards one is perfectly acceptable.

ps. Someone else was talking about having to be 200 stellar diameters
out to jump, and arriving 2 stellar diameters out. For the sun that
means you have to be 1.856 AU out, and you arrive .01856 AU out. That's
one *hell* of a sunburn, folks! (4 *megawatts* per square meter of hull!)
There's also the not so trivial matter of the sun exerting 1.75 g on
your ship at that distance. What? You only have a 1 g drive. Too bad...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:05:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Probability

Joe Walsh wrote:
> Well, since you're project leader, you might want to submit the final
> result of this Task system debate to IG . . . :)

Well, err, I thought that you were our main link to IG because of your editing project, 
but, hey, I have no problem at all with that.  In fact, I think it is a beautiful idea 
to have a fix created by all of us here on TML printed into cannon.  

Heck, I might even have to stop attacking cannon after we do that.

(thinks a moment, then shakes head)

Naa.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:07:59 -0700
Subject: Re: More Probabilites

Liam McCauley wrote:
> Personally, I think we should abandon the task system completely and
> convert to White Wolf's WOD system.

Hey, who let this guy on TML?  (Psst, Joe.  You get the tar--I'll get the feathers.)

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:11:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > Well EXCUUUUSE ME! <G>
> >
> > "Get the kerosene!  I'll get the wood!  We'll teach this heritic." <wink>
> >
> 
> No need to get the wood.....you can just use all that invalidated DGP
> material . . . ;)

HEY!  I'd put DGP's stuff up against ANY of the GDW stuff any day of the week.  GDW 
invented the wheel--DGP made it roll.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:16:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump (CORRECTION)

Paul Walker wrote:
> Uh, Yeah, I like your stop watch idea better too, but it was me, Paul, not
> Trent. :)  Just don't want Trent to get labeled as a canon basher without
> just cause. :)  BTW, your stop watch idea would help explain why ships
> arrive at different locations in the system as well.

Uh, sorry, Trent, I mean, Paul.  Or was it Bob?  Jack?  Peter?  Oh, whatever your name 
is, you know who you are.

Signed,

Jim, uh, I mean,
Frank, no, that's not it,
Kent, yeah, that's it, Kent.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #530
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 531

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Time Traveller 
         2. RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump 
         3. Re: Probability
         4. Re: Transplanted Hominids
         5. Re: Time Traveller
         6. Re: (To Leonard Erickson) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         7. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         8. Armand for Divine Inheritor of the Earth
         9. Re:  Milieu O
        10. New Career: (not very serious)
        11. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
        12. Spires Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:34:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Time Traveller 

I took the liberty of forwarding our discussion to my fellow gamers
in the time-travel game.  One of them writes back:

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you should give him my quantum-mechanical statement of the law of
timelock:

	An event, having been observed, cannot be un-observed.

A restatement in Plain English is:

	You can't change your own past.

That's it. It's simple, and profound in ways like the laws of
thermodynamics.  Sorry, you can't make a perpetual motion device. Sorry,
you can't change the past.

I understand his fear of mystical forces. Timelock isn't that much more
mystical than gravity or gyroscopic effects (Why *do* things fall, and why
*don't* gyroscopes or bicycles or whatever fall?). One of the arguments
against the model of the world that says that the Earth is spinning is the
very sensible observation that we can't *feel* the Earth spinning at 1000
MPH, and we oughta be able to if it were. This isn't stupid, it's
insightful. Today we believe differently, and have (what we think) are very
good reasons for believing differently.

Personally, I think that once you wrap your mind around it, timelock is
uncanny but a better explanation than multiple-worlds, just as our model of
cosmology is uncanny, but a better explanation than having to have those
crystal spheres.

I do like the "wave theory" (it's also a modification-theory) of time
travel he's proposed. I just like our "particle theory" better, because it
lets spacetime be spacetime -- a single substance. You can move in space,
you can move in time (and actually have to move in both). We intuitively
know the dangers that solid objects pose to moving in space. Timelock
effects are really no more than the solid objects of timetravel. These
temporal objects are nothing more than state vectors that are decided. Bump
into them hard, and you'll hurt yourself. Bump into them softly (we bump
into air softly all the time), and they'll accomodate you.

Sigh, having written this, Earl, feel free to just forward it to him.

	Jon
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Earl Wajenberg



------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:34:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11: 01:17 PDT
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:34:35 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Pseudo-scientific Explaination #1:
: 
: Jumpspace dimensions, (J-1 thru 6) have a different quantum time, planck
: or whatever constant than n-space, which necessitate that the ship exits
: J-space in 1 week increments.
: (okay, that one's a stretch, considering previous canon on misjumps
: etc.)

This is the most plausible if you look at what's been printed for
Traveller over the ages.  Basically, we know that Jump Space isn't one
dimension, but many.  We also know that it takes a more or less constant
amount of time to traverse these dimensions.  The only difference
between dimensions is the amount of energy needed to enter them.  If we
go with CT/MT, once in we sit back and relax because all of our jump
fuel was used to energize the jump into j-space.  If we go with TNE,
then the fuel is used throughout the jump to regulate the j-drive and
keep it from blowing up.

Now misjumps could be the result of incorrect energizing of the jump
field grid/drive/bubble/potential (your choice).  That tends to mess
things all kinds of up.  Depending on the type of misjump, you might be
entering a different jump dimension, or you may be travelling between
dimensions (hence to reason for the time incongruity).

: Pseudo-scientific Explanation #2 (the better):
: 
: Jump capable ships have a Zuchai crystal grid in the hull. This grid is

Actually, it's the lanthanum grid.  The zuchai crystals are the power
storage capicators in the jump drive.  Your explanation is nice, but the
jump grid is never mentioned as getting hot.  It's just the sequencing
of energy to punch a ship through n-space into j-space in a particular
way.  Also, one could argue that the heat idea is negated by the tales
of people being on the hull of the ship (just under the jump bubble).

My take is more for #1 because it seems to stick more with what's been
written about Traveller from the MM's j-space article back in JTAS 24 to
SOM to TNE.

To be honest, I would probably say that jump should be a combination of
grid and fuel for coolant.  I like the idea that the hull is doing the
energizing and entering of j-space, but I am also enamored with the idea
that the j-drive and engineer actually have something to do once in
jump.

: PS. Note to Imperium Games: You have my permission to use my
: description, or a variation thereof, as long as I get my name
: immortalized in small print on the credits page. :-)

Ditto for me.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:53:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Probability

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Well, err, I thought that you were our main link to IG because of your editing project, 

Oh, I see your line of reasoning.  "Joe was gullible enough to spend all 
his free time for two weeks editing T4 for FREE, so he's almost certainly 
gullible enough to do this."  <grin>


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:53:30 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Transplanted Hominids

 
> Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk> said:
> >Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
> >allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
> >source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
> >eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love the idea
>>of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more scientifically thought out.

Actually, this would be more like _Homo_erectus_.  Besdies, habilis
is somewhat dubious as a species as I understand it.  300,000 years
is also kinda close to neandertal (_H.sapiens.neandethalensis_) and
archaic _Homo_sapiens_ (what's a 100,000 years or so in the scheme
of things :-)

It might be neat to have a more detailled explanation of how the
various humans in traveller relate to one another.

Neandertal isn't very different from us now---and not very different
than what you'd expect from humans on a high gravity world (more
robust).  It would be cool to come up with some reasonable
differences.  Starting at a point near archaic sapiens, or late
erectus, what would we get on the different transplanted worlds?

The "desired" (by grandfather) characteristics would be:  improved
bipedalism, intelligence.  Hmm, what else.  Completing the bipedal
transition (hell, we haven't finished that yet :-) would make
erectus more like us.  Same with brain capacity.  It might be neat
to point out the facial differences of the different races of man in
traveller.  As well as differences due to home world conditions
(especially on the transplants who had these new forces acting on
them).

Hmmm, interesting.

- -Merrick
> Unless Grandfather et al genetically engineered all of the groups to follow a 
> general predetermined evolutionary path.  Since the Ancients could not predict 
> or compensate for the natural forces of evolution, the races still show 
> surprising differences, but overall are more similar than different.
> 
> Or at least that's my guess
> 
> Steve Charlton
> 


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:26:42 PST
Subject: Re: Time Traveller

In mail you write:

> From a much earlier posting: 
>
>>From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
>>Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 13:51:00 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Time travel 
>>
>>Actually, you can preserve causality -- or at least consistency -- 
>>and still have time-travel in your game.  (I have some experience in 
>>the matter, since our group has been playing a time-travel-based 
>>RPG for over five years.)
>>
>>To keep consistency, you must rule out paradox -- changing the past 
>>from what you have already experienced it to be.  The way we do that 
>>is by "timelock."  Timelock is an alteration of probability that 
>>affects time travellers.  For instance, suppose you have a dreadful 
>>thing happen, then travel back a week.  An obvious thing to try is 
>>to warn your past self.  But, if you try to visit your earlier self, 
>>you can't catch a cab, or you are held up in traffic, or you are in 
>>a traffic accident.  If you try to call yourself, the line is busy, or 
>>your get a wrong number, or something of the sort.
>>
>>Timelock means luck acts to prevent time travellers from creating 
>>inconsistencies.  Generally speaking, the more bull-headed one is 
>>about trying to change the past, the worse you can hurt yourself with 
>>timelock.  It hurts more to try walking through a wall at 100 mph than
>>at 1 mph.
>
> The implication that an omnipotent force protects casuality rankles my hard
> science fiction neck hairs.

Better read the papers physics types are writing. Because that's
*exactly* what they suggest. If time travel is possible, it
*immediately* restricts available actions in certain circumstances,
because otherwise, it'd be possible to create various nasty problems.
The odd thing is that they didn't have to add any rules to do this. The
*existing* rules for particle interactions do it on their own.

The trick is that your "path" to the past has to not only let your
"wave function" get at wave functions in the past, but it has to let
their wave functions get at the future. 

For example, certain types of wormholes that *could* allow time travel
turn out to be ruled out because as soon as you get them configured
right, the particle pairs that make up the "vacuum energy" will create
a feedback loop thru the wormhole, which increases until it colapses.


> Experiment Two:  Travel five years to past to meet himself.  He definitely
> does not recall ever seeing someone barge into his class claiming to be from
> another time so he is curious to see if his ideas on what will happen are
> correct.
>
> Implementation:  Some thirty minutes from when he first travelled five years
> back, he set out to travel back again to that same exact date he had gone to
> before, 08:00:00 AM 15 January 5485AD.  
>
> Effect:  He travels back to the past to that exact time, his time machine
> calculating to the exact femto second how far across the expanding waves it
> needs to go to arrive the same point in time as before.  Even though he
> travelled to the same femtosecond he had gone to before the wave is a
> different, new one.  
>
> As he expected, he sees himself, but he knows it is a self from an earlier
> wave that had just gotten to this point in time of trying experiment one.
> He waits until his other self leaves and then walks into the class room and
> shocks the teachers, students, and his younger self completely.  He
> introduces himself and explains how he got there, and then leaves.  He was
> there fifteen minutes and arrives at wave Origin having been gone fifteen
> minutes.  He realizes that the change he wrought on that wave will only
> affect that wave.   Since that wave will _never_ catch up to his Origin
> wave, it doesn't affect him in a paradoxical matter.

You are describing "serial universes", and as such, it's not time
travel *at all*. The big catch is that there's no requirement for them
to be identical. 

And since they *are* different universe, it really doesn't matter much
what you can or can't do.

Now consider the "fun" with *real* time travel.

You get visited by some guy who looks a lot like you but is babbling
about being from the future. He fails to convince you and you throw him
out. He gets struck by a car and killed as he's leaving.

The autopsy gets the authorities *very* interested. He's got your
fingerprints, DNA, etc. They start a crash program.

Some years later they get a working unit, and after some careful tests
*sending probes and people back to places where they won't be noticed,
they tell you that you are going to be sent back. 

You, of course, want no part of this, as you rem,ember what happened to
the future you. But all your efforts *will* be in vain. Because the
wave function only has one possible outcome. You go back, and die. All
other "possibilities" have a probability of *zero*, while anything that
gets you into the machine has a high probability. 

It's sort of like the Bell inequality experiments. While a naive
research would say that the chances of measuring the test value are
50-50, in actuality, they are 100-0. If you test for A and the other
particle (far removed) is tested for B, you get *the* answer. If you
test for A, you don't get a result. 

The events are linked *instanteously*. You can't fool mother nature.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:39:55 PST
Subject: Re: (To Leonard Erickson) Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

>> Worse, the problem you haven't considered. If a J5 ship can jump 1
>> parsec in 1/5th of a week (33.6 hours), it can jump one AU in .58
>> *seconds*. Why bother with manuever drives except to/from the 100
>> diameter limit. And space battles become a joke.
>
> I can't agree, here, either, Leonard.  It still takes the same amount
> of fuel to charge the zuchai crystals and the jump grid (to rip the
> hole in normal space through to jump space)--no matter how long a
> jump you plan to do.  Fuel consumption becomes an issue.  Those tanks
> can only hold so much.  If you micro-jump and plan to jump outsystem
> as well, you'd better have a place to fill up first.
>
> This is one reason for manuever drives.  The other is that
> micro-jumps are tricky business.  There is too much room for error
> and too much of a chance that you will over shoot your target point.

Only trouble is, we have already established that microjumps *are*
used. That was discussed extensively during the summer, when we were
trying to work out the parameters for "safe" manuever drives.

>> My tracking station with it's huge antenna spots you, beams a message
>> to a waiting task force and next thing you know, you are surrounded by
>> ships. Worse, if they can do multiple jumps, they can jump in, acquire
>> you as a target, fire, and jump out before your return fire gets there.
>
> Again, Leonard, you are not thinking this through.  Let's go ahead
> and say that someone with a better j-drive than yours watched you
> jump out, pulled a rabbit out of his butt, and guessed which system
> you jumped to.

This is not a *chase* scenario. This is system defense dispatching an
interceptor squadron after a bogey that has jumped insystem, using the
"micro" jumps we disagree about.

Also, at least in year zero, guessing the destination system is rather
easy. For a J-1 ship there are only 6 possibilities, and most of those
are empty hexes. Also, for piracy, you likely *know* which hex is being
jumped to from the same source that told you the ship was carrying
valuable cargo!

> It takes days to travel across most systems, and there is some guess
> work on the part of the chasing ship as to where the target ship will
> arrive.  Will it be the main world, the gas giant, or right outside
> the asteroid belt?  So the chasing ship gets there first.  This does
> not mean, by any stretch, that the chasing ship automatically catches
> the target ship.

The "chasing" ship *has* days!

Jump 1 Chased
	Chaser
Jump	J2	J3	J4	J5	J6
- ----	-----	-----	-----	-----	-----
1	3.5d	4.67d	5.25d	5.6d	5.83d


Jump 2 Chased
	Chaser
Jump	J3	J4	J5	J6
- ----	-----	-----	-----	-----
1	1.16d	1.75d	2.1d	2.33d
2	2.33d	3.5d	4.2d	4.67d


Jump 3 Chased
	Chaser
Jump	J4	J5	J6
- ----	-----	-----	-----
1	14h	22.4h	1.16d
2	1.16d	1.87d	2.33d
3	1.75d	2.8d	3.5d

Jump 4 Chased
	Chaser
Jump	J5	J6
- ----	-----	-----
1	8.4h	14h
2	16.8h	1.16d
3	1.05d	1.75d
4	1.4d	2.33d

Jump 5 Chased
	Chaser
Jump	J6
- ----	-----
1	5.6h
2	11.2h
3	16.8h
4	22.4h
5	1.16d

And if he has buddies in the destination system, he jumps in, beams
them the sensor data on the other ship's jump, and they can run it
through a big computer on the ground and be hanging around the most
likely spots at the most likely times.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:00:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> Pseudo-scientific Explanation #2 (the better):
> 
> Jump capable ships have a Zuchai crystal grid in the hull. This grid is
> powered by the jump drive until it is "hot" enough to punch a "hole"
> through normal space and allow the ship to enter jump space. (Ref: the
> excellent DGP product Starship Operators Manual, I'm going by memory
> here, so if I've got anything wrong, bear with me.)
> 
> The zuchai crystal grid surrounding the ship requires about a week to
> "cool down" in order for the ship to exit jumpspace. It is physically
> impossible to speed the cooling off of the grid without risking
> destroying its integrity and being lost in jumpspace. (but for the
> interest of a good story, one could try! Risking a misjump of course :-)
> Once the grid has "cooled", the ship exits j-space and enters n-space at
> the calculated location, close to a gravity well.

Hey, it doesn't say that in the Starship Op Manual, but, I must say, this is the first 
time the one-week-in-jump-space system has made ANY sense.  I like that idea.  Good job! 
 But, have I been totally convinced?  In a word, No.

> Travel in jumpspace is virtually instantaneous. J-1 is a quantum
> jumpspace location spanning circa 1 parsec in normal space, J-2 is one
> location spanning 2 parsecs in n-space, etc. There is no known way to
> predictably travel from one J-space quantum location to another except
> through a misjump. (Tho' grandfather likely knows :-)

And so does Kenneth.  Me and old grandfather, we're like this (holds crossed fingers 
up.)

> If one wished, power could be continued to be spent keeping the zuchai
> crystal grid "hot". In this case, distance travelled would not be
> changed, just the time spent in jumpspace extended. Useful for waiting
> out suspected pirates.

I've got to hand it to you.  This is another really great idea.  (he thinks) Yeah, I 
might use this in my campaign.

> The reason why it takes one week to travel through jumpspace is that it
> takes that long for the grid to "cool-down" and the ship to exit
> j-space. Alternate materials cool at different rates. Zuchai crystals
> have been found to be the most effective at reducing jump times, but if
> Zuchai isn't available, <insert fancy material here> Crystals or some
> fansy-shmancy Ceramic stuff can be used, increasing travel time by X
> days (X hours? X percent?) The ship would also be more prone to
> misjumps, or more likely to lose grid integrity from damage in a
> firefight. (more drama added here) Zuchai is simply the most efficient
> material available at TL 9-16.

Do you know what I just love about your idea?  It really makes sense, and it answers 
something about my system.  I was waiting for somebody to say, "OK Mr. Hot Shot.  We 
can't explain why cannon states that ships must be in jumpspace no-matter-what, but why 
don't you tell us why you think the ships should be in there for shorter periods."  And, 
for that, I had no answer other than to say, "It makes better sense to me."

Ya know, Glenn.  We may have just seen the end of this thread.  I am completely happy 
now.  In the cannon universe, the materials (or the technology is not there) are just 
not available to cool the jump grid in less than one week.  The cooling system is 
working overtime to do the job in one week as it is.  In my version of the universe, 
we've just made some sort of minor advancement in the area of cooling technology.  Both 
systems can logically exist in the same universe!  (This would be great in a future IG 
supplement showing expanding technology in one of the milieus)

Damn, Glenn.  This idea is just brilliant.  Kudos to you!  The more I think about it, 
the more I lose my problem with cannon.  I always like to stay with cannon unless I have 
a big problem, and you have just solved my big problem.

This is what I love about this mail list.  You through an idea out there.  It gets 
tossed around a bit.  And, sometimes, you walk away with a better idea than you had 
going in.  This was exactly what I was looking for, and, I must say, your post is the 
best one I have ever read.  

Now, let's see if we can come up with as good of an idea to fix the task system.

> - Glenn Hoppe
> <throws down his glove in challenge. Give me a better explaination!>

<Kenneth picks up the glove>  "Hey, mister.  You dropped something!"

Kenneth.

PS  Walk with pride, laddie.  You may have just converted a devout non-believer.

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:07:04 -0400
Subject: Armand for Divine Inheritor of the Earth

Armand Suarez writes:

>You missed my point, Harold.  I didn't say that I have conclusive 
>proof that God doesn't exist, I said there is no conclusive proof 
>that God does.  

   Which is what I *said*, but that doesn't prove, as you seem to think, that
there is no God.  Saying 'A' (any given statement of supposed truth) but not
offering definative proof of 'A' does not logically mean 'Not A', no matter
what 'A'  happens to be.

>I also said that not being able to disprove something does not make 
>it a fact. If I say that I believe that I am directly descended from the 
>Pharaohs (or whatever) and thus the Divine Inheritor of the Earth (stop 
>laughing!), according to your logic, my claim would be acceptable 
>because there is no conclusive proof against it!  

   There is what is true (reality), then there is what is *perceived* to be
true.  You may perceive yourself to be Pharaoh, but our society (assuming
that you can't come up with any evidence to prove your claim) would probably
hold a different opinion.  Whether or not your statement is *correct* is an
entirely seperate issue.

>Only conclusive proof can make a fact.  Therefore, the existence of 
>God is not a fact because there is no conclusive proof supporting the claim.

   Lack of proof for any given statement 'A' doesn't prove 'Not A'.  I can
make the statement, "you are wearing boxer shorts", and if you are unwilling
to provide proof one way or the other, that doesn't mean you couldn't
possibly be wearing them.

>  Lack of conclusive proof is OK for opinions though, so you can be 
>of the *opinion* that God exists.  (Claiming opinion to be fact based 
>on lack of disproof is what I'm really opposed to.) 

   Since we cannot know the trueness or the falseness of the statement "there
is a Supreme Being", then your assertion that there is no God is equally as
valid as John Paul II's belief (presumably) that there is.

   My other *point* was that whether or not you believe there is a God, your
decision ultimately has to be based on something other than cold, calculated
logic.  That is where faith comes in--faith that there is a God, faith that
there is not a God.

> Hey, I'm compromising!  

   If you mean you are more comfortable using the word "opinion" rather than
"faith", and then want to think of that as a compromise, then please do so.

>Let's be nice!

   Better idea.  We are solving even less here than the people who were
arguing over relativistic rocks, and at least that was more or less on topic.

>Anybody want to join the Howard Hale Fan Club? ; )

   Not funny.

>PS Let's let this thread die, OK?

   Fine with me.

- --Harold

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:06:29 -0700
Subject: Re:  Milieu O

Here's a question for Far Future/IG:

We've got a thread going here on the list in which it has been discovered that the dates 
in T4 do not jive with the dates published in the MT Imp Ency and the MT Ref Man.

The question is, why are these dates off--many by only 3 years?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:26:56 +0000
Subject: New Career: (not very serious)

Career: Intinerant

Routine Tasks:
Begging, sleeping in the streets, drinking ones self insensate

Enlistment: 	auto	Must fail enlistment elsewhere
Injury: 		10-	DM +1 if Str, Dex, End, Int 7+
Commission: 	n/a	
Promotion: 	4-	DM +2 if Any Charisma skill 3+
Continuance: 	9-	Must roll, even if you want to quit

	Physical															Mental																				Educational
1	Gun Combat						-1 int																						Performance
2	+1 end														+1 int																						Performance
3	-1 str																		-1 soc																				Gambling
4	brawling												Jack of All Trades		Bribery
5	-1 end																Chemistry														Clandestine
6	Blade Combat				First Aid																Language

	Social														Career																	Background
1	Streetwise					Camouflauge							Athletics
2	Dance												Streetwise											Throwing
3	Charisma							Forgery															Law
4	Fast Talk							Perception											Streetwise
5	Intimidation			Intrusion													Streetwise
6	Leadership					Survival														Jack of All Trades

Table of Ranks
E-1 Street Kid
E-2 Bum
E-3 Tramp
E-4 Homeless
E-5 Hobo
E-6 Colourful Local

Skill Eligibility	
2 per term		
1 per promotion	
Rank and Service Skills
Streetwise-1

Mustering Out Tables
Cash Table								Benefits Table
1	(2d6)/10									1	Horrible Rash
2	2d6																	2	Secret Stash of Booze
3	2d6 x 5											3	New Clothes
4	2d6 x 10									4	-1 Int and -1 Edu
5	2d6 x 20									5	Shopping Cart
6	2d6 x 100							6	A Second Chance (free move to another career)
																								+1 if Rank E-3+

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:30:05 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Under your rules, the goal of the screening force is to do as much
> *damage* as possible, then get the hell out of there. And the interval
> between when the courier arrives and when the invaders arrive is
> determined by the difference in jump drive capability between the
> courier and the *slowest* ships in the invading fleet.
> 
> So instead of *hours* of warning, you get *days* of warning. This
> totally screws strategy and tactics.
> 
> Traveller is based on the idea that word of an attack can't travel
> faster than the attackers. You've thrown that away. "Pearl Harbor"
> attacks are a much more difficult proposition in your universe.

Actually, Leonard, I don't think my system will effect combat the way you 
are saying.  I have a lot to say to defend my system against your 
comments, but, because of Glenn's incredible post, I am now a believer.  
My comments have become moot.

You are arguing game mechanics.  What I was looking for is for someone to 
give me an acceptible explanation why time in jump space requires one 
week.  You're basically saying that it is because "Pearl Harbor attacks 
are not possible under my system" (and I totally disagree with that).  

Read Glenn's post.  He directly addresses why time in jumpspace takes so 
long--and is constant for each type of j-drive.  He doesn't say, "It's 
because it interferes with combat", or "It screws up the 
communication/economic system basic to Traveller", or even "That it makes 
jump-1 ships sitting ducks."  What he addresses is the technology, and he 
did it so well that I--firmly entrenched with the idea that the 
one-week-no-matter-what system was completely arbritary--am forced to 
agree with him.

It looks like I lost this one, but I'm glad I did.  It may not seem so, 
but I actually like the cannon--I just want it to make sense.

Thanks for the effort, though.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 16:40:59 -0400
Subject: Spires Reply

Derek Stanley wrote:
>Okay time for me to rant again.  I hate ranting but unfortunately I've 
>never seen anything that would indicate that Spires was ever colonized 
>by the Rule of Man.  Or anything else, worlds colonized during anytime 
>period are usually mentioned quite proudly in their background.  I feel 
>from the limited information present and a number of key lines that 
>Spiri are a minor race seeded by the ancients 300k ago.

Well I think they would mention something like the Spiri being a minor
race. Also they don't mention in POT, when any of the other major
worlds were settled.
Anyway, we have had this discussion before, and I think we can agree to
disagree here.

>I never imagined Spires smelling like a garbage dump, but okay.  I always 
>though it was more along the line of an airborne virus that the local 
>populace was totally immune to.  Harded to detect and far more incidious. 
> I like the idea of obsidian tools, pop bottle bottems and china plates 
>also make extremely nice projectile points, I took a course in university.

Well Brian (my player) and I thought Spires sounded like a relativity new 
planet, mainly because of the lack of fossil fuels.  So we came up with
the volcanoes, and the obsidian.  And since Spires had a tainted
atmosphere. it seemed to be logical to make it all connected. I threw
in the smell at the last moment, as I was writing it up.

>	To a colonly put in place by and advanced civilization surface 
>deposits of useful metals are nice but you know how to dig a mine.
I thought that they meant that there were no metals in the crust of the
planet, so you would have to dig huge mile long tunnels to get to any
metals that are in the upper mantle.  

I'd love to hear any more comments you or anyone else has. (Hint Hint Hint) :)


Lewis Roberts
- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why Don't Cannibals Eat Clowns?  lewis@chara.gsu.edu
A:They taste funny!                http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #531
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 532

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         2. Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
         3. Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply
         4. Re: Time Traveller 
         5. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump 
         6. Auction Update
         7. Moving stars
         8. RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump 
         9. Re: [T96#510] Alternate World Generation
        10. Re: [T96#505] Cleon and the Marches
        11. Re: [T96#511] TNS Proposal
        12. Re: [T96#504] Unobtainium and General Products
        13. Re: [T96#508] T4 Task System
        14. Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
        15. Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply
        16. Re: Ship mission/design question
        17. Time Traveller, timeloc vs. a multiverse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:40:29 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> And nobody knows *why* the speed of light has the value it does. It
> just is. Belief has nothing to do with it. It's an observable fact.

Point taken, Leonard.  See my comments in response to Glenn's post.  You might be 
pleasantly surprised that we are now in agreement.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:55:09 -0700
Subject: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

So, Leonard, on a little witch hunt for those cannon bashers, are we?

You've attacked me and the DGP Starship Op Manual (conflictingly, I might add), Eris' 
jump system, and the formula posited by Michael Koehne.

The problem is that you are just playing devil's advocate with each of the 
systems--attacking whatever is attackable--with no sense of a point or position.

Let me give you a little advice.  Next time you want to make an argument, don't just 
argue.  Keep in mind the point you are trying to make, and drive it home.  When you 
attack everything in sight, from different points of view, you blow your credibility.

And, I didn't mean this in a bad way, so I hope you don't take it so.

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:10:04 PST
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply

In mail you write:

> 7. The many human races, whether descended from *Homo Erectus*, *Homo
> Habilis* or early *Homo Sapiens* would still be quite close
> genetically even after 200k years. The question is whether they would
> have drifted far enough to cease being *interfertile* and able to
> produce *fertile offspring* (the definition of a species!).

Please note that there is strong evidence that humans, chimps, and
gorillas are interfertile, though no one is about the try the
experiment, even in vitro.

The "gap" here is about 3 *million* years.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:17:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Time Traveller 

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>Timelock means luck acts to prevent time travellers from creating 
>>inconsistencies.  Generally speaking, the more bull-headed one is 
>>about trying to change the past, the worse you can hurt yourself with 
>>timelock.  It hurts more to try walking through a wall at 100 mph than
>>at 1 mph.
>
> The implication that an omnipotent force protects casuality rankles my hard
> science fiction neck hairs.

 "Better read the papers physics types are writing. Because that's
  *exactly* what they suggest. If time travel is possible, it
  *immediately* restricts available actions in certain circumstances,
  because otherwise, it'd be possible to create various nasty problems.
  The odd thing is that they didn't have to add any rules to do this. The
  *existing* rules for particle interactions do it on their own."

I knew Kip Thorne and that lot would catch up with us gamers eventually. (-:

 "Now consider the "fun" with *real* time travel.
  ...
 "You, of course, want no part of this, as you rem,ember what happened to
  the future you. But all your efforts *will* be in vain. Because the
  wave function only has one possible outcome. You go back, and die. All
  other "possibilities" have a probability of *zero*, while anything that
  gets you into the machine has a high probability."

Just as our in-house name for paradox-prevention is "timelock," our 
name for this kind of thing is "fating."  Typically, our PCs *hate* to 
learn about their personal futures, because even if they don't learn 
anything unpleasant, you get this nasty constricted feeling about upcoming
events.  Besides, if someone *starts* to tell you the future, you never 
know how it's going to turn out until it's too late.

There is a possible way around this.  Sometimes.  If you're lucky and 
industrious.  I call it "causal substitution."  The way you'd do it 
in the example given is to heartlessly commision a clone, give him the 
proper education, and throw him to the time-travel researchers, who 
mistake him for you.  In fact *he* mistakes himself for you, and thus 
proclaims himself as you when you meet, or met.  Then he dies in your 
place.  Or rather, it was always him who died, rather than you.

Not very moral, in this case.  Maybe there's a better dodge.  Perhaps 
you could go time-traveling yourself and bribe the coroners to give 
false testimony about your dead "self's" DNA, having thoughtfully bought 
a life-like replica robot, suitably programmed, sent back in your place, 
etc.

The nub is that the events that happened, happened.  You can just try 
to embroider the context of the events to make them mean something else.
It's very tricky and usually doesn't work.  But it illustrates the 
adventure possibilities of immutable-time-travel.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 17:20:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump 

That Computer Guy wrote:
> To be honest, I would probably say that jump should be a combination of
> grid and fuel for coolant.  I like the idea that the hull is doing the
> energizing and entering of j-space, but I am also enamored with the idea
> that the j-drive and engineer actually have something to do once in
> jump.

Jerry, 

I always have something for the engineer to do, but I like this all-important task as 
well.  I think Glenn's comments were stupendous.

FYI, if you need more for your engineers to do, there is something in TNE that I use as 
a guide.  Each TNE ship has a listed amount of weekly hours required to keep up 
maintenance.  For example, the subsidized merchant requires 180 hrs.  On our ship (in my 
campaign), the chief engineer is in charge of the maintenance crew.  We've got four of 
the crew members on this maintenance detail--each putting in about 45 hrs a week.  

Our pilot, for instance, has virutally nothing to do in jump space, but he is also our 
chief mechanic.  His job in jump space is to fix, troubleshoot, and maintain all of the 
mechanical devices aboard ship.  He puts in 8-10 hrs a day, while in jump space, doing 
these types of tasks.  

Another thing that this is useful for is to calculate the number of free time a 
character has aboard ship.  A player might say, "I want to start studing Navigation so 
that my character can get a skill in it.  Let's see, that's one and two and six weeks 
that we've been in jumpspace over the last couple of months.  That should be six weeks 
worth of time that my character has had to study."

Not so, I say.  Your character was indeed in jump space, but you are also the 
pilot/chief mechanic.  You spend 45 hrs a week, while in jump space, taking care of all 
things mechanical.  You need to sleep 5 to 8 hrs a day as well, so, if you used all of 
your free time (which is highly unlikely--people need recreation time is a requirement 
in my book) studying, you've only racked up 36 hrs in that six weeks actually studying 
navigation.

It's just a suggestion,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:19:10 -0400
Subject: Auction Update

I've upped the close date of the auction to Wednesday, October 16th.  I
don't anticipate any problems with this change.

				
All bids are to be emailed to me directly and I will post current high bids
to this list .  

If anyone does not want me posting their email address on these updates,
let me know and I will assign you an anonymous #. 

			
1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir	$5.00	stormhvn@inreach.com				
						
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on          Mithril	$5.00
scrawlsfts@aol.com				
						
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death     Station       $4.00
petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague	$7.00	sennafan@rust.net				
 						
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention   $7.00  sennafan@rust.net				
 						
6.  Book 8: Robots	$20.00	balcom@dayton.net				
 						
7.  JTAS No. 5	$15.00	richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil				
 						
8.  JTAS No. 6	$6.00	ewatters@queens-belfast.ac.uk				
 						
9.  JTAS No.7 	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
10. JTAS No.7	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
11.  JTAS No.11	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
12.  JTAS No. 12	$5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani 	$21.00	anonymous1				
 						
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	$8.00	sennafan@rust.net				
						
16.  101 Vehicles	$12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit 	$8.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
18.Flaming EyeCampaignSourcebook  $23.00    scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 			
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	$9.00  anonymous1				
 						
20.  Far Traveller No. 1 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
21.  High Passage No. 2  	$10.00	scarab1@earthlink.net				
 						
22.  High Passage No. 3	$15.00	jlockett@io.com				
 						
23.  High Passage No. 4 	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
24.  High Passage No. 5 	$12.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed. 	$10.00	goldendj@usa.net				
 
Recipients will be notified via email as to total cost with shipping.
Payment in U.S. funds only please (check or money order, no cash).
Items paid by check will be sent as soon as the check clears the bank. 
Items paid by money order will be shipped the next day.  


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:53:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Moving stars

Hi.

Andy Lilly wrote:

>From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:38:28 +0100
>Subject: Those damnable unexplored Core worlds

>Once again, two suggestions:
>(1) Re wrong world positions, etc. Could anyone with a space science
>background tell me if the relative motions of star systems cause the
>positions to "appear" to change on the map due to it being only a 2D
>representation, and effectively being a map of jump space rather than real
>space?

A "typical" star will move about 1/10000th the speed of light relative
to its neighbors. This means that it would take this star 10000 years to
move one lightyear, or thirty thousand years to move a parsec.

A relatively quick star might move about ten times faster, moving a parsec
(relative to its neighbors) in 3000 years. (See Appendix 13 of Abell,
4th Ed.)

Really unusual stars may move even faster.

Over the course of 1000 years, I'd be surprised if more than 5% of the
stars shifted by as much as one hex. And that counts stars that are near
"hex boundaries" and cross over.

>(2) Why aren't the Core Worlds explored? Unlikely that they're not explored
>- - the data just isn't available to your average person. If the Syleans had a

This strikes me as much more plausible. It's how I'm handling the
situation till I get "canoned" by a better idea from IG.

- -Rob

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump 

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 08 Oct 1996 17: 20:01 PDT
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:57:24 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: That Computer Guy wrote:
: > To be honest, I would probably say that jump should be a combination of
: > grid and fuel for coolant.  I like the idea that the hull is doing the
: > energizing and entering of j-space, but I am also enamored with the idea
: > that the j-drive and engineer actually have something to do once in
: > jump.
: 
: Jerry, 
:  
: I always have something for the engineer to do, but I like this
: all-important task as well.  I think Glenn's comments were stupendous. 

I think that they were pretty good too.  I do however think that his
first explanation was better than the second.  Personally, I don't like
the idea of getting really hot and then taking a week to cool off.

: FYI, if you need more for your engineers to do, there is something in
: TNE tha t I use as a guide.  Each TNE ship has a listed amount of weekly
: hours required to keep up maintenance.  For example, the subsidized

I'm not saying that the engineers need more to do.  Heavens there's
enough for them to do on a ship.  I am saying that I like what TNE did
by not making the j-drive just a piece of metal that did nothing during
jump.  I'm not saying the engineer needs to sit around it 24-7, but I am
saying it's a system like any other that should be looked over once a
shift/day/etc...

As a suggestion, could you please make sure that your editor wraps your
text around at 72 columns or so.  As it stands, your posts are pretty
ugly to read and even uglier to respond to.

       --Jerry
       
8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#510] Alternate World Generation

Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu> writes

T::>Brian A. Howard said:
 ::>> Someone a few digests back mentioned an alternate UWP generation
 ::>> sequence, but I lost the reference. Could someone please send me the URL
 ::>> of the web-page that this alternative-rule is located?

T::>It's probably elsewhere as well, but there's on at:
 ::>   http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/altWorldGeneration.html

 From which I scarfed it up Monday night, and intend to go over
 it in detail and update it for T4, after which it will be
 republished under the original authors' names in Freelance
 Traveller.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ My modem can beat up your modem

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#505] Cleon and the Marches

"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> writes

T::>Trent Smith said:
 ::>to explore them, but we might be able to assume that density increases as
 ::>you approach the Marches as well (which isn't necessarily true, but it could
 ::>be!) and that some crackpot theorists were able to predict that the

T::>I've got a neet-o adventure along thes lines (skewed towards CT 3I, but could
 ::>easily be adapted to any milieu.  Only problem is that it's a jumbo file.
 ::>Kinda big to just toss out on TML.  But maybe I could put it on somebody's
 ::>website...  I've never uploaded to a website, how does that work?

 Instead of trying to confuse yourself (you can, if you want,
 but...), why not just email it to me at the Freelance Traveller
 address - that way, I'll look at it, correct it for spelling
 and grammar, and add it, under your name, to Freelance
 Traveller, where lots of people can read it, and make the
 concept more successful.

 The Freelance Traveller address is jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com
 for mail, and http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/
 for looking at the actual web pages.

 (It's really not all that complicated to set up a web page, or
 to upload to one that permits it, but I want to drum up some
 business...)

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Software Independent: Won't work with ANY software.



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#511] TNS Proposal

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au

T::>     I'd like to see some news items on the Imperium Games TNS Web page! If
 ::>     IG don't have the time, I'm sure some of us on this list would be
 ::>     happy to draft up a few 'messages' (me! me! me!). Safety guidelines
 ::>     might be:

 [deletion of very interesting idea, to save space]

T::>     Comments? A light toasting over open flames?

 If IG says that they're not interested, or sits silent,
 Freelance Traveller will be _really_ happy to start up the
 Freewire to do it!  We're eagerly seeking correspondents; no
 experience necessary.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Remember when "PC" didn't mean "Politically Correct"?



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#504] Unobtainium and General Products

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes

[deletia about Niven's Known Space and General Products]

T::>It's *obviously* alien technology. Transparent except where the inside
 ::>is coated with something, indestructible, and with tantalizing glimpses
 ::>of alien devices inside.

T::>Many, many possibilities for involving the players.

T::>1. they find it
 ::>2. somebody else finds it, and hires the players to try to track it
 ::>   back to where it came from.
 ::>3. like 2, but they hire the players to help track it (ie the hirer
 ::>   goes with them)
 ::>4. Like 2, but it's an imperial agency or a megacorp.
 ::>5. like 4, but with a representative of the hirer on board, running the
 ::>   show.
 ::>6. ???

 6.  A variant of the Annic Nova adventure.  As soon as I can
 find my copy, if this thread is still going, I'll post some
 conversion notes.

 7.  (a mixture of recognizable and strange tech inside)  It's
 an experimental concept model being worked on by a megacorp -
 but it's a failure.  All of the previous attempts misjumped;
 this is the only one that misjumped to where it could be found.
 Worse, all six attempts were crewed (two or three at the most);
 there is no sign of anyone aboard (Andrea Doria syndrome?).
 When this ship disappeared, the corp terminated the project and
 destroyed all the notes (if they kept them, they would be
 evidence of severe violations of Sylean Federal/Imperial laws).

 8.  (no strange tech visible - except for the hull itself)
 Upon boarding, no life is found - not even microbial.
 Examination of the Master's Safe and the computer reveal that
 it is a quite ordinary Imperial/Sylean Federation-registered
 ship, with a Jump-2 drive - and indeed it is, except for the
 unusual hull.  A check of records will reveal that the ship
 filed a "flight plan" between two planets Jump-1 apart on the
 Sylean main, both of which are at least seven parsecs away.
 The ship had been due to arrive at its destination within a
 couple of days of its being found.

 For 7 and 8, obviously the players involvement is either as
 finders or investigators.  Complications ensue due to the
 assumed high risk of attempting to jump, and trying to figure
 out _why_ the ship exists in its present form.

 In both 7 and 8, if the players find the ship, they now have a
 dilemma - how do they account for the fact that there's no life
 aboard?  If they report it, they just might be suspected of
 being the cause of the lack of life aboard...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Nice computers don't go down on you...


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#508] T4 Task System

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> writes

T::>The task at this point was to space walk to the station, crack the hull,
 ::>and begin exploring for answers.  One of my players wanted to find out
 ::>more about the unidentified aliens, and he suggested space walking to one
 ::>of the larger sections of the destroyed ship to see if he could somehow
 ::>salvage any information from the alien computer.

T::>This character has computer-4 and Edu 9.  That gives him a target number
 ::>of 13.

T::>Given the condition of the destroyed ship--there were just pieces of it
 ::>floating around, but they were large enough to walk around in to expore
 ::>sections of the hull and several decks--I decided that this had to be an
 ::>impossible throw.

T::>I was horrified when I realized what the character had to throw for
 ::>success.  The average of 4 D6 is 14--50% of the time, 14 or less will be
 ::>thrown.  The character's target number was 13--ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW!

 [deletia]

T::>So, what do all of you think about this?

 I think you made a minor goof here - while the math is correct,
 you misdefined the task.  It's really several tasks:

 (1)  locate and identify the computer.  If it's alien, it may
      not look like what they expect a computer to look like.
      Even if it does, there may not be enough to identify.

 (2)  determine if it appears to be intact enough to be
      functional, or at least that there is enough left to be
      able to reconstruct it and decipher the architecture.

 (2a) reconstruct, if sufficient pieces in acceptable condition
      are available.

 (3)  decipher the architecture.  This includes identifying
      control channels and ports (or their equivalent), which
      may mean that you have to spend a lot of time doing with
      that ship/station what the NTSB has been doing with the
      pieces of TWA800.

 (4)  Get the computer working, or simulate it on your own
      computers.

 (4a) Interface the alien mass storage units to your computer,
      so you can examine the alien software and data.

 (5)  Identify alien programs.  This task needs to be dealt with
      separately for each program, but related programs can be
      made progressively easier as earlier program are
      identified.

 (6)  Correlate alien data from programs with your own data.

 (7)  Apply information learned from correlations to further
      iterations of steps 5 and 6.

 Even for one program, with a 50% success rate, you're dealing
 with 7 to 9 rolls - at best (7 tasks), a predicted success rate
 of one in 128, or less than one percent.  Also, any of these
 tasks can also have DMs - for example, it'd be a lot harder to
 succeed at 3 if 2a fails or is unavailable.

 The virtue of a complex task system such as TNE or T4 is that
 it allows customization of a character's ability to accomplish
 something to a greater extent than the CT "8+ with DMs" method.

 The pitfall is in defining the tasks.  Defining too broad a
 task on something can lead to improbable probabilities, like
 the original example.

 I think it would have been a good idea to have said this in the
 T4 task rules.  I may do a more extensive/more formal write up
 for Freelance Traveller.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?


------------------------------

From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@IO.COM>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:44:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

This should have probably been sent straight to Leonard.  I'd just like
to say that I have agreed with or found interesting most of his posts.
I'm actually curious about the problems with Traveller's Meson gun since
I don't really know enough physics to predict meson behavior.

On a related note, technology in Traveller comes in two flavors.  That
which is predicted by current scientific knowledge, such as lasers,
fusion power, gauss weapons, etc...  These are all based on principles
that we currently understand even if we can't make use of them yet.
The other category is that which has no explanation given our current
understanding.  Thrust plates, jump drives, and contragravity all fall
into this category.  The behavior of these technologies is going to be
arbirtrary.  In the Traveller universe, the nature of the Imperium
and galactic civilization is tied to the way these work.  Now only
Marc Miller knows which came first, his view of the technology or
his view of the society.  Regardless, any variation of jump drives,
thrust plates, or contragravity is equally valid as far as we know.
If you like, you can make up a story to explain how they work, using
J-space, warps in the space-time continuim, currently unknown particles,
etc...  These theories don't need to be defended and can't be attacked,
except where they are internally inconsistent or conflict with our
current knowledge.

Okay... I'll stop now.

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> So, Leonard, on a little witch hunt for those cannon bashers, are we?
> 
> You've attacked me and the DGP Starship Op Manual (conflictingly, I might add), Eris' 
> jump system, and the formula posited by Michael Koehne.
> 
> The problem is that you are just playing devil's advocate with each of the 
> systems--attacking whatever is attackable--with no sense of a point or position.
> 
> Let me give you a little advice.  Next time you want to make an argument, don't just 
> argue.  Keep in mind the point you are trying to make, and drive it home.  When you 
> attack everything in sight, from different points of view, you blow your credibility.
> 
> And, I didn't mean this in a bad way, so I hope you don't take it so.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Kenneth.
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:42:27 +0000
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > 7. The many human races, whether descended from *Homo Erectus*, *Homo
> > Habilis* or early *Homo Sapiens* would still be quite close
> > genetically even after 200k years. The question is whether they would
> > have drifted far enough to cease being *interfertile* and able to
> > produce *fertile offspring* (the definition of a species!).
> 
> Please note that there is strong evidence that humans, chimps, and
> gorillas are interfertile, though no one is about the try the
> experiment, even in vitro.

Where did you read that?
My sources (am trying to find names and titles) say even though we are 99.5%+ 
genetically identical there is no possible way to be interfertile

------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:39:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Ship mission/design question

Bruce Johnson wrote:

"How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
low passage) one way, and bulk materials back? (It's an end of the line
type
world, so you cant just go on with each type of ship to a further
destination)"

    If I was a free trader I would only haul which ever was the most
profitable and make the return trip empty, but only if I could make a
profit and if there were not any more attractive routes at hand.
    If there is no profit to be made shipping the Living Cargo for a
trader, then party needing to have the Living Cargo shipped may have to
purchase the low berths themselves and pay to have them sent as freight to
the destination world with the Living Cargo.  Then they would have  to pay
to have the low berths shipped back empty for use with the next shipment of
Living Cargo.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm) 


------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 15:40 PDT
Subject: Time Traveller, timeloc vs. a multiverse

A couple of detractors write:

>From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
>
>A restatement in Plain English is:
>
>	You can't change your own past.
>
>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:26:42 PST
>Subject: Re: Time Traveller
>
>
>Better read the papers physics types are writing. Because that's (timelock)
>*exactly* what they suggest. If time travel is possible, it
>
>You are describing "serial universes", and as such, it's not time
>travel *at all*. The big catch is that there's no requirement for them
>to be identical. 
>
>The events are linked *instanteously*. You can't fool mother nature.
>- -- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Sorry, have to disagree with you both there, you aren't terribly current on
your relatavistic cosmology...

http://www3.edgenet.net/jrk/physics/Time_Travel.html

and

http://www3.edgenet.net/jrk/physics/index.html


these are good URL's full of links to relatavistic cosmology on time travel,
and 
here are some excerpts from the "Everything you always wanted to know about Time
Travel" links...

From, Is Time Travel Possible? by John and Mary Gribbin

"And all this, it is worth spelling out, has been published by serious
scientists in respectable journals such as Physical Review Letters (you
don't believe us? check out volume 61, page 1446)." 

"So how do you get around the paradoxes? The scientists have an
answer to that, too. It's obvious, when you think about it; all you have
to do is add in a judicious contribution from quantum theory to the time
travelling allowed by relativity theory. As long as you are an expert in
both theories, you can find a way to avoid the paradoxes.

It works like this. According to one interpretation of quantum
physics (there are several interpretations, and nobody knows which
one, if any, is "right"), every time a quantum object, such as an
electron, is faced with a choice, the world divides to allow it to take
every possibility on offer. In the simplest example, the electron may
be faced with a wall containing two holes, so that it must go through
one hole or the other. The Universe splits so that in one version of
reality -- one set of relative dimensions -- it goes through the hole on
the left, while in the other it goes through the hole on the right.
Pushed to its limits, this interpretation says that the Universe is
split into infinitely many copies of itself, variations on a basic theme,
in which all possible outcomes of all possible "experiments" must
happen somewhere in the "multiverse". So there is, for example, a
Universe in which the Labour Party has been in power for 15 years, and
is now under threat from a resurgent Tory Party led by vibrant young
John Major.

How does this resolve the paradoxes? Like this. Suppose someone
did go back in time to murder their granny when she was a little girl. 
On this multiverse picture, they have slid back to a bifurcation point in
history. After killing granny, they move forward in time, but up a
different branch of the multiverse. In this branch of reality, they were
never born; but there is no paradox, because in he universe next door
granny is alive and well, so the murderer is born, and goes back in time
to commit the foul deed!

But this idea of parallel universes and alternative histories as a solution
to the time travel
paradoxes is also now being taken seriously by some (admittedly, not many)
researchers, including David Deutsch, in Oxford. Their research deals with
both time, and relative dimensions in space. You could make a nice acronym
for that -- TARDIS, perhaps?"
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #532
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 533

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Public Apology to Leonard Erickson
         2. The Theory of a Mad Scientist: Jump Space (somewhat long)
         3. Questions about T4
         4. Re: [T96#508] T4 Task System
         5. Re: My hobbies...
         6. Re: Flame-proof-vesty-bunny (Religion)
         7. Re: SPI and TSR and GDW
         8. Re: NIKITA
         9. Re: NIKITA
        10. Re: Female PC's
        11. Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)
        12. Re: Social Acceptance...
        13. Re: Cleon & The marches
        14. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        15. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        16. Re: Cmdr Hold'Em 's comments
        17. Re: My hobbies...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:43:06 -0700
Subject: Public Apology to Leonard Erickson

Leonard,

I want to apologize to you if I came across too strong in the "Cannon Basher vs. Leonard 
Erickson" post.  I want to make it clear that I appreciate your comments--whether I 
agree with them or not.  I had no intention of changing the friendly nature of this mail 
list.

I feel that I took a wrong turn in writing my message.  I don't want it to be seen as 
though I am criticizing you instead of your post.  Once you hit the send key, it 
is written in stone, and you can't change it.  

Please forgive any misguided wordings.  My intentions were sincere.

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:46:06 -0700
Subject: The Theory of a Mad Scientist: Jump Space (somewhat long)

While I don't have the SOH I do have a theory about JumpSpace as it has been
represented in traveller.  According to my theory:

Think of Jumpspace as a fluid inside a large globe.  You are at the globes
center in realspace. As with the ocean the fluid is divided into levels.
Each level having its own characteristic Density.  Closest to the core of
the globe is Jump-1.  While it is most easily entered it is also the slowest
medium to travel due to 'density'.  Each level is seperated from the other
by a thermoclime or an energy threshold that must be met to surpase it and
enter the next higher level.  

In addition every point (probably gravity wells) in real space has a
correspondig point in JumpSpace in the proper level.  All things being
relative: all the objects at 1 parsec distance are at level one.  Objects at
6 parsecs are at level 6 and so on ...  Keeping with the sphere idea all
points within each level are equidistant.  Thus with a fixed density and
distance no matter the jump capability all points will take 4 to 7 days to
reach.  

For instance a Jump-6 ship decides to jump to a planet only 3 parsecs away.
Even though it has a jump-6 the only way to reach that planet from its
current position is to enter level 3.  Once in level three the ship heads to
the planet.  Since 'density' of the level is fixed (one must allow for
current thus the random amount of time it takes) the ship will still take
the 1 week.  
Now take the same ship.  They decide to jump to a planet 6 parsecs away.
They enter level 6 by pumping the required energy to the engines and...
Inside level 6 all planets 6 parsecs away are equidistant and the fixed
density requires 1 week. 

IMHO 8-P

Any thoughts? Please share them.

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:11:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Questions about T4

Hi,

>From time to time over the last six months or so, I've called Ken Whitman 
and discussed Traveller, its future, its past, and the specifics of 
Imperium Games' products.  

Today, I called Ken to ask whether he had received the edited copy of T4 
which I sent him (he had), and he had a question for /me/ for once:  Would 
I be the official TML contact for IG?

"Hey you nuns, want to meet the pope?" :)  That was an easy question for 
me to answer. ;)

So, when you have questions about the basic Traveller rulebook (or future IG 
products, once they're released), please direct them to me.  If I am 
unable to answer your question, I will contact the folks at IG and relay 
their answer to you.  

Oh, and one more thing:  Go easy on me, eh? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 19:21:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#508] T4 Task System

JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> writes
>  T::>I was horrified when I realized what the character had to throw for
>  ::>success.  The average of 4 D6 is 14--50% of the time, 14 or less will be
>  ::>thrown.  The character's target number was 13--ON AN IMPOSSIBLE THROW!

 
>  I think you made a minor goof here - while the math is correct,
>  you misdefined the task.  It's really several tasks:

	(snippage of several steps to recover a computer core from an alien ship)

>  Even for one program, with a 50% success rate, you're dealing
>  with 7 to 9 rolls - at best (7 tasks), a predicted success rate
>  of one in 128, or less than one percent.  Also, any of these
>  tasks can also have DMs - for example, it'd be a lot harder to
>  succeed at 3 if 2a fails or is unavailable.

Jeff, I think that you are missing my point here.  I only gave the example of play to 
illustrate my point further.  In reality, the players decided not to go to the alien 
ship to find information in favor of saving time and speeding to the station to save any 
survivors.

I guess I could have said:  Given that you are on a piece of an exploded alien ship, and 
that you have found an intact computer core, and you have all the equipment, etc, 
etc...your chance of gaining information from that computer core is governed by an 
Impossible task throw.

You are not seeing the forest for the trees here.  As a GM, I realized the we are going 
to have problems down the road if a character, with pretty good, but not incredible, 
skills can make an Impossible throw 44% of the time.  There is definitely a problem with 
the task system here--regardless of the actual encounter that I used to illustrate it.

Besides, there will be times when only one Impossible task throw is called for instead 
of a situation where you can cheat the odds by making the character make multiple task 
throws.  When this situation comes up, I want an Impossible task to be nearly 
impossible--not closer to average.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

PS 
BTW, I really like what you are doing with Freelance Traveller.  We need more people 
like yourself.  Maybe I'll send something in, and maybe we can post this new task system 
when we all, here on TML, get it hacked out.

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:57:11 -0700
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> > Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . . and you can't
> > believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell people about the Society for
> > Creative Anachronism. They think the initials stand for "Satan's Church in America."
> 
> I though it stood for Society for Creative Anarchism

That's per Illuminati: New World Order (my favorite CCG). There are _other_ acronyms, 
too ;)

- --Rich "Insomminac" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:28:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Flame-proof-vesty-bunny (Religion)

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
>
> 
> I save that for anyone arriving at my door trying to: (a) survey me, (b)
> convert me to their religion. Works real well when you've got overalls with
> large red smears down the front... (it's paint, ok? But they don't know that!)
> 
> Reminds me of my friend who used to invite in Mormons, sit them down
> opposite his array of occult books, offer them tea, coffee or alcohol, then
> spend an hour ripping their religion to shreds and mentioning, in passing,
> the pentacle inscribed on his floor under the carpet. Never seen people move
> so fast for the door... :-) (hope this doesn't offend any Mormons on the
> group. I'm an agnostic, so I keep an open mind but I'm more likely to
> believe in flying saucers than the 'average' person's view of God).

My NeoPagan friends have a pouch of brochures explaining "the Craft" located inside 
their door. When evangelical religious folks come to the door, _they_ get the 
informative brochure ;)   
> 
> 
> Beltane. Now that's fun!

Big-time fun:)

<<deletia>>
> 
> Come on guys (and gals, remembering recent sexism debate), let's see a
> little more positive "GET OUT THERE AND PROMOTE IT". It's very easy to sit
> at a terminal and type all this stuff, particularly the doom and gloom about
> how T4's got errata. Hell! (ooops can I say that with all these religious
> types around?) I've been writing technical reports for years and I go
> through them with a fine toothcomb and they're reviewed by others and...
> etc. Needless to say there are always some errors.

Damned right! My game's now running on the front-room table at the FLGS . . . and, yes, 
it's ON SUNDAY!! I'm amazed that I'm still alive ;)
 
> So, stop talking and get out there and do your bit in converting people to
> T4!!!!

Hmmm . . . . maybe I can combine the appeal of religion and RPGs, since my game is run n 
Sunday. Rich's T4 Crusade? I dunno; makes the GM sound like Billy Graham. Rich Refs  T4 
Jihad? Sounds like a vampire thing.

<<Brain on random; too little sleep and altogether too little caffeine. Bloody 
insomnia . . .>>
> 
> And if you want more than one adventure for Milieu 0, then e-mail me telling
> you what you want CORE and BITS to publish next!!!

One word, Andy: Pirates. I'll email you my vision when I'm a little more coherent. 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:36:20 -0700
Subject: Re: SPI and TSR and GDW

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> 
> (Feeling the blood pressure rising rapidly)  Grrrrrrrr
> In the summer between my junior and senior years of high school, I worked a
> morning paper route so that I could get a lifetime subscription to S&T.  I did
> so, and that fall SPI vanished.  I was enraged at TSR for their pathetic
> "discount" offer, and made a blood oath to never buy TSR stuff again.  Later, I
> heard that the powers-that-were at SPI were well aware of their financial
> instability when they began their big lifetime subscription advertising push,
> and had been largely trying to sell subscriptions to make the company look a
> little more appealing for potential acqiusition.  I've never heard the "real
> story" from the SPI people (and I would love to hear it), but this version is
> one I've heard several times in newsgroups and in print.

A second thing that arose from the SPI debacle: I *never* subscribe to a magazine. If I 
want to buy a game magazine, I ask my Friendly Local Game Store Owner to fetch it for 
me. 

> 
> One good thing came of that; I did have enough money left to go to a really big
> science fiction convention that summer.  While strolling the market tables for
> some good books, I found this little black box with red and white lettering.

That black box with white lettering and a tasteful red stripe made the packaging of the 
original edition of DND look _sick_. Lotsa good memories associated with that tasteful 
game box . . . .

> My friend and I stayed up all that night learning the rules and playing
> Traveller.  Just as something I loved died, something else came into my life.
> Intersting how all of them involved three letter acronyms.

Good _and_ bad things come in threes . . . .
> 
> I like symmetry.

I like tasteful boxes, too ;)


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:43:10 -0700
Subject: Re: NIKITA

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> > >      the film (I nearly walked out after the first scene), but I class it
> > >      in my top 5 favourite films now.  The soundtrack makes good back
> > >      background music for gaming sessions too :-).
> > >
> > >      I can't wait for Luc Besson's sci-fi flick to come out.
> > >
> >
> > Extraordinary movie, I know what you mean. Someone on the list did post
> > the actual US name of the American re-make but I haven't been able to
> > find it. What was the name of the French actress?
> >
> 
> The American remake with Bridget Fonda is "Point of No Return".  Unless
> you're a big Bridget Fonda fan, don't bother seeing it if you've seen "La
> Femme Nikita" since it is exaclty the same movie, except in English.
> 
> I went into a rental place to get the american film, walked out with the
> French one since they were out of the former.  Three weeks later rented
> the American version and had Deja Vu all throught the flick.

I'll have to see _La Femme Nikita_ . . . .Maybe seeing that flick will get that damned 
song from _That Thing You Do!_ out of my head. Sophia wanted to see it yesterday, and 
her Dadster delivered.

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:57:16 -0700
Subject: Re: NIKITA

Liam McCauley wrote:
<<deletia>>

> 
> You missed the chance to see Nikita at the cinema?  Poor fool ;-).  It's
> well worth seeing if you get the chance - the experience is so much more
> intense than video.

Maybe the revival cinemas in Sacramento will run it again . . . .

> 
>      Tell me more about this Sci fi movie? and what are your other five
>      favourite films?
> 
> Well, I have about twenty top-five favourite films ;-), but here's a few:
> Star Wars IV-VI(natch), Alien, Aliens, The Terminator, Reservoir Dogs, The
> Usual Suspects, Nikita, Leon, When Harry Met Sally, Rear Window, Some Like
> it Hot, The African Queen, Groundhog Day, Strictly Ballroom, Cyrano do
> Bergerac... I'd better stop there.

Hmmm . . . all the sf flicks you list make my list, as does _The African Queen_. I'd add 
_Eating Raoul_, _El Cid_, _Exodus_ (the theme and opening title sequence brings tears to 
my eyes), _The Dirty Dozen_, _The Green Berets_, _Patton_, _Monty Python and the Holy 
Grail_, _Ran_(Kurosarwa meets _King Lear_), _Same Time Next Year_, the Dirty Harry 
movies _Sudden Impact_ and _The Enforcer_, and _Henry V_ (with Kenneth Branaugh).

<<deletia>>

Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:31:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Female PC's

Robert Flammang wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> SCRAWLSFTS said:
> 
> >From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
> >Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:42:11 -0400
> >Subject: RE: Female Gamers
> 
> [...]
> >Back then I had only one other experience with GMs, and that was with a
> >fellow who thought that it was standard procedure -- nay, a requisite -- that
> >all female PCs be raped at least once per game. 

This is crap. In my games, only a truly brutal and twisted NPC would commit rape as an 
"on-stage" event, and then, I'd give the victim a chance to fight back. I've _never_ had 
a NPC villain gratituously rape a PC. OTOH, putting a rape in a character 
background -- as I did with Gwen, my favorite T4 NPC -- is a good character-building 
device and it gives her a good reason to avoid romantic situations. 

<<deletia>>
> 
> Weird. I had an almost identical experience the one time I thought I'd
> try to play a woman character. In the campaign I was in, my character
> didn't have a day go by without some evil NPC attempt to rape her. What
> compounded my problem was that she was the first character in this
> campaign that I had designed not to be a fighting machine.

Sounds like Gwen, all right. She's the first non-grunt Trav character I've ever enjoyed 
playing. 
> That'll teach
> me to try to expand my role playing repertoire! I haven't tried to play a
> female character since. (Aliens yes, women no. 8^)

I'm weak on playing aliens. In my RC game, I ran a number of Ithklur and a few Hivers, 
and I had a hard time individualizing them. I have an all-human party in my current T4 
game; I'm going to toss a Vargr corsair into the game just to give me practice (and to 
add variety to the Despot of Ardis' pirate fleet . . . )
> 
> ("Hey man, if you didn't want me to play a woman, you could have just
> asked me not to!")
> 
> My next character was a serial killer who preyed on rapists.

I have a great real-life female friend upon whom to model a female character who has 
been abused: my friend was abused sometime in her past (I've never pressed her for 
details). She is not murderous, but she expresses a fascination for guns, explosives, 
knives and other weapons that can only be described as prodigal. Further, she has a 
tremendous willingness to use such weapons, for-real. Nice to have a female friend who 
knows a double-tap from a Weaver stance ;)

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:42:41 -0700
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Question: (was: A sudden urge)

Darryl Adams wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:
> 
> > Boyd Schneider wrote:
> > >
> > > The Phoenix cleverly quipped:
> > >
> > > >Who needs all these different answers? I know the only answer anyone
> > > >could possibly need.  42.
> > >
> > > Okay, kewl-guy, if you know so much...   then, what's the question?
> > >
> > > hehehee                         ---Boyd
> >
> > The question is: What is the airspeed of a laden swallow?
> >
> Is that with or without Virus infested rocks?
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------<

Only of the swallow is a Cymballine swallow . . . or you do your swallow-hunting with a 
Hypervelocity Traveller Canon ;)

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com
>



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:43:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance...

Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
> 
> > If that's what they mean when they say it is weird to play RPGs, then I'm
> > happy to be weird.
> >
> >
> > -Joe
> 
> My usual response to being called weired is "Thank You!"

Mine too, Suz. Mine, too.

- --stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:48:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon & The marches

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> Perhaps the intial push towards the marches was a desire to add Vland to the
> new Imperium.  Since Cleon claimed legitimacy from both prior Imperia,
> having Vland under his wing would add weight to his claim.

Given that Sol is one LONG way away . . . this makes sense.
> 
> The inertia of this drive would probably carry on to clearing Corridor and
> the settlement of Deneb.  Wars are good for the economy, and the
> Vlanni/Vargr Pacification campaigns would keep the money flowing for decades.

This is logical . . .
> 
> As a M:0 adventure hook, have the PCs find an ancient reference to a vast
> empire of humans, somewhere "beyond Vland", who matain a utopia through the
> use of magical powers.  Someone might want to outfit an expedition to find
> this near-mythical people...

Three words: Expedition to Zhodane.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:09:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Rich said:
>  (I can't keep saying you get kewler, peepuls will start tu wunder about me)

<eg>

> 
> >Boyd Schneider wrote:
> >> I would suggest that the same thing is true with Christians.  Many of us
> have
> >> to live not only with living out our lives in the best way possible, but
> also
> >> the bad reputation of those who have much zeal with little wisdom.
> 
> You mean like how most NeoPagans have to live with the odium of the bad
> reputation of various darkside "satanic" groups while living their lives in
> the best way possible? :)
> 
> I guess, none of my pagan friends ever seem to mention any persecution
> experiences.  Although I have heard about it in a general way -- but the same
> is true for my Jewish and Christian friends.  I guess no matter what people
> say, this country is still pretty tolerant.  How about your own experience?

Well, when the sacred text of the dominant local religion says "suffer not a witch to 
live," and you _are_ a Witch, and associate with other Witches, and representitives of 
the dominant local religion hold frequent "seminars" to denounce you and yours (the 
latest seminar -- "Cult Classics" -- just in time for Samhain), you simply can't be too 
careful. In my community, people who are "different" -- gays, bohemians, the homeless 
and the occasional Pagan -- are targeted for physical assault, usually by teens. I 
remember talking to one young Christian of 15 who told me he wanted nothing more than to 
"stomp a f%gg&t." Chilling. I wonder what he'd do to a real-live Witch. The local Media 
run their annual Samhain scare-stories . . . .

Maybe I'm paranoid . . . but I'd rather be a live paranoid than reckless and dead.

> 
> >Tri-Tac is the company behind "The Morrow Project" -- a GREAT post-
> Oh, I had that game (gee I wonder what happened to it?)  never played it but I
> remember how fun it was to take a map of North Texas and mark out the
> locations where the nukes hit and where the bunkers were located...
> 
> >holacaust RPG that has a LOT of nasty mutated beasties that would fit into
> >Trav. They're in Michigan,
> 
> Ooh, thanks for the warning, I mean, I wasn't planning to go to Michigan, but
> since there are nasty muties there, I'll be sure to stay away!   :-)>

Oops . . . even we TMLers make typoes. Let's cut IG a break ;)

> 
> >ASK ME ABOUT MY "WIERD IS WONDERFUL" BUTTON
> Okay, say Rich...    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   ?

Well, it's purple, about 40mm in diameter, has the words 'Wierd is Wonderful' in white 
over a half-tone penticle . . . . :)


- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:17:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> <<deletia>>
> 
> If you want something resembling a current religion, I daresay that the
> Church of Bob folks would find it *funny* to have their religion used
> that way. Or use something like the Church of Elvis.

THAT does it! After all this GREAT off-topic religious discussion, I'm going to enact 
the Ritual of Horse-Slaying By Blunt Trauma to return us to the Realm of Topicality.

<<much chanting and whinnying as a flea-bitten nag is sacrificed to the Topicality 
Ghods with baseball bats>>

I'm going to have an Unexplored planet in my M0 T4 game turn out to a refuge for all 
those oppressed Discordians, SubGenii, Elvites, and Reformed Church of Barney The 
Dinosaur (for Ithklur) out there . . . 

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:28:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Cmdr Hold'Em 's comments

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> >I am sick of all game companies having ubiquitous errors, and I am sick of
> people
> >justifying it
> 
> Ever published anything substantial under a deadline?  I've _never_ seen
> anything published without errors, game company or no, and I've been in the
> publishing business since GDW was founded.  I've never seen a single student
> paper submitted without errors, either, even when months were available for
> writing it.  To be honest, I've seen damn few 1-page memos without at least
> one error.

I remember an article where a game publisher said that he expects to see at least one 
typo on his tombstone . . . and I well-remember a goof I made in one of my Renagade 
Legion articles in _Challenge_. I referred to the RL supplement "The 2nd ACR" as "The 
11th ACR." Hey, I would have liked to see the Black Horse Cav fight TOG . . . but *I* 
aka Author-Boy, made the mistake. Still galls me to no end that such a thing got past 
me. 

- --Rich "tyop hell" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:58:47 -0700
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 10/07/96 at 11:17 AM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:
> 
> >> Yup. I play RPGs gets the "Oh, do you dress up in funny costumes" respons
> >> (and a funny look) 9 times out of 10. "I teach karate" tends to get much
> >> more respect...
> 
> >Problem is, I dress up in funny costumes, too. I'm in the SCA . . . and
> >you can't  believe the funny looks _that_ got when I used to tell people
> >about the Society for  Creative Anachronism. They think the initials stand
> >for "Satan's Church in America."
> 
> Geeze Louise, Rich!

Well, I'm just _very careful_. Maybe my local area is a net loser in the racial brain 
cell distribution sweepstakes. If things don't get any better (and with **the 
Millenium** coming, I'm not very positive), I'm leaving for a More Tolerant area.
> 
> I live in the "armpit of the American South", the "heart of the Bible
> belt", and we aren't that bad!  <g> 

The Gulf Coast is an armpit? I thought it was Arkansas . . . ;)

> There's an SCA chapter/fiefdom in
> Pensacola, several comics and game stores, roleplaying is spotty, but all
> over the place, and we co-exist with the book/barbie/beatles burning
> Churches pretty well.

Pensacola is a college town and hosts a military base. Lodi isn't a college town nor is 
there a substantial military presence -- closest facility is Travis AFB in Fairfield 
with the shutdowns of McClellan, Mather, and the Sacramento Army Depot.

> 
> We do have our problems, though.  There is the continuing problem of
> ritualistic cat killings, for instance, Satanic Rituals are hinted at..the
> pentagons on the walls of buildings don't help either. 

Pentagrams? Cat killings? Ugh! Responsible pagans can work with the police; the violence 
 smears them badly.


> There haven't been
> any church burnings lately, and the local statues of ML King and RE Lee
> have been unmolested for several months now. The arson, explosions, and
> murders at the abortion clinics seem to have died down, but that seems to
> be seasonal..spring madness.

Hmmm . . . there are virtually _no_ African Americans here (but a substantial number in 
nearby Stockton) and thus no church burnings. Abortion violence? No clinic here, and the 
cops cover the one in Stockton like a blanket. Protests? I've seen several Sunday 
sign-waving rallys along the main drag. The minority community here is mostly Latino 
with a mix of Indians, Pakistanis and Sikhs.

Most of the bigotry I've experienced directly is the tacit kind that happens when a 
group of white males (I'm one) gather, and several of them start spouting off about 
immigration or some other hot button topic. Sooner or later, the issue of race comes up 
and the bigotry comes out. I've experienced this directly, and I've overheard similar 
behavior in public gathering places.

Some of what I hear is downright scary -- hunt down and deport 'em all, kill 'em if they 
resist . . . and I have to wonder what they'd do to a person when their religion gives 
them a tacit go-ahead. Given what medieval Crusaders did to Moslems and Jews, I have to 
err on the side of caution.

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #533
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 534

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Update: Odds & Ends Auction.
         2. Re: I am going to give it a go...
         3. Re: Jokes
         4. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         5. Re: My hobbies...
         6. Re: social-acceptance
         7. Re: Jump space assumption
         8. Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (fwd)
         9. Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
        10. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump 
        11. Re:(assorted)
        12. Re: Perfect Task System
        13. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
        14. A Brave New World...
        15. More Traveller 1965
        16. The strange thing...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Update: Odds & Ends Auction.

Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
- - $10   34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
- - $10   34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
- - $10   34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu

The Flaming Eye
- - $10   macek @erols.com

Traveller Adventure
- - $5    tiger@datasync.com

Alien Module #8: Darrians
- - $10   macek@erols.com

Challenge Magazine #25
- - $5    lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca

Alien Realms
- - $10   tc@library.solent.ac.uk

Traveller Chronicle Magazine:

#4
- - $3    tc@library.solent.ac.uk

#5
- - $3    tc@library.solent.ac.uk

#6
- - $3    tc@library.solent.ac.uk

#7
- - $3    tc@library.solent.ac.uk

#8
- - $3    tc@library.solent.ac.uk

#9
- - $1    scharlto@rtd.com

2300AD - S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans
- - $5    lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca

Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"
- - $2    douglas@point.com

Laserburn Sci. Fi. Combat Rules
Tabletop Games

New Additions:

White Dwarf Magazine #13 - "Suggested additions to Traveller, Part 1"
(Fair condition - some cover wear)

White Dwarf Magazine #16 - "Suggested  additions to Traveller, Part 4"
(Excellent condition)

White Dwarf Magazine #17 - "Sable Rose Affair" (Trav. adv.)
(Good condition)

White Dwarf Magazine #28 - "On Target" (Rules addition), "Sorry" (Trav. adv.)
(Good condition - some cover wear)

Voyages SF Magazine #11 
(Mint condition)

Voyages SF Magazine #13 - "Exercise" (Trav. fiction)
(Mint condition)        - "Katlin C. Buchannon" (Trav. starship/deckplans)                      
                        - "Sanity In Space" (Rules addition)

Different Worlds Magazine #23 - "Terraforming, Part 2" (Rules addition)

Gameplay Magazine #5
(Good condition - some cover wear)

Gameplay Magazine #7
(Good condition - some cover wear)

2300AD - Kafer Dawn
GDW

Tales of the Concordat #2: "Voyage of the Planetslayer"
Jefferson Swycaffer

Tales of the Concordat #3: "Revolt and Rebirth"
Jefferson Swycaffer

Planet in Peril
O'Neill & Mohan

Sniper! - Special forces
SPI

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:05:57 -0700
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> <<snip snip snip snip>> 

>
> Give me a few well made adventures, and I'll string them together, change
> a few names and organization, and edit them to my liking to make a
> dynamite campaign.
> 
> It's like I'm the head writer at a successful TV show.  It is hard, and
> unecessary, for me to write the whole season by myself, so, I send all of
> the junior writers home for the weekend to come up with some episodes.
> Monday morning, we're stringing them all together to fit in sink with the
> goals for the show.
> 
> When I'm GMing, the published adventures are my junior writers.
> 
> I'm interested...how many of you out there prefer the type of
> adventure Trent and I like and how many like the vague ones?

I _like_ to improvise. In my TNE game, I ran a lot of _Challenge_ scenarios as well as 
many of those from _Smash and Grab_. The more vague the scenario, the more fun I had 
tossing unprogrammed encounters at the party or sticking in a variety of nasty surprises 
("I _know_ the scenario says those TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this platoon has Tech-8 
gear. Now shut up while I roll where that HEAP RAM grenade hit you . . .). In my T4 
game, I basically improvised the Despot of Ardis. I started with the UPP for Ardis, made 
the gov type a charismatic dictator, with the CD a former Sylean naval officer with a 
hate-on for Cleon. I further presume that NOBODY has the resources yet to build large 
starships as of Year 0. The yards can handle ships the size of the designs listed in T4, 
and only a few that are larger than the standard designs. A tech 12 _Midi Ashguum_ is 
the equivalent of a battleship; the 400-ton patrol cruiser is the common jump-capable 
combatant; like a WW2 Fletcher-class tin can, the PCs also escorts the pride of the 
Imperial fleet: 3000-ton carriers armed with fighters. This is consistant with what T4 
says about the fighter: "The fighter is the Imperium's greatest advantage against other 
races."

The Ardin's (a resident of Ardis is an Ardin) advantage is a ruthlessly centralized 
economy where slackers are shot. Their yard production rates are higher, but due to a 
smaller pop base, they fly fewer fighters. Ardis also has a pirate's haven tradition 
dating back to the Vilini Imperium, the Port Royale of the entire sector

When I see larger vessels in _Starships_, I'll add them to the Imperial or the Ardin 
inventory.



Improvising like mad,
Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:32:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Jokes

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 10/07/96 at 05:25 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:
> 
> >Like the joke in the movie Rob Roy: "Why do Luthrens never (make love)
> >standing up? They  think that doing that leads to _dancing_.
> 
> Good one! <g>
> 
> Ok, why must you always take *2* Baptists fishing with you?  If you only
> take one he'll drink all your beer. <Ta Dump>

GREAT one, Eris! 

Hmmm . . . I wonder what 3dI jokes of this nature would be like . . . .

- --Rich 
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:50:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero wrote:
> Tri-Tac is the company behind "The Morrow Project" -- a GREAT post-holacaust RPG
> that has a LOT of nasty mutated beasties that would fit into Trav. They're in Michigan,
> and they even have a Web page (check out www.io.com/sjgames for a big honking list
> of game company links).
> 
> Try searching for Richard Tucholka, he is the writer

Thanks, CDR.

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:04:12 -0700
Subject: Re: My hobbies...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, that "Satan's Church of America" (actually *Satannic*) bit
> comes from a police officer who is a fanatic about witches, satanism,
> etc, and goes around "teaching" police departments "how to deal with
> cults".

Right. With his (expensive) help, they'll stomp 'em out. Inquisitor Numero Uno.

> 
> An awful lot of the members of the SCA think that the Board of
> Directors is wrong to be just ignoring the guy and telling us to avoid
> anything that might even *look* religious. 

Welcome to the Heraldic Pentacle debate . . . but THIS IS OFF TOPIC ;)

> We think we'd be better off
> suing him for everything he's got and making an example of him.

Well, you know how the BoD simply _hates_ contraversey  . . . ;)

- --Rich
srormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:21:19 -0700
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 10/07/96 at 12:27 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:
> 
> >...is as intolerant as the most red-necked regions of the storied
> >American South, and it is getting worse. Relocation IS in my future . . .
> 
> Most of the stories about the south are just that...stories!  We
> southerners start most of them, and enjoy cultivating our reputation with
> outsiders.  It's our perverse sense of humor...we fousted Jeff Foxworthy on
> ya'll after all.  <g>

Yup, the joke's on us, all right . . . .

Hey, why not steal Foxworthy's best bit for the interests of Da List:

		YOU MIGHT BE A TRAVELLER PLAYER OR REF

If you hoard dice with little suns on them, YOU MIGHT JUST BE A TRAVELLER PLAYER OR REF

If you think Beowulf was just a Free Trader, . . . .

If you dance the "Hoky-Poky" and think "What did I just say in Hiver?" . . . .

If you know that "deck plans" never include a hot tub . . . .

If you know understand the difference between Rush Limbaugh and a Gas Giant . . . .

If you travel internationally and look up your destination's government code . . . .

If you travel interstate and look up the local law level . . . .

> 
> If you want to relocate, come on down.  After you've been here 30 or 40
> years you might be allowed to be a Southerner too.  <g>

Do I have to take courses and pass a test? If so -- hell no! :) After looking at what's 
happened to my sister since she moved to Arkansas, I think not!


Rich Ostorero
stuck in Lodi -- again!
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:51:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Jump space assumption

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>      If your players get bored during that week in jump-space, maybe you
> should consider speeding up the in-game clock and say "time passes".  I
> don't see what the real problem is...

I give my players about three to five minutes "on-stage" time to describe what the PCs 
are doing. If players don't want to roleplay a few hands of cards (use that Gambling 
skill . . . or LEARN it) or talking to that attractive person or alien from Steteroom 3, 
then I don't give out helpful rumors or allow the PCs to make useful friends that might 
just help out down the road.

What I **do not** want to hear is that a character spent the entire week "working out 
with my brawling skill/shooting my laser in the indoor tange/doing anything that takes 
an inordinate amount of dedication." You're spending a week with OTHER PEOPLE -- deal 
with 'em or suffer the rep of someone who is unsocialbe and a possible liability to the 
team groundside.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
**Glad to see the Religion thread GONE**


------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:54:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (fwd)

The Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em <marz@hotstar.net> wrote:

> > Others are:
> > 
> > AFAIK - As Far As I Know.
> > FYI   - For Your Information.
> > FNG   - F*cking New Guy/Gal.
> > FWIW  - For What It's Worth.
> > OTOH  - On The Other Hand.
> > TIA   - Thanks In Advance.
> > TTFN  - Ta Ta For Now.
> > WRT   - With Regard To.
> > YMMV  - Your Mileage May Vary.
> 
> ACRONYM--Already Commented Remark-Or not your making

Actually, according to the Official Emergency Medical Service Acronym
List (tm), it stands for:

  A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. - A Contrived Reduction Of Nouns, Yielding Mnemonics.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous
    and give the wrong answers.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 19:51:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> 
> This should have probably been sent straight to Leonard.  

Yes, I agree.  I've made a mistake, and I have publicly apologized for it.  It won't 
happen again.

> I'd just like to say that I have agreed with or found interesting most of his posts.

I, too, have found all of Leonard's posts to be interesting, and I have agreed with a 
lot of them myself.  As a matter of fact, I have his post on fixing the task system 
printed out for use in finding a system I like.  

> These theories don't need to be defended and can't be attacked,
> except where they are internally inconsistent or conflict with our
> current knowledge.

I can't agree with you here.  This is what this mail list is all about.  Otherwise, 
someone would write a post, everyone would agree, and that would be that.

I also don't agree with the basis of what you are saying.  I don't buy that the 
no-matter-what jump system should be believed just because.  I want to see some support 
for the idea.

I've gotten all types of answers to my question.  You say that the cannon jumpspace 
system can't be attacked--it just needs to be accepted.  Leonard, among many things, 
said that the jumpspace system cannot be changed because no Pearl Harbor attacks could 
be allowed.  Others have said that the system cannot be changed because it would change 
the communication and economic situation unique to Traveller (which it would not).

All of these answers do not address the question--why does it take a week in jump space 
no matter what jump you are making.  

There has been no answer to this until...

I read Glenn's post.  He actually addressed the question.  Basically, he said that it is 
a deficite in technical knowledge that causes the one-week system.  The hull grid gets 
so hot that, by current standards, the fastest that they can be cooled down is in one 
week.  In other words, we could come out of jump space quicker if we could figure out a 
way to use better materials and technology.

This explains long time misjumps (we're having a problem cooling the grid!).  This 
explains my system (we've found a new, better material for the grid that will actually 
cool faster!).  And this supports cannon (we can't cool the damn thing down any faster 
than one week).  IG could even use this in future supplements if they wanted to shake 
the universe by introducing new technology with "faster" jump drives.

Believe it or not, I actually want to support cannon.  The jump space thing has always 
bugged me since I first picked the game up.  And I gotta tell ya, I was a staunch 
defender of my system, but Glenn has made a great point.  

I have to conceed, and I'm changing my system back to cannon after 14 years.

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:32:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump 

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> That Computer Guy wrote:
> > To be honest, I would probably say that jump should be a combination of
> > grid and fuel for coolant.  I like the idea that the hull is doing the
> > energizing and entering of j-space, but I am also enamored with the idea
> > that the j-drive and engineer actually have something to do once in
> > jump.
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> I always have something for the engineer to do, but I like this all-important task as
> well.  I think Glenn's comments were stupendous.
> 
> FYI, if you need more for your engineers to do, there is something in TNE that I use as
> a guide.  Each TNE ship has a listed amount of weekly hours required to keep up
> maintenance.  For example, the subsidized merchant requires 180 hrs.  On our ship (in my
> campaign), the chief engineer is in charge of the maintenance crew.  We've got four of
> the crew members on this maintenance detail--each putting in about 45 hrs a week.
> 
> Our pilot, for instance, has virutally nothing to do in jump space, but he is also our
> chief mechanic.  His job in jump space is to fix, troubleshoot, and maintain all of the
> mechanical devices aboard ship.  He puts in 8-10 hrs a day, while in jump space, doing
> these types of tasks.
> 
> Another thing that this is useful for is to calculate the number of free time a
> character has aboard ship.  A player might say, "I want to start studing Navigation so
> that my character can get a skill in it.  Let's see, that's one and two and six weeks
> that we've been in jumpspace over the last couple of months.  That should be six weeks
> worth of time that my character has had to study."
> 
> Not so, I say.  Your character was indeed in jump space, but you are also the
> pilot/chief mechanic.  You spend 45 hrs a week, while in jump space, taking care of all
> things mechanical.  You need to sleep 5 to 8 hrs a day as well, so, if you used all of
> your free time (which is highly unlikely--people need recreation time is a requirement
> in my book) studying, you've only racked up 36 hrs in that six weeks actually studying
> navigation.

What follows is one ref's answer -- MINE!

Uncle Rich's Guide to Life In J-space:


CREW:

Crew-beings have two major responsibilities:

	1. Watch-standing
	2. Maintenance

Watches: Every crewbeing stands watches and/or is "on-call" during jump. The 
Captain/Chief pilot and Engineer fall into the latter category.
Every ship has at least two stations that must be manned in J-space -- the bridge and 
main engineering. Long tradition and Imperial safety regs require that a sophont being 
be at the main engineering and pilot workstations during jump. Tradition -- this 
comes from the nautical tradition that the bridge is never left unmanned. Safety -- 
physically occupying the bridge is a security (anti-hijack) measure on traders as 
well as a flight-safety issue. Ships can drop out of jump prematurely; computer control 
of the jump field is a twitchy business  even at TL-14+.

Maintenance: Every crewbeing's life depends upon the proper functioning of the 
starship's drive, fuel, and lifesupport equipment. You cannot do enough maintenance on a 
piece of equipment if by doing so increases your chance of survival. 


On small ships like free traders/far traders, the steward is on-call to all passengers 
in the event of a medical emergancy and to all high passengers at all times. Stewards do 
not stand watches. Everyone else stands 6-12 hour watches and pulls 6 hrs of maintenance 
 per day. Small ships tend to have high crew fatigue . . . but blowing off stress is 
what startowns are for, right?

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:36:51 -0500
Subject: Re:(assorted)

Harold wrote:

<Snip>

>   At any rate, Roger Sanger bought the DGP name last year.  Roger planned to
>re-release the old DGP material and even talked about a CD-ROM product.
> Unfortunately, nothing came of it.  Later, he had some discussions with IG
>about the possibilities of producing some Traveller material, then decided to
>drop that in favor of developing some other projects (among them finishing
>development of the game _A.I._, which DGP had been working on prior to
>folding up).  The last post he made to the History of the Imperium Working
>Group (HIWG) mailing list was back in the early spring.  I haven't heard from
>him since.
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold
>
Roger has been going thru protracted negotiations with IG to no effect as to
the publication of the DGP and other Traveller stuff.  So far no real action
from IG to Roger Sanger.

His Email is rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
His Mailing List Called Alternate History is..... Damn where did that
address get to

Sinbad Sam
Sinbad@dfw.net
AI Virus Black Curtain Rod Holder


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:20:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Perfect Task System

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> asks...

>1)  How complex do we want this to be?

As simple and elegant as possible. Best case would be a single roll with
only two dice. Personally, I dislike the idea of rolling 3, 4, 5, even 6
dice just to determine task resolution. Half dice are undesirable as well.

>        A) How many tables should be involved?

As few as possible. Preferably none.

>        B) What sort of mathematical operations should be required?

Again, as few as possible, but some are always going to be necessary. Best
would be a system that allows players to predetermine the roll mods for
each of their skills. Worse is something that needs to be re-calculated for
every situation.

>2)  What sort of dice do we want to use?
>        A) Stick with D6's only?

Of course. Anything else should be shot with a canon. :)
Besides, I threw out all my old D&D stuff a decade ago. I wouldn't want to
have to buy another set of bloody polyhedrals!

>3)  What should be the "base" for the roll?
>        A) Characteristics
>        B) Some arbitrary number (i.e., 8+)
>        C) Skill Levels (or some multiple thereof)
>        D) Something else?

I think the base should be determined by the Difficulty level, then
modified by skills and (to a lesser extent) characteristics.

>5)  What sort of probability progression do we want from target number to 
>target number?
>6)  What sort of probability progression do we want from difficulty level 
>to difficulty level?

As regular as possible: the progressions in the T4 system seem rather
arbitrary and irregular, which makes it hard to for the ref to gauge the
Difficulty. For instance, for a PC with stat+skill of 9, there's only a
slight difference between "Staggering" and "Impossible".

It would seem difficult or even impossible to come up with a system which
succeeds in combining all of the above. But.... I think I might have an
idea for such a system. It's still embryonic thus far, but I think I can
get it to work. It will require a bit of mathematical fiddling to begin
with, but the rolls themselves will be very simple: a throw of two dice,
D6s only, no D3s, no charts or tables to consult (I hope), and a highly
regular probability progression by Difficulty and Skill. Stats will mean
less than Skills. 

Sound nice? Well, I can't guarantee anything. Will post more here when I've
either elimated the bugs or thrown up my hands at the problem.

More anon,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:48:21 -0700
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

Joe Walsh wrote:
> Here are some thoughts on over-all questions that we might want to answer
> before we get down to the nitty-gritty:
> 
> 1)  How complex do we want this to be?
>         A) How many tables should be involved?
>         B) What sort of mathematical operations should be required?

Keep to one table if at possible.  If math is required,
addition/subtraction would be simplest (depending on the formula).


> 2)  What sort of dice do we want to use?
>         A) Stick with D6's only?
>         B) Use 1/2 Dice?
>         C) Use D4's, D8's, D10's, D12's, and/or D20's?

I favor D100s or D20s.

> 3)  What should be the "base" for the roll?
>         A) Characteristics
>         B) Some arbitrary number (i.e., 8+)
>         C) Skill Levels (or some multiple thereof)
>         D) Something else?

Skill levels modified *somewhat* by characteristics.
 
> 4)  What should the basic modifiers to the target number be?
>         A) Characteristics
>         B) Skill Levels
>         C) Something else?

How about allowing a situation to modify the target number? For example,
a certain lock reduces an Intrusion roll by 5% (1 on D20) or a field of
slightly soft earth reduces Stealth by 10% (2 on a D20)? D100s allow the
most flexibility.
 
> 5)  What sort of probability progression do we want from target number to
> target number?

With the schema in #4, this is unnecessary.
 
> 6)  What sort of probability progression do we want from difficulty level
> to difficulty level?

Same answer as 5)

> Answers to the above, as well as additional questions, would be
> appreciated from anyone who wants to participate.

Although I expect most to fend off the above, I've run RuneQuest for a
number of years and the above system (a D100) works very well because of
its simplicity and flexibility. Of course, it's copyrighted which why I
also suggested a D20.

------------------------------

From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 20:57:08 -0400
Subject: A Brave New World...

..on that there information superhighway!

In addition to Digest #500, I never received Digest #512. Anyboyd have 
copies of either they can forward to me at FKiesche@concentric.net?

Tried FTP'ing, the directory that the "new" digests are in shows as empty 
(I was able to download things from other directories, go figure). Rob, 
you out there? Any chance that we can regain access? (Of course sending 
mail to "majordomo" for help just gets you canned messages, sigh...)

Bravely forging onwards...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)

------------------------------

From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 20:57:18 -0400
Subject: More Traveller 1965

Greetings All:

Here's a new resource for our previously discussed Traveller 1965 
scenarios. I'm in the process of reading Robert Zubrin's (co-written with 
Richard Wagner) The Case for Mars (Free Press, ISBN 0-684-82757-3, $25.00 
US). Zubrin describes a relatively "low cost" (when compared to some 
plans floated by NASA) process of getting to Mars that definately has a 
Von Braun/Bonestell/Ley flavor to me. 

I would also like to recommend Buzz Aldrin and John Barnes' Encounter 
With Tiber (Warner Aspect, ISBN 0-446-51854-9, $21.95 US). The story 
revolves around the discovery of traces of alien presences on Alpha 
Centauri, the Moon and Mars. The book alternates between the point of 
view of a historian on the first interstellar (STL) ship, the aliens (in 
the distant past) and a revived space program going to the Moon and then 
to Mars to recover alien artifacts. The revived space program proposes 
some fairly nifty items--such as a modified "Apollo II" command module 
ship to go to the Moon.

Both have some Traveller 1965 possibilities and are on my reading list 
for this project...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)


------------------------------

From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 20:57:13 -0400
Subject: The strange thing...

..about the Core Subsector "rewrite" is that I recall GDW being pretty 
strongly involved with things that DGP did--so it can't be a lack of 
knowledge that kept IG from using the previously offiical maps. I recall 
going to an Origins seminar on Traveller--a joint seminar given by GDW 
and DGP. Issue 8 of the Trav Digest had just come out shortly before, 
containing a Core subsector map. Issue 9, the first "large" sized digest 
was coming out soon--featuring Capital, maps of the palace and such. This 
was right before MegaTrav, the Rebellion and the like. Marc Miller was in 
the room and part of the talks...and spoke with much enthusiasm about 
what DGP was doing.

I could see redoing stats, as Tech Levels and Pop Levels might change 
from Mileu Zero to Classic Traveller times.  Even names and the like 
might change, but positions are stretching it. Of course, now that I've 
bought the game it's mine to do what I like with it, fear of being 
"Gregged" (or in this case "Marced") or no. I remember MAR Barke stating 
this in the first editon of The Empire of the Petal Throne--something 
along the lines of "You bought MY Tekumel, now it's time to make it YOUR 
Tekumel"...

Time to roll them bones and see how many wacky characters I can come up 
with...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.com)


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #534
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 10 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 535

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Public Apology to Leonard Erickson
         2. Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
         3. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         4. Re: All the Probabilities
         5. Authors sought
         6. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
         7. Frank Repzinski XVII
         8. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         9. Re: My religion
        10. Re: All the Probabilities
        11. Re: Ship mission/design question
        12. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        13. Re: Future Religions
        14. Re: Time Traveller
        15. Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply
        16. Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)
        17. Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
        18. Re: Hoppe, Skip, and Jump

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:55:47 PST
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Leonard Erickson

In mail you write:

> Leonard,
>
> I want to apologize to you if I came across too strong in the "Cannon
> Basher vs. Leonard Erickson" post.  I want to make it clear that I
> appreciate your comments--whether I agree with them or not.  I had no
> intention of changing the friendly nature of this mail list.

> I feel that I took a wrong turn in writing my message.  I don't want
> it to be seen as though I am criticizing you instead of your post.
> Once you hit the send key, it is written in stone, and you can't
> change it.

> Please forgive any misguided wordings.  My intentions were sincere.

I forgive you, but since my starships use the canon "one week,
regardless of jump length" I can send a courier to call off the attack
on your home system. 

Hope you like relativistic rocks, falling comets, and the other
nasties. (Even bought a second hand stellar flare inducer from the
Darrians. Only been used once.... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:36:22 PST
Subject: Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

In mail you write:

> So, Leonard, on a little witch hunt for those cannon bashers, are we?

I avoid hunting witches. They fight back. :-)

> You've attacked me and the DGP Starship Op Manual (conflictingly, I might 
> add), Eris' jump system, and the formula posited by Michael Koehne.

I didn't attack *you*, though that may have been implied by comments
about certain holes in your arguments.

And any "conflict" is a result of misunderstanding my position.

> The problem is that you are just playing devil's advocate with each of the 
> systems--attacking whatever is attackable--with no sense of a point or 
> position.

You only just figured out that I play devils advocate?

My "position" is that the rules need to be consistent, both with
themselves, and with the real world. And that the rules should describe
how things work, as in "you do this, this and this, and that happens"
rather than try to come up with explanations of why. Especially since
explanations of "why" are far more likely to get trashed as we learn
more about the universe. 

As an example, if the thruster plates were described as using magnetic
monopoles, and then monopoles were actually discovered and found to
have properties that make the explanation impossible, then the game
seems silly (just like a lot of old SF that seems silly for having
obsolete science). But if they are instead described in terms of
putting in so much energy for a given thrust, then all we can do is
list things that they *can't* be using. 

> Let me give you a little advice.  Next time you want to make an
> argument, don't just argue.  Keep in mind the point you are trying to
> make, and drive it home.

I did. You just didn't notice. :-)

> When you attack everything in sight, from different points of view,
> you blow your credibility.

I accept no responsibility for people who don't realize that the point
I'm arguing isn't the one they think I'm arguing.

> And, I didn't mean this in a bad way, so I hope you don't take it so.

Nah, I'll just consider the source. :-)

Seriously, any "digs" above are meant as friendly ribbing, not actual
attacks. But I *am* serious when I say that several of the failing you
point out are due to you making *incorrect* assumptions as to what my
point was.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:18:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> > Pseudo-scientific Explanation #2 (the better):
> >
> > Jump capable ships have a Zuchai crystal grid in the hull. This grid is
> > powered by the jump drive until it is "hot" enough to punch a "hole"
> > through normal space and allow the ship to enter jump space. (Ref: the
> > excellent DGP product Starship Operators Manual, I'm going by memory
> > here, so if I've got anything wrong, bear with me.)
> >
> > The zuchai crystal grid surrounding the ship requires about a week to
> > "cool down" in order for the ship to exit jumpspace. 

<Much snipping of details and well-deserved kudos>

Not to put a damper on the ole nuke warhead with pithy details but the
grid is made of lanthanum. The zuchai crystals are used as an energy
sink to contain the initial charge used to "boost" the tumble into
Jumpspace. I consider this, however, to be absolutely irrelevant to the
theory stated above. After all, at what rate does lanthanum radiate heat
in Jumpspace?

However, I thought a jump drive was nothing more than a fusion reactor
which ran constantly while in Jumpspace to maintain the jump field. Is
this documented anyway (I can't recall)? If not, you have another
convert.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:29:49 -0500
Subject: Re: All the Probabilities

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:21:31 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: All the Probabilities
>
>Here's a couple of tables I worked up for my own use.  I thought I'd post 
>'em in case some folks haven't already seen this information.

OOPS!!!  Found a couple of Boo-Boo's, Joe.  Here they are. :)

The first table was fine with the exception of the D4 column.  Here is
your's with the corrections.  (Better check what I am saying, I may be wrong. :)

>           4       Corrected
>      2 0.0000      0.0000 
>      3 0.0000      0.0000
>      4 0.0772      0.0772
>      5 0.3086      0.3086
>      6 0.7716      0.7716
>      7 1.5432      1.5432
>      8 2.7006      2.7006
>      9 4.3210      4.3210
>     10 6.1728      6.1728
>     11 8.0247      8.0247
>     12 9.6451      9.6451
>     13 10.802      10.802
>     14 10.802      11.27?  I only did the table to two decimals. :)
>     15 9.8765      10.802
>     16 8.2562      9.6451  Changed this one
>     17 6.1728      8.0247  Changed this one
>     18 3.8580      6.1728
>     19 2.1605      4.3210  Changed this one
>     20 1.0031      2.7006  Changed this one
>     21 0.3086      1.5432  Changed this one
>     22 0.0000      0.7716  Changed this one
>     23 0.0000      0.3086
>     24 0.0000      0.0772  Changed this one

The second table was fine, except for the fact that on 2.5, 3, 3.5, and 4 D
rolls, the low to Hit numbers that are marked with 0.00 should actually be
the same as the lowest number because of the automatic success rule.  That
is, If my to hit number is a 3, and I am rolling 4D6, I will succeed if I
roll a 4 (ie four ones) even though it is over the to hit number.  Here is
the old and the new section...

OLD
>           4      3.5        3      2.5        2      1.5
>     2-   0.00     0.00     0.00     0.00     2.78     5.56
>     3-   0.00     0.00     0.46     0.93     8.33    16.67
>     4-   0.08     0.15     1.85     3.70    16.67    33.33

NEW
>           4      3.5        3      2.5        2      1.5
>     2-   0.08     0.15     0.46     0.93     2.78     5.56
>     3-   0.08     0.15     0.46     0.93     8.33    16.67
>     4-   0.08     0.15     1.85     3.70    16.67    33.33


I think that is all.  If I'm in error somewhere, someone please let me know.
BTW, anyone who wants a Microsoft Excell Spreadsheet with the second table
from above with .5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 5, and 6 Die percentages
entered in to the nearest hundreth, I should have it done tomorrow.  Let me
know.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:33:33 -0400
Subject: Authors sought

  Greetings list lurkers. I wanted to drop a quick note to let you all know
that we are working on several product lines that may be of interest to you.
More to the point, we are actively seeking authors for books to be published
in these lines. The lines are listed below.

  We have an agreement with Imperium Games to produce licensed Traveller 4th
Edition products. We are looking for authors, primarily for adventure
anthologies (each adventure being 8,000-10,000 words). We are planning to
release the first of our T4 books next spring to be followed by additional
books through the year.

  We also publish a line of adventure books for use with the Hero System,
called Heroic Adventures. Each volume consists of several adventures for a
specific genre (HA1 was for Champions, HA2 for Dark Champions, HA3 will be
for Fantasy Hero, etc.). Adventures should be 8,000 to 10,000 words, and we
are looking for additional Champions and Dark Champions adventures.

  Lastly, we are working on a new roleplaying game set in feudal Japan,
called Sengoku: Chambara Roleplaying in Feudal Japan. Sengoku will use the
new Fuzion game system (by Hero Games and R. Talsorian), expanded with a
number of genre-specific rules. We have a number of supplements planned which
are, as of yet, not assigned an author. If you have an interest in the genre,
drop us a line.

  Propsective authors should download our current submission guidelines from
our web page at http://members.aol.com/goldrushg/index.htm.

  Thanks for your time.

  Mark Arsenault
  Gold Rush Games

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:33:55 -0700
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> 
> Well, I'll admit that I have not been following this thread
> very carefully, because I am happy enough with the system we
> use in our game, and so wasn't shopping for another.  But since
> there are shoppers on the list, I'll desribe our system and run
> the risk of saying something redundant or non-sequitur.  I think
> ours is a pretty slick system.
> 
> It involves few, if any tables.  All tasks are resolved by rolling
> percentile dice against a percentile figure.  This figure may be
> an attribute or a skill (or other things, if the GM throws them
> at you) adjusted up or down if circumstances make the task easier
> or harder than "normal" according to the GM.

Ah ha! Another D100 fan. Happen to have a RuneQuest background there,
Earl?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:37:17 -0700
Subject: Frank Repzinski XVII

Come on, folks! You know Frank. The last owner of the rights to Vlasic
Pickles. (duh)

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:56:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996,  "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> mentioned:

>e. Merchant Exploration Cruiser

Can we all say "Leviathan"?  I'm waiting for Starships to arrive at my FLGS
to do a TL-12 version of the old girl, but this is just the type of ship
that would be favored for those long exploratory trade missions.

The IISS would probably order a few to serve as Exploration Crusiers, since
you can stock the cargo bay with all the survey equpment you need.  I could
even see one or two Levi's being used as mobile Scout command/repair ships;
serving the Type S ships doing the local area and following up on
interesting finds.

 
+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:56:06 -0700
Subject: Re: My religion

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, "Writer formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em"
<marz@hotstar.net> said:

>Susan M. Shock wrote:
>> Well, I myself am a Frisbeterian. I beleive that when you die, your soul
>> goes up on the roof and you can't get it down!

>I am an Dyslexic Agnostic, I doubt there is a Dog

Myself, I'm a Buddhist.  You'll be one too.  Someday, some life.  We're
patient.  



+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:02:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: All the Probabilities

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> OOPS!!!  Found a couple of Boo-Boo's, Joe.  Here they are. :)

"I was worried that was gonna happen." 
  - Joe Walsh, "The Worry Song" from the album, "You Bought It - You Name It"

:)


> The first table was fine with the exception of the D4 column.  Here is
> your's with the corrections.  (Better check what I am saying, I may be wrong. :)

Me?  Check YOU?  Nah.


> The second table was fine, except for the fact that on 2.5, 3, 3.5, and 4 D
> rolls, the low to Hit numbers that are marked with 0.00 should actually be
> the same as the lowest number because of the automatic success rule.  That

D'oh!  (Sound of banging head on desk)

I know how this one happened (I screwed up, and didn't even consider 
that), but how the D4 column errors happened is a mystery to me.  All 
four columns were generated using the same (home-brewed) program.  If 
one column was in error, they should all have been.  Maybe something 
happened in the translation from program output to spreadsheet.  

Thanks for catching those errors.
(sigh)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:17:16 PST
Subject: Re: Ship mission/design question

In mail you write:

>         In preparing a longish T4 Milieu 0 world/adventure supplement, I 
> came up with a mission problem designing one of the ships.
>
>         How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
> low passage) one way, and bulk materials back? (It's an end of the line type
> world, so you cant just go on with each type of ship to a further
> destination)
>
>         I thought about using modularized containers, but that means you're 
> deadheading one or the other type of container each trip. As I 
> understand it, low berths take up a fair amount of room, and so can't 
> just be 'folded up' and out of the way when the bulk stuff is loaded.

To put it bluntly, you design seperate ships. Look at the real world.
Railroads and trucking concerns *do* have to deal with deadheading
trailers or railroad cars, be they livestock carriers or bulk carriers.

Look at ships. Bulk carriers are specialized. Oil, grain, LNG, sulfur,
and automobiles all have *specialized* ships which only carry cargo in
*one* direction, and come back empty. More generalized "bulk" carriers
can usually find *something* to load for the return trip.

Livestock carriers (a rather unusual ship type!) are almost certain be
running empty on the trip back. But low berths for animals may not be
individualized, it depends on details of how low berths work which I've
never seen put down. Assuming that a low berth amounts to pumping the
body fill of special chemicals, then maintaining it at a low but
controlled temperature, then for the animals, you just treat the
animals, stuff them in a hold, and and lower the temp. You'll need
better than usual environmental controls controls for the hold, and
some space to process the animals quickly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:46:17 PST
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

In mail you write:

> I remember talking to one young Christian of 15 who told me he wanted
> nothing more than to "stomp a f%gg&t."

Some local biker types I know tell a story about this idiot standing
near them and making some similar comments about gays. At which point
one of them says to him "Wanna start with us, het-boy?". Y'see their
entire bike club is gay... :-)

Stereotypes can get you into a *world* of trouble.

> Maybe I'm paranoid . . . but I'd rather be a live paranoid than
> reckless and dead.

I know the feeling. This will be the first election in almost a decade
where we don't have a local group trying to pass laws that would
effectively make me an "unperson". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:57:22 PST
Subject: Re: Future Religions

In mail you write:

> I've noticed that some of the early Christian 'heresies' make a lot of sense
> - in sense that they are internally consistent. Add in fusions with other
> religious philosophies, and you have scope for new sects that are
> 'Christian', but unlike the ones common today.
>
> A friend has being doing the same with Judaism.  (Being Jewish, he has the
> background for this.)  This will also appear as part of the same document.

Ask your friend what he intends to do about differing day lengths
resulting in the Sabbath being on different *days* for different
planets. 

Oh well, at least he doesn't have to worry about which direction Mecca
is. :-)
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:36:47 PST
Subject: Re: Time Traveller

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>  "Now consider the "fun" with *real* time travel.
>   ...
>  "You, of course, want no part of this, as you rem,ember what happened to
>   the future you. But all your efforts *will* be in vain. Because the
>   wave function only has one possible outcome. You go back, and die. All
>   other "possibilities" have a probability of *zero*, while anything that
>   gets you into the machine has a high probability."
>
> Just as our in-house name for paradox-prevention is "timelock," our 
> name for this kind of thing is "fating."  Typically, our PCs *hate* to 
> learn about their personal futures, because even if they don't learn 
> anything unpleasant, you get this nasty constricted feeling about upcoming
> events.  Besides, if someone *starts* to tell you the future, you never 
> know how it's going to turn out until it's too late.

Of course, he *could* be lying. 

BTW, one of the *classic* stories about this is part of the little
known "Change War" series by Fritz Leiber. The title is "Try and Change
the Past". Our hero goes to a *lot* of trouble to prevent a man from
getting a bullet fired thru his head (understandably, as the man *is*
our hero). He does so only to watch a bullet sized meteor hit....

> There is a possible way around this.  Sometimes.  If you're lucky and 
> industrious.  I call it "causal substitution."  The way you'd do it 
> in the example given is to heartlessly commision a clone, give him the 
> proper education, and throw him to the time-travel researchers, who 
> mistake him for you.  In fact *he* mistakes himself for you, and thus 
> proclaims himself as you when you meet, or met.  Then he dies in your 
> place.  Or rather, it was always him who died, rather than you.
>
> Not very moral, in this case.  Maybe there's a better dodge.  Perhaps 
> you could go time-traveling yourself and bribe the coroners to give 
> false testimony about your dead "self's" DNA, having thoughtfully bought 
> a life-like replica robot, suitably programmed, sent back in your place, 
> etc.
>
> The nub is that the events that happened, happened.  You can just try 
> to embroider the context of the events to make them mean something else.
> It's very tricky and usually doesn't work.  But it illustrates the 
> adventure possibilities of immutable-time-travel.

The basic principle behind all of this is that your freedom of action
is inversely proportional to your knowledge (or directly proportional
to your ignorance, if you want to look at it that way).

The difference between "what you know" and "what you think you know"
becomes critical. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:52:09 PST
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > 7. The many human races, whether descended from *Homo Erectus*, *Homo
>> > Habilis* or early *Homo Sapiens* would still be quite close
>> > genetically even after 200k years. The question is whether they would
>> > have drifted far enough to cease being *interfertile* and able to
>> > produce *fertile offspring* (the definition of a species!).
>> 
>> Please note that there is strong evidence that humans, chimps, and
>> gorillas are interfertile, though no one is about the try the
>> experiment, even in vitro.
>
> Where did you read that?
> My sources (am trying to find names and titles) say even though we
> are 99.5%+ genetically identical there is no possible way to be
> interfertile

Numerous articles on the subject say that a human chimp cross would
probably be viable. Human gorilla isn't likely, but might work. The
crosses would likely be "mules", but they should still be *possible*. 

So we are talking about a "mule" or "liger" situation.

My sources are in storage. Sorry. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:12:15 PST
Subject: Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)

In mail you write:

> I am kinda curious, does anyone think Marxism will survive, other
> than at IG (there basic philosophy of everything being driven by
> economics is pure marxism)

Huh? Capitalism says the same thing!

Marxism and capitalism are theories of *economics*. Marxist *political*
theories are what most people think of as "marxism".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:06:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Seriously, any "digs" above are meant as friendly ribbing, not actual
> attacks. But I *am* serious when I say that several of the failing you
> point out are due to you making *incorrect* assumptions as to what my
> point was.

Ah. Another case of "I know you understand what you think I said but I'm
not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:22:20 -0600
Subject: Re: Hoppe, Skip, and Jump

I wrote:
>> Pseudo-scientific Explanation #2 (the better):
>>
>> Jump capable ships have a Zuchai crystal grid in the hull. This grid is

That Computer Guy Responded:
> Actually, it's the lanthanum grid.  The zuchai crystals are the power

Doooohh! <hand hits head> I stand corrected. Please replace zuchai crystals
with lanthanum grid throughout my post.

> storage capicators in the jump drive.  Your explanation is nice, but the
> jump grid is never mentioned as getting hot.  It's just the sequencing
> of energy to punch a ship through n-space into j-space in a particular
> way.  Also, one could argue that the heat idea is negated by the tales
> of people being on the hull of the ship (just under the jump bubble).

I want to make a clarification, in case my words were misunderstood. I made
sure to put "hot" in quotation marks. What i meant by "hot", was that the
grid is still active. The fancy reaction going on in the grid to create the
jump "bubble" around the ship is still in progress, and the reaction takes
some time to end. Also, the grid does not actually delineate the outside of
the jump field, it just creates the field around the ship. People can still
hang on the ship just inside the field if they like.

I see it as being analogous to a magnetic field created by an electrically
charged rotating coil. Whatever tachyon, graviton, or some other still
undiscovered particle field created by the lanthanum grid is *outside* the
grid, surrounding the ship, keeping the ship from dropping into n-space
before the carefully calculated and planned exit at the intended
destination.

> My take is more for #1 because it seems to stick more with what's been
> written about Traveller from the MM's j-space article back in JTAS 24 to
> SOM to TNE.

<Glenn blows the dust of his trusty JTAS 24>

I just re-read the article you mention, and I don't see anything that my
option #2 contradicted. To wit:

"At the end of the week in jump, the ship naturally precipitates out of
jump space and into normal space." - JTAS 24, p. 36

I just tried to explain the cause of the "natural precipitation" as being
the termination of the reaction within the Lanthanum Grid. I don't think I
broke the canon this time. :-)

BTW, my "theory" _includes_ the concept of multiple jumpspace dimensions,
and the requirement of different energy inputs into the grid to traverse
these dimensions.

I like #2 better than #1 because, in #1 it doesn't make sense that the time
spent in jump is variable. All the canon I've read (including JTAS 24) says
that the time spent in jump is *about* 1 week, it's variable. If the time
was some quantum constant, it shouldn't be variable. #2 easily explains
away the variability as being a function of the progress of the reaction,
calculated exit point, lanthanum grid imperfections, energy distribution
... etc etc etc

> To be honest, I would probably say that jump should be a combination of
> grid and fuel for coolant.  I like the idea that the hull is doing the
> energizing and entering of j-space, but I am also enamored with the idea
> that the j-drive and engineer actually have something to do once in
> jump.

I agree. My explanation includes this. The engineer has to be very careful
that the reaction occuring in the grid is relatively "uniform" throughout,
and that the termination of the reaction is controlled very closely, so
that the exact time of "precipitation into normal space" is known. The Jump
Drives control and drive the reaction in the grid as a power source and
motor controls and drives an electromagnet (Starship Drama Ahead) If the
reaction ends sooner or later than calculated, the planned location for
entering n-space could be waaaay out...

(Just think if some sabateur "spiked" the grid, causing a misjump, or
perhaps a fiendishly planned precipitation outside a different planet from
the one planned by the astrogator >:->

Well, I hope that ties up any loose threads in that theory. :)

Glenn Hoppe, Ph.D. Jumpspace Physics
Jumpspace Institute at Deneb



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #535
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 11 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 536

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         2. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. Re: (To Eris Reddoch) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         4. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (fwd)
         6. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
         7. Movies and Books
         8. Re: social-acceptance
         9. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        10. Re: The Aptitude Idea
        11. Re: The Aptitude Idea
        12. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        13. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #534
        15. Re: Imperial History
        16. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        17. Re: Hoppe, Skip, and Jump
        18. Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions
        19. cold equations
        20. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        21. Re: Ship mission/design question
        22. Starship Economics Problems (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:31:42 -0700
Subject: Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop, Skip, and Jump

On Tue, 08 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>You are arguing game mechanics.  What I was looking for is for someone to 
>give me an acceptible explanation why time in jump space requires one 
>week.

There is no such thing as a faster than light drive.  Lasers are inefficient
as personal weapons.  Thrust plates violate several laws of physics.

Yet I have used all three of these elements for years in Traveller *games*.

For a very real-life example of how you can use something without
understanding the underlying principles, please consider the following:

Many of you may have noticed the CANCER SURVIVOR line in my .sig.  I have
Hodgkin's Disease.  This what we know about the cause of the disease:




This our complete knowledge of why it strikes men in their late 20's:




There is a very good chemotherapy series, which I had.  This is how it
affects the disease:




That's right.  We don't know what causes it, why it hits young men, or even
how the treatment works, yet HD has a 90% survival rate!

I always get irked when someone announces that a fictional plot device isn't
possible (magic, Virus, psionics), or done wrong (energy weapons, FTL, alien
races).  When it comes to FTL, I have seen games that use everything from
Warp Drive to Stutterwarp, and everything in between.  None of them were
real, but they all worked in their situation.

The same can be said for Traveller's jump drive.  It has served well since
1977 and I see no reason to change the underlying assumptions on its
operation now.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Oct 96 22:49:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In regard to the discussion as to why a jump of any length takes the same amount
of time, one week, I can give a very "down-to-earth" example of a system that
behaves in the same way.

I saw an analysis many years ago of a tunnel system to connect points on the
surface of the Earth. The idea was to bore the tunnel in a straight line from
one point to the other. A train would travel through the evacuated tunnel on
frictionless rails (magnetic levitation or whatever). The train would require no
propulsion since it would fall into the tunnel drawn by gravity. Since there is
no friction, it would accelerate until it reached the deepest point in the
tunnel, then slow as it climbed back up, and come to a stop at the surface
destination. If you go through the physics and math, you will find that the trip
takes exactly the same length of time between any two points on the Earth's
surface--three hundred or three thousand miles! I need to redo the calculation
to reconstruct the travel time.

The concept can be extended to interstellar travel. Although we have drives that
can move ships through normal space, there are no drives that work in jump
space. What the ship does in performing a jump is to establish the n-dimensional
"tunnel" between two points on the surface of our spherical three dimensional
space. The ship then slides through the frictionless "tunnel" until it comes out
on the other side, one week later. (The fact that this trip takes a week could
be used to derive a lot of information about the structure of the n-dimensional
universe.) 

My whole point in this was to indicate that there are known physical systems
that behave in the same way as Traveller's jump time rule.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 21:47:14 -0500
Subject: Re: (To Eris Reddoch) Hop, Skip, and Jump

On 10/08/96 at 02:55 AM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>Eris, check out my comments to Trent Smith in Re: (To Trent Smith) Hop,
>Skip, and Jump. 

> If you think it through, my system does not interfere with the slow 
>communication/transportation feel of Traveller.  I really, really, really,
>like that  feel as well, and it is not my intention to disrupt that.

>I like the formula that you posted, but it seems still a little too slow. 
>I still don't  see that much of a time savings for the more advanced jump
>drives.

There isn't much savings, but that's what I wanted.  Just a
different view on how much to change this part.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 21:54:01 -0500
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On 10/08/96 at 04:13 AM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>> Why do we insist on normal distributions for task rolls, anyway? (And
>> don't invoke the dreaded canon! <g>) Why don't we just go to straight
>> percentage rolls?

>Here's my answer to that, Eris:  Because it feels wrong without them.

Like "one week in jump space, no matter what?"  <g> Ok!  Ok, I tend to
agree with you.  Traveller is primarily a d6 game.

>You people think that I'm disappointed with the T4 task system!  You
>should have seen me  when I bought TNE.  The Virus--the D20s--UHHH, I
>shudder.

Well, I had TW2K and T2300 to get me used to d20's and d10's, so that
didn't bother me too much.  I didn't like the Virus though. <g>

Staying with a strictly d6 system I can agree with, but let's do away with
as many of the d3's as we can..OK? <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:23:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (fwd)

then how about  REDUNDANT
Repeated Endless Discussion,  Useless News, Discuss A New Thread

>     I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous
>     and give the wrong answers.

Ha Ha Ha hee hee, chortle chortle (LOL, if you must)

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 22:09:38 -0500
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

On 10/09/96 at 07:49 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>1)  How complex do we want this to be?

    As simple as possible.
    
>	A) How many tables should be involved?

    None?
    
>	B) What sort of mathematical operations should be required?

    +-*/ and all of that done during Character Generation if
    possible

>2)  What sort of dice do we want to use?
>	A) Stick with D6's only?
        
       Ok
       
>	B) Use 1/2 Dice?

        Very limited if possible
        
>	C) Use D4's, D8's, D10's, D12's, and/or D20's?

        I wouldn't mind using d20's, but I doubt most others would
        
>3)  What should be the "base" for the roll?
>	A) Characteristics

        Characteristic or maybe 1/2 Characteristic
        
>4)  What should the basic modifiers to the target number be?

>	B) Skill Levels and C) Something else?

        I still like an Aptitude * Skill level

>5)  What sort of probability progression do we want from target number to 
>target number?

>6)  What sort of probability progression do we want from difficulty level 
>to difficulty level?

HUH? I guess I'm being slow, but I don't gronk!


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:20:47 -0700
Subject: Movies and Books

Well, since we are listing...

Movies:

Aliens, Ran, Die Hard, The Blues Brothers (did this as a Traveller adventure
once), The Rocky Horror Picture Show, Yellow Submarine, The Road Warrior
series, Star Trek IV & VI, A Bridge Too Far, Judgement At Nurenberg,
Lawerence of Arabia

Books:

Honor Harrington books, Starship Troopers, The Forever War, Hyperion, Philip
Jose Farmer's "The Dungeon", Riverworld, Anything by Niven, Pournelle, and
Barnes, Cyberpunk authors, military history

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 20:20:50 -0700
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>

>Yup, the joke's on us, all right . . . .
>
>Hey, why not steal Foxworthy's best bit for the interests of Da List:

<listing snipped>

This is going on The Silly Era tomorrow with your permission, Rich.  If
anyone has more ideas, feel free to send them to me for inclusion.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:29:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> Not to put a damper on the ole nuke warhead with pithy details but the
> grid is made of lanthanum. The zuchai crystals are used as an energy
> sink to contain the initial charge used to "boost" the tumble into
> Jumpspace. I consider this, however, to be absolutely irrelevant to the
> theory stated above. After all, at what rate does lanthanum radiate heat
> in Jumpspace?

All of this is moot (not the organization, the point) as the Lanthanum grid was a DGP 
idea (and a damn good one at that) so it is going out with the proverbial bathwater

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 22:15:10 -0500
Subject: Re: The Aptitude Idea

On 10/08/96 at 07:22 AM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>> Possible Aptitudes  (2d6)/2,dn or (2d3)-1
>> 
>> Aggressiveness  - modifies combat type skills
>> Charsima        - modifies interpersonal/social skills
>> Esthetic        - modifies artistic skills
>> Linguistic      - modifies communication/language skills
>> Mechanical      - modifies technical/mechanical skills
>> Natural         - modifies biological/wilderness/agurian skills
>> Scientific      - modifies science/theory skills
>> 
>> foex:
>> 
>> Skill       Attribute +  Aptitude * Skill     Target
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Melee CBT   STR  (4)  +  AGG (5)  *   2         14
>> 
>>     [Character isn't Strong, but she is *very* aggressive and can make a
>>     lot of use out of training!]
>> 
>> Melee CBT   STR  (10) +  AGG (1)  *   3         13
>> 
>>     [This Character is very Strong, but he's a pussy cat and even
>>     though he has a lot of training he still isn't a super warrior.]

>Now that you've made the idea a little clearer for me, I like the idea
>too.  I'd like to  see this in an IG Combat Supplement.  The only problem
>here is that I think it will take  a lot of work to complete such a
>system.  I feel it is beyond the scope of what we, or  I'm, trying to
>reach with a T4 task fix.

Probably, true.  Each Skill would need to be associated with an Aptitude,
at the very least.


Eris
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 22:46:27 -0500
Subject: Re: The Aptitude Idea

On 10/10/96 at 08:28 AM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>>Possible Aptitudes  (2d6)/2,dn or (2d3)-1

>I think 1D3 for this would be perfrct.

Maybe.  ;-> I'd like a slightly bigger range than that, but not too big.
(2d3)-1 would give a 1 to 5 range. 

>>Aggressiveness  - modifies combat type skills
>>Charsima        - modifies interpersonal/social skills
>>Esthetic        - modifies artistic skills
>>Linguistic      - modifies communication/language skills
>>Mechanical      - modifies technical/mechanical skills
>>Natural         - modifies biological/wilderness/agurian skills
>>Scientific      - modifies science/theory skills

>I would move Linguistic into the Charisma group, to make the group only
>six. Sorta keeps the Traveller feel. :)

I don't know exactly what to do about language.  It doesn't really fit into
Charisma, or any of the others.

>This is good.  I agree with the ideas you've got here.  I am not quite yet
>willing to give up on my skill specialty idea yet either.  Maybe there is
>some way we could incorporate the two into a single idea.  foex, the
>apptitudes would be either a 1 or 0 and the skill specialty would be a 0
>to 2 (or 3) then the skill modifier would be gained by adding the two
>together.

I don't know, let's play with it and see.

Eris
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 22:56:27 -0500
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On 10/10/96 at 09:56 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>In mail you write:

>> On 10/09/96 at 05:35 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said
>>
>>>1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
>>>the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
>>>attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.

>Everyone was complaining that things were "*way* too easy". So how about
>shifting the difficulty levels by *one* die. That'd make the end result
>tasks that are one die harder than the rules, but with the ovrwhelming
>attribute factor taken out.


Ben has the following Attributes and Skills...

STR  4 - 7 = -3   <-- negative numbers are going to be a problem DEX  9 - 7
=  2

Melee Cbt 3 + (-3) =  0  <--- a problem!

Pilot     2 + (2)  =  2  <--- awfully low!

Unless I'm misunderstanding this is going to far in reducing the influence
of Attributes.

Eris
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 96 23:09:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On 10/10/96 at 11:02 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>> Second, that you can make "short haul" jumps.  In my games, a ship has
>>> to be over 200 stellar diameters out to jump, and it can leave jump only
>>> within 2 stellar diameters.   

>Better do some figuring. Look up just what the "equilibrium temp" is at 2
>stellar diameters out from various stars.  You *won't* like the
>answer. 

It's acceptable if the ship hauls out of there at top speed. <g>

>Also work out the escape velocity at that distance. You won't like it
>either (as in, your ship doesn't have the power to get away)

Doesn't bother me, Leonard.  I don't have ships using the standard tech
maneuver drives either.

IAC, you're picking nits.  ;-> If you want to use the low
accleration thrusters, then make the jump in at 10 stellar
diameters.

Eris
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------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:54:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #534

>		YOU MIGHT BE A TRAVELLER PLAYER OR REF

This is great! Send this to TRAVELLER: The Silly Era!

We should make up some more Traveller jokes! (hey, it beats discussing
religion!)

                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Paul Kestner <pjwk@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:05:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial History

>On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Jamie Young wrote:
>
>> 
>> Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
>> allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
>> source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
>> eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love the idea
>> of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more scientifically
thought out.
>> 
>> Jamie
>> 

   What futher proof is needed to show that Grandfather and/or his children
were masterful genetic engineers ?   Most of the transplanted peoples became,
as you say, Homo Sapiens dispite envionmental conditions and influences.
  I wonder what project humans were selected for and dispersed so widely among
the stars that the Droyne themselves were not suitable for.   Also notice that
of the major races, humans have the most leanings towards psionics.

  
....
Paul Kestner  a.k.a.  pjwk@erols.com
parting remark: "The Devil hides in the details."
....


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 00:08:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On 10/10/96 at 11:10 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>         Thats why we extended the save jump point to size^2*10 light
>>         seconds, and the dangerous to (size-1)^2*10 light seconds.

>Great. The Sun is size 432. That means you have to get out to 520 light
>*hours* to make a safe jump. Or only 517 light hours to make a "dangerous"
>one.

>Want to try that one again?

Leonard, it seems you are having a bad day. <g>

The Sun is size *8* in Traveller terms, isn't it?  

So:  8^2*10 = 640ls

That would be around 1 1/4 AU, I think.

>ps. Someone else was talking about having to be 200 stellar diameters out
>to jump, and arriving 2 stellar diameters out. 

That would be be me.  Actually, the jump in distance I use is 2d6 stellar
diameters, so 2 is the closest approach.

>For the sun that means you have to be 1.856 AU out,

Yes, for Sol that is correct.

>and you arrive .01856 AU out.  That's one *hell* of a sunburn,
>folks!  (4 *megawatts* per square meter of hull!)  

My handy dandy Book 6 indicates a tempreture of around 2700 kelvin at that
range..assuming your ship absorbed all the radiation. Ship's in my games
have highly reflective surfaces and that helps, but jumping in that close
is still not a happy place to be.  <g> Your Astrogator better be good and
your Pilot better be able fly you out of there toot suite!

>There's also the not so trivial matter of the sun exerting 1.75 g
>on your ship at that distance.  What?  You only have a 1 g drive.
>Too bad...

It certainly would be I was using standard canoncal drives, good thing I'm
not.  <g> Ken and I were very clear about this discussion not being
canoncal, weren't we?


Eris
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------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 05:26:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Hoppe, Skip, and Jump

Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> I like #2 better than #1 because, in #1 it doesn't make sense that the time
> spent in jump is variable. All the canon I've read (including JTAS 24) says
> that the time spent in jump is *about* 1 week, it's variable. If the time
> was some quantum constant, it shouldn't be variable. 

It just keeps getting better, doesn't it?  

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:50:25 +0100
Subject: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

Hi all,

I'm trying to do a little background research on the Scout Service, both
from the Milieu 0 viewpoint and the Third Imperium (pre Rebellion).

I've got the various insignia from Scouts and Assassins (Paranoia Press) and
the World Builder's Handbook (DGP) but I have no indication of the COLOURS
of the insignia, nor of the standard one-piece uniforms the scouts wore.

For some reason I have the following in mind, but I've not managed to track
down any 'canon' sources for these, so I don't know where I got the info from:

LIGHT GREY one-piece uniform?
Badges are BLACK with YELLOW insignia (i.e. the ponii is yellow)?
The sunburst emblem is yellow on a black background?

The MT Referee's Companion shows the guys standing on the refuelling scout
ship in light BLUE uniforms. I thought the NAVY was BLUE. So what colour are
the scouts, and army? Someone mentioned some months back about the sunbursts
for the navy being blue and the army being black?

Can someone please point me to something which confirms or denies the above
(it's fairly urgent!!!)?

Andy :-)


------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 11:03:06 GMT
Subject: cold equations

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : cold equations
DATE     :  Fri Oct 11 10:57:01 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

Before I forget, I ought to thank whoever it was that
mentioned Tom Godwin's story called the 'Cold Equations' as
being good.

I have spent a week's worth of lunch times wading through
second hand bookships (literally), browsing new bookshops,
surfing the net and checking local libraries, in order to
find an SF anthology with this story.  I finally found it
yesterday at the last place I could think of trying in a book
edited by Robert Silverberg called  SF Hall of Fame  Vol.1.

For the 2nd most anthologised SF story ever, it was
surprisingly hard to locate.  Let me say however, it was
worth every minute.

I even read it on the car journey home to the two ladies I
travel with and had them in tears by the last paragraph.

Many thanks - whoever it was - for an enjoyable search and a
wonderful read.

Timothy

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 06:05:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

In a message dated 96-10-10 14:57:42 EDT, you write:

<< c. Did he actually discover it, or take credit for it (a la Roman emperors
and relatives 
 taking credit for the work of several legions or Thomas A. Edison)
  >>

Or did he simply figure out how some ancient artifact worked?

Marc

------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:22:58 +0100
Subject: Re: Ship mission/design question

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 	How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
> low passage) one way, and bulk materials back?

One thing to consider is how much life support the "animals" require
if they're not in low-berths.  If you can make a profit by just
cramming them in the hold and feeding them every now and again, do it.
Modern ships carry animals for months in increadibly cramped
conditions, so I imagine ships of the future could get away with it.
The only problem is the increased life support cost.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:00:13 +1000
Subject: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Oops, I sent the material in Word 7 format - here it is again in ASCII
(sorry!).

Phil McGregor
- -- 
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Have Game Designer Will Travel
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Starship Economics - Some Problems

Costs & Profits

What are the actual costs involved in starship operations? Well, we know =
that life support costs are 2000 Cr per stateroom per two weeks (and the =
components - presumably including food - take no space on the ship!), =
and that staterooms can be at least double occupancy, and some sources =
imply that "hot bunking" can be used, which implies that up to four =
people can be supported on a "per stateroom" basis. This means that =
actual Life Support costs (depending on what they actually represent) =
are 250-500 Cr per person per week.

If travelling by Low Passage, costs are a flat 1000 Cr - and there is no =
(or minimal) Life Support costs.

We also know that cargoes can be carried by a ship for 1000 Cr per ton =
(the "standard" rate), and that this is a allegedly a profitable =
arrangement for a commercial design hull (i.e. something like a Free, =
Far or Fat Trader rather than something like a Scout or Yacht).

The Free Trader: An Example

Of course, none of the supposedly commercial designs in any iteration of =
Traveller have actually ever been profitable on this basis. For example, =
a standard Free Trader (T4 model) will cost c. 170125 Cr per month =
(assuming she makes two 1 Parsec Jumps and carries a full passenger/crew =
loadout) not including crew salaries (assuming 1 Pilot/Navigator, two =
Engineers, and a Steward {paid as a Medic}, this adds a minimum of a =
further 16000 Cr per month, for a total of 186125 Cr per month) but, =
even if she travels with a full commercial passenger (all assumed to be =
High Passage types) and cargo load, she can earn a maximum of 291800 Cr.

The Stock Free Trader (as per T4)

On a usable space basis, the FT has 120 tons of commercial space (6 =
Staterooms @ 4 tons each, 20 Low Passage Berths @ 1 ton each, and 75.9, =
call it 76, tons of cargo =3D 100 tons), and the actual cost (assuming a =
round 200k Cr per month costs) is 1667 Cr per usable ton. Since she =
generates 291800 Cr (running full) per month, she has an income per =
usable ton of  2918 Cr. Profit per usable ton is 1251 Cr. Or, in other =
words, she can break even as long as she carries around 57% of her rated =
cargo/passenger capacity.

Lets look at it on a line item basis (all items assume two 1 Parsec =
Jumps per month) -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo Space =3D 20000 Cr income; 8335 Cr =
cost. Profit =3D 11665 Cr (240% return on costs)
1 Middle Passage in High Passage Cabin =3D 16000 Cr income; 6668 Cr =
cost. Profit =3D 9332 Cr (240% return on costs)
1 Low Passage =3D 2000 Cr income; 1667 Cr cost. Profit =3D 333 Cr.
1 ton Cargo =3D 2000 Cr income; 1667 Cr cost. Profit =3D 333 Cr.

The Modified Free Trader (Type 1.1)

Assuming that the vessel never uses unrefined fuel, then the Fuel =
Purification plant may be foregone. Although the game description of the =
FT-1 does not indicate the capacity of this plant, it the space =
available (on some quick reverse engineering) is only enough for the 24 =
ton TL12 model. Foregoing this plant increases the space available for =
commercial use by 24 tons - for a total of 144 tons. This gives a per =
usable ton cost (per month) of 1389 Cr

Assuming this modification runs full, then the income is 339800 Cr per =
month, or an income per usable ton of 2740 Cr. Profit per usable ton is =
thus 1351 Cr - in other words, she can break even as long as she carries =
approximately 50% of her rated cargo/passenger capacity.

Lets look at this modification on a line item basis (all items assume =
two 1 Parsec Jumps per month) -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo =3D 20000 Cr income; 6945 Cr cost. =
Profit =3D 13055 Cr (288% return on costs).
1 Middle Passage in High Passage Cabin =3D 16000 Cr income; 5556 Cr =
cost. Profit =3D 10444 Cr (288% return on costs).
1 Low Passage =3D 2000 Cr income; 1389 Cr cost. Profit =3D 611 Cr (144% =
return on costs).
1 ton Cargo =3D 2000 Cr income; 1389 Cr cost. Profit =3D 611 Cr (144% =
return on costs).

The Unarmed Free Trader (Model 1.2)

Foregoing the twin Civilian Laser Batteries and TL12 MFD releases a =
further 8 tons for a total commercially usable space of 152 tons. This =
gives a per usable ton cost (per month) of 1316 Cr

Assuming this modification runs full, then the income is 355800 Cr per =
month, or an income per usable ton of 2695 Cr. Profit per usable ton is =
thus 1379 Cr - in other words, she can break even as long as she carries =
approximately 49% of her rated cargo/passenger capacity.

Lets look at this modification on a line item basis (all items assume =
two 1 Parsec Jumps per month) -

1 High Passage Cabin =3D 20000 Cr income; 6580 Cr cost. Profit =3D 13420 =
Cr (304% return on costs).
1 Middle Passage in High Passage Cabin =3D 16000 Cr income; 5624 Cr =
cost. Profit =3D 10736 Cr (304% return on costs).
1 Low Passage =3D 2000 Cr income; 1316 Cr cost. Profit =3D 684 Cr (152% =
return on costs).
1 ton Cargo =3D 2000 Cr income; 1316 Cr cost. Profit =3D 684 Cr (152% =
return on costs).

The Underlying Problem

So, in our standard example, it seems that it is impossible to turn a =
profit when carrying cargo or low passage types! Yes, I know that the =
system allows a Captain/Owner to buy and sell cargoes for themselves and =
that this potentially allows a greater profit being turned - but it =
seems lunatic to allow interstellar commerce to be carried out on such a =
basis.=20

The problem is obviously not with Passage profitability (there are other =
problems that will be dealt with elsewhere), other than Low Passage, it =
is with Cargo profitability.

The obvious initial problem is with the space taken up by the completely =
unprofitable (as per standard rules, anyway) Fuel Refining plant and =
Armament. There seems no earthly reason why any sane designer would =
include a refining plant of any size (at TL12) or any armament into a =
Free Trader unless there is some variable cost for cargo - which, =
according to the rules as they are written, there is not. After all, it =
states quite plainly (page #7, T4 Rules) "Everything Is Driven By =
Economics" - yet there is no economic benefit for a Free Trader carrying =
a Fuel Purification plant or any armament.

This is obviously ridiculous - the reality would be that the Fuel =
Refining Plant would increase the flexibility of the FT to service =
out-of-the-way planets that do not sell refined fuel. According to =
published data, refined fuel is available only at Type A or B Starports =
- - so there must be an economic cost of having a Type C or worse Port =
that would be represented in the cost of carrying cargo to and from such =
a port.

Similarly, in the interior regions of the Imperium (or any Interstellar =
state), safety can be expected to be such that Piracy is nonexistent - =
or nonexistent along heavily travelled routes, anyway. In the outer =
regions, or in areas where there is pirate activity for other factors, =
then the need for armed ships is obvious - and passengers and cargo =
shippers will pay a premium for them.

What cost increase should apply?

I would suggest that no commercially viable vessel should exist that is =
not capable, as a stripped down, no frills, version (like the FT 1.2) of =
breaking even running with at least 50-60% of each element of revenue =
producing tonnage running full.

Furthermore, I would suggest that any vessel carrying "extras" - fuel =
purification, better than normal sensors, weapons and fire control =
equipment, space to planet transport or small craft - should be able to =
charge a premium for their services based on breaking even at 50-60% =
"full".

Taking the three models of FT described above as an example, lets see =
what sort of costings should apply -

Standard FT 1.0

High Passage x 6: Cost =3D 8335 Cr per Cabin per month, or 50.01k Cr for =
all six. Running with three staterooms occupied at all times produces =
60k Cr, or a modest profit of 9990 Cr.

Middle Passage x 6: Cost =3D 6668k Cr per Cabin per month, or 40008 Cr =
for all six. Running with three staterooms occupied at all times =
produces 48k Cr, a modest profit of 9992 Cr.

Low Passage x 20: Cost =3D 1667 Cr per Berth per month, or 33.34k Cr for =
all twenty. Running with twelve occupied berths at all times produces =
24k Cr, 9340 Cr short of the required minimum. The actual cost therefore =
needs to be 1400 Cr per passenger.

Cargo x 76 tons: Cost =3D126692 Cr per month. Running 60% full (46 tons) =
produces 92k Cr, or a shortfall of 34692 Cr. This means that the cost of =
carrying cargo on a FT 1.0 needs to be a minimum of 1380 Cr per ton.

FT 1.1 (no Fuel Refining)

High Passage x 6: Cost =3D 6945 Cr per Cabin per month, or 41.67k Cr for =
all six. Running with three staterooms occupied at all times produces =
60k Cr, a handsome profit of 18.33k Cr!

Middle Passage x 6: Cost =3D 5556 Cr per Cabin per month, or 33336 Cr =
for all six. Running with three staterooms occupied at all times =
produces exactly 48k Cr, a profit of 14664 Cr!

Low Passage x 20: Cost =3D 1389 Cr per Berth per month, or 27.78k Cr for =
all twenty. Running with twelve occupied berths at all times produces =
24k Cr, a loss of 3780 Cr. The cost of Low Passage therefore needs to be =
1158 Cr per berth.

Cargo x 100 tons: Cost =3D 138.9k Cr per month. Running 60%  full (60 =
tons) produces 120k Cr. a shortfall of 18900 Cr. This means that the =
cost of carrying cargo on a FT 1.1 needs to be a minimum of 1158 Cr per =
ton.

FT 1.2 (No Armament or Fuel Refining) 1316

High Passage x 6: Cost =3D 6580 Cr per Cabin per month, or 39.48k Cr for =
all six. Running with three staterooms occupied at all times produces =
60k Cr - a handsome profit of 20.52k Cr!

Middle Passage x 6: Cost =3D 5264 Cr per Cabin per month, or 31584 Cr =
for all six. Running with three staterooms occupied at all times =
produces exactly 48k Cr, or a handsome profit of 16416 Cr.

Low Passage x 20: Cost =3D 1316 Cr per Berth per month, or 26.32k Cr for =
all twenty. Running with twelve occupied berths at all times produces =
24k Cr, a loss of 2320 Cr. The cost of Low Passage therefore needs to be =
1097 Cr per Berth.

Cargo x 108 tons: Cost =3D 142148 Cr per month. Running 60% full (65 =
tons) produces 130k Cr, a loss of 12148 Cr. This means that the cost of =
carrying cargo on a FT 1.2 needs to be a minimum of 1094 Cr per ton.

So much for the "mythical" 1000 Cr per ton for shipping cargo. though =
you can get close.

Far Trader 1.0

A standard Free Trader (T4 model) will cost c. 187841 Cr per month =
(including salaries); even if she travels with a full commercial =
passenger (all assumed to be High Passage types) and cargo load, she can =
earn a maximum of 269800 Cr.

The Stock Far Trader (as per T4)

On a usable space basis, the FT has 100 tons of commercial space (6 =
Staterooms @ 4 tons, 10 Low Passage Berths @ 1 ton each, and 64.9, call =
it 65, tons of cargo =3D 100 tons), and the actual cost (assuming a =
round 200k Cr per month costs) is 2000 Cr per usable ton. Since she =
generates 269800 Cr (running full) per month, she has an income per =
usable ton of  2698 Cr. Profit per usable ton is 698 Cr. Or, in other =
words, she can break even as long as she carries around 75% of her rated =
cargo/passenger capacity.

Lets look at it on a line item basis (all items assume two 1 Parsec =
Jumps per month) -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo Space =3D 20000 Cr income; 10000 Cr =
cost. Profit =3D 10000 Cr (200% return on costs)
1 Middle Passage in High Passage Cabin =3D 16000 Cr income; 8000 Cr =
cost. Profit =3D 8000 Cr (200% return on costs)
1 Low Passage =3D 2000 Cr income; 2000 Cr cost. Profit =3D 0 Cr.
1 ton Cargo =3D 2000 Cr income; 2000 Cr cost. Profit =3D 0 Cr.

Breaking this down further -

High Passage: Cost is 10k Cr each per month, or 60k Cr for all six. =
Assuming 50% occupancy, this brings in 60k Cr per month, exact break =
even cost.

Middle Passage: Cost is 8k Cr each per month, or 48k Cr for all six. =
Assuming 2/3rds occupancy, this brings in 48k Cr per month, exact break =
even cost.

Low Passage: Cost is 2000 Cr each, so 10 cost 20k Cr per month. Assuming =
6 run full at all times, revenue 12k Cr for a month, a loss of 8000 Cr. =
Actual Low Passage cost therefore needs to be 1667 Cr per berth.

Cargo: Cost is 2000 Cr per ton, so 65 tons cost 130k Cr per month. =
Assuming she runs at 60% full (39 tons), revenue per month is 78000 Cr, =
a loss of 52k Cr. Actual Cargo cost therefore needs to be 1667 Cr per =
ton.

So, you pay a premium for having J2 capacity. Arming the vessel and =
adding fuel refining capacity would further increase actual costs of =
cargo and passenger carriage. Sorry, but there's no way that a 1000 Cr =
per ton value can be achieved!

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BBB752.9D60F900--


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #536
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 11 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 537

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Jump Space and the One Week Concept
         2. Jump Space and the One Week Concept
         3. Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions
         4. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 
         5. Re: Time Traveller 
         6. Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)
         7. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)
         8. Re: Time Traveller, timeloc vs. a multiverse 
         9. News From Imperium Games
        10. Bureaucrats Etc.
        11. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
        12. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!) 
        13. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)
        14. Re: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        15. Re: Probability
        16. Re: Questions about T4
        17. (Fwd) Re: Milieu 0 Outline
        18. (Fwd) Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
        19. (Fwd) Re: Ship mission/design question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:11:10 +0100
Subject: Jump Space and the One Week Concept

David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> pointed out that

>> > Jump capable ships have a Zuchai crystal grid in the hull. This grid is

was wrong, i.e.

>grid is made of lanthanum. The zuchai crystals are used as an energy
>sink to contain the initial charge used to "boost" the tumble into

I think, whatever the exact wording or method (e.g. FF&S had the jump
"coils", etc.) what's important is the perception of jump space that you
want to be able to explain to your players when they ask "Why a week..."

An analogy I just thought up (it might be crud but bear with me) is to think
of yourself as at one point on a plane (an infinite "flat" Earth) and trying
to get to another point on that plane. Think of the atmosphere as being
divided into multiple layers - the stuff at ground level is "real" space,
the next level up the Jump-1 dimension/space, etc. upwards to Jump-6 (or
possibly higher). A bit like the atmosphere the layers start off _really_
dense but by Jump-6 are really thin.  The boundary between each atmospheric
layer has a certain 'strength' which must be overcome to enter said layer.

You load yourself into a shell and fire yourself towards your desired
destination, imagine aiming up at about a 45 degree angle from the
horizontal. If you fire yourself too weakly upwards, you 'bounce' off the
Jump-1 layer and remain in normal space. To target yourself at a point which
we'll call 1 parsec away on this planar surface, the arc of your path will
be such as to pass only through the Jump-1 layer. You need X energy to break
into that layer and once you're in it, it's pretty dense, so you'll take a
week to travel to the end of the arc where you drop back through the
boundary to "real" space, i.e. you land on the planar surface about 1 jump
away from where you started.

When you go for Jump-6, you use the same angle, but you shoot off with (for
simplicity's sake) 6X energy - your arc carries you very quickly through the
dense Jump-1 layer and up through the other layers, each less dense and thus
allowing you to travel further, with less drag (eventually entering the
Jump-6 layer). Finally you start dropping back through the layers and land
on the planar surface 6 parsecs from your starting point. Because your
flight was mostly through the less dense upper layers, it's still only taken
you about a week to make the trip, but you needed that much more energy to
break through to that nice 'thin' Jump-6 layer.

Note the "what goes up must come down" philosophy, i.e. gravity. A gravitic
field might manifest itself as localised variations in the density of each
level, such that if you passed close to a really heavy object (e.g. star)
this would be equivalent to entering a very dense region of a layer. This
would 'slow' your progress, perhaps so greatly that you come to a stop and
just drop 'down' through the layers to emerge in 'real' space.

The 'arc' analogy does have some faults - in theory for Jump-6 you'll not be
travelling in the Jump-6 dimension all the time, but spending a finite
period in each of the other layers. However, the "canon" has never gone into
this in sufficient detail to preclude this as a possible theory.

The "one week" just happens to be approximately the amount of time that
almost any Jump 'arc' takes through the 'layers', due to their varying
densities.

Also, micro-jumps are more difficult to explain. Basically, imagine you're
changing the angle at which you're fired upwards and only pumping in just
enough energy to pierce the Jump-1 layer. What this might mean is that a
Jump-0 must have some minimum range, or that a Jump-0 to the same point in
space might take less than a week.

Anyone understand all this? Anyone care to comment?

Andy Lilly :-)
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:28:08 +0100
Subject: Jump Space and the One Week Concept

I was just thinking a bit further on my preceding post. If we could agree on
a simple analogy such as the one I suggested, we could really start
answering some of those awkward questions about "what happens if someone
drops off the hull during a jump", "can a ship launch another ship (or two
ships joined become separate) in jump", etc.

Oh, and the jump grid/field/coil/spring/whatever could exist throughout the
trip, or only really be needed to punch through the layers when going 'up'
and perhaps be fading out when coming 'down', or perhaps the grid levels DO
have to be carefully monitored to ensure that they are at the right levels
to puncture each layer both "up" and "down", which is why the middle of the
trip might be quite quiet, but the rest of the time the engineers have to
watch the drives?

Not that I'm trying to force this idea onto people but it makes good sense
to me.

Has anyone got any trajectory modelling software which could have varying
density atmosphere layers typed in to see if the "one week" for all arcs
"Jump-1" to "Jump-6" would actually work out in some weird mathematical way
and what the ratio of energies would be for each jump level?

Andy Lilly :-)
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:40:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

On 11 Oct 96 at 10:50, Andy Lilly wrote:

>Can someone please point me to something which confirms or denies the above
>(it's fairly urgent!!!)?

MT Players' Manual, Page 27:

Original colors: black background w/yellow sunburst
IISS: red sunburst
Imperial Navy: yellow
Imperial Army: black
Imperial Marines: maroon

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:16:33 -0400
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 

Daid Joseph Smart writes: 

 "Ah ha! Another D100 fan. Happen to have a RuneQuest background there,
  Earl?"

Not me, no, but Jim Burrows, the co-author of our in-house game mechanics, 
might have.  He sampled several RPGs over the years before we developed
our own.  He cut his teeth on D&D (before there was AD&D), and ran 
Fantasy Trip (the GURPS precursor, I think), and a few others including 
an early version of Hero, all of which helped inspire him to concoct his 
own rule set.  I helped some with the mechanics, but more with the 
skill set and background.  We call it FuRPiG.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:25:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Time Traveller 

Leonard Erickson writes:

 "> Besides, if someone *starts* to tell you the future, you never 
  > know how it's going to turn out until it's too late.

  "Of course, he *could* be lying."

Exactly. 

 "BTW, one of the *classic* stories about this is part of the little
  known "Change War" series by Fritz Leiber. The title is "Try and Change
  the Past"."

I've read several of the "Change War" stories, inclding this one and the 
short novel, "The Big Time."  Lots of fun.

 "The basic principle behind all of this is that your freedom of action
  is inversely proportional to your knowledge (or directly proportional
  to your ignorance, if you want to look at it that way).

 "The difference between "what you know" and "what you think you know"
  becomes critical."

You've grasped it perfectly.  In fact, my PC has suffered for years 
from a statement that MIGHT be a prophecy, but he doesn't know for sure.
After he made some pithy comment, another time-traveller from even 
further in the future exclaimed, "Oh, you're THAT Tom Noon! But you're 
supposed to be a legendary religious figure on Hellene." "What?" "Oops.
Never mind."  The problem is (1) this blabbermouth is the mischievous 
sort and might have been teasing, but (2) Tom doesn't WANT to figure as 
anybody's legendary religious figure.

Makes for a good running gag in the game.

Earl Wajenberg



------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:33:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)

Hi.

Leonard Erickson made an audacious claim:

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:10:04 PST
>Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply

>Please note that there is strong evidence that humans, chimps, and
>gorillas are interfertile, though no one is about the try the
>experiment, even in vitro.

I heard somewhere that the Nazis tried to interbreed chimps with Jews
and Poles in the death camps. They failed.

I'll try to scrounge up my references if you try to scrounge up yours.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 11 Oct 96 09:47:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)

a question: What does all this have to do with traveller?

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:54:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Time Traveller, timeloc vs. a multiverse 

To Joel Lovell:

Thank you for the links.  I'll look them up.

I am familiar with the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. 
As you remark, it's one of many.  It doesn't happen to be my favorite.
(Something with hidden variables, but of course non-local and with a small 
side-order of residual randomness, please.)

The differences here, until someone actually does some time travel, 
are stylistic.  Of course branching history can be used to resolve 
the paradoxes.  So can timelock.  I prefer timelock, because I like 
the "elegance" of the concept, and I like the idea that you have to 
live with the consequences of your actions, not just re-edit things
over and over again.  I find the branching-histories idea unpleasantly
spongey and shapeless.

Part of the elegance, by the way, is that timelock does not depend on 
which interpretation of quantum mechanics turns out to be right.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:12:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: News From Imperium Games

The News from IG                                       October 11, 1996

The folks at IG have been on vacation for a couple of weeks, as you may 
already know.  But they'll be back in the harness next week, and their web
site will return to its usual weekly update schedule.  

In addition, IG is undergoing some changes.  They're off-loading the
day-to-day business processes onto their parent organization, which will
allow them to focus their energies entirely upon creating Traveller
gaming products.  This renewed focus includes, among other things, my 
role as IG's representative to the TML.  It is hoped that I will be 
able to provide timely information to TML participants, while freeing 
the folks at IG from spending so much time talking on the phone and  
writing email to the hundreds of people who call and/or write every 
week.  They don't want their fans to be left out in the cold, but they
also don't want to have to stop making products! :)

The parent organization has given IG a new focus on producing the 
highest quality product at a competitive price.  Expect to see more 
color plates, more custom artwork (no more generic stuff), top-quality 
printing, far fewer errors, and all of the other markings of premium 
gaming products.  At the same time, the parent organization wants 
Traveller to sell extremely well.  Therefore, the prices will be held 
down even as the costs of production rise.  

The idea is to get Traveller into the hands of as many people as 
possible by making it the best RPG available anywhere, without pricing 
themselves out of the market.  This is good news for us.  It means that the
investors are in for the long haul.  They're willing to sacrifice short-term
profits for long-term viability.  Needless to say, that's a pretty unusual 
attitude in today's business environment.

These changes are beginning now, but they will continue to be implemented 
in stages over the next two or three months.  By the end of December, 
everything should be in place.  From that time (at the latest), everything 
will be top-quality and on-time, every time.

If you have any questions, please let me know.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:24:40 GMT
Subject: Bureaucrats Etc.

>Sounds good.  Perhaps a new career for someone in the Imperial bureauacracy?

Hm.  At the risk of loading up too much work for myself, here are the
CT/MT/TNE careers I've converted to T4.  With a bit of luck I'll have them
converted to HTML and posted on my web site sometime this weekend:

journalist
bureaucrat
farmer
craftsman
technician
belter
skimmer
hunter/guide
warrior
diplomat

More will follow as time permits (although I'm hoping one of my students will
stay interested and help with the conversions).

If you can't wait, you can find my MT character generator at:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:38:39 GMT
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

Personally, I don't like the emphasis on attributes, but I managed to live
with it in TNE by using 1/2 attribute and 1.5 skill level to compute target
number.  I think that would work for T4.

As to your other questions, here is my take:

Any math involved should ideally be done before the game on the character
sheet.  During the game, I want to me able to say "Make a Difficult roll" and
have the player do so without reference to a table (except maybe the back of
my ref's screen which has a chart of difficulty levels and numbers of dice).

Although a ref can always tweak the system by assigning individual small mods
to target number/throw, the actual task system shouldn't require them to
function properly.

One problem with the Easy to Impossible probability spread is that each
increase in difficulty is only 1/2 a dice, an average of only one more point
of skill or attribute to keep the same chance of succeeding.  (Yes, I'm
simplifying, but not much.)  I would increase the task difficulties by more
dice, especially at the upper end (Impossible/Staggering).

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:42:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!) 

Jeffery M. Miller asks:

 "a question: What does all this have to do with traveller?"

It relates to the existence of multiple human races in the game 
setting.  If chimps and humans are still interfertile, then it's 
very likely that all the various human races of the game still 
are, even though their populations were separated back at Homo 
habilis or whatever that pre-sapiens species was.

If not, then the different human races would have speciated and 
individuals of the different races would not be interfertile.

(Remembered quote: "I didn't know Klingons and humans could have 
children." "Actually, the DNA is quite compatible, given a lot of
help, rather like my mother and father.")

Actually, there's a sliding scale of possibilities:

1) Free interfertility.
2) Reduced interfertility.
3) Interfertility only with medical intervention.
4) Production of sterile hybirds ("mules").
5) Production of sterile hybrids only with medical intervention.
6) No interfertility.

(How handy.  Just roll one die.  And I didn't even plan it that way.)

And, of course, the situation could be different for different races.
That is, Solomani and Vilani might be at (2), but Solomani and Zhodani 
might be at (3), while Zhodani and Vilani might be at (1), etc. 

By the way, what do these different human races LOOK like?  Just 
within the Solomani, we have variations of pigment, nose shape, 
epicanthic folds, fullness of lip, hair texture, and general hairiness.
If these various races are in danger of being separate species, it 
seems likely some of them have clearly visible physical differences.
("That's funny. You don't look Vilani.")

Ursula K. LeGuin wrote a series of novesl, the "Hainish novels," in 
which Earth is one of several colonies of the human homeworld, Hain, 
but the old Hainish community broke up so long ago that all the Hainish 
worlds have their own separate species (sometimes several) of human.
Titles include:
 - The Left Hand of Darkness (featuring a race of hermaphrodites)
 - Rocanon's World
 - The Word for World Is Forest
 - The Dispossessed
 - City of Illusions
and some others.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:44:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)

At 09:33 AM 10/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi.
>
>Leonard Erickson made an audacious claim:
>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:10:04 PST
>>Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches: A Reply
>
>>Please note that there is strong evidence that humans, chimps, and
>>gorillas are interfertile, though no one is about the try the
>>experiment, even in vitro.
>
>I heard somewhere that the Nazis tried to interbreed chimps with Jews
>and Poles in the death camps. They failed.
>
>I'll try to scrounge up my references if you try to scrounge up yours.
>
>-Rob
>
>
This claim might develop from the fact that chimpanzees and homo sap. differ
in ONE chromosome pair.  I can easily dig up the genetics research that
supports this.  But they are not interfertile.

In addition, if Homo Erectus was distrubuted throught the galaxy...and ALL
developed into modern humans, it would be amazing...but we only recognize
the ones that DID develop into humans as that...many minor races might be
Homo Er. with a left turn in a strange environment.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:44:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

>Also, it's ridiculous for attribute to count for *more* than skill. 

Yup.

How about adding skill and attribute, with the proviso that the attribute is
limited to the skill * 2?

Thus, your Dex 10 Pilot 1 would roll against a target number of 3, while your
Dex 4 Pilot 6 would roll against 10?

This would still give an advantage to naturally talented people, provided
that they had the training to take advantage of that talent. In the above
example, if each pilot improves their skill by one, the more dexterous will
have a new target number of 4+2=6 (doubling his number) while the 'klutz'
would have a new number of 4+7=11 (only an improvement of 1).

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:52:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Probability

>I think *I'm* confused... Combat Biology !?!

Obviously a Vilani agent in disguise.  (Nakita not being a Vilani name.) 
Remember that the Vilani use any means to win, including liberal use of
Chemical and biological weapons.  I suspect this Nakita person is preparing
to release a tailored plague - hence the use of Biology to calculate a hit
number.  :-)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:05:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Questions about T4

On 10 Oct 96 at 18:11, Joe Walsh spewed:

> Today, I called Ken to ask whether he had received the edited copy
> of T4 which I sent him (he had), and he had a question for /me/ for
> once:  Would I be the official TML contact for IG?

I don't know why they didn't think of this before.  They're too few 
in number to have to answer too many questions...

Since your now the TML IG Gawd...have you heard anything on the 
projected releases for JTAS #25, and Starships?

> "Hey you nuns, want to meet the pope?" :)  That was an easy question
> for me to answer. ;)

:-)

> Oh, and one more thing:  Go easy on me, eh? :)

Go easy?  Darn...take all the fun out of it...  :-(

(Stu walks away, whimpering, with slumped shoulders, looking 
depressed...)

:-)

Stu

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:10:04 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Milieu 0 Outline

My apologies Douglas, meant to forward this to the list...

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          Self <sdollar>
To:            "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject:       Re: Milieu 0 Outline
Reply-to:      sdollar@goodnet.com
Date:          Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:25:52 -0800

On 10 Oct 96 at 18:56, Douglas E. Berry spewed:

> On Thu, 10 Oct 1996,  "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> mentioned:
> 
> >e. Merchant Exploration Cruiser
> 
> Can we all say "Leviathan"?  I'm waiting for Starships to arrive at

Leviathan, or something like her was exactly what I had in mind.  A
heavily armed, Merchant Cruiser.  Fill the cargo hold full o' TL 12
glass beads, and look for the natives...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:10:05 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          Self <sdollar>
To:            Suzette Dollar <suzd@goodnet.com>
Subject:       Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
Reply-to:      sdollar@goodnet.com
Date:          Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:38:22 -0800

Somehow, I dumped this post, but here's my Cr 0.02 on this 1...

On  9 Oct 96 at 13:11, Suzette Dollar spewed:

> >         I would allow a Con+1/Str-1 for female characters rule,
> >         for the physical attributes. But if we increase Cha what
> >         mentatal attribute should we decrease. Int or Edu would
> >         certainly make womans inferior.

Actually, in no way could you make the case for changing, 
Charisma/Social Standing, Intelligence, or Education in any way.  To
do less would smack of bigotry.  Of course, the opportunity to get an
education for males or females could be limited by the opportunities
on their particular world, and Social standing could be different for
different worlds...

Don't forget the possibility of matriarchies, btw.  There will 
undoubtedly be the occasional world in which women dominate 
politically, and men are 2nd class citizens.

> >         I would advise a different rule: Whenever a charisma
> >         based task is between a woman and a man increase
> >         the assert by one and expect strange situations
> >         if the TL+Edu < 10.

Not to open another can of worms, but what if 1 of the 2 people in
your example are homosexual...or (in the case of alien encounters)
asexual...this would blow the heck out of your model...

> I'll buy the con/str idea only because the + to con offsets the - to
> str, but if I were a GM (Stu bears that title), I think I'd opt for
> a straight -1 to str and leave it at that.  There is no

I'd opt for nothing.  Don't like not making 1 sex weaker than the
other?  Don't think it realistic?  Maybe the woman is trained in
self-defense methods?  Maybe she's good with a pair of brass
knuckles...  Maybe she's a body builder?  

BTW, if you do use a STR-1, you might consider a DEX+1.  Recent 
studies suggest that women have more manual dexterity, and faster
reaction times than men...

> charisma/empathy attribute in Traveller.  Social Standing certainly

Suz is unaware or has forgotten about the charisma attribute that is
present in TNE, as well as Vargr characters from CT/MT...

Remember when adjusting any of these characteristics, particularly
using T4's task system, that the +1's & -1's can seriously skew the
possibility of successfully completing tasks, and that most racial
differences with aliens in Traveller are modified by +1 or -1, so its
a big step to say that every man is +1 stronger than a woman...

> wouldn't be gender biased.  Int & Edu wouldn't be.  Dex/Agil? well,
> I wouldn't want to even suggest that men couldn't have a dex of 15,
> nor would I suggest that as a rule of thumb women are more dextrous
> than men... my own household not withstanding <g>.

I would...  See the above...

Stu "10 left thumbs" Dollar
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:10:05 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Ship mission/design question

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          Self <sdollar>
To:            Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Subject:       Re: Ship mission/design question
Reply-to:      sdollar@goodnet.com
Date:          Fri, 11 Oct 1996 07:21:41 -0800

On 10 Oct 96 at 11:26, Bruce Johnson spewed:

>  How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
> low passage) one way, and bulk materials back? (It's an end of the

>  I thought about using modularized containers, but that means you're
> deadheading one or the other type of container each trip. As I
> understand it, low berths take up a fair amount of room, and so
> can't just be 'folded up' and out of the way when the bulk stuff is
> loaded.

>  If no one comes up with a good answer, I'll just make the ship half
>  
> low berths and half bulk container, and assume the economics work
> out somehow ;) (NOT that I want to get dragged into an 'economics of
> starships' rockthrowing contest again)

I don't see how you could avoid deadheading modular compartments, 1
way or the other or carrying a half empty hold...

Yuck, kind of a nasty dilemma...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Friday, 11 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 538

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Ship mission/design question
         2. Re: Spires Reply
         3. Re: RC Worlds: Spires (Long)
         4. Re: Transplanted Hominids
         5. Hit Locations fot MT et al.
         6. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!) 
         7. Re:  Problems with Starship Economics (long)
         8. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         9. re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
        10. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)
        11. Re: Ship mission/design question
        12. RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        13. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        14. Re: Hop, skip, jump
        15. Re: too close for 1G drive? (was hop skip jump)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:02:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Ship mission/design question

Chris Cox wrote:
> 
>>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>"How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
>>low passage) one way, and bulk materials back? (It's an end of the line
>>type world, so you cant just go on with each type of ship to a further
>>destination)"
> 
>    If I was a free trader I would only haul which ever was the most
>profitable and make the return trip empty, but only if I could make a
>profit and if there were not any more attractive routes at hand.
>    If there is no profit to be made shipping the Living Cargo for a
>trader, then party needing to have the Living Cargo shipped may have to
>purchase the low berths themselves and pay to have them sent as freight 
>to the destination world with the Living Cargo.  Then they would have  
>to pay to have the low berths shipped back empty for use with the next 
>shipment of Living Cargo.

True, quite true.  Ship specialization in on or the other medium would 
definitely work well.  Alternatively your idea of modular cargo holds 
also works to an extent.  (eg. Mamoth Class Freighter, Ships of the 
French Arm)  The only problem is eventually someone has to transport 
those containers back from whence they came which would require one of 
two things.  Either A) the containers rot on world B untill they can be 
refilled and returned to world A, or B) the containers are eventaully 
transported in one massive shipment back to world A.

Either way it requires specialized transport.  I think though that a 
modular vessel is the way to go.  Look at all the container's that are 
shipped through the worlds ports, dumped on trains or loaded onto trucks. 
 These things are semi-trailer sized containers that are never opened and 
re-packed to accomidate a different mode of transport, they are simply 
plopped onto the next transport mode and shipped off pronto.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:10:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Spires Reply

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
>Derek Stanley wrote:
>>Okay time for me to rant again.  I hate ranting but unfortunately I've
>>never seen anything that would indicate that Spires was ever colonized
>>by the Rule of Man.  Or anything else, worlds colonized during anytime
>>period are usually mentioned quite proudly in their background.  I feel
>>from the limited information present and a number of key lines that
>>Spiri are a minor race seeded by the ancients 300k ago.
> 
>Well I think they would mention something like the Spiri being a minor
>race. Also they don't mention in POT, when any of the other major
>worlds were settled.
>Anyway, we have had this discussion before, and I think we can agree to
>disagree here.

Agreed, I say tomato and you say, well what ever it is you say.  I'm a 
great beleive in reading into things.  
 
>>I never imagined Spires smelling like a garbage dump, but okay.  I 
>>always though it was more along the line of an airborne virus that the 
>>local populace was totally immune to.  Harded to detect and far more 
>>incidious.
>>I like the idea of obsidian tools, pop bottle bottems and china plates
>>also make extremely nice projectile points, I took a course in 
>>university.

For anyone who's really interested, old fashioned toilet bowls also work 
extremely well.
 
>Well Brian (my player) and I thought Spires sounded like a relativity 
>new planet, mainly because of the lack of fossil fuels.  So we came up 
>with the volcanoes, and the obsidian.  And since Spires had a tainted
>atmosphere. it seemed to be logical to make it all connected. I threw
>in the smell at the last moment, as I was writing it up.

Obsidian is only formed under very specific conditions.  Exteremly thin 
runny lave has to solidify at an extremely fast rate.  There are huge 
deposits of it in northern BC.  Mount Edzidza (sp?).  It's really nice 
stuff to work with, and speaking from personal experience it'll go 
striaght through your hand like it's not even there.  OUCH!!!  Sharper 
that surgical steel.
 
>>       To a colonly put in place by and advanced civilization surface
>>deposits of useful metals are nice but you know how to dig a mine.

>I thought that they meant that there were no metals in the crust of the
>planet, so you would have to dig huge mile long tunnels to get to any
>metals that are in the upper mantle.

I beleive what they mean are actual surface deposits.  This could also be 
an indicator of a relatively recent genesis for the planet.  The minerals 
are formed underground usually as a result of an intrusive volcanic 
batholith.  As the Batholith cools the surrounding rocks are transformed 
due to heat and pressure.  As time passes the overlaying rocks are 
erroded away exposing the minerals to the surface.
 
> I'd love to hear any more comments you or anyone else has. (Hint Hint Hint) :)
 
Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:52:37 -0700
Subject: Re: RC Worlds: Spires (Long)

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:

> Government:
>  Spires is governed by the Guilds, the Guilds were set up millenia ago,
>as a way to regulated trade.  Since then they have grown in power and in
>scope. They now regulate almost all aspects of life.  The Guilds have 
>grown into a sizable, bureaucracy.  It can take several months for news 
>and information to travel from one side of the planet to the other, 
>because of this the Guilds are slow to react to unexpected problems.

I've often wondered if the change in governement between the 1130 reading 
and the 1200 reading was the result of something introduced by Imperial 
social scientists trapped on the planet during the collapse.

>   To help solve this problem, every 10 years, the finest men and women
>come to Yuko, the capital of Spires, There they compete in the Contest 
>of Champions.   The Contest of Champions is a series of races,
>athletic competitions, and mental puzzles.  The winner is made Archon, 
>or supreme ruler of Spires.  The Archon is the nominal head of the 
>Guilds, but has little to do with day to day business, but when a 
>decision needs to be made, instead of forming a committee, the Archon 
>decides.  He is kept up to date on issues, by a council of advisors.  
>The council is made up of the other top contestants in the Contest.  The 
>Archons from previous years wander the planet as roving problem solvers.

This is pretty cool.  I like the senate like mentality of the place, 
where people serve the people out of loyalty rather than the ability to 
collect a nice fat penison after 8 years.  I like the wondering Archon, 
very cool idea.

I have to ask though,  YUKO?????  Why Yuko?  Sounds terribly Japanese.
 
> Culture:
>       Most Spiri are very spiritual, and spiritual matters are given
>considerable thought.  All Spiri are given a basic education.  This
>education usually lasts 5 years. It concentrates on teaching students 
>basic mathematics, and how to read and write.  A small amount of history 
>and rhetoric are also taught.  The ability to think for oneself is 
>instilled in all children at an early age.  The education starts at age 
>5, by the time the students turn 10, they are needed to work in the 
>fields.

Again I like this.  Very Celtic in its feel.  I've often thought that the 
Spiri were a cross between the ancient Greeks (government and 
philosophy), the ancient Celts (art, social equality, and mysticism) and 
the Indians of the NorthWest Coast (art, legend and material technology). 

I also beleive that the Spiri possess their own unique script and 
language, completely unrelated to anything else in the human sphere.
 
>   The population of Spiri lives in many small villages, and a few large
>cities of several hundred thousand. Agriculture is the primary industry 
>of the villages. Each of the small villages shares a common religious or
>spiritual belief.  Religion on Spires is very sectarian, when an
>irreconcilable disagreement over a spiritual matter arise, the solution,
>usually involves the minority leaving the community and setting up a new
>village somewhere else.  Off world anthropologists suggest that this 
>also helps alleviate population pressure.

Agriculture and cottage industry, very important.  I've often thought 
that religion on Spires is an extremely personal thing, there is some 
overlaying spiritual dogma, ie. the spirits of nature exist all around us 
blah blah blah, but beyond that people are free to worship as they see 
fit and few would consider interfering in that right.  Religion and 
Higher Learning occurred our of a number of Spiritual centers which were 
centerally located between a number of outlaying villages.  These 
villages were inturn responsible for the maintenance of the Spiritual 
Center and for providing a certain amount of food for the teachers.  In 
return the knowledge was there for all to access with no restrictions.
 
>    The cities are much more metropolitan, they began as small towns on
>important trade routes.  Thousands of people eventually came to live and 
>to prosper as merchants.  The mixing of people of many different faiths,
>created some conflict, but for the most part, the Spiri are nonviolent 
>when it comes to Spiritual matters.  To help insure that disagreements 
>remain non-violent, the Guild has prohibited the carrying of weapons.

I imaging city life as being something like Athens during the golden age 
of greece.  Large forums, theatres, open air markets, very cosmopolitan. 
 Ships sailing in from all over the place etc a melting pot of Spires
 
>     In the capital of Yuko, the Guilds have formed a center for higher
>learning, the Academy of Higher Thought.  Here the best and the 
>brightest Spiri are educated. Children who have excelled in the basic 
>education are sent to the Academy to learn more.  The Academy develops 
>both the mind and the body.  Students are taught philosophy, history, 
>logic, mathematics and what science the Spiri know. The body is 
>developed through athletics and through the martial arts. Many Contest 
>winners have received an education here.

In my Spires, my character D'zvyadya A'yanshi Kayla, there's a whole 
story behind that name.  Was educated at the University of Gwynmark, you 
can see my Celtic bent there.  Universities would be hugely popular on 
Spires and entrance, though open to all, would be granted with a 
preference to the most tallented and then to whom ever wanted.

More to follow....

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:29:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Transplanted Hominids

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> 
>> Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk> said:
>>>Most exasperating implausibility: the various minor human races were
>>>allegedly transplanted by the Ancients 300K years ago, which means the
>>>source genus was Homo Habilis.  Nevertheless, all transplanted peoples
>>>eventually evolved into essentially identical Homo Sapiens.  I love 
>>>the idea of transplanted hominids, but wish it had been more 
>>>scientifically thought out.
> 
>Actually, this would be more like _Homo_erectus_.  Besdies, habilis
>is somewhat dubious as a species as I understand it.  300,000 years
>is also kinda close to neandertal (_H.sapiens.neandethalensis_) and
>archaic _Homo_sapiens_ (what's a 100,000 years or so in the scheme of 
>things :-) 
>It might be neat to have a more detailled explanation of how the
>various humans in traveller relate to one another.

Actaully there are a number of Archaic Homo Sapiens finds in South (?) 
maybe it's East, Africa that have pushed the Homo Sapiens date back to 
roughly the 150-200k limit.  But 300k were, according to current theory, 
still looking at Homo Erectus.  For a nearly complete fossil look for 
Richard Leaky's find in 1984, KNM-WT 15000, its about 80%.  He's a pretty 
rugged beastie, heavy brow ridges, large muscle attachments etc.  He 
might pass as a line backer.  But he'd be a big son of a buck.

Oddly enough current theory is, and this is to a large extent bourne out 
by the fossil evidence, that Modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens appeared 
independently in both Southern Asia and Africa.  There is no evidence of 
contact between the two populations and certian skelital traits evident 
in fossils found a Zhoukoudian and Hexian are still present in asian 
populations to this day.
 
>Neandertal isn't very different from us now---and not very different
>than what you'd expect from humans on a high gravity world (more
>robust).  It would be cool to come up with some reasonable
>differences.  Starting at a point near archaic sapiens, or late
>erectus, what would we get on the different transplanted worlds?

Neanderthal's are faily close to us, thats for sure.  Neanderthals appear 
to be a local, European/Mid-East, adaptation to climatic contidions 
during the pliestocene.  Again, large frame but he'd definately pass as 
one of us in a suit and tie on a bus.  

Current speculation is that the Neanderthal were bread into extinction.  
By cross breading with Homo Sapiens Sapiens their more rugged 
characteristics were eventually lost.
 
>The "desired" (by grandfather) characteristics would be:  improved
>bipedalism, intelligence.  Hmm, what else.  Completing the bipedal
>transition (hell, we haven't finished that yet :-) would make
>erectus more like us.  Same with brain capacity.  It might be neat
>to point out the facial differences of the different races of man in
>traveller.  As well as differences due to home world conditions
>(especially on the transplants who had these new forces acting on
>them).

It is interesting to note that on average, Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis 
had a larger brain case than we do.  Approximately 5-10% larger.  Makes 
you think doesn't it?  For those guys out their, run your finger down 
your forehead and to the notch in your nose, feel that bump right about 
your eyebrows?  That's what's left of your browridge, most women have 
next to none.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:23:06 BST
Subject: Hit Locations fot MT et al.

<wades through tons of mail from the list>

Right, I haven't finished sifting through the last lot of mail yet so sorry 
if this has been mentioned.

I was sorting through all my CT/MT/TNE books and found in MT Journal 4 a hit 
location system for MT .  It seems worth a look and perhaps could be of use 
to many people out there if you can track a copy down.

<dives back to where he left off>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen? It's been 15 hours. We are gonna grow old and die in here. 
Stephen? Stephen, there's a Martian war machine parked outside. 
They'd like to have a word with you about the common cold." 
- -- Vance Hendricks to Dr. Franklin in Babylon 5:"Infection"

Steven Ward
E-Mail: Steven.Ward@Brunel.ac.uk 
World wide web: http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/
British Isles Traveller Support page maintainer.
http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/bits.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:30:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!) 

On 11 Oct 96 at 10:42, Earl Wajenberg spewed:

> By the way, what do these different human races LOOK like?  Just
> within the Solomani, we have variations of pigment, nose shape,
> epicanthic folds, fullness of lip, hair texture, and general
> hairiness. If these various races are in danger of being separate
> species, it seems likely some of them have clearly visible physical
> differences. ("That's funny. You don't look Vilani).

As (FOUL WORD WARNING: PARENTS PLEASE ESCORT SMALL 
CHILDREN FROM THE ROOM) "Canon" states it they're pretty 
interfertile, probably towards the higher end of your scale...but 
doubtful they are all 1's, unless the Ancients genetically 
manipulated, which is quite probable actually.  "Canon" states that 
the Solomani are unique in the number of different racial types, and 
that the other major and minor human races were selected as a pretty 
homogenous lot, i.e. similar range of skin color, hair color, eye 
color, etc...  Of course, 300,000 years of evolution, breeding, 
adaptation to new environments might widen or change this range, but 
this is how previous published works look at it.

Nice post Earl, you stated the possibilities quite well...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:40:19 -0700
Subject: Re:  Problems with Starship Economics (long)

>Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au> writes

>See the attachment (long) for details

(followed by - shudder in horror - a base64 encoded microsoft word document.)

Would it kill you to have posted this in ascii? 

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:59:42 +0000
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-10-10 14:57:42 EDT, you wrote
> << c. Did he actually discover it, or take credit for it (a la Roman emperors
> and relatives
>  taking credit for the work of several legions or Thomas A. Edison)

> Or did he simply figure out how some ancient artifact worked?

That's one angle I never thought of.
I have also always wondered whether the Vilani (their world overrun with Ancients 
warmachines) actually discovered jump drive or not. Did they discover an already built 
one and copy it (a la Geonee). Same goes for the Zhodani. There were Droyne and 
chirpers on their world. Maybe they were taught. Geez, that leaves only Solomani as a 
major human race

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:50:49 -0700
Subject: re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

Though I have often had disagreements with Leonard (aka Shadow) on a variety
of technical matters, I do agree with him here; changing the way jump works - 
reducing travel time for high-jump engines - is the sort of thing that would
really change the economics and/or military aspects of Traveller, and
lots of other things - if a Far Trader can make Jump-1 in half the time
a Free Trader can, Free Traders are obsolete; Merchant ships in general
should have much higher jump engines than all the stock designs. So should
military ships - carry a J6 engine even if you only have the fuel for J3 and
your fleet is twice as fast, strategically. In-system microjumps (even if they
use a full J-1 of fuel) become the only way to travel insystem (and imagine
how useful they are tactically - how about missiles that use microjumps 
to hit their targets? Expensive, but deadly...) You end up having to make
other assumptions (changing the 100-diamter rule, weird rules about jumping
towards masses...) to make it work, which have other consquences...

Obviously everyone is free to play the game the way they want to; the point
is that you should think about the consequences of the way you change rules.

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:12:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)

Scott Ripley wrote:
> This claim might develop from the fact that chimpanzees and homo sap. differ
> in ONE chromosome pair.  I can easily dig up the genetics research that
> supports this.  But they are not interfertile.
> In addition, if Homo Erectus was distrubuted throught the galaxy...and ALL
> developed into modern humans, it would be amazing...but we only recognize
> the ones that DID develop into humans as that...many minor races might be
> Homo Er. with a left turn in a strange environment.

Sort of explains the picture of the Suerrat in Bogs and Dogs

------------------------------

From: Derek Dees <fenris@solon.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:10:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Ship mission/design question

Well, another option would be that the folks doing the shipping could
provide custom modular containers that are shipped one way full on 
small ships that can provide needed monitoring. Then, when empty, the
containers are shipped back en-masse on bulk/subsizided container ships.

This way, the small specialist crews would have care of the valuable
cargo, but the contianers themselves are treated differently. Then, 
use the smaller crews to transport luxury or small volume high value
cargo back the other way.


Derek
fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris/

Homebrew - When it's a hobby, it's not a problem!


> 
> Chris Cox wrote:
> > 
> >>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > 
> >>"How would you handle a trade route that is mostly living cargo (in
> >>low passage) one way, and bulk materials back? (It's an end of the line
> >>type world, so you cant just go on with each type of ship to a further
> >>destination)"
> > 
> >    If I was a free trader I would only haul which ever was the most
> >profitable and make the return trip empty, but only if I could make a
> >profit and if there were not any more attractive routes at hand.
> >    If there is no profit to be made shipping the Living Cargo for a
> >trader, then party needing to have the Living Cargo shipped may have to
> >purchase the low berths themselves and pay to have them sent as freight 
> >to the destination world with the Living Cargo.  Then they would have  
> >to pay to have the low berths shipped back empty for use with the next 
> >shipment of Living Cargo.
> 
> True, quite true.  Ship specialization in on or the other medium would 
> definitely work well.  Alternatively your idea of modular cargo holds 
> also works to an extent.  (eg. Mamoth Class Freighter, Ships of the 
> French Arm)  The only problem is eventually someone has to transport 
> those containers back from whence they came which would require one of 
> two things.  Either A) the containers rot on world B untill they can be 
> refilled and returned to world A, or B) the containers are eventaully 
> transported in one massive shipment back to world A.
> 
> Either way it requires specialized transport.  I think though that a 
> modular vessel is the way to go.  Look at all the container's that are 
> shipped through the worlds ports, dumped on trains or loaded onto trucks. 
>  These things are semi-trailer sized containers that are never opened and 
> re-packed to accomidate a different mode of transport, they are simply 
> plopped onto the next transport mode and shipped off pronto.
> 
> Derek Stanley
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:23:00 -0700
Subject: RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Amused to Death spewed:
> All of this is moot (not the organization, the point) as the 
> Lanthanum grid was a DGP idea (and a damn good one at that) 
> so it is going out with the proverbial bathwater

Who's throwing out the bathwater? Just because Traveller has a new
publisher doesn't mean I'm going to change the way *MY* game works, or
invalidate background *I've* already established. I am going to use a
lot of the excellent background given by DGP. Especially the Alien
supplements which do a good job of explaining Vilani, Vargr, Aslan and
Solomani culture and motivations.

I'm sure that T4 will give me more background and stuff to chew on (If I
ever get it... still waiting), if it condradicts stuff in *MY* game, I
just won't use it. Call me a rebel if you will.

Since I don't think they'll be overhauling basic assumptions about Jump
travel time (1 week) and distance (max. 6 parsec), etc. I can make up
whatever pseudo-science explaination I want for MY game. I encourage
everyone else to do the same.

Glenn "Don't shoot ME out of YOUR canon" Hoppe



------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:28:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

John Lambert posited:
> The concept can be extended to interstellar travel. Although we have drives that
> can move ships through normal space, there are no drives that work in jump
> space. What the ship does in performing a jump is to establish the n-dimensional
> "tunnel" between two points on the surface of our spherical three dimensional
> space. The ship then slides through the frictionless "tunnel" until it comes out
> on the other side, one week later. (The fact that this trip takes a week could
> be used to derive a lot of information about the structure of the n-dimensional
> universe.) 

I like this. No messy explanation required. However, it still fails to
address the concept of a variable 1 week travel time, and it is terribly
short on allowing for additional drama. (It's a week, that's it --
nothing can be done about it, sit around watch the holovid for the
duration of the jump, ho-hum)

Glenn "who likes more action in jumpspace" Hoppe


------------------------------

From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:39:10 +0100
Subject: Re: Hop, skip, jump

another way things change if jump time can be cut down to 1 day for a jump 1:

political binding.

part of the nature of the Imperium, and the other Trav societies, 
hinges on the long delays for turn around of messages. If it takes a 
week to send a message to your overlord, and a week to get one back, 
then you have to have a lot of devolved responsibility to keep on top 
of things. 

If, otoh, you can send a message J1 in a J5 ship (expensive, but this 
is Government Business) and get a reply in 3 days rather than 2 weeks, 
then the a world can exercise considerably more control over its 
neighbours - specifically its immediate neighbours. 

This means that tight-clusters of J1 worlds emerge, with close 
political linkage, and more hierarchy, more captive governments. This 
makes a notcieable change to the Trav star map! 

News also travels faster. The fastest current news (including Imperial 
Proclamations) travels by express-boat - J4 (or J5) in 1 week -- but 
even with a fast squelch transmission of compressed data to a waiting 
express boat to jump on, it then takes a week per jump to radiate from 
there to each immediate neighbour in a cluster off the jump route. 

In the 20% of J5 scenario, news can travel 5xJ1 in 1 week, covering 5 
systems directly and many more indirectly. Those proclamations leap 
across the local space. OK so they still take as long to make the leap 
across 10, 15, 10 parsecs - but that's my point -- the local space can 
get news and orders so much more quickly than in mainstream classic 
that this change must upturn the conventional order in favour of local 
regions. 

Part of the fast repsonse includes the jump back time to move ships to 
defend a system against incomers. Systems *must* now have fast 
couriers that can make a quick J1 to get help in the form of other J5 
ships, ratherthan the current mix of ships.

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) argues persuasively for the 
related case where documented Trav naval techniques rely on the 
surprise of all jumps taking equal time so couriers can't leap ahead 
to the next system (only leap further). 

It remains true that we have no *good* explanation of *why* all jumps 
take a week (but plent of waving hands....). I don't mind that lack 
too much [ok - it really *bugs* some people]. What I don't want is a 
change in that background as a raminficationof an unneeded change to 
rules. 



- --
- --------------------------------------------------+
- -- Neil Taylor              neil@uk.gdscorp.com --|
- -- Graphic Data Systems Ltd,                    --| 
- -- Wellington House, East Rd, Cambridge CB1 1BH --|
- --------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:51:06 +0100
Subject: Re: too close for 1G drive? (was hop skip jump)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>ps. Someone else was talking about having to be 200 stellar diameters
>out to jump, and arriving 2 stellar diameters out. For the sun that
>means you have to be 1.856 AU out, and you arrive .01856 AU out. That's
>one *hell* of a sunburn, folks! (4 *megawatts* per square meter of hull!)
>There's also the not so trivial matter of the sun exerting 1.75 g on
>your ship at that distance. What? You only have a 1 g drive. Too bad...

Sorry Leonard - that's only if you try to run straight out from the Sun...

Current rocket drives are nowhere near that powerful. Ok the Big 
rockets for earth launch can punch higher for take off but that's only 
till they gain orbital speed. Once up, they use lower thrust drives... 
but they use them for prolonged periods to gain orbital velocity 
*around* their primary (earth, moon, sun...) As They increase OV, 
their orbit enlarges, they gradually move further from the primary - 
and so escape. 

A low-G trav ship can do the same. You accellerate horizontally until 
you are moving fast enough. (From a planet, an airframe ship has it 
very easy - look at modern airliners - they take off from a 1G planet 
at well below 1G, because they get lift from the airfoils. The limit 
for most is powert (air resistance) and height (running out of 
oxygen). A tarv ship with an airfram can easily climb up to high thin 
air, then (still using the airframe for support) ramp up to orbital 
velocity and beyond. It just takes longer than zipping straight up 
with a showy tail!

In space, you don't use an airfram, you get no support as there's no 
air! BUT, you start out moving round the planet, round the sun 
whatever, rather than falling into it. Yo accellarate along your orbit 
and gain speed, and moveto a higher orbit that way. Even a HEPLAR ship 
with low endurance (20 hrs+) can generate much much more trust than 
any current earth ship has ever done, and so easily escape from the 
sun. 


- --
- --------------------------------------------------+
- -- Neil Taylor              neil@uk.gdscorp.com --|
- -- Graphic Data Systems Ltd,                    --| 
- -- Wellington House, East Rd, Cambridge CB1 1BH --|
- --------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #538
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 11 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 539

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #520
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #520
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #512
         4. IG News
         5. Re: News From Imperium Games
         6. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         7. Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions
         8. Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #537
         9. More skill thoughts
        10. Re: Apptitude Method
        11. Survey Results|  Probability of Success
        12. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        13. Re: Ship design question
        14. Re: Milieu 0
        15. Re: Imperial History
        16. Re: Attribute + Skill
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #537
        18. IG FAQ
        19. Re: News From Imperium Games

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 18:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #520

In-Reply-To: <9610091829.AA15189@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Yep. I've found the #1 rule in any competition whether it's chess,
> tennis, or starship combat is: Never Do What Your Opponent Expects
> You To Do. >>

Works for me. I once beat a much better chess player 3 times in a row - 
he kept trying to figure out what my strategy was, but I didn't *have* 
one!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 18:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #520

In-Reply-To: <9610091829.AA15189@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Yep. I've found the #1 rule in any competition whether it's chess,
> tennis, or starship combat is: Never Do What Your Opponent Expects
> You To Do. >>

Works for me. I once beat a much better chess player 3 times in a row - 
he kept trying to figure out what my strategy was, but I didn't *have* 
one!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #512

In-Reply-To: <9610081159.AA11904@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Flame-proof-vesty-bunny (Religion)

Reminds me of my friend who used to invite in Mormons, sit them down
opposite his array of occult books, offer them tea, coffee or alcohol, 
then spend an hour ripping their religion to shreds and mentioning, in 
passing, the pentacle inscribed on his floor under the carpet. Never 
seen people move so fast for the door... :-) (hope this doesn't offend 
any Mormons on the group. I'm an agnostic, so I keep an open mind but 
I'm more likely to believe in flying saucers than the 'average' person's 
view of God). >>

Same here, but if there *is* a God, I'm pretty sure He's got a sense of 
humour (hey, anyone who's seen me naked *knows* He does...)

<< P.S. Boy is this stuff off-track, but it's fun! >>

Maybe I should mention the Traveller game where someone tried to summon 
a demon...and succeeded!

<< P.P.S. When's someone going to suggest running Traveller demos for 
Sunday Schools? What better way to introduce children to the GOOD side 
of RPGs.  >>

Traveller should be a pretty safe game for that - no demons, magic, 
strange gods, etc...just good, clean, wholesome, mindless violence...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:14:45 -0500
Subject: IG News

Joe,
  Good news!  A couple of quick questions:

1.  The Starships book.  Has it been shipped to the distributors?

2. The Equipment Catalog.  Now that it's been submitted, could the list get
a 'sneak peek'?  Things like, topics covered, a smattering of material
listed, that sort of stuff.

3.  T4 main book V2.  Will the 2nd printing contain more than just
corrected data? (corrections should include new artwork for the small arms.
:-<)


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Derek Dees <fenris@solon.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:24:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

Joe, 

Thanks for the news on IG. Glad to hear they have such a vocal voice.:)

Is there any news on the Starships Book or the JTAS? I'm willing to 
wait for quality (although only until my disposable income runs out),

The refocus on quality and market is good to hear. Do you know if 
they will be relasing a "revised" T4 basic book?

> 
> The News from IG                                       October 11, 1996
> 
- --snip--
> 
> -Joe

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:26:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On Fri, 11 Oct 96, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) said:

>On 10/10/96 at 11:10 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>Great. The Sun is size 432. That means you have to get out to 520 light
>>*hours* to make a safe jump. Or only 517 light hours to make a "dangerous"
>>one.
>>Want to try that one again?

>Leonard, it seems you are having a bad day. <g>
>The Sun is size *8* in Traveller terms, isn't it? 

The *Earth* is size 8.  El Sol is just a tad bit larger...  (Unless you're a
Flat-Earther, then the Sun is 32 miles across, just like the Moon...) 


+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:26:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk> inquired:

>The MT Referee's Companion shows the guys standing on the refuelling scout
>ship in light BLUE uniforms. I thought the NAVY was BLUE. So what colour are
>the scouts, and army? Someone mentioned some months back about the sunbursts
>for the navy being blue and the army being black?

Navy: Yellow Sunburst
Army: Black SB
Marines: Maroon SB
Scouts: Red SB

While my copy of Grand Survey/Census died years ago, I seem to remember that
on the covers the insignia looked like it might have been blue/black on
white, with the red SB.

The uniform itself doesn't necessarily have to match the branch color.  Vacc
Suits will probably be brightly colored to aid in recognition during EVA.
At TL 14-15, the Scout uniform becomes the tailored Vacc Suit.

Just as a side note, in my 3rd Imperium, dress uniforms are as follows:

Navy: Black jacket, white trousers, white kepi, black low-quarter shoes.

Army: Khaki Jacket, black trousers, black kepi, black, spit-shined boots.

Marines: Dark red/Maroon jacket, white trousers, maroon beret, black boots.



+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:28:29 -0700
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #537

>The parent organization
Who is this mysterious parent organization?

>Expect to see more color plates
I think - though I may be wrong - that if you were to poll a hundred TML
recipients and ask them what the single thing they most wanted to see in 
future Traveller products was, "more color plates" would not appear.

>far fewer errors
This, on the other hand...better editing, both at the proofreading level
and more fundamental levels, will be nice to see. 

>everything will be top-quality and on-time, every time.

Two goals that are often contradictory.

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:59:50 -0500
Subject: More skill thoughts

While I was doing my stat + (skl * app) tables, I thought of another
possible solution.  The character's skill * app determines the to hit
number, and a combination of stat and difficulty determine the number of die
rolled.

foex, Herbert has a skill in level of 2 in Pilot and a Mechanical apptitude
of 5 (using this method I think 5 would be about average).  So his to Hit
number is 10.  He is going to attempt to take off the surface of a planet in
somewhat nasty weather, a difficult task(2.5D).  His Dexterity is 3, however
which makes the difficult task that much harder, so he adds 1 whole die and
rolls 3.5D instead.

Does this make sense?


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:59:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Apptitude Method

Well, I've been playing with this a bit, and I have some numbers....

I tried four different methods to come up with an attribute:
  Method A: (2D3)-1                       Roll    Col A   Col B
  Method B: ((2D6)/2)-1 (Min 1)             2       1       1
  Method C: 2D6 on Column A ------>         3       1       1
  Method D: 1.5D6 on Column B ---->         4       1       2
                                            5       2       2
Then I tested the percents for each         6       2       2
outcome:                                    7       2       2
                                            8       2       3
App --A--   --B--   --C--   --D--           9       2       4
 1  11.11%  41.67%  19.44%  16.67%         10       3
 2  22.22%  30.56%  66.67%  66.67%         11       3
 3  33.33%  19.44%  13.89%  11.11%         12       4
 4  22.22%   8.33%   2.78%   6.66%
 5  11.11%

Personally, I like the two Tables best, although I can't decide which I
prefer.  I think the 2D6.

This would give the following To Hit numbers

Stat Skill App To Hit | Stat Skill App To Hit | Stat Skill App To Hit | 
  7    2    2    11   |   7    2    1     9   |   7    2    4    15   | 
  3    2    2     7   |   3    2    1     5   |   3    2    4    11   | 
 11    2    2    15   |  11    2    1    13   |  11    2    4    19   | 
  7    1    2     9   |   7    1    1     8   |   7    1    4    11   | 
  3    1    2     5   |   3    1    1     4   |   3    1    4     7   |
 11    1    2    13   |  11    1    1    12   |  11    1    4    15   |
  7    4    2    15   |   7    4    1    11   |   7    4    4    23   |
  3    4    2    11   |   3    4    1     7   |   3    4    4    19   |
 11    4    2    19   |  11    4    1    15   |  11    4    4    27   |

I don't know if these numbers help, but they sure look nice. :)

Seriously though, I think that we are on the right track with the skill
times apptitude thing.  Since each skill would be assigned to a particular
apptitude, the combination could be recorded on the Char sheet and then,
depending on how you want to play the game either add the attribute in, or
leave it off to be added later.

Comments?


------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:01:09 -0500
Subject: Survey Results|  Probability of Success

Here are the results of the little survey I conducted...if you can call
7 people a survey. <g> IAC, I averaged the numbers and here are the
results.

Task                  Average            Highly
Type         Novice   Skills    Skilled  Skilled   Expert
- ------------+----------------------------------------------
Easy        | 73        95        98       100       100
Average     | 53        78        91        96        99
Difficult   | 33        57        76        86        91
Formidable  | 21        38        55        71        82
Staggering  | 11        23        37        52        65
Impossible  |  7        13        25        33        44

We had a couple of people that went *very* high on Impossible tasks and
that pulled the average up several points.  The other 5 surveys were
lower, and in a similar range approx (5, 10, 15, 20, 25) for Impossible
tasks..you can *really* see the difference at the Highly Skilled and
Expert level.

Eris


------------------------------

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:07:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >Leonard, it seems you are having a bad day. <g>
> >The Sun is size *8* in Traveller terms, isn't it?
> 
> The *Earth* is size 8.  El Sol is just a tad bit larger...  

Appears *I* was having a bad day too! <g>  Yep, I blew that one.


Eris


------------------------------

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:21:35 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Ship design question

	Leonard, Thanks for your 'cattle car' suggestion, that's what'll work
in this instance. It was kind of a D'oh! moment for me...we get so caught up
in High-Middle-Low passage as the ONLY way to travel, I forgot to think
clearly about what is necessary here. Life support only has to be of the
minimal variety for this sort of journey, so low passage was overkill. 

	This does bring up the economic rock throwing type of question: what 
other modes of interstellar travel exist?

	High-Middle-Low passage is clearly based on the old steamship 
First-Second-Steerage class of travel, probably for the similarity of the 
travel mode..you get on for a week or three at a time.

	But surely this isn't the only way things are handled in the
Imperium, there have got to be "Carnival Cruise Lines" and "Greyhhound
Busses" and "Trump Shuttle" service between Sylea and Ordun, for instance,
just to demonstrate the range of services available (and the corresponding
costs). For instance, a Greyhound type of travel service may be a large
container ship with bunks, a community 'fresher, and bad cafeteria food (or
a McDonalds franchise or two) to keep you fed for the week or two you're 
travelling.  This is certainly less service than even middle passage,
but not as risky as low passage. 

	If the Imperium is going to be such a trade based empire, a lot of 
that trade is going to be in moving people from place to place.

	As someone else said...discuss among yourselves ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0

Man, these digests come so fast that I can barely keep up...
2 days and 20 digests later...

> From: FarFuture@aol.com
> Subject: Milieu 0 Outline
> 
> MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium

I'd like to see the period from about -50 to 50 covered so that people
have an idea of how things changed on "the fateful day" - 0/0.

Also, adventure hooks are great, but whole adventures are even better - 
I liked Hard Times, which combined sourcebook material with a series
of adventures to explore the material presented.

> FIRST SURVEY

Well, of course, I'd like to see this and Milieu 0 rolled into one, but 
if there's lots of good material in 'First Survey', I won't mind buying
it separately. I'd like to see key worlds detailed and not just inside
the Sylean Federation - I'd like to see maore detail surrounding Vland
and other important planets.

Also, there should be system generation rules that produce systems
consistent with Year 0 - no 50% Type A starports and such...
 
> History
>     1. Antecedents

The end of the Rule of Man would be interesting to know more about.
Did Solomani military rule leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth,
so to speak?

>         a. The last decades of the Long Night
>         b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium
>     2. Syleas Rise
>         a. Economic Pressures

Sylea's social structures and how they affected expansion
>         b. 
>     3. Establishment of the Third Imperium
>     4. Interactions and Conflicts
>        a. Short Wars
>        b. Diplomatic Campaigns
>        c. Contact Campaigns
>        d. Secret Agent Operations

I've got it! The PCs are agents who resign from Sylea's
intelligence service in disgust with it, only to be kidnapped
and taken to a strange, isolated place called "The Planet".
The leaders 'f "the Planet" go to nefarious lengths
to squeeze information out of the PCs.

Oh, and no one has a name, only a number...

> The Expansion Process
>     1. Exploration
>     2. Contact / ReContact
>     3. Trade Overtures
>     4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)
> 
> The First Wave
>     1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
> border of the Third Imperium.

Maps of the border, changing over time. Like those films from
history class showing arrows pointing all over Europe where
the Romans/Nazis/other big military power went where, when and with
how much stuff.

<dry, monotone voice-over>
In year 30, Cleon pushed past Vland into Corridor where
much resistance from various tiny Vargr states was encountered.
The Potentate of Vargrzzr fell first, in 31, followed by the 
Grrvvrd of Frrddrzzrn in 32, then all of the client states of
Vurgrddon, before the pressure from the Zurvvrdr coreward became
too great...
<students snore in the background...>

>     2. Opportunities
>         a. Free Traders
>        b. Scouts
>        c. Mercenaries
>        d. Academics
>         e. The Man Who Would Be King
>     3. Problems
> 	a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
> 	b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 

Cool! Turf wars with the Bureaux!

> 
> Structure of Organizations
> 1. Structure of the Sylean Federation
> 2. Structure of the Third Imperium
> 3. Structure of the Vilani Homeworlds
> 4. The MegaCorporations
> 5. Local Companies
> 6. AAB Repositories


This sort of data would be great! It would be
interesting to see how a hands-on federation like Sylea
would evolve into the lazzie-faire (sp??) setup of the 3I.


> 
> Library Data
> 1. Personalities
> 		a. Cleon (Emperor)
> 		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to > adventurers)
> 		c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu > Labs)

Or did he? Hm. I just hope _everything_ isn't stolen from the
Ancients!

> 		d. Frank Repzinski XVII

(It's been mentioned before, but) Who??
> 		
> 2. Places
> 	a. Terra
> 	b. Vland
> 	c. The Great Rift
> 	d. Sylea
> 	e. Antares
> 3. Things
> 		a. AAB (Vilani repository of all knowledge)
> 		b. Fusion Plus
> 		c. The Warrant of Restoration (the document that establishes the Third > Imperium)
> 		d. Scout Cruiser

How about the much touted Sylean small fighter? If it's what gives Sylea
its edge, show us!
> 		
> 4. Historical Data

Hopefully a timeline will be included, as well as a few things
mentioned in passing but never fully explained. (Hooks!)

> 5. Maps
> a. Sector Map of the Core Sector (allows some exploration without buying
> First Survey)
> b. Sample World

Perhaps forms as well, to give refs an outline to fill in when detailing
their own worlds. Sure beats plain paper.
> 
> Rules
> 	1. Diplomatic Interactions
> 	2. Player generic Imperials
> 	3. Playing Vilani

Something along the lines of DGP's old Aliens modules would be good,
although perhaps not as in depth. Revised aging tables for Vilani 
would be nice. How about info on some minor human races too?
What about the race the Vilani discovered during their sub-c
spaceflight days? And the Genoee?

ANyways, those are my suggestions/ideas. I'm looking
forward to seeing the Milieu 0 book in print! (Almost
as much as I'm hoping to get my T4 hardback!!)

Ethan

------------------------------

From: Keith Thoms <kthoms@nooster.nosc.mil>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial History

I had figured that 300kyears was just a realistic number (what, almost 20
years ago?) to whoever first imagined up the Ancients.  So if you want to
justify "canon" based in today's scientific terms, then I'd like to go
with Paul's somewhat romatic reasoning:

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Paul Kestner wrote:

>   What futher proof is needed to show that Grandfather and/or his children
> were masterful genetic engineers ?   Most of the transplanted peoples 
> became,
> as you say, Homo Sapiens dispite envionmental conditions and influences.

- -----------
Keith Thoms                                 Is it a rule, that there is an 
wind@nooster.nosc.mil                             exception to every rule?



------------------------------

From: Robert Gatliff <rgatliff@io.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:55:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Attribute + Skill

I would have no problem with the concept that characteristics (attributes)
affect how fast skills are learned, and how high skills peak.

Yet another proposal:
  Skills start at a "base" TN (target number) of 6;   

  Everytime your skill level is increased, you have three attemps
  to increase your Skill TN.  If the primary attribute plus a roll
  of two dice exceed your current Skill TN, then it is increased by one.
  
  Skill-0  -> TN = 6
  Skill-1  -> TN = 6 + the 3 attempts to increase
  Skill-2  -> TN = 6 + the 6 attempts to increase
  Skill-3  -> TN = 6 + the 9 attempts to increase
  Skill-4  -> TN = 6 + the 12 attempts to increase

  If you don't like all the dice rolling, a table could created that gives
  the average TN for Skill Level/Attribute combination.  This would make it
  easier to bulk convert existing character to a newer system.

  Assumption:  Novice=6, Average=9, Skilled=12, Highly Skilled=15, Expert=18.
  Skill TN max out at attribute+12, so an average character would max out
  around expert, after years of training.  An exceptional character would
  reach Expert quicker, and could peak in the "Super Geek".

  If you prefer heroic characters, increase the number of attempts per level.

  


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:48:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #537

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >The parent organization
> Who is this mysterious parent organization?

Dunno.  It's a company in CA.


> >Expect to see more color plates
> I think - though I may be wrong - that if you were to poll a hundred TML
> recipients and ask them what the single thing they most wanted to see in 
> future Traveller products was, "more color plates" would not appear.

Probably so.  But the goal is to get NEW players while retaining the 
old.  New players like pretty pictures.  So you give them pretty 
pictures. :)


> >far fewer errors
> This, on the other hand...better editing, both at the proofreading level
> and more fundamental levels, will be nice to see. 

Yup.


> >everything will be top-quality and on-time, every time.
> 
> Two goals that are often contradictory.

Time will tell whether that will hold true this time.  We'll know by 
December....


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:51:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG FAQ

Imperium Games FAQ				      Friday, Oct 11, 1996

I've received quite a few questions on some topics, so I thought I'd try
to cover it all once, here. :)  


Q.  When will [insert product here] be shipped?

A.  The correct schedule for products to be shipped (that is, when they
will begin to be shipped to dealers and those who ordered directly through
IG) is:

        Starships                       November 1
        JTAS                            November 1
        Citizens of the Imperium        November 15
        Aliens Archive                  November 15
        Central Supply Catalog          December 1
        Milieu 0                        December 15
        First Survey                    December 15


Q.  When is the web site going to be updated?  How about weekly updates?

A.  The folks at IG have been on extended vacation for the last couple of
weeks.  Starting next week, the web site will be updated _at least_ once
per week.


Q.  When is my T4 hardback going to arrive? 

A.  Foreign orders will take about a month longer than other orders to 
the continental U.S.  In addition, some orders within the U.S. were
shipped Priority Mail, while others were shipped 4th Class.  The method
of shipping depended on the date the order was placed.  4th Class mail
takes quite a bit longer to arrive than Priority, so please be patient
and you should receive it shortly.


Q.  I really don't like [insert a rule from T4 here] . . .

A.  If you don't like something about any IG product, feel free to change
it!  The folks at IG realize they aren't gods, and are therefore unable
to create the perfect system for everyone.  Their philosophy is that they
are producing _guidelines_, not laws carved in stone.


Q.  My local game store doesn't carry Traveller products.  (Or, "There
aren't any Traveller players in my area.")

A.  Ask the owner of your friendly local game store if you can run a 
demo of the Traveller game.  If s/he will let you do so, some ideas 
for what to do include:
        1)  Run through some _extremely simple_ scenarios with 
            prospective customers.  These might be simply hitting
            a target - give them a character, a situation, a little
            build up, and a number to roll.  Act out the consequences.
        2)  Get a few members of your gaming group together, and play
            at the store, if they'll allow it and have an area where
            customers can stop by and watch you play.
        3)  Your own ideas

        The point is, demand drives supply.  If you would like to see a 
supply of Traveller products at your local game store, create the demand
and let the game store owner know that demand exists.  If you can stir up 
enough demand among the gaming community in your area, the game store 
owner will almost certainly begin carrying lots of Traveller products.
        Plus, you you may end up making some new gaming friends! :)



More to follow, as time and information become available. :)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:55:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Derek Dees wrote:

> Is there any news on the Starships Book or the JTAS? I'm willing to 
> wait for quality (although only until my disposable income runs out),

See my FAQ post for the answer to this question.


> The refocus on quality and market is good to hear. Do you know if 
> they will be relasing a "revised" T4 basic book?

There will be a revised T4 basic book.  I edited a copy of T4 and sent it 
to IG, at Ken Whitman's request, for just this purpose.  The revised book 
isn't slated to have any changes to the systems, though (ie, no re-write 
of the task system).  It will merely be version 1.1 - a bug fix.  Animal 
attack target numbers, grammatical errors and typos removed, missing 
tables inserted, etc. etc.

(Note to self: add this to the FAQ :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Friday, 11 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 540

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Problems with Starship Economics (long)
         2. RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. Update #2: Odds & Ends Auction.
         4. Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)
         5. Re: POOF indeed
         6. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)
         7. Re: Apptitude Method
         8. Re: [T96#525] Genetic Divergence
         9. Governing in Traveller
        10. Authors sought
        11. Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)
        12. Pretty Pictures
        13. Trade & Commerce
        14. Re: POOF indeed
        15. Re: News From Imperium Games
        16. Re: Pretty Pictures
        17. Re: POOF!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:28:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Economics (long)

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Phillip McGregor wrote:

> While writing an article on what you get in a High Passage (and Mid
> Passage) Cabin, I did some quick checking on Starship economics - and,
> guess what? The costs of running a starship and the traditional 1000 Cr
> per ton cost of shipping cargo do *not* work!
> 

(apologies if I send the attachment back %$&*#@ mailer)

This has *always* been the case with the smaller Traveller starships.  I
can remember my incredulity when I discovered, after picking up the CT
book *Merchant Prince* that a standard ship mortgage could *only* be paid
off through speculative buying.

To top this idea off, I think the published materials underestimate the
day to day costs of running a starship.  The following expenses are not
usually included as I recall (disclaimer: all published materials are at
home);

Food and drink for passengers and crew
Convoy Escort Fees
Tariffs, Duties, Taxes, and other government fees (avoided when smuggling)
Brokerage fees
Delivery charges
Loading/unloading charges (or, perhaps, heavy equipment rental)
Furniture, curtains, linens, little bars of soap, complimentary towels,
etc etc for passenger and crew staterooms
Plates, silverware, condiments, finger bowls, napkins, dishwashing liquid,
plumbing fixtures (where do they keep the drinking water?), all the stuff
found in kitchens and dining rooms
Oxygen, Nitrogen, Other chemicals for air or waste processing, Other
consumables besides the fuel itself, hookups while docked, septic tank
pumping, waste removal.
Insurance, Delivery bonds, Lawyers' fees, registration fees, inspection
fees, bank fees, ATM fees, etc. 

There's quite a bit to this starship economics thing that doesn't seem to
show up.

On the other hand, I thinkthat a huge profit should be possible taking
high demand materials to the right worlds.  More than is represented in
most rules systems I have seen.  

On the other other hand (I'm a hiver, did'nt I tell you?) this kind of
stuff can get in the way of Role Playing.

On the other other other hand (I've still got two to go after this) I have
used these types of methods to create the incentive for money making in
the past (especially when the ship in question gets impounded for
non-payment of Fee X).

I may have a need for this detail in the near future, if I do something
I'll try to post it.

Pete


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 16:27:25 -0500
Subject: RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On 10/11/96 at 10:23 AM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:

>Who's throwing out the bathwater? Just because Traveller has a new
>publisher doesn't mean I'm going to change the way *MY* game works, or
>invalidate background *I've* already established. 

Excellent point!  This is a game, after all, not a holy writ.  How each of
us decides to run *our* games is our, and our players, business.

>Since I don't think they'll be overhauling basic assumptions about Jump
>travel time (1 week) and distance (max. 6 parsec), etc. I can make up
>whatever pseudo-science explaination I want for MY game. I encourage
>everyone else to do the same.

So do I. I've run across *many* good ideas on the lists, from the GDW, IG
and 3rd party books, and from private conversations. However, very few of
these ideas will make there way into my games unchanged.  <g> 

I *enjoy* hearing ideas, speculations, different ways of doing things.  I
*don't* enjoy people trying to smother this free
expression of ideas with calls to any sort of "canon."

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Update #2: Odds & Ends Auction.

 
 Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
 - $10   34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu
 
 Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
 - $15   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
 Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
 - $15   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
 The Flaming Eye
 - $15   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
 Traveller Adventure
 - $6    PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com
 
 Alien Module #8: Darrians
 - $15   jeest5+@pitt.edu
 
 Challenge Magazine #25
 - $5    lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
  
 Traveller Chronicle Magazine #9
 - $6    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
 2300AD - S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans
 - $5    lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
 
 Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
 Laserburn Sci. Fi. Combat Rules
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
 New Additions:
 
 White Dwarf Magazine #13 - "Suggested additions to Traveller, Part 1"
 - $2    douglas@point.com
 
 White Dwarf Magazine #16 - "Suggested  additions to Traveller, Part 4"
 - $2    douglas@point.com

 White Dwarf Magazine #17 - "Sable Rose Affair" (Trav. adv.)
 - $2    douglas@point.com

 White Dwarf Magazine #28 - "On Target" (Rules addition), "Sorry" (Trav. adv.)
 - $2    douglas@point.com

 Voyages SF Magazine #11 
 (Mint condition)
 
 Voyages SF Magazine #13 - "Exercise" (Trav. fiction)
 (Mint condition)        - "Katlin C. Buchannon" (Trav. starship/deckplans)                      
                         - "Sanity In Space" (Rules addition)
 
 Different Worlds Magazine #23 - "Terraforming, Part 2" (Rules addition)
 
 Gameplay Magazine #5
 (Good condition - some cover wear)
 
 Gameplay Magazine #7
 (Good condition - some cover wear)
 
 2300AD - Kafer Dawn
 GDW
 
 Tales of the Concordat #2: "Voyage of the Planetslayer"
 Jefferson Swycaffer
 
 Tales of the Concordat #3: "Revolt and Rebirth"
 Jefferson Swycaffer
 
 Planet in Peril
 O'Neill & Mohan
 
 Sniper! - Special forces
 SPI
 

------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:45:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
<snippage>
> 
> I was wondering if there any resources which talked about any of the
> following:
> 
> languages

<more snips>

Greetings,
Somewhere out there on the Net I was able to find a Traveller random 
word generator for the following languages - Aslan, Droyne, Vargr, 
Vilani, & Zhodani.  Maybe one of our savants can help with a URL?

"Ensign" John

_______________________________________________________________________"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:46:45 GMT
Subject: Re: POOF indeed

On Oct 09, 1996 20:02:46, 'Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>' wrote: 
 
>> Bruce Johnson said: 
>> > " Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!" 
>> > 
>> > POOF 
>> > 
>> > "Hey! Where'd Joe go?" 
>>  
>> Hah!  I'll bet Joe Walsh isn't gonna like _this_ roleplay example.   
> 
>[snicker]...actually, I've grown so used to the "Joe Blow," "Average  
>Joe," etc. terms that I usually don't even think about it any more. :) 
> 
>Joe's of the world, Unite in Protest against the defamation of our name! 
 
If you think "Joe"s have it rough, just think about 
the things the name "John" is associated with      :) 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:46:50 GMT
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)

On Oct 11, 1996 10:44:43, 'Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>' wrote: 
 
 
>In addition, if Homo Erectus was distrubuted throught the galaxy...and ALL

>developed into modern humans, it would be amazing...but we only recognize 
>the ones that DID develop into humans as that...many minor races might be 
>Homo Er. with a left turn in a strange environment. 
 
I think 300K yrs ago was past H. Erectus' time. By that time  
H. Sapiens Neandertalis and early modern H. Sapiens Sapiens 
were in vouge. 
 
Or am I completely mixed up? 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 17:00:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Apptitude Method

On 10/11/96 at 12:59 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>Well, I've been playing with this a bit, and I have some numbers....

- -- 

>I tried four different methods to come up with an attribute:
>  Method A: (2D3)-1                       Roll    Col A   Col B
>  Method B: ((2D6)/2)-1 (Min 1)             2       1       1
>  Method C: 2D6 on Column A ------>         3       1       1
>  Method D: 1.5D6 on Column B ---->         4       1       2
>                                            5       2       2 
>Then I tested the percents for each         6       2       2
 outcome:                                    7       2       2
>                                            8       2       3 
>App --A--  --B--   --C--   --D--            9       2       4
> 1  11.11%  41.67%  mistake 16.67%         10       3
> 2  22.22%  30.56%  66.67%  66.67%         11       3
> 3  33.33%  19.44%  13.89%  11.11%         12       4
> 4  22.22%   8.33%   2.78%   6.66%
> 5  11.11%
 EV  3.0      2.14   
 
Col A gives these probabilities:  1   16.67%   
                                  2   66.67%
                                  3   13.89%
                                  4    2.78%
         And an Expected Value of 2.02

Col B gives these probabilities:  1   16.67%
                                  2   66.67%
                                  3   11.11%
                                  4    5.56%
         And an Expected Value of 2.06
         
Another method is roll a pool of points and distribute. 

Rule:  Each Aptitude begins with a base of 1, roll 2d6 and
distribute over the 7 Aptitudes with the limitation that no Aptitude
may exceed 4.  This give the player some control over the
personality of character they want to play.
                                                             
<snipped the numbers>

>Seriously though, I think that we are on the right track with the skill
>times apptitude thing.  Since each skill would be assigned to a particular
>apptitude, the combination could be recorded on the Char sheet and then,
>depending on how you want to play the game either add the attribute in, or
>leave it off to be added later.

I like it too.  The next task is to assign an Aptitude to some
Skills, generate some characters and see how it works out.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 18:22:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#525] Genetic Divergence

 ::>- - this raises an interesting point: are there *non-intelligent* human races
 ::>out
 ::>there in Known Space? Is it possible that a planet of *homo sapiens* could have

T::>drifted far enough that they would become essentially animal in intelligence,
 ::>ie
 ::>just another primate?
 ::>- - for a nice look at a number of hominid races (mostly separate *species* ie
 ::>mutually infertile!) after a few *millions* of years of parallel evolution, see

T::>Larry Niven's *Ringworld* and *Ringworld Engineers*.

 Hmmm...  Interesting possibilities for diplomacy...  "Do you do
 rishathra?"

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Wench: What you use to turn the head of a dolt.

------------------------------

From: Lance Robert Blyth <lrb0003@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:44:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Governing in Traveller

Question:  How does the Imperium (pick your milieu) govern?  I have used
two possibilities in campaigns:

#1:  Hands-off:  The empire assigns a consul, ambassador, resident, etc.,
to each planet.  As long as the planetary government pays its taxes (a
whole other thread) and doesn't sacrifice, enslave, or eat sophonts, they
are left alone to rule or misrule as they see fit.  

#2  Hands-on:  The empire creates a number of noble families (say 1 per
two population numbers at first) and divides government up among them.
The nobles are loyal to the empire, which created them, and the factional
infighting among them is reflected in the Govermental type.  

Comments?

Lance R. Blyth, Marine Captain, two terms



------------------------------

From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:00:41 -0400
Subject: Authors sought

  Greetings list lurkers. I wanted to drop a quick note to let you all know
that we are working on several product lines that may be of interest to you.
More to the point, we are actively seeking authors for books to be published
in these lines. The lines are listed below.

  We have an agreement with Imperium Games to produce licensed Traveller 4th
Edition products. We are looking for authors, primarily for adventure
anthologies (each adventure being 8,000-10,000 words). We are planning to
release the first of our T4 books next spring to be followed by additional
books through the year.

  We also publish a line of adventure books for use with the Hero System,
called Heroic Adventures. Each volume consists of several adventures for a
specific genre (HA1 was for Champions, HA2 for Dark Champions, HA3 will be
for Fantasy Hero, etc.). Adventures should be 8,000 to 10,000 words, and we
are looking for additional Champions and Dark Champions adventures.

  Lastly, we are working on a new roleplaying game set in feudal Japan,
called Sengoku: Chambara Roleplaying in Feudal Japan. Sengoku will use the
new Fuzion game system (by Hero Games and R. Talsorian), expanded with a
number of genre-specific rules. We have a number of supplements planned which
are, as of yet, not assigned an author. If you have an interest in the genre,
drop us a line.

  Propsective authors should download our current submission guidelines from
our web page at http://members.aol.com/goldrushg/index.htm.

  Thanks for your time.

  Mark Arsenault
  Gold Rush Games

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:17:59 +1000
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

From: David Blustein <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
 
> On 11 Oct 96 at 9:00, Phillip McGregor wrote:
> 
> >Starship Economics - Some Problems
> >
> >Costs & Profits
> >
> >What are the actual costs involved in starship operations? Well, we
> >know that life support costs are 2000 Cr per stateroom per two
> >weeks (and the components - presumably including food - take no
> >space on the ship!), and that staterooms can be at least double
> >occupancy, and some sources imply that "hot bunking" can be used,
> >which implies that up to four people can be supported on a "per
> >stateroom" basis. This means that actual Life Support costs
> >(depending on what they actually represent) are 250-500 Cr per
> >person per week.
> 
> T4, Page 97: (Starship Economics/Life Support)
> 
> "...double occupancy... ...requires twice the normal cost."

Oops again, this wasn't (AFAIR) stated explicitly in any of the previous
iterations of Traveller! It *does* make things potentially a lot worse,
but all the figures I used were worked out on the basis of single
occupancy anyway. It just reduces the utility of double occupancy!


> This makes the situation even worse than you describe. :-)

> Other Comments: (which can be tossed in the bit sink if useless :-)
> 
> In CT & MT, High & Middle passengers get one Large Stateroom each
> for paying Cr10,000 or Cr8,000. If the intent of T4 is the same, then
> each passenger stateroom's profit is either Cr8,000 or Cr6,000 per
> two weeks, depending on whether 1 High, 1 Middle, or 0 passengers
> occupy it.
> 
> The other effect is that Life Support costs Cr2,000 per crew member
> per two weeks regardless of what sort of quarters they've been
> assigned. Two Small Staterooms take up the same tonnage of one Large
> Stateroom (and cost less to construct).

Erm, isn't that 2000 Cr *per fortnight* ... or 1000 credits per week per
crewmember?

I really think that we *have* to assume that the comment about Life
Support costs being *double* for two occupying the one statement is
*wrong* if there is to be any hope at all of making the starship economics
system work. At worst I would suggest that it should be no more than +50%
(or +1000 Cr per fortnight, 500 Cr per week).

Then we have to assume (I feel) that whatever Life Support actually
represents *cannot* be included in operating costs for crew quarters,
assume that it is, in fact, part of their salary package (like "room &
board"). Otherwise it opens a whole can of worms!
 
> I always thought that Double Occupancy _meant_ hot bunking, so one
> Large Stateroom would accommodate One Passenger, One Crew, or Two
> Crew and two Small Staterooms would accommodate Zero Passengers, Two
> Crew, or Four Crew (all in 4 tons of ship tonnage).

Actually, the reason I was doing the "research" was because I was writing
down some thoughts on exactly what sort of layout and facilities you could
expect in a standard Cabin when in use for High or Middle Passage ... and
I have some ideas of layout as a result. Suffice it to say that, if you
assume foldaway beds (like those in Pullman cabins on RRs), then there's
plenty of room for two!

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:27:34 -0400
Subject: Pretty Pictures

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

"Probably so.  But the goal is to get NEW players while retaining the 
old.  New players like pretty pictures.  So you give them pretty 
pictures. :)"

Well, as a old player I have to say that I also like pretty pictures.  If
IG, or anyone, were to produce Traveller products without any pictures I
don't know if I would buy it.  So I don't see including pretty pictures in
Traveller products as catering to only new players but also as catering to
some of us older ones as well.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:24:52 -0500
Subject: Trade & Commerce

Hmmm... Took a closer look at the Trade and Commerce rules after 
reading some of last month's TML traffic.

Should the Market Price Table, on page 171, have rows for 
Non-agricultural (Na) and Non-industrial (Ni) worlds?

I can't seem to find them. The T4 Market Price Table almost, but not 
quite, matches the Market Price Tables from CT:B7 and MT.

Anybody?

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:49:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: POOF indeed

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, John H Bogan Jr wrote:

> >Joe's of the world, Unite in Protest against the defamation of our name! 
>  
> If you think "Joe"s have it rough, just think about 
> the things the name "John" is associated with      :) 

:)  Yup.  And the Janes (Jane Doe, Plain Jane), and the Richards, etc.
I guess we're not alone in this. :)


- -Average Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: "Dan" <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:46:25 -0400
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

When are we going to have the hardcover? (more precisely, when am I going
to have mine).  Still waiting.  I never got a reply to my first two e-mails
to you, I don't expect one but I am still an optimist.  I am happy to see
that the company is devoting so much energy in designing products.  I hope
they devote as much energy into delivering them.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: News From Imperium Games
> Date: 11 oct. 1996 10:12
> 
> The News from IG                                       October 11, 1996
> 
> 
> The folks at IG have been on vacation for a couple of weeks, as you may 
> already know.  But they'll be back in the harness next week, and their
web
> site will return to its usual weekly update schedule.  
> 
> In addition, IG is undergoing some changes.  They're off-loading the
> day-to-day business processes onto their parent organization, which will
> allow them to focus their energies entirely upon creating Traveller
> gaming products.  This renewed focus includes, among other things, my 
> role as IG's representative to the TML.  It is hoped that I will be 
> able to provide timely information to TML participants, while freeing 
> the folks at IG from spending so much time talking on the phone and  
> writing email to the hundreds of people who call and/or write every 
> week.  They don't want their fans to be left out in the cold, but they
> also don't want to have to stop making products! :)
> 
> The parent organization has given IG a new focus on producing the 
> highest quality product at a competitive price.  Expect to see more 
> color plates, more custom artwork (no more generic stuff), top-quality 
> printing, far fewer errors, and all of the other markings of premium 
> gaming products.  At the same time, the parent organization wants 
> Traveller to sell extremely well.  Therefore, the prices will be held 
> down even as the costs of production rise.  
> 
> The idea is to get Traveller into the hands of as many people as 
> possible by making it the best RPG available anywhere, without pricing 
> themselves out of the market.  This is good news for us.  It means that
the
> investors are in for the long haul.  They're willing to sacrifice
short-term
> profits for long-term viability.  Needless to say, that's a pretty
unusual 
> attitude in today's business environment.
> 
> These changes are beginning now, but they will continue to be implemented

> in stages over the next two or three months.  By the end of December, 
> everything should be in place.  From that time (at the latest),
everything 
> will be top-quality and on-time, every time.
> 
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
> 
> 
> -Joe
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>            The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:56:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Pretty Pictures

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Chris Cox wrote:

> Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> 
> "Probably so.  But the goal is to get NEW players while retaining the 
> old.  New players like pretty pictures.  So you give them pretty 
> pictures. :)"
> 
> Well, as a old player I have to say that I also like pretty pictures.  If
> IG, or anyone, were to produce Traveller products without any pictures I
> don't know if I would buy it.  So I don't see including pretty pictures in
> Traveller products as catering to only new players but also as catering to
> some of us older ones as well.

Yup, I had forgotten about the firestorm over the pictures, when T4 first 
came out.  Now I do remember, though - lots of old-timers [G] care about 
the graphics in Traveller...

Thanks for pointing that out.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:00:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: POOF!

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 
> Actually, Joe, my gaming worlds tend to be very strange places.
> 
> 	I used to try and give all the NPC's distinctive names, but I gave 
> that up when my players started tripping me up...'Augustus didn't say 
> that! Romero did...I have it here in my notes. Nyah Nyah." Yes they did 
> add the Nyah Nyah part. ;-) so for the spear carriers I started calling 
> all the Red shirts (ST joke) Joe, all bartenders are named Ed , and 
> security guards and annoying officious bureaucrats are named Screegle.

hehehe.  Pretty cool.  Did I ever tell you about the multibillionaire NPC 
whose name was "Don Whatever," because I got irritated that the players 
kept asking for last names for every last, minor NPC? :)


> 	So the story about the the Ancient artifact is probably being told 
> to Ed in a spaceport bar, with Joe2 looking on in awe, while Screegle 
> is sitting there clucking his tongue, knowing that Joe obviously was 
> violating IAASHA (Imperial Ancient Artifact Safety and Health 
> Administration) Directive 324.8955746 Sub 34.23 Para 476 which _clearly_ 
> states:
> 
> 	"No one named Joe may touch Ancient artifacts with (A) devices
> resembling or constructed of small woody plant stems or branches, or (B)
> other analogues therof constructed of various materials inclusive of metal,
> polymer, composite materials, crystal and quasicrystal (both natural and
> manufactured), or natural materials. (A) and (B) are not to be construed as
> exhaustive lists of possible violating devices, and Field Agents of the
> 54.9967-X Grade or higher have full authority to declare other devices as
> necessary for the enforcement of this directive."

LOL!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 12 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 541

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         2. Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions
         3. Re: News From Imperium Games
         4. Re: [T96#504] Unobtainium and General Products
         5. IISS Uniforms
         6. Re: Destination Spires
         7. Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions
         8. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller
         9. Re: IG FAQ
        10. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        11. Re: IG News
        12. Re: IG FAQ
        13. "The IG Answer Men" [grin]
        14. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        15. Helloooo!!  Anyone out there
        16. Re: Governing in Traveller
        17. Re: Governing in Traveller
        18. DGP Announcement
        19. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        20. Re: Destination Spires
        21. Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:17:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Who's throwing out the bathwater? Just because Traveller has a new
> publisher doesn't mean I'm going to change the way *MY* game works, or
> invalidate background *I've* already established. 

Yaay!  Glenn, you've got the right attitude.  The published material is 
nothing more than ONE way of doing things.  It can be a source of 
inspiration.  And, there's nothing wrong with using the published 
material as-is.  But it should never be a shackle.  


> I'm sure that T4 will give me more background and stuff to chew on (If I
> ever get it... still waiting), if it condradicts stuff in *MY* game, I
> just won't use it. Call me a rebel if you will.

:)


> Since I don't think they'll be overhauling basic assumptions about Jump
> travel time (1 week) and distance (max. 6 parsec), etc. I can make up
> whatever pseudo-science explaination I want for MY game. I encourage
> everyone else to do the same.
> 
> Glenn "Don't shoot ME out of YOUR canon" Hoppe

Hehe...Is anyone compiling a list of "canon" jokes? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:23:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to do a little background research on the Scout Service, both
> from the Milieu 0 viewpoint and the Third Imperium (pre Rebellion).
> 
> I've got the various insignia from Scouts and Assassins (Paranoia Press) and
> the World Builder's Handbook (DGP) but I have no indication of the COLOURS
> of the insignia, nor of the standard one-piece uniforms the scouts wore.
 
> For some reason I have the following in mind:
> 
> LIGHT GREY one-piece uniform?
> Badges are BLACK with YELLOW insignia (i.e. the ponii is yellow)?
> The sunburst emblem is yellow on a black background?

I do recall reading that the Scout Sunburst is red while the Imp. Navy
is yellow (gold thread if worn as part of a uniform). Unfortunately, I
can't remember where I read this but it was within the last 3 weeks.
I'll start looking but I'm 85% certain these colors are correct. The
sunburst of the Imperium itself was changed to black by one of the
empresses when she found out a newly "citizenized" minor race couldn't
see these colors.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:27:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Dan wrote:

> When are we going to have the hardcover? (more precisely, when am I going
> to have mine).  Still waiting.  I never got a reply to my first two e-mails
> to you, I don't expect one but I am still an optimist.  I am happy to see

Huh?  I don't recall receiving two emails from you...not even one, until 
now (though your message, above, was posted to the TML).  I must be 
confused. 

Perhaps you sent mail to imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com?

Anyway...


> that the company is devoting so much energy in designing products.  I hope
> they devote as much energy into delivering them.

I posted a FAQ, and the answer to this question was included.  If you 
don't receive that, please let me know and I'll email it to you.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:09:53 PST
Subject: Re: [T96#504] Unobtainium and General Products

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes
>
> [deletia about Niven's Known Space and General Products]
>
> T::>It's *obviously* alien technology. Transparent except where the inside
>  ::>is coated with something, indestructible, and with tantalizing glimpses
>  ::>of alien devices inside.
>
> T::>Many, many possibilities for involving the players.
>
> T::>1. they find it
>  ::>2. somebody else finds it, and hires the players to try to track it
>  ::>   back to where it came from.
>  ::>3. like 2, but they hire the players to help track it (ie the hirer
>  ::>   goes with them)
>  ::>4. Like 2, but it's an imperial agency or a megacorp.
>  ::>5. like 4, but with a representative of the hirer on board, running the
>  ::>   show.
>  ::>6. ???

Your ideas below are interesting, but they all assume a GP number *2*
(or larger!) hull. I was talking about a GP #1 hull which is about the
size of a basketball. :-)

>  8.  (no strange tech visible - except for the hull itself)
>  Upon boarding, no life is found - not even microbial.
>  Examination of the Master's Safe and the computer reveal that
>  it is a quite ordinary Imperial/Sylean Federation-registered
>  ship, with a Jump-2 drive - and indeed it is, except for the
>  unusual hull.  A check of records will reveal that the ship
>  filed a "flight plan" between two planets Jump-1 apart on the
>  Sylean main, both of which are at least seven parsecs away.
>  The ship had been due to arrive at its destination within a
>  couple of days of its being found.

First thing I'd do is check and see if such a ship was known, and where
it supposedly originated. Since *we* can't make such hulls, where the
hell did they get it? And if the records *don't* show such a ship
making a jump between those systems, or if there is one, and it arrived
ok, then we likely have a ship from a parallel universe.

BTW, as long as we are talking about GP#2 hulls, how about having it be
Beowulf Scheaffer and that little ship he was piloting around the
neutron star? Disable the bomb in time and you'll have one *nasty*
combat vessel on your hands.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:44:04 -0700
Subject: IISS Uniforms

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> The MT Referee's Companion shows the guys standing on the refuelling scout
> ship in light BLUE uniforms.

So does the Imperial Encyclopedia by GDW and Travellers' Digest #20 by
DGP.  Given these three "oh-ficial" sources, Andy, I'd say light blue
for the Scout Service should be considered "canon". I'm still hunting
for the  patch colors but my certainty has gone up to 95%.

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:17:26 +1300
Subject: Re: Destination Spires

>  > Spires  E894789-2
>  >           Size: Large : D=12,800km           Atmosphere: Dense Tainted
>  >           Hydrographics: 40%                 Population: 40 million
>  >           Government:Civil Service Bureaucracy  Law Level: High
>  >           Tech Level: 2 (Circa 1600)            Star port:  Frontier
>  >
>  > World Description:

This post on the world called Spires is the best thing I have seen and 
read on this digest for the past  four or five weeks at least. I would 
really like to see more of this type of thing. I know we used to get a 
lot of RICE papers posted earlier in the year so there are people out 
there with plenty of ideas. The less creative of us (like myself) would 
love to read them.

Cheers.


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:46:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

David Blustein wrote:
> 
> On 11 Oct 96 at 10:50, Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> >Can someone please point me to something which confirms or denies the above
> >(it's fairly urgent!!!)?
> 
> MT Players' Manual, Page 27:
> 
> Original colors: black background w/yellow sunburst
> IISS: red sunburst
> Imperial Navy: yellow
> Imperial Army: black
> Imperial Marines: maroon
> 
> Cheers,
>      David

Confirmed! Way to go, David!

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:50:47 -0700
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> 
> Daid Joseph Smart writes:
> 
>  "Ah ha! Another D100 fan. Happen to have a RuneQuest background there,
>   Earl?"
> 
> Not me, no, but Jim Burrows, the co-author of our in-house game mechanics,
> might have. <snip> I helped some with the mechanics, but more with the
> skill set and background.  We call it FuRPiG.

Now you've got my curiosity up. I'd be interested in taking a look at
this, if possible?

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:06:56 -0800
Subject: Re: IG FAQ

Joe,

>I've received quite a few questions on some topics, so I thought I'd try
>to cover it all once, here. :)  

Thanks Joe, and, I'm quite sure everyone will have more questions to add to
this FAQ.

>A.  The correct schedule for products to be shipped (that is, when they
>will begin to be shipped to dealers and those who ordered directly through
>IG) is:
>
>        Starships                       November 1
>        JTAS                            November 1
>        Citizens of the Imperium        November 15
>        Aliens Archive                  November 15
>        Central Supply Catalog          December 1
>        Milieu 0                        December 15
>        First Survey                    December 15

Wow!  Four products in November, and three in December, this is great!  BTW,
what's the usual delay between shipping date and retail date?

>A.  The folks at IG have been on extended vacation for the last couple of
>weeks.  Starting next week, the web site will be updated _at least_ once
>per week.

Also good news.

>More to follow, as time and information become available. :)

Good to hear.  Thanks Joe, and, also, congratulations!


_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:29:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On 11 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Yup.
> 
> How about adding skill and attribute, with the proviso that the attribute is
> limited to the skill * 2?
> 
> Thus, your Dex 10 Pilot 1 would roll against a target number of 3, while your
> Dex 4 Pilot 6 would roll against 10?

Oooh.  I like that.  It's simple, and effective!

But... (you knew that was coming, didn't you? [G]) ...that makes the 
target numbers awfully low. Anyone with 1 level of skill will be pretty 
much out of luck, whereas under the other Traveller systems (CT, MT, TNE) 
a skill level of 1 gave you a decent chance of succeeding.

I hate to complicate it, but how about using 2 as the base for skilled 
people?   Thus, it would be 2+skill+characteristic(max:skill*2).

Oh, and what about unskilled people?  What do they use as a target 
number?  It'd have to be awfully low...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:34:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG News

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Mark Urbin wrote:

> 1.  The Starships book.  Has it been shipped to the distributors?

No, it hasn't.  :(  The ship date is in the FAQ I posted.


> 2. The Equipment Catalog.  Now that it's been submitted, could the list get
> a 'sneak peek'?  Things like, topics covered, a smattering of material
> listed, that sort of stuff.

Hmmm.  Greg Porter made the small craft design system available to people 
on the GDW-Beta list.  Perhaps someone who has been following that 
discussion more closely than I have will let us know where to get it (I 
recall there was some discussion of putting it on a web site).

As for seeing more...I'll have to ask and get back to you about that.


> 3.  T4 main book V2.  Will the 2nd printing contain more than just
> corrected data? (corrections should include new artwork for the small arms.
> :-<)

As I understand it, the next version of the T4 main book will be more 
like version 1.1 than 2.0.  A bug fix.

I don't know for certain, though, whether there will be 
additional/changed artwork, or additional equipment, etc.  I'll have to 
ask.  I'll let you know.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:42:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG FAQ

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> Wow!  Four products in November, and three in December, this is great!  

Yup, the delay has put IG in a bind.  Pray for no printer delays! :)


> BTW, what's the usual delay between shipping date and retail date?

I don't know.  I'd be happy to ask Ken Whitman, but perhaps one of the 
folks here who has experience in the gaming industry can answer this.  


> Good to hear.  Thanks Joe, and, also, congratulations!

Thanks. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:55:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: "The IG Answer Men" [grin]

Here's an update on how this new communications process is shaping up:

Questions about IG and IG's products should be directed to me, as I've 
previously noted.  If I know the answer, I'll reply right away.  If I 
don't, I'll write it on my big list o' questions for Ken Whitman, get in 
touch with him as soon as possible, and then relay the answer back.

In addition, Guy "Wildstar" Garnett, author of the QSDS system, major 
contributor to the Role-Playing Ship Combat System, and all-around 
gearhead/technical expert has consented to help me out on technical 
questions (which, being a non-gearhead, are way out of my league[G]).  
When such questions come up, I'll forward them to Guy, who will respond 
to both the questioner and me (that way I get an education as well[G]).

So, to sum up:  All questions should go to me (and/or the list, if you 
want - just be sure to make it clear that you want an "official" answer, 
please).  I'll then either answer right away, or get an answer to you by 
referring the question to the appropriate expert.

I think that'll be least confusing, and most efficent for everyone 
involved. 

Oh, and one final note:  My parents are coming here (Illinois) from 
California on Saturday, and will be staying until Wednesday evening.  
Because of this, I'll be a bit less communicative for the next five 
days.  Thereafter, though, I have four days off with no major plans, so 
I'll be able to catch up (if it turns out that there is a backlog over 
that time).  In any event, I do plan to sign on once a day while my 
parents are here...I just won't be able to spend much time online when I 
do. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 22:04:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

On 10/11/96 at 09:29 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> How about adding skill and attribute, with the proviso that the attribute
>> limited to the skill * 2?
 
>> Thus, your Dex 10 Pilot 1 would roll against a target number of 3, while 
>> Dex 4 Pilot 6 would roll against 10?

>Oooh.  I like that.  It's simple, and effective!

>But... (you knew that was coming, didn't you? [G]) ...that makes the 
>target numbers awfully low. Anyone with 1 level of skill will be pretty 
>much out of luck, whereas under the other Traveller systems (CT, MT, TNE) 
>a skill level of 1 gave you a decent chance of succeeding.

I liked it too.  Both Rob's and Leonard's method handle the
Attribute really well, but both give *very* low target numbers.  My
Aptitude idea is going to take time to work up and the numbers it produces
are going to be higher..I'll target them at the 1d, 2d, 3d, 4d, 5d, 6d
range.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:23:58 -0700
Subject: Helloooo!!  Anyone out there

Don't mean to pester but if anyone has any ideas about my JumpSpace theory I
would appreciate some feedback.  I plan on running an adventure soon and
certian events tied to the Theory will occur.  So if any ideas or comments
are out their I would appreciate them.  

By the way Congratulations to Joe Walsh.  Don't worry I don't think theirs
hazing involved in such a position ;)

Other than that I would like to voice my total support of IG with T4.  I've
had the game for three weeks now I am definatly going to love it.  Hopefully
Starships and the Central Supply Catalog will come out soon to follow up on
this.  As far as the typo's I can live with them.  It's not like IG set out
to do it and besides they are trying to get out as much of the errata as
they can.  In addition, as far as the artwork.  Well, some comments have
been made to the different look of various starships and weapons.  For the
starships I would say "SO WHAT!" its not like theirs only one design for
each starcraft.  And as for the weapons I would like to point a few things
out.  The titles listed by each illustration don't mentino specifacly the
model or type being depicted.  So just maybe that tapering 4mm SMG is a 4mm
SMG not the 9mm most seem to assume it is. And that wrist breaking FOIL.
I'm not sure but it looks like to me that the hand gaurd pointing to he
bottom of the page seems to curve.  So if you were to use the foil the one
side would lie in front of your knuckles and the other would curve around
the outside of your wrist (in such a way it would't really interfere).  Just
my thoughts on the various subjects.  

Boy a little rant can go a long ways :)  I mean no disrespect nor do I say
any of this out of anger.  Just another opinion to fuel the discussion. 


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:41:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Governing in Traveller

Lance Robert Blyth wrote:
> 
> Question:  How does the Imperium (pick your milieu) govern?

In my campaigns, the Imperium has always been hands off with a
background presence around Class A/B starports (fly the flag missions if
no base is available).

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:41:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Governing in Traveller

Lance Robert Blyth wrote:
> 
> Question:  How does the Imperium (pick your milieu) govern?

In my campaigns, the Imperium has always been hands off with a
background presence around Class A/B starports (fly the flag missions if
no base is available).

------------------------------

From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:47:46 -0700
Subject: DGP Announcement

 
Dear Traveller Afficionados,
 
I've  noticed some  speculation over  the past  few weeks  on the
mailing lists pertaining to DGP's future role in Traveller, and I
thought you might appreciate an update...
 
DGP has been  in negotiations with the managers  of Traveller for
almost 10 months. Those guys sure are busy.
 
Even though  I'm not as enthusiastic  as I was 10  months ago, it
looks like a deal may be able to be worked out. Keep your fingers
crossed.
 
We are seeking  a renewal of DGP's Traveller  license, so that we
can rerelease  our extensive Traveller archives  in various forms
as  well as  produce brand  new Traveller  works for  your gaming
pleasure. We love  sci-fi, and we look forward  to being involved
in Traveller development once again  and working with Marc Miller
and Imperium Games.
 
Wish us luck!
 
I'll keep you posted.
 
Sincerely (floating somewhere in limbo),
 
    Rodge
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications
 
 
 
P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
absolute favorites?
 
What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
other game supplements?                                        RS
 

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:16:03 +0000
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

(formerly known as Cmdr Hold'Em, I got bored of that name)
Once more I shall step into the breech
My comment about DGP, canon etc. was to establish something...
It is an opinion. It is mine. I am stating it. Nothing more...
Now, what attracted me to Traveller was the detail of the universe. Immense, rich detail.
A string of numbers for a planet and you can make an adventure from that. I didn't need 
to generate thousands of worlds, they were already done. I could just wing it from a 
string of digits. There were aspects of the universe that were described in loving detail 
(spread out but still there) and these provided more threads.Here was a universe of 
adventure, all you had to do was add adventurers, a plot and go. Traveller was a 
consistent, explicable universe. Forgive an nostalgic rant, but I love _that_ universe. I 
don't want a universe where everybody makes their own stats. I can do that on my own. 
I want Traveller for the exquisite background.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 01:58:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Destination Spires

Simon John Harding wrote about the posting of the Spires planet detail:

> This post on the world called Spires is the best thing I have seen and
> read on this digest for the past  four or five weeks at least. I would
> really like to see more of this type of thing. I know we used to get a
> lot of RICE papers posted earlier in the year so there are people out
> there with plenty of ideas. The less creative of us (like myself) would
> love to read them.

Well, the best thing that I've seen on the TML is Glenn Hoppe's notes on jumpspace (but 
that's only because I had a religious experience when I read it) and all of the 
discussion about fixing the task system (which really needs fixing). 

But, I have to agree with Simon on this post as well.  When ever I see character 
generation rules or planet/system details, I always download/print it for my campaing.  
When I see full blown adventures, I'm ecstatic.  

This is like getting game supplements for free, and it is that much less work for me to 
do on my own game.

I'm all for people posting things that directly involve the game--adventures, careers, 
planet or system details.  We should see more of this on the list.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 02:07:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

Andy Lilly wrote:
> I have no indication of the COLOURS of the insignia, nor of the standard one-piece 
> uniforms the scouts wore.

I have always wanted to see an 'official' version of the uniforms for the various 
Imperial service branches as well.  It has been my experience that the uniform depends 
on who is drawing the picture, and I have seen the same artist draw uniforms in 
different ways.  Except for the occasional reference, like in V&V about the Imperial 
naval uniforms being influenced by vilani designs, I have never seen anything definitive 
on this.  

If anybody has a reference to 'cannon' on this particular topic--or just has some home 
grown designs that they would like to share--I'd like to see them too.

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #541
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 12 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 542

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. The 2D Task System
         2. Re: Bureaucrats Etc.
         3. Oh no Joe
         4. Major human races
         5. Activity and more activity!
         6. Ken's Task Fix Update.
         7. Re: Imperium personalities
         8. The Central Supply Catalog?
         9. Re: DGP Announcement
        10. GDW Bet list archives?
        11. Re: The Central Supply Catalog?
        12. Re: Ken's Task Fix Update.
        13. (fwd) DGP favorites
        14. Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?
        15. Dolphins, M. Falcon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 02:14:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The 2D Task System

Here's my stab at "The Perfect Task System". It works pretty well, I think.
It's going to sound a bit odd at first, though...

Do let me know what you think. If you object to any of the details, such as
my handling of the effect of stats and skills, you are free to alter them
as you like if you want to use this system. I've tried many different
versions, and I suggest that the skill effects are correctly balanced here.
But the stat effects are easily customizable according to taste. In fact,
the base target numbers aren't set in stone either.

Do let me know what you think.

Hope you like,

Glenn Grant
- -------------------------------------------------

             The 2D Task System

          A simple task roll system
   compatible with Marc Miller's Traveller (T4)

This system uses a simple roll of two dice to determine task success or
failure. No more rolling a half-dozen dice, no more half-dice, and no more
skewed probabilities in the higher stat+skill levels. Best of all, no pesky
bell curve! And skill levels count for more than stat points. It combines
many of the advantages of a percentile system with the traditional D6-only
system of CT/MT/T4; thus little or no conversion is necessary.

The task roll is two dice in succession, providing a two-digit number
between 11 and 66 (just like the old CT Trade table).

The base target number is determined by the Difficulty Level:

Difficulty Level   Base Target #
   Impossible           00
   Staggering           10
   Formidable           20
   Difficult            30
   Average              40
   Easy                 50
   
The base target number is modified by the PC's skill and then by the
corresponding characteristic.

Each skill level adds 2 to the target number. Thus the skill modifier is
(skill*2). For 0-level skill tests, don't halve the characteristic (as in
T4). Instead, increase the Difficulty by one level (by simply adding 1 to
the first digit of the base target number).

There are two suggested methods for determining the inflence of
characteristics (other methods are possible):

1) Only above-average characteristics have an influence: for each point
above 7, add 1 to the base target number. Thus the stat modifier is:
(stat-7) for stats above 7; otherwise no modifier. (This may be preferable
at low skill levels.)

2) Above- *and* below-average characteristics effect the target number: for
each point below 7, subtract 1 from the target number; for each point
above, add 1. Thus the stat modifier is -(7-stat) for stats below 7, and
+(stat-7) for those above 7.

NOTE, however, that these modifiers are not added in base-10. The modifiers
are counted as steps up or down the 11-66 matrix:

     <----down        up---->
01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 
21, 22, 23, 24 etc...

Example: a character with Skill 3 and Stat 9 is attempting a Difficult
task. The base target is 30. He adds 6 for the skill (3*2=6) + 2 for the
above-average stat (9-7=2), for a modifier of 6. The result is not 38, as
it would be in base-10, because 38 doesn't exist on the matrix. Instead, he
counts 8 steps up the matrix (starting where 30 would be); so the actual
target number is 42-.

If this seems complicated, it won't be after you've tried it a few times.
It soon becomes intuitive and quick. To save time, target numbers modifiers
for major skills can be pre-calculated by the players, before the game
begins. Adjusting for Difficulty Level is a simple matter of altering the
first digit of the target number.

For 0-level skill tests, don't halve the characteristic (as in T4).
Instead, increase the Difficulty by one level (by simply adding 1 to the
first digit of the base target number).

Each increase in skill level represents an equal increase in probability of
success. That is, the probability difference between skill 6 and 7 is the
same as that between 1 and 2. (Only 0-level skills break this pattern.)

Notice that, initially, Impossible tasks really are impossible: you can't
roll less than 11! Only with skill and stat modifiers do these tasks become
barely possible, short of a spectacular success.

As always, a roll of two sixes is a spectacular failure, and two ones is a
spectacular success - even if the target number is below 11. The referee
may also rule that all tasks have a minimum target number of 12 (except for
0-level skill tests).

Here's a chart to showing the resulting targets for an average stat
(ignoring for the moment the Spectacular Result rules and the optional
Minimum Target Number rule):

Stat= 7                      Skill
              0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7  
Easy         42    52    54    56    62    64   Auto  Auto  
Average      32    42    44    46    52    54    56    62
Difficult    22    32    34    36    42    44    46    52
Formidable   12    22    24    26    32    34    36    42
Staggering   02    12    14    16    22    24    26    32 
Impossible   --    02    04    06    12    14    16    22

For each stat point above 7, add 1 to these Target numbers.
For each stat point below 7, subtract 1 (optional).
(OR choose your own method of applying stat mods.
Note how easy it is to extrapolate values for higher or lower stats,
skills, or Difficulty Levels. The progressions are perfectly regular.

Probabilities:
(unless my math is incorrect - never did study Statistics:)
                              Skill
              0     1     2     3     4     5     6    7  
Easy        59.4  70.2  75.6  81.0  86.4  91.8 100.0 100.+  %   
Average     37.8  54.0  59.4  64.8  70.2  75.6  81.0  86.4  %
Difficult   21.6  37.8  43.2  48.6  54.0  59.4  64.8  70.2  %
Formidable   5.4  21.6  27.0  32.4  37.8  43.2  48.6  54.0  %
Staggering   --    5.4   8.1  16.2  21.6  27.0  32.4  37.8  %
Impossible   --    --    --    --    5.4   8.1  16.2  21.6  %

Bump these figures up by 2.7 if Spectacular Success rule is applied.
When the Minimum Target Number rule is applied, the dashes become "5.4"
(except for 0-level skill use).

Compared with T4, in this system certain attempts are harder, and others
easier. But most importantly, PCs with high skills or attributes are not
super-powerful. Characters become more competent with each level, but
Difficult tasks rarely become a complete cake-walk, while Impossible tasks
always pose some danger of failure. For instance, a PC with skill 5 and
stat F, attempting a Difficult task, must roll 64- (91%); it becomes
automatic only if his skill rises to 6; for an Impossible task he needs
56-. Still not a sure thing, even for him.

In general, most DMs given in the rule books will have a lessened effect on
the results, though they will still be important. The referee may wish to
amplify certain DMs, depending on the situation.

Because this system resembles a percentile system, the referee has more
precise control over the target numbers - it's much easier to have a clear
idea of the chances of success, and of how a DM is going to effect them. It
is also easier to understand, for instance, the difference between a
Formidable task and a Staggering one.

If you have trouble adding the modifiers to the base target numbers, you
might want to print out the matrix - perhaps placing it in the margin of
your character sheets, on your combat table page, or referee screen - and
use it to easily count up or down. This method should quickly become
redundant, however, as you become familiar with the system. Skipping from
"26" to "31" as you count up becomes a matter of habit.

- --------------------------------------
Well, that's the system.

I'm beginning to wonder if the percentages aren't too "difficult". Perhaps
I should bump the base numbers up by 10? Thus, Impossible would be 10,
Staggering 20, Formidable 30, etc. (Though this will make things much
easier for PCs with high stats and skills)...

Please do try the system out and let me know if it makes any sense to you.

Thanks,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 02:12:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Bureaucrats Etc.

Rob Prior wrote:
> here are the CT/MT/TNE careers I've converted to T4.  

Question for you.  When you did your conversions, did you just alter the amount of 
skills a character can get in a term (i.e. 1 per year instead of 1 per term), or did you 
make other changes?  

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 02:40:20 -0400
Subject: Oh no Joe

We are gathered here today to bid farewell to the area around and
includeing the home of one Mr J. Walsh. It takes a brave man to paint a
flame Me target on the top of His home. Now We can see if orbital
bombarment really works. 
                                                                           
By By Bro
                                                                         
Best of luck
									     Charlie

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 23:58:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Major human races

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:59:42 +0000, Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net> wrote:

>FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 96-10-10 14:57:42 EDT, you wrote
>> << c. Did he actually discover it, or take credit for it (a la Roman emperors
>> and relatives
>>  taking credit for the work of several legions or Thomas A. Edison)
>
>> Or did he simply figure out how some ancient artifact worked?
>
>That's one angle I never thought of.
>I have also always wondered whether the Vilani (their world overrun with Ancients 
>warmachines) actually discovered jump drive or not. Did they discover an already built 
>one and copy it (a la Geonee). Same goes for the Zhodani. There were Droyne and 
>chirpers on their world. Maybe they were taught. Geez, that leaves only Solomani as a 
>major human race

  I like this a lot!  Has anyone ever brought this up before?  Anyway, I can
GUARANTEE that this theory is very popular in the Solomani Sphere.
Good thinking!

Trent Smith
(Hoping I don't look like a newbie for quoting more than I posted, but it
seemed like the context was necessary for my response to make any sense)


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:24:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Activity and more activity!

   Jeez, I go away fro a couple of days and come back to find not only
that there are hundreds of messages waiting for me, but that I've missed 
out on quite a bit of list "progress".  

1) Congratulations/condolences to Joe Walsh for landing the "Liaison" 
position.  The rationale for the first should be obvious, but I can't help
feel sorry for someone who's obviously going to be flooded with mail.
Thanks for the IG Mini-FAQ, too.

2) Marc Miller's Milieu 0 Outline: Looks like good stuff.  I think that 
the already-posted reactions have pretty much covered all of the
uncertainty-bases that I would have remarked on.  Shipping Dec 15?  That 
probably (I'm just guessing here) won't get it in stores in time for XMas,
but we might see it in time for those big post-XMas shopping bashes (for 
those of us who get cash-gifts).

3) Jump-time Theories:  This thread was dear to me (after all, some of the
posts had my name in the subject line!) and I'm glad to see that it was
peacably resolved in my absence.  I liked Glenn Hoppe's (hope I got that 
right!) proposed rationale/soultion except for one question it raises to
me:  are we to assume that all the major races individually came up with
"cooling" systems that had identical (1-week-lag) efficiency on their own
thousands of years ago, or is it possible that long ago some races were
"better" (ie- faster) than others, but that now the technology has been
spread evenly throughout Charted Space?  And also, how likely is the second
case to be true?  After all, not all the Major Races have achieved TL-15,
even though the (1100-era) Imperium has).
     Andy Lilly posted an illustrative theiry for how jump-space works that
he claimed he uses to explain it to beginners, and, while the theory
itself seems pretty useful, it also seems WAY too abstract and complicated
to be using on beginners, unless they're all mathematicians and/or 
scientists.  I've been playing Traveller for years and even I had to read
through it a couple of times to figure it all out.
     Someone (sorry, lost the post) pointed out some social/economic/military
consequences of the proposed "faster at lower j-levels" theory that seemed
to confirm my lingering suspicions (to very briefly summarize: faster
travel of short distances will lead to tighter small-scale bonding and
(I may be exaggerating here) cause societies to fragment into many small-
to medium-sized "clusters"; also the business with fleet-tactics, and the
fact that it becomes MUCH more profitable to equip your ship (ANY ship) with
as high j-level engines as possible (which doesn't jibe with the 20 years 
worth of pre-gen ships we've seen).  I know that everyone's become friends
and that this is a non-debate now, but I missed the chanc to get my word in
and say that these are the kinds of potential changes that I suspected such
a wanton rule-change would make.

   There were also lots of other messages, but I tended to skim/skip those
so I don't have any comments there.  

Hoping this list will slow back down to a more manageable level,

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 03:31:16 -0700
Subject: Ken's Task Fix Update.

Rob Prior wrote:
> Any math involved should ideally be done before the game on the character
> sheet.  

I agree with this.  I want to keep the math (and the steps necessary for a fix, for that 
matter) to a minimum.  As I sift through all of the ideas posted to TML and play with 
the system, I am finding that some math may be necessary.  If the final result is a 'fix 
formula', then it should be easy to calculate all target numbers for each skill a 
character has one time and record those on the character's sheet.  There shouldn't be 
any math at all to do during game play.

		
	UPDATE TO KEN'S TASK FIX...KEN'S 10 GOALS FOR THE NEW TASK SYSTEM


Since I seem to be nominated the team leader on this task fix project (Uh, er, thanks, 
Joe, I think), here is an update on the progress on the new system.

First, I have outlined some goals for the system.  Joe's questionaire really helped in 
putting these thoughts together.

1.  The new system should be an easy fix to the T4 system--meaning there should be 
minimal steps involved in getting the percentages and target numbers where we need them 
to be.

2.  To accomplish goal #1, above, the new system should either alter the target number 
or alter the difficulty system, but not both.  We are trying to fix the current T4 
system--not write a new one.

3.  My focus is on altering the target number (see goal #2).  I know many of you want to 
see the half die go (as long as we are bothering to fix the system--I'm not that fond of 
the half die either), but I have realized why IG used it in the first place.  It gives a 
more flat curve.  
    
I looked hard at Trent Smith's 
1-die-for-easy-2-dice-for-average-3-dice-for-difficult-4-dice-for...system, but the 
curve is just too steep for our purposes.  I liked this system because the staggering 
and impossible numbers were consistently staggering and impossible to hit, but the other 
side of the curve was the same way.  All of the early target numbers were just too hard 
to make, and a character would not have much of a chance with all of his level one 
skills.

    The half die system of difficulty used in T4 presents a more flat curve--giving the 
lower target numbers a more fair chance of success.  The problem is that we also end up 
with characters being able to make an impossible throw 44% of the time (which, as I 
recall, is what started this mess in the first place).  By altering the target numbers 
and limiting the high end, we should be able to come up with a system that incorporates 
minimal changes and produces the types of percentages that we are looking for.  Paul 
Walker defined the problem early.  It is not the difficulty system--it's the high target 
numbers.

4.  The new system should decrease the importance of abilities but still make them a 
major modifier to a character's skill level.  The "I've got Dex 10 and Pilot-1, and 
you've only got Dex 4 and Pilot-6, so I should pilot the ship" problem should be 
addressed and fixed to give more weight to skills.

5.  Skill level should be the biggest component of a target number.  See the pilot 
example above.

6.  I really like Eris' proposed aptitude system, but upon first glance, I thought that 
it was beyond the scope of what we were trying to do here.  I saw mucho problems 
defining what the various aptitude levels were and how much they should affect success 
on a throw.  Then I figured out an easy way to use them without going to all that 
trouble.  The prototype task system that I am working on now includes character 
aptitude.

7.  The task system should be better than the one used in MT.  This was, in my opinion, 
a very good system, but it could use some improvements.  By 'better', I mean that the 
new task system should be easier to use (as the T4 system was originally designed), 
provide even better probabilities (the MT system really drops after difficult), and make 
character abilities more important to the throw (instead of just providing a +1, +2, or 
+3 DM to the throw).

8.  The impossible difficulty should be watched to see if it provides too great a chance 
of success.  Right now, I'm shooting for an ultimate character (Ability-15, Skill-7, and 
the highest aptitude score) to have a one in three or one in four chance of success with 
the impossible.  Average character ability, skill, and aptitude should provide a 10% or 
less chance of success.

9.  All work-in-progress should be checked against a normal-joe character.  I'm using a 
character from my own campaign as a base line.  I picked this guy because he has a good 
range of low, medium, and high stats and skills.  This guy's stats may be a little low 
(average ability score is 6), but he was generated with the T4 system and is 
representative of a standard Traveller character.

    May I introduce Ulric Birtran Harrisani:
	
			SKILL		LEVEL	GOV CHAR
	-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	STR 7		HISTORY		1	EDU
	DEX 7		LONG BLADE	1	DEX OR STR
	END 3		COMPUTER	4	EDU OR INT
	INT 9		GRAV CRAFT	1	DEX
	EDU 6		TRADER		4	INT OR SOC
	SOC 6		CAROUSING	1	SOC
			LIASON		1	INT OR EDU OR SOC
			BROKER		1	INT OR EDU
			VAC SUIT	1	DEX
			ADMIN		1	SOC OR EDU



10.  The low end of the scale should be watched so that characters with level one skills 
(actually, most characters have a majority of level one skills) do not get hit with 
unrealistic (and unfun to play) low chances of success.


I want to come up with a good, playable task fix that is not only desirable too myself, 
but is preferred by all of you out there who don't like the problems in the T4 system.  
Joe Walsh has suggested that I send this in to IG when we are done in the hopes that it 
will be printed as an optional rule in an upcoming supplement.  I think that this is a 
great idea, and I want to get this thing right.

Please look over the above goals and post any comments that you might have.  I'll be 
posting a prototype task system that we can all beat around, and play with, soon.

Regards to all,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:39:09 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Imperium personalities

>               c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the
>Zhunastu Labs)

	Ah HA! So it WAS Cleon's geeky brother who made it all possible!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 01:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Central Supply Catalog?

Does anyone know if the upcoming Central Supply Catalog will be just for 
Year 0 (ie nothing higher than TL 12, or if it will also include all TL 
13-15/16 gadgets and vehicles that we all know and love?

Thanks

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 04:40:42 -0700
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

Roger Sanger wrote:

> P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
> absolute favorites?
> 
> What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
> other game supplements?                                        RS

DGP stuff was hands down the best stuff ever produced for Traveller.  I've said in a 
recent post that GDW may have invented the wheel, but DGP made it roll.  I own 
everything DGP ever produced for Traveller.

As for what did I like in particular?  Well, that's hard to say because everything was 
so good.  I liked the detail in the Starship Op Manual.  I liked the fleshed out 
adventures complete with NPC stats, maps, deckplans, and full systems described for the 
whole adventure.  I liked the flow chart system.  Heck, the interior/exterior art even 
beat the pants off of any other company's products.

If you keep up the quality and design of your previous materials, you've got a customer 
that will buy every product you produce.

Sincerely,

Kenneth Bearden.

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 01:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GDW Bet list archives?

Does anyone have the URL for the GDW Beta-list archives?

Thanks

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 04:54:33 -0700
Subject: Re: The Central Supply Catalog?

John R. Snead wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know if the upcoming Central Supply Catalog will be just for
> Year 0 (ie nothing higher than TL 12, or if it will also include all TL
> 13-15/16 gadgets and vehicles that we all know and love?

Better chech with Joe on this, but I thought I read (in all the hoop-la before T4 came 
out) that the catalog will contain EVERY item ever published in a GDW adventure or 
supplement.  Hmm.  Maybe I saw this on IG's web page, and maybe I'm wrong all together.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:12:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ken's Task Fix Update.

     I really like the 10 "Foundations of Fixing the T4 Task System" that 
were just posted (another list-development from the 2 days (not a week, not
a month, 2 days!) that I was gone-- this discussion's become Organized!) but
I have a couple of comments to make:

1) For starters, I don't want to take credit away from whomever it was that
first suggested the progressive whole-die difficulty scale, I was just
repeating what someone else had suggested earlier when I mentioned it a few
days back.
   About the perceived weakness of this system (that it makes easy tasks
too hard): I don't understand where you're coming from.  An "Average" task
under T4 and in the "whole-die" system is 2D, so the difficulty should be 
exactly the same (disregarding changes in target-number determination).  I
suppose you're objecting to the 3D vs 2.5D at "Difficult", but Joe Average
with stat 7 skill 2 (target=9) will still succeed a little less than 50% of
the time (soory I don't have an exact number handy), comparable to the MT 
system where the same character (DM +3, target 11+ on 2D) has ~35% chance of 
success.  Since I've been using the equivalent difficulty of tasks in MT as
my base-line, this seems pretty good to me.  

2) My second concern is the bit about making the system "work" for characters
with level-1 skills.  In the experience with generating T4 characters so
far (I've made about a half-dozen) I've found that each of them ends up
with a few high-level skills (maybe a level-4, a couple of level-3s) several
level-2 skills (3 or 4) and a bunch of level-1s (at least 6).  The way I
see it, the high-level ones are the character's "specialty", and the lower
level ones are things he's just dabbled in or has a little rudimentary
knowledge of.  This isn't CT where you'll end up with your "Other" 
character who's got 4 skills at level-1 and nothing else.  T4 characters
are designed to be much more versatile than their CT predecessors.  Rather
than make the mistake (as in Books 4-7) of making multi-skilled characters
much more powerful, I think we should subtly redefine exactly how much 
knowledge is contained in a skill "level".  I'd say that a level-1 CT skill
should be worth a level 2-3 T4 skill (based on the time it takes to
obtain the skills and the ability of the typical PC) and that L-1 T4 skills
are really closer to CT "level 0".  The point of all this meandering is 
that I don't think level-1 skills really need to grant all that good a 
chance of success on their own (without counterbalancing high stats). If we
bend over backwards to make it so, then we'll have an even harder time
"balancing" the system for higher skill-levels, keeping in mind that most
T4 characters are going to have at least one or two skills in the 3-4 range
and that even higher levels probably won't be too rare (since none of the
characters I've generated could in any way be considered "super", and none 
of them chose (except from clusters) any of their skills).
    Ack!  I just realized something while I was yping the above paragraph.
If, as I'm suggesting, we "devalue" skill levels, then we don't need to
worry as much about increasing their importance vis a vis stats.  I'll have
to give this some more thought...

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 06:09:04 -0700
Subject: (fwd) DGP favorites

>From dsmart@flash.net  Sat Oct 12 01:45:56 1996
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Roger Sanger wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Traveller Afficionados,
> <snip>
> P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
> absolute favorites?
> 
> What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
> other game supplements?                                        RS

Roger, it's difficult to have a favorite; I loved it all! I am leaning
toward the Alien products because they added so much background info. As
for your second question, I'd have to say overall quality of the product
and the breadth of the material. The idea of tracking a journey across
the Imperium was brilliant! The task and nugget systems vastly improved
my campaigns as did the form for equipment. DGP had as much, if not
more, effect on the direction and "look" of Traveller as GDW. If things
go well with your negotiations and DGP can put out the same class of
material, I'll be a customer for life!


------------------------------

From: mark james wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:11:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?

> > Library Data
> > 1. Personalities
> > 		a. Cleon (Emperor)
> > 		b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to > adventurers)
> > 		c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu > Labs)
> > 		d. Frank Repzinski XVII
I just had an interesting (and perhaps evil thought :-) perhaps he's a 
clone. I know that cloning is a possiblity in the Traveller 
universe, but only at high tech levels. Can you do it a tl12. Perhaps he 
was a researcher into the ancients stumbled into a cloning chamber and 
suddenly there were 16 of him. Who then started to argue about who get to 
claim the credit for the discovery, they now only talkthrough their mutal 
lawyers.

*** "I wonder if you can refuse to inherit the Earth?"          ***
***                                          Calvin and Hobbes  ***
*** Mark James Wilkin                                           ***
 

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:17:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Dolphins, M. Falcon

Dear Folks -

1.	DOLPHINS

Earl Wajenberg asked:

>and all adult neo-dolphins are equipped with cyber-jacks.  (Are 
>the dolphins of Traveller natural or transgenic?)

See my Library Data - "A" to "G" now available! Dolphins are geneered.

2.	SYNTETIC PC's

No synthetic PC's but we did design "K9" and "The Luggage".

...Plus a very silly battlesuit/robot for a Droyne.

3.	MILLENIUM FALCON

Actually, _Aslan and Solomani_ contained a Solomani ship that looked very
like the Falcon. I believe that the Falcon, using the _StarWars_
measurements, translates to 300 Traveller tons.

4.	TRANSLATIONS

>>What do "Vrage," "tl-f/fb," and "tl-c" mean?
>Michael is German (I presume), and I think some things occasionally don't get 
translated into English... I think he means Vargr...

"Vargr" is *English* ??? (BTW, loved "Water for the Desert").
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #542
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 12 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 543

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE:  DGP Announcement
         2. Re: (To Michael Koehne) Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. OFFICIAL QUESTION and DGP
         4. Re: Oh no Joe
         5. Possible Solution for Starship Economics Problems
         6. (fwd) DGP Favorites
         7. Re: DGP Announcement
         8. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         9. Vior
        10. Re: OFFICIAL QUESTION and DGP
        11. Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)
        12. Re: The 2D Task System
        13. Re: DGP Favorites
        14. Re: Dolphins, M. Falcon
        15. Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #521
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #524
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:08:35 +0900
Subject: RE:  DGP Announcement

>>Subject: DGP Announcement
>>We are seeking  a renewal of DGP's Traveller  license, so that we
can rerelease  our extensive Traveller archives  in various forms
as  well as  produce brand  new Traveller  works for  your gaming
pleasure. We love  sci-fi, and we look forward  to being involved
in Traveller development once again  and working with Marc Miller
and Imperium Games.

YYYYES!!!  This is exciting!

>>I'll keep you posted.

Please!

>>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
absolute favorites?

EVERY LAST ONE!!  I was always impressed with DGP's stuff!  If I must narrow 
it down,  I'd say the Alien suppliments, but still saying that doesn't do 
justice to all the great stuff in the Digests and so on.  It just kept 
getting better.

>>What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
other game supplements?

Thoroughness.  Depth.  Detail.  Creativity.  Artwork.  Everything.  DGP's 
books really got me excited about Traveller, and they were great reading 
too!  DGP books always seemed to flesh out parts of Traveller I wanted to 
see fleshed out the most.

Go Rodge Go!!
- ---------------
PS: I liked the "tunnels through the Earth" analogy for jumpspace best.


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:39:41 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: (To Michael Koehne) Hop, Skip, and Jump

Moin Kenneth Bearden,

> I didn't say in my last reply to your post that I really like your formula.  This is 
> exactly the system I am proposing.  

	But as this formular makes jump shorter, we decided to extend
	the save jump from 100 diameters to size*size*10 light seconds.

	So a full jump (j2 for a Jayhawk) would take longer than a week
	while a half jump would take a bit shorter.

> I use your (the TNE) approach when a ship has a fuel burning Heplar drive.  Thruster 
> plates run only on electricity, and the Travel Formula is good enough for me.

	You can use the same formular with TPlates :

	Eg. a ship jumping from a A planet to an 7 planet would
	accellerate 14 hours, drift 11 hours, jump, and decelerate
	14 hours. If the ship hadnt drift it would crash in the
	smaller planet, or had to fly some loops arount.

	If these two planets are 2 parsec away it would need 8.5 days
	(207 hours) if they are one parsec away it would need 5.1 days
	(123 hours) for the trip.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:19:35 -0400
Subject: OFFICIAL QUESTION and DGP

        Here is an OFFICIAL QUESTION for you, Joe. I'd also be curious as to
whether this was noted in the edited copy of T4 that you sent to IG:
       
        The COSTS of the Helnet and Diplo Armor is not mentioned in the text
on page
76. As there is no Armor Table (which would fit nicely in the blank space on
page 80 under the weapons list, by the way), these costs are not available.
What is the cost of the Helmet and of Diplo Armor?

        And now, a comment; PLEASE encourage IG to at least allow DGP to
re-release the materials they have in their archives on CD-ROM or even
(hopefully) in print. In fact, I'd like to see the classic GDW stuff
rereleased as well. It could be called "THE TRAVELLER ARCHIVES". It wouldn't
even be neccesary to update it to the new game. Put it out as is for those
of us who would like to own the old stuff. DGP could release this stuff
under the auspices of IG, and if they're worried about compatibility, a
disclaimer could be included thus:

        "This work was produced for [insert edition of Traveller here]. The
information contained in this work may not be consistent with the official
Traveller Universe as produced by FarFuture Enterprises and Imperium Games."

        I'd like to see the DGP stuff put out again because it would make it
MUCH cheaper in the long run to get that stuff, and it was great stuff! A
lot of that information would be very useful to me. IG and it's other
licensees can support the "Current" Traveller; DGP can be our archivists.
(And what the heck, let 'em do some new stuff, too.)
                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:57:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Oh no Joe

On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Charlie wrote:

> We are gathered here today to bid farewell to the area around and
> includeing the home of one Mr J. Walsh. It takes a brave man to paint a
> flame Me target on the top of His home. Now We can see if orbital
> bombarment really works. 
>                                                                            
> By By Bro
>                                                                          
> Best of luck

[grin]  Thanks, Charlie.  


- -Joe
PS:  Out of kindness to my parents, please delay the rock dropping until 
they leave.  Thanks. :P
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:11:29 +1000
Subject: Possible Solution for Starship Economics Problems

I just worked out the stats for a basic no-frills 1G, J1 1000 ton merchie
(no weapons, no refining), all cargo and no passenger capacity - leaves
757 tons of space for cargo, and the damn thing *still* can't run at less
than 72% and even "break even" at 1000 Cr per ton. To run and break even
at 60% capacity, it has to charge 1210 Cr per ton of cargo.

There *is* however, an elegant solution to the problem that doesn't
require major tinkering ... it involves a modification to the Starship
acquisition procedure that most PCs will follow ... that is, getting it as
a roll on the Benefit table.

Now, since the minimum time it takes to get such a result (a roll of 7,
which requires the +1 only available with an O5 rank or greater) is ten
years, it appears *on the face of it* reasonable to make the assumption
that Traveller has always made that the ship the character has is 10 years
old and was bought new as, as it states, financing is difficult to get for
older ships.

It is *possible* (tho unlikely) to roll the same benefit *three times* and
get what we have always been told is a 30 year old ship ... all at a
minimum age of 38!!!

OK. Do *you* know any bank in creation that will lend an 8 year old 32 MCr
(around 64 million US$ if previous hints are correct) on no collateral
other than the ship he buys with it? *I*, for one, don't ... but if *you*
do, lemme know where! I have this great little bizness proposition for
them!

If you delink the roll on the table and the age of the ship you get a
better possible outcome. 

Consider this. The biggest component in running a Starship is the Loan
Repayment. This is 1/240th of the value each month for 480 months (40
years). This means that a 38 year old Captain can have a 30 year old ship
and *still* be paying 1/240th of the value of it - even tho we're told
financing a second hand vessel is difficult - as if *he* bought it 30
years before, at age 8. Obviously not on. Sorry, won't wash.

So, what I suggest is this. Each time a ship is rolled, it indicates that
*somehow* the new owner has managed to acquire 1/4 (around 8 MCr) worth of
*equity* in a *new* version of said ship ... and that Repayments are based
on the *remainder*.

So, a Free Trader @ 30.75 MCr gained once would actually represent a
*loan* of only 23.0625 MCr ... and monthly repayments of only 96094 Cr
rather than 128125 Cr if the whole price was financed. This reduces the
monthly operational costs to 154094 Cr, rounding to around 170,000 Cr
(allowing a buffer for yearly maintenance and unforseen problems), or
30000 Cr less than it would otherwise cost in my previous calculations.

So, with 120 usable tons on the stock FT model the cost per commercially
usable ton is now 1417 Cr.

On a line item basis, this translates to -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo space = 20000 Cr income; 7085 Cr cost.
Profit = 12915 Cr.
1 Middle Passage in HP Cabin = 16000 Cr income; 5668 Cr cost. Profit =
10332 Cr.
1 Low Passage = 2000 Cr income; 1417 Cr cost. Profit = 583 Cr.
1 ton Cargo = 2000 Cr income; 1417 Cr cost. Profit = 583 Cr.

Can she operate profitably on a 50-60% loadout in each category?

High Passage x 6: Cost = 42510 per month. Running with three staterooms
occupied at all times produces 60k Cr, a profit of 17490 Cr.
Middle Passage x 6: Cost = 34008 Cr per month. Running with 3 staterooms
occupied at all times produces 48k Cr, a profit of 13992 Cr.
Low Passage x 20: Cost = 28340 Cr per month. Running with 12 Berths
occupied at all times produces 24k Cr, a loss of 4340 Cr per month. Actual
cost of Low Passage would have to be 1181 Cr.
Cargo x 76 tons: Cost = 107692 Cr per month. Running 60% full (46 tons)
produces 92k Cr, or a shortfall of 15692 Cr. Actual cost of Cargo should
be 1171 Cr per ton.

So, no she can't. However, if we assume that (somehow) the Captain gained
8 MCr equity in a 10 year old ship (worth 75% of its new cost), he
effectively has payments on only 15.375 MCr ... or monthly repayments of
only 64063 Cr, dropping operational expenses to around 135000 Cr, or a
cost per usable ton for a stock FT model of 1125 Cr per commercially
usable ton.

On a line item basis, this translates to -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo space = 20000 Cr income; 5625 Cr cost.
Profit = 14375 Cr.
1 Middle Passage in HP Cabin = 16000 Cr income; 4500 Cr cost. Profit =
11500 Cr.
1 Low Passage = 2000 Cr income; 1125 Cr cost. Profit = 875 Cr.
1 ton Cargo = 2000 Cr income; 1125 Cr cost. Profit = 875 Cr.

Can she operate profitably on a 50-60% loadout in each category?

High Passage x 6: Cost = 33750 Cr per month. Running with three staterooms
occupied at all times produces 60k Cr, a profit of 26250 Cr.
Middle Passage x 6: Cost = 27k Cr per month. Running with 3 staterooms
occupied at all times produces 48k Cr, a profit of 21k Cr.
Low Passage x 20: Cost = 22500 Cr per month. Running with 12 Berths
occupied at all times produces 24k Cr, a *PROFIT* of 2500 Cr per month!
Cargo x 76 tons: Cost = 85500 Cr per month. Running 60% full (46 tons)
produces 92k Cr, or *PROFIT* of 6500 Cr.

Ergo, it *is* possible to run the ship at break even for around 60%
capacity *and* keep the "standard" 1000 Cr per ton cargo shipping cost!

So, the solution, each roll of "Starship" on a the Merchant Benefit Table
represents 8 MCr equity in a *new* starship, which may be increased to 16
MCr equity in an older starship (at 10 years of age added each time this
alternative is used). This would mean that a Captain who was quite lucky
could own a 20 year old stock FT *outright* after two rolls of "Starship"
on the table.

Assume that the incredible luck of rolling a "Starship" result three times
means that you can take a 10 year old ship that is owned *outright* ... or
a twenty year old one that has up to 8 MCr worth of improvements to it.

In this situation, there is *absolutely* no reason why you should have to
take a stock FT. There's no reason why the 8 MCr equity couldn't be used
to purchase a different vessel ... but adding an extra 8 MCr for age would
not necessarily make the vessel 10 years old, it would depend on the
actual cost of the vessel.

For example, 8 MCr equity could be used to buy a 1000 ton Free Trader (J1,
M1, no weapons or refining, worth 94 MCr. It would mean that the new
"owner" would only own around 3.4 years worth of it, or 6.8 years worth if
he takes the 16 MCr "age for equity" option. Payments would be based on
either a loan of 86 MCr or of 78 MCr depending.

Makes the whole system much more flexible without putting the players into
a deep financial hole!

Oh, and before you complain that its "unrealistic" for a character to have
amassed that sort of money in a potentially quite short time, well, even
the old rule was quite unrealistic if you take that as a criteria. All it
means is that the character probably speculated on his own behalf in the
starship he was employed on - and made a killing (probably a couple!)
along the way. Unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible!

And the huge advantage is that it makes the system work for PCs.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:19:57 -0700
Subject: (fwd) DGP Favorites

>From aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au  Sat Oct 12 07:13:57 1996
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From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
To: <rodge@cyberspace.com>
Subject: Favourite DGP Product
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:15:32 +1000
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Status: R

Without a doubt, my favourite product was the World Builder's Handbook -
had both of the original two part products and bought *two* copies of the
reprinted single volume second edition.

As for the rest, well, none of it overly impressed me, mainly because I
thought the Task System of MTrav sucked in a major way and this coloured
my opinion of products that used it. Also, I disliked some of the weirder
developments like (IIRC) the "sparklers" ... many of which I heard of only
second hand as DGP distribution to Oz was virtually nonexistent towards
the end (and not good even at the best of times ... I got both copies of
WB V2.0 from o/s sources (Games of Berkeley, as I recall) for example.

What *did* I like about DGP - the (mostly) workmanlike illustrations, but
not the crappy Mac generated ones that appeared in a lot of the earlier
stuff. The completeness ... even when I thought a lot of what was being
written was complete garbage it was at least *complete* complete garbage,
if you get my drift?!

Anyway, I hope to see an updated version of WB "real soon now"!!!

Also, the "AI" game that DGP was working on towards the end sounded
*really* interesting ... I'd maybe be interested in that, too.

Good luck,

Phil McGregor
- ---
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel
Co-Author of Space Opera (FGU)


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:27:11 +0200
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
>absolute favorites?
>
>What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
>other game supplements?                                        RS

My absolute favourite was Digest #9 (Maps of Capital, lots of history) but
all the Megatraveller Journal issues were great. Least liked was 101 Robots
as the designsystem didn't agree with me so I couldn't use the designstats
and the illos where awful except a few.
I always thought that MT was the (still is) the best version of Traveller
but when I look at my reasons for thinking so I realise that what I liked
about MT was the DGP stuff produced for it. GREAT artwork generally and
good editing and layout.
In depth facts and no 20th century yank in-jokes destroying the feel like TNE.

BTW As I write this there's a 70% solar eclipse going on out my window,
kind of reminds me that I live in a solarsystem.


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:27:09 +0200
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

>I like this. No messy explanation required. However, it still fails to
>address the concept of a variable 1 week travel time, and it is terribly
>short on allowing for additional drama. (It's a week, that's it --
>nothing can be done about it, sit around watch the holovid for the
>duration of the jump, ho-hum)
>
>Glenn "who likes more action in jumpspace" Hoppe

If the analogy tunnel through earth isn't entirely straight the time will
vary, the same is true if the planet doesn't have homogenous density even
if it's spherically symmetrical. Feel free to translate this into j-space
physics handwaving.
We actually played through a 7 day jump with detailed roleplaying with a
crew of only PCs - only one survived the journey.


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:00:38 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Vior

Dear Folks -

1.	VOIR

Michael Koehne said:
>the explenation is hard but the location is wrong ;-(
>Vior 1605 X500401-1 Va Ni 301 Aslan M4 V

Sorry. The "0805" location is relative to the Egryn subsector, only - I just
wrote down what the article said, instead of checking my _Atlas_. %-O

As for Aslan-owned, I think you are looking at post-1116 stats. Prior to
this time, Egryn's worlds are all independant.

[BTW, I'm the one who posted Voir; I think Ensign John didn't realise
Michael quoted my quote from Tom (not enough ">>" delimeters!).]

2.	GW

Michael Barry said:
>miniatures "so, the battledress trooper fires his PGMP at the Droyne
warrior, er, sorry, the Space Marine sergeant fires his flamer at the
Genestealer"

Don't tell the Droyne in my campaign they have been liked to Genestealers !
(they'll just get nasty ideas about popping up out of nowhere ;_).
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 08:58:07 -0800
Subject: Re: OFFICIAL QUESTION and DGP

On 12 Oct 96 at 10:19, Susan M. Shock spewed:

>         And now, a comment; PLEASE encourage IG to at least allow
>         DGP to
> re-release the materials they have in their archives on CD-ROM or
> even (hopefully) in print. In fact, I'd like to see the classic GDW

FWIW, Count me in as a yes vote as well


> stuff rereleased as well. It could be called "THE TRAVELLER
> ARCHIVES". It wouldn't even be neccesary to update it to the new
> game. Put it out as is for those of us who would like to own the old

U know what.  I think it would be a good idea to release the stuff 
updated to the new game.  It would sell to a wider audience than just 
the grognards.  

>         I'd like to see the DGP stuff put out again because it would
>         make it
> MUCH cheaper in the long run to get that stuff, and it was great
> stuff! A lot of that information would be very useful to me. IG and

The best argument in favor of reprinting/rereleasing it, is of course 
that it would put that much more Traveller material on the shelves, 
making it easier for IG's own stuff to compete with the WW, FASA, and 
TSR's of the world...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 09:01:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)

On 11 Oct 96 at 17:45, John Macek spewed:

> Greetings,
> Somewhere out there on the Net I was able to find a Traveller random
> word generator for the following languages - Aslan, Droyne, Vargr,
> Vilani, & Zhodani.  Maybe one of our savants can help with a URL?

Really, there are several word generators out on the 'Net for 
generating words from the various Traveller languages.

The best that I've seen is Leroy Guatney's TrWords...

Has all of the major Traveller languages, and you can easily create 
tables to generate new ones...

URL for Leroy's page is:
http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/index.html

Hope this helps...

Stu


Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:57:04 +0000
Subject: Re: The 2D Task System

Will give your system a look see
It seems interesting.
One question, do you use this sytem yourself (or plan to, or is this just a first playtest)?

------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:29:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: DGP Favorites

<delurk>
I thought that one of the best products from DGP was Starship Operators
Manual.  It has been years since I last played Traveller, but that is one
of the few third party products that remember clearly.

</delurk>
===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:05:07 +0000
Subject: Re: Dolphins, M. Falcon

David Jaques-Watson wrote:
> 4.      TRANSLATIONS
> >>What do "Vrage," "tl-f/fb," and "tl-c" mean?
> >Michael is German (I presume), and I think some things occasionally don't get
> translated into English... I think he means Vargr...
> 
> "Vargr" is *English* ???

I think he made a typo, and I believe Vargr is actually a scandinavian word meaning wolf
As far as the other things, tl-f/fb is, I think, a tech level 15 fibre optics computer, and tl-c 
is either a ref to tech level 12 or a tech level 12 computer

Just a pointless post

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:04:46 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Primate interfertility (Cleon&Marches?!)

  
> I think 300K yrs ago was past H. Erectus' time. By that time  
> H. Sapiens Neandertalis and early modern H. Sapiens Sapiens 
> were in vouge. 

_H.erectus_ was on the edge at that point.  The problem is that we
only sample fossils at odd intevals for taphonomic reasons
(taphonomy is how fossils form).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:20 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #521

In-Reply-To: <9610092042.AA15091@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: FarFuture@aol.com
Subject: Milieu 0 Outline

This is a rough outline for Milieu 0, showing basic elements that we 
think we want to include in the book. Please give us your feedback

MILIEU 0: The Third Imperium >>

Chapters on the Long Night and Sylean Federation. Maps showing the 
expansion of the Imperium.

<< FIRST SURVEY
This vital companion to Milieu 0 is an atlas of the 50 or so sectors >>

50 *sectors*? Subsectors, Shirley?

<< The star systems of the Sylean Federation are well defined. Farther 
and farther out, systems are less well-defined. Each adventuring group 
determines its own survey results for each system they visit.
Each page is a map of a single sector; systems are marked, but not 
defined or identified except for some specified areas. >>

No, don't like that. If people want to ignore or change some of the 
information, fine. No problem with that, I've even done it myself once 
or twice, but a lot of refs simply don't have the time (or don't want) 
to roll up UWPs for every world of 50 (sub)sectors (and yes, you *do* 
have to do them all, 'cos you can bet your life the players will want to 
go somewhere you didn't expect them to). Plus, one of the best things 
about Traveller is the detail and consistency of the background (which 
includes the maps). If I had to pick the most useful Traveller 
supplements ever, #3 and #10 would be high up the list.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:20 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #524

In-Reply-To: <9610100131.AA16147@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Bruce Johnson wrote:
 any Ancient device has ever advanced Imperial
> technology. Every time I've seen them mentioned they're always
> incrutable, usually wildly dangerous devices:
> 
>         " Hey Joe, poke at that thing with this stick!"
> 
>         POOF
> 
>         "Hey! Where'd Joe go?"  

LOLOLOL!  I just love to see things like this on a post.  It makes them 
so much more enjoyable to read. >>

Have I told you what happened when my group found the antimatter battery 
in _Twilight's Peak_?

Me: You see a dull grey box about this big, with two gold studs on top.

PC: I'll press one of them.

Me: Nothing happens.

PC: I'll press the other one.

Me: Nothing happens.

PC: I'll press both of them.

Me: There's a flash of light and a smell of ozone...[passes over Book 1 
and a blank character sheet]

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:20 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526

In-Reply-To: <9610100905.AA17299@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> FIRST SURVEY
> Each adventuring group determines its own survey results for each 
system they visit.

You asked for feed back:  It all looks great, but I don't like this 
leaving systems blank, like what was done with the Core subsector in the 
main book, at all.  I want to see the new materials support what has 
already been published.  

Besides, there is a lot of room for GMs to detail and customize a star 
system even if the stats of the main planet are provided.  In my 
campaigns, I do a lot with a systems outer/inner planets (planets other 
than the main world).  I use the World Builder's Handbook and my own 
imagination to fill in the holes. >>

Listen to this man, he speaks wisely.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #543
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 12 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 544

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 2D Task System, Erratta
         2. Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions
         3. Re: social-acceptance
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #537
         5. Re: DGP Announcement
         6. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         7. Another Joke
         8. Emcumbered with Problems
         9. Re: DGP Favorites
        10. Ranged Combat
        11. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        12. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        13. Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!
        14. Re: too close for 1G drive? (was hop skip jump)
        15. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #512
        17. Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526
        19. Varient for Starship Purchase/Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:51:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 2D Task System, Erratta

RE: my 2D Task System:

OOPS! Apologies for the confusing typo in the following paragraph.

>Example: a character with Skill 3 and Stat 9 is attempting a Difficult
>task. The base target is 30. He adds 6 for the skill (3*2=6) + 2 for the
>above-average stat (9-7=2), for a modifier of 6. The result is not 38, as
                                              ^^^
"6" should be "8" of course. Thus...

>Example: a character with Skill 3 and Stat 9 is attempting a Difficult
>task. The base target is 30. He adds 6 for the skill (3*2=6) + 2 for the
>above-average stat (9-7=2), for a modifier of 8. The result is not 38, as
>it would be in base-10, because 38 doesn't exist on the matrix. Instead, he
>counts 8 steps up the matrix (starting where 30 would be); so the actual
>target number is 42-.

Please let me know if I messed up anything else - and what do you think of
the probability curves in this system?

Thanks,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:27:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Interstellar Scout Service - Urgent Questions

Andy Lilly wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm trying to do a little background research on the Scout Service, both
> from the Milieu 0 viewpoint and the Third Imperium (pre Rebellion).
> 
> I've got the various insignia from Scouts and Assassins (Paranoia Press) and
> the World Builder's Handbook (DGP) but I have no indication of the COLOURS
> of the insignia, nor of the standard one-piece uniforms the scouts wore.

I'm inclined to think that in Milleu 0, the term "scout uniform" is an oxymoron. Active, 
adventuresome Scouts are rugged individualists, bot uniformed weenies.
> 
> For some reason I have the following in mind, but I've not managed to track
> down any 'canon' sources for these, so I don't know where I got the info from:
> 
> LIGHT GREY one-piece uniform?
> Badges are BLACK with YELLOW insignia (i.e. the ponii is yellow)?
> The sunburst emblem is yellow on a black background?

I thought the sunburst was red . . . .

> 
> The MT Referee's Companion shows the guys standing on the refuelling scout
> ship in light BLUE uniforms. I thought the NAVY was BLUE. So what colour are
> the scouts, and army? Someone mentioned some months back about the sunbursts
> for the navy being blue and the army being black?

This sounds right . . . . with the marines being maroon. I saw this in the MT Imperial 
Encyclopedia, I think.

> 
> Can someone please point me to something which confirms or denies the above
> (it's fairly urgent!!!)?
> 
> Andy :-)

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:20:50 -0700
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> 
> >Yup, the joke's on us, all right . . . .
> >
> >Hey, why not steal Foxworthy's best bit for the interests of Da List:
> 
> <listing snipped>
> 
> This is going on The Silly Era tomorrow with your permission, Rich.  If
> anyone has more ideas, feel free to send them to me for inclusion.

Thanks for asking for permission . . . and you definitely have my bemused blessings to 
post the silly bits on The Silly Era.

I'm going to pop the ". . . You might be a Trav Player" bit onto my onto my players 
tomorrow afternoon, and I'll send in the best wisecracks ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:32:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #537

Quoth Joe Walsh:
> On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> > >The parent organization
> > Who is this mysterious parent organization?
> Dunno.  It's a company in CA.

Aha!  Chaosium are the secret masters!  The stars are right!  :-)

Either that, or R. Talsorian will soon do a Castle Falkenstein / Traveller
crossover....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:45:13 -0400
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
>absolute favorites?
>
>What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
>other game supplements?                                        RS

I'd have to say that the Alien books were my favorite, although I did enjoy
the Starship Operator's Handbook. I never got to see the World Builder's
Handbook, but I hear it was excellent.

        DGP's supplements showed an attention to detail and quality that was
sorely lacking in GDW's own efforts (except for those like the KNIGHTFALL
adventure that DGP actually worked on) at that time. I think, from what I've
seen and heard, that the DGP folks may have lost sight of the fact that
Traveller wasn't their game, as  some of the things they did were obviously
not what was originally intended (witness their being declared "unofficial"
these days), but that's understandable. They were (and presumably are)
highly creative people; working within someone else's paradigm can be
restrictive at times. Still, it definitley appears to me that DGP kept
Traveller alive, and without them there could have been no TNE and T4 down
the line.

                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:07:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

A great outline, Marc!  I look forward to purchasing the book!  My
comments follow:

> History
>     1. Antecedents
>         a. The last decades of the Long Night
>         b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium

I'd like to see more information about the final days of the Rule of Man:
even minor events, like the late designation of Sylea as a seat of empire,
have reverberations in the "present".  Could there be rival claimants to
Sylea's "heritage"?  What were the characteristics of the collapse around
Sylea: war or simple wasting away?  All that will have a definite impact
on the type of environment (ruins, cultures, legends) that scouts and
traders find, even over a millenium later.

>     2. Sylea's Rise
>         a. Economic Pressures
>         b. Political Pressures

Likewise, may we have some history on Sylea?  Fragmentary evidence (viz.
the ship names from *Azhanti High Lightning*) would seem to indicate that
the Syleans are a separate subspecies of humaniti -- is this your
conception, or are they purely a Vilani/Solomani mix named after the
colony they inhabit?  I think the minor-race angle has the potential
for a great deal more "chrome" for the setting, as well as some more
political/economic/social excitement as the Syleans try to hold their
own amongst the resurgent Solomani nobility and the re-integrated Vilani.

What was Sylea to the Ziru Sirka?  How did it come to gain enough
prominence to be a governmental seat for the Ramshackle Empire?  Was it a
bureaux headquarters later writ large, a military depot, a noble preserve?
All this, too, will have repercussions as we imagine and develop our
independent versions of the Imperial Capital.  It is a world we may well
be revisiting again and again: let's try to create a consistent base for
divergent play groups to build upon.

> 		d. Frank Repzinski XVII

Would I be right to guess that this is a rival claimant as inheritor of
the Rule of Man?  Can you dribble us a few more juicy details?  :-)
		
> 2. Places
> 	a. Terra
> 	b. Vland
> 	c. The Great Rift
> 	d. Sylea
> 	e. Antares

All sound like prime sites to be mentioned and detailed.  Could I suggest,
also, that the Geonee (minor human race) would be a prime "pocket empire"
located between Sylea and Terra?  (I seem to recall a power structure in
Massilia, borne out by a "mixed-bureaux" area on maps of the Vilani
Empire, no doubt due to the importance of an already-developed and
- -industrialized enclave of sophisticated humaniti providing a potent
trade and administrative area.  I bet they lasted through the Long Night
in pretty good shape too!)

> 5. Maps

Amen to those!  I second the call for "moving-frontier" maps: let us see
when and how Sylea was absorbed into the Ziru Sirka, how the Rule of Man
fragmented around it, what the currently-known astropolitical situation
is, and how it relates to Cleon's current political/economic/military
thrusts.

> Rules
> 	1. Diplomatic Interactions
> 	2. Player generic Imperials
> 	3. Playing Vilani

4. Playing Minor Humans.  Prior Traveller history has already established
that the area around Vland is rife with Ancient-seeded offshoots of Humaniti.
To me, those subspecies and their interactions and differences are one of
the most exciting parts of the Traveller background.  Please try to make
minor humans an integral part of the early Imperium, when they have the
potential to make such a difference and produce so much color: well-thought-
out, they could completely avoid Star Trek's "funny-forehead" syndrome and
instead draw in, for example, fans of Sterling's Shaper culture and Brin's
Uplift saga.  Humans can be the most exciting aliens!

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:54:27 -0400
Subject: Another Joke

This was contributed by Wayne Cook last night during our Traveller session.

YOU MIGHT BE A TRAVELLER PLAYER/REF IF...

        You pull into a gas station and ask for "unrefined fuel"...


Allen


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:11:30 -0400
Subject: Emcumbered with Problems

        We ran into a serious difficulty last night while playing Part 2 of
my "pirates" adventure. It involves the encumbrance rules. The rules state
that a character can carry a number of kilos equal to his Strength and not
be encumbered, or twice that amount and be -1 to all his physical stats.
Members of a military unit can carry three times that amount and be at -2 to
all their stats. (This is on page 59.) So, an average character with Str 7
can carry 7 kg. (about 15 pounds), and the most he can carry is 14 kg.
(about 31 pounds) unless he is in a military unit (it says nothing about
USED to be in a military unit), and then he can carry 21 kg. (or about 46
pounds).
        I think this is a little low. By way of comparison, most characters
in GURPS would have a 10 Str which is average. An average character in GURPS
can carry 20 pounds with no effect, 40 with only slight effect, so on up to
a maximum carry of
200 pounds (for very short distances). A Traveller character STR is
encumbered by carrying a laser rifle even at Str A! Just think what a plasma
rifle would do!
        I suggest two following fixes to this system:

        1.) Use 2xSTR as the basis, allow anyone to carry triple load at -2
to all physical stats (military types may still have the advantage as they
will often be of higher STR than civilians) OR
        2.) base carrying capacity on STR + END. Same limits as above.

The Fatigue Pool can be used to help determine how long a person can carry
weight above their encumbrance level, possibly lose one point for every
round at Double load and 2 points for every round at Triple load.

                                Allen


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: DGP Favorites

Everything DGP did was among (if not *the*) best material ever produced 
for Traveller.  I particularly loved Solomani & Aslan and Vilani & Vargr.
I was greatly saddened not to see the series of alien books completed, and 
would love to see the other 3 volumes (Psionic Races, Exotic Races, and 
Minor Races).

Best of Luck-

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:19:47 -0400
Subject: Ranged Combat

        Here's another idea from Al's House of House Rules:

        Ranged weapons have a Range stat. This is their effective range.
each range has a number associated with it thusly:
                0 Contact
                1 Very Short
                2 Short
                3 Medium
                4 Long
                5 Very Long

If a weapon has a range of Short, it can shoot out to the limit of the Short
range band with no penalty (45 meters). A weapon which is fired at a target
beyond it's effective range takes a NEGATIVE modifier equal to the range
number; the above pistol shooting at a target at Long range gets a -4 to
it's target number. If said weapon is aimed, it gets it's inherent accuracy
equal to the Range stat of it's weapon (+2), thus reducing that penalty to
- -2. Weapons take no penalty (and get only positive mods if aiming) at any
range equal to or less than their listed Range stat.
       We used this, and it cuts down somewhat on the effect of high
attributes and eliminates the "I can hit this guy at 1500 meters with a Body
Pistol?" effect.
                What do you guys think?

                                Allen

(NOTE "guys" used in a generic manner...)


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:43:52 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> On 10/10/96 at 11:02 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>>> Second, that you can make "short haul" jumps.  In my games, a ship has
>>>> to be over 200 stellar diameters out to jump, and it can leave jump only
>>>> within 2 stellar diameters.   
>
>>Better do some figuring. Look up just what the "equilibrium temp" is at 2
>>stellar diameters out from various stars.  You *won't* like the
>>answer. 
>
> It's acceptable if the ship hauls out of there at top speed. <g>

Just what sort of "top speed" do your ships *have*? Consider that the
heat load at .4 AU is dangerous. And you've popped in a *lot* closer.
Subtract the 1.75 g of solar gravity from your drive, and you'll find
that it'd take you *hours* at any "reasonable" acceleration. In other
words, you are toast. :-)

It's been a *long* time, but as I recall the equilibrium temp at .1 AU
is above the melting point of damn near everything but tungsten,
graphite, and some carbides. (I was designing a planet to be in an
orbit that close and wanted to know what would be solid, liquid, etc)

>>Also work out the escape velocity at that distance. You won't like it
>>either (as in, your ship doesn't have the power to get away)
>
> Doesn't bother me, Leonard.  I don't have ships using the standard tech
> maneuver drives either.
>
> IAC, you're picking nits.  ;-> If you want to use the low
> accleration thrusters, then make the jump in at 10 stellar
> diameters.

Not picking nits. Just rying to get folks to think thru the
*consequences* of changes. Better that I do it than that some player
asks an innocent question and you suddenly realize that you've blown
it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:50:01 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> On 10/10/96 at 11:10 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>>         Thats why we extended the save jump point to size^2*10 light
>>>         seconds, and the dangerous to (size-1)^2*10 light seconds.
>
>>Great. The Sun is size 432. That means you have to get out to 520 light
>>*hours* to make a safe jump. Or only 517 light hours to make a "dangerous"
>>one.
>
>>Want to try that one again?
>
> Leonard, it seems you are having a bad day. <g>
>
> The Sun is size *8* in Traveller terms, isn't it?  

Not is you are using the *planetary* size scale. That has *Earth* being
size 8 (8000 miles diameter). 

>>and you arrive .01856 AU out.  That's one *hell* of a sunburn,
>>folks!  (4 *megawatts* per square meter of hull!)  
>
> My handy dandy Book 6 indicates a tempreture of around 2700 kelvin at that
> range..assuming your ship absorbed all the radiation.

Better re-read the fine print. I bet that's *equilibrium* temp. That
is, the temp at which you radiate as much as you receive.

> Ship's in my games
> have highly reflective surfaces and that helps, but jumping in that close
> is still not a happy place to be.

Trouble with being reflective is that it cuts down on *emission* as
well as absorbtion. So if you get hot, it's harder to get rid of the
heat. That's why the inside of termos flasks are reflective. To
*minimize* radiation of heat.

> <g> Your Astrogator better be good and
> your Pilot better be able fly you out of there toot suite!

Amen to that!

Of course, unless you have one *hell* of a drive, and g-comp to match,
you'll be that close for a long time.

<clatter, clatter>

Gee... isn't that a solar flare forming? :-)


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:02:43 PST
Subject: Re: The Solution to the Task Roll Problem!

In mail you write:

> On 10/10/96 at 09:56 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>In mail you write:
>
>>> On 10/09/96 at 05:35 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said
>>>
>>>>1. Attribute modifiers to skill are based upon the *difference* between
>>>>the attribute and 7. An attribute of 9 gives a bonus of 2, but an
>>>>attribute of 5 gives a *penalty* of 2.
>
>>Everyone was complaining that things were "*way* too easy". So how about
>>shifting the difficulty levels by *one* die. That'd make the end result
>>tasks that are one die harder than the rules, but with the ovrwhelming
>>attribute factor taken out.
>
>
> Ben has the following Attributes and Skills...
>
> STR  4 - 7 = -3   <-- negative numbers are going to be a problem DEX  9 - 7
> =  2
>
> Melee Cbt 3 + (-3) =  0  <--- a problem!
>
> Pilot     2 + (2)  =  2  <--- awfully low!
>
> Unless I'm misunderstanding this is going to far in reducing the influence
> of Attributes.

So it needs adjustment. I suppose you could even shift two dice, but
not having the charts, I can't say.

As for negative numbers, well, that'll teach you stick to things you
are good at. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:04:25 PST
Subject: Re: too close for 1G drive? (was hop skip jump)

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
>>ps. Someone else was talking about having to be 200 stellar diameters
>>out to jump, and arriving 2 stellar diameters out. For the sun that
>>means you have to be 1.856 AU out, and you arrive .01856 AU out. That's
>>one *hell* of a sunburn, folks! (4 *megawatts* per square meter of hull!)
>>There's also the not so trivial matter of the sun exerting 1.75 g on
>>your ship at that distance. What? You only have a 1 g drive. Too bad...
>
> Sorry Leonard - that's only if you try to run straight out from the Sun...

True, but I wasn't go to try the more complicated orbital mechanics.
You can't figure those without some idea of the delta-V available. 

And the delta-V required to get from a close solar orbit to one farther
out is rather large (it's the difference in escape velocity at the two
distances) 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:29:59 PST
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

In mail you write:

> ("I _know_ the scenario says those TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this
> platoon has Tech-8 gear. Now shut up while I roll where that HEAP RAM
> grenade hit you . . .).

Shouldn't that be:

"I _know_ the briefing said these TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this
 platoon has Tech-8 gear. If you survive the battle you can discuss it
 to your heart's content with division intel..."

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 20:14:22 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #512

In mail you write:

> Maybe I should mention the Traveller game where someone tried to summon 
> a demon...and succeeded!

Reminds me of an old FRPG joke:

"Summon Demon" is a 1st level spell. "Control Demon" is 9th level...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:21:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?

My initial thought was that he was the 23rd generation of a family which can
trace its history, lineage, etc, back to Terra.

Marc


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:26:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526

In a message dated 96-10-12 14:23:40 EDT, you write:

<<  FIRST SURVEY
 > Each adventuring group determines its own survey results for each 
 system they visit.
 
 You asked for feed back:  It all looks great, but I don't like this 
 leaving systems blank, like what was done with the Core subsector in the 
 main book, at all.  I want to see the new materials support what has 
 already been published.  
  >>


There is no way that we can detail 20,000 star systems. And I think that just
leaving the UWPs to the computer provides information without substance. The
concept I have is that we WILL detail several areas (the places mentioned in
the Outline). By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your adventurers
to particpate in defining theteritory.

And as we define some specific worlds (like Spires), you get to decide where
they are placed within a sector or group of sectors.

Marc


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 15:15:10 -0500
Subject: Varient for Starship Purchase/Economics

On 10/12/96 at 12:11 PM,  "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
said:

>There *is* however, an elegant solution to the problem that doesn't
>require major tinkering ... it involves a modification to the Starship
>acquisition procedure that most PCs will follow ... that is, getting it as
>a roll on the Benefit table.

>If you delink the roll on the table and the age of the ship you get a
>better possible outcome. 

>Consider this. The biggest component in running a Starship is the Loan
>Repayment. This is 1/240th of the value each month for 480 months (40
>years). This means that a 38 year old Captain can have a 30 year old ship
>and *still* be paying 1/240th of the value of it - even tho we're told
>financing a second hand vessel is difficult - as if *he* bought it 30
>years before, at age 8. Obviously not on. Sorry, won't wash.

Not this way...do most people *really* do it this way?

>So, what I suggest is this. Each time a ship is rolled, it indicates that
>*somehow* the new owner has managed to acquire 1/4 (around 8 MCr) worth of
>*equity* in a *new* version of said ship ... and that Repayments are based
>on the *remainder*.

Uh...I guess it's been too long since I revisited my assumptions.  I
switched to something very much like this *way* back in CT days.  It hasn't
occurred to me to even *look* at the way the books say to handle this.

Phil, one thing you haven't noted is that in many games there will be
several players with 1 or more Ship benefits.  This came up in the very
first game of Traveller I ran in '77.  I had two players with a +1Merchant
and a third with a +2Scout, and I *obviously* didn't want to have 3 ships
running around.  <g> So I made a command decision on the spot, and I've
stuck with it for the last..gee it's almost 20 years!

Special Mustering Out Benefit rules:

Merchant Benefit - 6MCR banked toward the purchace/outfitting of a
                   ship.
                   
Scout Benefit    - 3MCR banked toward the purchace/outfitting of a
                   ship, OR the use of a 100 ton Scout/Courier.

TAS Benefit      - TAS membership OR 1MCR banked toward the
                   purchace/outfitting of a ship.
                   
(The banked credit can *only* be spent on the purchase/outfitting of a
ship.  Optionally, vary the amount a couple of million either way depending
on the kind of ship you want the players to end up with.)

After all the players in the group have mustered out they can pool their
banked credit and buy into any kind of ship they want..or can find.  The
players have to roleplay finding a ship, getting a loan for the remainder
of the ship's worth, and outfitting/upgrading the ship.

The players can look for an NPC ship owner (TAS, bars, classified ads, or
contacts) that might offer to take on the PC's as partners in exchange for
their banked millions.  They can deal with a
shipyard for the purchase or a new or refitted ship.  They can also deal
with "Shady Sid's Ships"..ie a Ship broker <g>..to find a "deal" on an
older ship.  There have been a couple of times when the PCs were *really*
lucky and ended up owning a ship free and clear.

As for how they got all that money...I let *them* figure it out and tell
me, if they have to know, but usually they just go with the flow.  

About used ships...  Most of the time the players will buy an *old* ship..a
"fix'er upper"..from a ship broker or an independent
shipyard.  I've also had the players "salvage/recover" a lost ship, to
which they are granted title for all or most of the purchase price.  The
players never get *new* ships..too expensive, or just not available, and
they know the used ships they end up with will have problems that end up
costing them their credits, they know me! <g>

Oh yes, Ship prices!  I use a 100 year lifetime model for the ships and 50
years for most of their equipment, and depreciate everything straight line
(1%/year for the ship and 2%/year for equipment).  I *know* that's not
especially realistic, but it's easy.  If you want more realism, use the
"rule of 78's" as your depreciation model to drop the worth of ships on a
more realistic curve.

I've found that this technique will get a group into a situation where they
can at least break even.  It's important not to make it *too* easy on them,
but their should be valid ecomonic reasons for them to want to be ship
owners, to haul freight,  and transport passengers.  <g> 

Oh, and in my games the *fixed* cargo/passage rates apply only to the
Established Trade Routes where the governments (Imperium, Federation,
local) provide some level of protection and service for commercial
shipping.  Everywhere else, the prices will be higher to reflect the
increased danger and costs of operation.

Discussion?

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 12 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 545

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Auction Update
         2. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?
         4. USENET (for Joe Walsh)
         5. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
         6. Re: 2D Task System/Attributes
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #537
         8. Re: Ranged Combat
         9. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        10. Update #3: Odds & Ends Auction.
        11. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
        12. Re: [T96#537] Bureaucrats, etc.
        13. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
        14. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
        15. Revised Alternate World Gen Article

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:23:21 -0400
Subject: Auction Update

The closing date of the auction is Wednesday, October 16th.  

All bids are to be emailed to me directly and I will post current high bids
to this list .  

If anyone does not want me posting their email address on these updates,
let me know and I will assign you an anonymous #. 
					
						
						
1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir	$5.00	stormhvn@inreach.com				
						
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril	$5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
						
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	$4.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague	$7.00	sennafan@rust.net				
 						
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention 	$7.00	sennafan@rust.net				
 						
6.  Book 8: Robots	$20.00	balcom@dayton.net				
 						
7.Journal of the Travellers 'Aid Society No.5	$16.00	sennafan@rust.net				
 						
8.  JTAS No. 6	$6.00	ewatters@queens-belfast.ac.uk				
 						
9.  JTAS No.7 	$4.00	robert.brennan@isocor.ie				
 						
10. JTAS No.7	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
11.  JTAS No.11	$3.00	kozioi@nsca.uiuc.edu				
 						
12.  JTAS No. 12	$5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani 	$25.00	mark@dk-online.dk				
 						
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	$8.00	sennafan@rust.net				
					
16.  101 Vehicles	$12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit 	$8.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com				
 						
18.Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook $23.00  scrawlsfts@aol.com

19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	$9.00     anonymous1				
 						
20.  Far Traveller No. 1 	$8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com				
 						
21.  High Passage No. 2  	$15.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
22.  High Passage No. 3	$20.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
23.  High Passage No. 4 	$8.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
24.  High Passage No. 5 	$12.00	jlockett@io.com. 				
 						
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed. 	$10.00	goldendj@usa.net	

Recipients will be notified via email as to total cost with shipping.
Payment in U.S. funds only please (check or money order, no cash).
Items paid by check will be sent as soon as the check clears the bank. 
Items paid by money order will be shipped the next day.  
			
 Thanks, 
Nathan Mezel


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 15:47:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

On 10/11/96 at 06:43 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> It's acceptable if the ship hauls out of there at top speed. <g>

>Just what sort of "top speed" do your ships *have*?

The *pseudo*-acceleration ranges from 400 to 800g's, and they have a fixed
top end of 2,000 to 6,000kps.  Like I said, not your standard tech maneuver
drives.  <g> Before you knee-jerk a reaction to this, I've thought all this
through, and all the parts hang together. Yes, I have thought it *all*
through, including all the auxiliary issues!  I even have
*pseudo*-scientific explanations to handwave at the players if they need
them. <g>

BTW, I did say all this was radically non-canon didn't I?  <g>

The reason for the very close approach is to make jump inherently
dangerous, a misjump in one of my games can put the ship *in* the
star..sizzle.  <g> Most ships don't end up that close on a jump-in, and
they use coolant, reflective surfaces, and *speed* to burn out of "the
danger zone" anyway.

>> IAC, you're picking nits.  ;-> If you want to use the low
>> accleration thrusters, then make the jump in at 10 stellar
>> diameters.

>Not picking nits. Just rying to get folks to think thru the
>*consequences* of changes. Better that I do it than that some player asks
>an innocent question and you suddenly realize that you've blown it. 

You might want to *ask* if the poster has "thought through" the
consequences of their changes, rather than jumping all over them. <g> I'm
*sure* you aren't just slamming people's ideas with your replies, but it
sure reads like that.  Misunderstandings of purpose and intent can be a
problem when there is only written communication can't they?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:22:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?

On 12 Oct 96 at 16:21, FarFuture@aol.com spewed:

> My initial thought was that he was the 23rd generation of a family
> which can trace its history, lineage, etc, back to Terra.

This was the first thing that came to mind for me...

Descendant of the last Emperor of the Rule of Man perhaps???

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:48:37 -0400
Subject: USENET (for Joe Walsh)

        Joe, as part of your 'duties', I suggest you post any information
such as that you received from IG and posted here, to rec.games.frp.misc
and/or rec.games.frp.announce. The bozos over there do at least have a point
about the usefulness of updates for everyone, not just us here on the TML.
If you can't do this for some reason, maybe someone else could repost any
info you come up with.
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:56:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

 
> all their stats. (This is on page 59.) So, an average character with Str 7
> can carry 7 kg. (about 15 pounds), and the most he can carry is 14 kg.
> (about 31 pounds) unless he is in a military unit (it says nothing about
> USED to be in a military unit), and then he can carry 21 kg. (or about 46
> pounds).
>         I think this is a little low. By way of comparison, most characters
> in GURPS would have a 10 Str which is average. An average character in GURPS
> can carry 20 pounds with no effect, 40 with only slight effect, so on up to
> a maximum carry of
> 200 pounds (for very short distances). A Traveller character STR is
> encumbered by carrying a laser rifle even at Str A! Just think what a plasma
> rifle would do!

How much hiking do you do?  :-)

If I picked people at random off the street (ie: average) and put a
7kg pack, I'm sure they could do it, but even that would stress them
a little.  40 lbs would make most people off the street a wreak in a
half an hour.  I carry 40lbs. on weekend trips, and I'm happy to
ditch it when I set up camp and climb with closer to 10lbs.

When I saw it I found the T4 system quite reasonable.  Maybe we
could add a backpacking skill that would negate one of the minuses
for encumberance.  There is some skill involved in walking for
lengths oif time with a pack (particularly down hill).

I don't have it in front of me, but how long til you start feeling
the effects?  Again, 40lbs. is a lot (remember, too, that our
average strength of 7 includes males and females, so it might be
more like 8-9 for a male (on average).

Are those listed 7-14-21kgs with *no effect* for the different unit
types?  Hell, I carry a pack a lot, and it still has an effect, even
if it isn't a bad weight for me to carry.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 2D Task System/Attributes

Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net> says,

>Will give your system a look see
>It seems interesting.
>One question, do you use this sytem yourself (or plan to, or is this just a
>first playtest)?

This is a first playtest. My campaign isn't up and running yet (it's a
massive undertaking), so I've only been able to playtest my system a little
bit on my own. I expect it will require some tweaking, if not a complete
overhaul.

When the bugs are worked out I do intend to use it, because I have deep
reservations about T4's task system that can't be solved by simple
tweaking. I really hate the idea of totalling up a slew of dice for every
skill test; I especially hate half-dice. I don't care much if my
percentages closely match the T4 system or even the results of our recent
"probability survey", but I do want something that makes consistent sense
and is easy to use. I can't see how this can be achieved using a bell-curve
system.

I certainly understand those who advocate a RQ-style percentile system,
which would indeed make a lot of sense. Except of course that it wouldn't
be easy to adapt to T4. I don't want my campaign to drift so far from the
canonical Traveller Way that I can no longer make use of the published
materials without a lot of conversions.

I must also put in my vote *against* any system that adds *new* elements to
character generation - such as the "Aptitudes" someone's been proposing
here. This sounds to me like TNE-desease: stats, stats, and more stats!
This threatens the elegance of the CT/T4 system. (TNE fans of course will
disagree - that's one reason why they're TNE fans and I'm not. Diff'rent
stimulae for diff'rent sophonts and all that...)

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:55:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #537

Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> 
> Aha!  Chaosium are the secret masters!  The stars are right!  :-)
> 
> Either that, or R. Talsorian will soon do a Castle Falkenstein / Traveller
> crossover....

Castle Travellerstein . . . steampunk sf adventure in the 19th Century . . . .

"Who needs the social graces when you have a PGMP-14?"

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:01:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Ranged Combat

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>         Here's another idea from Al's House of House Rules:
> 
>         Ranged weapons have a Range stat. This is their effective range.
> each range has a number associated with it thusly:
>                 0 Contact
>                 1 Very Short
>                 2 Short
>                 3 Medium
>                 4 Long
>                 5 Very Long
> 
> If a weapon has a range of Short, it can shoot out to the limit of the Short
> range band with no penalty (45 meters). A weapon which is fired at a target
> beyond it's effective range takes a NEGATIVE modifier equal to the range
> number; the above pistol shooting at a target at Long range gets a -4 to
> it's target number. If said weapon is aimed, it gets it's inherent accuracy
> equal to the Range stat of it's weapon (+2), thus reducing that penalty to
> -2. Weapons take no penalty (and get only positive mods if aiming) at any
> range equal to or less than their listed Range stat.
>        We used this, and it cuts down somewhat on the effect of high
> attributes and eliminates the "I can hit this guy at 1500 meters with a Body
> Pistol?" effect.
>                 What do you guys think?
> _This_ guy thinks you have a _real_ good idea, Allen. I'm going to use it tomorrow.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:03:34 -0700
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > ("I _know_ the scenario says those TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this
> > platoon has Tech-8 gear. Now shut up while I roll where that HEAP RAM
> > grenade hit you . . .).
> 
> Shouldn't that be:
> 
> "I _know_ the briefing said these TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this
>  platoon has Tech-8 gear. If you survive the battle you can discuss it
>  to your heart's content with division intel..."
> This works for me, too.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Update #3: Odds & Ends Auction.

 
  Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
  - $12   scharlto@rtd.com
  
  Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
  - $16   scharlto@rtd.com
  
  Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
  - $16   scharlto@rtd.com
  
  The Flaming Eye
  - $15   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
  
  Traveller Adventure
  - $7    douglas@point.com
  
  Alien Module #8: Darrians
  - $17   beck@mail.all-net.net
  
  Challenge Magazine #25
  - $6    beck@mail.all-net.net
   
  Traveller Chronicle Magazine #9
  - $6    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
  
  2300AD - S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans
  - $6    scharlto@rtd.com
  
  Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"
  - $7    scharlto@rtd.com
  
  Laserburn Sci. Fi. Combat Rules
  - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
  
  New Additions:
  
  White Dwarf Magazine #13 - "Suggested additions to Traveller, Part 1"
  - $2    douglas@point.com
  
  White Dwarf Magazine #16 - "Suggested  additions to Traveller, Part 4"
  - $2    douglas@point.com
 
  White Dwarf Magazine #17 - "Sable Rose Affair" (Trav. adv.)
  - $2    douglas@point.com
 
  White Dwarf Magazine #28 - "On Target" (Rules addition), "Sorry" (Trav. adv.)
  - $2    douglas@point.com
 
  Voyages SF Magazine #11 
  - $1    scharlto@rtd.com
  
  Voyages SF Magazine #13  - "Exercise" (Trav. fiction)
  - $3    scharlto@rtd.com - "Katlin C. Buchannon" (Trav. starship/deckplans)                      
                           - "Sanity In Space" (Rules addition)
  
  Different Worlds Magazine #23 - "Terraforming, Part 2" (Rules addition)
  - $1    scharlto@rtd.com  

  Gameplay Magazine #5
  (Good condition)
  
  Gameplay Magazine #7
  (Good condition)
  
  2300AD - Kafer Dawn
  GDW
  
  Tales of the Concordat #2: "Voyage of the Planetslayer"
  Jefferson Swycaffer
  
  Tales of the Concordat #3: "Revolt and Rebirth"
  Jefferson Swycaffer
  
  Planet in Peril
  O'Neill & Mohan
  
  Sniper! - Special forces
  SPI
  
 

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

with.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
That's how the article stands at this microsecond.  If any of
the authors would like to change their contributions, identify
your contribution and let me know what changes to make.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#537] Bureaucrats, etc.

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes...

T::>Hm.  At the risk of loading up too much work for myself, here are the
 ::>CT/MT/TNE careers I've converted to T4.  With a bit of luck I'll have them
 ::>converted to HTML and posted on my web site sometime this weekend:

 Rob, if you'll also forward them to the Freelance Traveller
 address (or send me a URL and I'll scarf them myself), I'll add
 them to FT...

 That reminds me; I have to find and update my Cop career for
 T4.  That'll go up on FT, too.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis.





------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

2-5, +1 if 6-9, -1 if A. Other modifiers can be used too: a +1
for worlds settled or influenced by the Ancients, First
Imperium, or Rule of Man (old colonies or terraforming efforts).
If Stellar Types are being used, an additional modifier for the
suitability of the star might not be a bad idea. Restrict to the
range 0-F.

The resources score can be used to justify settlements on
otherwise inhospitable worlds, and should serve as a positive DM
for population. The rationale is that there is some type of
valuable resource present (which doesn't otherwise show on the
UWP), and therefore it is likely that someone has come (despite
the hardship) to exploit it. A suggestion for interpreting
resources scores:

Resource Score          Interpretation
- ---------------------------------
0                       Barren
1-4                     Poor
5-8                     Moderate
9-C                     Rich
D or greater            Extremely Rich

Poor: Basic chemical diversity necessary to support indigenous
life. Otherwise, no claim to fame.

Moderate: One solid natural-resource industry. Roll on table 10a
of the MegaTraveller Referee's Manual. Re-roll 34-54 if life < 4
(see above). Re-roll 65 if life < 5. Re-roll 55-56 if life < 8.
Re-roll 61-64 if life < 9. Re-roll 66 if life < A.

Rich: Two natural-resources industries, one of which commands
strong subsector-wide influence.

Extremely Rich: Three natural-resource industries, one of which
commands sector-wide influence.

Note: The GM should translate natural-resource industries into
their manufacturing/processing (2nd stage) industries as seems
appropriate. See MegaTraveller Referee's Manual (pg52) for
possibilities.

Another note: Under this system, the resource statistic is
rolled before the life statistic, and the life statistic is
rolled before the specific industries are determined. A better
method would be to select a resource type (using Table 10a, or
some other source), and roll 1d6. This is the "amount" of this
resource, but not more than the resource score of the world. The
process would repeat until the entire resource score is
accounted for. For example:

Resource score (2D) = 10
1st Resource: #61, Livestock. Amount: 5
2nd Resource: #42, Plants (wood). Amount: 4
3rd Resource: #63, Livestock. Amount: 1 (a 3 was rolled).

So, our hypothetical world produces Livestock at Level 6 (the
two livestock resources add, at the referee's discretion), and
Plants (wood) at Level 4.

Comparing all of the scores and types within the subsector and
within the sector will reveal the primary producers of
particular goods.

The Life score can be used to get a "feel" for the native
biosphere, and to gauge whether or not there is a native race to
consider. One suggestion (for a campaign with few advanced
"minor" races) was:

0: Sterile
1: Amino Acids
2: Single-celled organisms
3: Multicellular bacteria
4: Simple vegetation
5: Complex vegetation
6: Microscopic insects & sea life
7: Macroscopic insects
8: Macroscopic sea life
9: Land/Air-based herbivores
A: Land/Air-based predators
B: Large/Complex predators
C: Tool use
D: Fire use
E: Agriculture
F: Symbology (full sentience, TL=0)

D, E, and F may be given higher degrees of technology. While the
use of tools and fire is pretty much a clincher for sentient or
semi-sentient creatures, by the time they are practicing
agriculture the society is pretty much at TL-0.

These distinctions should really be made as part of the details
for the native sentient or semi-sentient race. The exact stage
of development should probably be determined by the referee
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

People will attain the resources (technology) that they need to
survive, such that those resources are available. If you're
really sure that you're going to live on Sonthert/Lanth, then
you're going to make sure you have the technology to survive on
a near-vacuum planet. (Sonthert, alas, is rated TL3.)

The philosophy of high and low tech worlds living side by side
is also questionable. It can be argued that it's possible for a
short duration such as a few decades, or given special political
or social circumstances. But in general, over the course of
centuries, eventually there will either be a leveling process or
the low Technological Level regions will gain in technology.

The counter-argument to Jim's 1st Law is that all things are not
equal. Otherwise, why would anyone live in Chicago when they
could move to Hawaii? (Most people would class the latter as
nicer than the former!) The answer is economics. People are too
poor to move, don't have skills, have family ties. Moreover, if
there are no jobs at the new planet, who is going to move there?
Equally, the world profiles don't tell the whole story. Just
because a place has a "nice" profile - average size, average
atmosphere, average hydrographics -- doesn't mean the rest of it
is fun. The planet could be too hot, too cold, inhabited by
vorpal bunnies, or whatever.

It is also possible that "blue-sky" Terra-norm worlds might in
some cases be more difficult to settle than less inviting worlds
- -- there'll be life down there, and who knows what might do to
prospective settlers? Vacuum worlds are much more predictable,
and with proper planning might also be easier on the equipment.
So more people might settle there, especially if the colony is
well established -- a vacuum world colony interior can be much
more sophisticated and spacious than, say, Moonbase Alpha.

Jim's Modified Main-world Generation Procedure:

Changes from the standard procedure are *italicized*.

World Size. Roll 2d6-2.

Atmosphere Type. Roll 2d6-7+World Size.
if World Size is 0 then Atmosphere Type 0.
confine range to 0-F.

Hydrographics Percentage. Roll 2d6-7+*World Size*.
if Atmosphere Type is 1 or less, then DM -4
if World Size is *1 or less*, then Hydrographics Percentage 0
if Atmosphere Type is A-C then DM -4
confine range to 0-A

Population Exponent. Roll 2d6-2.
*if World Size is 2 or less, DM -1*
*if Atmosphere Type is 3 or less, DM -3*
*if Atmosphere Type is A, DM -2*
*if Atmosphere Type is B, DM -3*
*if Atmosphere Type is C, DM -4*
*if Atmosphere Type is 6, DM +3*
*if Atmosphere Type is 5 or 8, DM +1*
*if Hydrographics Percentage is 0 and Atmosphere Type is 3 or greater, DM -2*
*confine range to 0-A*

Starport Type. Roll 2d6.
*if Population Exponent is 0 then Starport Type X*
*if Population Exponent is 1, DM +2*
*if Population Exponent is 2, DM +1*
*if Population Exponent is 6-9, then DM -1*
*if Population Exponent is A, then DM -2*
*confine range to A-X*

Government Type. Roll 2d6-7+Population Exponent.
*if population exponent is 0 then government 0*
*confine range to 0-F*

Law Level. Roll 2d6-7+Government Type.
*if government type is 0 then law level 0*
*confine lower bound of range to 0*

Technological Level. Roll d6.
Modify as per the standard chart.
*if Population Exponent 0 then Technological Level 0*
*otherwise, if Hydrographic Percentage is 0 or A and Population
Exponent is at least 6, then Technological Level must at least
be 4.*
*if Atmosphere Type is 4, 7 or 9, then Technological Level must
be at least be 5.*
*if Atmosphere Type is 3 or less, or A-C, then Technological
Level must at least be 7.*
*if Hydrographic Percentage is A, then Technological Level must
be at least be 7.*
confine lower bound of range to 0

Some example UWPs from this system:

X211000-0    E475100-8    D86A6BB-7    X410000-0    A410446-B
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

C66266B-6    E98A237-8    X573220-5    A748483-C    A85A766-C
A867657-B    C310235-7    B220532-D    X473000-0    A665ADD-E
A8599A8-C    C738475-8    A5588B7-9    C634523-8    B332334-9
D545456-5    C575553-7    C110221-8    A667785-7    E75A466-4
D795679-5    C754575-9    E678112-6    X311000-0    X528211-8
B471322-B    C874663-6    D453643-4    C668989-9    B5438AE-8
C87A564-6    C474278-8    X226000-0    C410230-7    X303156-8
B9B4230-7    A5949C9-A    A685876-7    C594100-8    C539343-7
X9A8000-0    X120000-0    B457867-6    B2518CD-B    A631453-F

Note that there are some conspicuous differences between this
data and "normal" UWP listings. There are more uninhabited or
very low-population star systems under the modified rules. This
will probably bring down the average starport rating for any
given region. Also, there are very few low-tech star systems.
The lowest here are both TL4, and in both cases, they've got a
breathable atmospheres. As expected, the less-hospitable worlds
tend to have lower populations and seedier starports. More
surprising is the existence of several lush (atmos=6) worlds
with under ten million inhabitants. The system usually has high
populations clustered on those worlds. However, when we look at
the highest population world in this run, we see that it has a
standard atmosphere, so these results are fairly plausible.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Zeitlin's Theory of Government Technological Interference

It can be argued that law level will have an effect on tech
level. The more oppressive a society is, the less likely it is
that geniuses will appear and create the new technology. Earth
history supports this view; the cultures that made the largest
advances in technology were the ones with high levels of
personal freedom. Certainly, other, less free cultures may do a
better job of exploiting some forms of technology, but they'll
probably acquire it from a culture that is more free. One would
hardly expect a totally oppressive theocracy to be innovative...

At No Law, there is no way of ensuring that the person who
develops new technology will be able to profit from it. If
something is good, it will be used by anyone who can get their
hands on it, and without paying. This reduces the incentive to
research.

At Low Law, there may be some protection, so there will be some
innovation. However, the government will normally not be
powerful or influential enough to make large investments in
research; this will offset part of the benefit gained from the
protection afforded intellectual property.

At Moderate Law, you will typically have a government that has
the power, influence, and revenue to invest in research, and
sufficient freedom of information exchange to make it profitable
(in terms of results). However, at this stage, the government
will probably have a tendency to want to direct the research,
rather than dropping the cash on the table, sitting back, and
saying, "O.K. folks, let's see what you can come up with."

This directive tendency will continue at higher law levels, and
with the continuing decrease in personal freedom and freedom of
information exchange, and increasing compartmentalization of
research, the return on investment will typically drop heavily.
At some point, the government will probably decide that research
is unproductive of results, and tech will stagnate (Look at the
USSR on Terra in -2531 - most of their technology was acquired
through intelligence gathering).

Thus the suggested modifiers to TL based on Law Level:

Law Level                    Modifier
- -------------------------------------
No Law or Moderate Law       none
Low Law                      +1
High Law                     -1
Extreme Law (A-C)            -2
Extreme Law (D-E)            -3
Extreme Law (F-G)            -4
Extreme Law (H or greater)   -5

In a similar vein, one can also suggest a new table for the
effect of government type on tech level.  Note that this table
is intended to replace the Government Type modifier to the Tech
Level table in the basic rules:

Government Code    Modifier
- ---------------------------
0                  none
1                  +3
2                  +2
3                  none
4                  +1
5                  +2
6                  -2
7                  See note
8                  -1
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 12 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 546

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
         2. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
         3. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
         4. Niven
         5. URL: All the Probabilites
         6. Re: Starship Economics Problems
         7. Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?
         8. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
         9. Re: The Central Supply Catalog?
        10. Re: USENET (for Joe Walsh)
        11. Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson
        12. Genetics
        13. Re: Governing in Traveller
        14. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        15. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

9                  -1
A                  none
B                  -1
C                  none
D                  -3

Note: For balkanized worlds, generate the national governments
of interest, and use the above table. If the table specifies a
negative modifier, change the modifier to be one unit closer to
"none" to account for intelligence (espionage) effects (i.e., a
- -1 modifier becomes "none", a -2 modifier becomes -1, and so
on).

Rationale:
+0 modifiers - When there is no formal government structure, any
new technology developed is unprotected, save by individual
effort. In this event, even if the technology is developed, it
will be slow to be released, because of concerns of the
developer profiting from it (i.e. the developer wants to; others
may be more willing to steal the technology than buy it).

In a benign oligarchy, or a charismatic dictatorship, it is less
likely that those in power will hear about good ideas that are
not developed within the governmental structure, thus reducing
the chance of advancement. Such a government, however, will not
necessarily reject an idea if it hears about it.

+ modifiers - A company has the utmost interest in development
of technology that will allow them to achieve higher return on
investment. Ideas will be actively sought after, and explored
for their profit-making potential. Democracies have a high level
of personal freedom and will tend to allow ideas to percolate
around without interference. Coupled with laws protecting
intellectual property, and the fact that the government will
generally be pretty busy trying to prostitute itself to the
special interests acting in the name of "the people," there will
probably be significant opportunity for ideas to be pursued
despite theoretical restrictions on the use of government funds.
The less a government has to deal directly with the people, the
more it will be able to direct research, thus the lower DM for a
representative democracy vs. a participatory democracy.

- - modifiers - The fundamental obstacles to technological
progress in these governments are multiple: insularity from
people outside the government, doctrinaire educational policies,
rewarding of conformity over individual initiative, personal
paranoia (in the case of dictatorships), conservatism (including
but not limited to religious orthodoxy and extremism)... All of
these combine, to varying degrees, and result in an inability to
develop ideas once they are presented, and a further reluctance
for individuals to present their ideas for fear of being
condemned or persecuted for them (recall Nazi Germany's attitude
towards "Jewish Physics").

Note that these are only guidelines; fiddle with them to suit
your needs. Some of the factors cited for negative modifiers
might be at work in governments that have positive modifiers,
and vice-versa.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Also, star type does affect the rest of planetary generation;
the combination of M-V stars and hospitable (even agricultural)
worlds isn't entirely realistic. So if we do add stellar data in
for 'feel', we should take care not to make the same mistake as
GDW: i.e., we should first generate star-type according to known
stellar frequency data and then generate the mainworld, applying
modifiers to the UWP data as applicable. This would probably
make "inhospitable" worlds even more common than in the modified
system above.

Life and Resources:
One way of expanding upon the limited set of generation rules
would be to extend the number of statistics to include:

Resources (independent) - an indicator of the available natural
resources on the world. A high value indicates extensive,
high-quality, and/or readily exploitable resources (mineral,
fossil, vegetable, or animal - this is non-specific, except that
it indicates the presence or absence of resources which
otherwise aren't shown in the UWP). Throw 2d6-2 for Resources;
modifiers subject to Referee whim (for example, the Spinward
Marches is known to be deficient in heavy elements; perhaps a
modifier of -1 to the whole Marches to reflect this?). Restrict
the result to the range 0-F.

Life (dependent on atmosphere and hydrosphere) - A general index
to the prevalence and variety of life on the world. A low score
would indicate a barren world (your average asteroid or iceball)
while high numbers indicate a thriving and diverse biosphere
Throw 2d6-2; DM-8 for Vacuum, Trace, or Insidious atmospheres,
- -6 for Very Thin or Corrosive, -4 for Exotic, -2 for Dense/High,
Ellipsoid, or Thin/Low, No modifier for Thin Tainted, Standard
Tainted, or Dense Tainted, and +2 for Thin, Standard, or Dense.
Also apply a hydrosphere modifier: -4 if 0, -2 if 1, None if
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

I've gotten a copy of the article below and started modifying it
for Freelance Traveller.  I need some information from the list:

First, if you're one of the authors, please identify your
contribution to the article.  I've identified mine and Jim
Vassilakos's; I'm not familiar enough with other people's
writing styles and thought processes to be able to even identify
where one contribution ends and the next begins.

Second, I need current e-mail addresses for everyone below.
Mine is correct; I haven't changed it.  I'm pretty sure that
both Jim's and Derek's have changed, but I'm not sure to what;
the others I haven't heard from or seen posts from in quite some
time.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

Alternative World Generation systems for Traveller

By Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Jim Vassilakos <jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu>
Derek Wildstar <wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu>
Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
Bruce Pihlamae <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au>
Steve Bonneville <bonn0015@gold.tc.umn.edu>

[Editor's Note: This document was originally written with the
_Traveller:_The_New_Era_ world generation sequence in mind. It
has been updated by Jeff Zeitlin to reflect changes from those
systems to _Marc_Miller's_Traveller_.]

(r) Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
Enterprises, (c)1996. All rights reserved. Use of the trademark
in this document is not intended to imply any official
connection with the holder of the trademark or any licensee, nor
to infringe upon or devalue the trademark.

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Jim Vassilakos's Psychological Effects of Planetary Development

The order in which UWP statistics are generated is non-intuitive:

1.Starport Class                5.Population Exponent
2.World Size                    6.Government Type
3.Atmosphere Type               7.Law Level
4.Hydrographic Percentage       8.Technological Level

Why is the starport generated first? It would be more sensible
for starport type to be determined by traffic, and traffic to be
determined by population. Consider generating starport type
after population. Making this one change, look at cause and
effect in the rules:

Statistic                       Modifiers
- --------------------------------------------------------
World Size                      no modifiers
Atmosphere Type                 Size
Hydrographic Percentage         Atmosphere and Size
Population Exponent             no modifiers
Starport Type                   no modifiers
Government Type                 Population Exponent
Law Level                       Government Type
Technological Level             Everything except law level

Regardless of its features, the primary world or asteroid belt
in one system is just as likely to have a population of x as the
primary world or asteroid belt in any other system. This is less
than obvious.

Think about it. You roll up some dinky little ice-ball as the
main world in your star system -- surely the fact that this tiny
lump of rock has no atmosphere, that it has no liquid water, and
that it hasn't even a modicum of elbow room, makes it less
likely to have a population of 50 billion people than the garden
terra-prime paradise just a couple of parsecs down the road.
Yes... you can explain it away. You can say, "Oh, there's this
wonderful lanthanum mine." Or you can say. "These people live
here... because it's their home" (and then smile convincingly).
But it doesn't work. This isn't a little inconsistency. This is
a whopping big one.

Jim's 1st Law on main-world generation:
Given that everything else is more or less equal, people will
tend to migrate to the place that is "nicer". Worlds with a nice
atmosphere, some actual water, and so forth, will attract large
populations which will in turn build decent starports. Planets
that aren't so nice (you know the ones I'm talking about) will
not attract people, and hence are unlikely to have lots of
traffic or well-equipped starports.

[Note that `people' is implicitly humans -- not necessarily the
case on all worlds.]

Jim's 2nd Law:
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

during the "world building" stage of generating planetary
details.

It might well be better to have the Life score as independent of
the natives' TL as possible. The Life score can be used to
determine whether or not there *are* natives, but their TL is
more properly the province of the world's tech level.

Alternatively:
Life Score
0 = Sterile (although "organic" compounds may be present).
1 = Pre-Life (sophisticated "organic" compounds, precursors to life).
2+ Some Life Present (at least single-"cell" simple organisms).

As the Life score increases, the number and size of the
ecosystems increase, as does the number and complexity of the
organisms which can be found there. Remember that this applies
equally to native life-forms as well as "imported" forms (due to
activity of the Ancients, colonization, or simply by accident).
The minima for native development of a given complexity can be
figured out from the table below.

Whether or not you apply modifiers to the Life score based on
the stellar zone the planet is in (inner, habitable, or outer)
depends on your views on really outrageous biochemistries. If
you believe that sentient life can evolve in ecospheres in gas
giants or on ultra-cold (or ultra-hot) worlds, the zone
modifiers should be no more than -2 or -4. In this case, I'd
suggest using a -3 for Inner and Outer Zone worlds, and a
modifier of 0 for worlds in the habitable zone. This is probably
compatible with the Classic Traveller vision of the universe,
with intelligent gas-giant dwellers and all sorts of exotic
life-forms, and sentient life-forms are all over the place,
although many of them aren't really "life as we know it".

While the above pretty accurately describes the way I feel, I
certainly understand if this isn't everybody's cup of tea. For a
lot less life in general, and a lot less intelligent life, try
the following modifiers:

- -1 if not a Main Sequence (size V) star
- -1 if not a Spectral Class F or G star
- -6 if in Inner Zone
- -4 if in Outer Zone

This should cause the most life to cluster around the habitable
zone of class F and G Main Sequence stars (in other words, stars
like the Sun or a little brighter). Thus, most life will be
"life as we know it", and will be much less prevalent than in
the first method.

Now throw 2d6 and subtract the results from the Life Score:
0- No significant native organisms (all "boring" or imported).
1 = "Interesting" native single-cell organisms.
2 = "Interesting" native microscopic (multicellular) organisms.
3 = "Interesting" native plants (macroscopic).
4 = "Interesting" native animals (non-sentient).
5 = Complex native ecosystem (multiple "Interesting" organisms).
6+ Native Sentient or near-Sentient life (always interesting).

The second throw should probably be part of the "world building"
procedure, and not part of the basic generation.

Once the throw is made, the referee will then have to decide (as
part of the detailed world description) what the "interesting"
things about the planet are. The followings are minima for
native life forms:
0 = Sterile
1 = Pre-Life
2 = Life (maybe even pre-cellular life)
3 = Single-Celled organisms
4 = Multicellular organisms
5 = "Plant" life
6 = Animal life
7 = Complex ecosystems
8 = MINIMUM for native sentient organisms.

Please note that it is possible for a world to have a Life score
of 12, but not have any "interesting" native life. One
possibility is a world that has been colonized, and the
colonist's imported plants and animals have out-competed the
native ecosystem, which as become nearly extinct. This is a
definite possibility, particularly on worlds that have been
civilized for thousands of years. Another possibility is a world
that is covered with oceans, which are literally filled with an
amazing diversity of single-celled organisms. Literally every
square centimeter of the world's surface would have something
living on it. Although such a world might have a relatively high
Life rating, it may only rate as having "interesting"
single-celled organisms. For figuring out a world in the context
of a long-standing interstellar community, you can use Resources
to represent the attractiveness of the world to the "outside"
starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be used as a basis
for determining whether there is a "native" culture to interact
(Continued to next message)

- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:07:50 -0700
Subject: Niven

Someone said:

>BTW, as long as we are talking about GP#2 hulls, how about having it be
>Beowulf Scheaffer and that little ship he was piloting around the
>neutron star? Disable the bomb in time and you'll have one *nasty*
>combat vessel on your hands.

The pocket battleship was in "The Borderland of Sol", the ship in "Neutron
Star" was unarmed.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:06:55 -0500
Subject: URL: All the Probabilites

For those of you who are interested, you may now find a complete 
table giving all the probabilties for a successfull task roll using 
anything from 1D up to 10.5D with T4 definitions of Spectacular 
Success and Spectacular Failure.

Use URL

"http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/traveller/1D-10.5D.html" for the page itself

*or*

"http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/traveller/".


I've got a few thoughts for a variant task system which is modelled 
on the system presented in T4. I'll post about that later. ;-)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 19:09:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

Phillip McGregor wrote:

>I really think that we *have* to assume that the comment [in T4] about Life
>Support costs being *double* for two occupying the one statement is
>*wrong* if there is to be any hope at all of making the starship economics
>system work. At worst I would suggest that it should be no more than +50%
>(or +1000 Cr per fortnight, 500 Cr per week).
>
>Then we have to assume (I feel) that whatever Life Support actually
>represents *cannot* be included in operating costs for crew quarters,
>assume that it is, in fact, part of their salary package (like "room &
>board"). Otherwise it opens a whole can of worms!

Hmmm. IIRC, the rule in CT is something like, "Each stateroom on a
starship, occupied or not, involves a constant overhead of Cr2000 per
trip made." [CT/B2:P6&14]

In MT this changed to "if occupied" along with an explicit statement
that double occupancy requires twice the normal cost. [MT/IE:P89/RM:P82]

I've always taken both to mean "per two weeks" since the expectation
is one jump and one week in port per fortnight.

A two person limit per stateroom makes sense when there _is_ a
provision that staterooms include all important life support
facilities.

The standard Traveller starship designs have always forced their
merchant owners to find clever ways to stay ahead of the bank.


The more interesting question to me is "What custom merchant ship
design can be created that would maximize profit given the economic 
model of trade in the Imperium, since the standard designs don't?"


Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Roger Howe <rghowe@ozemail.com.au>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:00:07 +1100
Subject: Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> 
> My initial thought was that he was the 23rd generation of a family which can
> trace its history, lineage, etc, back to Terra.
> 
> Marc

My thougth was that he could trace a direct line through the last Emperor of the Second Imperium, a more valid 
claim than Cleon.  What then, would be his response to Cleon's actions/declaration?  Acceptance, apathy, 
resistance, would Cleon know, care, pay him off?  Perhaps an internal thron in Cleon's side?

Roger Howe

ps. this is my first post after a while of lurking. Don't go to hard on me, no built up resistance to flames 
yet.


------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:22:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

Allen wrote:

>We ran into a serious difficulty last night while playing...

[snip]

>It involves the encumbrance rules.

[snip]

>I think [encumbrance per the rules] is a little low.

[snip]

It seems to me that the encumbrance rules account for both weight and
bulk reasonably well.

Take a typical U.S. policeman as an example. A policeman in an urban
area is likely to wear a uniform (ordinary clothes) and a bullet
proof vest. An equipment belt worn around the waist (over the
clothes and pants belt) will probably have holster & handgun,
handcuffs w/ belt pouch & key, radio w/ holder, one or two spare
clips of ammunition (in belt pouches), possibly a small flashlight in
its own holder and perhaps a small can of pepper spray in another
holder. I don't have an exact weight figure for these items, but I
can tell you it's heavy for a belt full of equipment. An equipment
belt is pretty thick and relatively inflexible when compared to an
ordinary belt, too.

Suppose this officer also has a twin that's a "bad guy". The bad guy
probably wears ordinary clothes, might carry a small handgun or other
weapon, and is probably wearing athletic shoes. (The good guy wears
ordinary leather shoes. Nice shine, of course. ;-)

If the good guy has to chase the bad guy down an alley, through
backyards, and over a 10 foot (oops, I mean 3m) chainlink fence, who
is likely to have an easier time of it?

It's probably a good thing that the good guy has a bunch of his
buddies helping out. :-)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:22:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Central Supply Catalog?

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> John R. Snead wrote:
> > 
> > Does anyone know if the upcoming Central Supply Catalog will be just for
> > Year 0 (ie nothing higher than TL 12, or if it will also include all TL
> > 13-15/16 gadgets and vehicles that we all know and love?
> 
> Better chech with Joe on this, but I thought I read (in all the hoop-la before T4 came 
> out) that the catalog will contain EVERY item ever published in a GDW adventure or 
> supplement.  Hmm.  Maybe I saw this on IG's web page, and maybe I'm wrong all together.

That's what I'd heard, right from the start.  I've got it on my list of 
Q's for Ken, though.  Hope to be able to call him on Thursday (sorry for 
the delay - parents visiting and all).

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:34:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: USENET (for Joe Walsh)

On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:

>         Joe, as part of your 'duties', I suggest you post any information
> such as that you received from IG and posted here, to rec.games.frp.misc
> and/or rec.games.frp.announce. The bozos over there do at least have a point
> about the usefulness of updates for everyone, not just us here on the TML.
> If you can't do this for some reason, maybe someone else could repost any
> info you come up with.

Allen,

I've thought about this, and I'm still undecided.  On the one hand, 
you're right, letting them know such information is the right thing to 
do.  On the other hand, I don't want 999,999 people emailing me about 
this stuff.  I have my hands full as it is. :)

Ideas?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:49:06 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Cannon Bashers vs. Leonard Erickson

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> You end up having to make other assumptions (changing the 100-diamter
> rule, weird rules about jumping towards masses...) to make it work,
> which have other consquences...

	The idea in my group was vice versa. We intended to make
	higher jump ship more economical, we intended to increase
	in system transfer, and extend jump transfer.

	All in our group started with C64/Elite as a background,
	where jump takes no time and in system transpher to a starport
	is long and dangerous. It was also our intension to make
	jump calculations more complicateded and interesting, so
	they can fit with our trade rules adepted from Elite.

	These are house rules and we know that, we have a lot of
	other house rules for historical reasons, and I dont think
	that we change them to become canon.

	As we rotate the refree job, discussing rules is a very
	important part in our group.  We are not playing
	Marc Millers Traveller but Vegesack Traveller ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:54:37 +0000 ()
Subject: Genetics

Moin Erickson,

> Please note that there is strong evidence that humans, chimps, and
> gorillas are interfertile, though no one is about the try the
> experiment, even in vitro.

Moin Cmdr Hold'Em,

> My sources (am trying to find names and titles) say even though we are 99.5%+ 
> genetically identical there is no possible way to be interfertile

	In the midle age a woman was burned because she got a baby
	from a chimp here in Bremen (my home town). There is a film
	about that event called "Der Affe Gottes". I dont know if it
	was translated.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:18:30 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Governing in Traveller

Moin Lance Robert Blyth,

> Question:  How does the Imperium (pick your milieu) govern?  I have used
> two possibilities in campaigns:

	We have a third : Domain Autonomie

	This would work as Domain Autonomie works in Individual Network
	(a german internet society) where the domains (e.g. .north.de)
	are internal autonomous, but part of the IN.

	We have classical domain lords, we have democratic domains,
	we even have social(ist) domains. Each domain only has to
	tell who many sites it has, and pays a fee for them. Also
	any domain has a representativ for general IN discussions.

	I would think that all worlds will be ruled autonomous
	by the local lords or democratic elected rulers. The imperium
	only would have burocrats there. The only execption are
	interdicted worlds wich are ruled by foraign lords.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:36:30 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> Great. The Sun is size 432. That means you have to get out to 520 light
> *hours* to make a safe jump. Or only 517 light hours to make a
> "dangerous" one.

	How said that (our) sun has a size of 432 ? 
	In our system planetoids have a size from 0-2, planets a size
	from 3-10, gas giants a size of 11-15 while stars have these
	sizes.

	 	O	24
	 	B	23
	 	A	22
	 	F	21
	 	G	20
	 	K	19
	 	M	18
	 	R	17
		N	16

	So a jump to Sol would exit 4000 light seconds, which is
	fairly hot.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:47:29 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Moin Eris Reddoch,

> The Sun is size *8* in Traveller terms, isn't it?  

	sorry terra is size 8, there is no canon rule IIRC, to calulate
	the size-number of a star ;-(

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #546
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 13 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 547

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Revised Alternate World Gen Article
         2. Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)
         3. Re: T4 still not in Germany
         4. Still running TNE
         5. Re: M. Falcon
         6. Re: Starship Economics Problems
         7. Still using TNE
         8. Publishing dates/Shipping time
         9. Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #524
        11. Frank Repzinski
        12. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
        13. Re: News From Imperium Games
        14. Why did those damnable unexplored Core worlds move?
        15. Re: Unexplored worlds in Year 0.
        16. Re: To Marc Miller
        17. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
        18. Re: Genetics
        19. Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details
        20. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        21. Re: Starship Economics Problems
        22. Re: IG FAQ
        23. Re: DGP Favorites

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 19:38:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

Jeff-

Many of your ideas here are good, but the TL comments all postulate that
the inhabitants of the various world are human.  A world with
Hydrographics A could easily be TL 1 if the main inhabitants were sentient
dolphins (or the local equivilant).  Similarly, a sentient species which
evolved in an ammonia atmosphere would have no trouble living on such a
planet and could be any tech level desired.  The Imperium only makes sense 
to me if there are lots of aliens (I believe the published figure is 400+ 
separate species in the Imperium).

OTOH, your TL limits of Vacuum worlds make sense, since there are only 
going to be *so* many vacuum dwelling life-forms.

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:59:19 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

Moin Phillip McGregor,

> What are the actual costs involved in starship operations? Well, we know =
> that life support costs are 2000 Cr per stateroom per two weeks (and the =
> components - presumably including food - take no space on the ship!), =

	Sorry 2MCr per passenger for life support ;-( 
	I dont recall CT/MT but TNE states that these 2MCr are
	per Passenger+Crew ;-(

> The Free Trader: An Example
> Far Trader 1.0

	In my scenarios, the main lines are ocupied by the big
	companies running 600+ liners and carriers. Free and
	Far traders do make their profid with dealing in the
	unusual way, so the probately need a FPP and weapons.

	They are trying to sell "water to the deserts", they
	can not compete with the big companies and their 1MCr
	per disp.ton price. This is canon since CT "traders
	and gunboats"

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:08:30 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: T4 still not in Germany

Moin V.A.G.,

> I keep reading you guys complaining about not yet receiving your 
> hardbound. Well just wait a little longer... it'll be there 
> eventually.

	on the bookfair I've talked to FanPro who is one the
	two main games wholesalers in germany, and was the one
	who translated CT. They dosnt seem to be very interested
	in T4, they are still sitting on a stock of MT&TNE materials.

	I've talked to the two game stores here in bremen, and
	they dont want to order T4 on stock.

	So I wouldnd thing T4 will be in german soon ;-(

	But - My company is a book importer, we have a shipper
	in NY, and perhaps we can make a german order over this
	shipper. BTW we can deliver to ANY bookstore (not gamestore)
	in german over KNO/KV bookwagon.

	I always hate the german FanPro/WDS cartell for their
	prices and service, perhaps we can beat them with importing
	T4 on our own.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 04:33:03 +0000 ()
Subject: Still running TNE

Hy Folks,

	I'm still running TNE, and anybody who is also infected
	with virus, should take a look at my home page, especialy
	the shipyard contain 3 new designs.

	BTW: As usual anybody should feel free to improve my grammar
	and spelling.

	I'm also thinking about colapsing the sector data, and scanning
	the Regency Sourcbook, Path Of Tears and Vampire Fleets. Has
	anybody made some pocket empires I should include ? Has anybody
	allready scanned the canon TNE sectors ?

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:53:35 -0400
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson) wrote: 

"3.	MILLENIUM FALCON

Actually, _Aslan and Solomani_ contained a Solomani ship that looked very
like the Falcon. I believe that the Falcon, using the _StarWars_
measurements, translates to 300 Traveller tons."

300 dtons just didn't seem right to me.  The various deckplans of the
Millennium Falcon I've seen make the ship a appear to be a fair amount
smaller than either a Far of Free trader (both displacing 200 dtons).  So,
I sat down with my old model of the Millennium Falcon  and after a bit of
measuring and calculating (using 1:76 as the scale of the model, which
gives the Falcon an overall length of 35 meters) I came up with a
displacement of around 150 dtons.  Now I'll admit my calculations were a
little sloppy and I was drinking a Guinness, but even then I don't think
the ship can be larger than 200 dtons.  I anyone wants I can try and post
the measurements and calculations tomorrow.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 05:10:06 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

Moin David Blustein,

> The more interesting question to me is "What custom merchant ship
> design can be created that would maximize profit given the economic 
> model of trade in the Imperium, since the standard designs don't?"

	hm tech level 15, a black globe, decent sensors, a missile
	turret for SandMans (sand missile to make the enemy blind)
	and a big cargo hold for the cargo of the captured ship ;-)

	Sorry but I coulnt resist.

	IMHO the smaller (200 & 400 tonnes) ships are intended for
	speculative trade, while the bigger (600+) are run by the
	companys for 1MCr/disp ton.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 05:19:54 +0000 ()
Subject: Still using TNE

Hy Folks,

	think twice before posting ;-( I forgot the URL ;-)

	http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: bborich@gnn.com ()
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:33:53
Subject: Publishing dates/Shipping time

     It usually takes about 1-2 weeks from the warehouse to the 
gamestores (via the distributors; a few days to the distributors 
and than a few more days to reach the stores).

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:13:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details

>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 16:21:17 -0400
>Subject: Re: Who the hell is Frank Repzinski ?
>
>My initial thought was that he was the 23rd generation of a family which can
>trace its history, lineage, etc, back to Terra.

This has incredible potential!!!  Were you thinking that he would be a
member of the Grand Senate, or just a Noble, or the leader of a nearby
pocket empire, or the leader on Terra?

><<  FIRST SURVEY
>
>There is no way that we can detail 20,000 star systems.  And I think that just
>leaving the UWPs to the computer provides information without substance.

Agree.

> The
>concept I have is that we WILL detail several areas (the places mentioned in
>the Outline). By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
>territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your adventurers
>to particpate in defining theteritory.

If I may suggest, as the "official" Imperium grows, release updates of
"official" sector data to coincide with the expansion of the Imperium.  Each
Milieu would detail a new sector (or part of a sector).  Eventually, you
should have all the areas developed, but initially, people only know what
the Imperium knows.


>And as we define some specific worlds (like Spires), you get to decide where
>they are placed within a sector or group of sectors.

If the previously detailed areas (like the Reformation Coalition) are kept
the same, I could live with this, but I would much prefer a UWP on every
world.  Of course, as you said, that is a task of outlandish proportion!

Also, the idea someone had mentioned about IG selling the rights to a planet
to folks like the TML gang is a great idea!  Sell the rights to generate the
planet and put it where you want (within reason).  Generate the extended
system, and the planet's history/society/culture within some guidelines
provided by IG.  If IG approves of the info submitted then it is published
in a supplement.  I would consider paying a reasonable amount to do this ($5
- - 10).  Just something else to consider (as if you weren't thinking about
enough :).

Thanks again for your clarification, Marc.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:09:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #524

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> PC: I'll press both of them.

So, I take it that the PC didn''t have a stick handy, eh?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Frank Repzinski

Could someone please explain to me who Frank Repzinski is?  I've deleted
the back issues, and I'm sorely confused.

(And while I'm enquiring into the mysteries of the Universe, who is IG's
 "parent company?")

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:22:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> The rules state 
> that a character can carry a number of kilos equal to his Strength and not
> be encumbered, or twice that amount and be -1 to all his physical stats.
> Members of a military unit can carry three times that amount and be at -2 to
> all their stats. (This is on page 59.) So, an average character with Str 7
> can carry 7 kg. (about 15 pounds), and the most he can carry is 14 kg.
> (about 31 pounds) unless he is in a military unit (it says nothing about
> USED to be in a military unit), and then he can carry 21 kg. (or about 46
> pounds).
>         I think this is a little low. A Traveller character STR is
> encumbered by carrying a laser rifle even at Str A! Just think what a plasma
> rifle would do!

I agree with you, Allen.  This is the same as in CT--which was a quick, and young, 
system.  This should have been altered in T4.  

On the other hand, check out how much a character can carry in TNE without being 
encumbered.  I call it the "Here, Fred, move this tank over there" system.

There should be a balance, and more realistic numbers, assigned to the weight system.

Thanks for posting your fixes.  I'm going to print them (to look at them after I get 
this task thing worked out).  You probably just saved me some work.

>         2.) base carrying capacity on STR + END. Same limits as above.
> 
> The Fatigue Pool can be used to help determine how long a person can carry
> weight above their encumbrance level, possibly lose one point for every
> round at Double load and 2 points for every round at Triple load.

Hmm. Interesting system.  I like factoring in End and increasing a character's load at 
the same time.  Thanks for the post.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:57:47 -0400
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

<...cut>

>In addition, IG is undergoing some changes.  They're off-loading the
>day-to-day business processes onto their parent organization, ...

Who is IG's "Parent Organization"?  You refer to it a couple of times in yr
post but don't name them...  I may've simply missed this earlier in the TML,
but is IG owned by somebody else, or what?  - Bill


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:57:53 -0400
Subject: Why did those damnable unexplored Core worlds move?

I may've missed it, but has IG/FFI ever said WHY they changed the star
locations in Core?  I've seen quite a bit about how the star locations
could/could not have changed, and more about how the current data (that is,
IG/FFI published data) is the way to go (it's official), but I wonder why
the changes were made in the first place...  I seem to recall one post that
said IG printed the map they received from FFI but it only addressed things
from IG's perspective (We were only following orders!), not from FFI's
perspective.  If there were particular reasons on FFI's part for changing
things, I'd love to hear them - the best way to get me to accept change is
to show me why it's cool! If there were no reasons to change Core other than
a **BIG** typo, mightn't it be best for IG/FFI to bit the bullet and issue
an erratum covering it?
- - Bill

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:58:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Unexplored worlds in Year 0.

<...CUT>

>My take on it is that Marc and the boys wanted to leave a number of worlds
>open for individual GM's to detail.  I'd say those systems *have* been
>explored and may (or may not) be part of the Federation. They've just been
>set aside for us to customize.  That's my take on it anyway.
>

That way, the IG-published materials would paint a picture of the Imperium
and support that, while, at the same time, there'd be a 'shadow' universe of
IG-undetailed worlds and subsectors (?) for individual refs to detail.  By
not playing these worlds up too much in IG-published material, they'd just
be 'those other, unsignificant worldsin which nothing much ever happened' as
far as the official histories went (for the sake of us canon-toting folk!)
Neat! - Bill


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:45:17 -0700
Subject: Re: To Marc Miller

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

> There is no way that we can detail 20,000 star systems. And I think that just
> leaving the UWPs to the computer provides information without substance. The
> concept I have is that we WILL detail several areas (the places mentioned in
> the Outline). By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
> territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your adventurers
> to particpate in defining theteritory.
> 
> And as we define some specific worlds (like Spires), you get to decide where
> they are placed within a sector or group of sectors.
> 
> Marc



As an omnivorous consumer of Traveller, I really wish that I could agree with what the 
Creator is saying, but on this topic, I just don't.  

I don't expect you guys and gals to detail 20,000 systems, but some of us like to 
stick to the already published material.  I don't want to see you generate new UWPs 
either.  What I want to see is T4 expand on what has already been published--not just 
give us a second version of the same stuff.

I want to see new technology, new ideas, and new background, but I want it to jibe with 
everything else.

What is the problem with adhereing to what all of us Traveller players have come to know 
and love?  If you want to detail certain worlds, then I would welcome it.  If some refs 
wanted to make up their own planets from scratch, then they can simply disregard what 
has been printed in the past--just like they have always done.  I've seen a lot of 
resistance to this idea on this list.  Many people want to know why the materials that 
they have purchased  in the past will no longer be valid.

Anyway, however you do it, I'm still going to buy it.  You just asked for our comments, 
and this is mine.

Sincerely,

Kenneth Bearden

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 02:12:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

Continuing the thread....
I was in the Canadian forces about 7 years ago. One day in sheer frustration re: our 
ability to do basic rifle drill due to a lack of fitness, our instructors had us do P.T. with 
rifles. The FN Rifle weighs 5 kg loaded, and you should see those people's arms shake 
as they try to hold it at arms length.I saw people who collapsed from exhaustion from 
carrying about 5 kg of webbing and ruck and a 5 kg rifle
I think the Traveller encumbrance rules are more than fair.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 02:15:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Genetics

Michael Koehne wrote:
> Moin Cmdr Hold'Em (now amused to death)
> > My sources (am trying to find names and titles) say even though we are 99.5%+
> > genetically identical there is no possible way to be interfertile
>         In the midle age a woman was burned because she got a baby
>         from a chimp here in Bremen (my home town). There is a film
>         about that event called "Der Affe Gottes". I dont know if it
>         was translated.

Don't think me sarcastic, but anything from the Middle Ages is highly suspect as to 
veracity. They executed women who could swim, and werewolves overran the continent
More likely story would be a village had a rash of problems, this poor lady has a 
butt-ugly kid, and bada bing bada boom, she is a witch and slept with an ape

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 02:04:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details

Paul Walker wrote:
> If the previously detailed areas (like the Reformation Coalition) are kept
> the same, I could live with this, but I would much prefer a UWP on every
> world.  Of course, as you said, that is a task of outlandish proportion!

Generating a UWP on every world is not an outlandish task.  We have always gotten our 
sector stats in the GDW and DGP products.  Use them!  They are already done!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 02:19:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Michael Koehne wrote:
>         How said that (our) sun has a size of 432 ?
>         In our system planetoids have a size from 0-2, planets a size
>         from 3-10, gas giants a size of 11-15 while stars have these
>         sizes.

Uh, no
Jupiter is 11 times Earth's diameter, making it size 88
The sun is much bigger than that (out of memeory, cannot load program with file with 
info)
Whoops, shot my mouth off, when you say "our system" do you mean your house 
system or our solar system
If it is the former, ignore this post

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 02:25:45 +0000
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

Michael Koehne wrote:
>         IMHO the smaller (200 & 400 tonnes) ships are intended for
>         speculative trade, while the bigger (600+) are run by the
>         companys for 1MCr/disp ton.

1 "MCr" per disp ton?
Mayhaps that is 1 KCr?
If not, I am definitley making my next character a merchant!!

------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 14:06:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: IG FAQ

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> Q.  When is my T4 hardback going to arrive? 
> A.  Foreign orders will take about a month longer than other orders to 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the continental U.S.

Great >:-(  When I ordered my hardcover some months ago I asked whether
they would be shipped with air mail... the Imperium Games guy (don't
remember the name) said "Yes, they will be shipped with air mail".  Air
mail usually takes 10 days to arrive.  Now they managed it again -- I'm
annoyed >:-(  Since the official delivery time seems to be one month I'd
guess that they shipped the hardcovers with surface mail and thus six to 8
weeks are more realistic :-(

Joe, could you please determine, how the hardcovers where changed?  I'd
really like to know whether they lied to me or whether they just used a
very unusual way of sending the hardcovers by air mail...

Ciao,

				Thomas.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 01:56:25 -0500
Subject: Re: DGP Favorites

On 10/12/96 at 07:19 AM,  rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger) said:

>Without a doubt, my favourite product was the World Builder's Handbook -
>had both of the original two part products and bought *two* copies of the
>reprinted single volume second edition.

I *heard* all about WBH. I've seen results of people using it.  I never had
a chance to buy a copy!  Somehow, I missed WBH..probably when I was
ignoring the Rebellion stuff in MT. <g>  

I'd *really* like a chance to buy a copy of WBH.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 13 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 548

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Realistic Income Model Proposal
         2. RE: Genetics
         3. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
         4. Re: Milieu 0 Outline
         5. Re: IISS Uniforms
         6. Re: Still running TNE
         7. Traveller Copyright Archive (v0.1)
         8. Re: IG FAQ
         9. IG's Parent Organization
        10. Re: Publishing dates/Shipping time
        11. Re: Frank Repzinski
        12. rec.games.frp.misc
        13. Re: Niven
        14. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        15. Re: Realistic Income Model Proposal
        16. Re: Starship Economics Problems
        17. Re: Still running TNE
        18. Tavonni
        19. Unexplored worlds again
        20. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530
        21. Unexplored worlds again
        22. Re: Still running TNE
        23. Traveller Chronicle #11
        24. Masters of the Universe, Publishing Juggernaut.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 09:05:17 UT
Subject: RE: Realistic Income Model Proposal

Mark Ayers said:
>Request for Comment:
>
>Realistic Income Model: a Traveller House Rules Expansion

<snip>

Hi, Mark, I printed out your post a while back and just now got around to 
looking at it.  I like it very much!  Very little of the bandwidth on TML 
actually has any useful stuff.  Thanks for the good stuff.  

>Examples:
>John Normal is an average citizen (SS 7)
>Lord Bern is a Baron (SS C)
>Bill Labor is a minimum wage worker (SS 3)
>
>1. On a totally average imperial planet with a class C port and an =
>average
>imperial technology level; John Normal makes Cr10,000, Lord Bern makes
>MCr21.96 and Bill Labor makes Cr5200.
>
>2. On a rich, agricultural planet with a class A port and a high =
>imperial
>technology level of 14; John Normal makes Cr32,640, Lord Bern makes
>MCr70.79 and Bill Labor make Cr16,973.
>
>3. On a non-agricultural, non-industrial planet with no port and 1970s
>technology level; John Normal makes Cr1920, Lord Bern makes MCr4.16 and
>Bill Labor makes Cr998.

Your example #3 is ripe for a bolshevik revolution!  Bill Labor cannot afford 
to live unless the he can get somebody to supplement his income (depends on 
the presence and type of government -- right?).  Starvation level food and 
subsistance level lodging in CT and T4 come out to Cr 120 per month.  This 
leaves poor Bill with a shortfall of Cr 442 every year.  Unless he can get a 
second job, he's in bad shape -- forget about raising a family.  Do you think 
you should adjust the curve a bit at the bottom end of the chart?  Perhaps it 
should be based on more than SS alone... 

I didn't see how the exchange rate would fit into this.  Also, since you seem 
to enjoy being creative with obscure charts hidden away here and there, take a 
peek in _Striker Rule Book 2, Advanced Rules_ on page 38 under the heading 
_Military Spending_.  I dunno if this was ever reprinted in any other 
materials.

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 09:13:49 UT
Subject: RE: Genetics

Amused to Death said:
>More likely story would be a village had a rash of problems, this poor lady 
>has a  butt-ugly kid, and bada bing bada boom, she is a witch and slept >with 
an ape

ha -OW - ha - OW -ha - Owww.....

Trying not to laugh 'cuz I got a sore throat.....    ;-)>

Thanks,
				---Boyd



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:40:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

One of the silliest and stupidest rule in Traveller was that about military
guys being able to carry triple load and all other double but that was not
my reason for replying.

In my game I have three levels of encumberance: Unencumbered, encumbered
and heavily encumbered and the weights are:
STR      Unenc.      Unc.      H Enc.
1-2       1 kg       2 kg      5 kg
3-5       2 kg       5 kg      10 kg
6-8       5 kg       10 kg     20 kg
9-11      10 kg      20 kg     50 kg
12-14     20 kg      50 kg     100 kg
15+       50 kg      100 kg    200 kg
Stuff carried in backpack count as half.
Armor worn count as half.
My definition of 'in backpack' is 'not easily reached' so the players don't
start to construct ingenious backholsters and the like.
Unencumbered characters can sprint (DEX 14+ guys make 100m in 10s)
Encumbered characters can trot
Heavily encumbered characters can walk


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:05:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

In a message dated 96-10-11 12:30:13 EDT, you write:

<< that leaves only Solomani as a major human race >>

Wow! Wouldn't that be a twist.

Marc


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:05:35 -0400
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

In a message dated 96-10-11 22:17:46 EDT, you write:

<< So does the Imperial Encyclopedia by GDW and Travellers' Digest #20 by
 DGP.  Given these three "oh-ficial" sources, Andy, I'd say light blue
 for the Scout Service should be considered "canon". I'm still hunting
 for the  patch colors but my certainty has gone up to 95%.
  >>

As for uniform colors, I thought they changes the color every several
decades. 

Marc



------------------------------

From: Bill Hutchinson <hbill@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 03:18:00 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Still running TNE

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hbill                                     __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____
hbill@primenet.com                       /__)/__) / / / / /_  /\  / /_    /
                                        /   / \  / / / / /__ /  \/ /___  /-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Michael Koehne wrote:

> Hy Folks,
> 
> 	I'm still running TNE, and anybody who is also infected
> 	with virus, should take a look at my home page, especialy
> 	the shipyard contain 3 new designs.

Home page??
> 
> 	BTW: As usual anybody should feel free to improve my grammar
> 	and spelling.
> 
> 	I'm also thinking about colapsing the sector data, and scanning
> 	the Regency Sourcbook, Path Of Tears and Vampire Fleets. Has
> 	anybody made some pocket empires I should include ? Has anybody
> 	allready scanned the canon TNE sectors ?
> 
> By Michael
> -- 
> " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "
> 
>   Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
>   Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de
> 


------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 03:25:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Traveller Copyright Archive (v0.1)

Annoncing the Traveller Copyright Archive (v0.1)
The History of GDW's & IG's Copyright Policy

Contents:
   1992-1994   Dangerous Journeys Lawsuit
   Aug 1992    1st Announcement about TNE
   Sept 1992   Frank Chadwick Gets Angry
   Oct 1992    Early Speculation from the TML
   July 1994   GDW Gives Roger Sanger the Cold Shoulder
   Aug 1994    David Nilsen Outlines GDW's Policy
   Jan 1996    GDW Ceases Operations
   Jan 1996    Marc Miller: Where Traveller is Going
   Mar 1996    Imperium Games Begins Work on T4
   May 1996    Jim asks IG/Marc Miller about their Policy
   Aug 1996    IG Condones TML as Pre-Publishing Medium
   Sept 1996   Marc Miller Condones Scanning Deck Plans
   Sept 1996   Use of Official Sector Data

Available Now...
   via email:   In ZIP format. Please specify whether you
                want it as a mime-attachment or uuencoded.
     via www:   http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/tca/tca.html

jimv@empirenet.com

PS: Joe, there are still some of questions raised here
which haven't been answered. I'm probably jumping the
gun by releasing this in its present state, but I wanted
to let the Traveller-fans know that we're still floating
in the dark (IMHO) in terms of what is explicitly sanctioned
in terms of fan-authored, Traveller-compatible, freeware and
other not-for-profit articles. Any chance we can get a reply
from Marc Miller?


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:10:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG FAQ

On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

> Great >:-(  When I ordered my hardcover some months ago I asked whether
> they would be shipped with air mail... the Imperium Games guy (don't
> remember the name) said "Yes, they will be shipped with air mail".  Air
> mail usually takes 10 days to arrive.  Now they managed it again -- I'm
> annoyed >:-(  Since the official delivery time seems to be one month I'd
> guess that they shipped the hardcovers with surface mail and thus six to 8
> weeks are more realistic :-(
> 
> Joe, could you please determine, how the hardcovers where changed?  I'd
> really like to know whether they lied to me or whether they just used a
> very unusual way of sending the hardcovers by air mail...

Geez, I guess I screwed up already. :(  I put that "a month longer" in 
there from my own experience from ordering stuff from England.  If they said 
they'd ship 'em air mail, then that's probably what they did.  Here's 
exactly what Ken told me: "Foreign orders will take longer to arrive.  
It's just a waiting game."

I am sorry for misinterpreting that. :(


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:58:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG's Parent Organization

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> Who is IG's "Parent Organization"?  You refer to it a couple of times in yr
> post but don't name them...  I may've simply missed this earlier in the TML,
> but is IG owned by somebody else, or what?  - Bill

Bill,

I guess this should be in the FAQ:  I have no idea.  

You see, the business end of things is outside of what I'm supposed to be 
doing here.  IG isn't going to share the details of their business with 
me.  (I've been asked how much profit IG makes on each book - I have 
no idea, and I don't want to know!  In another instance, Roger Sanger 
e-mailed me and wanted me to talk to IG about permitting his DGP stuff to 
be re-published.  I had to tell him I won't be doing that for him.  
That's not what I'm here for, and I have enough to do already.)

Please, no more questions about who owns IG, how much money they make, 
how much they have in the bank, etc!

Thank you.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:48:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Publishing dates/Shipping time

On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 bborich@gnn.com wrote:

>      It usually takes about 1-2 weeks from the warehouse to the 
> gamestores (via the distributors; a few days to the distributors 
> and than a few more days to reach the stores).

Thanks for the info! 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:51:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Frank Repzinski

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Joseph M. Saul wrote:

> (And while I'm enquiring into the mysteries of the Universe, who is IG's
>  "parent company?")

I've seen it posted on r.g.f.misc that it's the Vilani Empire, but I 
can't vouch for that. [grin]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
           The Official TML Representative for Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 08:25:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: rec.games.frp.misc

I decided to just go ahead and post everything I report about IG to 
r.g.f.misc.  Those who read that newsgroup will see the messages from me 
on that subject.  Essentially, I posted the mini-FAQ, apologized for 
not doing so sooner, and promised to keep them informed.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:42:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Niven

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> The pocket battleship was in "The Borderland of Sol", the ship in "Neutron
> Star" was unarmed.
> 

Ah, thinking like a Kzinti, are you?  Didn't that ship have a very
large fusion drive?  And we all know what fusion drives are good
for ...
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:01:07 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

Moin Amused to Death,

> Jupiter is 11 times Earth's diameter, making it size 88

	if you say size1 = 1000 miles diameter, so Jupiter would be
	88 but in UWP's there is no posibility to write an 88, so
	GG as home worlds are B-F

	we extended this for sun's so we get much smaler squars, and
	only 4000 light seconds around sun for a save jump.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:05:17 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Realistic Income Model Proposal

Moin Boyd Schneider,

> Your example #3 is ripe for a bolshevik revolution!  Bill Labor cannot afford 
> to live unless the he can get somebody to supplement his income (depends on 
> the presence and type of government -- right?).  Starvation level food and 
> subsistance level lodging in CT and T4 come out to Cr 120 per month.

	I would multiply these 120 Cr by tech level and starport modifier.
	Life should be cheaper there.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:06:38 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

Moin Amused to Death,

> >         IMHO the smaller (200 & 400 tonnes) ships are intended for
> >         speculative trade, while the bigger (600+) are run by the
> >         companys for 1MCr/disp ton.

> 1 "MCr" per disp ton?
> Mayhaps that is 1 KCr?
> If not, I am definitley making my next character a merchant!!

	sorry for that mistake, my weed (8 generation home grown)
	seems to be very strong last night ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:08:03 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Still running TNE

Moin Bill Hutchinson,

> Home page??

	as told I was very stoned last night ;-)

	http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:32:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Tavonni

Dear Folks -

Just letting you know:

1.      My "Traveller Library Data" now goes up to "H" (it includes Bwaps
and Dolphins, BTW ;-).

2.      The Tavonni Constitution is now online. Access via the Tavonni
write-up or my main links page.

3.      YES!!! We have PICTURES!!! A scanned map of Tavonni (304k JPEG) is
now available. Access via the Tavonni write-up, at the "System Details"
heading. Sorry, still have not investigated tables properly, so the system
details are still missing. Maybe next time??
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 16:06 BST-1
Subject: Unexplored worlds again

In-Reply-To: <9610102239.AA19204@NS.MPGN.COM>

...and another thing: what's IG going to do when they publish Millieux 
200, or Second Survey, or whatever? Is this 'hole' in the map still 
going to be there? I bloody hope not! Publishing the data now means 
what, another days work for someone at IG, whereas publishing it in a 
year or two is guaranteed to **** up any campaign that's visited them.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 16:06 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

In-Reply-To: <9610101922.AA18624@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< >(2) Why aren't the Core Worlds explored? Unlikely that they're not 
explored
>- the data just isn't available to your average person. 

At this time the Imperium has just rediscovered Jump-3 drive technology,
and Jump-2 is 'bleeding edge tech' for the rest of the TL-11 universe
(probably reserved for military ships).  Your average trader is going to
have a Jump-1 drive--it makes getting to those 'unnamed' worlds very
hard.  It's been mentioned before that this is the 'Official' map.  This
is what the Imperium has released for it's general navigation charts.
The worlds not listed might be Red Zones (that's if we had a TAS to call
it that in year 0) for various reasons. >>

I haven't seen the map yet (still waiting for my signed h/b <sob>), so I 
don't know where these worlds are, or how much info is given, but...

1. The Sylean Federation has been wandering around for what, centuries? 
There will be info on those worlds. There are probably still records 
from the Rule of Man.

2. If, somehow, centuries of data has been lost or classified, pick up 
an astronomy textbook. Chances are, it'll have full data on all stars 
within, say, 50 parsecs. It may even tell you which ones have planetary 
systems (gas giants, especially). A small amount of work with a radio 
telescope will get you more info, including a TL-estimation (if they 
have radio or not).

3. If all else fails, spending an afternoon in a starport bar will find 
at least one trader who's been there (or knows someone who has).

The *only* possibilities that make sense are: a) they're all barren, 
inhospitable rocks, or b) the Imperial Navy is interdicting them and 
destroying any ship that visits.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 16:06 BST-1
Subject: Unexplored worlds again

In-Reply-To: <9610102239.AA19204@NS.MPGN.COM>

...and another thing: what's IG going to do when they publish Millieux 
200, or Second Survey, or whatever? Is this 'hole' in the map still 
going to be there? I bloody hope not! Publishing the data now means 
what, another days work for someone at IG, whereas publishing it in a 
year or two is guaranteed to **** up any campaign that's visited them.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:16:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Still running TNE

Michael Koehne asks:

>	I'm also thinking about collapsing the sector data, and scanning
>	_The Regency Sourcebook_, _Path Of Tears_ and _Vampire Fleets_. Has
>	anybody made some pocket empires I should include ? Has anybody
>	already scanned the canon TNE sectors ?

   You should include the Solomani Rim sector data which is available in
Traveller Chronicle #10 (or available minus maps and other stuff from me if
you ask nice).  As Traveller Chronicle is an officially licensed Traveller
product, its contents would be classified as canon, or at least as canon as
DPG stuff was/is.

Regards,

Harold

P.S. Per your request, I corrected your grammar and spelling above.

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:23:30 -0400
Subject: Traveller Chronicle #11

   Just to let everyone know, Traveller Chronicle #11 is at the printers and
will be shipped shortly.

   You'll want to read it carefully (and I assume here you already have a
subsrciption or are planning to purchase it....you are aren't you?).  Once
everyone has had a chance to look it over, I'll be holding a writing contest
regarding the _Children of Earth_ setting.  More details later.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:25:35 -0400
Subject: Masters of the Universe, Publishing Juggernaut.

Yes the joy of the net strike once more. The Guys from IG are like the
rest of us Net Creepers they, read all the questions about profit and
how they have structured their business. They are the Folks who make the
decision on how much information they want to volunteer, We just process
the output. Remember We live in the information age where less and less
is hidden and at times silence speaks volumes.
                                           Tracking the Parental Units
                                        Loading all asteroidal
ordinance                                              Tick Tick Tick
Tick
                                                   Charlie

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #548
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 13 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 549

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. A few Questions/Comments
         2. Re: [T96#504] Unobtanium and General Products
         3. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
         4. Revised Alternate World Gen Article
         5. Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526
         7. Re: Why did those damnable unexplored Core worlds move?
         8. Re: Unexplored worlds again
         9. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        10. Task System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:04:15 +0000
Subject: A few Questions/Comments

I finally got around to reading the animal section of T4
p142, correction, add a vertical line through the minus sign and it is now correct
Did anyone notice these things about animals:
	pouncers, trappers and sirens attck only if _they_ are surprised
(careful, Johnny. Make sure that Mountain Lion knows you are here or he  will rip you 
apart for scaring him. Animals in the T4 universe need some valium)
	filters, sirens and trappers have a to flee number. Yet a lot of the time they have no 
movement. (aah, it is too late, that trapper creature is leaning away from us, we'll never 
get it now)
A question. If you have the animals damage already rolled, how does armour work 
against it? I can improv a house rule but I think this could be a prob for a new player 
starting traveller

Why is the pump action on the top of the barrel of the shotgun? Is this some alien race's 
shotgun? (p81)

On p115, it states that a captain will discover a stowaway on a 10- and space him on a 
reaction roll of 8+.
WHAT? That means , according to the reaction chart on p150, if the result is interested 
or better, he will kill you. In this case I would say, if you are caught, spit in the man's 
face and question his ancestry. Then he won't kill you

Something has to be done with the reaction chart. As it stands any given encounter has a 
11.81% chance of an attack. Maybe that is why the animals are so nervous. Someone 
once described the chart by saying that when you ask a bureaucrat what time it is and he 
whips out a PGMP and says "time to leave, a*****e!

My last comment is about the 11-66 task system.
Maybe you could write out benchmarks, like 
20 Formidable Success, Average Spectacular Success, Impossible Spectacular Failure
(just arbitrary there)

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 14:20:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#504] Unobtanium and General Products

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes...

T::>Your ideas below are interesting, but they all assume a GP number *2*
 ::>(or larger!) hull. I was talking about a GP #1 hull which is about the
 ::>size of a basketball. :-)

 Whoops!  I always manage to get screwed up...

T::>>  8.  (no strange tech visible - except for the hull itself)
 ::>>  Upon boarding, no life is found - not even microbial.
 ::>>  Examination of the Master's Safe and the computer reveal that
 ::>>  it is a quite ordinary Imperial/Sylean Federation-registered
 ::>>  ship, with a Jump-2 drive - and indeed it is, except for the
 ::>>  unusual hull.  A check of records will reveal that the ship
 ::>>  filed a "flight plan" between two planets Jump-1 apart on the
 ::>>  Sylean main, both of which are at least seven parsecs away.
 ::>>  The ship had been due to arrive at its destination within a
 ::>>  couple of days of its being found.

T::>First thing I'd do is check and see if such a ship was known, and where
 ::>it supposedly originated. Since *we* can't make such hulls, where the
 ::>hell did they get it? And if the records *don't* show such a ship
 ::>making a jump between those systems, or if there is one, and it arrived
 ::>ok, then we likely have a ship from a parallel universe.

 Or, whatever caused it to misjump to here also did Strange
 Things to the originally standard hull...  which was what I was
 thinking when I wrote that.  And no, it would not have arrived
 on schedule.  If it had, it wouldn't be _here_.

 I took a liberty; I assumed that the GP2 (1, I thought) was not
 the Niven-canonical shape - as barely suggested by the "indeed
 it is, except...".

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ When guns are outlawed, how'll we kill liberals?

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 14:20:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

(Continued from previous message)

compatible with the Classic Traveller vision of the universe,
with intelligent gas-giant dwellers and all sorts of exotic
life-forms, and sentient life-forms are all over the place,
although many of them aren't really "life as we know it".

While the above pretty accurately describes the way I feel, I
certainly understand if this isn't everybody's cup of tea. For a
lot less life in general, and a lot less intelligent life, try
the following modifiers:

- -1 if not a Main Sequence (size V) star
- -1 if not a Spectral Class F or G star
- -6 if in Inner Zone
- -4 if in Outer Zone

This should cause the most life to cluster around the habitable
zone of class F and G Main Sequence stars (in other words, stars
like the Sun or a little brighter). Thus, most life will be
"life as we know it", and will be much less prevalent than in
the first method.

Now throw 2d6 and subtract the results from the Life Score:
0- No significant native organisms (all "boring" or imported).
1 = "Interesting" native single-cell organisms.
2 = "Interesting" native microscopic (multicellular) organisms.
3 = "Interesting" native plants (macroscopic).
4 = "Interesting" native animals (non-sentient).
5 = Complex native ecosystem (multiple "Interesting" organisms).
6+ Native Sentient or near-Sentient life (always interesting).

The second throw should probably be part of the "world building"
procedure, and not part of the basic generation.

Once the throw is made, the referee will then have to decide (as
part of the detailed world description) what the "interesting"
things about the planet are. The followings are minima for
native life forms:
0 = Sterile
1 = Pre-Life
2 = Life (maybe even pre-cellular life)
3 = Single-Celled organisms
4 = Multicellular organisms
5 = "Plant" life
6 = Animal life
7 = Complex ecosystems
8 = MINIMUM for native sentient organisms.

Please note that it is possible for a world to have a Life score
of 12, but not have any "interesting" native life. One
possibility is a world that has been colonized, and the
colonist's imported plants and animals have out-competed the
native ecosystem, which as become nearly extinct. This is a
definite possibility, particularly on worlds that have been
civilized for thousands of years. Another possibility is a world
that is covered with oceans, which are literally filled with an
amazing diversity of single-celled organisms. Literally every
square centimeter of the world's surface would have something
living on it. Although such a world might have a relatively high
Life rating, it may only rate as having "interesting"
single-celled organisms. For figuring out a world in the context
of a long-standing interstellar community, you can use Resources
to represent the attractiveness of the world to the "outside"
starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be used as a basis
for determining whether there is a "native" culture to interact
with.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
That's how the article stands at this microsecond.  If any of
the authors would like to change their contributions, identify
your contribution and let me know what changes to make.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-supported Traveller Res

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 14:20:00 -0500
Subject: Revised Alternate World Gen Article

I've gotten a copy of the article below and started modifying it
for Freelance Traveller.  I need some information from the list:

First, if you're one of the authors, please identify your
contribution to the article.  I've identified mine and Jim
Vassilakos's; I'm not familiar enough with other people's
writing styles and thought processes to be able to even identify
where one contribution ends and the next begins.

Second, I need current e-mail addresses for everyone below.
Mine is correct; I haven't changed it.  I'm pretty sure that
both Jim's and Derek's have changed, but I'm not sure to what;
the others I haven't heard from or seen posts from in quite some
time.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

Alternative World Generation systems for Traveller

By Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Jim Vassilakos <jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu>
Derek Wildstar <wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu>
Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
Bruce Pihlamae <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au>
Steve Bonneville <bonn0015@gold.tc.umn.edu>

[Editor's Note: This document was originally written with the
_Traveller:_The_New_Era_ world generation sequence in mind. It
has been updated by Jeff Zeitlin to reflect changes from those
systems to _Marc_Miller's_Traveller_.]

(r) Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
Enterprises, (c)1996. All rights reserved. Use of the trademark
in this document is not intended to imply any official
connection with the holder of the trademark or any licensee, nor
to infringe upon or devalue the trademark.

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Jim Vassilakos's Psychological Effects of Planetary Development

The order in which UWP statistics are generated is non-intuitive:

1.Starport Class                5.Population Exponent
2.World Size                    6.Government Type
3.Atmosphere Type               7.Law Level
4.Hydrographic Percentage       8.Technological Level

Why is the starport generated first? It would be more sensible
for starport type to be determined by traffic, and traffic to be
determined by population. Consider generating starport type
after population. Making this one change, look at cause and
effect in the rules:

Statistic                       Modifiers
- --------------------------------------------------------
World Size                      no modifiers
Atmosphere Type                 Size
Hydrographic Percentage         Atmosphere and Size
Population Exponent             no modifiers
Starport Type                   no modifiers
Government Type                 Population Exponent
Law Level                       Government Type
Technological Level             Everything except law level

Regardless of its features, the primary world or asteroid belt
in one system is just as likely to have a population of x as the
primary world or asteroid belt in any other system. This is less
than obvious.

Think about it. You roll up some dinky little ice-ball as the
main world in your star system -- surely the fact that this tiny
lump of rock has no atmosphere, that it has no liquid water, and
that it hasn't even a modicum of elbow room, makes it less
likely to have a population of 50 billion people than the garden
terra-prime paradise just a couple of parsecs down the road.
Yes... you can explain it away. You can say, "Oh, there's this
wonderful lanthanum mine." Or you can say. "These people live
here... because it's their home" (and then smile convincingly).
But it doesn't work. This isn't a little inconsistency. This is
a whopping big one.

Jim's 1st Law on main-world generation:
Given that everything else is more or less equal, people will
tend to migrate to the place that is "nicer". Worlds with a nice
atmosphere, some actual water, and so forth, will attract large
populations which will in turn build decent starports. Planets
that aren't so nice (you know the ones I'm talking about) will
not attract people, and hence are unlikely to have lots of
traffic or well-equipped starports.

[Note that `people' is implicitly humans -- not necessarily the
case on all worlds.]

Jim's 2nd Law:
People will attain the resources (technology) that they need to
survive, such that those resources are available. If you're
really sure that you're going to live on Sonthert/Lanth, then
you're going to make sure you have the technology to survive on
a near-vacuum planet. (Sonthert, alas, is rated TL3.)

The philosophy of high and low tech worlds living side by side
is also questionable. It can be argued that it's possible for a
short duration such as a few decades, or given special political
or social circumstances. But in general, over the course of
centuries, eventually there will either be a leveling process or
the low Technological Level regions will gain in technology.

The counter-argument to Jim's 1st Law is that all things are not
equal. Otherwise, why would anyone live in Chicago when they
could move to Hawaii? (Most people would class the latter as
nicer than the former!) The answer is economics. People are too
poor to move, don't have skills, have family ties. Moreover, if
there are no jobs at the new planet, who is going to move there?
Equally, the world profiles don't tell the whole story. Just
because a place has a "nice" profile - average size, average
atmosphere, average hydrographics -- doesn't mean the rest of it
is fun. The planet could be too hot, too cold, inhabited by
vorpal bunnies, or whatever.

It is also possible that "blue-sky" Terra-norm worlds might in
some cases be more difficult to settle than less inviting worlds
- -- there'll be life down there, and who knows what might do to
prospective settlers? Vacuum worlds are much more predictable,
and with proper planning might also be easier on the equipment.
So more people might settle there, especially if the colony is
well established -- a vacuum world colony interior can be much
more sophisticated and spacious than, say, Moonbase Alpha.

Jim's Modified Main-world Generation Procedure:

Changes from the standard procedure are *italicized*.

World Size. Roll 2d6-2.

Atmosphere Type. Roll 2d6-7+World Size.
if World Size is 0 then Atmosphere Type 0.
confine range to 0-F.

Hydrographics Percentage. Roll 2d6-7+*World Size*.
if Atmosphere Type is 1 or less, then DM -4
if World Size is *1 or less*, then Hydrographics Percentage 0
if Atmosphere Type is A-C then DM -4
confine range to 0-A

Population Exponent. Roll 2d6-2.
*if World Size is 2 or less, DM -1*
*if Atmosphere Type is 3 or less, DM -3*
*if Atmosphere Type is A, DM -2*
*if Atmosphere Type is B, DM -3*
*if Atmosphere Type is C, DM -4*
*if Atmosphere Type is 6, DM +3*
*if Atmosphere Type is 5 or 8, DM +1*
*if Hydrographics Percentage is 0 and Atmosphere Type is 3 or greater, DM -2*
*confine range to 0-A*

Starport Type. Roll 2d6.
*if Population Exponent is 0 then Starport Type X*
*if Population Exponent is 1, DM +2*
*if Population Exponent is 2, DM +1*
*if Population Exponent is 6-9, then DM -1*
*if Population Exponent is A, then DM -2*
*confine range to A-X*

Government Type. Roll 2d6-7+Population Exponent.
*if population exponent is 0 then government 0*
*confine range to 0-F*

Law Level. Roll 2d6-7+Government Type.
*if government type is 0 then law level 0*
*confine lower bound of range to 0*

Technological Level. Roll d6.
Modify as per the standard chart.
*if Population Exponent 0 then Technological Level 0*
*otherwise, if Hydrographic Percentage is 0 or A and Population
Exponent is at least 6, then Technological Level must at least
be 4.*
*if Atmosphere Type is 4, 7 or 9, then Technological Level must
be at least be 5.*
*if Atmosphere Type is 3 or less, or A-C, then Technological
Level must at least be 7.*
*if Hydrographic Percentage is A, then Technological Level must
be at least be 7.*
confine lower bound of range to 0

Some example UWPs from this system:

X211000-0    E475100-8    D86A6BB-7    X410000-0    A410446-B
C66266B-6    E98A237-8    X573220-5    A748483-C    A85A766-C
A867657-B    C310235-7    B220532-D    X473000-0    A665ADD-E
A8599A8-C    C738475-8    A5588B7-9    C634523-8    B332334-9
D545456-5    C575553-7    C110221-8    A667785-7    E75A466-4
D795679-5    C754575-9    E678112-6    X311000-0    X528211-8
B471322-B    C874663-6    D453643-4    C668989-9    B5438AE-8
C87A564-6    C474278-8    X226000-0    C410230-7    X303156-8
B9B4230-7    A5949C9-A    A685876-7    C594100-8    C539343-7
X9A8000-0    X120000-0    B457867-6    B2518CD-B    A631453-F

Note that there are some conspicuous differences between this
data and "normal" UWP listings. There are more uninhabited or
very low-population star systems under the modified rules. This
will probably bring down the average starport rating for any
given region. Also, there are very few low-tech star systems.
The lowest here are both TL4, and in both cases, they've got a
breathable atmospheres. As expected, the less-hospitable worlds
tend to have lower populations and seedier starports. More
surprising is the existence of several lush (atmos=6) worlds
with under ten million inhabitants. The system usually has high
populations clustered on those worlds. However, when we look at
the highest population world in this run, we see that it has a
standard atmosphere, so these results are fairly plausible.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Zeitlin's Theory of Government Technological Interference

It can be argued that law level will have an effect on tech
level. The more oppressive a society is, the less likely it is
that geniuses will appear and create the new technology. Earth
history supports this view; the cultures that made the largest
advances in technology were the ones with high levels of
personal freedom. Certainly, other, less free cultures may do a
better job of exploiting some forms of technology, but they'll
probably acquire it from a culture that is more free. One would
hardly expect a totally oppressive theocracy to be innovative...

At No Law, there is no way of ensuring that the person who
develops new technology will be able to profit from it. If
something is good, it will be used by anyone who can get their
hands on it, and without paying. This reduces the incentive to
research.

At Low Law, there may be some protection, so there will be some
innovation. However, the government will normally not be
powerful or influential enough to make large investments in
research; this will offset part of the benefit gained from the
protection afforded intellectual property.

At Moderate Law, you will typically have a government that has
the power, influence, and revenue to invest in research, and
sufficient freedom of information exchange to make it profitable
(in terms of results). However, at this stage, the government
will probably have a tendency to want to direct the research,
rather than dropping the cash on the table, sitting back, and
saying, "O.K. folks, let's see what you can come up with."

This directive tendency will continue at higher law levels, and
with the continuing decrease in personal freedom and freedom of
information exchange, and increasing compartmentalization of
research, the return on investment will typically drop heavily.
At some point, the government will probably decide that research
is unproductive of results, and tech will stagnate (Look at the
USSR on Terra in -2531 - most of their technology was acquired
through intelligence gathering).

Thus the suggested modifiers to TL based on Law Level:

Law Level                    Modifier
- -------------------------------------
No Law or Moderate Law       none
Low Law                      +1
High Law                     -1
Extreme Law (A-C)            -2
Extreme Law (D-E)            -3
Extreme Law (F-G)            -4
Extreme Law (H or greater)   -5

In a similar vein, one can also suggest a new table for the
effect of government type on tech level.  Note that this table
is intended to replace the Government Type modifier to the Tech
Level table in the basic rules:

Government Code    Modifier
- ---------------------------
0                  none
1                  +3
2                  +2
3                  none
4                  +1
5                  +2
6                  -2
7                  See note
8                  -1
9                  -1
A                  none
B                  -1
C                  none
D                  -3

Note: For balkanized worlds, generate the national governments
of interest, and use the above table. If the table specifies a
negative modifier, change the modifier to be one unit closer to
"none" to account for intelligence (espionage) effects (i.e., a
- -1 modifier becomes "none", a -2 modifier becomes -1, and so
on).

Rationale:
+0 modifiers - When there is no formal government structure, any
new technology developed is unprotected, save by individual
effort. In this event, even if the technology is developed, it
will be slow to be released, because of concerns of the
developer profiting from it (i.e. the developer wants to; others
may be more willing to steal the technology than buy it).

In a benign oligarchy, or a charismatic dictatorship, it is less
likely that those in power will hear about good ideas that are
not developed within the governmental structure, thus reducing
the chance of advancement. Such a government, however, will not
necessarily reject an idea if it hears about it.

+ modifiers - A company has the utmost interest in development
of technology that will allow them to achieve higher return on
investment. Ideas will be actively sought after, and explored
for their profit-making potential. Democracies have a high level
of personal freedom and will tend to allow ideas to percolate
around without interference. Coupled with laws protecting
intellectual property, and the fact that the government will
generally be pretty busy trying to prostitute itself to the
special interests acting in the name of "the people," there will
probably be significant opportunity for ideas to be pursued
despite theoretical restrictions on the use of government funds.
The less a government has to deal directly with the people, the
more it will be able to direct research, thus the lower DM for a
representative democracy vs. a participatory democracy.

- - modifiers - The fundamental obstacles to technological
progress in these governments are multiple: insularity from
people outside the government, doctrinaire educational policies,
rewarding of conformity over individual initiative, personal
paranoia (in the case of dictatorships), conservatism (including
but not limited to religious orthodoxy and extremism)... All of
these combine, to varying degrees, and result in an inability to
develop ideas once they are presented, and a further reluctance
for individuals to present their ideas for fear of being
condemned or persecuted for them (recall Nazi Germany's attitude
towards "Jewish Physics").

Note that these are only guidelines; fiddle with them to suit
your needs. Some of the factors cited for negative modifiers
might be at work in governments that have positive modifiers,
and vice-versa.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Also, star type does affect the rest of planetary generation;
the combination of M-V stars and hospitable (even agricultural)
worlds isn't entirely realistic. So if we do add stellar data in
for 'feel', we should take care not to make the same mistake as
GDW: i.e., we should first generate star-type according to known
stellar frequency data and then generate the mainworld, applying
modifiers to the UWP data as applicable. This would probably
make "inhospitable" worlds even more common than in the modified
system above.

Life and Resources:
One way of expanding upon the limited set of generation rules
would be to extend the number of statistics to include:

Resources (independent) - an indicator of the available natural
resources on the world. A high value indicates extensive,
high-qual

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:48:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details

On 10 Oct 96 at 2:04, Kenneth Bearden spewed:

> Generating a UWP on every world is not an outlandish task.  We have
> always gotten our sector stats in the GDW and DGP products.  Use
> them!  They are already done!

Problem is, GDW never really generated sectors like this...  If you
look at the UWP stats for the sectors they did (Solomani Rim, Spinward
Marches, Diaspora) they cooked the books, did them by hand.  These
sectors were the better for it...  

DGP in creating all those sectors on the net, used a random number 
generator that wasn't all that random, and badly flawed besides...
David Nilsen referred to it once as "a needle stuck in the same 
groove."  A lot of the DGP sectors were badly flawed..

As for me, I'd rather see IG use their limited resources to develop a 
few sectors in detail.  There are about a half dozen sector 
generators floating around in various places on the net.  I can roll 
my own for the others if I want...or write my own, but I can assure 
you that the randomly generated Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim 
would look a lot different than they would be if GDW hadn't done them 
by hand to begin with...

Give me the world positions...  I can do the number crunching just as 
easy as IG could.
Stu

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:55:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526

On 12 Oct 96 at 16:26, FarFuture@aol.com did pontificate:

> There is no way that we can detail 20,000 star systems. And I think
> that just leaving the UWPs to the computer provides information
> without substance. The concept I have is that we WILL detail several

Thank you...  I can computer generate sectors just as easily as IG, 
and much more cheaply (cost of paper and electricity).  Heck, without 
world writeups UWP's are pretty dry, dull  stuff anyways...  I would 
not want to pay for a First Survey book that had 20,000 of them in it 
without writeups...

> areas (the places mentioned in the Outline). By leaving large
> expanses blank (specifically within the territory of the upcoming
> Imperium) we make it possible for your adventurers to particpate in
> defining theteritory.

I don't know about the GM's (a lot of 'em here anyways), but the 
players will probably have more fun this way...

> And as we define some specific worlds (like Spires), you get to
> decide where they are placed within a sector or group of sectors.

Best news of all.  I can transplant them where I want...which is what 
I do anyways with world writeups.  Marc, thank you for your input, and 
I for 1 think that you're doing good to avoid choking T4 to death with "canon"

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:05:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Why did those damnable unexplored Core worlds move?

On 13 Oct 96 at 1:57, Bill Rutherford spewed:

> I may've missed it, but has IG/FFI ever said WHY they changed the
> star locations in Core?  I've seen quite a bit about how the star

Here's a spin on this that nobody may have considered...

ALL previous references to the Core subsector are DGP property 
(Traveller Digest, Post of UWP to GEnie).  Right now from what I 
understand from Roger Sanger, IG wouldn't be able to publish the Core 
subsector as it previously existed in Traveller Digest, which is after all, 
the property of DGP, until they signed an agreement with DGP either 
to publish it, or to license DGP to publish it.

It is possible that they could have published the DGP sector data 
from GEnie, which is essentially Public Domain, but right now, they 
couldn't reuse the world writeups from Traveller Digest if they 
wanted to...

Maybe Marc could correct me on this, but as far as I know, IG has no 
right to republish DGP material if they wanted to, which is 
essentially what some of us are suggesting they do...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:11:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Unexplored worlds again

On 13 Oct 96 at 16:06, Andrew Boulton spewed:

> In-Reply-To: <9610102239.AA19204@NS.MPGN.COM>
> 
> ...and another thing: what's IG going to do when they publish
> Millieux 200, or Second Survey, or whatever? Is this 'hole' in the
> map still going to be there? I bloody hope not! Publishing the data
> now means what, another days work for someone at IG, whereas
> publishing it in a year or two is guaranteed to **** up any campaign
> that's visited them.

Except Milieu 200 will be Aslan Border Wars...  Nowhere near the Core 
sector...  

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:28:53 -0800
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

On 11 Oct 96 at 19:29, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In mail you write:
> 
> Shouldn't that be:
> 
> "I _know_ the briefing said these TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this
>  platoon has Tech-8 gear. If you survive the battle you can discuss
>  it to your heart's content with division intel..."
> 
> :-)

Actually, try this on for size...

"I know the briefing said these TED troops are TL 6...this platoon 
has TL 8 gear.  If we make it through the mission, some REMF at intel 
probably won't live to repeat the mistake..."

:-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:07:37 +0000
Subject: Task System

New Task System

I call this M-DGP.3

It is very similiar to DGP=B9s with three exceptions:
1. the first number is 8, rather than seven to allow for greater attribut=
e bonuses
2. the modifiers for attributes is (attribute/3) rather than by five beca=
use it makes having      =20
stats other than 5, 10 and 15 worthwhile
3. the task numbers are in increments of 3, reducing the harsh jumps of t=
he original DGP=20
system. This is also the number for an average person (attribute 7 (mod 2=
) and skill 1)

2     Very Easy
5     Easy
8     Average
11   Difficult
14   Formidable
17   Staggering
20   Impossible

Spectacular success is success by one level (ie you need average and your=
 total roll is 11,=20
you got a spectacular success
Spectacular Failure is failure by one level. (ie if you needed difficult =
and failed to even=20
get average, then you have a spectacular failure)

This system works on the following bases:
1. It is simple
2. It is familiar
3. it uses 2D6
4. It is easy to figure out spectacular results
5. with the attribute divisor as it is (3), for an average person attribu=
tes are more=20
important at skill level one, equal at two and skills are more important =
from then on.

You could even add in DGP=B9s very well thought out time increment (when =
applicable)=20
and mods (ie hasty, cautious, hazardous etc.)

Please feel free to rip into me on this, I really would like to hear abou=
t how you feel on=20
this

Thanks

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #549
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 13 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 550

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Transplanted hominids
         2. Revised World Generation Article - Take III
         3. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
         4. Re: IISS Uniforms
         5. Update #4: Odds & Ends Auction.
         6. Shipyard: Yacht

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:07:12 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Transplanted hominids

After discussing this with my 2 resdient paleoanthropologists, I'm
told that 300,000 years ago in in the _H.erectus_ archaic
_H.sapiens_ transition period.  _H.erectus_ is found until 500,000
years ago, and archaic sapiens (including neandertals) are found in
the 250,000-200,000 years ago time frame.  There are few specimens
in between, but they are robust compared to modern humans.

Anyway, I thought I'd clear that up.

As it relates to traveller, it means that the transplanted humans
were at the very least probably (this would depend on the location
of grandfather's abductions as well) very human looking (more human
than erectus).

They'd keep the robust form (big bones) on higher grav worlds, and
become more gracile on lower grav worlds.  Humans have become
lighter framed since the onset of agriculture, so you'd expect the
other human races in traveller to look more or less like us.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:20:48 GMT
Subject: Revised World Generation Article - Take III

I'm trying it from another server instead of the normal
BBS-to-Internet gateway.  This time, it had better work, or I'm
going to start looking for another ISP.  Apologies for the wasted
bandwidth...
- -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
I've gotten a copy of the article below and started modifying it
for Freelance Traveller.  I need some information from the list:

=46irst, if you're one of the authors, please identify your
contribution to the article.  I've identified mine and Jim
Vassilakos's; I'm not familiar enough with other people's
writing styles and thought processes to be able to even identify
where one contribution ends and the next begins.

Second, I need current e-mail addresses for everyone below.
Mine is correct - I haven't changed it; Jim's is correct as well.
I'm pretty sure that Derek's has changed, but I'm not sure to
what; the others I haven't heard from or seen posts from in quite
some time.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

Alternative World Generation systems for Traveller

By Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Jim Vassilakos <jimv@empirenet.com>
Derek Wildstar <wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu>
Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
Bruce Pihlamae <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au>
Steve Bonneville <bonn0015@gold.tc.umn.edu>

[Editor's Note: This document was originally written with the
_Traveller:_The_New_Era_ world generation sequence in mind. It
has been updated by Jeff Zeitlin to reflect changes from those
systems to _Marc_Miller's_Traveller_.]

(r) Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises,
(c)1996. All rights reserved. Use of the trademark in this
document is not intended to imply any official connection with
the holder of the trademark or any licensee, nor to infringe upon
or devalue the trademark.

- ----------------------------------------------------------
Jim Vassilakos's Psychological Effects of Planetary Development

The order in which UWP statistics are generated is non-intuitive:

1.Starport Class                5.Population Exponent
2.World Size                    6.Government Type
3.Atmosphere Type               7.Law Level
4.Hydrographic Percentage       8.Technological Level

Why is the starport generated first? It would be more sensible
for starport type to be determined by traffic, and traffic to be
determined by population. Consider generating starport type
after population. Making this one change, look at cause and
effect in the rules:

Statistic                       Modifiers
- --------------------------------------------------------
World Size                      no modifiers
Atmosphere Type                 Size
Hydrographic Percentage         Atmosphere and Size
Population Exponent             no modifiers
Starport Type                   no modifiers
Government Type                 Population Exponent
Law Level                       Government Type
Technological Level             Everything except law level

Regardless of its features, the primary world or asteroid belt
in one system is just as likely to have a population of x as the
primary world or asteroid belt in any other system. This is less
than obvious.

Think about it. You roll up some dinky little ice-ball as the
main world in your star system -- surely the fact that this tiny
lump of rock has no atmosphere, that it has no liquid water, and
that it hasn't even a modicum of elbow room, makes it less
likely to have a population of 50 billion people than the garden
terra-prime paradise just a couple of parsecs down the road.
Yes... you can explain it away. You can say, "Oh, there's this
wonderful lanthanum mine." Or you can say. "These people live
here... because it's their home" (and then smile convincingly).
But it doesn't work. This isn't a little inconsistency. This is
a whopping big one.

Jim's 1st Law on main-world generation:
Given that everything else is more or less equal, people will
tend to migrate to the place that is "nicer". Worlds with a nice
atmosphere, some actual water, and so forth, will attract large
populations which will in turn build decent starports. Planets
that aren't so nice (you know the ones I'm talking about) will
not attract people, and hence are unlikely to have lots of
traffic or well-equipped starports.

[Note that `people' is implicitly humans -- not necessarily the
case on all worlds.]

Jim's 2nd Law:
People will attain the resources (technology) that they need to
survive, such that those resources are available. If you're
really sure that you're going to live on Sonthert/Lanth, then
you're going to make sure you have the technology to survive on
a near-vacuum planet. (Sonthert, alas, is rated TL3.)

The philosophy of high and low tech worlds living side by side
is also questionable. It can be argued that it's possible for a
short duration such as a few decades, or given special political
or social circumstances. But in general, over the course of
centuries, eventually there will either be a leveling process or
the low Technological Level regions will gain in technology.

The counter-argument to Jim's 1st Law is that all things are not
equal. Otherwise, why would anyone live in Chicago when they
could move to Hawaii? (Most people would class the latter as
nicer than the former!) The answer is economics. People are too
poor to move, don't have skills, have family ties. Moreover, if
there are no jobs at the new planet, who is going to move there?
Equally, the world profiles don't tell the whole story. Just
because a place has a "nice" profile - average size, average
atmosphere, average hydrographics -- doesn't mean the rest of it
is fun. The planet could be too hot, too cold, inhabited by
vorpal bunnies, or whatever.

It is also possible that "blue-sky" Terra-norm worlds might in
some cases be more difficult to settle than less inviting worlds
- -- there'll be life down there, and who knows what might do to
prospective settlers? Vacuum worlds are much more predictable,
and with proper planning might also be easier on the equipment.
So more people might settle there, especially if the colony is
well established -- a vacuum world colony interior can be much
more sophisticated and spacious than, say, Moonbase Alpha.

Jim's Modified Main-world Generation Procedure:

Changes from the standard procedure are *italicized*.

World Size. Roll 2d6-2.

Atmosphere Type. Roll 2d6-7+World Size.
if World Size is 0 then Atmosphere Type 0.
confine range to 0-F.

Hydrographics Percentage. Roll 2d6-7+*World Size*.
if Atmosphere Type is 1 or less, then DM -4
if World Size is *1 or less*, then Hydrographics Percentage 0
if Atmosphere Type is A-C then DM -4
confine range to 0-A

Population Exponent. Roll 2d6-2.
*if World Size is 2 or less, DM -1*
*if Atmosphere Type is 3 or less, DM -3*
*if Atmosphere Type is A, DM -2*
*if Atmosphere Type is B, DM -3*
*if Atmosphere Type is C, DM -4*
*if Atmosphere Type is 6, DM +3*
*if Atmosphere Type is 5 or 8, DM +1*
*if Hydrographics Percentage is 0 and Atmosphere Type is 3 or
greater, DM -2*
*confine range to 0-A*

Starport Type. Roll 2d6.
*if Population Exponent is 0 then Starport Type X*
*if Population Exponent is 1, DM +2*
*if Population Exponent is 2, DM +1*
*if Population Exponent is 6-9, then DM -1*
*if Population Exponent is A, then DM -2*
*confine range to A-X*

Government Type. Roll 2d6-7+Population Exponent.
*if population exponent is 0 then government 0*
*confine range to 0-F*

Law Level. Roll 2d6-7+Government Type.
*if government type is 0 then law level 0*
*confine lower bound of range to 0*

Technological Level. Roll d6.
Modify as per the standard chart.
*if Population Exponent 0 then Technological Level 0*
*otherwise, if Hydrographic Percentage is 0 or A and Population
Exponent is at least 6, then Technological Level must at least
be 4.*
*if Atmosphere Type is 4, 7 or 9, then Technological Level must
be at least be 5.*
*if Atmosphere Type is 3 or less, or A-C, then Technological
Level must at least be 7.*
*if Hydrographic Percentage is A, then Technological Level must
be at least be 7.*
confine lower bound of range to 0

Some example UWPs from this system:

X211000-0    E475100-8    D86A6BB-7    X410000-0    A410446-B
C66266B-6    E98A237-8    X573220-5    A748483-C    A85A766-C
A867657-B    C310235-7    B220532-D    X473000-0    A665ADD-E
A8599A8-C    C738475-8    A5588B7-9    C634523-8    B332334-9
D545456-5    C575553-7    C110221-8    A667785-7    E75A466-4
D795679-5    C754575-9    E678112-6    X311000-0    X528211-8
B471322-B    C874663-6    D453643-4    C668989-9    B5438AE-8
C87A564-6    C474278-8    X226000-0    C410230-7    X303156-8
B9B4230-7    A5949C9-A    A685876-7    C594100-8    C539343-7
X9A8000-0    X120000-0    B457867-6    B2518CD-B    A631453-F

Note that there are some conspicuous differences between this
data and "normal" UWP listings. There are more uninhabited or
very low-population star systems under the modified rules. This
will probably bring down the average starport rating for any
given region. Also, there are very few low-tech star systems.
The lowest here are both TL4, and in both cases, they've got a
breathable atmospheres. As expected, the less-hospitable worlds
tend to have lower populations and seedier starports. More
surprising is the existence of several lush (atmos=3D6) worlds
with under ten million inhabitants. The system usually has high
populations clustered on those worlds. However, when we look at
the highest population world in this run, we see that it has a
standard atmosphere, so these results are fairly plausible.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Zeitlin's Theory of Government Technological Interference

It can be argued that law level will have an effect on tech
level. The more oppressive a society is, the less likely it is
that geniuses will appear and create the new technology. Earth
history supports this view; the cultures that made the largest
advances in technology were the ones with high levels of
personal freedom. Certainly, other, less free cultures may do a
better job of exploiting some forms of technology, but they'll
probably acquire it from a culture that is more free. One would
hardly expect a totally oppressive theocracy to be innovative...

At No Law, there is no way of ensuring that the person who
develops new technology will be able to profit from it. If
something is good, it will be used by anyone who can get their
hands on it, and without paying. This reduces the incentive to
research.

At Low Law, there may be some protection, so there will be some
innovation. However, the government will normally not be
powerful or influential enough to make large investments in
research; this will offset part of the benefit gained from the
protection afforded intellectual property.

At Moderate Law, you will typically have a government that has
the power, influence, and revenue to invest in research, and
sufficient freedom of information exchange to make it profitable
(in terms of results). However, at this stage, the government
will probably have a tendency to want to direct the research,
rather than dropping the cash on the table, sitting back, and
saying, "O.K. folks, let's see what you can come up with."

This directive tendency will continue at higher law levels, and
with the continuing decrease in personal freedom and freedom of
information exchange, and increasing compartmentalization of
research, the return on investment will typically drop heavily.
At some point, the government will probably decide that research
is unproductive of results, and tech will stagnate (Look at the
USSR on Terra in -2531 - most of their technology was acquired
through intelligence gathering).

Thus the suggested modifiers to TL based on Law Level:

Law Level                    Modifier
- -------------------------------------
No Law or Moderate Law       none
Low Law                      +1
High Law                     -1
Extreme Law (A-C)            -2
Extreme Law (D-E)            -3
Extreme Law (F-G)            -4
Extreme Law (H or greater)   -5

In a similar vein, one can also suggest a new table for the
effect of government type on tech level.  Note that this table
is intended to replace the Government Type modifier to the Tech
Level table in the basic rules:

Government Code    Modifier
- ---------------------------
0                  none
1                  +3
2                  +2
3                  none
4                  +1
5                  +2
6                  -2
7                  See note
8                  -1
9                  -1
A                  none
B                  -1
C                  none
D                  -3

Note: For balkanized worlds, generate the national governments
of interest, and use the above table. If the table specifies a
negative modifier, change the modifier to be one unit closer to
"none" to account for intelligence (espionage) effects (i.e., a
- -1 modifier becomes "none", a -2 modifier becomes -1, and so
on).

Rationale:
+0 modifiers - When there is no formal government structure, any
new technology developed is unprotected, save by individual
effort. In this event, even if the technology is developed, it
will be slow to be released, because of concerns of the
developer profiting from it (i.e. the developer wants to; others
may be more willing to steal the technology than buy it).

In a benign oligarchy, or a charismatic dictatorship, it is less
likely that those in power will hear about good ideas that are
not developed within the governmental structure, thus reducing
the chance of advancement. Such a government, however, will not
necessarily reject an idea if it hears about it.

+ modifiers - A company has the utmost interest in development
of technology that will allow them to achieve higher return on
investment. Ideas will be actively sought after, and explored
for their profit-making potential. Democracies have a high level
of personal freedom and will tend to allow ideas to percolate
around without interference. Coupled with laws protecting
intellectual property, and the fact that the government will
generally be pretty busy trying to prostitute itself to the
special interests acting in the name of "the people," there will
probably be significant opportunity for ideas to be pursued
despite theoretical restrictions on the use of government funds.
The less a government has to deal directly with the people, the
more it will be able to direct research, thus the lower DM for a
representative democracy vs. a participatory democracy.

- - modifiers - The fundamental obstacles to technological
progress in these governments are multiple: insularity from
people outside the government, doctrinaire educational policies,
rewarding of conformity over individual initiative, personal
paranoia (in the case of dictatorships), conservatism (including
but not limited to religious orthodoxy and extremism)... All of
these combine, to varying degrees, and result in an inability to
develop ideas once they are presented, and a further reluctance
for individuals to present their ideas for fear of being
condemned or persecuted for them (recall Nazi Germany's attitude
towards "Jewish Physics").

Note that these are only guidelines; fiddle with them to suit
your needs. Some of the factors cited for negative modifiers
might be at work in governments that have positive modifiers,
and vice-versa.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Also, star type does affect the rest of planetary generation;
the combination of M-V stars and hospitable (even agricultural)
worlds isn't entirely realistic. So if we do add stellar data in
for 'feel', we should take care not to make the same mistake as
GDW: i.e., we should first generate star-type according to known
stellar frequency data and then generate the mainworld, applying
modifiers to the UWP data as applicable. This would probably
make "inhospitable" worlds even more common than in the modified
system above.

Life and Resources:
One way of expanding upon the limited set of generation rules
would be to extend the number of statistics to include:

Resources (independent) - an indicator of the available natural
resources on the world. A high value indicates extensive,
high-quality, and/or readily exploitable resources (mineral,
fossil, vegetable, or animal - this is non-specific, except that
it indicates the presence or absence of resources which
otherwise aren't shown in the UWP). Throw 2d6-2 for Resources;
modifiers subject to Referee whim (for example, the Spinward
Marches is known to be deficient in heavy elements; perhaps a
modifier of -1 to the whole Marches to reflect this?). Restrict
the result to the range 0-F.

Life (dependent on atmosphere and hydrosphere) - A general index
to the prevalence and variety of life on the world. A low score
would indicate a barren world (your average asteroid or iceball)
while high numbers indicate a thriving and diverse biosphere
Throw 2d6-2; DM-8 for Vacuum, Trace, or Insidious atmospheres,
- -6 for Very Thin or Corrosive, -4 for Exotic, -2 for Dense/High,
Ellipsoid, or Thin/Low, No modifier for Thin Tainted, Standard
Tainted, or Dense Tainted, and +2 for Thin, Standard, or Dense.
Also apply a hydrosphere modifier: -4 if 0, -2 if 1, None if
2-5, +1 if 6-9, -1 if A. Other modifiers can be used too: a +1
for worlds settled or influenced by the Ancients, First
Imperium, or Rule of Man (old colonies or terraforming efforts).
If Stellar Types are being used, an additional modifier for the
suitability of the star might not be a bad idea. Restrict to the
range 0-F.

The resources score can be used to justify settlements on
otherwise inhospitable worlds, and should serve as a positive DM
for population. The rationale is that there is some type of
valuable resource present (which doesn't otherwise show on the
UWP), and therefore it is likely that someone has come (despite
the hardship) to exploit it. A suggestion for interpreting
resources scores:

Resource Score          Interpretation
- ---------------------------------
0                       Barren
1-4                     Poor
5-8                     Moderate
9-C                     Rich
D or greater            Extremely Rich

Poor: Basic chemical diversity necessary to support indigenous
life. Otherwise, no claim to fame.

Moderate: One solid natural-resource industry. Roll on table 10a
of the MegaTraveller Referee's Manual. Re-roll 34-54 if life < 4
(see above). Re-roll 65 if life < 5. Re-roll 55-56 if life < 8.
Re-roll 61-64 if life < 9. Re-roll 66 if life < A.

Rich: Two natural-resources industries, one of which commands
strong subsector-wide influence.

Extremely Rich: Three natural-resource industries, one of which
commands sector-wide influence.

Note: The GM should translate natural-resource industries into
their manufacturing/processing (2nd stage) industries as seems
appropriate. See MegaTraveller Referee's Manual (pg52) for
possibilities.

Another note: Under this system, the resource statistic is
rolled before the life statistic, and the life statistic is
rolled before the specific industries are determined. A better
method would be to select a resource type (using Table 10a, or
some other source), and roll 1d6. This is the "amount" of this
resource, but not more than the resource score of the world. The
process would repeat until the entire resource score is
accounted for. For example:

Resource score (2D) =3D 10
1st Resource: #61, Livestock. Amount: 5
2nd Resource: #42, Plants (wood). Amount: 4
3rd Resource: #63, Livestock. Amount: 1 (a 3 was rolled).

So, our hypothetical world produces Livestock at Level 6 (the
two livestock resources add, at the referee's discretion), and
Plants (wood) at Level 4.

Comparing all of the scores and types within the subsector and
within the sector will reveal the primary producers of
particular goods.

The Life score can be used to get a "feel" for the native
biosphere, and to gauge whether or not there is a native race to
consider. One suggestion (for a campaign with few advanced
"minor" races) was:

0: Sterile
1: Amino Acids
2: Single-celled organisms
3: Multicellular bacteria
4: Simple vegetation
5: Complex vegetation
6: Microscopic insects & sea life
7: Macroscopic insects
8: Macroscopic sea life
9: Land/Air-based herbivores
A: Land/Air-based predators
B: Large/Complex predators
C: Tool use
D: Fire use
E: Agriculture
=46: Symbology (full sentience, TL=3D0)

D, E, and F may be given higher degrees of technology. While the
use of tools and fire is pretty much a clincher for sentient or
semi-sentient creatures, by the time they are practicing
agriculture the society is pretty much at TL-0.

These distinctions should really be made as part of the details
for the native sentient or semi-sentient race. The exact stage
of development should probably be determined by the referee
during the "world building" stage of generating planetary
details.

It might well be better to have the Life score as independent of
the natives' TL as possible. The Life score can be used to
determine whether or not there *are* natives, but their TL is
more properly the province of the world's tech level.

Alternatively:
Life Score
0 =3D Sterile (although "organic" compounds may be present).
1 =3D Pre-Life (sophisticated "organic" compounds, precursors to
life).
2+ Some Life Present (at least single-"cell" simple organisms).

As the Life score increases, the number and size of the
ecosystems increase, as does the number and complexity of the
organisms which can be found there. Remember that this applies
equally to native life-forms as well as "imported" forms (due to
activity of the Ancients, colonization, or simply by accident).
The minima for native development of a given complexity can be
figured out from the table below.

Whether or not you apply modifiers to the Life score based on
the stellar zone the planet is in (inner, habitable, or outer)
depends on your views on really outrageous biochemistries. If
you believe that sentient life can evolve in ecospheres in gas
giants or on ultra-cold (or ultra-hot) worlds, the zone
modifiers should be no more than -2 or -4. In this case, I'd
suggest using a -3 for Inner and Outer Zone worlds, and a
modifier of 0 for worlds in the habitable zone. This is probably
compatible with the Classic Traveller vision of the universe,
with intelligent gas-giant dwellers and all sorts of exotic
life-forms, and sentient life-forms are all over the place,
although many of them aren't really "life as we know it".

While the above pretty accurately describes the way I feel, I
certainly understand if this isn't everybody's cup of tea. For a
lot less life in general, and a lot less intelligent life, try
the following modifiers:

- -1 if not a Main Sequence (size V) star
- -1 if not a Spectral Class F or G star
- -6 if in Inner Zone
- -4 if in Outer Zone

This should cause the most life to cluster around the habitable
zone of class F and G Main Sequence stars (in other words, stars
like the Sun or a little brighter). Thus, most life will be
"life as we know it", and will be much less prevalent than in
the first method.

Now throw 2d6 and subtract the results from the Life Score:
0- No significant native organisms (all "boring" or imported).
1 =3D "Interesting" native single-cell organisms.
2 =3D "Interesting" native microscopic (multicellular) organisms.
3 =3D "Interesting" native plants (macroscopic).
4 =3D "Interesting" native animals (non-sentient).
5 =3D Complex native ecosystem (multiple "Interesting" organisms).
6+ Native Sentient or near-Sentient life (always interesting).

The second throw should probably be part of the "world building"
procedure, and not part of the basic generation.

Once the throw is made, the referee will then have to decide (as
part of the detailed world description) what the "interesting"
things about the planet are. The followings are minima for
native life forms:
0 =3D Sterile
1 =3D Pre-Life
2 =3D Life (maybe even pre-cellular life)
3 =3D Single-Celled organisms
4 =3D Multicellular organisms
5 =3D "Plant" life
6 =3D Animal life
7 =3D Complex ecosystems
8 =3D MINIMUM for native sentient organisms.

Please note that it is possible for a world to have a Life score
of 12, but not have any "interesting" native life. One
possibility is a world that has been colonized, and the
colonist's imported plants and animals have out-competed the
native ecosystem, which as become nearly extinct. This is a
definite possibility, particularly on worlds that have been
civilized for thousands of years. Another possibility is a world
that is covered with oceans, which are literally filled with an
amazing diversity of single-celled organisms. Literally every
square centimeter of the world's surface would have something
living on it. Although such a world might have a relatively high
Life rating, it may only rate as having "interesting"
single-celled organisms. For figuring out a world in the context
of a long-standing interstellar community, you can use Resources
to represent the attractiveness of the world to the "outside"
starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be used as a basis
for determining whether there is a "native" culture to interact
with.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
That's how the article stands at this microsecond.  If any of
the authors would like to change their contributions, identify
your contribution and let me know what changes to make.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jeff Zeitlin                             jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jeff Zeitlin                                      =
jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:24:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman) said:

>In my game I have three levels of encumberance: Unencumbered, encumbered
>and heavily encumbered and the weights are:
>STR      Unenc.      Unc.      H Enc.
>1-2       1 kg       2 kg      5 kg
>3-5       2 kg       5 kg      10 kg
>6-8       5 kg       10 kg     20 kg
>9-11      10 kg      20 kg     50 kg
>12-14     20 kg      50 kg     100 kg
>15+       50 kg      100 kg    200 kg
>Stuff carried in backpack count as half.
>Armor worn count as half.
>My definition of 'in backpack' is 'not easily reached' so the players don't
>start to construct ingenious backholsters and the like.
>Unencumbered characters can sprint (DEX 14+ guys make 100m in 10s)
>Encumbered characters can trot
>Heavily encumbered characters can walk

Note that these movement rates are for entire time periods of overland
travel.  I was in the Army, and can tell you that even 20kg can drag you
down after a time.  50kg is about 110lbs, I know nobody who would operate at
effectivly over a four hour period carrying that kind of weight.  441lbs is
a lot for even a STR 15 PC to carry for hours.. this is what Olympic-class
weightlifters do in the clean and jerk, and they don't walk anywhere!

The "in-backpack" should cut the effective weight by about a third, not
half.  While having the load distributed on your shoulders and hips helps,
you are still carrying it.  Since Load Bearing Equipment is designed to both
distribute loads and provide easy access to the equpment, I'd make some
exception for *legitimate* calls..  



+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:29:42 -0700
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Marc spoke thus:

>As for uniform colors, I thought they changes the color every several
>decades. 

I always had a problem with the semi-loons that join the Scout Service
wearing uniforms.  Most Scout Base commanders are happy when everyone wears
clothing, never mind what it looks like...

Reminds me of the time that we were ordered to appear before the Archduke of
Sol, in "full dress uniform".  Alright for the Navy and Marine types, I
showed up in my nightmare vision of Imperial chic..

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:44:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Update #4: Odds & Ends Auction.

   
   Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
   - $12   scharlto@rtd.com
   
   Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
   - $16   scharlto@rtd.com
   
   Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
   - $20   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
   
   The Flaming Eye
   - $17   jsnead@netcom.com
   
   Traveller Adventure
   - $10   tiger@datasync.com
   
   Alien Module #8: Darrians
   - $17   beck@mail.all-net.net
   
   Challenge Magazine #25
   - $6    beck@mail.all-net.net
    
   Traveller Chronicle Magazine #9
   - $6    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
   
   2300AD - S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans
   - $6    scharlto@rtd.com
   
   Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"
   - $7    scharlto@rtd.com
   
   Laserburn Sci. Fi. Combat Rules
   - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
   
   New Additions:
   
   White Dwarf Magazine #13 - "Suggested additions to Traveller, Part 1"
   - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
   
   White Dwarf Magazine #16 - "Suggested  additions to Traveller, Part 4"
   - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
  
   White Dwarf Magazine #17 - "Sable Rose Affair" (Trav. adv.)
   - $2    douglas@point.com
  
   White Dwarf Magazine #28 - "On Target" (Rules addition), "Sorry" (Trav. adv.)
   - $2    douglas@point.com
  
   Voyages SF Magazine #11 
   - $1    scharlto@rtd.com
   
   Voyages SF Magazine #13  - "Exercise" (Trav. fiction)
   - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com - "Katlin C. Buchannon" (Trav. 
                                     starship/deckplans)                      
                            - "Sanity In Space" (Rules addition)
   
   Different Worlds Magazine #23 - "Terraforming, Part 2" (Rules addition)
   - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com  
 
   Gameplay Magazine #5
   (Good condition)
   
   Gameplay Magazine #7
   (Good condition)
   
   2300AD - Kafer Dawn
   GDW
   
   Tales of the Concordat #2: "Voyage of the Planetslayer"
   Jefferson Swycaffer
   - $3    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

   Tales of the Concordat #3: "Revolt and Rebirth"
   Jefferson Swycaffer
   - $3    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com 
   
   Planet in Peril
   O'Neill & Mohan
   
   Sniper! - Special forces
   SPI
     



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:38:03 +0000 ()
Subject: Shipyard: Yacht

Hy folks,

	somebody asked for a yacht some weeks ago. Unfortunately
	this is probately not the yacht he asked, but its nice
	to provide the comunity with old german CT fanzine material.

	If you need the GIF or dosnt understand the "Last Sane" paragraph
	look at http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller/shipyard.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

  			----- CUT HERE -----

<h1>	TL 10 Yacht
</h1>
	These ship resembles a CT design from Ingo Martin, published
	in 1984 in Mythos Nr. 19, a small fanzine from a group called
	Friedberger Kreis around Elsa Franke who later made Midgard,
	which is THE german fantasy RPG. (forget about Schwarzes Auge
	they are Schmidt Spiele and came years later to dig the gold)
<p>
	The CT stat where :
<ul>
<li>	200 Tonnes
<li>	Tech Level : 10
<li>	Crew 4
<li>	Jump drive A - 1 parsec
<li>	Thuster drive A - 1 G
<li>	Computer Model/1 - 2/4 standart software
<li>	Fuel 50 tonnes, enough for 4 weeks and 2 jumps
<li>	1 hard point
<li>	Price (including air raft and launch) 51 MCr
</ul>
	This ship is now rebuild on several yards in Gushemege, as
	the empire of the "Last Sane" provides enough freight capacity
	that there is no need for human driven cargo ships. In addition
	to the original design, this ship has a contra graph and a fuel
	scope.
<p>
	The crews of these ships especialy like that its posible to
	build and repair even main parts on nearly any hinterword in
	the wilds. Some of them also mention that the empires thinks
	that tech level A computers are to stupid for a full grown
	AI, and that therefore the ship is flight by hand.
<p>	
	In respect of the modern times the ships mainframes are normaly
	equiped with a sophisticated anti virus software, which has in
	games terms a defensive combat value of 7. In addition KP2 provides
	a tech level F tuneable laser with an interface for the tech level A
	sensor package of this ship. They also sell a better active sensor
	packages (tech level F, 300.000 km active EMS, ladar, fibre optics
	fire control, EMS jammer) which is often additionaly installed.
<p>
<Center>
<IMG SRC = "yacht.gif">
</Center>
<Pre>
General Data:
	Displacement :   200 dt     	Tech Level :    10
	Length       :  23.6 meters 	Volume     :  2800 m3
	Hull         :  1441 m2     	Armor      :    10
	Mass         :   788 tons   	Load       :    11 dt

Engineering Data:
	Hull             : 19 m3, 1.4 dt, 198 tons
	Power plant      : 188 MW, 122 m3, 8.7 dt, 378 tons
	Jump performance : 1 (Drive 56 m3, 4.0 dt, Mass 12 tons)
	G-Rating         : 1G (Thusters 100 MW, 10 m3)
	G-Turns          : 36 (58 using jump fuel) 12.5 m3 of fuel each
	Contra Graph     : 40 MW, 60 m3, 4.3 dt, 60 tons
	Fuel scope       : 3.0 m3, 24 hours to refine 730 m3, 52.1 dt

Electronics:
	Controll system  : Dynamic linked 0.20 MW, 2.8 m3, 0.28 tons
	Computer         : 3*St Dynamic 0.90 MW, 18.0 m3, 3.60 tons
	Avionics         : TL 8+ 0.1 MW 
	Commo            : Radio 30,000 km 1.0 MW 
	                 : Maser 1000 AU 0.6 MW 0.1 m3 0.2 tons 
	Sensors          : Aktive EMS 3,000 km 8.0 MW 1.6 m3 3.2 tons 
	                 : Passive EMS 30,000 km 0.3 m3 0.6 tons 
	Controlls        : 5 Workstations 28.0 m3 0.2 tons 

Armament:
	Weapons          : Turret Sockes 42.0 m3 

Accomodations:
	Life Support     : Extendet 0.19 MW, 15.2 m3, 15 tons for 1900 m3
	Passenger        : large staterooms 56.0 m3 4.0 tons 
	                 : 12 small staterooms 28.0 m3 2.0 tons 
	                 : common area 140.0 m3 
	Airlocks         : - 42.0 m3 0.2 tons 
	Fuel             : one additonal jump 280.0 m3 20.0 tons 
	Launch           : large hangar 560.0 m3 
	Cargo            : large cargo hatch 
	                 : 164 m3 11 dt
</Pre>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #550
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 14 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 551

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 Weapons Addendum:  TL 5 Grenades
         2. Re: USENET (for Joe Walsh)
         3. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
         4. Re: Why did those damnable unexplored Core worlds 
         5. Re: rec.games.frp.misc
         6. Re: Still running TNE
         7. Re: Still running TNE
         8. Re: M. Falcon
         9. Re: A few Questions/Comments
        10. Re: A few Questions/Comments
        11. Re: 2D Task System
        12. Re: M-DGP.3 Task System
        13. Re: First Survey
        14. Traveller at U-Con
        15. RE: Moving Planets
        16. Re: M-DGP.3 Task System
        17. Re: 2D Task System
        18. Re: T4 still not in Germany (and other countries)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 15:58 PDT
Subject: T4 Weapons Addendum:  TL 5 Grenades

Here folks,

I was working on my weapons table and worked up grenades from real world
specs.  Here are
some of the more common, converted to T4 stats...

Personal request, Greg Porter & and anyone on the list, want to sanity check
my damage ratings?

HAND GRENADES

THERMITE
Damage:  7 (energy) continuous.
Weight: 0.90 kg
Eff. Rng.: 25 m
Fuse Delay: 2 seconds
NOTE: The grenade will burn at 2200 C and will destroy any equipment it is
placed on and will ignite any flammable material within 2 m.  The grenade
will burn its way throw 15 mm of armour plate and will burn underwater.  The
burns for 60 seconds.

SMOKE
Damage: will ignite flamables
Weight: 0.67 kg
Eff. Rng.: 30 m
Fuse Delay: 2 seconds
NOTE: The grenade will burn for 120 seconds.  While the grenade is burning
the canister reaches 1200 C.  The colours available for this grenade are
white, yellow, green, red, blue, purple, orange.  Smoke acts as a visible
marker.

FRAGMENTATION
Damage: 7f
Weight: 0.40 kg
Eff. Rng.: 40 m
Fuse Delay: 4 Seconds
Burst Radius: 15 m
NOTE:  This is the standard small, fragmentation explosive thrown at a target.

WHITE PHOSPHORUS FRAGMENTATION
Damage: 4f, (energy) continuous
Weight: 0.76 kg
Eff. Rng.: 30 m
Fuse Delay: 4 seconds
Burst Radius: 35 m
NOTE: The fragments burn at 2700 C for 60 seconds.

IRRITANT
Damage: 2 (non damage but continuous negative DM to actions)
Weight: 0.43 kg
Eff. Rng.: 40 m
Fuse Delay: 2 seconds
NOTE: The grenade will burn for 60 seconds, emitting a chemicl irritant,
causing eyes to swell shut and tear painfully.  Damage result equals total
- -DM to actions, reducing by 1 point per round.  Offset by Environmental
Combat skill level.

ILLUMINATING
Weight: 0.28 kg
Eff. Rng.: 40 m
Fuse Delay: 7 seconds
Burst Radius: 200 m
NOTE: This is a hand-thrown flare.  The grenade will illuminate the burst
radius with 55000 candlepower for 25 seconds.

CONCUSSION
Damage: 5
Weight: 0.44 kg
Eff. Rng.: 40 m
Fuse Delay: 4 seconds
Burst Radius: 2 m
NOTE: The grenade is not a fragmentation grenade.  It will cause concussive
damage only.

SOUND & FLASH
Damage: 2 (applied as a -DM to surprise for 1 round)
Weight: 0.25 kg
Eff. Rng.: 30 m
Fuse Delay: 2 to 3 seconds
Burst Radius: 10 m
NOTE: This grenade produces no fragmentation effect, but will stun anyone
with 175 db of sound and a 2.5 million candlepower flash. Special goggles
and ear protectors must be worn by the attackers in the area to protect them
from the blast effects.   The stun effects last only a few seconds.

MINI FRAGMENTATION
Damage: 5f
Weight: 0.10 kg
Eff. Rng.: 40 m
Fuse Delay: 4 seconds
Burst Radius: 8 m
NOTE: This is the smallest issue Frag grenade available.

IMPACT
Damage: 5f
Weight: 0.50 kg
Eff. Rng.: 40 m
Fuse Delay: Impact
Burst Radius: 25 m
NOTE:  This grenade explodes upon impact.
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:48:59 -0700
Subject: Re: USENET (for Joe Walsh)

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
>         Joe, as part of your 'duties', I suggest you post any information
> such as that you received from IG and posted here, to rec.games.frp.misc
> and/or rec.games.frp.announce. The bozos over there do at least have a point
> about the usefulness of updates for everyone, not just us here on the TML.
> If you can't do this for some reason, maybe someone else could repost any
> info you come up with.
>                                 Allen
I'm already doing it; I posted Joe's first infomail regarding IG after I
read it. However, it would be nice if mail could be posted to
rec.games.frp.misc at the same time it hits the TML. I'm can't spend
every evening on the Web (my wife requires *some*
attention...fortunately :-) ) and given the somewhat recent flamewar
that went on there, it seems to be getting more and more attention from
non-TML subscribers who play Traveller (or want to). I've noticed a
couple of threads regarding questions on the T4 rules which are, IMO, as
thought out and thought provoking as the ones in TML.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:02:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
> > Alan Shock wrote:
> > <snip> all their stats. (This is on page 59.) So, an average character with Str 7
> > can carry 7 kg. (about 15 pounds), and the most he can carry is 14 kg.
> > (about 31 pounds) unless he is in a military unit (it says nothing about
> > USED to be in a military unit), and then he can carry 21 kg. (or about 46
> > pounds).
> >         I think this is a little low. By way of comparison, most characters
> > in GURPS would have a 10 Str which is average. An average character in GURPS
> > can carry 20 pounds with no effect, 40 with only slight effect, so on up to
> > a maximum carry of
> > 200 pounds (for very short distances). A Traveller character STR is
> > encumbered by carrying a laser rifle even at Str A! Just think what a plasma
> > rifle would do!
> 
> How much hiking do you do?  :-)
> <snip>  Hell, I carry a pack a lot, and it still has an effect, even
> if it isn't a bad weight for me to carry.
> 
> -Merrick

I tend to agree with Merrick on this (and not just because I liked his
BL variant rules - plug!) ;-). I've done some backpacking over the
Continental Divide with a 10 lb. daypack and a 35 lb. pack and I'm
definitely in the STR 7 class. Even on easy trails, the daypack got old
after 4 hours of sitting on my shoulders. The 35 pounder felt like its
artillery counterpart after the same amount of time on the same trail.
IRIC, there was a backpack design published for Traveller somewhere
which included an antigrav unit. Woulda been nice...

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:47:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Why did those damnable unexplored Core worlds 

At 03:33 PM 10/13/96 EST, Stuart L. Dollar spewed:
<...cut>

>...ALL previous references to the Core subsector are DGP property  ... as
far as I know, IG has no right to republish DGP material if they wanted to,
which is essentially what some of us are suggesting they do...

Good point and one I'd not even considered!  I've little inkling of
copyright law and of the interrelationships btwn DGP, GDW, and IG/FFI, and
am certainly not suggesting IG violate copyright, but if what you say is in
fact the case, I hope they (DGP & IG) reach some amicable agreement that
results in DGP NOT simply fading from the Traveller scene, as I much liked a
lot of what they published (and, from what's appeared in TML, so did many
other folk). Tx for yr comment - it's the first I recall that tried to
address *why* things changed... - Bill


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:34:34 -0700
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.misc

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> I decided to just go ahead and post everything I report about IG to
> r.g.f.misc.  Those who read that newsgroup will see the messages from me
> on that subject.  Essentially, I posted the mini-FAQ, apologized for
> not doing so sooner, and promised to keep them informed.

Bless you!

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 09:28:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Still running TNE

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Hy Folks,
> 
>         I'm still running TNE, and anybody who is also infected
>         with virus, should take a look at my home page, especialy
>         the shipyard contain 3 new designs.
> 
>         BTW: As usual anybody should feel free to improve my grammar
>         and spelling.
> 
>         I'm also thinking about colapsing the sector data, and scanning
>         the Regency Sourcbook, Path Of Tears and Vampire Fleets. Has
>         anybody made some pocket empires I should include ? Has anybody
>         allready scanned the canon TNE sectors ?

Check Dave Golden's page.  I've created simple writeups for several of 
the known pocket empires' I've trying to find the time to write up the 
few remaining ones I know about but I'm so busy right now.  Working 9-10 
hours a day, editing a script for a friend, shuddder, waiting to hear 
back about my script blah blah blah...

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:11:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Still running TNE

HDHale@aol.com wrote:

>   You should include the Solomani Rim sector data which is available in
>Traveller Chronicle #10 (or available minus maps and other stuff from me 
>if you ask nice).  As Traveller Chronicle is an officially licensed 
>Traveller product, its contents would be classified as canon, or at 
>least as canon as DPG stuff was/is.

Harold, do you have a problem with me including a short writeup on the 
Solomani Rim in Dave Golden's TNE section?  Maps and sub-sector data?

PS do you have any official symbols reguarding those two pocket empires 
of yours.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 09:50:17 -0700
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Chris Cox wrote:
> 
> Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson) wrote:
> 
> "3.     MILLENIUM FALCON
> 
>Actually, _Aslan and Solomani_ contained a Solomani ship that looked 
>very like the Falcon. I believe that the Falcon, using the _StarWars_
>measurements, translates to 300 Traveller tons."
> 
>300 dtons just didn't seem right to me.  The various deckplans of the
>Millennium Falcon I've seen make the ship a appear to be a fair amount
>smaller than either a Far of Free trader (both displacing 200 dtons).  
>So, I sat down with my old model of the Millennium Falcon  and after a 
>bit of measuring and calculating (using 1:76 as the scale of the model, 
>which gives the Falcon an overall length of 35 meters) I came up with a
>displacement of around 150 dtons.  Now I'll admit my calculations were a
>little sloppy and I was drinking a Guinness, but even then I don't think
>the ship can be larger than 200 dtons.  I anyone wants I can try and 
>post the measurements and calculations tomorrow.

Based off a set of deck plans I have, which were based off of the full 
scale mockup built for Empire Strikes Back, and visual clues from the 
movie's.  ie. The scene in Empire where Leia and Han are in the 
Electronic's room we can estimate that the doors to that room are 1m 
across.  And that the tubular corridor utalized in Star Wars was 2m 
across at it's widest point.  Also using a number of stills which were 
nicely included in the book and in other references I have here.  We can 
estimate that this deckplan was created on a 1:200 scale, that is 1 cm on 
the map equals 200cm or 2m in real life.  Thus, the length of the falcon 
works out on this map to be 32 cm or 64m long, tip of the forks to the 
back on the engines. and 22.5cm or 45m at it's widest point.

Now if we look at the deck plans and measurements presented in West End 
Games Star Wars source book we find that the Falcon is only 26.7 meters 
long.  That's their official measurement.

Thus, there is a huge discrepency in ship size here.  Do we trust what's 
been done off of original set plans contained within the Lucas Archives, 
a craft which is nearly 200 feet long, or do we trust WEG's plans and 
assume that the Falcon is only 80 feet long?  Again I'd return to the 
photo evidence.  Empire Strikes Back, Han and Leia run to the Falcon from 
the Snow Troopers.  We get a distant shot where we see the Falcon sitting 
there with it's door open, then we cut to Han and Leia and 3PO running up 
the walkway.  Carrie Fisher is very short, 5'2"-5'4" at the most.  
Harrison Ford is not terribly large either, 5'6"-5'8", I can say this 
because at 6'7" most people are short next to me.  8)

I'd go with the 200' concept rather than the 80' concept.  Having been on 
a number of boats in that size range I'll tell you 80' in modern 
standards doesn't make much of a cargo ship, plus there are large 
sections of the Falcon which we never see...

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:40:02 -0700
Subject: Re: A few Questions/Comments

On Sun, 13 Oct, Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net> said:

>I finally got around to reading the animal section of T4 p142, correction,
>add a vertical line through the minus sign and it is now correct Did anyone
>notice these things about animals:
>	pouncers, trappers and sirens attck only if _they_ are surprised
>(careful, Johnny. Make sure that Mountain Lion knows you are here or he
>will rip you 
>apart for scaring him. Animals in the T4 universe need some valium)

Living in mountain lion country, I can say that this is pretty much correct.
Most of the time when a human is attacked by a lion, it's because the human
startled the lion.  Make some allowances for carnivores in the appropriate
situation (i.e. a large pouncer lying in wait vs. a single human)

>	filters, sirens and trappers have a to flee number. Yet a lot of the >time
they have no 
>movement. (aah, it is too late, that trapper creature is leaning away from
>us, we'll never get it now)

This is why GMs have brains.  A seesile creature isn't going to do much, is
it? Ignore the to Flee roll, and decide wether the thing considers
adventurer a tasty meal or not.  Fleeing might be a simple as a sea anonome
closing up when threatened, or a armildillo's "going ball" to foil a threat.
Be creative!

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:35:33 +0000
Subject: Re: A few Questions/Comments

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> Living in mountain lion country, I can say that this is pretty much correct.
> Most of the time when a human is attacked by a lion, it's because the human
> startled the lion.  Make some allowances for carnivores in the appropriate
> situation (i.e. a large pouncer lying in wait vs. a single human)

I think you misunderstood my intention. I think the idea that a pouncer will only attack if 
_it_i is surprised is funny

> This is why GMs have brains.  A seesile creature isn't going to do much, is
> it? Ignore the to Flee roll, and decide wether the thing considers
> adventurer a tasty meal or not.  Fleeing might be a simple as a sea anonome
> closing up when threatened, or a armildillo's "going ball" to foil a threat.

This was noted because one of the generally non-motiles has "if possible" listed under its 
flee rating. Again, it was humourous

Lastly, I think it is important to get these things corrected. As I stated in my original 
dialogue, I can easily figure solutions to these. New players might not. The last thing I 
want IG to do is to scare off new players because of errors. Traveller Gurus, such as 
yourself, may have 10 solutions for each problem, but a new player will not. I have 
spoke to people who have just started gaming and they are quite frequently intimidated 
by massive amounts of rules. They do not need them to be confusing in actuality and not 
just in principle

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:37:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 2D Task System

Amused to Death suggested...

>My last comment is about the 11-66 task system.
>Maybe you could write out benchmarks, like 
>20 Formidable Success, Average Spectacular Success, Impossible Spectacular
>Failure
>(just arbitrary there)

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the chance of spectacular
failure should increase depending on the difficulty of the task, while the
chance of spectacular success should increase with easier tasks? 

Sure, why not? This would actually make more sense the T4 system, in which
spectacular success becomes *more likely* as you increase the task
difficulty. Spec Failure does too, but that's sensible. I don't see how
attempting the Impossible can *increase* your chance of an amazing success.
(Unless you subscribe to a Star Wars kind of "heroism bonus"...)

I think we can adapt some of the methods of the more popular percentile
systems. Terry Simpson, a friend of mine who once worked for the creators
of HarnQuest, was telling me about their system (I'm not familiar with it
myself); in HQ, the magnitude of your success is measured by how far below
the target number you roll. The magnitude of failure, obviously, depends on
how far above the target you roll. I like this.

So in the 2D Task System, we might decide that a Spectacular Success occurs
if you roll at least 40 below the target number. Spectacular Failure occurs
if you roll at least 40 above the target number. (Perhaps that should be 30
above?) Sound about right?

Of course, two sixes and two ones are always Spectacular Results, regardless.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:38:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: M-DGP.3 Task System

Amused to Death,

You posted a new task system based on DGP's (didn't know they had their
own). Not having seen DGP's, I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly.


If I'm not mistaken you're suggesting a system where a base target number
is modifed by -(stat/3) rounded down, and -skill level. Obviously you have
to roll higher than the result on 2D, and there's the first problem I see:
it's not entirely compatible with T4, where almost every skill test is a
roll *below* the target number. So none of the DMs in the book will make
sense without conversion, which could get confusing. You'd have to change
on the negatives to positives and vice versa. Not a huge problem, I
suppose...

>From your example, we can extrapolate these numbers...

For stat  7 (hence mod of -2):
Your Example...           My figures...
Skill:  1                 Skill: 4   7

        2     Very Easy        Auto Auto
        5     Easy             Auto Auto  
        8     Average            5+ Auto
       11   Difficult            8+   5+
       14   Formidable          11+   8+
       17   Staggering          14+  11+
       20   Impossible          17+  14+

Erm, according to this, even with a skill of 7 this character can never
succeed at an Impossible feat. Have I missed something?


Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:38:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: First Survey

Stu Dollar, he say...

>As for me, I'd rather see IG use their limited resources to develop a 
>few sectors in detail.  There are about a half dozen sector 
>generators floating around in various places on the net.  I can roll 
>my own for the others if I want...or write my own, but I can assure 
>you that the randomly generated Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim 
>would look a lot different than they would be if GDW hadn't done them 
>by hand to begin with...

Hear. hear. I agree with Stu on this.

Another point, perhaps not raised yet (regarding the blank UWP data in
First Survey): if the players are supposed to be exploring these regions of
space for the first time, then rather obviously they shouldn't have any
*prior knowledge* of what they're going to find. If you've been previously
running a Third Imperium or Regency or Rebellion campaign, then switch to
Milieu 0, the players are going to know in which direction to explore to
find, say, that nifty Ancient site with all the artifacts.... "Well, it's
there in the year 1100, so it must be there in the Holiday Year, right?"

Well, it will be. Unless you abandon the "canon" laid down by your previous
campaign.

This problem reminds me of all those brainless players I once knew, who
would buy every supplement and adventure that came on the market, even
though they had no intention of ever running them. Keeps the cash-boxes of
industry churning, I'm sure, but it means these idiots cannot now play
those scenarios.

Too much information is one of the things that killed FRPGs for me. If you
own the Monster Manual, every AD&D monster you meet is a known quantity.
You know its hit dice, its weaknesses, its special attacks... yawn yawn
yawn. Where's the mystery? the intrigue? the horror (...the horror)?  Only
the better refs know to mix things up and invent new stuff from whole
cloth, to keep the game fresh and surprising. (At which point the idiots of
course scream, "Hey, you can't DO that! What d'you mean the Droyne aren't
the Ancients???" [heh heh heh...])

Which is yet another reason why harping on "canonical" star positions and
UWPs is so incredibly dumb. 

YMMV (but if so, you might check your odometer cable), :)

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:29:10 -0400
Subject: Traveller at U-Con

        I am not sure that the Traveller game at U-Con is going to come off.
I have received no preregistration information, which I MUST have in order
to determine travel plans. I don't even know when I'm scheduled to run!
Could someone who HAS a prereg book please let me know when I'm scheduled to
run?
Could someone send me six copies of the prereg book (I've asked the people
at U-Con numerous times; no response.)? E-mail me and I'll tell you where to
send it. I'm sorry to waste TML bandwidth on this, but I really want to run this
Traveller game, and if I can't get preregistered, I'm not going to be able to.
                                        Allen

------------------------------

From: Shane.Dowling@deetya.gov.au
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:08:15 +1000
Subject: RE: Moving Planets

In playing a game on the weekend I noticed that one planet has a
location problem.  Ordun is in hex 0301 on the map and in the planet
listings is
located in 0702 which is occupied by ? (I can't remember because don't
have books with me).

I have not seen this problem listed elsewhere so sorry if I am repeating
the already stated.

Shane Dowling



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:49:11 +0000
Subject: Re: M-DGP.3 Task System

Glenn Grant wrote:

> You posted a new task system based on DGP's (didn't know they had their
> own). Not having seen DGP's, I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly.

the DGP system was developed in the Journal of the Traveller's Digest and eventually 
adopted for megatraveller

> If I'm not mistaken you're suggesting a system where a base target number
> is modifed by -(stat/3) rounded down, and -skill level. Obviously you have
> to roll higher than the result on 2D, and there's the first problem I see:
> it's not entirely compatible with T4, where almost every skill test is a
> roll *below* the target number. So none of the DMs in the book will make
> sense without conversion, which could get confusing. You'd have to change
> on the negatives to positives and vice versa. Not a huge problem, I suppose... 
> Erm, according to this, even with a skill of 7 this character can never
> succeed at an Impossible feat. Have I missed something?

Actually, you add DM's to the dice roll. Thus if you need a difficult roll your total of 2D 
+ DMs (situational, attribute and skill) has to equal or exceed
And yes, the skill of 7 would fail, unless he had a stat of at least 3 (total DM of +8)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:51:21 +0000
Subject: Re: 2D Task System

Glenn Grant wrote:
> Of course, two sixes and two ones are always Spectacular Results, regardless.

Sounds reasonable

> Thanks for the suggestion,

NAP (not a problem)

------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:46:05 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 still not in Germany (and other countries)

V.A.G. wrote:
> 
> Well what can i say....
> I keep reading you guys complaining about not yet receiving your
> hardbound. Well just wait a little longer... it'll be there
> eventually.
> Over here in Germany, we don't even have the softbound in the
> stores yet (Though i hope that will change with Essen, when
> ImpGames will be over here!!!)Yea. I'm waitin for that for quite a while. Here in Austria it's 
difficult to get ANY Traveller stuff (Red Zone).
I started to becomne interested in Traveller quite a while ago and was 
just recently able to start my first MEGATRAVELLER Adventure. T3 and T4 
are no discussion. I asked a friend, who went to London, to look for T4 
Books, but he didn't get any.

So?

Keep on waiting! And smile ;-)

CYA.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #551
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 14 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 552

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         2. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         3. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         4. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
         5. Re: Ship design question
         6. Re: Emcumbered with Problems
         7. Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!
         8. New Traveller Fanzine
         9. Re: Encumbered with Problems
        10. Re: USENET (for Joe Walsh)
        11. Geonee
        12. New T4 Character Sheet, GM's Screen, request for preview before submission
        13. [none]
        14. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 
        15. Humaniti
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #541
        17. 3,2,1...0
        18. Re: Humaniti
        19. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:48:52 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> I like this. No messy explanation required. However, it still fails to
> address the concept of a variable 1 week travel time, and it is terribly
> short on allowing for additional drama. (It's a week, that's it --
> nothing can be done about it, sit around watch the holovid for the
> duration of the jump, ho-hum)

Look at it this way. Since the start and end points are moving at
different speeds, and are at "heights" in both the stellar and galactic
gravitational fields, it's not *possible* for the duration to be fixed.

Why? Because, time flows at different rates at each end. So if it takes
a week according to clocks at one end, it won't according to clocks at
the other end. 

Thus the time *must* be variable. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:05:52 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> On 10/11/96 at 06:43 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>> It's acceptable if the ship hauls out of there at top speed. <g>
>
>>Just what sort of "top speed" do your ships *have*?
>
> The *pseudo*-acceleration ranges from 400 to 800g's, and they have a fixed
> top end of 2,000 to 6,000kps.  Like I said, not your standard tech maneuver
> drives.  <g> Before you knee-jerk a reaction to this, I've thought all this
> through, and all the parts hang together. Yes, I have thought it *all*
> through, including all the auxiliary issues!  I even have
> *pseudo*-scientific explanations to handwave at the players if they need
> them. <g>

There's *one* auxilary issue that's a pain with any velocity limited
drive. What's the velocity limited relative *to*? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:10:26 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> Moin Leonard Erickson,
>
>> Great. The Sun is size 432. That means you have to get out to 520 light
>> *hours* to make a safe jump. Or only 517 light hours to make a
>> "dangerous" one.
>
>         How said that (our) sun has a size of 432 ? 
>         In our system planetoids have a size from 0-2, planets a size
>         from 3-10, gas giants a size of 11-15 while stars have these
>         sizes.
>
>                 O       24
>                 B       23
>                 A       22
>                 F       21
>                 G       20
>                 K       19
>                 M       18
>                 R       17
>                 N       16
>
>         So a jump to Sol would exit 4000 light seconds, which is
>         fairly hot.

In Traveller "size" has a *specific* meaning with regards to celestial
bodies. It started out as *diameter* in *thousands of miles* (which is
how earth got to be size 8). They may have changed it to radius in
thousands of km later, but I'm not sure.

So you need to come up with a different term for your figures.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:13:53 PST
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In mail you write:

> Moin Amused to Death,
>
>> Jupiter is 11 times Earth's diameter, making it size 88
>
>         if you say size1 = 1000 miles diameter, so Jupiter would be
>         88 but in UWP's there is no posibility to write an 88, so
>         GG as home worlds are B-F

Nope. Not according to the rules.

>         we extended this for sun's so we get much smaler squars, and
>         only 4000 light seconds around sun for a save jump.

Makes things kinda arbitrary, and as you have no doubt noted by now, it
makes for massive misunderstandings when talking to people using the
standard terminology.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:17:48 PST
Subject: Re: Ship design question

In mail you write:

>         Leonard, Thanks for your 'cattle car' suggestion, that's what'll work
> in this instance. It was kind of a D'oh! moment for me...we get so caught up
> in High-Middle-Low passage as the ONLY way to travel, I forgot to think
> clearly about what is necessary here. Life support only has to be of the
> minimal variety for this sort of journey, so low passage was overkill. 
>
>         This does bring up the economic rock throwing type of question: what 
> other modes of interstellar travel exist?
>
>         High-Middle-Low passage is clearly based on the old steamship 
> First-Second-Steerage class of travel, probably for the similarity of the 
> travel mode..you get on for a week or three at a time.

Actuallly, high/middle/low passage, "slow" drug, and "fast" drug were
all *very* obviously swiped from E.C. Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series
of stories. 

>         But surely this isn't the only way things are handled in the
> Imperium, there have got to be "Carnival Cruise Lines" and "Greyhhound
> Busses" and "Trump Shuttle" service between Sylea and Ordun, for instance,
> just to demonstrate the range of services available (and the corresponding
> costs). For instance, a Greyhound type of travel service may be a large
> container ship with bunks, a community 'fresher, and bad cafeteria food (or
> a McDonalds franchise or two) to keep you fed for the week or two you're 
> travelling.  This is certainly less service than even middle passage,
> but not as risky as low passage. 

The thing is, the difference between middle passage and what you
describe above is essentially zero FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF THE SHIP
CAPTAIN. Other than volume occupied by the passengers, you don't save a
thing. You still have to have the *same* amount of air and water (and
recyling for same) per person. Ditto for waste management. And while
with Traveller tech the cost per mass isn't that bad, it's still a case
that like on an airline, the cost of hauling the food is almost as
important as the purchase price!

But it's the air, water, and recycling that are the big problem. Sure,
the cargo hold can be converted into a bunkroom letting you pack 50-100
people into a Free Trader. But the life support system can't handle it.
Check some of Heinlein or Clarke's older stuff for the per person air &
water requirements. As I vaguely recall you need at least a couple of
liters of water a day for drinking alone. Multiply that by 100 and a
week. Then add in water for washing, etc. 

Air and food just make things worse.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:39:34 +0100
Subject: Re: Emcumbered with Problems

>Note that these movement rates are for entire time periods of overland
>travel.  I was in the Army, and can tell you that even 20kg can drag you
>down after a time.  50kg is about 110lbs, I know nobody who would operate at
>effectivly over a four hour period carrying that kind of weight.  441lbs is
>a lot for even a STR 15 PC to carry for hours.. this is what Olympic-class
>weightlifters do in the clean and jerk, and they don't walk anywhere!
>
>The "in-backpack" should cut the effective weight by about a third, not
>half.  While having the load distributed on your shoulders and hips helps,
>you are still carrying it.  Since Load Bearing Equipment is designed to both
>distribute loads and provide easy access to the equpment, I'd make some
>exception for *legitimate* calls..

Sorry, copied the table with the wrong log-scale
Here's the new one.
STR      Unenc.      Unc.      H Enc.
1-2       2 kg       5 kg      7 kg
3-5       3 kg       7 kg      15 kg
6-8       5 kg       10 kg     20 kg
9-11      7 kg       15 kg     30 kg
12-14     10 kg      20 kg     50 kg
15+       15 kg      30 kg     70 kg
Stuff carried in backpack count as half.
Armor worn count as half.
My definition of 'in backpack' is 'not easily reached' so the players don't
start to construct ingenious backholsters and the like.
Unencumbered characters can sprint (DEX 14+ guys make 100m in 10s)
Encumbered characters can trot
Heavily encumbered characters can walk

The reason for x1/2 for backpack load is simplicity, it is easier to calculate.


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:38:04 +1000
Subject: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!

> And my arguement does still hold.  Bigger missiles will be easier to
> hit than small ones under the following assumptions:
> 
> 1.  Sensor countermeasures possible on a missile don't increase with
> missile size faster than detecting them (due to their size)
> increases (I don't claim that BL models this perfectly, it might
> well need a tweak).
> 
> 2.  Bigger targets are easier to hit (I always seem to hit the
> arroyo wall behind the cans I shoot at, even if I miss the can :-)

OK, how about this. With the current "technology" available in Traveller,
a 100 ton Missile Bay contains 100 missiles ... if you assume CT 0.1 ton
missiles, thats 90% "waste" space (yes, I know it's reloading mechanism,
but we're also talking 30 minute turns here for a 100 kilo missile!); if
you assume 0.5 ton missiles, its better ... only 50% waste space.

Now, why not have VLS Box launchers ... *no* reloading mechanism.
Currently the naval versions can get close to 50% (the extra space is
because rocket exhaust has to be vented), however, in space versions, this
is not required ... a squib charge can be used to launch them from the box
and then the main motor (thruster plate or heplar, whatever) can kick in
at a suitable distance so the hull paint doesn't get too badly scorched.
Assume that it is more like a airborne rocket pod, and gets (say) 75%
usable space, or 750 0.1 CTrav missiles or 150 0.5 ton missiles.

Assume the 0.1 ton  missiles for a moment ... take a modest sized vessel,
a Destroyer (3000 tons in Supplement #9) or a Fleet Escort (5000 tons).
Assume half of the possible number of VLS launchers are installed ... 15
for the Destroyer or 25 for the Escort. That means a standard Desron (8
"DDGs") will have a one shot salvo of *90000* missiles (18000 if you
assume 0.5 ton types). An Esron (8 Escorts) would have a one shot salvo of
150000 missiles (30000 0.5 ton types). I do not care what sort of fire
control you have on your PD systems, this sort of initial salvo is
effectively unstoppable if it is targetted effectively (i.e. against a
relatively small number of ships, based on their fire control capacities)
... it simply overwhelms the PD Fire control no matter how good it is.

It gives light craft something that will make them useful in "line of
battle" against the larger vessels that would simply brush them aside
under normal circumstances. However, I would *not* see this as
*necessarily* the way to go for larger vessels ... you need *some*
capacity for closer ("gun") combat and for survivability that lighter
craft simply cannot achieve. I do not see missiles as a guaranteed winner,
but as a method of evening the odds ... one of tradeoffs. Sure, you
*could* have a BB (500 kilotons) with a one shot salvo of almost 2
*million* missiles, but only by foregoing conventional weapons ... and
once the VLS systems are expended, they can only be reloaded by a fleet
tender, so its a poor choice if sustained combat is expected. This is why
I see it as something that light ships would use.

> You're coming at this the wrong way.  In traveller, one missile
> *does not* kill a battleship.  We are tasked with making rules that,
> allowing for the existance of bigger, nastier missiles, still let
> the BB win out in the end.  If we right up rules that do otherwise,
> we have a cool game, but it isn't traveller.

Hmm, no, but 90000 might well do so ... and a Desron that can take out a
BB is a pretty good investment (a DN in Supplement 9 is worth around 180
DDs).

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:54:59 +1000
Subject: New Traveller Fanzine

I have recently put the finishing touches to a new Traveller Fanzine,
"Dark Star" - the first issue contains articles on -

* Point Based Character Creation (complete rewrite of the T4 chapter in
question)
* Revised and Expanded Skills (deals with some excluded skills and
problems with existing system)
* Trader's Corner (new equipment)
* Equipment Incompatibility (or, why should Sylean starships be able to
get repairs in non-Sylean space after a 1000 year "Long Night"?)
* Vilani Noble Ranks (as previously mentioned)

30 x A4 pages, photocopied. Cost - well, *nothing* for the magazine
itself, but I *will* have to charge for mail and handling - US$3 or UKstg2
for airmail to those countries (for other countries, I don't know offhand,
email me and I'll check!).

There are a *limited* number of copies available (I've run off 25, ten are
already gone - so notionally I have 15 more; however, I can probably run
off some more as I can get some *really* cheap photocopies ... but at I'm
not a millionaire!) - so please email me and let me know if you're
interested. If I receive hundreds of replies, sorry, I won't reply
individually - I'll let people know through the list if they weren't the
lucky ones (of course, probably I won't get all that many replies, I spose
:-}.

Hopefully it will prove somewhat popular - tho I don't really intend to
let it rule my life! I have enough article ideas already for the first two
or three issues, but they'll probably appear quarterly or so, and there is
no set publishing schedule at the moment (tho I hope to have the second
issue done for Xmas ... tentatively including articles on Vilani Military
Ranks, Starship Cabin Interiors, Alternatives to High & Middle Passage, a
Modular Scout ship.

*PLEASE* make sure that any replies *DO NOT* waste bandwidth and go to the
TML ... email me directly. The email address below is the official one
issued by my ISP, but does not seem to always work ... if it doesn't, try
- -

aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au
                              ^^^^

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:32:38 +0100
Subject: Re: Encumbered with Problems

     I remember a discussion about encumbrance on either TML or the RQ 
     mailing list in March, and I wrote down the following note from 
     someone's message who seemed to know what they were talking about:
     
        Enc 30% fighting
            45% travelling
     
     I wish I'd printed off the whole message, now, 'cause I can't exactly 
     remember what it was supposed to mean :-(, butI think these were the 
     typical percentages of body weight carried by US soldiers.  I presume 
     these kind of loads would give penalties to tasks.
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     (until 18/10/96)

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:42:39 +0100
Subject: Re: USENET (for Joe Walsh)

     
     David Joseph Smart wrote:
     
     [snip]
     > and given the somewhat recent flamewar that went on there, it seems 
     > to be getting more and more attention from non-TML subscribers who 
     > play Traveller (or want to). I've noticed a couple of threads 
     > regarding questions on the T4 rules which are, IMO, as thought out 
     > and thought provoking as the ones in TML.
     
     Ahh, David, I see you've been reading my rgfm posts then ;-).
     
     For the brief period that I had access to the rec.* newsgroups, I 
     tried to answer T4 system questions, and contribute towards 
     *constructive* threads (those of you on rgfm will know what I mean).
     
     Joe posting his IG FAQ to rgfm is an excellent idea.  It shows that IG 
     are serious about keeping their customers informed, and provides good 
     PR.
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     (until 18/10/96)

------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:50:10 GMT
Subject: Geonee

        I am planning a sourcebook/campaign/something on the Geonee minor
human race native to Shiwonee/Massilia, so I am very interested to know what
has been said on them. So far, these are the sources of what I know:

        1) They were briefly cited in DGP Vilani & Vargr as the first human
spacefaring race which Vilani met (with borrowed technology, of course).
        2) They were depicted in an illustration of DGP Solomani & Aslan,
with no mention (short and tall).
        3) In Hard Times, there was a "Geoneecide" against them made by
Marquis Tanzer, a noble akin to Margaret. The TNS news were incorporated to
Survival Margin. Thay briefly stated that there was a Geonee region of ten
worlds centered an the Shiwonee subsector. I was stated by Tanzer that the
fact of the Geonee being short and tall made them "easier to kill" when harmed.

        Are there any canon/noncanon materials on them? Is IG (or DGP)
planning something? Was GDW planning something? Thanks to anybody who can help.

- ------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
MT Ref in Spain
- ------------------

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico
Universidad de Alicante
03071-Alicante (Spain)
                                                   
Tlf: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
     (34) 6 5903614


------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 08:16 PDT
Subject: New T4 Character Sheet, GM's Screen, request for preview before submission

Hi folks,

I wanted to turn in for submission to IG a tentative GM's screen, and new
character
sheet that I created.  I have spent over a dozen hours working on these and
beleive that they would be well received.

I would like to have it sanity checked by any members of this list who can
read Excel 7.0
spreadsheets.

If necessary, perhaps someone out there can convert it to pdf output for
ease of preview first.

Any volunteers?  If so, please email me directly at

jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com 

Joel Lovell
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 16:44:58 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED : traveller@mpgn.com

Rodge@cyberspace.com asked:


>Wish us luck!

Best of luck.  All the best for your projects.


>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
>absolute favorites?

It would have to be World Builder's Handbook but like many on
this list, the Alien books were close behind and I treasure
all of them enormously.

>What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
>other game supplements?

Detail, 'seriousness', clarity, creativeness and a wonderful
adjunct to the Traveller universe.  If nothing else they
inspired me to *think*.

Timothy Collinson




------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:48:14 -0400
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 

David Joseph Smart writes:

 "> might have. <snip> I helped some with the mechanics, but more with the
  > skill set and background.  We call it FuRPiG.

 "Now you've got my curiosity up. I'd be interested in taking a look at
  this, if possible?"

The mechanics or the background?  In either case, I don't own any 
rendition of them but hardcopy.  I can give my own descriptions right 
here, either to you or to the list at large.  It's all role-playing, 
but it isn't immediately connected with Traveller.

Earl Wajenberg



------------------------------

From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@IO.COM>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:56:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Humaniti

Where can I find info on the appearances of the various races of
Humaniti?  I understand that the Solomani are the most varied and
that the other groups are more homogeneous.  So what do Vilani,
Zhodani, etc... look like, typically?

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 18:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #541

In-Reply-To: <9610120616.AA23126@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Subject: DGP Announcement

P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
absolute favorites?
 
What  in particular  did you  like about  DGP's works compared to
other game supplements?                                        RS >>

Hmm...World Builders Handbook and the alien modules. All the DGP stuff 
was pretty good (and fairly typo-free, IIRC). The artwork was good, 
presentation was excellent, and the info was often more detailed than 
the GDW stuff.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:02:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 3,2,1...0

Hi.

Marz@hotstar.net wrote:

>From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
>Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:59:42 +0000
>Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline

>That's one angle I never thought of. I have also always wondered whether
>the Vilani (their world overrun with Ancients  warmachines) actually
>discovered jump drive or not. Did they discover an already built  one
>and copy it (a la Geonee). Same goes for the Zhodani. There were Droyne
>and  chirpers on their world. Maybe they were taught. Geez, that leaves
>only Solomani as a  major human race

And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...

- -Rob



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:00:39 +0000
Subject: Re: Humaniti

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> Where can I find info on the appearances of the various races of
> Humaniti?  I understand that the Solomani are the most varied and
> that the other groups are more homogeneous.  So what do Vilani,
> Zhodani, etc... look like, typically?

In the aliens books (1-8 by GDW and 1-2 (new and better) by DGP
Vilani, IMO, would look sort of like a polynesian swede (?) in terms of features and 
appearance, ie fine featured but dark skinned (Vilani & Vargr mentions that they have 
darker skin to deal with Vland's brighter star and the pictures give them fairly sharp 
features)
Zhodani look sort of arabic, with a touch of european
the minor race Suerrat look like neanderthals, the Geonee like slavic dwarves
the jonkereen (desert dwelling minor human race) look like arabs with samurai haircuts
That is all I could find quickly

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:07:20 -0600
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

At 11:04 pm 10/7/96 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> I guess I, as well, am guilty of generalizing based on labels. In my
>> experience (which is by no means, of course, exhaustive),
>> "fundamentalists" always meant those Christians who, while being true
>> believers, add a lot of extra rules, like "playing cards is evil," "movies 
>> are
>> evil," etc. Please forgive me for incorrectly labeling you that way.
>
>There are good technical reasons for claiming that any Church that has
>a doctrine inconsistent with the statement of faith embodied in the
>Nicean Creed (aka Apostle's Creed) is actually *not* a Christian
>church. Something I've been mean-spirited enough to use on folks in

        Minor correction: Nicean Creed is NOT "also known as" Apostle's
Creed. The apostolic creed dates back to the early church (1st century, or
so), and begins "I Believe..." It's also much shorter.

        The Nicean Creed is slightly more recent, when some emperor or such
got tired of all the inconsistencies between various various "bishops,"
"apostles," etc., and forced them to sit down in a city called Nicea and
explain what exactly being a Christian meant. That's why it starts out "We
Believe ..."

PS: Am I the only one who's getting screwed up mail lately from TML and
GDW-Beta? Stuff's coming in out of order, two or three copies of messages,
etc. It's really confusing reading a half-dozen replies to a message you
haven't seen yet (and won't, for another day!).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #552
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 14 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 553

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Auction Update
         2. Re: social-acceptance
         3. Re: M. Falcon
         4. Re: IISS Uniforms
         5. World Pop
         6. Re: Humaniti
         7. Re: DGP Announcement
         8. Revised WorldGen Article, take II
         9. Re: [T96#547] WorldGen article
        10. Re: 3,2,1...0
        11. Memories!
        12. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply
        13. Re: 3,2,1...0
        14. Re: 3,2,1...0
        15. Re: World Pop
        16. Re: 2D Task System
        17. Reply to comments on Spires
        18. RE: 3,2,1...0
        19. Re: News From Imperium Games
        20. Re: social-acceptance
        21. Jumps and time

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:07:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Auction Update

>18.Flaming EyeCampaignSourcebook  $23.00    scrawlsfts@aol.com				

        Increase my bid to $25, please
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:07:24 -0600
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

At 02:21 pm 10/10/96 -0700, you wrote:
>If you know that "deck plans" never include a hot tub . . . .

        Speak for yerself ... what's a "Captain/Owner's Suite" without the
hot tub?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:32:28 -0400
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Derek Stanley wrote a bunch of stuff regarding the Millennium Falcon size
where he concludes by saying: 

"I'd go with the 200' concept rather than the 80' concept.  Having been on 
a number of boats in that size range I'll tell you 80' in modern 
standards doesn't make much of a cargo ship, plus there are large 
sections of the Falcon which we never see..."

200'!, this would make the Falcon come out to around 900 dtons.  After a
bit of digging around I see that "The Art of the Empire Strike Back" has
the sound stage layout for the main hanger on Hoth.  Using the measurements
shown on this layout I calculate the length of the full size Falcon mockup
was just under 27 meters, that same size used by WEG.  Unfortunately, when
I calculated the displacement of the Millennium Falcon to be around 150 to
200 dtons I assumed that my model was about 1/76 scale (making the Falcon
35 meters long).  However, since the ship is only 27 meter long the ship's
displacement should be around 70 to 100 dtons.  This really doesn't make
for much of a cargo ship, but it does fit on a sound stage. (BTW, at 27
meters long make the model of the Falcon about 1/60 scale, a great fit for
those Grenadier Star Wars minis)

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller pages
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav)

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:27:36 -0700
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Marc spoke thus:
> 
> >As for uniform colors, I thought they changes the color every several
> >decades.
> 
> I always had a problem with the semi-loons that join the Scout Service
> wearing uniforms.  Most Scout Base commanders are happy when everyone wears
> clothing, never mind what it looks like...

"Scout Uniform" is an oxymoron. Most Scouts in the field have as much use for a uniform 
as they do the HQ weenies who send them out to survey new worlds -- and, all too often, 
die in the attempt.

My Scout characters have what I call the "Scout Attitude." They say: stick the military 
filagee and gold braid where starlight never penetrates! Scouts are spacers too low-born 
and/or authority-adverse to make it in the Navy and too lacking in guile to make it as 
merchies. The IISS is the working stiff's ticket into space; what a Scout may lack in 
raw brainpower and social connections, he makes up for in sheer guts and raw 
practicality (which is why Scouts get J-o-T skill: the skill is a measure of how 
'practical' a character is). The reliance on grit over firepower, tactical/technical 
wizardry, guile and social connections makes for what a 20th-C Terran would call "An 
Attitude." Survival by one's sheer grit in a hostile universe breeds the attitude that 
Scouts can overcome anything a hostile universe can throw at them.

This leads to stereotypes. Uniformed types see the Scout's rejection of the military 
mentality as evidence of a kind of wild indiscipline. Those who populate the upper 
(social and military ranks) ranks of the Armed Forces view this as evidence of social 
inferiority. Scouts view the military types insistience on uniforms, saluting, ranks and 
so forth as a worldview that substitutes regimentation for practicality. 

> 
> Reminds me of the time that we were ordered to appear before the Archduke of
> Sol, in "full dress uniform".  Alright for the Navy and Marine types, I
> showed up in my nightmare vision of Imperial chic..

My generic Scout character's  -- he's generic so I can play him at cons -- idea of "full 
dress" uniform is a _clean_ and _pressed_ jumpsuit.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:15:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: World Pop

Hi.

Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.

I don't buy this assertion. If it were true, then it should be reflected
in real life here on earth. In other words, the island of Oahu should
have a higher population than the island of Manhattan (It doesn't). And
New Zealand should have a higher pop than Great Britain. And Wyoming
should have a higher pop than New Jersey. And so on ad nauseam.

In fact, pleasure is rarely the first factor in determining where people
live. The primary factors are usually economic and social.

1) Where are the jobs and how much do they pay? The largest number of
high-paying jobs can be found on industrial worlds. And the quality of the
industry is rarely going to be proportional to the pleasantness of the
environment.

2) What is the cost of living and how much is the real estate? Pleasant
worlds are going to cost more to live on (typically) because the land is
in demand  by people who can afford it. In a technologically advanced
civilization, hostile environs are not going to drive up the cost of
living as much as they do today. So places like Pittsburgh are going to
be cheaper to live in than places like Aspen or Key West.

3) Who lives there already and do they like me? Nice places almost
always have laws that restrict the number and kind of people who can
move there. New Zealand, Canada, and the US are all famous (imfamous?) 
for being difficult to move to.

4) What's happening there? People usually want to move to places where
there's a lot going on. These are more likely to be places that already
have a lot of people living there for the reasons listed above. There
are more people moving to Chicago, Illinois than to St. Clairsville,
Ohio, despite the fact that St. Clairsville has a lower cost of living and
a much nicer climate. Chicago is an exciting place; St. Clairsville is out
in Nowheresville.

So if you find that Traveller's population distributions don't make much
sense to you, I'd say that you might be working from faulty assumptions.

Just my Cr 0.02.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Abi and Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Humaniti

At 10:56 AM 10/14/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Where can I find info on the appearances of the various races of
>Humaniti?  I understand that the Solomani are the most varied and
>that the other groups are more homogeneous.  So what do Vilani,
>Zhodani, etc... look like, typically?
>
>Bolie IV
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Bolie Williams IV
>bolie@io.com
>http://www.io.com/~bolie/
>
>
>
Zhodani look Arabic,complete with Turbans, I believe Vilani look Mediterranean.

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:41:13 -0600
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

At 08:47 pm 10/11/96 -0700, rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger) wrote:
> 
>Dear Traveller Afficionados,

>We are seeking  a renewal of DGP's Traveller  license, so that we
>can rerelease  our extensive Traveller archives  in various forms
>as  well as  produce brand  new Traveller  works for  your gaming
>pleasure. We love  sci-fi, and we look forward  to being involved
>in Traveller development once again  and working with Marc Miller
>and Imperium Games.
> 
>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
>absolute favorites?

        That would have to be "Starship Operator's Manual" and the "World
Builder's Handbook"
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 15:33:00 -0500
Subject: Revised WorldGen Article, take II

  Sorry about the barfed version of the article; I forgot
  (again) to tell the damned PCBoard software that this _wasn't_
  going to another PCBoard, and that it was OK to leave it in
  one humongous chunk.  I posted another one a day later that
  shouldn't have gotten barfed.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 15:33:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#547] WorldGen article

"John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> writes...

T::>Many of your ideas here are good, but the TL comments all postulate that
 ::>the inhabitants of the various world are human.

 This is true, and I believe was mentioned in the rules.
 Non-humans can be dealt with by referee fiat, as usual.

 ::>                                                 A world with
 ::>Hydrographics A could easily be TL 1 if the main inhabitants were sentient
 ::>dolphins (or the local equivilant).

 Certainly - consider the Schalli from T:TNE.  But (see note
 below) races that are adapted for such non-standard conditions
 are the exception rather than the rule.  As IG/FFE release
 information on other races, WorldGen rule mods can be written
 for them as well.  As of right now, the only race we have the
 info for is basic humans (i.e., not geneered, as the
 Jonkereen).

 ::>                                     Similarly, a sentient species which
 ::>evolved in an ammonia atmosphere would have no trouble living on such a
 ::>planet and could be any tech level desired.

 Well, yes and no.  Different planetary chemistries will result
 in different limitations to technological development.  There
 are two very good books that address these topics, both under
 the Writer's Digest Books imprint - look for _Aliens_and_Alien_
 _Societies_, ISBN 0-89878-706-3, and _World_Building_, ISBN
 0-89879-707-1.  They are both well-written, and quite
 interesting.

 ::>planet and could be any tech level desired.  The Imperium only makes sense
 ::>to me if there are lots of aliens (I believe the published figure is 400+
 ::>separate species in the Imperium).

 400 non-humans races out of 11,000 planets in 1100?  Sort of
 suggests that humans are the most common encounter.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Computers may replace men,but they'll never replace women


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:40:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In a message dated 96-10-14 14:03:05 EDT, you write:

<< And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
 explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
 ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...
 
 -Rob >>

If we continue along that line of thought, then Grandfather's manipulations
over the last 300,000 years assume even greater meaning.

Marc


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Oct 96 15:37:53 EDT
Subject: Memories!

>> effect of stats myself, and I now see that all the work has been done by
someone else :-).

Proot! Liam - -- Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk <<

Ah-ha! A fellow person who remembers White Dwarf back when it was worth
something! Feelie-Wheelie <Kazooom!>



[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446             100326.446@compuserve.com | | Love is the answer, but
while you are waiting for the        | | answer, sex raises some pretty good
questions. (Woody        | | Allen)
| [------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:53:41 +0000
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

David J. Golden wrote:
> PS: Am I the only one who's getting screwed up mail lately from TML and
> GDW-Beta? Stuff's coming in out of order, two or three copies of messages,
> etc. It's really confusing reading a half-dozen replies to a message you
> haven't seen yet (and won't, for another day!).

I thought it was my mail reader, doing something silly
I know the feeling, "in reference to your previous post", I just assumed that it was a 
private discussion that accidentally got sent to the wrong address

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:00:20 +0000
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Robert Flammang wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Marz@hotstar.net wrote:
> 
> >From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
> >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:59:42 +0000
> >Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline
> 
> >That's one angle I never thought of. I have also always wondered whether
> >the Vilani (their world overrun with Ancients  warmachines) actually
> >discovered jump drive or not. Did they discover an already built  one
> >and copy it (a la Geonee). Same goes for the Zhodani. There were Droyne
> >and  chirpers on their world. Maybe they were taught. Geez, that leaves
> >only Solomani as a  major human race
> 
> And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
> explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
> ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...

I checked that and...you are right

Great, the entire human race is minor
Just anote about the vargr, Grandfather left an android to watch over them. What if this 
pseudo-bio actually was the one that gave the vargr the secret to the stars (otherwise the 
doggies would probably have driven themselves to extinction. 
(in short, if I am no longer a member of a major race, no one else is either)
While I am at it. The Vilani experimented with an inferior jump drive before developing 
the standard version. Maybe _that _was the one they discovered. It did not work very 
well, so they gave up and used the available ones they had (ancients devices)
You will note the Hivers also developed this drive first before developing the standard
So we are down to K'kree and Droyne
The droyne did develop it (well, one of them did) (ie the ancient greeks were not 
influenced by the ancient greeks to quote the Principia Discordia)
So when it comes down to it, the only major races are the little lizards and the horseys
What a blow for humanoid pride

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:33:52 +0000
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

> << And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
>  explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
>  ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...
> 
> If we continue along that line of thought, then Grandfather's manipulations
> over the last 300,000 years assume even greater meaning.
> 
> Marc

Kind of blows the whole major race thing straight to hell, don't it?
Alien Module Six, Solomani
p 4. 
The first use of jump drive was entirely within the Solar System. It enabled fast 
expeditions to the outer worlds and made possible several colonies in the outer worlds. 
UNSCA did not realize that the drives had a great enough range to reach the stars.

Sounds like people who are experimenting with something they do not really understand. 
With even modern physics you could probably figure out what the thing will do. This 
sounds very suspicious.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:38:15 +0000
Subject: Re: World Pop

Robert Flammang wrote:
> So if you find that Traveller's population distributions don't make much
> sense to you, I'd say that you might be working from faulty assumptions.

I agree 100%
Though I am not sure why I am in Toronto (I wonder if the people of the Traveller 
universe suffer from this as well?)

People follow jobs. The best examples of all time are the agricultural, industrial and 
information revolutions. They are and were all great upheavals, and with the new 
dislocation people went to where they could make a living.

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:35:53 GMT
Subject: Re: 2D Task System

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:37:58 -0400 (EDT), Glenn Grant wrote:

> I think we can adapt some of the methods of the more popular percentile
> systems. Terry Simpson, a friend of mine who once worked for the =
creators
> of HarnQuest, was telling me about their system (I'm not familiar with =
it
> myself); in HQ, the magnitude of your success is measured by how far =
below
> the target number you roll. The magnitude of failure, obviously, =
depends on
> how far above the target you roll. I like this.
>=20
> So in the 2D Task System, we might decide that a Spectacular Success =
occurs
> if you roll at least 40 below the target number. Spectacular Failure =
occurs
> if you roll at least 40 above the target number. (Perhaps that should =
be 30
> above?) Sound about right?

Harn (by Columbia Games) uses a d100 system which treats each
percentile die roll that ends with either a "0" or a "5" as being a
*critical* result.  For example:

If the target number is 42 (percent), all results <=3D42 are a success
while all results >42 are a failure.  Furthermore, a result of 05, 10,
15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 would be a *critical* success while a
result of 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, and 00 would be
a *critical* failure.

It might be possible, for your 2d Task System, to state that any d66
result ending in a "1" (ie: 11, 21, 31, 41, 51, and 61) would be a
*critical* or *outstanding* result, using the same technique.

It would be easy enough to use coloured paint or a crayon to fill in
the single dot for the "1" result on the second die, making this
distinction very easy to make (much easier than trying to calculate
how much a die roll exceeds a particular target number since it would
be immediately apparent when the coloured "1" appears).

I haven't even received my hardback of T4 yet but from what others
have said about the task system, I think I like your d66 system better
:-)




James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 17:14:01 -0400
Subject: Reply to comments on Spires

Derek Stanley wrote in:
>Obsidian is only formed under very specific conditions.  Exteremly thin 
>runny lave has to solidify at an extremely fast rate.  There are huge 
>deposits of it in northern BC.  Mount Edzidza (sp?).  

I'll make it more common on Spires than on Earth, but located only in certain areas.

>I have to ask though,  YUKO?????  Why Yuko?  Sounds terribly Japanese.

I don't really know where I came up with the name, I didn't mean for it
to sound Japanesse, just different. 

> Religion and 
>Higher Learning occurred our of a number of Spiritual centers which were 
>centerally located between a number of outlaying villages.  These 
>villages were inturn responsible for the maintenance of the Spiritual 
>Center and for providing a certain amount of food for the teachers.  In 
>return the knowledge was there for all to access with no restrictions

I think I'll incorporate this idea.

>In my Spires, my character D'zvyadya A'yanshi Kayla, there's a whole 
>story behind that name.  Was educated at the University of Gwynmark, you 
>can see my Celtic bent there.  Universities would be hugely popular on 
>Spires and entrance, though open to all, would be granted with a 
>preference to the most tallented and then to whom ever wanted.

I'd love to hear the story behind the name.

Lewis Roberts
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why Don't Cannibals Eat Clowns?  lewis@chara.gsu.edu
A:They taste funny!                http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:25:32 -0700
Subject: RE: 3,2,1...0

Amused to Death posted:
>Kind of blows the whole major race thing straight to hell, don't it?
>Alien Module Six, Solomani
>p 4. 
>The first use of jump drive was entirely within the Solar System. It enabled
>fast 
>expeditions to the outer worlds and made possible several colonies in the
>outer worlds. 
>UNSCA did not realize that the drives had a great enough range to reach the
>stars.
>
>Sounds like people who are experimenting with something they do not really
>understand. 
>With even modern physics you could probably figure out what the thing will
>do. This 
>sounds very suspicious.

Not necessarily.  When physicists first uncovered the principle of the
LASER, I'm sure they have no concept of it's use in everyday items, like
CD-ROMs, range finders, gyroscopes, anti-missile defenses, etc.  
The problem may have been in the initial design--perhaps early Terran
Jumpdrives used a very inefficient design or weren't able to deliver
enough power to the jump-grid to make a very long jump (maybe they
didn't have Zuchai crystals and were forced to use Folger's <gdr>)

"Captain's Log, UNSCA Prometheus.  Our first attempt to use the Jump
Drive developed on Mars failed to day, but the coffee was extremely
good...."


------------------------------

From: pould@netcom.ca (Daniel Poulin)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:47:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

You wrote: 
>
>On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Dan wrote:
>
>> When are we going to have the hardcover? (more precisely, when am I 
going
>> to have mine).  Still waiting.  I never got a reply to my first two 
e-mails
>> to you, I don't expect one but I am still an optimist.  I am happy 
to see
>
>Huh?  I don't recall receiving two emails from you...not even one, 
until 
>now (though your message, above, was posted to the TML).  I must be 
>confused. 
>
>Perhaps you sent mail to imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com?
>

Sorry for the mistake. With the way you were talking, I thought you 
were Imperium games.  I did leave them two messages at the address
you indicate earlier.  I haven't heard from them and I find this very 
frustrating.  Sorry again.

Maybe you should clarify (for me and the other nincompoops (is that the 
word?) who don't know who you are?  

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:13:36 -0700
Subject: Re: social-acceptance

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 02:21 pm 10/10/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >If you know that "deck plans" never include a hot tub . . . .
> 
>         Speak for yerself ... what's a "Captain/Owner's Suite" without the
> hot tub?

Hmmm. . . . I forgot about the poor Schalli, too! <evil grin as I remember _The Death of 
Wisdom_ . . .>

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: nrunner@ix.netcom.com (Archie T.)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:04:48 -0700
Subject: Jumps and time

earth where time was slowwed because earth had a faster rotation rate 
around its axis. A high gravity field also slows down time.....maybe 
jump drives are affected because of this.(??) The top of mt. everest
 looses 1/3 of a sec every year....you do the math. (..or I will!:)
the formula for relative speed is:

    time speed slowdown =1/(square root(1-(v^2)/(c^2)))
C is 3*10^8, V is your objects speed, in meters/sec

    Mind you, the earth, and other objects orbit around the sun, which 
orbits in the galaxy (r=100000 LY), which has a speed of its own. Sum 
total for earth is ~300km/sec, if memory serves. This speed is added, 
or subtracted, depending on which half the suns orbit around the galaxy
 the sun is (either with or against the galaxies direction of 
movement.)

    I also think it worth nothing that around some pulsars, you can 
have a size 24 , yep 24, size class terrestrial planet. The rules dont 
allow for it, but thats ok, cause they are SO rare....  

    I for one like to traveller have a hard foundation is 
science.....it just my thing :)
- -- 
_____________________________________________________________________
Copywight - 1994 Elmer Fudd ink.  All wights wesewved.                                            




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Monday, 14 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 554

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Jump and times addendum......
         2. IG FAQ, 10/14/96
         3. Coming soon!
         4. To: Joe Walsh
         5. Re: DGP Announcement
         6. Re: 3,2,1...0
         7. Update #5: Odds & Ends Auction.
         8. Re: 3,2,1...0
         9. Re: Geonee
        10. Re: Geonee
        11. Background music
        12. The only explanation! 
        13. PGMP and Fusion Plus (INCLUDES OFFICIAL QUESTION & COMMENT)
        14. Alexandra Aurion, Marquess Black Shroud

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nrunner@ix.netcom.com (Archie T.)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:10:26 -0700
Subject: Jump and times addendum......

mass, but not more than 6x, in any case. Note the gravity may not be 
3g, because of the planets radius.
- -- 
_____________________________________________________________________
Copywight - 1994 Elmer Fudd ink.  All wights wesewved.                                            

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:16:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

Imperium Games FAQ                                        October 14, 1996

Q.  Will the next printing of T4 have new artwork?

A.  The next printing of T4 will simply have errata in the back of it.  
The printing after that will be version 1.1, and will simply have the 
errors corrected (same artwork).


Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?

A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, though.


Q.  Is there any way around this?

A.  Yes.  Don't mention Traveller in your article, and don't pull 
material from any Traveller product.  Say it is an article for use with 
science fiction RPG's, and keep it generic.


Q.  What is the policy regarding copying previously published works by 
GDW or IG to the internet?

A.  You have to get written permission from Marc Miller in order to 
legally do so.  He holds all the copyrights on all such material.


Q.  When will [insert product here] be shipped?

A.  The correct schedule for products to be shipped (that is, when they
will begin to be shipped to dealers and those who ordered directly through
IG) is:

        Starships                       November 1
        JTAS                            November 1
        Citizens of the Imperium        November 15
        Aliens Archive                  November 15
        Central Supply Catalog          December 1
        Milieu 0                        December 15
        First Survey                    December 15


Q.  When is the web site going to be updated?  How about weekly updates?

A.  The folks at IG have been on extended vacation for the last couple of
weeks.  Starting next week, the web site will be updated _at least_ once
per week.


Q.  When is my T4 hardback going to arrive? 

A.  Foreign orders will take longer to arrive than orders shipped to 
the continental U.S.  In addition, some orders within the U.S. were
shipped Priority Mail, while others were shipped 4th Class.  The method
of shipping depended on the date the order was placed.  4th Class mail
takes quite a bit longer to arrive than Priority, so please be patient
and you should receive it shortly.


Q.  I really don't like [insert a rule from T4 here] . . .

A.  If you don't like something about any IG product, feel free to change
it!  The folks at IG realize they aren't gods, and are therefore unable
to create the perfect system for everyone.  Their philosophy is that they
are producing _guidelines_, not laws carved in stone.


Q.  My local game store doesn't carry Traveller products.  (Or, "There
aren't any Traveller players in my area.")

A.  Ask the owner of your friendly local game store if you can run a 
demo of the Traveller game.  If s/he will let you do so, some ideas 
for what to do include:
        1)  Run through some _extremely simple_ scenarios with 
            prospective customers.  These might be simply hitting
            a target - give them a character, a situation, a little
            build up, and a number to roll.  Act out the consequences.
        2)  Get a few members of your gaming group together, and play
            at the store, if they'll allow it and have an area where
            customers can stop by and watch you play.
        3)  Your own ideas

        The point is, demand drives supply.  If you would like to see a 
supply of Traveller products at your local game store, help to create the 
demand and let the game store owner know that demand exists.  If you can 
stir up enough demand among the gaming community in your area, the game 
store owner will almost certainly begin carrying lots of Traveller products.
        Plus, you you may end up making some new gaming friends! :)


Q.  Where do I send questions regarding IG and/or Traveller?

A.  It depends.  If it is a business-related question (such as license 
fees or distributor information), it should be addressed directly to 
Imperium Games (1-414-249-9430).  
    Other questions, such as those regarding what is meant by a given 
rule in an Imprium Games product, when a given supplement is due out, 
theory behind the technology used in the Traveller game (jump drives, 
sensors, starships, etc.), or other such questions, they should be 
addressed to either the TML (preferred) or to me personally 
(ransom@iconnect.net).
    But please be aware that any emailed question may be re-posted 
publicly, if I feel my reply should be made public to avoid duplication.  
I reserve the right to re-post any email sent to me regarding IG and/or 
Traveller.
    Please also be aware that messages posted to TML may not be answered 
unless it is made evident that an "official" answer is requested.
    Finally, at times it will be necessary for me to share questions with 
those who know more than I do about specific topics (i.e., a question about 
product release dates will be posed to someone at IG).  
    In other words, such communications are NOT considered private.

- -------------

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:18:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Coming soon!

Here's some stuff IG should be getting to me by the end of the week:

A)  A table of contents for Aliens Archive, and one for CSC.

B)  Prices for Diplo, Helmets, and Reflec coating.

Thought you'd like to know....


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:45:38 +0000
Subject: To: Joe Walsh

I have not received any comment about what I said vis a vis animal damage in my first 
post
So, I will repeat it

If you roll animal damage (ie pre-roll) then how do you work in armour (which subtracts 
dice not damage) and how would you deal with initial and subsequent wounds. If each 
die is separate, then how do you distribute an animal attack of 11 points. Or even if you 
kept the dice, how would you divvy up 2D x 3, as each die tripled?

As I stated before, I have been  a gamer for 14 years now and can figure out a house 
rule. But if you want Traveller to appeal to new gamers (I sure do) these things need to 
be addressed

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:36:43 -0700
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

At 01:41 PM 10/14/96 -0600, you wrote:

>>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
>>absolute favorites?
>
>        That would have to be "Starship Operator's Manual" and the "World
>Builder's Handbook"

Yes, the "Starship Operator's Manual," when are we going to see volume 2.
<grin>


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:49:24 +0000
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Jeff Cornish wrote:
> Not necessarily.  When physicists first uncovered the principle of the
> LASER, I'm sure they have no concept of it's use in everyday items, like
> CD-ROMs, range finders, gyroscopes, anti-missile defenses, etc.

But they still new what exactly it could do when they built one. 
The phrase used in the book was something to the effect of they did not know what 
range it had. This seems to indicate either sloppy science, or it was something they really 
did not understand

> The problem may have been in the initial design--perhaps early Terran
> Jumpdrives used a very inefficient design or weren't able to deliver
> enough power to the jump-grid to make a very long jump (maybe they
> didn't have Zuchai crystals and were forced to use Folger's <gdr>)

That is reasonable. BTW thank you for not even jokingly mentioning Dilithium

> "Captain's Log, UNSCA Prometheus.  Our first attempt to use the Jump
> Drive developed on Mars failed to day, but the coffee was extremely
> good...."

Makes sense, though. Lot of people need a coffee to get a jump in the morning

------------------------------

From: Sanders <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Update #5: Odds & Ends Auction.

Please remember that the auction ends on Wed. Oct. 16th.
Postage in the US is $3.00 for the first item, .50 cents for each 
additional item.

    
  Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
  - $12   scharlto@rtd.com
    
  Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
  - $16   scharlto@rtd.com
    
  Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
  - $20   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
    
  The Flaming Eye
  - $25   goldendj@usa.net
    
  Traveller Adventure
  - $10   tiger@datasync.com
    
  Alien Module #8: Darrians
  - $17   beck@mail.all-net.net
    
  Challenge Magazine #25
  - $6    beck@mail.all-net.net
     
  Traveller Chronicle Magazine #9
  - $6    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
    
  2300AD - S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans
  - $6    scharlto@rtd.com
    
  Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"
  - $7    scharlto@rtd.com
    
  Laserburn Sci. Fi. Combat Rules
  - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
    
  New Additions:
    
  White Dwarf Magazine #13 - "Suggested additions to Traveller, Part 1"
  - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
    
  White Dwarf Magazine #16 - "Suggested  additions to Traveller, Part 4"
  - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
   
  White Dwarf Magazine #17 - "Sable Rose Affair" (Trav. adv.)
  - $2    douglas@point.com
   
  White Dwarf Magazine #28 - "On Target" (Rules addition), "Sorry" (Trav. adv.)
  - $2    douglas@point.com
   
  Voyages SF Magazine #11 
  - $1    scharlto@rtd.com
    
  Voyages SF Magazine #13    - "Exercise" (Trav. fiction)
  - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com - "Katlin C. Buchannon" (Trav.starship/deckplans)                      
                             - "Sanity In Space" (Rules addition)
    
  Different Worlds Magazine #23 - "Terraforming, Part 2" (Rules addition)
  - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com  
  
  Gameplay Magazine #5
  (Good condition)
    
  Gameplay Magazine #7
  (Good condition)
    
  2300AD - Kafer Dawn
  GDW
    
  Tales of the Concordat #2: "Voyage of the Planetslayer"
  Jefferson Swycaffer (book)
  - $3    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
 
  Tales of the Concordat #3: "Revolt and Rebirth"
  Jefferson Swycaffer (book)
  - $3    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com 
    
  Planet in Peril
  O'Neill & Mohan (book)
    
  Sniper! - Special Forces Supplement
  SPI
      
 
 
 


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:45:31 -0700
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

At 04:00 PM 10/14/96 +0000, you wrote:

>> And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
>> explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
>> ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...
>
>I checked that and...you are right
>
>Great, the entire human race is minor

Hmm... Well, even if there were ancient sites in the solar system I still
believe that we developed the jump drive independently.  Perhaps, finding
those ancient sites led to the research making jump drives available but in
my game the Solomani are still a major race.10


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:07:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Geonee

The most detailed write up of the Geonee was in Digest Groups
Traveller's Digest # 11.

The Geonee are on average 1.5 m tall, and 65 kg.  Shiwonee is A-A86831-G
with 1.3 Gs and 1.5 atm presure.  In the article they are described as a
very sexist society, where women are regarded as valuable property and men
must attract a Chirper (non-casted, semi-sentient Droyne) as a pet before
they can marry. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:14:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Geonee

Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
>         I am planning a sourcebook/campaign/something on the Geonee minor
> human race native to Shiwonee/Massilia, so I am very interested to know what
> has been said on them.

An entire issue of *Travellers' Digest* (by DGP) was devoted to the
Shiwonee/Massilia area, with cultural and physical notes on the Geonee.  I
can't remember the issue number off-hand, but can check when I'm home with
my library.

Note, also, that the odd-looking "lanes" of mixed-bureaux space on the map
of the Ziru Sirka in DGP's V&V make sense if you interpret the "pocket" 
they join to in Massilia as the Geonee's already well-developed area, set
aside by the Ishimkarun as "common ground" to prevent them all fighting
each other for the trade opportunities.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:59:23 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Background music

I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was gr=
eat
for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
for.)
- --=20
Steinar Knutsen

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 15 Oct 96 06:16:46 +1000
Subject: The only explanation! 

     There can only be one reason why Homo Sapiens (instead of different 
     Homo species) is found on all those widely separated planets: 
     
     1. They must have been H.Sapiens when they arrived there. I cannot 
     accept 'parallel evolution' from common forebears into another species 
     in dozens of independent locations. 
     
     There are two ways this could have happened: 
     1. The Ancients took H. Sapiens from Terra, OR
     2. The Ancients took pre-Sapiens hominids from Terra, geneered from 
     them and planted the resulting H. Sapiens everywhere humans are now 
     found, *including* Terra - ie Homo Sapiens owes its very *existence* 
     to the Ancients, just like the Vargr. Once H.Sapiens were planted on 
     Terra, they overran the earlier hominid species. 
     
     This could explain the problems our archaeologists have had with the 
     'missing link' - *there wasn't one*! 
     
     The Solomani as a geneered species! Whaddya say? Would this dent the 
     Solomani supremacists or what? 

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 14:16:30 +1000
Subject: PGMP and Fusion Plus (INCLUDES OFFICIAL QUESTION & COMMENT)

     Why aren't plasma/fusion weapons listed in T4? I have an idea for an 
     explanation: 
     
     The PGMP-12 arrives around TL12 (naturally!), which is around where 
     the microfusion technology 'Fusion Plus' comes in. It looks like the 
     PGMP would be a spinoff of Fusion Plus technology. Sound plausible?
     
     The development of the microfusion containment bottle that allows 
     teeny tiny fusion power plants, permits even smaller *plasma* 
     containment bottles. A primitive version of this was turned into the 
     slow but nasty PGMP-12; future refinements led to the PGMP-13/14, 
     FGMP-14/15/16, and TL16 Plasma Rifle (Fusion Rifle? I forget which!)
     
     This would place the Milieu Zero Imperium at early to mid TL12, with 
     prototypes at late TL12 and early TL13. The PGMP-12 is probably 
     available in prototype form in Year Zero, and will probably be 
     perfected sometime soon after Year Zero, probably by Zhunastu 
     technicians again (given their strong lead in Fusion Plus technology). 
     
     The PGMP-12, as a section or platoon support weapon, would give the 
     Imperial ground forces a substantial advantage over gauss rifle/RAM GL 
     equipped adversaries. 
     
     OFFICIAL QUESTION: 
     When is Fusion Plus developed? For it to have a significant impact on 
     the expansion of the late Federation into the Imperium, it probably 
     had to have been around a couple of decades in Year Zero. I'd place 
     the invention at about -20 to -25. 
     
     OFFICIAL COMMENT: I think inserting some inventions/technological 
     developments into the 'official' timeline, especially between years 
     -50 to +50, would give GMs a good feel for the pace of development in 
     the early Imperium. 

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 13:39:23 +1000
Subject: Alexandra Aurion, Marquess Black Shroud

     CHARACTER PROFILE: 
     
     Alexandra Aurion, Marquise Black Shroud, Countess Arrapas, Baroness 
     Del'Osa, Deputy President of the Grand Senate (suspended)
     
     STR DEX END INT EDU SOC        Age 46 (chronological)
      4   7   5   A   8   E     Age 26 (physical)
     Diplomacy-6, Admin-4, Law-4, Pistol-4, History-3, 
     Writing-2, Intimidation-2, Interrogation-2
     Gravitics-1, Carousing-1, Fencing-1, Carousing-1, Leader-1, Vac Suit-1
     
     TERM   CAREER      SKILLS
     I  College     Gravitics-1, Writing-2, History-1, +1 EDU
     Admitted to college only because of Social standing (family pulled 
     strings). Did not find studies easy; persevered only because of her 
     high intelligence. Began studying gravitic sciences but eventually 
     concentrated on history and literature. Graduated with Honours in 
     history. 
     
     II     Grad School History-2, Law-2, +1 EDU
     Found graduate school easy. Continued interest in history, and also 
     studied Sylean Federation law. Achieved Honours easily. 
     
     III    Noble       Carousing-1, Fencing-1, Carousing-1, Diplomacy-2,   
                +1 END, Admin-1
     After the mysterious death of her older sister, Alexandra was unable 
     to pursue her intended career as an historical scholar. She was 
     recalled home and trained in the duties of a high noble; during this 
     time she showed strong ability in administrative and diplomatic work 
     and was formally confirmed Baroness (commissioned). On taking office, 
     she quietly investigated her sister's death and discovered that her 
     sister had died at the hands of a Zhunastu corporate agent. Commenced 
     intensive exercise program to improve physical fitness. 
     
     IV Noble       Diplomacy-1, +1 STR, Law-1, Admin-1
     Baroness Aurion took her seat on the Grand Senate, and showed great 
     talent in the cut-and-thrust of Federation politics, mainly in 
     opposition to President Cleon's and his Expansionist faction. She 
     developed major alliances within her own Federalist faction, and 
     drafted a number of industrial laws, treaties and Moot protocols; most 
     of which, by strange coincidence, attacked Cleon's political and 
     financial interests. She also gained appointments to a number of minor 
     Senate committees. Continued physical fitness program. 
     
     V  Noble       Admin-1, Diplomacy-2, Leader-1, Intimidation-1 
     Political ability led to Aurion's elevation to Countess (promotion). 
     Aurion began gathering a broad coalition of political factions opposed 
     to Cleon's Expansionist policies. During this term, Aurion became 
     widely known in the Senate as a leader, a powerful orator, and a very 
     bad person to annoy. 
     
     VI Noble       +1 SOC, Intimidation-1, Vac Suit-1, Interrogation-1
     In this term, Aurion became leader of the Federalist faction, and was 
     elected chair of the Senate Rules and Finance Committees, with 
     consequent elevation to Marquise. Aurion established her reputation as 
     a fearsome questioner; bureaucrats and military leaders dreaded 
     appearance before the Rules and Finance committees, particularly if 
     they supported the Zhunastu conglomerate or Expansionist policies. 
     During this term, Aurion made an eternal enemy of Cleon, by blocking 
     Federation finance for key Expansionist policies, forcing Cleon to 
     fund them from his own resources. 
     
     VII    Noble       Law-1, Interrogation-1, Diplomacy-1, Admin-1 
     Marquise Aurion was elected Deputy President of the Grand Senate. 
     Although heavily burdened with administrative duties, she still 
     managed to engage in Moot politics and drafted many laws and Moot 
     rules. Late in the term, Deputy President Aurion fell completely out 
     of favour as a result of President Cleon's increasing control of the 
     Senate. 
     
     MUSTERING OUT      Yacht, TAS Membership, Pistol-4 
     Officially suspended from Senate duties to pursue 'personal 
     interests'. Cr250k Moot Sabbatical payment with Cr8k annuity. Received 
     Yacht and TAS membership. Took ceremonial pistol and became adept in 
     using it. 
     
     Character Outline: 
     When Cleon dissolved the Grand Senate and declared himself Emperor, he 
     contrived that Arion's powerful position of Deputy President of the 
     Grand Senate, which controlled most of the administrative and 
     financial dealings of the Senate, was transferred to the status of a 
     ceremonial figurehead within the Imperial Moot. Key posts, including 
     Cleon's former position of President, were filled by his supporters 
     among the nobility. 
     
     Aurion declined the ceremonial sinecure in the Imperial Moot, and took 
     a leave of absence with Emperor Cleon's blessing. Now that Cleon has 
     declared himself Emperor, Aurion's suspension from duty is effectively 
     permanent. The Marquise travels the frontiers, encouraging opposition 
     to the Third Imperium. 
     
     Aurion is dedicated to halt or delay Imperial expansion by any means 
     possible. She and Cleon are politically unable to strike each other 
     directly, but use covert methods to thwart each others' plans. As of 
     Year Zero, she and Cleon are engaged in a shadowy war of diplomats, 
     spies and saboteurs. 
     
     Aurion maintains quiet contacts among her former Federalist 
     colleagues, who make up the Democratic Coalition in the Moot. Her 
     allies defend her interests in the Moot and the Imperial Court, and 
     covertly feed her resources and information in the hope that she can 
     blunt Cleon's victory.  
     
     Cleon has forbidden Aurion's name to be mentioned in his presence. 
     Courtiers therefore tactfully refer to Aurion by her formal title, 
     "the Marquise of Black Shroud", or simply as "Black Shroud". 
     
     Referee's Notes:
     Aurion is a tragic figure in the classic sense. She is painfully aware 
     that her ongoing opposition to Cleon and the Expansionists in the 
     Grand Senate was, ironically, played a part in Cleon's decision to 
     dissolve the Federation and declare himself Emperor. 
     
     Aurion will always use diplomatic, legal or covert methods to strike 
     at Cleon, because her family maintains extensive industrial and 
     property holdings within Imperial territory. Aurion's plans generally 
     meet with mixed results; like her efforts to block Cleon in the 
     Senate, her successes often accelerate the very process she is trying 
     to stop. For example, her success in encouraging a key subsector in 
     refusing to join the Imperium might give Cleon a pretext for reducing 
     that subsector by military siege or economic blockade. 
     
     Aurion is physically very small, and appears to be in her mid-twenties 
     because she has been using anagathics for the past twenty years. She 
     is of near-pure Solomani Russian heritage, which is a source of 
     considerable tension between her and "that vicious mongrel, Cleon". 
     Her Intimidation skill relies on her Social and Intelligence stats, 
     rather than her physical strength. 
     
     She is adept at cutting through legal and administrative red tape, and 
     delights in punishing or embarrassing Cleon's supporters wherever 
     possible. Opponents sometimes make the mistake of judging by her 
     physical appearance, which is an error that only the powerful survive. 
     
     The greatest achievement of Aurion's career was in building fear and 
     intense distrust of Third Imperium among the worlds of Meshan, Mendan 
     and Amdukan. This resistance eventually led to the Julian War of 
     175-191, bringing a permanent end to the Imperium's coreward 
     expansion. 
     
     Ironically, she did not live to see this victory. Zhunastu assassins 
     finally killed her in 52, less than a year before Cleon's own death. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #554
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 14 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 555

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. A look at the first 200 years of the Imperium - LONG
         2. Traveller Timeline
         3. Professor Aldin Zhunastu
         4. Marine Uniform
         5. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
         6. Re: Problems with Starship Economics (long)
         7. Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)
         8. Re: Activity and more activity!
         9. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        10. Re: Niven
        11. PT, rifle drill and the beloved FN rifle
        12. Re: Background music
        13. Re: Background music
        14. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
        15. Re: News From Imperium Games
        16. Re: To: Joe Walsh

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 16:36:26 +1000
Subject: A look at the first 200 years of the Imperium - LONG

     Just to distract everyone from the fascinating thread discussing 
     shagging chimpanzees, I want to explore why the Third Imperium got to 
     the Spinward Marches so quickly but then stopped for 100 years. 
     
     *Monkey-free Zone*; OFFICIAL COMMENT REQUESTED
     
     Timeline: 
     50 Zhodani contact with Imperial traders.
     53 Death of Cleon. 
     60 Colonisation of Spinward Marches (Mora). 
     76-120 Pacification Campaigns (within area of First Imperium/Rule of 
     Man).
     148 Scouts recontact Darrians. 
     210-348 Vargr Campaigns
     
     It looks like Imperial scouts and traders were in the Marches for 
     about 100 years before anybody discovered the Darrians! Why is this 
     so? The dates tell the story. 
     
     Let's listen in to a lecture in History of the Marches 201 at the 
     University of Regina, c.1110. The lecturer is Professor Eneri Aulech, 
     an academic who is infamous for her theory that the Zhunastu Dynasty 
     did not invent Fusion Plus technology, but merely copied it from Rule 
     of Man artifacts. 
     
     *********************************************************************
     Cleon I concentrated upon expanding the Imperium, mainly by peaceful 
     means. He generally offered economic incentives to join what was 
     basically a free trade federation. If states refused, he would simply 
     establish tariff barriers around them and push on, figuring that they 
     would eventually want to join as their economies lagged behind the 
     Imperium. In order to fulfil his bargain with the Vilani to provide 
     protection from Vargr raiders and 'Psionic Boogeymen', Cleon 
     established outposts beyond Vland in the Corridor and Deneb sectors. 
     
     Cleon's secondary aims in settling the Trans-Rift territories were to 
     locate the fabled Zhodani and outflank the Vargr. Scouting and trade 
     routes through the Spinward Marches were concentrated almost 
     exclusively on the coreward subsectors. In 50, the Zhodani contacted 
     Imperial traders, leading to the settlement of Mora in 60 as an 
     outpost along the fledgeling trade route. 
     
     By the time of Cleon's death in 53, the Imperium resembled a (*very* 
     large) piece of Swiss cheese. Mora was the largest of a very small 
     number of Imperial colonies in the Marches. Cleon's successor, Cleon 
     II, felt that the Imperium was overextended to spinward, and decided 
     to consolidate, which gained him the name of Cleon the Weak among the 
     Expansionists in the Moot. 
     
     In the first century, the Moot was far from the rubber stamp it is in 
     today's Imperium; the Democratic coalition still exerted considerable 
     influence over the policies of the Imperium, while the Expansionists 
     were the basis of the Emperor's support among the nobility. By 
     alienating the Expansionists, Cleon II had ensured that his chance of 
     gaining approval for new policies was precisely zero. This is 
     generally believed to be the reason behind his emphasis on 
     consolidation within existing territories, for which he did not 
     require support in the Moot. 
     
     Cleon II removed the Scout Service from exploration outside existing 
     Imperial borders, which left a mere trickle of independent trade 
     though the Marches, which were defended by minimal Naval forces. He 
     directed the Scouts to concentrate on recontact within the borders of 
     the old *Ziru Sirka*, especially towards the Solomani Rim and the 
     coreward frontier. 
     
     Cleon II's successor, Artemsus, found that the 'holes' in the Imperium 
     were beginning to disrupt trade; some of them were issuing letters of 
     marque to privateers and evading Imperial trade tariffs. Artemsus 
     found that the megacorporations (largely owned by Expansionist 
     nobility) would support him in a campaign against these 'recalcitrant' 
     enclaves. 
     
     Artemsus issued an ultimatum to these troublesome states: take their 
     proper place as subjects of the Imperium, or be declared rebels. Some 
     joined, but many refused. The Emperor therefore appointed Archdukes 
     from among his Expansionist supporters, who were made responsible for 
     subduing their respective Domains. From 76-120 the Imperium's vast 
     resources were heavily engaged in the Pacification Campaigns, leaving 
     little for exploitation of the Marches. 
     
     The Domains were assigned as follows: Antares, Vland, Sylea (the 
     Emperor himself was Archduke of Sylea), Gateway, Ilelish, and Sol. The 
     Pacification Campaigns progressed well, although Vland found it 
     difficult holding their borders against the Vargr. The Antarean 
     campaign met with substantial resistance among the sectors that later 
     became the Julian Protectorate, while the Gateway campaign ground to a 
     halt through lack of finances, before any major gains could be made 
     beyond the Lesser Rift. 
     
     After the Pacification Campaigns ended in 120, the Archdukes spent 
     considerable time maintaining garrisons in captured territory. 
     Gradually the conquered territories quietened, releasing resources for 
     further exploration. Between 130 and 140, trade routes through the 
     Spinward Marches were reestablished, with further scouting in the 
     Rimward subsectors of the Marches leading to contact with the Darrians 
     in 148. 
     
     By this time the potential of the Spinward Main was recognised, with 
     the result that the Marches exploded with economic growth from 
     150-200. Of course, the increased volume of trade in the Marches, 
     Deneb and Corridor sectors proved to be very attractive to Vargr 
     corsairs. Under pressure from the Vilani megacorporations, the 
     Imperium finally took the battle to the enemy with the Vargr campaigns 
     from 210-348. 
     **********************************************************************
     Corrections and discussion very welcome! 
     Michael
     
     JOE - ANY CHANCE OF GETTING OFFICIAL COMMENT ON SOME OF MY 
     "HISTORICAL" POSTINGS? 

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 14:26:12 +1000
Subject: Traveller Timeline

     Sorry I can't find the URL for that timeline I was quoting, but it's 
     called "A Traveller Timeline" and I'm holding a print off in my hand. 
     
     The best timeline I've seen in 'official' game materials is on pages 
     6-7 of the Megatraveller Imperial Encyclopedia. 

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 13:20:37 +1000
Subject: Professor Aldin Zhunastu

     Anybody considered the possibility that Aldin Zhunastu might not have 
     been of the Zhunastu *family*, but only had that name because he was a 
     member of their *household*? 
     
     If Aldin were working for the Zhunastus, he could have been given that 
     name to signify him as their *serf*. Seems to fit in with the 
     feudal-style flavour of Milieu Zero; and it would make some sense that 
     some elements of the Vilani caste system might have lingered on in 
     Sylea. 
     
     Professor Aldin might be the latest of a line of scientists faithfully 
     serving the Zhunastu family...

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 14 Oct 1996 20:40:01 GMT
Subject: Marine Uniform

>Marines: Dark red/Maroon jacket, white trousers, maroon beret, black boots.

There was a good description of 1100-era Imperial uniforms in Travellers
Digest #9.  This is pretty close, except that the Marines wore white helmets
with gold visors.

I painted some Star Wars Naval Troopers in these colours and they make great
Imperial Marines in dress uniform.

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:02:05 -0800
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

Joe,

>Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
>the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
>
>A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
>Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
>with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, though.

Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT paying
me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of this
writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have the
proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
use it for whatever they want, because they own it?

Hope you can clear this up Joe,


_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:48:51 PST
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Economics (long)

In mail you write:

Warning! Most of my comments are based on CT and some MT. 

> To top this idea off, I think the published materials underestimate the
> day to day costs of running a starship.  The following expenses are not
> usually included as I recall (disclaimer: all published materials are at
> home);
>
> Food and drink for passengers and crew

Covered as part of the ticket price for passengers. Covered as part of
life support for crew.

> Convoy Escort Fees

Since when are the ships travelling in convoys? And if this is a
*military* escort, the "fees" are "your tax dollars at work". 

Reality check. IN WWI and WWII there were no such fees charged.

> Tariffs, Duties, Taxes, and other government fees (avoided when smuggling)

Mentioned in passing in the rules but not detailed.

> Brokerage fees

Mentioned rather prominently in the rules! Mostly in examples of *why*
you needed certain skills...

> Delivery charges

Those tend to be *retail* fees. Starships count as "wholesale". Even if
you don't agree with that, if you get charged a "delivery fee for the
cargo, you'll either be very upset with the cargo broker who sold it to
you, or it will have been *included* in the negotiations.

And at the other end, *you* are the one who'd be *charging* the fee.

Also, look up what F.O.B. means with regards to shipments.

> Loading/unloading charges (or, perhaps, heavy equipment rental)

Since starships can't easily have the huge open "side" that surface
vessels do, you have to build a lot of the container handling gear into
the ship. A small crane/hoist that can be run out from the hatch to
raise/lower containers at lower tech ports deals with the rest. Once
it's sitting "dockside" it's the *customer's* problem unless he pays
extra. In which case you rent a vehicle, and charge him that *plus*.

> Furniture, curtains, linens, little bars of soap, complimentary towels,
> etc etc for passenger and crew staterooms

Most of these are not "consumables". And as such, they come under
"maintenance". Remember, these are *not* luxury liners. You are
essentially taking passage on a tramp steamer. So don't expect "Hilton"
service. More like Motel 6.

> Plates, silverware, condiments, finger bowls, napkins, dishwashing liquid,
> plumbing fixtures (where do they keep the drinking water?), all the stuff
> found in kitchens and dining rooms

Water is *not* a problem in a closed environment. In fact, since human
metabolism *produces* water, you'll end up with more water than you
started with.

On the average ship, napkins are going to be recylable fiber ("paper")
not linen. There won't *be* finger bowls. Plumbing fixtures are part of
the ships life support systems.


> Oxygen, Nitrogen, Other chemicals for air or waste processing, Other
> consumables besides the fuel itself, hookups while docked, septic tank
> pumping, waste removal.

All of this comes under life support. That includes recycling.
Depending on the level of recycling/life support, there won't *be* a
septic tank, ditto for a lot of waste removal.

Given the *huge* amounts of waste heat available from the power plant,
at a minimum, the wastes would be heated to drive of water and other
volatiles, and the solids sterilized (by heat, radiation, or both). The
water would get distilled and re-used. The solids can be *sold*
groundside, or on larger ships they go into the recycling system (which
is primarily *organic*)

Oxygen can be released from the excess water, and the CO2 "cracked"
into oxygen and "soot". That's only for small ships though. Larger ones
will use plants to recycle air, water, and portions of the wastes. 

Septic tanks are a *bad* idea for shipboard use. They rely on anaerobic
bacteria and are *really* touchy about some things, and can give off
dangerous gases. Processing using aerobic bacteria is actually safer
and easier. You effectively "compost" the wastes. And the result is
ready to be used in the ship's "farm".

> There's quite a bit to this starship economics thing that doesn't seem to
> show up.

Some is *assumed*. Other portions are actually "hidden" in other items,
such as "life support" and "maintenance".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:06:37 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

In mail you write:

> Moin Phillip McGregor,
>
>> What are the actual costs involved in starship operations? Well, we know =
>> that life support costs are 2000 Cr per stateroom per two weeks (and the =
>> components - presumably including food - take no space on the ship!), =
>
>         Sorry 2MCr per passenger for life support ;-( 
>         I dont recall CT/MT but TNE states that these 2MCr are
>         per Passenger+Crew ;-(

You mean 2 *k*Cr, not *M*Cr!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:08:10 PST
Subject: Re: Activity and more activity!

In mail you write:

> 3) Jump-time Theories:  This thread was dear to me (after all, some of the
> posts had my name in the subject line!) and I'm glad to see that it was
> peacably resolved in my absence.  I liked Glenn Hoppe's (hope I got that 
> right!) proposed rationale/soultion except for one question it raises to
> me:  are we to assume that all the major races individually came up with
> "cooling" systems that had identical (1-week-lag) efficiency on their own
> thousands of years ago, or is it possible that long ago some races were
> "better" (ie- faster) than others, but that now the technology has been
> spread evenly throughout Charted Space?  And also, how likely is the second
> case to be true?  After all, not all the Major Races have achieved TL-15,
> even though the (1100-era) Imperium has).

Remember, this "cooling" is more along the lines of a charge "leaking"
off of something. In short, it is governed more by natural law than by
design.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:58:23 PST
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

In mail you write:

> On 11 Oct 96 at 19:29, Leonard Erickson spewed:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> Shouldn't that be:
>> 
>> "I _know_ the briefing said these TED troops are Tech 6 . . . this
>>  platoon has Tech-8 gear. If you survive the battle you can discuss
>>  it to your heart's content with division intel..."
>> 
>> :-)
>
> Actually, try this on for size...
>
> "I know the briefing said these TED troops are TL 6...this platoon 
> has TL 8 gear.  If we make it through the mission, some REMF at intel 
> probably won't live to repeat the mistake..."
>
> :-)

"But all we had were unconfirmed *rumors* of TL 8 gear!"

"Do *this* look like a rumor?" KaBlamm!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:03:41 PST
Subject: Re: Niven

In mail you write:

> Someone said:
>
>>BTW, as long as we are talking about GP#2 hulls, how about having it be
>>Beowulf Scheaffer and that little ship he was piloting around the
>>neutron star? Disable the bomb in time and you'll have one *nasty*
>>combat vessel on your hands.
>
> The pocket battleship was in "The Borderland of Sol", the ship in "Neutron
> Star" was unarmed.

Better re-read Neutron Star. The ship was most definitely armed. Bey
was planning on stealing it and running off the sell it to someone like
the Free Wunderland people.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 13:16:38 +1000
Subject: PT, rifle drill and the beloved FN rifle

     I was *Amused To Death* with the story of PT with rifles. I very 
     fondly remember training in the Australian Army with the SLR (Self 
     Loading Rifle, it's not my name, don't laugh at *me*) which is the 
     Australian version of the FN. 
     
     About 5kg of arm's length exercise hell, but I didn't complain. I 
     would have lost too much face. My section gunner was doing the same 
     exercises but using an M-60 machine gun! They make their boys *big* in 
     Samoa...
     
     Anyway, once you can do all the exercises you can scare the bollocks 
     off recruits and pogoes. That seemed to be the only point anyway. 

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:07:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Background music

At 7:59 PM -0400 10/14/96, Steinar Knutsen wrote:
>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was great
>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>for.)

Well, I like Holst, or just about any John Williams score, but I tend to be
looking for a more upbeat tone.  You might try some Nine Inch Nails, though.

I almost always go with instrumentals since lyrics tend to distract the
players, although sometimes I'll throw in hints about what's going on,
either through lyrics or song titles.



Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21
"Mom!  I let my mind wander and it didn't come back!" - Bill Waterson



------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:40:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Background music

>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was gre=
at
>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>for.)

Certain parts of the "Babylon 5" soundtrack (Christopher Franke) would do
quite nicely, though some of the more melodramatic pieces you may wish to
save for queues. Other Vangelis and early Jarre, Vollenweider's "Down to
the Moon"... lots of things to choose from.

- --=20
r. n. dominick -- cinnamon@one.net

New on The Game Shelf: D6 review and D6: Wild West!
http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/



------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:50:57 -0400
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

Peter Miller, quoting Joe Walsh:
> >Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to

> >the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
> >A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
> >Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
> >with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE,
though.
> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT
paying
> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of
this
> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have
the
> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along
and
> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?

Woah, woah. This is NOT what the legal contact at Imperium Games told me
when I asked exactly what I needed to put on my web pages to make them
kosher. The only text on my page
(http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/traveller.html) is this:

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. All rights
reserved.

I can see Imperium Games wanting this, and also wanting you to copyright
your *own* pages (which is not a bad idea in and of itself) so that someone
cannot come along and reprint them. The statement above just reinforces
FarFuture's trademark status on Traveller.

- -- 
r. n. dominick -- cinnamon@one.net

New on The Game Shelf: D6 review and D6: Wild West!
http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:07:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: News From Imperium Games

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Daniel Poulin wrote:

> Sorry for the mistake. With the way you were talking, I thought you 
> were Imperium games.  I did leave them two messages at the address
> you indicate earlier.  I haven't heard from them and I find this very 
> frustrating.  Sorry again.

No problem.  I'm just glad I hadn't missed two emails from you, as you 
had said! :)  


> Maybe you should clarify (for me and the other nincompoops (is that the 
> word?) who don't know who you are?  

Heh.  I'm probably the nincompoop, for not making it clear right away.

Here's a good way to think of it:  I'm like a reporter.  I have the 
equivalent of a "press pass" with IG.  I can find out information that 
others can't.  And I report that information to you.  That't it. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:12:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: To: Joe Walsh

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:

> I have not received any comment about what I said vis a vis animal damage in my first 
> post
> So, I will repeat it
> 
> If you roll animal damage (ie pre-roll) then how do you work in armour (which subtracts 
> dice not damage) and how would you deal with initial and subsequent wounds. If each 
> die is separate, then how do you distribute an animal attack of 11 points. Or even if you 
> kept the dice, how would you divvy up 2D x 3, as each die tripled?
> 
> As I stated before, I have been  a gamer for 14 years now and can figure out a house 
> rule. But if you want Traveller to appeal to new gamers (I sure do) these things need to 
> be addressed

Sorry for not responding sooner.  What I usually do is write down 
questions that I think need "official answers," then when I call IG I ask 
them, THEN I respond.  Maybe I should revise this policy.

Anyway, that was on the list of questions I asked Ken Whitman today 
(taking time out from my parent's visit - they visit once every four 
years, so feel priviledged[G]).  Unfortunately, that and other 
rules-related questions were put on a list to be answered by them later 
this week.  Meaning, Ken didn't have an answer handy, and no one nearby 
to him had an answer.  They have to look through their notes or whatever, 
to see what (mistakenly) wasn't published in T4.  
Same goes for the cost of Diplo, Helmets, and Reflec, by the way.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #555
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 15 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 556

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 3,2,1...0
         2. Re: The only explanation! 
         3. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
         4. Doing REAL good here...
         5. CSC Info from Greg Porter
         6. Answers
         7. Re: 3,2,1...0
         8. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
         9. RE: IG FAQ, 10/14/96 
        10. Cthulhu and Human Superiority
        11. Carlos: Geonee...
        12. Re: 3,2,1...0
        13. Posting Errata...
        14. Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump
        15. Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details
        16. IG's New Copyright Policy
        17. Jump-duration stuff
        18. Re: Travelling Time (was: Hop, Skip, and Jump)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:13:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Matthew Mactyre wrote:

> Hmm... Well, even if there were ancient sites in the solar system I still
> believe that we developed the jump drive independently.  Perhaps, finding
               ^^
> those ancient sites led to the research making jump drives available but in
> my game the Solomani are still a major race.10

Well, it's pretty clear that Matthew Mactyre is a Solomani racist...[G]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:20:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The only explanation! 

On 15 Oct 1996 Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>      The Solomani as a geneered species! Whaddya say? Would this dent the 
>      Solomani supremacists or what? 

[snicker]  I LOVE the idea. :)  This could work in a campaign.  It could 
easily be as important a discovery as that of the Droyne being the 
Ancients. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:31:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT paying
> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of this
> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have the
> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?

Not necessarily.  *FFE* could come along and use it.  You see, you are 
building on AND REFERENCING a property of FarFuture Enterprises.  Without 
FFE, you wouldn't HAVE a product/article/whatever.  

To get around this, you have to get a Letter of Permission from FFE, or 
pay for a License.  

Why?  Without enforcing those rules, FFE could LOSE it's Trademark and 
Copyrights!  That's the way the law works.

Xerox has to VIROROUSLY pursue those who say their photocopiers
"xerox."  Similar for Kimberly-Klark and their trademark "Kleenex."  In 
private conversaton is one thing, but once it is public - ie, Puffs (TM) 
calling their products "Kleenex" - there is a legal problem, whether the 
TM owner wants to face it or not.

Let's say FFE let people use the Traveller trademark, and produce 
products (even not for sale) for free, and continue owning those 
products.  Then let's say I come along and produce a product, say it is 
for Traveller, and start selling it without paying FFE a license fee.  If 
Marc hauled me into court over it, I could point to all the people he let 
slide, and say that Traveller was no longer a Trademark, but rather it 
was in the public domain - a generic name - because he let others use it 
without paying a license fee.  I would almost certainly WIN, and be 
allowed to sell my "Traveller" products without paying Marc.

In short, it doesn't mean IG and FFE/Marc Miller are jerks - they HAVE to 
treat it that way if they want to retain their legal rights.

Hope this clears it up.


- -Joe
PS: I personally doubt it that FFE/IG would publish someone's work 
without at least asking permission. (My personal opinion, mind you.)  But, 
legally, yes, you are correct - anything with the Traveller name on it 
is either MM's property, or he has licensed it to be made.  There  can 
be no in-between, legally speaking.
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:42:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Doing REAL good here...

I made a serious mistake.

I noted that Roger Sanger, owner of the DGP material, wanted me to ask IG 
about his license to reproduce that material.  This was NOT what he asked 
of me.

In reality, he asked whether it was the case that IG wanted me to post 
something about thier position on the ongoing negotiations - i.e., their 
side of the story.

I completely misread Roger's email to me.

I have apologized to him privately (I hope he understands it was an 
honest mistake), but I also wanted to clear it up publicly.

[sigh]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:49:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CSC Info from Greg Porter

Here is a bit of info on CSC from Greg Porter, who is the man behind that 
supplement...

- --------

The CSC is split into "Imperial Surplus", a small selection of items that 
are available in quantity at a discount for export,and which may also be 
useful to adventurers on a budget (10 scrap APC's for the price of 
one...), "Adventuring Gear" (ranging from compasses to grapple guns), 
"Personal Protection" (armor, spacesuits, etc), "Miscellaneous Goods"
(stuff that didn't fit into other categories) and vehicle design/combat,
liberally sprinkled with the add-on rules you need to use some of the items.

There is nothing really wierd or out of the way in there, and most of it is
designed for Mileu 0 play (i.e. TL12-), with some items of advanced
electronics of higher TL, and the vehicle rules cover design up to and
including TL15, which should be largely compatible with power systems and
design concepts for starships.

Greg

- ----------


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:52:33 -0400
Subject: Answers

>Here's some stuff IG should be getting to me by the end of the week:
>
>A)  A table of contents for Aliens Archive, and one for CSC.
>
>B)  Prices for Diplo, Helmets, and Reflec coating.
>
>Thought you'd like to know....

Thank you to you and to IG. After FIVE attempts, I may finally get my
answer... :)
                                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:00:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Thus spake Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>:

> Jeff Cornish wrote:
> > Not necessarily.  When physicists first uncovered the principle of the
> > LASER, I'm sure they have no concept of it's use in everyday items, like
> > CD-ROMs, range finders, gyroscopes, anti-missile defenses, etc.
> 
> But they still new what exactly it could do when they built one. 
> The phrase used in the book was something to the effect of they did not know what 
> range it had. This seems to indicate either sloppy science, or it was something they really 
> did not understand

I believe that one of the earliest detractors of the newly-discovered 
laser remarked that it was "an interesting solution without a problem."  
Kinda what they said about the telephone too, ennit?
 
> > The problem may have been in the initial design--perhaps early Terran
> > Jumpdrives used a very inefficient design or weren't able to deliver
> > enough power to the jump-grid to make a very long jump (maybe they
> > didn't have Zuchai crystals and were forced to use Folger's <gdr>)
> 
> That is reasonable. BTW thank you for not even jokingly mentioning Dilithium

Or (gasp) Flavor Crystals?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:06:57 -0400
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

Joe says:
> Not necessarily.  *FFE* could come along and use it.  You see, you are 
> building on AND REFERENCING a property of FarFuture Enterprises.  Without

> FFE, you wouldn't HAVE a product/article/whatever.  

No, noone could come along and use it. According to Imperium's own web
page, the ONLY thing you have to do is acknowledge FFE's registered
trademark -- Traveller. That's fine.

Look at the "Other Sites" page on the web site. The symbol given in the
text of the disclaimer you have to use is the (R) -- not the (C). With a
Letter of Permission -- what you get when you write Matt Machtan? Or is it
more complex than that? He said: "Yeah, sure, just be sure it says this:",
and it does -- and the acknowledgment of trademark, there is *no reason* to
give copyright of your own pages to FFE.

- -- 
r. n. dominick -- cinnamon@one.net

New on The Game Shelf: D6 review and D6: Wild West!
http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:13:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: IG FAQ, 10/14/96 

In Reply to Your Message of Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22: 31:42 CDT
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:13:10 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:
: 
: > Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT paying
: > me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of this
: > writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have the
: > proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
: > use it for whatever they want, because they own it?
: 
: Not necessarily.  *FFE* could come along and use it.  You see, you are 
: building on AND REFERENCING a property of FarFuture Enterprises.  Without 
: FFE, you wouldn't HAVE a product/article/whatever.  
: 
: To get around this, you have to get a Letter of Permission from FFE, or 
: pay for a License.  
: 
: Why?  Without enforcing those rules, FFE could LOSE it's Trademark and 
: Copyrights!  That's the way the law works.

However, trademark infringement is very touchy, because to be infringing
on the trademark, you usually have to be making money off of someone
else's work without their permission.

That's why so many people copyright a fan fiction piece (actually,
anything you write is automatically copyrighted), and then state that
the piece is trademarked by whoever owns the trade mark and that it is
used without permission.

Once you acknowledge that something is trademarked, you are not
challenging it.  Once you try to sell something for a trademarked
product, you are in a position to be sued.

: Xerox has to VIROROUSLY pursue those who say their photocopiers
: "xerox."  Similar for Kimberly-Klark and their trademark "Kleenex."  In 
: private conversaton is one thing, but once it is public - ie, Puffs (TM) 
: calling their products "Kleenex" - there is a legal problem, whether the 
: TM owner wants to face it or not.

I thought that Xerox lost their trademark.  Either that or they came
dangerously close.  But remember, this only comes when you don't
acknowledge the true owner of the trademark.  An example that has taken
place in our lifetime is "Do They Know It's Christmas" by Band Aid.
Johnson and Johnson regretted having to take (Virgin?) records to court
and forcing the record to be pulled from the market because the song was
released for a humanitarian effort.  J+J unfortunately had no choice
because they had to defend their trademark (nowhere on the album was is
stated that Band-Aid is a trademark of J+J).

: Let's say FFE let people use the Traveller trademark, and produce 
: products (even not for sale) for free, and continue owning those 
: products.  Then let's say I come along and produce a product, say it is 
: for Traveller, and start selling it without paying FFE a license fee.  If 
: Marc hauled me into court over it, I could point to all the people he let 
: slide, and say that Traveller was no longer a Trademark, but rather it 
: was in the public domain - a generic name - because he let others use it 
: without paying a license fee.  I would almost certainly WIN, and be 
: allowed to sell my "Traveller" products without paying Marc.

If you write something and share it with your friends, then it's
copyrighted by you.  As long as you acknowlegde that it's trademarked by
FFE, then it's all cool because you're not selling another person's
trademark.

If you publish it and sell it, then you're in trouble because you
haven't purchased any publication rights, and thus you are ifringing on
FFE's livelihood.

Yes, there *is* a difference.

: In short, it doesn't mean IG and FFE/Marc Miller are jerks - they HAVE to 
: treat it that way if they want to retain their legal rights.
: 
: Hope this clears it up.

Admitting that your work is based upon someone's trademark doesn't
constitute in your work automatically being the property of the
trademark holder.  It's still your work, and the trademark holder has to
decide under what terms they want to purchase it from you (when you pay
a licensing fee, you are selling your work to them).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:13:40 -0700
Subject: Cthulhu and Human Superiority

At 10:13 PM 10/14/96 -0500, you wrote:

>> Hmm... Well, even if there were ancient sites in the solar system I still
>> believe that we developed the jump drive independently.  Perhaps, finding
>               ^^
>> those ancient sites led to the research making jump drives available but in
>> my game the Solomani are still a major race.10
>
>Well, it's pretty clear that Matthew Mactyre is a Solomani racist...[G]

No, not a racist.  I just believe in the inherent superiority of Humanity
(and that's with a "y" not an "i.")  <grin>  Have you ever played Cthulhu?
Our group has a saying: "Humanity.  A greater independent race -- and we're
here to keep it that way."

Speaking of which -- has anyone else ever imported Cthulhu mythos into their
Traveller games?  The Mi-go have come a long way in the last few thousand
years...  Ever heard of hand-held Meson weapons? <BG>


------------------------------

From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:21:40 -0700
Subject: Carlos: Geonee...

 
Dear Carlos,
 
The Geonee  were presented in detail  in DGP's Travellers' Digest
(magazine)  #17.  They  were  the  special  focus  of  the issue,
introduced  as  the  main  non-player  characters  in the feature
adventure  "Missing in  Transit" in  the Digest's  epic series of
adventures: "The  Grand Tour". There are  plenty of illustrations
showing their size and their garb, including the cover painting.
 
Shiwonee, the Geonee Homeworld is  also presented, in DGP's Grand
Survey  (World Builders'  Handbook) format.  A tech-level  G (16)
world,  Shiwonee is  an interesting  place to  visit, though  not
nearly as interesting as the arrogant and essentric Geonee (among
other things, they keep their women under lock and key, including
their posessions  - even crewmembers  who belong to  them!). They
claim to be a "Major Race", not by virtue of discovering the jump
drive  (they  didn't),  but  by  virtue  of  being  the  Ancients
themselves!  This claim is ignored by the official  six (that is,
five *)  Major Races, but the  Geonee actually do have  a special
relationship  with the  Ancients -  chirpers are  integrated into
their society and  have a very central role  in their culture. Of
course,  the  Geonee  are  first  to  brag  about  their superior
technology, and they act as superior beings at every opportunity,
despite their  diminutive stature (they  aren't much taller  than
chirpers!).
 
The  feature adventure  comes  complete  with a  diabolical plot,
Ancient Artifacts, and even a love interest.  :)
 
As with  most Travellers' Digests, the  astrography of the region
is  also  presented,  complete  with  library  data.  Of  course,
as in  all TDs, character  descriptions of the  PCs of the  Grand
Tour series (Akidda Laagiir,  Dur Telemon, Dr. Theodor Krenstein,
and the AI robot AB 101) are included.
 
 
 
Travellers' Digest 11 also presents  a system survey of the world
Far  Trinity in  the  Massilia  sector, "Project  Blackheart" (an
ultra secret  EYES ONLY naval  adventure set in  the aftermath of
the Fifth Frontier War  against an imposing Zhodani technological
threat),  an  entry  in  the  regular  feature  "Medical  Digest"
covering  TL  9  to  TL  12  human  medicine, detailed "Traveller
Arsenal" descriptions and illustrations of the PGMP-12, the Gauss
Pistol,  and  the  Gauss  Rifle,  a  "Tech  Brief" on information
processing,  Traveller  Q's  &  A's,  and  a  couple  informative
articles  for  use  with  GDW's  2300  game  ("An Overview of the
American Arm" and "Exploration: American Style").
 
 
 
* Special  Note:  In Travellers' Digest  #17, in  the Grand  Tour
Feature Adventure "The Blade of Koiyehk", it is revealed that the
Aslan are  not a Major Race!  Not only did they  not discover the
jump-drive  for  themselves,  but  they  learned  about  it  from
humans!) Their honor would certainly be threatened if this secret
were  to become  public  knowledge.  Will our  hearty adventurers
escape with the secret and their lives? (Cliffhanger ending...).
 
:)
 
I hope I've been of help.
 
Food for thought,
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications
 

------------------------------

From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:54:58 -0500
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

At 11:00 PM 10/14/96, Wes Payne wrote:
>Thus spake Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>:
>
>> Jeff Cornish wrote:
>> > Not necessarily.  When physicists first uncovered the principle of the
>> > LASER, I'm sure they have no concept of it's use in everyday items, like
>> > CD-ROMs, range finders, gyroscopes, anti-missile defenses, etc.
>>
>> But they still new what exactly it could do when they built one.
>> The phrase used in the book was something to the effect of they did not
>>know what
>> range it had. This seems to indicate either sloppy science, or it was
>>something they really
>> did not understand

For a long time, everyone thought that flight past Mach 1 would not
be possible...

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:18:58 -0700
Subject: Posting Errata...

Ooops.  The Geonee were presented in TD 11, not TD 17 as I posted.

<sheepish grin>

Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications

------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 15 Oct 96 01:05:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and Jump

In regard to the "tunnelling" theory of jumps and the (approximate) one week
travel time posted earlier, I like Leonard Erickson's suggestion of the time
differences at the two ends producing some variability. Another source of
variablity could also be variations in the n-dimensional density along any given
path, perhaps indirectly related to 3-D masses on the surface. 

The real skill of the astrogator would be in having a feeling or some knowledge
of the precise adjustments for a given jump. The old seagoing navigators on
earth (especially the Polynesians) used a combination of science (ie, the stars)
and a feeling for the winds, clouds, and waves based on experience and tradition
or logs.

Some explaination of misjumps is also needed. I like the suggestions that a ship
will "bubble" out of jumpspace sooner or later if there are problems with the
jump drive. Maybe every jump has a little misjump associated with it.

I feel the term "jump drive" is a misnomer. Once a jump is initiated, nothing
can be done to stop it, lengthen it, or change its direction. In jump space,
there is nothing for a traditional-type drive to push against. After it starts,
the crew is just along for the ride trusting to the skill of the astrogator.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 01:31:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> Problem is, GDW never really generated sectors like this...  If you
> look at the UWP stats for the sectors they did (Solomani Rim, Spinward
> Marches, Diaspora) they cooked the books, did them by hand.  These
> sectors were the better for it...
> 
> DGP in creating all those sectors on the net, used a random number
> generator that wasn't all that random, and badly flawed besides...
> David Nilsen referred to it once as "a needle stuck in the same
> groove."  A lot of the DGP sectors were badly flawed..

I'm curious, Stu.  In what way were the DGP sectors flawed?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IG's New Copyright Policy

Joe Walsh reports IG's copyright policy: 
>Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
>the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
>
>A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
>Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
>with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, though.

Man, I sure hope this is some sort of misunderstanding.

Peter Miller writes:
> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT paying
> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of this
> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have the
> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?

Not only does it mean that. It seems, at least by interpretation, to mean
that if IG decides at some later date that they no longer want your
starship designs on the web, they can effectively shut you down. By
agreeing to this policy now, you would be sacrificing all rights to your
own designs.
 
"athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net> (r.n. dominick) writes:
> Woah, woah. This is NOT what the legal contact at Imperium Games told me
> when I asked exactly what I needed to put on my web pages to make them
> kosher. The only text on my page
> (http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/traveller.html) is this:
> Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. All rights
> reserved.

Looks like the policy just changed.

> I can see Imperium Games wanting this, and also wanting you to copyright
> your *own* pages (which is not a bad idea in and of itself) so that someone
> cannot come along and reprint them. The statement above just reinforces
> FarFuture's trademark status on Traveller.

Unless there is some form of miscommunication going on, which I *really*
hope is the case, it sounds to me like somebody at Imperium Games just
pulled a T$R. IMHO, this totally changes the relationship IG had with the
TML and with the fanzines and Traveller-enthusiasts everywhere. Joe, can
we get some sort of explanation for this? Is there perhaps some sort of
error?

Just to stick my neck onto the chopping block, here's the sort of
disclaimer that I could understand:

  "Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).
  Use of this trademark or of any material copyrighted by FFE is not
  to be interpreted as a claim on such material. This work is to be
  considered "unofficial" and FFE cannot be held liable for damages,
  material or otherwise, resulting from its use. This work is
  copyright 1996 (author's name). All rights reserved, except that
  FFE may draw on this work in any fashion they deem appropriate."

This reason I include the last sentence is just for IG's own protection,
as it is possible that by pure coincidence, IG might publish something
fairly similar to something a fan writes, and this line would protect
them from the fan suing (not that I could envision this ever happening,
but it pays to cover your aft-quarters every now and then). Of course,
the fan would have to rely on IG's sense of "rightness" to not publish
their work wholesale without compensation, but I don't see this as a
problem. Some people (like myself) might not even want compensation,
and might amend the last sentence to read: "All rights reserved, except
that FFE is invited to draw on this work or even republish it without
requesting permission."

In writing all this, of course, I'm operating on the possibly-erroneous
assumption that Marc Miller isn't fixated on pulling a T$R. If he is, and
this advice is unwelcome, then Marc/Joe/somebody... please let us know so
that we can each make the personal decision about whether or not we, as
individual Traveller-fans, are willing to put up with this sort of
treatment. For myself, I have certain obligations to people who have
contributed material to the next version of "Galactic", but after that,
I can't really see myself staying involved with Traveller unless this new
policy of IG's is substantially amended.

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:21:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Jump-duration stuff

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:08:10 -0800 (PST)
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>Remember, this "cooling" is more along the lines of a charge "leaking"
>off of something. In short, it is governed more by natural law than by
>design.

   OK, I get it now.  It was just the terminology that was getting in my 
way.  Anyway, now that the confusion there's been cleared up, I'm able
to lend my full support to this explanation of jump-duration.

Alrighty then; what's next on the agenda?

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:47:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Travelling Time (was: Hop, Skip, and Jump)

J_Lambert wrote:
> 
> In regard to the "tunnelling" theory of jumps and the (approximate) one week
> travel time posted earlier, I like Leonard Erickson's suggestion of the time

As I am quite new to Traveller, my question may be an "overdone" one.
I think I missed the earlier postings partially.

Is travelling time in jump-space really ALWAYS 1 week?
This would mean, that every point in normal space is in the same distance 
from any point in jump-space. Sounds strange ...
But of course, time and space are not always the same, are they?

Cya.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #556
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 15 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 557

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Jump-duration stuff
         2. Volc 101: (was Reply to comments on Spires)
         3. RE: Background music
         4. Re: Background Music
         5. Ken's Task Fix Prototype!
         6. Re: IISS Uniforms
         7. Re: Background music
         8. Re: 3,2,1...0
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #544
        10. Re: Niven
        11. Re: Background music
        12. Re: IISS Uniforms
        13. Agenda?!?!?!?
        14. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
        15. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
        16. Re: Trademark and Copyright
        17. Copyright/TM policy
        18. Re: M. Falcon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:29:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Jump-duration stuff

Trent Smith wrote:
>    OK, I get it now.  It was just the terminology that was getting in my
> way.  Anyway, now that the confusion there's been cleared up, I'm able
> to lend my full support to this explanation of jump-duration.

Trent!  So they got you too, eh?

 
> Alrighty then; what's next on the agenda?

Well, it's back to my task system, then.  I think I have come up with a T4 fix that you 
are going to like.  Let me know.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:37:45 +1300
Subject: Volc 101: (was Reply to comments on Spires)

>From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 17:14:01 -0400
>Subject: Reply to comments on Spires
>
>Derek Stanley wrote in:
>>Obsidian is only formed under very specific conditions.

Actually, in the formation of obsidian, there are not _really_ specific
conditions. Obsidian is volcanic glass, an amorphous substance that has
formed due to rapid cooling. It is most commonly associated with regions of
acidic volcanism (Mt. St Helens and the volcanoes of the US's Cascades
range), but can be found in areas of more basic volcanism (such as at
Hawaii and Iceland).

>>Exteremly thin runny lave has to solidify at an extremely fast rate.

The Lava dose not need to be _exteremly thin_, but this does help in the
rapid cooling of the lava.


Thanks in advance,


PS: I know this has little to do with the TRAVELLER game, but gives me my
first chance to use 3.5 years of Geological schooling! I've read posts in
the past were the physics of rapid decompression and Jump theories were
thrashed to a quantified pulp, so I thought I'd drop in and help clarify
the Geology for anyone who may actually notice the anomaly.



------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:37:48 +1300
Subject: RE: Background music

>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was gr=
>eat
>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>for.)

I would try Holst's _The Planets_ (Mar's the Bringer of War is good), the
soundtrack to _2001_ is another possability. Vangellis can be a bit soft at
times and not moody enough (to envoke atmosphere that is)

just my Cr0.02 worth



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 04:16:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Background Music

Steinar Knutsen writes:
>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was great
>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>for.)

Yeah, the _Blade Runner_ soundtrack is the best. The only other Vangelis
album I've liked is _Opera Sauvage_, there's good stuff on that (one piece
of which was used by Peter Weir in _The Year of Living Dangerously_. And
that's a pretty nice soundtrack too, mostly Maurice Jarre, with some Indo
gamelan.)

Soundtrack music is the way to go. For mood music and especially for
futurismo global-cultural flavour (as opposed to the obvious sci-fi movie
stuff), I'd suggest:

_Passion_, Peter Gabriel's excellent soundtrack to _The Last Temptation_.

_Musst Musst_ and other disks by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Pakistan's top
Qawwali singer, and among the most incredible voices in the world.

_The Akira Symphonic Suite_ - one of the best movie soundtracks I've ever
heard. Utterly unlike anything else.

_My Life in the Bush of Ghosts_ by David Byrne and Brian Eno. Deeply
strange music unlike anything done by anybody since 1982. One or two tracks
showed up in the movie _Wall Street_.

_Birdy_, the soundtrack by Peter Gabriel, mostly instrumental reworkings of
themes and rhythms from _Security_ and his previous eponymous records.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope this helps.

Glenn

PS: I don't suppose anybody out there has a copy of the "Off-World Records"
_Blade Runner_ bootleg CD? If so, please do e-mail me - I would gladly pay
for a good tape of it :)

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 04:43:18 -0700
Subject: Ken's Task Fix Prototype!

PART ONE:  KEN'S TASK FIX PROTOTYPE

OK, everyone, here it is! 

I've been pretty quiet for some days now because I have been using most of my free time 
(except for Sunday when we had one hell of a paint ball game) working on this task 
problem with T4.  I think that I have come up with a system that most of us will like.

I'm ready to throw it out there on the TML, have all of you tear it to shreds, and then 
pick up the pieces and head back to the laboratory to perfect it.  If anyone can find 
the bugs in something, it is all of you.

Back on Wed, Oct. 9th, I posted some goals for this project.  I am excited to say that I 
think that I accomplished most of them.

To reiterate, the ten goals were:



1.  Design a new system that involved minimal steps to fix the T4 system (minimal math, 
use D6 dice, designed to resemble the T4 system, etc).

	Accomplished this goal.



2.  Goal 2 was to either alter the target number or alter the difficulty system, but not 
both.  The idea here was to keep the changes to the T4 system to a minimum in accordance 
with goal 1.  

	Well, I'll have to give myself only a 50% success rate on this goal.  I ended up 
altering the difficulty system, but I also changed how the target number is arrived at.
	For those who just want a quick (super quick) fix to the T4 system, they can 
continue to calculate target numbers as detailed in the T4 main book (i.e. Add attribute 
to skill level for target number).  This new difficulty system will work fine with these 
target numbers AND impossible tasks are much harder to hit (rolling the impossible is 
what started this project).
	See the notes in goal 4 for why I changed the target number calculation as well.

	For all of you who hate the D3s, sorry.  They are a necessary evil when dealing 
with the curves produced by multiple D6 dice, but I have made an effort to keep them to 
a minimum.  Only Easy and Difficult difficulty levels are affected by the D3s--and Easy 
is usually automatic anyway.  50% of goal accomplished.



3.  Focus on changing the target number instead of the difficulty system.

	I'd say I accomplished this too (which is done in the new target number 
calculation), but I found, upon further investigation of the problem, that I had to 
focus somewhat on the difficulty system as well.  Goal accomplished.



4.  Decrease the importance of abilities but still make them a major modifier to a 
character's skill level.  Test the "I've got Dex 10 and Pilot-1, and you've only got Dex 
4 and Pilot-6, so I should pilot the ship" syndrome.  The pilot-6 character should have 
a better chance of success.

	The new target number calculation accomplishes this goal.



5.  Skill level should be the biggest component of the target number i.e. it should be 
weighter more than other components of the target number.

	The new target number calculation accomplishes this goal.


6.  Figure a way to include apptitude in the target number.  Dexterity is used for many 
skills, and it is not realistic that the attribute will effect all skills in the same 
way.  For instance, Dex covers picking a lock (intrusion), flying a ship (piloting), 
firing a weapon (gun combat), or lobbing a grenade (throwing).  Apptitude will weight 
Dexterity differently with respect to each of the applications.

	The new target number calculation accomplishes this goal.



7.  The task system should be better than the one used in MT (which is already a good 
system).  "Better" is qualified as meaning:

	Easier to use than MT (the new target number calculation is as simple as 	
T4--just precalculate target numbers for each skill a character has and record 	these on 
the character's sheet.  A player need only to referr to his sheet to 	see his target 
number and then roll dice.  This cuts out adding the modifiers 		from skill and 
ability in the MT system.)  Goal accomplished.  

	Provide better probabilities.  (The new task system does provide them.)  Goal 	
accomplished.

	Make characteristics more important to the throw--add more than just a +1, +2, 	
	or +3 to the throw.  (The new task system does this.)  Goal accomplished.



8.  An eye is kept on the harder difficulty levels--especially the impossible throws--to 
ensure that the probabilities do not become unrealistic.

	The new task system does this.  If you use the T4 method for target number 
calculation, you will have more "heroic" characters able to make task rolls more easily. 
 If you use the new target number calculation, you will have more realistic characters 
and task probabilities.  Goal accomplished.



9.  Check all work against the sample character provided in the original post on goals.

	Mr. Harrisani stacks up well with the new system.  Some of you may remember that 
I was irritated with the T4 system because this character could make an impossible throw 
44% of the time with only a computer-4 skill and Int of 9.  In the new system, this same 
character can make the impossible throw only 6% of the time, and his target number is 
reduced from 13 to 11.  I'd say goal accomplished.



10.  The low end of the scale should be watched to make sure that it is not too 
unrealistic (read low and unplayable) for a character's many level-1 skills.

	Again, goal accomplished.



So, after reading all of this, I bet you are eager to see this new system.  Well, I'm 
going to have to keep you in suspense for another day or so since it is almost 4:00 AM. 
 I'll try to post part two of this tomorrow--with the system--so that all of you can 
take a look and tell me what you think.

Good night all, 

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

The Scout uniforms in DGP's WDH makes sense.  They are TL 14/15 tailored
Vacc suits.  With an inflatable helmet and a pair of gloves folded in a
pocket, all you need do is wear a small life support belt (or simply be
really fast) to get to a PLSS and put it on.  That combined with the fact
that tailored vacc suits are better armor than Combat Environment Suits
gives them my vote for potentially dangerous scouting missions. 

I agree Scouts are often rebels, but they are also survival-oriented rebels.
Of course, the concept of a dress uniform would likely be laughed at by 
the vast majority of scouts.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:09:11 +0100
Subject: Re: Background music

>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was great
>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>for.)
>--
>Steinar Knutsen

This thread should probably not go on for too long but:
Pink Floyd Ummagumma (esp "Set the control for the heart of the sun" and
"Astronomy Domine")
Empire Strikes back soundtrack (I use Imperial march as the official
Imperial hymn)
else is up to the mood of the campaign.
I also play a lot of Hawkwind from 70s as my players include Vargr and are
slightly counterculture (ie drugs, tatoos, traficking in artifacts etc)


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:10:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Marc Miller wrote:

>In a message dated 96-10-14 14:03:05 EDT, you write:
><< And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
 >explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
 >ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...
 
> -Rob >>

>If we continue along that line of thought, then Grandfather's manipulations
>over the last 300,000 years assume even greater meaning.

>Marc

Well, that would certainly explain how Grandfather knew which races would
become major races (ie the ones who he put on the coyns). 

He just planted jump drive relics in each race's solar system and waited.
If we follow this further, then one of his agents must have exposed the
use of this same ploy by the Geonee. 

Of course, if the Aslan actually got jump drive from a crippled Solomani
ship this argument falls apart, unless we assume that Grandfather made the
Solomani ship misjump (possibly because the Aslan looked like they might
destroy themselves before they found the relic he planted. 

Great, we're working out a Traveller version of Foucoult's Pendulum...


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com




------------------------------

From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 05:19:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #544

Greetings:

Anybody out there getting cut off Digests? 542 showed up with three 
messages (listed in the TOC) missing, 543 had about 3/4 of the digest 
missing!

Ooohhheeeeeeaaaaaaoooooo (mysterious music always heard in bad horror 
movies inserted here...)

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.com)

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:25:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Niven

>Better re-read Neutron Star. The ship was most definitely armed. Bey
>was planning on stealing it and running off the sell it to someone like
>the Free Wunderland people.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

The ship had a laser that could 'blow a hole in a small moon' => definately
armed.


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 05:53:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Background music

At 12:59 AM 10/15/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was great
>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>for.)

Hmm... It kind of depends on mood I'm trying to set, but Hoist, "The
Planets"; "Star Wars" sound track; "Predator" sound track; "Battlefield
Band"; "Nine Inch Nails"; "Descent II" sound track" and the list goes on and
on.  <grin>


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:06:02 -0700
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

At 01:57 AM 10/15/96 -0700, you wrote:

>I agree Scouts are often rebels, but they are also survival-oriented rebels.
>Of course, the concept of a dress uniform would likely be laughed at by 
>the vast majority of scouts.

The IISS in my gaming world are rebels, criminals, the truly dedicated and
other eccentrics.  However, they take quite a bit of pride in their service
and wear a jet black uniform when attending official duties or any other
time it suites their needs.  As for a dress uniform, I'm sure they drag out
their Sunday best when they have to interact with other services or are
attending state occasions.  Speaking of which, does anyone else miss the
decoration system in "Mercenary" and "High Guard?"  I always loved getting
"The Star Burst for Extreme Heroism."


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:14:04 -0500
Subject: Agenda?!?!?!?

>From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
<<<<....snippage....>>>>
>
>Alrighty then; what's next on the agenda?

<SARCASM>

What,  How dare you insinuate that we are here for a purpose!!!

This must be some evil Zhodani plot to change the very way we think!

Please, Please, Everyone Calm Down, There Is No Agenda, We Have No Real
Purpose For Being Here Or For This Meeting!!

The Zhodani conspiritors have been captured and will be brought to justice
for this blatant attempt to bring structure and order to this meeting by
insinuating we have an agenda.

</SARCASM>

Seriously, though, you might need to go wash your mouth out with soap!

:)


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:15:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, athol-brose wrote:

> No, noone could come along and use it. According to Imperium's own web
> page, the ONLY thing you have to do is acknowledge FFE's registered
> trademark -- Traveller. That's fine.

Okay.  Let's not argue about it.  I'm just relaying what Ken Whitman said 
to me.  I asked him what the official policy was regarding new rules, 
equipment, deck plans, etc. for Traveller which were posted to UseNET, 
TML, and/or a web site.  And he told me exactly what is in the FAQ.

However, if you believe otherwise, there's no use arguing about it.

Regards,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:34:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:

> Joe Walsh reports IG's copyright policy: 
> >Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
> >the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
> >
> >A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
> >Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
> >with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, though.
> 
> Man, I sure hope this is some sort of misunderstanding.

Jim,

I was asked to clarify IG's official copyright policy, so I put that in 
my notes and asked Ken that question, along with many others, yesterday.  
Here is the fragment of our conversation that relates to this issue:


Joe: "What is IG's copyright policy vis a vis TML/Web/UseNET-published 
materials for traveller, regarding: 1) original works, and 2) copyrighted 
works."

Ken:  "What do you mean by original works?"

Joe:  "Stuff that people make up on their own, like new equipment, new 
rules, etc."

Ken:  "Well, as long as they put 'Traveller is a registered trademark of 
FarFuture Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996' in there, there's no problem."

Joe:  "So that means that, technically, all such works are the property 
of FFE...?"

Ken:  "Yeah.  We've been lax in our enforcement of this requirement, but 
we really have to be more careful.  FFE could lose its Trademark.  But, 
we don't want to anger the fans."

Joe:  "It's a thorny issue.  So, what about copied works - copies of GDW 
or IG published works, such as deck plans, and...."

Ken:  "They'll have to get a Letter of Permission from FarFuture 
Enterprises.  Marc owns the copyrights on all that stuff."

...

That's it.  That's where I got my information.  Maybe Ken didn't 
understand what I meant, but his answer seemed to indicate what I said.

Now, though, you can decide for yourself. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Trademark and Copyright

I was trying to stay out of this, but:

>PS: I personally doubt it that FFE/IG would publish someone's work
>without at least asking permission. (My personal opinion, mind you.) But,
>legally, yes, you are correct - anything with the Traveller name on it
>is either MM's property, or he has licensed it to be made.

Right.  That does not, however, mean that FFE has the right to publish any
work they have licensed without the author's consent.  It means that they
can keep people from publishing stuff, but it does *not* mean that they
themselves have the right to publish that same stuff.  For that, they'll
need a specific agreement with the author (probably as part of the
licensing agreement, but it will need to be explicit in any case).

Ask yourself:  "Why doesn't FFE have the right to republish DGP material?"

Answer:  because that material is the property of DGP.  DGP can't publish
it without FFE's consent, as it references FFE *trademarks*.  FFE,
however, can't publish it without DGP's consent, as DGP holds *copyright*
on the text.

[Legal digression:  Author A writes and publishes a book.  B likes the
 book -- so much that he writes another book, using the same characters,
 some of the plot elements, and large direct quotes.  A goes to court, and
 B is busted for violating A's copyright.  A then says "Why work?  I'll
 just steal B's book; after all, he ripped me off."  B can then sue A for
 copyright infringement, and may well win, provided A used parts of B's
 book which were original to B.]

(ObDisclaimer:  I am not an attorney.  The preceding is not legal advice.)

(ObTraveller:  Under Vilani intellectual property law, the answer may
 differ.  But it won't have changed since the Ziru Sirka.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:53:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Copyright/TM policy

Oh, and here's more of that conversation, before I forget:

Ken:  "But there's a way around that.  As long as they don't say it is 
'For Use with Traveller,' or 'Approved for Use with Traveller,' but 
instead say, 'For use with science fiction RPG's' they don't have to put 
the Trademark notice or the copyright notice."

So, again, I wasn't flying solo on those two Q's in the FAQ.  That's 
straight from Ken to you.

But, my personal opinion is that there's nothing to get excited about.  I 
personally don't see IG publishing people's stuff without their 
permission, or stepping in and shutting people's web sites down.  That 
would be extremely bad P.R., and would almost certainly not be worth it.  

IG is here to make games, and that's what they're focused on, now more than 
ever.  And, heck, at least one of you has posted a message from Marc 
Miller granting permission to post certain copyrighted GDW materials on the 
Web.  I don't see them being tight about this.

Perhaps I shouldn't have asked that follow-up question about the work 
being technically FFE's property.  It's just that that was what Ken's 
inclusion of the copyright statement seemed to imply, and I wanted to 
clarify it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:14:22 -0700
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Chris Cox wrote:
> 
>Derek Stanley wrote a bunch of stuff regarding the Millennium Falcon 
>size where he concludes by saying:
> 
>>"I'd go with the 200' concept rather than the 80' concept.  Having been 
>>on a number of boats in that size range I'll tell you 80' in modern
>>standards doesn't make much of a cargo ship, plus there are large
>>sections of the Falcon which we never see..."
> 
>200'!, this would make the Falcon come out to around 900 dtons.  After a
>bit of digging around I see that "The Art of the Empire Strike Back" has
>the sound stage layout for the main hanger on Hoth.  Using the 
>measurements shown on this layout I calculate the length of the full 
>size Falcon mockup was just under 27 meters, that same size used by WEG. 
>Unfortunately, when I calculated the displacement of the Millennium 
>Falcon to be around 150 to 200 dtons I assumed that my model was about 
>1/76 scale (making the Falcon 35 meters long).  However, since the ship 
>is only 27 meter long the ship's displacement should be around 70 to 100 
>dtons.  This really doesn't make for much of a cargo ship, but it does 
>fit on a sound stage. (BTW, at 27 meters long make the model of the 
>Falcon about 1/60 scale, a great fit for those Grenadier Star Wars 
>minis)

Unfortunately if we assume the 60m 200' model interior details are right, 
the cockpit is 16' across, at 27m the cockpit is only 8 feet across...  
That's a really tight squeeze...  With my measurements the secret 
compartments in the floor are 2x1m or 6'x3', with a 27m ship those 
compartments become roughly 1x0.5m or 3'x1.5'.  I'm starting to get the 
feeling that the M. Falcon is rather like Dr. Who's Tardas...  Bigger on 
the inside than it is on the outside.  The thing we have to remember with 
my 200' or 60m measurement is that roughly 16m or 50' is wasted space, 
the front forks, and the aft 2.5 meters or 8' is that flap that hangs 
over the top and bottom of the engines.

Hummmmm....  There's definitely something weird here...

For the blueprints I'm using, the only blue print's that I've found that 
make sence of all the interior details found in the movies, see the 
"StarWars, Technical Journal of the Planet Tatooine, Vol 1."  I beleive 
that this has been republished in a hard cover format covering all 3 of 
the original magazines...

Derek Stanley

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #557
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 15 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 558

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Trademark and Copyright
         2. FAQ Errata?
         3. More on the Copyright Issue.
         4. 3,2,1...0
         5. Background Music
         6. Traveller Hardbacks Update
         7. Re: 3,2,1...0
         8. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
         9. Re: M. Falcon
        10. A suggestion
        11. Re: Cthulhu and Human Superiority
        12. Re: Background music
        13. Re: DGP Announcement
        14. Re: A suggestion
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #544
        16. Re:  Background music (long-ish)
        17. Re: A suggestion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:38:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Trademark and Copyright

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Joseph M. Saul wrote:

> 
> I was trying to stay out of this, but:
> 
> >PS: I personally doubt it that FFE/IG would publish someone's work
> >without at least asking permission. (My personal opinion, mind you.) But,
> >legally, yes, you are correct - anything with the Traveller name on it
> >is either MM's property, or he has licensed it to be made.
> 
> Right.  That does not, however, mean that FFE has the right to publish any
> work they have licensed without the author's consent.  It means that they
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Precisely!  If FFE has licensed it, then it's a completely different 
matter.  As I said above, it's either MM's property OR it is licensed.  
There is no in-between.


> can keep people from publishing stuff, but it does *not* mean that they
> themselves have the right to publish that same stuff.  For that, they'll
> need a specific agreement with the author (probably as part of the
> licensing agreement, but it will need to be explicit in any case).

Perfectly correct.


> Ask yourself:  "Why doesn't FFE have the right to republish DGP material?"
> 
> Answer:  because that material is the property of DGP.  DGP can't publish
> it without FFE's consent, as it references FFE *trademarks*.  FFE,
> however, can't publish it without DGP's consent, as DGP holds *copyright*
> on the text.

Absolutely right again.


> [Legal digression:  Author A writes and publishes a book.  B likes the
>  book -- so much that he writes another book, using the same characters,
>  some of the plot elements, and large direct quotes.  A goes to court, and
>  B is busted for violating A's copyright.  A then says "Why work?  I'll
>  just steal B's book; after all, he ripped me off."  B can then sue A for
>  copyright infringement, and may well win, provided A used parts of B's
>  book which were original to B.]

Perfect again.


> (ObDisclaimer:  I am not an attorney.  The preceding is not legal advice.)

Nor am I an attorney, so the same disclaimer applies to me. :)  I'm just 
going by what I learned in the various business law classes I took... 
years ago, and what Ken said to me yesterday.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:42:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: FAQ Errata?

Here's a revised version of the controversial section of the FAQ.  
Perhaps this will clarify things.  Until I hear otherwise from Marc 
Miller, this is how I'll keep it.  (Changes are noted in all-caps).

- --------------

Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?

A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, 
though.  ALTERNATIVELY, IF YOU HAVE A LETTER OF PERMISSION FROM FFE, THE 
WORK WILL REMAIN YOUR OWN (ALTHOUGH YOU WILL STILL HAVE TO NOTE THE 
TRADEMARK).

- ---------------

I hope this helps,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:56:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More on the Copyright Issue.

Hi folks,

I sent a letter to Marc Miller asking the following question:

[snip]
Are you, however, giving a blanket Letter of Permission to publish original 
Traveller works on the Internet, so long as the TM notice is included?  
That is, if a person publishes a derivative work on the Internet, 
receives no money for doing so, and has the TM notice in the document, is 
that document legally theirs?
[snip]

- -----
I'll let you know what his response is, as soon as I get it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....




------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:57:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 3,2,1...0

Hi.

Matthew Mactyre wrote:

<<From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:45:31 -0700
 Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0
 [...]
 >> And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
 >> explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
 >> ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...
 >
 >I checked that and...you are right
 >
 >Great, the entire human race is minor 

 Hmm... Well, even if there were ancient sites in the solar system I still
 believe that we developed the jump drive independently.  Perhaps, finding
 those ancient sites led to the research making jump drives available but in
 my game the Solomani are still a major race.10 >>

The purpose of my post wasn't to denigrate the Solomani. Nor was it even
to
state that the Solomani did not invent j-drive. It was merely
to sow some seeds of doubt into the official history.

Traveller has a distinguished history of establishing stereotypes and
then demolishing them. To give a few examples:

1) The Zhodani Consulate is an evil, totalitarian state. Or not.

2) The Droyne are a peculiar, backwards race. Or they are the legendary
Ancients.

3) The Imperium is a monolithic structure maintained by the fealty of
its nobles. Or it's a frayed and shattered government fractured by
infighting.

4) The Aslan independently invented jump drive. Or they copied the
technology from Solomani traders.

In all of the above cases, there were clues in the form of oblique
references and data which were inconsistant which forshadowed these
earth-shattering revelations. This tradition has inspired me to wonder
about any oblique references and inconsistant data which I find buried
in the canon, and generate theories which may explain them. Since these
theories need to be tested, they make for great adventure seeds.

Whichever case turns out to be true, the /doubt/ forms a motive for
/research/, which can drive a very interesting adventure.

BTW, to the above list, some might add:

5) The labels "Major Race" and "Minor Race" are an objective way of
distinguishing the relative importance of a given species' contribution
to interstellar society. Or they are an arbitrary distinction designed
to justify oppression of the weak by the strong. Or they have some other
origin.

Point five has always interested me, by the way. The Vilani seem to have
invented the terms back when they were the only known major race. This
tool of oppression may have turned out to be a two edged sword when the
Terrans and Vargr appeared on the scene.

But then again the term "Six Races" appears independently in the
folklore of several different starfaring races, all of whom ostensibly
obtained starflight independently of one another. There's something
going on here...

Whatever the truth is, it's probably not what you'd expect.

Fact is stranger than fiction, but Traveller has always done what it
could to narrow that gap. 8^)

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:58:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Background Music

Hi.

>From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.unit.no>
>Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:59:23 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: Background music

>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
<snip>

Might I suggest Team Metlay's e-music CD's. Mike Metlay is a long time
Traveller player and contributer to JTAS and MT. His record company is
Atomic City (http://www.pd.net/atomic-city/). I haven't seen him in a
while, but perhaps Derek Wildstar (http://www.io.com/~wildstar/) or Mark
Cook knows how to get in touch with him?

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:01:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Traveller Hardbacks Update

I got an update on the shipment status of the T4 hardbacks, and I forgot 
to mention that yesterday.

Ken said there are still about 500 hardbacks to be shipped out.  They 
only have one person available to do the shipments - make the labels, 
package the books, and ship them out.  That is why it is taking so long.

All the books will be in the mail by the end of this week.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:47:18 -0800
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

"Well, I can tell you that I for 1 have NOT been genetically manipulated.  I'm not 
I tell you.  I mean, I'd know, after all."  Stu looks around the room nervously, 
wiping the sweat off of his third eyebrow, and wondering where he put the 
shotgun...

- -Stu
  
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
Traveller referee since 1978, Official USENet 
spokesperson for Imperium Games
- ---------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:40:09 -0400
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

In a message dated 96-10-15 02:22:19 EDT, you write:

<< In writing all this, of course, I'm operating on the possibly-erroneous
 assumption that Marc Miller isn't fixated on pulling a T$R. If he is, and
 this advice is unwelcome, then Marc/Joe/somebody... please let us know so
 that we can each make the personal decision about whether or not we, as
 individual Traveller-fans, are willing to put up with this sort of
 treatment. For myself, I have certain obligations to people who have
 contributed material to the next version of "Galactic", but after that,
 I can't really see myself staying involved with Traveller unless this new
 policy of IG's is substantially amended.
  >>


It is not (nor will it be) my intention that I (Marc Miller. Far Future) or
Imperium Games be able to steal your work. The purpose of the
acknowledgements is to protect the Traveller trademarks and copyrights.

Look at DGP (which is some of the best stuff done for Traveller). Their
copyright notices included acknowledgements of the Traveller trademarks and
copyrights. Some pieces say copyright GDW and DGP. Now in order to use the
material (since their original license has expired) they need permission. AND
I can use their material in the sense that I can refer to their materials
when I (or Imperium writes new stuff). Which makes sense, since otherwise,
their participation in the universe would be totally disallowed (ie. you
asked about the Geonee, they were in TD 11, so what was said there would now
be NOT true).

But no one (at FFE or IG) is going to come along and download your materials
and print it or publish it.

Marc

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:05:27 -0400
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Chris Cox writes:

>However, since the ship is only 27 meter long the ship's
>displacement should be around 70 to 100 dtons.  This 
>really doesn't make for much of a cargo ship, but it does 
>fit on a sound stage.

   I estimated the Falcon to be about 100 tons.  It is a cargo ship, but
there are a few things to remember.  First, interstellar/interplanetary
travel takes a hell of a lot less fuel in the Star Wars universe, so when you
take into account the percentage of a 200 ton far trader that is used for
fuel storage, there isn't as much of a difference.  Second, interstellar
travel takes less time in the Star Wars universe, so small cargo ships can be
smaller (they can make more runs in the same amount of time) than in the
Traveller universe.  Third, the Falcon was designed for the "small package
trade" (aka smuggling)--how many ships do you know that have secret cargo
bays that shield life signs, and have the ability to dump cargo in space at a
moment's notice?  Finally, the Falcon has been extensive modified--it looks
like a freighter, but can out perform most fighter craft.   

   It is possible the Falcon originally had the ability to attach large cargo
modules to its exterior to increase its cargo capacity (which would explain
the oversized engines), a capability that has since been sacrificed in favor
of higher performance for those *quick* getaways.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 16 Oct 96 02:07:15 +1000
Subject: A suggestion

     Ladies & Gents
     Much as I love being on the TML, I am being snowed under all the 
     messages you delightful people post. Meanwhile, the XBoat mailing list 
     is mouldering away unused. There seems to be very little discussion 
     that is *not* about T4. 
     
     It looks like there are two 'cables' of discussion (threads of 
     threads): 'technical' ie changes to rules, discussions of physics, 
     ballistics and the like; and 'scenario/character/historical' ie the 
     people/adventure stuff, like all the crap I post  ;]
     
     I don't mind the 'technical' stuff, but if I have to choose between 
     that and the people/adventure related discussion, I'll go past it. 
     
     Could we maybe shift one of these 'cables' onto XBoat so we spread the 
     load around? I don't much care which. 
     
     Alternatively I could ask again that people not quote large slabs of 
     past messages, but I know nobody would listen. 
     
     I'm open to suggestion (you are becoming drowsy...your eyelids are 
     heavy...)
     
     Michael 

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:56:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Human Superiority

Matthew Mactyre wrote:
> Speaking of which -- has anyone else ever imported Cthulhu mythos into their
> Traveller games?  The Mi-go have come a long way in the last few thousand
> years...  Ever heard of hand-held Meson weapons? <BG>

I ran a Traveller: the New Era in the Solomani Rim (I collapsed the sector personally) 
and the world of Altair is a large star asteroid belt (type A star)
I noticed an unusual number of asteroid belts with type A stars are Red Zones
So, I placed the Mi-Go there. The Mi-Go are actually a remnant of the Ancients War, 
they are a bio-weapon. They do not invade a la Aliens, but rather watch and learn, then 
devise the best method for overcoming a foe. They have access to some TL 18(!) stuff 
but their average tech is around 11. They are cunning but not very innovative. The 
danger to the PCs fledgling mini-empire (basically Sol subsector) was them ,  Virus 
(homeworld at Cymbeline) and a resurgent Vegan Region who have no desire to fight the 
Solomani again
All the Cthulhu stuff, like artifacts, books and such, are TL 18-20
The books are actually nanotech infested, you learn by touching the book and getting 
infected by the resulting nanneez (thanks to DGP and AI for the inspiration) Usually the 
book modifies the target and gives them a sort of pseudo-psionics
Humans usually are not the ones the nanneez were designed for, and generally results in 
skewed chemical imbalances in the mind (drives you insane)

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:53:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Background music

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Steinar Knutsen wrote:

> I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
> for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
> background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
> Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was grea=
t
> for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
> for.)

Two suggestions;=20

Depeche Mode, Violator or Music for the Masses
=09Heavy on the electronics and with a deep percussive beat, these
are a bit on the spooky side and pretty "futuristic" in style.  Some call
it "industrial pop".

Cibo Matto, (self named album)=20
=09This stuff is kinda bizarre techno-pop japanese music (they sing
in English).  Wierd percussion, bizarre lyrics ("I...weigh...three hundred
pounds..."), lots of electronics, but really a bit much for "background".

Pete


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:00:08 -0700
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

Dave Golden writes
>>P.S.:  Out of  curiosity, which  of DGP's  publications were your
>>absolute favorites?
>        That would have to be "Starship Operator's Manual" and the "World
>Builder's Handbook"
- -

A "Starship Operator's Manual" reprint should probably wait until we
have the Naval Architect's Handbook complete, and reflect some of the
new perceptions of how things work...(outer-solar-system thruster 
limit, grav focus lasers, etc.)

Bruce

------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:00:50 -0400
Subject: Re: A suggestion

>      It looks like there are two 'cables' of discussion (threads of 
>      threads): 'technical' ie changes to rules, discussions of physics, 
>      ballistics and the like; and 'scenario/character/historical' ie the 
>      people/adventure stuff, like all the crap I post  ;]
>      I don't mind the 'technical' stuff, but if I have to choose between 
>      that and the people/adventure related discussion, I'll go past it. 
>      Could we maybe shift one of these 'cables' onto XBoat so we spread
the 
>      load around? I don't much care which. 

I simply don't see the advantage to this. F'r'example, I'm not on XBoat,
and I'd probably resist joining another mailing list "just because". I'm on
enough of them already. I'm also interested in both history/stories/ideas
and rules as well as news from IG and things like that.

'Sides which, any attempt to split two halves of a discussion that *go
together anyways* is probably doomed to fail. It's why Usenet is such a
morass of crossposts in places; poorly thought-out splits of newsgroup
topics or compromise solutions that simply encourage crossposting.

And you would *still* get all the messages anyways... wouldn't you?

- -- 
r. n. dominick -- cinnamon@one.net

New on The Game Shelf: D6 review and D6: Wild West!
http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 18:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #544

In-Reply-To: <9610122030.AA24283@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: FarFuture@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #526

There is no way that we can detail 20,000 star systems. And I think that 
just leaving the UWPs to the computer provides information without 
substance. The concept I have is that we WILL detail several areas (the 
places mentioned in the Outline). By leaving large expanses blank 
(specifically within the territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it 
possible for your adventurers to particpate in defining the teritory. >>

What if they don't *want* to 'participate in defining the territory'? If 
I go to France, I don't want to have to create my own maps as I go 
along, I just want to go into a bookshop and pick one off the shelf.

We're not asking for full details on every world (anyway, I thought the 
3I was only 11,000 systems?) - in most cases, just a UWP will do. And I 
*like* random, computer-generated stats - often, they'll produce results 
that you'd throw out if you were doing it by hand. These weird results 
make you go, 'hey, how the hell did *that* happen?', and you have to 
figure out an interesting reason.

<< And as we define some specific worlds (like Spires), you get to 
decide where they are placed within a sector or group of sectors. >>

Huh? You mean you're going to write up worlds, but let the ref decide 
where to put them? BAD IDEA.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:11:07 -0500
Subject: Re:  Background music (long-ish)

>At 7:59 PM -0400 10/14/96, Steinar Knutsen wrote:
>>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
>>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
>>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
>>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was great
>>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
>>for.)

At Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:07:55 -0400, Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org> wrote:
>Well, I like Holst, or just about any John Williams score, but I tend to be
>looking for a more upbeat tone.  You might try some Nine Inch Nails, though.
>
>I almost always go with instrumentals since lyrics tend to distract the
>players, although sometimes I'll throw in hints about what's going on,
>either through lyrics or song titles.

At Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:40:03 -0400, "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net> wrote:
>Certain parts of the "Babylon 5" soundtrack (Christopher Franke) would do
>quite nicely, though some of the more melodramatic pieces you may wish to
>save for queues. Other Vangelis and early Jarre, Vollenweider's "Down to
>the Moon"... Lots of things to choose from.

My .02cr:

Specific comments to Steinar...  For moody (Gothic) and disturbing music
from my more general list of Background Music (which follows) I'd recommend
Bach - Toccata and Fugue in D minor, Carmina Burana - Carl Orff (see below
for more details), The "Black Rain Suite" from the soundtrack for Black
Rain, and Emerson, Lake & Powell - Emerson, Lake & Powell...

All of the previous suggestions are excellent.  I'd have to add that
virtually _any_ Andreas Vollenweider's works would be suitable for use as
background music.

- ------<Here is my general background music list:>------

Classical:

Bach - Toccata and Fugue in D minor
Carmina Burana - Carl Orff (Excellent for Gothic atmospheres, battle
scenes, etc.) Featured towards the end of the movie "Excalibur".
(LaserLight Digital # 14020 is an excellent version of this and well priced)

New Age-ish:

Mars Lasar - Eleventh Hour (Excellent battle/chase music)
Robert Miles - Dreamland (Excelent chase music)
Tour de France - John Tesh (There are others by Tesh but most are over played)

Heavy Synthesized Pop originals:

The Crazy World of Arthur Brown - The Crazy World of Arthur Brown
ELO - Time
Emerson, Lake & Powell - Emerson, Lake & Powell (A couple of good
instrumentals here including a synthed version of "Mars, the Bringer of
War", and the pop hit "Touch and Go")
War of the Worlds - Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of...  (Heavy on Vocals
but what a great album! - Ulla!)

Electric Guitar "Shredder's"

Joe Satriani - Surfing with the Alien, The Extremist
Gary Hoey - Animal Instinct, Music from the movie "Endless Summer II"
Marc Bonilla - American Matador, EE Ticket
Dick Dale (with and without his Del-Tones) - Best of, Tribal Thunder,
Unknown Territory

Synth-Updated Classical & Pop:

Apollo 100 - Apollo 100 (LaserLight Digital 15174)
Switched on Bach, Switched on Bach 2000, Switched on Brandenburgs Volumes 1
and 2 - W. Carlos

Soundtracks:

The Music of Cosmos - Various Artists
Blade Runner - Various Artists from the movie "Blade Runner"
Black Rain - Various Artists from the movie "Black Rain", Especally the
"Black Rain Suite"
Heavy Metal - Various Artists from the movie "Heavy Metal"
Speed - From the movie "Speed" (Also excellent for chases)
T1 & T2 - From the movies "Terminator and Terminator 2"
Mission Impossible - Various Artists From the movie "Mission Impossible"
The Best of James Bond 30th anniversary (Many of the title tracks are
obvious but On Her Majesty's Secret Service is excellent).

A couple of singles that are worth consideration but I'm not sure they are
worth a whole album (all have vocals...):

Voices - Russ Ballard
Children of the Sun - Billy Thorpe
After the Goldrush - Prelude <- Note: not Neil Young's version!
Ride Like The Wind - Saxon
Why Me? - Planet P Project

I would also highly recommend Russ Freeman & the Rippington's "Brave New
World" album.  This group is sort of a jazz/new age group that puts out
some very entertaining and unusual/exotic music that is quite suitable for
Trav.  Some vocals but mostly instrumentals.  Their other works are also
quite good.  There is a fair chance that you may have heard _some_ of this
groups work, in that many local Cable TV channels will play Rippington's as
background music on "The Weather Channel" during the local forecast
sections.

I'd also recommend considering various forms of "World Music"...  I was in
a Discovery Channel Store recently and they were playing some exotic music
that featured a Didgeridoo (Australian aborigine Instrument) with more
modern instruments.  I picked up the CD (Dr. Didg - Out of the woods) and
while after a while one tires of the Didgeridoo it's quite enjoyable.
Track 5 is excellent!

One can use foreign/exotic music to imply different "atmosphere" of
inhabitants actions, cultures, etc.  Perhaps Scandinavian music for one
world, Caribbean for the next, Chinese or Japanese for the next, Arabic for
the next, and so on...  Who knows, maybe the Sword World's are goofy about
Bagpipes (they probably are!).

As always my suggestions should be taken with a grain (block) of salt.  My
tastes are eclectic and eccentric.  If you can find a store that allows you
to preview a CD before buying it, patronize it!

- ------<End of general background music list:>------

Enjoy,

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:38:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: A suggestion

On 16 Oct 1996 Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>      Ladies & Gents
>      Much as I love being on the TML, I am being snowed under all the 
>      messages you delightful people post. Meanwhile, the XBoat mailing list 
>      is mouldering away unused. There seems to be very little discussion 
>      that is *not* about T4. 

Isn't it great? :)


>      It looks like there are two 'cables' of discussion (threads of 
>      threads): 'technical' ie changes to rules, discussions of physics, 
>      ballistics and the like; and 'scenario/character/historical' ie the 
>      people/adventure stuff, like all the crap I post  ;]

I like both kinds of crap, myself. :)


>      Could we maybe shift one of these 'cables' onto XBoat so we spread the 
>      load around? I don't much care which. 

Hmmmm.  I don't much care how the division is made, but I, too, would 
like to see Xboat become a viable discussion forum once again.


>      Alternatively I could ask again that people not quote large slabs of 
>      past messages, but I know nobody would listen. 

Yeah, I never do that. :P


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 15 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 559

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
         2. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
         3. IG's Copyright Stance
         4. Scout Uniforms
         5. Re: World Pop
         6. re: cut off digests 
         7. RE: Realistic Income Model Proposal
         8. Milieu 0 Outline Comments (Longish)
         9. Traveller and Full Thrust
        10. Re: M. Falcon
        11. Re: A few Questions/Comments
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530
        13. Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!
        14. Re: 3,2,1...0
        15. Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:42:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

> It is not (nor will it be) my intention that I (Marc Miller. Far Future) or
> Imperium Games be able to steal your work. The purpose of the
> acknowledgements is to protect the Traveller trademarks and copyrights.

I knew you guys weren't ogres. :)

Thanks for clarifying this, Marc.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:05:57 -0400
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

Preface: I am not a lawyer, but I do know a fair amount about copyright law.

Joe Walsh writes:

>> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT
paying
>> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of
this
>> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have
the
>> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
>> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?
>
>Not necessarily.  *FFE* could come along and use it.  You see, you are 
>building on AND REFERENCING a property of FarFuture Enterprises.  Without 
>FFE, you wouldn't HAVE a product/article/whatever. 

   Wrong.  Actually the correct interpretation goes something like this:  all
original work belongs to its creator, unless the creator gives up the rights
to it, in which case the rights (and thus the work) belong to the owner of
the rights.

   That is why if Imperium Games publishes your adventure in JTAS, they must
purchase it from you first, even though it is based upon Marc Miller's
copyrighted work.  If IG decided to go the route that Traveller Chronicle
went, the rights to the material are temporarily surrendered for the purposes
for publication.  After that, the copyright reverts back to the author. 

   If IG told you differently, they need to consult a copyright attorney.

>To get around this, you have to get a Letter of Permission from FFE, or 
>pay for a License.  

   This is true in cases where you are going to be using someone else's
copyrighted material on an ongoing basis, such as for a Web site, for a
magazine.

>Why?  Without enforcing those rules, FFE could LOSE it's Trademark and 
>Copyrights!  That's the way the law works.

   The law states that any *original* material you produce belongs to *you*
and that it is up to *you* to enforce the copyright.  THere have been cases
where the national government of a given country has helped copyright holders
in enforcing copyrights (such as the U.S. government's intervention on behalf
of software makers with the PRC regarding software piracy, but the government
(in the U.S. at least) is under no obligation to do so.

>Xerox has to VIROROUSLY pursue those who say their photocopiers
>"xerox."  Similar for Kimberly-Clark and their trademark "Kleenex."  

   Xerox won this case by the way, even though the word "xerox" has actually
come into common usage.

>Let's say FFE let people use the Traveller trademark, and produce 
>products (even not for sale) for free, and continue owning those 
>products.  Then let's say I come along and produce a product, say it is 
>for Traveller, and start selling it without paying FFE a license fee.  If 
>Marc hauled me into court over it, I could point to all the people he let 
>slide, and say that Traveller was no longer a Trademark, but rather it 
>was in the public domain - a generic name - because he let others use it 
>without paying a license fee.  I would almost certainly WIN, and be 
>allowed to sell my "Traveller" products without paying Marc.

   Actually it depends.  If the people using the Traveller name did so only
with permission, and then you did your bit without permission, he could still
sue you.

>In short, it doesn't mean IG and FFE/Marc Miller are jerks - they HAVE to 
>treat it that way if they want to retain their legal rights.

   Neither IG or FFE/Marc Miller has the right to claim any original work by
someone else, even if it is based on their copyrighted material, as their
own.  They *could* sue someone for using copyrighted material without
permission, but that is the extent to wish they can pursue it.

>Hope this clears it up.

   I'm afraid you may have instead created a firestorm.  Welcome to the wide,
wide world of Public Relations.  You may want to invest in a fireproof suit
in the near future....

>PS: I personally doubt it that FFE/IG would publish someone's work 
>without at least asking permission. (My personal opinion, mind you.)  But, 
>legally, yes, you are correct - anything with the Traveller name on it 
>is either MM's property, or he has licensed it to be made.  There  can 
>be no in-between, legally speaking.

   Not exactly.  Once again, Marc Miller retains the rights to the Traveller
name and any associated copyrighted material, *but* as stated previously, any
*original* work still belongs to the author, not to Marc Miller/FFE.  

   Of course to *publish* any work based on MM's copyrighted material
requires at least a letter of permission, something that this mail list has. 

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:32:47 -0400
Subject: IG's Copyright Stance

Repeat after me..."IMPERIUM GAMES IS NOT TSR...IMPERIUM GAMES IS NOT TSR..."

        Seriously, while IG I'm sure has no desire to make any of the fans
angry, they have to protect their copyrights. That is an unfortunate fact of
legal life. The disclaimer is a way to do that. While it TECHNICALLY means
that FFE owns anything we write that uses Traveller as it's basis (which is
fine with me, by the way), I'm sure they would not publish something without
at least giving credit. I don't write the stuff I've posted for money. If IG
likes my work and wants to ask me for something that they will pay me for,
that would be great, but that's not what I write the things I write for.
        If you really are concerned about making money from your Traveller
related materials, don't post them! IG isn't responsible for unsolicited
material. I thought (and I HOPE) that this forum and associated Web pages
are for the FREE discussion of Traveller and related subjects.
                                        Allen                               


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:47:13 -0500
Subject: Scout Uniforms

I like the TL 14/15 tailored vac suits too, but that dog just aint gonna
hunt in the early TL11/12 days of the Imperium.

How about 'duty' uniforms of cloth armor grade coveralls, with lots of
pockets & velcro.  Function before form is the rule here.  The farther out
you get from the Core sector, the less formal you get.

There would be some 'offical' dress uniform for use for 'offical' functions.
Nothing the class of the formal Navy uniforms though.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.micro.lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:05:39 -0400
Subject: Re: World Pop

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
> comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
> pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.
> 
> I don't buy this assertion.

[ Discussion concerning jobs, cost of living/real estate, immigration
  laws, and activities/culture ... ]

I've often assumed that the general population on densely populated but
less-hospitable worlds are poor. They likely cannot afford to move away
(at least not without leaving many family members behind), and if they
did go to a neighboring "richer" system would be starting out destitute
and perhaps fighting prejudices and worse. These people would probably
have shorter lifespans, which interestingly results in faster population
growth (as discussed during the Vilani/Solomani population thread).

Of course, each world is unique--if the planet has an abundance of some
valuable commodity (e.g., lanthanum), then perhaps everyone is very rich
but building their fortunes so they can retire early. :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /       Allentown, PA  18103-6209      O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 13:10 PDT
Subject: re: cut off digests 

>From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
>Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 05:19:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #544
>
>Greetings:
>
>Anybody out there getting cut off Digests? 542 showed up with three 

No, I haven't noticed thi
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:20:18 -0700
Subject: RE: Realistic Income Model Proposal

Boyd said ...

Hi, Mark, I printed out your post a while back and just now got around to 
looking at it.  I like it very much!  Very little of the bandwidth on TML 
actually has any useful stuff.  Thanks for the good stuff.  

Glad to contribute when I can. I've been busy for a few days so I have
a lot of mail to read.

Your example #3 is ripe for a bolshevik revolution!  Bill Labor cannot afford 
to live unless the he can get somebody to supplement his income

This is purposefully done. There is such a range of economic
distribution that I wanted to have the model reflect some small
bit of that range. It would be up to the referee to say what percentage of the population is at what social level and I, personally, would
never try to universalize T4 specific stuff like subsistence food
and lodging. Each of my planetary systems is hand-crafted.

Also, since you seem to enjoy being creative with obscure charts hidden away here and
there, take a peek in _Striker Rule Book 2, Advanced Rules_ on page 38 under the heading
_Military Spending_.  I dunno if this was ever reprinted in any other materials.

I do love all those "hidden" resources. I am in the process of
transcribing all of the ones I use into "Mark Ayers' Traveller":)


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 15 Oct 96 10:17:39 MS
Subject: Milieu 0 Outline Comments (Longish)

Sorry I did not comment earlier; I've been off on vacation.  My, what a lot of 
discussion this one has provoked on the TML!

>Introduction (and concept)
>History
>    1. Antecedents
>        a. The last decades of the Long Night
>        b. The continuing Long Night gradually falls to the Third Imperium

I would include some information about the Vilani Empire, the Rule of Man, and 
the position/history of Sylea in both of these organizations.  We know Sylea at 
some point was the capital of the Rule of Man; was it an important region in 
the Vilani Empire?  Was it even settled.  When the Rule of Man finally 
collapsed, was it because of some sort of disaster in Sylea?  A 
barbarian/warlord invasion?  Economic collapse?  What is different about Sylea 
now that allows it to form an empire, when it failed to maintain even a viale 
chunk of the Rule of Man?

>    2. Sylea2s Rise
>        a. Economic Pressures
>        b. 

I think b. would be societal pressures.  A number of writers have pointed out 
that people do not build empires with the goal of a higher standard of living 
(though that may be the motivating factor of the ruling group).  Some sort of 
societal pressure would be required to get the level of fanaticism necessary to 
build an empire.  In the past, this has been manifested as religion (The 
Crusades), shortage of natural resources (The Viking Expansion) or a mixture of 
these elements overlaid with patriotism (Manifest Destiny, The British Empire).

>    3. Establishment of the Third Imperium
>    4. Interactions and Conflicts
>       a. Short Wars
>       b. Diplomatic Campaigns
>       c. Contact Campaigns
>       d. Secret Agent Operations
>The Expansion Process
>    1. Exploration
>    2. Contact / ReContact
>    3. Trade Overtures
>    4. (alternative: Sabre Rattling)

Why is the expansion seemingly focussed away from Terra.  The Spinward Marches 
starts getting attention in the early 60s Imperial (per canon that may no 
longer be valid), but that region is much further away from Sylea than Terra, 
and according to that same canon Terra is not contacted and absorbed until 
several hundred years later.  Also, it seems likely that there will be  some 
sizable mini-empires out there; some may even be larger than Sylea/Third 
Imperium (but lower tech).  These would seem to be the most likely sources of 
"real" wars, as opposed to gunboat diplomacy raids, police actions and 
brushfire wars.

>The First Wave
>    1. The ever expanding territory between the first scouts and the formal
>border of the Third Imperium.
>    2. Opportunities
>        e. The Man Who Would Be King

Loved the story and loved the movie!  Peachy would be one of those PCs that GMs 
love; constantly getting the rest of the party in trouble.

>    3. Problems
> a. Local Conservative Resistance to change
> b. Vilani agents (of the remnants of the Bureaux) 
>
>Structure of Organizations
>1. Structure of the Sylean Federation
>2. Structure of the Third Imperium
>3. Structure of the Vilani Homeworlds
>4. The MegaCorporations
>5. Local Companies
>6. AAB Repositories

I realize this can be a touchy subject in RPGs, but how about some religious 
organizations?  They could be descended from familiar 1990s ones, or totally 
new and made up.

Also, with the "neo-feudalism" bent of the Third Imperium, how about some 
knightly orders (I would see these more like "Gentleman's Clubs" of 1880s 
England rather than some mindless Warhammer Fighting Order rubbish).

>Library Data
>1. Personalities
>  a. Cleon (Emperor)
>  b. Third Undersecretary of Interstellar Affairs (he gives assignments to
>adventurers)
>  c. Professor Aldin Zhunastu (he discovered Fusion Plus in the Zhunastu
>Labs)
>  d. Frank Repzinski XVII

A lot of people have been suggesting that Frank here should be somebody famous 
of the son of a famous man; I would be much more interested in seeing him as a 
typical adventurer of Solomani origin.  His umpty-great grandfather was a 
Commander in the Terran Confederation Navy who wound up becoming Assistant 
Cheif Administrator to a Sector.  Over the years, this became a minor noble 
position (a Barony, perhaps) which did not wear well through the Long Night.  
Frank is the third child of a fairly minor noble house, whith a great deal of 
pride in his family and their accomplishments, but little material wealth to 
show for this great history.   His inheritance was enough to get him half 
ownership of a Far Trader, but beyond that and a fairly small yearly stipend (
20,000 Cr) he is on his own.  What I would like to see is how he and his family 
deal with the universe around them, how the universe has shaped him and his 
family into what they are today, and what Frank's goals and outlook are.
  
All in all, this sounds really cool.  I'm am quite hyped about this, and am 
very anxious to see you final result.

Steve Charlton
Waiting Impatiently, 
but with Great Expectations
(And Several Other Novels)

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:44:06 -0500
Subject: Traveller and Full Thrust

Having been somewhat disappointed with previous Traveller spaceship
board/miniature starship games, I've started trying to convert Full Thrust
to Traveller ships. It's a very rough conversion, and I've had to divide it
into two distinct scales - battles with ships 1,250 Tons and under
(Kinunirs and below) and battles with ships 1,250 Tons and over (Kinunirs
and above).

So far, I've had to fudge on some of the technological issues, but I was
wondering if anybody else has tried to do this? (I don't want to reinvent
the wheel if I can already buy a new Michelin).

Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm looking forward to the new Traveller
starship boardgame, but need something in the meantime. And anyway, Full
Thrust looks like its a blast. We'll see.

Thanks in advance,

John Kovalic
muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com



********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************




------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:57:24 PST
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

In mail you write:

> I calculated the displacement of the Millennium Falcon to be around 150 to
> 200 dtons I assumed that my model was about 1/76 scale (making the Falcon
> 35 meters long).  However, since the ship is only 27 meter long the ship's
> displacement should be around 70 to 100 dtons.  This really doesn't make
> for much of a cargo ship, but it does fit on a sound stage. (BTW, at 27
> meters long make the model of the Falcon about 1/60 scale, a great fit for
> those Grenadier Star Wars minis)

*Critical* reality check: see how big the "bubble dome" of the cockpit
is (at the end of one of the forks). If you don't get something in the
vicinity of 3 meters (10 ft) you've blown it. 

27 meters seems kinda small.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:20:34 PST
Subject: Re: A few Questions/Comments

In mail you write:

> Did anyone notice these things about animals:
>         pouncers, trappers and sirens attck only if _they_ are
>	  surprised (careful, Johnny. Make sure that Mountain Lion
>	  knows you are here or he will rip you apart for scaring him.
>	  Animals in the T4 universe need some valium)

Sounds like reality to me. *Standard* instructions to people in areas
where they might encounter bears or cougars is to make *lots* of noise,
so that you don't startle them. 

Remember, when startled *prey* flees. *Predators* attack. This is the
way it works in real life!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:54:26 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

In mail you write:

>> At this time the Imperium has just rediscovered Jump-3 drive
>> technology, and Jump-2 is 'bleeding edge tech' for the rest of the
>> TL-11 universe (probably reserved for military ships).  Your average
>> trader is going to have a Jump-1 drive--it makes getting to those
>> 'unnamed' worlds very hard.  It's been mentioned before that this is
>> the 'Official' map.  This is what the Imperium has released for it's
>> general navigation charts.  The worlds not listed might be Red Zones
>> (that's if we had a TAS to call it that in year 0) for various
>> reasons.

> 1. The Sylean Federation has been wandering around for what, centuries? 
> There will be info on those worlds. There are probably still records 
> from the Rule of Man.

With J1 drives, getting there would be a *major* undertaking. How many
ships are equipped to make *4* jumps? I say four, because until you've
been there, you don't know if you can refuel there.

So instead you need to establish (and be able to find again!) a fuel
dump halfway. That only takes a ship that can make *two* jumps and
carry some cargo (fuel bladders or the like).

Now it's true that there may be old records. But they are only adequate
for size, type and number of planets. Atmosphere and hydro are things
that *can* be affected by the "fall of civilization" and similar
events, even at thse tech levels.

Population, law level, gov type, tech level are all things that *will*
have changed over the centuries.

> 2. If, somehow, centuries of data has been lost or classified, pick up 
> an astronomy textbook. Chances are, it'll have full data on all stars 
> within, say, 50 parsecs. It may even tell you which ones have planetary 
> systems (gas giants, especially). A small amount of work with a radio 
> telescope will get you more info, including a TL-estimation (if they 
> have radio or not).

Where are you (as a private citizen) going to get time on a radio
telescope? They'll be rather busy with other tasks. And radio signals
detectable at several parsecs tend to be a limited lifetime phenomena.
Give us another 50 years and we are likely to be very quiet, simply
because fiber optics and the link work so much better for most uses,
and the remaining "broadcast" type applications are lower power.

Also, survivors of a "collapse" may leave behind records that make
people wary about announcing their presence to the universe.

> 3. If all else fails, spending an afternoon in a starport bar will find 
> at least one trader who's been there (or knows someone who has).

Don't count on it. Not if J2 is uncommon. Try finding someone who's
been to Palmyra atoll. That's difficult. Try finding someone whose been
to other parts of the Line Islands. That's *really* hard. There's
nothing there worth the trouble, and they are about as far off the
"trade lanes" as you can get. I had to dig *hard* to find data about
them. Yet they used to be a stop on the Pan Am "China Clipper" route.
That's why I could get info on Palmyra. That's where the airstrip was.
The rest of the chain is just a couple of maps. 

(I was researching it for gaming/fiction purposes)

> The *only* possibilities that make sense are: a) they're all barren, 
> inhospitable rocks, or b) the Imperial Navy is interdicting them and 
> destroying any ship that visits.

No, it's possible that they are low tech, and not worth trading with.
Or they are paranoid/antisocial and high enough tech to nail anybody
who disturbs them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:29:58 PST
Subject: Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!

In mail you write:

> Assume the 0.1 ton  missiles for a moment ... take a modest sized vessel,
> a Destroyer (3000 tons in Supplement #9) or a Fleet Escort (5000 tons).
> Assume half of the possible number of VLS launchers are installed ... 15
> for the Destroyer or 25 for the Escort. That means a standard Desron (8
> "DDGs") will have a one shot salvo of *90000* missiles (18000 if you
> assume 0.5 ton types). An Esron (8 Escorts) would have a one shot salvo of
> 150000 missiles (30000 0.5 ton types). I do not care what sort of fire
> control you have on your PD systems, this sort of initial salvo is
> effectively unstoppable if it is targetted effectively (i.e. against a
> relatively small number of ships, based on their fire control capacities)
> ... it simply overwhelms the PD Fire control no matter how good it is.

Congratulations. You've re-invented the "bombardment ships" used in the
Pacific during WWII. They were older carriers that couldn't handle the
modern aircarft. So they *covered* the flight deck with row after row
of "2lb" rockets. They could fire individual rows, or ripple-fire them.
They took out *everything* on the beach. 

> It gives light craft something that will make them useful in "line of
> battle" against the larger vessels that would simply brush them aside
> under normal circumstances. However, I would *not* see this as
> *necessarily* the way to go for larger vessels ... you need *some*
> capacity for closer ("gun") combat and for survivability that lighter
> craft simply cannot achieve. I do not see missiles as a guaranteed winner,
> but as a method of evening the odds ... one of tradeoffs. Sure, you
> *could* have a BB (500 kilotons) with a one shot salvo of almost 2
> *million* missiles, but only by foregoing conventional weapons ... and
> once the VLS systems are expended, they can only be reloaded by a fleet
> tender, so its a poor choice if sustained combat is expected. This is why
> I see it as something that light ships would use.

Heck, consider what happens if put *lots* of projectile weapons of some
sort on the hull. Sure, they take forever to get anywhere. On the other
hand, who needs sand if you have a couple hundred .50 cal machineguns
firing at an approaching missile? :-)

And to be silly, just how many shots *does* an 18" naval rifle get in a
30 minute turn? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:06:28 PST
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In mail you write:

> Alien Module Six, Solomani
> p 4. 
> The first use of jump drive was entirely within the Solar System. It
> enabled fast expeditions to the outer worlds and made possible
> several colonies in the outer worlds.  UNSCA did not realize that the
> drives had a great enough range to reach the stars.

And this blows the "you can't do microjumps" theory out of the water.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:03:42 PST
Subject: Re: RPG's and Fundamentalism(long & rantish) -Reply

In mail you write:

> David J. Golden wrote:
>> PS: Am I the only one who's getting screwed up mail lately from TML and
>> GDW-Beta? Stuff's coming in out of order, two or three copies of messages,
>> etc. It's really confusing reading a half-dozen replies to a message you
>> haven't seen yet (and won't, for another day!).
>
> I thought it was my mail reader, doing something silly I know the
> feeling, "in reference to your previous post", I just assumed that it
> was a private discussion that accidentally got sent to the wrong
> address

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Internet. This stuff is symptoms
of badly congested links. Expect it to get worse before it gets better.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #559
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 15 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 560

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 3,2,1...0
         2. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
         3. Re: 3,2,1...0
         4. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
         5. Re: World Pop
         6. You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
         7. Re: A look at the first 200 years of the Imperium - LONG
         8. Re: Milieu 0 Outline Comments (Longish)
         9. Re: Traveller and Full Thrust
        10. Re: Ken's Task Fix Update.
        11. Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530
        13. Re: A few Questions/Comments
        14. Re: 3,2,1...0
        15. Re: Problems with Starship Economics (long)
        16. Varient for Starship Purchase/Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:09:53 PST
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In mail you write:

> Jeff Cornish wrote:
>> Not necessarily.  When physicists first uncovered the principle of the
>> LASER, I'm sure they have no concept of it's use in everyday items, like
>> CD-ROMs, range finders, gyroscopes, anti-missile defenses, etc.
>
> But they still new what exactly it could do when they built one. 
> The phrase used in the book was something to the effect of they did
> not know what range it had. This seems to indicate either sloppy
> science, or it was something they really did not understand

Please note that there are *lots* of things discovered that get into
widespread use *before* the theory is developed. Superconductor theory
is *still* full of large holes. And it was just about non-existent
until 15-20 years ago, even though superconductors had been in use for
at least 20 years before that.

But the most likely problem is in the jump calcs. Given that you *can*
make micro-jumps *and* jumps of a parsec, there has to be something
that varies in a rather non-linear way.

One parsec is more than 200,000 AU. So the range varies over a
200,000:1 (or more). That's kinda extreme. I rather suspect that the
formulas that make it practical to calculate a microjump aren't at
*all* practical for a one parsec jump. And vice versa.

This is frequently the case in math (and phsyical effects described by
said math). The relationships may be straightforward, just next to
impossible to calculate properly. But there care often "shortcuts" that
give good results over a limited range of values. These are more easily
found by a sort of "trial and error" than by outright calculation.

Example, there *is* a general solution to the three-body problem (ie
how will three bodies of arbtrary mass, velocity and position move
under their mutual gravitational influence). Only trouble is, it
involves a converging series that converges *slowly*. So you have to
run thru the calcs a few million times for just the *first* digit of
the answer...

But there are several "special case" solutions. Like the Lagrange
points, in a system of a large body, a second body much smaller, and a
third body of so little mass it can be ignored. That gives you the L4 &
L5 "trojan points", the L1, L2, & L3 "sort of" stable points, etc.

So with the jump drive, theory may let you calcculate things exactlym
if you have a few hundred years of computer time. But tests made after
crude calculations let you get data that makes for easier calculations,
you just don't know *where* your approximation will break down. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:49:10 PST
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

In mail you write:

> Imperium Games FAQ                                        October 14, 1996
> Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
> the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
>
> A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
> Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
> with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, though.

Not unless you put "FarFuture Enterprises" after the "Copyright 1996".

The usual intent of a notice like this is twofold. By acknowledging the
trademark, you help them protect it. The copyright notice (with *your*
name) just establishes that it's a copyrighted work, and that folks
need permission to re-publish it, *especially* if they are going to
*alter* it. That helps protect Far Future's rights also, because it
keeps people from thinking that they can lift details out for their own
use (if it wasn't copyrighted, they could!)

BTW, you either use "copyright <year>", "<copyright symbol> <year>" or
"copyright <copyright symbol> <year>" with the copyright owner's name
following. The third form is considered rather silly. The copyright
symbol *must* be a complete circle around the c to be legally valid. So
"(c)" is a waste of time.

So would you please check and see whether Far Future is requiring that
there simply be a copyright notice, or that the copyright actually be
assigned to them.

I'm willing to bet it's the former, not the latter.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:02:09 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Moin Amused to Death,

> Great, the entire human race is minor

	of course it is ;-)

> The droyne did develop it (well, one of them did) (ie the ancient
> greeks were not influenced by the ancient greeks to quote the
> Principia Discordia)

	shure ? do you really think that these stupid chirpers are
	a major race. They are "manipulated".

> So when it comes down to it, the only major races are the little
> lizards and the horseys

	The lizards (Ith-Klur) got JD from the Hivers. And imho the
	Hivers are the only major race. Grandfather is just an other
	Hiver manipulation !

> What a blow for humanoid pride

	"Ich bin stolz ein Idiot zu sein" (replace Idiot with Solomani,
	Vilani, Deutscher, etc ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:48:46 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

Moin Jim Vassilakos,

> For myself, I have certain obligations to people who have contributed
> material to the next version of "Galactic", but after that, I can't
> really see myself staying involved with Traveller unless this new
> policy of IG's is substantially amended.

	The above sentence is (r) by FFE !

			----- PLEASE CUT HERE -----

Hy folks,

	I feel even worth about.  Normaly I own my work !

	I shall be free to sell it to somebody, or put it under GPL
	or an other well known licence. Its my work !

	If this interpretation of the "disclaimer" is right, it would
	be a kill argument for me agains this game. Oh its difficult
	to avoid this (r) word, to stay owner of my words.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:40:44 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: World Pop

Moin Robert Flammang,

> Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
> comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
> pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.

	If I look at the trade charts a pleasant planet is called
	rich :

	if ((atmos ~ "[68]") && (poplvl ~ "[678]") && (govlvl ~ "[4-9]")) {
		trade = trade "Ri "
		income *= 1.6
		}

	while a unpleasnt planet called industial :

	if ((atmos ~ "[23479]") && (poplvl >= 9)) {
		trade = trade "In "
		income *= 1.4
		}

	of cause there is no pleasant industrial planet, they all have
	tainted air !

By Michael

PS : I'm living in the rural, growing my own weed and other vegetables,
     I prefer a pleasant place with breathable air, but as I'm an anacist,
     living in overpopulated german, you cant call me rich ;-)
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:06:19 -0400
Subject: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

Despit what your spell checker tells you, you KNOW that Traveller is
spelled with Two 'L's

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:12:24 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: A look at the first 200 years of the Imperium - LONG

Moin Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au,

>      It looks like Imperial scouts and traders were in the Marches for 
>      about 100 years before anybody discovered the Darrians! Why is this 
>      so? The dates tell the story. 

	in reality the Zhos stoped the expansion, and changed peoples
	mind that other problems where the reason.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:18:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Milieu 0 Outline Comments (Longish)

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
> >    2. Sylea2s Rise
> >        a. Economic Pressures
> >        b.
> I think b. would be societal pressures.  A number of writers have pointed out
> that people do not build empires with the goal of a higher standard of living
> (though that may be the motivating factor of the ruling group).  Some sort of
> societal pressure would be required to get the level of fanaticism necessary to
> build an empire.  In the past, this has been manifested as religion (The
> Crusades), shortage of natural resources (The Viking Expansion) or a mixture of
> these elements overlaid with patriotism (Manifest Destiny, The British Empire).

I have always felt the reason was something along the lines of "well, we have inundated 
all available markets, anyone know of any new ones?"
Sylea had expanded as much as it could using loose trading alliances. PLus, their people 
were losing on copyrights. 
"I have an idea, let's go out and offer trade and a better standard of life, and a healthy 
profit for all, but in oreder to do that we need rules. And seeing as we are the best at this, 
we get to make the rules."
Intially, as the empire expands there would be immense profits from new markets for 
both sides. Then things start to settle, and the big players (the already multi-world Sylean 
corporations) begin to get into the market. Things stabilize and centralize. By this point 
everyone is interdependent, and the possibility of war drops (see Europe, post WWII)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:20:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller and Full Thrust

John Kovalic wrote:
> 
> Having been somewhat disappointed with previous Traveller spaceship
> board/miniature starship games, I've started trying to convert Full Thrust
> to Traveller ships. 

Try Greg Porter's SLAG
There is even a web site to help you convert Traveller stuff (don't have it right now, 
loaned to a friend)
Excellent DICELESS (but not clueless) space combat

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:02:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Ken's Task Fix Update.

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>      I really like the 10 "Foundations of Fixing the T4 Task System" that
> were just posted (another list-development from the 2 days (not a week, not
> a month, 2 days!) that I was gone-- this discussion's become Organized!) but
> I have a couple of comments to make:

Thanks for the good words, Trent.  I am very interested in coming up with a good task 
fix for the T4 system, and I am sure, that between all of us here on the TML, we'll be 
able to fix this thing.


> 1) For starters, I don't want to take credit away from whomever it was that
> first suggested the progressive whole-die difficulty scale, I was just
> repeating what someone else had suggested earlier when I mentioned it a few
> days back.

Oh, sorry about that.  I was referring to my printed sheet entitled "Trent's Task 
System" that had the 1-2-3-4...progression dice system, so, naturally, I thought it was 
your idea.  It gets so confusing on the TML when deciding who to give credit to since we 
all take each other's ideas and build upon them.

Maybe we should use the vilani system where the original inventor of a piece of 
technology retains all rights to the item in question even if someone else builds upon 
it...no, just kidding--that's un-American.


>    About the perceived weakness of this system (that it makes easy tasks
> too hard): I don't understand where you're coming from.  An "Average" task
> under T4 and in the "whole-die" system is 2D, so the difficulty should be
> exactly the same (disregarding changes in target-number determination).  I
> suppose you're objecting to the 3D vs 2.5D at "Difficult", but Joe Average
> with stat 7 skill 2 (target=9) will still succeed a little less than 50% of
> the time (soory I don't have an exact number handy), comparable to the MT
> system where the same character (DM +3, target 11+ on 2D) has ~35% chance of
> success.  Since I've been using the equivalent difficulty of tasks in MT as
> my base-line, this seems pretty good to me.

I've got to differ with you here Trent.  The 3D for the difficult difficulty category is 
what I was referring to.  If you use the T4 target number calculation by adding skill 
plus attribrute, you do get some low probabilities that are unrealistic and too harsh to 
play with.

For example, Dex 5 and Handguns-1:  Target number is 6.   Skill level-1 is, of course, 
the minimum training and experience that a person can get, but a Dex of 5 isn't that 
bad.  Difficulty of Difficult under your system only gives a 9% chance of success.  
Compare this to 17.6% under the 2.5 dice T4 system and MT's 27.7%.  Your system is 3 
times harder than MT and twice as hard as that proposed in T4.

Since the majority of a character's skills are either 1 or 2, and the average stat is 7, 
I have found the T4 difficulty system--with it's half die--a necessary evil.  After 
looking at the probabilities and the target numbers, I can see why IG decided to go with 
them in the first place.  They give us a flatter curve--giving the majority of a 
character's abilities a chance to succeed.  Under your system, there will be to many 
failures--making the game unfun for everyone involved.


 
> 2) My second concern is the bit about making the system "work" for characters
> with level-1 skills.  

See my comments above.



> In the experience with generating T4 characters so
> far (I've made about a half-dozen) I've found that each of them ends up
> with a few high-level skills (maybe a level-4, a couple of level-3s) several
> level-2 skills (3 or 4) and a bunch of level-1s (at least 6).  The way I
> see it, the high-level ones are the character's "specialty", and the lower
> level ones are things he's just dabbled in or has a little rudimentary
> knowledge of.  This isn't CT where you'll end up with your "Other"
> character who's got 4 skills at level-1 and nothing else.  T4 characters
> are designed to be much more versatile than their CT predecessors.  Rather
> than make the mistake (as in Books 4-7) of making multi-skilled characters
> much more powerful, I think we should subtly redefine exactly how much
> knowledge is contained in a skill "level".  I'd say that a level-1 CT skill
> should be worth a level 2-3 T4 skill (based on the time it takes to
> obtain the skills and the ability of the typical PC) and that L-1 T4 skills
> are really closer to CT "level 0".  

I have to disagree with you again.  I cannot see any evidence that skill levels are 
weighted any less than in CT.  Skill levels still max out at around 5-7, or so.  If you 
look at the medical skill in the T4 main book, you will see that it describes the 
various levels of medical skill just as it was done in CT and MT.  And, skills still 
improve the die throw by the same amount (granted the system has been changed each time, 
so this may not be a viable comparison).

True, a character has more skills in T4, but I think that was a sorely needed change--I 
think CT characters were too weak when generated under the 4 year method included in 
Book 1.  Characters generated with the Book 4-7 yearly method produced better, more 
rounded characters with a good amount of skills to start the game with.  I think the 
upgrading of skill awards (from 1 skill for every 4 years to 1 skill per year) through 
character generation in T4 is an attempt to make the 4 year method produce characters 
comparable to characters generated with the 1 year method.  I've compared characters 
generated under both systems, and they are very close.  I wouldn't be surprised (in 
fact, I'm hoping) that future T4 supplements will use the 1 year method again.  I really 
liked the detail in put into character generation.

Anyway, Trent.  Take a look at what I've posted on the new task fix and let me know what 
you think.  I believe that I've tweaked the T4 system--without over tweaking it--enough 
to provide a good fix that we can all use easily.

I'll see you on that thread,

Kenneth.


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:22:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Heck, consider what happens if put *lots* of projectile weapons of some
> sort on the hull. Sure, they take forever to get anywhere. On the other
> hand, who needs sand if you have a couple hundred .50 cal machineguns
> firing at an approaching missile? :-)

The general pref to kill missiles is 20mm (they are fast  moving targets with really good 
sloping on their armour

> And to be silly, just how many shots *does* an 18" naval rifle get in a 30 minute turn?

Don't know, but the New Jersey can fire each of her 16" guns once every 60-90 seconds 
with the aid of elevators

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:32:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Now it's true that there may be old records. But they are only adequate
> for size, type and number of planets. Atmosphere and hydro are things
> that *can* be affected by the "fall of civilization" and similar
> events, even at thse tech levels.

And then again these records are probably centuries out of date
Let us use a hypothetical Terran example, you are attempting to recontact the Aztecs after 
500 years. According to records they have a total population of around 20 million, a 
clean capital city of half a million people, a theocratic government and are at stone age 
tech level. (UPP 6DB-0) You show up today and there are almost one hundred million 
people,  the capital alone has around 18 million people, the government is a sort of 
democracy and a modern (or thereabouts) society (UPP 797-7)
Or worse, you go to visit the capital of the Roman Empire!

> > 2. If, somehow, centuries of data has been lost or classified, pick up
> > an astronomy textbook. Chances are, it'll have full data on all stars
> > within, say, 50 parsecs. It may even tell you which ones have planetary
> > systems (gas giants, especially). A small amount of work with a radio
> > telescope will get you more info, including a TL-estimation (if they
> > have radio or not).

We only know of three systems with gas giants (and that only because they are HUGE)

> Where are you (as a private citizen) going to get time on a radio
> telescope? They'll be rather busy with other tasks. And radio signals
> detectable at several parsecs tend to be a limited lifetime phenomena.
> Give us another 50 years and we are likely to be very quiet, simply
> because fiber optics and the link work so much better for most uses,
> and the remaining "broadcast" type applications are lower power.

Earth is  a major radio beacon but even we get drowned out by the galaxy. There is alot 
of background noise. Things like Terrestrial broadcasts most likely get lost in the hiss of 
the galaxy

> No, it's possible that they are low tech, and not worth trading with.
> Or they are paranoid/antisocial and high enough tech to nail anybody
> who disturbs them.

Like North Korea

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:35:22 +0000
Subject: Re: A few Questions/Comments

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Sounds like reality to me. *Standard* instructions to people in areas
> where they might encounter bears or cougars is to make *lots* of noise,
> so that you don't startle them.
> 
> Remember, when startled *prey* flees. *Predators* attack. This is the
> way it works in real life!

Actually, many herbivores will attack (rhino, hippo, elephant)

But my point was the way it was phrased, will attack if surprised. This means that as 
long as the prey makes lots of noise, they are safe

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:37:13 +0000
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > The first use of jump drive was entirely within the Solar System. It
> > enabled fast expeditions to the outer worlds and made possible
> > several colonies in the outer worlds.  UNSCA did not realize that the
> > drives had a great enough range to reach the stars.
> 
> And this blows the "you can't do microjumps" theory out of the water.

Yeah, but what if this gets removed from canon, he asked knowingly (sound of can of 
worms being opened)

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:28:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Problems with Starship Economics (long)

On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Phillip McGregor wrote:

> While writing an article on what you get in a High Passage (and Mid
> Passage) Cabin, I did some quick checking on Starship economics - and,
> guess what? The costs of running a starship and the traditional 1000 Cr
> per ton cost of shipping cargo do *not* work!
> 

(apologies if I send the attachment back %$&*#@ mailer)

This has *always* been the case with the smaller Traveller starships.  I
can remember my incredulity when I discovered, after picking up the CT
book *Merchant Prince* that a standard ship mortgage could *only* be paid
off through speculative buying.

To top this idea off, I think the published materials underestimate the
day to day costs of running a starship.  The following expenses are not
usually included as I recall (disclaimer: all published materials are at
home);

Food and drink for passengers and crew
Convoy Escort Fees
Tariffs, Duties, Taxes, and other government fees (avoided when smuggling)
Brokerage fees
Delivery charges
Loading/unloading charges (or, perhaps, heavy equipment rental)
Furniture, curtains, linens, little bars of soap, complimentary towels,
etc etc for passenger and crew staterooms
Plates, silverware, condiments, finger bowls, napkins, dishwashing liquid,
plumbing fixtures (where do they keep the drinking water?), all the stuff
found in kitchens and dining rooms
Oxygen, Nitrogen, Other chemicals for air or waste processing, Other
consumables besides the fuel itself, hookups while docked, septic tank
pumping, waste removal.
Insurance, Delivery bonds, Lawyers' fees, registration fees, inspection
fees, bank fees, ATM fees, etc. 

There's quite a bit to this starship economics thing that doesn't seem to
show up.

On the other hand, I thinkthat a huge profit should be possible taking
high demand materials to the right worlds.  More than is represented in
most rules systems I have seen.  

On the other other hand (I'm a hiver, did'nt I tell you?) this kind of
stuff can get in the way of Role Playing.

On the other other other hand (I've still got two to go after this) I have
used these types of methods to create the incentive for money making in
the past (especially when the ship in question gets impounded for
non-payment of Fee X).

I may have a need for this detail in the near future, if I do something
I'll try to post it.

Pete


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 96 15:15:10 -0500
Subject: Varient for Starship Purchase/Economics

On 10/12/96 at 12:11 PM,  "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
said:

>There *is* however, an elegant solution to the problem that doesn't
>require major tinkering ... it involves a modification to the Starship
>acquisition procedure that most PCs will follow ... that is, getting it as
>a roll on the Benefit table.

>If you delink the roll on the table and the age of the ship you get a
>better possible outcome. 

>Consider this. The biggest component in running a Starship is the Loan
>Repayment. This is 1/240th of the value each month for 480 months (40
>years). This means that a 38 year old Captain can have a 30 year old ship
>and *still* be paying 1/240th of the value of it - even tho we're told
>financing a second hand vessel is difficult - as if *he* bought it 30
>years before, at age 8. Obviously not on. Sorry, won't wash.

Not this way...do most people *really* do it this way?

>So, what I suggest is this. Each time a ship is rolled, it indicates that
>*somehow* the new owner has managed to acquire 1/4 (around 8 MCr) worth of
>*equity* in a *new* version of said ship ... and that Repayments are based
>on the *remainder*.

Uh...I guess it's been too long since I revisited my assumptions.  I
switched to something very much like this *way* back in CT days.  It hasn't
occurred to me to even *look* at the way the books say to handle this.

Phil, one thing you haven't noted is that in many games there will be
several players with 1 or more Ship benefits.  This came up in the very
first game of Traveller I ran in '77.  I had two players with a +1Merchant
and a third with a +2Scout, and I *obviously* didn't want to have 3 ships
running around.  <g> So I made a command decision on the spot, and I've
stuck with it for the last..gee it's almost 20 years!

Special Mustering Out Benefit rules:

Merchant Benefit - 6MCR banked toward the purchace/outfitting of a
                   ship.
                   
Scout Benefit    - 3MCR banked toward the purchace/outfitting of a
                   ship, OR the use of a 100 ton Scout/Courier.

TAS Benefit      - TAS membership OR 1MCR banked toward the
                   purchace/outfitting of a ship.
                   
(The banked credit can *only* be spent on the purchase/outfitting of a
ship.  Optionally, vary the amount a couple of million either way depending
on the kind of ship you want the players to end up with.)

After all the players in the group have mustered out they can pool their
banked credit and buy into any kind of ship they want..or can find.  The
players have to roleplay finding a ship, getting a loan for the remainder
of the ship's worth, and outfitting/upgrading the ship.

The players can look for an NPC ship owner (TAS, bars, classified ads, or
contacts) that might offer to take on the PC's as partners in exchange for
their banked millions.  They can deal with a
shipyard for the purchase or a new or refitted ship.  They can also deal
with "Shady Sid's Ships"..ie a Ship broker <g>..to find a "deal" on an
older ship.  There have been a couple of times when the PCs were *really*
lucky and ended up owning a ship free and clear.

As for how they got all that money...I let *them* figure it out and tell
me, if they have to know, but usually they just go with the flow.  

About used ships...  Most of the time the players will buy an *old* ship..a
"fix'er upper"..from a ship broker or an independent
shipyard.  I've also had the players "salvage/recover" a lost ship, to
which they are granted title for all or most of the purchase price.  The
players never get *new* ships..too expensive, or just not available, and
they know the used ships they end up with will have problems that end up
costing them their credits, they know me! <g>

Oh yes, Ship prices!  I use a 100 year lifetime model for the ships and 50
years for most of their equipment, and depreciate everything straight line
(1%/year for the ship and 2%/year for equipment).  I *know* that's not
especially realistic, but it's easy.  If you want more realism, use the
"rule of 78's" as your depreciation model to drop the worth of ships on a
more realistic curve.

I've found that this technique will get a group into a situation where they
can at least break even.  It's important not to make it *too* easy on them,
but their should be valid ecomonic reasons for them to want to be ship
owners, to haul freight,  and transport passengers.  <g> 

Oh, and in my games the *fixed* cargo/passage rates apply only to the
Established Trade Routes where the governments (Imperium, Federation,
local) provide some level of protection and service for commercial
shipping.  Everywhere else, the prices will be higher to reflect the
increased danger and costs of operation.

Discussion?

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #560
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 15 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 561

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)
         2. Possible Solution for Starship Economics Problems
         3. Re: Starship Economics Problems
         4. Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!
         5. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
         6. Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
         7. Re: 3,2,1...0
         8. Re: Marine Uniform
         9. Re: A suggestion
        10. Auction Update
        11. Re: A suggestion
        12. Re: Starship Economics Problems
        13. Re: IG Trademark Policy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:17:59 +1000
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

From: David Blustein <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
 
> On 11 Oct 96 at 9:00, Phillip McGregor wrote:
> 
> >Starship Economics - Some Problems
> >
> >Costs & Profits
> >
> >What are the actual costs involved in starship operations? Well, we
> >know that life support costs are 2000 Cr per stateroom per two
> >weeks (and the components - presumably including food - take no
> >space on the ship!), and that staterooms can be at least double
> >occupancy, and some sources imply that "hot bunking" can be used,
> >which implies that up to four people can be supported on a "per
> >stateroom" basis. This means that actual Life Support costs
> >(depending on what they actually represent) are 250-500 Cr per
> >person per week.
> 
> T4, Page 97: (Starship Economics/Life Support)
> 
> "...double occupancy... ...requires twice the normal cost."

Oops again, this wasn't (AFAIR) stated explicitly in any of the previous
iterations of Traveller! It *does* make things potentially a lot worse,
but all the figures I used were worked out on the basis of single
occupancy anyway. It just reduces the utility of double occupancy!


> This makes the situation even worse than you describe. :-)

> Other Comments: (which can be tossed in the bit sink if useless :-)
> 
> In CT & MT, High & Middle passengers get one Large Stateroom each
> for paying Cr10,000 or Cr8,000. If the intent of T4 is the same, then
> each passenger stateroom's profit is either Cr8,000 or Cr6,000 per
> two weeks, depending on whether 1 High, 1 Middle, or 0 passengers
> occupy it.
> 
> The other effect is that Life Support costs Cr2,000 per crew member
> per two weeks regardless of what sort of quarters they've been
> assigned. Two Small Staterooms take up the same tonnage of one Large
> Stateroom (and cost less to construct).

Erm, isn't that 2000 Cr *per fortnight* ... or 1000 credits per week per
crewmember?

I really think that we *have* to assume that the comment about Life
Support costs being *double* for two occupying the one statement is
*wrong* if there is to be any hope at all of making the starship economics
system work. At worst I would suggest that it should be no more than +50%
(or +1000 Cr per fortnight, 500 Cr per week).

Then we have to assume (I feel) that whatever Life Support actually
represents *cannot* be included in operating costs for crew quarters,
assume that it is, in fact, part of their salary package (like "room &
board"). Otherwise it opens a whole can of worms!
 
> I always thought that Double Occupancy _meant_ hot bunking, so one
> Large Stateroom would accommodate One Passenger, One Crew, or Two
> Crew and two Small Staterooms would accommodate Zero Passengers, Two
> Crew, or Four Crew (all in 4 tons of ship tonnage).

Actually, the reason I was doing the "research" was because I was writing
down some thoughts on exactly what sort of layout and facilities you could
expect in a standard Cabin when in use for High or Middle Passage ... and
I have some ideas of layout as a result. Suffice it to say that, if you
assume foldaway beds (like those in Pullman cabins on RRs), then there's
plenty of room for two!

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:11:29 +1000
Subject: Possible Solution for Starship Economics Problems

I just worked out the stats for a basic no-frills 1G, J1 1000 ton merchie
(no weapons, no refining), all cargo and no passenger capacity - leaves
757 tons of space for cargo, and the damn thing *still* can't run at less
than 72% and even "break even" at 1000 Cr per ton. To run and break even
at 60% capacity, it has to charge 1210 Cr per ton of cargo.

There *is* however, an elegant solution to the problem that doesn't
require major tinkering ... it involves a modification to the Starship
acquisition procedure that most PCs will follow ... that is, getting it as
a roll on the Benefit table.

Now, since the minimum time it takes to get such a result (a roll of 7,
which requires the +1 only available with an O5 rank or greater) is ten
years, it appears *on the face of it* reasonable to make the assumption
that Traveller has always made that the ship the character has is 10 years
old and was bought new as, as it states, financing is difficult to get for
older ships.

It is *possible* (tho unlikely) to roll the same benefit *three times* and
get what we have always been told is a 30 year old ship ... all at a
minimum age of 38!!!

OK. Do *you* know any bank in creation that will lend an 8 year old 32 MCr
(around 64 million US$ if previous hints are correct) on no collateral
other than the ship he buys with it? *I*, for one, don't ... but if *you*
do, lemme know where! I have this great little bizness proposition for
them!

If you delink the roll on the table and the age of the ship you get a
better possible outcome. 

Consider this. The biggest component in running a Starship is the Loan
Repayment. This is 1/240th of the value each month for 480 months (40
years). This means that a 38 year old Captain can have a 30 year old ship
and *still* be paying 1/240th of the value of it - even tho we're told
financing a second hand vessel is difficult - as if *he* bought it 30
years before, at age 8. Obviously not on. Sorry, won't wash.

So, what I suggest is this. Each time a ship is rolled, it indicates that
*somehow* the new owner has managed to acquire 1/4 (around 8 MCr) worth of
*equity* in a *new* version of said ship ... and that Repayments are based
on the *remainder*.

So, a Free Trader @ 30.75 MCr gained once would actually represent a
*loan* of only 23.0625 MCr ... and monthly repayments of only 96094 Cr
rather than 128125 Cr if the whole price was financed. This reduces the
monthly operational costs to 154094 Cr, rounding to around 170,000 Cr
(allowing a buffer for yearly maintenance and unforseen problems), or
30000 Cr less than it would otherwise cost in my previous calculations.

So, with 120 usable tons on the stock FT model the cost per commercially
usable ton is now 1417 Cr.

On a line item basis, this translates to -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo space = 20000 Cr income; 7085 Cr cost.
Profit = 12915 Cr.
1 Middle Passage in HP Cabin = 16000 Cr income; 5668 Cr cost. Profit =
10332 Cr.
1 Low Passage = 2000 Cr income; 1417 Cr cost. Profit = 583 Cr.
1 ton Cargo = 2000 Cr income; 1417 Cr cost. Profit = 583 Cr.

Can she operate profitably on a 50-60% loadout in each category?

High Passage x 6: Cost = 42510 per month. Running with three staterooms
occupied at all times produces 60k Cr, a profit of 17490 Cr.
Middle Passage x 6: Cost = 34008 Cr per month. Running with 3 staterooms
occupied at all times produces 48k Cr, a profit of 13992 Cr.
Low Passage x 20: Cost = 28340 Cr per month. Running with 12 Berths
occupied at all times produces 24k Cr, a loss of 4340 Cr per month. Actual
cost of Low Passage would have to be 1181 Cr.
Cargo x 76 tons: Cost = 107692 Cr per month. Running 60% full (46 tons)
produces 92k Cr, or a shortfall of 15692 Cr. Actual cost of Cargo should
be 1171 Cr per ton.

So, no she can't. However, if we assume that (somehow) the Captain gained
8 MCr equity in a 10 year old ship (worth 75% of its new cost), he
effectively has payments on only 15.375 MCr ... or monthly repayments of
only 64063 Cr, dropping operational expenses to around 135000 Cr, or a
cost per usable ton for a stock FT model of 1125 Cr per commercially
usable ton.

On a line item basis, this translates to -

1 High Passage Cabin + 1 ton Cargo space = 20000 Cr income; 5625 Cr cost.
Profit = 14375 Cr.
1 Middle Passage in HP Cabin = 16000 Cr income; 4500 Cr cost. Profit =
11500 Cr.
1 Low Passage = 2000 Cr income; 1125 Cr cost. Profit = 875 Cr.
1 ton Cargo = 2000 Cr income; 1125 Cr cost. Profit = 875 Cr.

Can she operate profitably on a 50-60% loadout in each category?

High Passage x 6: Cost = 33750 Cr per month. Running with three staterooms
occupied at all times produces 60k Cr, a profit of 26250 Cr.
Middle Passage x 6: Cost = 27k Cr per month. Running with 3 staterooms
occupied at all times produces 48k Cr, a profit of 21k Cr.
Low Passage x 20: Cost = 22500 Cr per month. Running with 12 Berths
occupied at all times produces 24k Cr, a *PROFIT* of 2500 Cr per month!
Cargo x 76 tons: Cost = 85500 Cr per month. Running 60% full (46 tons)
produces 92k Cr, or *PROFIT* of 6500 Cr.

Ergo, it *is* possible to run the ship at break even for around 60%
capacity *and* keep the "standard" 1000 Cr per ton cargo shipping cost!

So, the solution, each roll of "Starship" on a the Merchant Benefit Table
represents 8 MCr equity in a *new* starship, which may be increased to 16
MCr equity in an older starship (at 10 years of age added each time this
alternative is used). This would mean that a Captain who was quite lucky
could own a 20 year old stock FT *outright* after two rolls of "Starship"
on the table.

Assume that the incredible luck of rolling a "Starship" result three times
means that you can take a 10 year old ship that is owned *outright* ... or
a twenty year old one that has up to 8 MCr worth of improvements to it.

In this situation, there is *absolutely* no reason why you should have to
take a stock FT. There's no reason why the 8 MCr equity couldn't be used
to purchase a different vessel ... but adding an extra 8 MCr for age would
not necessarily make the vessel 10 years old, it would depend on the
actual cost of the vessel.

For example, 8 MCr equity could be used to buy a 1000 ton Free Trader (J1,
M1, no weapons or refining, worth 94 MCr. It would mean that the new
"owner" would only own around 3.4 years worth of it, or 6.8 years worth if
he takes the 16 MCr "age for equity" option. Payments would be based on
either a loan of 86 MCr or of 78 MCr depending.

Makes the whole system much more flexible without putting the players into
a deep financial hole!

Oh, and before you complain that its "unrealistic" for a character to have
amassed that sort of money in a potentially quite short time, well, even
the old rule was quite unrealistic if you take that as a criteria. All it
means is that the character probably speculated on his own behalf in the
starship he was employed on - and made a killing (probably a couple!)
along the way. Unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible!

And the huge advantage is that it makes the system work for PCs.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@nascrag.org>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 19:09:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

Phillip McGregor wrote:

>I really think that we *have* to assume that the comment [in T4] about Life
>Support costs being *double* for two occupying the one statement is
>*wrong* if there is to be any hope at all of making the starship economics
>system work. At worst I would suggest that it should be no more than +50%
>(or +1000 Cr per fortnight, 500 Cr per week).
>
>Then we have to assume (I feel) that whatever Life Support actually
>represents *cannot* be included in operating costs for crew quarters,
>assume that it is, in fact, part of their salary package (like "room &
>board"). Otherwise it opens a whole can of worms!

Hmmm. IIRC, the rule in CT is something like, "Each stateroom on a
starship, occupied or not, involves a constant overhead of Cr2000 per
trip made." [CT/B2:P6&14]

In MT this changed to "if occupied" along with an explicit statement
that double occupancy requires twice the normal cost. [MT/IE:P89/RM:P82]

I've always taken both to mean "per two weeks" since the expectation
is one jump and one week in port per fortnight.

A two person limit per stateroom makes sense when there _is_ a
provision that staterooms include all important life support
facilities.

The standard Traveller starship designs have always forced their
merchant owners to find clever ways to stay ahead of the bank.


The more interesting question to me is "What custom merchant ship
design can be created that would maximize profit given the economic 
model of trade in the Imperium, since the standard designs don't?"


Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:38:04 +1000
Subject: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!

> And my arguement does still hold.  Bigger missiles will be easier to
> hit than small ones under the following assumptions:
> 
> 1.  Sensor countermeasures possible on a missile don't increase with
> missile size faster than detecting them (due to their size)
> increases (I don't claim that BL models this perfectly, it might
> well need a tweak).
> 
> 2.  Bigger targets are easier to hit (I always seem to hit the
> arroyo wall behind the cans I shoot at, even if I miss the can :-)

OK, how about this. With the current "technology" available in Traveller,
a 100 ton Missile Bay contains 100 missiles ... if you assume CT 0.1 ton
missiles, thats 90% "waste" space (yes, I know it's reloading mechanism,
but we're also talking 30 minute turns here for a 100 kilo missile!); if
you assume 0.5 ton missiles, its better ... only 50% waste space.

Now, why not have VLS Box launchers ... *no* reloading mechanism.
Currently the naval versions can get close to 50% (the extra space is
because rocket exhaust has to be vented), however, in space versions, this
is not required ... a squib charge can be used to launch them from the box
and then the main motor (thruster plate or heplar, whatever) can kick in
at a suitable distance so the hull paint doesn't get too badly scorched.
Assume that it is more like a airborne rocket pod, and gets (say) 75%
usable space, or 750 0.1 CTrav missiles or 150 0.5 ton missiles.

Assume the 0.1 ton  missiles for a moment ... take a modest sized vessel,
a Destroyer (3000 tons in Supplement #9) or a Fleet Escort (5000 tons).
Assume half of the possible number of VLS launchers are installed ... 15
for the Destroyer or 25 for the Escort. That means a standard Desron (8
"DDGs") will have a one shot salvo of *90000* missiles (18000 if you
assume 0.5 ton types). An Esron (8 Escorts) would have a one shot salvo of
150000 missiles (30000 0.5 ton types). I do not care what sort of fire
control you have on your PD systems, this sort of initial salvo is
effectively unstoppable if it is targetted effectively (i.e. against a
relatively small number of ships, based on their fire control capacities)
... it simply overwhelms the PD Fire control no matter how good it is.

It gives light craft something that will make them useful in "line of
battle" against the larger vessels that would simply brush them aside
under normal circumstances. However, I would *not* see this as
*necessarily* the way to go for larger vessels ... you need *some*
capacity for closer ("gun") combat and for survivability that lighter
craft simply cannot achieve. I do not see missiles as a guaranteed winner,
but as a method of evening the odds ... one of tradeoffs. Sure, you
*could* have a BB (500 kilotons) with a one shot salvo of almost 2
*million* missiles, but only by foregoing conventional weapons ... and
once the VLS systems are expended, they can only be reloaded by a fleet
tender, so its a poor choice if sustained combat is expected. This is why
I see it as something that light ships would use.

> You're coming at this the wrong way.  In traveller, one missile
> *does not* kill a battleship.  We are tasked with making rules that,
> allowing for the existance of bigger, nastier missiles, still let
> the BB win out in the end.  If we right up rules that do otherwise,
> we have a cool game, but it isn't traveller.

Hmm, no, but 90000 might well do so ... and a Desron that can take out a
BB is a pretty good investment (a DN in Supplement 9 is worth around 180
DDs).

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:39:26 -0700
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

FarFuture@aol.com wrote:
> But no one (at FFE or IG) is going to come along and download your materials
> and print it or publish it.
> 
> Marc

Bravo! Marc.  This thread was getting out of control.

Kenneth.


------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:47:09 -0800
Subject: Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

At 18:06 15/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
>
>Despit what your spell checker tells you, you KNOW that Traveller is
>spelled with Two 'L's

Also....

- - despite what your spell checker says, you know Humaniti is spelt with an 'i'.
- - you let your car roll out of the driveway in netural, until your far
enough away to engage your drive
- - you name your cat 'Aslan' and your dog 'Vargr'
- - you trace your geneological background to find out if you've got any
Vilani blood in you.
- - you refer to the postman as an Xboat, and ask him if he needs to refuel
when he delivers mail.

:)

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:51:34 -0700
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net> said:

>Jeff Cornish wrote:
>> Not necessarily.  When physicists first uncovered the principle of the
>> LASER, I'm sure they have no concept of it's use in everyday items, like
>> CD-ROMs, range finders, gyroscopes, anti-missile defenses, etc.

>But they still new what exactly it could do when they built one. 
>The phrase used in the book was something to the effect of they did not
know >what 
>range it had. This seems to indicate either sloppy science, or it was
>something they really 
>did not understand

When the first atomic weapon was detonated, there was a serious question as
to wether the explosion would incinerate all the oxygen on Earth.  Really.
The knew the *theory* behind the bomb, but the practical application was an
unknown.. In a a similar vein, when Chuck Yaeger broke the sound barrier,
observers heard the sonic boom and assumed that the plane had exploded!  The
effect was perfectly logical, but no-one had tought to anticipate it.

The point I made earlier about the treatment of my cancer stands, we use
science we don't understand everday.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:51:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Marine Uniform

On 14 Oct 1996, Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) said: 

>>Marines: Dark red/Maroon jacket, white trousers, maroon beret, black boots.

>There was a good description of 1100-era Imperial uniforms in Travellers
>Digest #9.  This is pretty close, except that the Marines wore white helmets
>with gold visors.

Since these were honor guards, I imagine that the helmets were not the
standard dress uniform.  I used the beret since it has an association in
Solomani history with elite units.

>I painted some Star Wars Naval Troopers in these colours and they make great
>Imperial Marines in dress uniform.

I'm making the uniform for GenCon next year, can't wait to march up to IG's
table in full dress....


+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:55:26 -0700
Subject: Re: A suggestion

athol-brose wrote:
> I simply don't see the advantage to this. F'r'example, I'm not on XBoat,
> and I'd probably resist joining another mailing list "just because". I'm on
> enough of them already. I'm also interested in both history/stories/ideas
> and rules as well as news from IG and things like that.

I agree with this.  I like many aspects of the TML, and I don't want to have to 
subscribe to several lists to get in on all the discussions.  We get a lot of traffic on 
TML because Traveller is a happening game, and there are a lot of people out there who 
want to talk about it.

Nobody has time to wade through all of these messages, so do what I do (and I'm sure 
others do as well).  Check out the title of each post and delete it is not something 
that your are interested in.  I choose only a few threads to participate in.  

Make this list work for you--not be a burden.  You don't have to read and respond to 
every message.


> 'Sides which, any attempt to split two halves of a discussion that *go
> together anyways* is probably doomed to fail. It's why Usenet is such a
> morass of crossposts in places; poorly thought-out splits of newsgroup
> topics or compromise solutions that simply encourage crossposting.

I agree with this as well.  Take the "Hop, Skip, and Jump" thread that I started.  I got 
the answer that I was looking for and stopped participating in the thread, but there are 
still several others who are discussing the finer points of jumpspace.  The discussion 
has mutated onto different subjuects.  It would be a real hassel if the participants 
were forced to jump to another mail list just because the discussion turned in another 
direction.

Cheers,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Terri Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:55:34 -0400
Subject: Auction Update

The closing of the auction is tomorrow, the 16th of October.
Please notify me if I don't have your proper email adress.
All bids are to be emailed to me directly.

1.  Adventure 1: The Kinuir	5.00	stormhvn@inreach.com	
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril	5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	4.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague	7.00	sennafan@rust.net
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Interventio	7.00	sennafan@rust.net
6.  Book 8: Robots	20.00	balcom@dayton.net
7.Journal of the Travellers 'Aid Society No.5	16.00	sennafan@rust.net	
8.  JTAS No. 6	6.00	ewatters@queens-belfast.ac.uk
9.  JTAS No.7	4.00	robert.brennan@isocor.ie
10. JTAS No.7	4.00	anonymous1
11.  JTAS No.11	4.00	anonymous1	
12.  JTAS No. 12	5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan	8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani	26.00	anonymous1
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	8.00	sennafan@rust.net
16.  101 Vehicles	12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit	8.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com	
18.Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook	28.00	sdollar@goodnet.com	
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	9.00	anonymous1
20.  Far Traveller No. 1	8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
21.  High Passage No. 2 	17.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
22.  High Passage No. 3	22.00	dsmart@flash.net	
23.  High Passage No. 4	8.00	jlockett@io.com	
24.  High Passage No. 5	12.00	jlockett@io.com	
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.	10.00	goldendj@usa.net	
	
Recipents will be notifed by email as to total cost with shipping. 
Payments in US funds only please.  
Items paid for by money order wil be sent the next mail day.
Items paid for by check will be mailed as soon as the check clears the
bank.
Please reference your email address on your check or money order.

Thanks,
Nathan Mezel


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 19:09:00 -0700
Subject: Re: A suggestion

Joe Walsh wrote:
> >  There seems to be very little discussion that is *not* about T4.
> 
> Isn't it great? :)

Hallelujah!  Sing, Joe, sing it!

> >      It looks like there are two 'cables' of discussion (threads of
> >      threads): 'technical' ie changes to rules, discussions of physics,
> >      ballistics and the like; and 'scenario/character/historical' ie the
> >      people/adventure stuff, like all the crap I post  ;]
> 
> I like both kinds of crap, myself. :)


Yeah, let's hear it for the crap!  Let's have even MORE crap!



> >      Could we maybe shift one of these 'cables' onto XBoat so we spread the
> >      load around? I don't much care which.
> 
> Hmmmm.  I don't much care how the division is made, but I, too, would
> like to see Xboat become a viable discussion forum once again.

I think that we ought to combine it.  The Traveller Mailing List should discuss all 
things Traveller.

 
> >      Alternatively I could ask again that people not quote large slabs of
> >      past messages, but I know nobody would listen.
> 
> Yeah, I never do that. :P

Every time I do that, I get a nasty message from the from the e-mail police.  This 
seemed to work for me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:02:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

Leonard Erickson wrote [to me]:

>But the passengers are only there for *one* of those 2 weeks. So I'd
>say the cost is for *one* week.


Agreed! ;-)

Well, sort of. :-)

If one trip takes 6-8 days for one jump plus the time to travel from
the departure world to a jump point and from the jumpspace exit point
to the destination world, then the total time of one trip could be as
long as 9 days or as little as 6 days using the MT/IE travel time
tables.

Maybe the figure should be Cr145.86 per day per human-sized sophont 
on board. :-)

To take this to an extreme, maybe it should be Cr1.43 per kg of live 
creature per day -or- Cr0.06 per kg per hour!?

This would have the side effect of making passage for smaller races
more profitable... [he,he,he...] ... but it would fit with the fact
that smaller creatures would likely use less life support resources.

It would also make some ship captains happier to have the passengers
off board as soon as possible -- since time would be (literally) money!

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 16:30:12 -0500
Subject: Re: IG Trademark Policy

On 10/15/96 at 08:15 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Okay.  Let's not argue about it.  I'm just relaying what Ken Whitman said 
>to me.  I asked him what the official policy was regarding new rules, 
>equipment, deck plans, etc. for Traveller which were posted to UseNET, 
>TML, and/or a web site.  And he told me exactly what is in the FAQ.

I agree arguing won't do any good.  However, this is an important point
that should be cleared up.  A great deal of bad blood was brewed over the
actual and precieved polcies of TSR in this area.  I fully understand FFE
and IG's need to protect their rights, but there is a fine line to walk
here between protecting their rights and freezing out fan participation.
                                                       
YOU shouldn't try to state IG or FFE's policy in this area, because you
aren't offical.  Ken and Marc *need* to do it!

I *hope* their position will be somewhat more liberal and fan
friendly than certain other companies.  Either way, this is an issue that
won't go away, and will get ugly if it isn't dealt with.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #561
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 562

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 3,2,1...0
         2. Re: Traveller and Full Thrust
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530
         4. Re: M. Falcon
         5. Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
         6. Re: IG Trademark Policy
         7. IG's Web Site Updated
         8. Re: Travellet and Full Thrust
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #559
        10. Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
        11. Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
        12. IG Copyright Issue
        13. Re: CSC Info from Greg Porter
        14. Update #6: Odds & Ends Auction.
        15. Canadian Hardcovers
        16. TNE Sectors
        17. Unmapped Territory
        18. Re: Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)
        19. Re: TNE Sectors
        20. Jewish Sabbath in Space
        21. Re: Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details
        22. Major/minor races

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

Some other guy said/quoted:

> > The first use of jump drive was entirely within the Solar System. It
> > enabled fast expeditions to the outer worlds and made possible
> > several colonies in the outer worlds.  UNSCA did not realize that the
> > drives had a great enough range to reach the stars.
> 
> And this blows the "you can't do microjumps" theory out of the water.

When you consider how long some in-system transfers can take, then you 
positively NEED "microjumps."  Even with reactionless normal-space 
drives, it's a long, long way from here to Jupiter (and beyond).  If 
you've got the jump fuel to spend, a "microjump" is a better way to go.  In 
TNE, where you have limited reaction mass, many times it's the only way 
to go.

Sure, you're still dealing with the one-week travel time, but I've not 
seen anywhere (not even in the "Starship Operator's Manual") where the 
MINIMUM length of a jump is defined.  This brings up a nasty idea that 
one of the players in my campaign brought up:  Where does it say that you 
can't jump NOWHERE?  He wanted to give pursuers the idea that he'd given 
them the slip by jumping out-system, only to reappear a week later and 
continue whatever silliness had gotten him into trouble in the first place.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:47:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller and Full Thrust

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, John Kovalic wrote:

> So far, I've had to fudge on some of the technological issues, but I was
> wondering if anybody else has tried to do this? (I don't want to reinvent
> the wheel if I can already buy a new Michelin).

Dunno if it will be helpful, or if I perhaps misunderstand your question 
(gee, that'd be unusual for me[G]), but have you checked out the 
Role-Playing Ship Combat System at http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar or is 
that just not the type of stuff you are looking for?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:53:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> With J1 drives, getting there would be a *major* undertaking. How many
> ships are equipped to make *4* jumps? I say four, because until you've
> been there, you don't know if you can refuel there.
> 
> So instead you need to establish (and be able to find again!) a fuel
> dump halfway. That only takes a ship that can make *two* jumps and
> carry some cargo (fuel bladders or the like).
[snipped major stuff, all very good]

I love this stuff.  It's fun to develop true-to-life reasoning behind 
what IG has given us.  

I was thinking that perhaps some brave souls have ventured out to those 
"unknown" sections of space, perhaps hoping to open a new trade route --- 
or to convert some folks to their religion! --- but they never returned 
(simply ran out of fuel, ran into a xenophobic culture, whatever).  This 
might discourage further exploration...or it might be a great adventure 
hook for some hardy PCs....

Thanks for the great post, Leonard!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:07:45 -0400
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:

"*Critical* reality check: see how big the "bubble dome" of the cockpit
is (at the end of one of the forks). If you don't get something in the
vicinity of 3 meters (10 ft) you've blown it. 

27 meters seems kinda small."

Presuming that falcon is 27 meter long and using the drawing from the Star
Wars Technical Journal, the  diameter of the Falcon's cockpit would appear
to be about 2.5 meters.  Is this close enough for you?


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:18:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> - you let your car roll out of the driveway in netural, until your far
> enough away to engage your drive

LOL!  Thanks for the laugh...I needed it. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:21:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG Trademark Policy

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I agree arguing won't do any good.  However, this is an important point
> that should be cleared up.  A great deal of bad blood was brewed over the
> actual and precieved polcies of TSR in this area.  I fully understand FFE
> and IG's need to protect their rights, but there is a fine line to walk
> here between protecting their rights and freezing out fan participation.
>                                                        
> YOU shouldn't try to state IG or FFE's policy in this area, because you
> aren't offical.  Ken and Marc *need* to do it!

Yup.  I'm hoping MM will respond to my email soon!

> I *hope* their position will be somewhat more liberal and fan
> friendly than certain other companies.  Either way, this is an issue that
> won't go away, and will get ugly if it isn't dealt with.

I honestly don't think they're going to be ogres about it.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:29:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG's Web Site Updated

IG has updated their web site.  There is a new news item (didn't check to 
see whether anything else had changed).

Included in the news item is that the web site will be updated on a 
"bi-weekly" basis.  So, looks like I received some misinformation on 
that.  I'll update the FAQ accordingly.

Happy Travelling

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:30:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Travellet and Full Thrust

>Having been somewhat disappointed with previous Traveller spaceship
>board/miniature starship games, I've started trying to convert Full Thrust
>to Traveller ships. It's a very rough conversion, and I've had to divide it
>into two distinct scales - battles with ships 1,250 Tons and under
>(Kinunirs and below) and battles with ships 1,250 Tons and over (Kinunirs
>and above).

Interestingly enough, the ship combat system for the BABYLON PROJECT game,
slated to be included in the EARTHFORCE SOURCEBOOK, is designed by the same
folks who did Full Thrust, and will be compatible with it.
        I'd like to see any material developed for using this game with
Traveller. I've looked at it and was quite impressed.
                                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:29:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #559

Talking about the M. Falcon ....

According to a certian sourcebook from the official RPG about said subject
(hope that's ambiguos enough to avoid prosecution :).  These are the stats
that are relevant to Traveller.


The M. Falcon is 26.7 meters long.  Having enough cargo capacity for 100
metric tons.  In addition it had supplies for 2 months of operation.  2
crewmen and 6 passengers each having a bunk.  Performance wise the M. Falcon
couldn't out perform anything but big clunkers like T Bombers.  In this RPG,
a lot about maneuverability relies on the pilots skill.  It was once again
much slower than fighters but faster than most transport.
Weaponry consisted of 2 quad lasers, 2 missle launchers, and 1 light laser.
If your interested in specific stats I send them to you but I'm not sure
about Copyright in this info (believe me the said company is very strict or
so I've heard).

Hope it helps.

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:52:10 PST
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:
>
>> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT paying
>> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of this
>> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have the
>> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
>> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?
>
> Not necessarily.  *FFE* could come along and use it.  You see, you are 
> building on AND REFERENCING a property of FarFuture Enterprises.  Without 
> FFE, you wouldn't HAVE a product/article/whatever.  
>
> To get around this, you have to get a Letter of Permission from FFE, or 
> pay for a License.  
>
> Why?  Without enforcing those rules, FFE could LOSE it's Trademark and 
> Copyrights!  That's the way the law works.

Sorry, they can lose their trademarks. They *cannot* lose their
copyrights. The laws involved *quite* different.

> Xerox has to VIROROUSLY pursue those who say their photocopiers
> "xerox."  Similar for Kimberly-Klark and their trademark "Kleenex."  In 
> private conversaton is one thing, but once it is public - ie, Puffs (TM) 
> calling their products "Kleenex" - there is a legal problem, whether the 
> TM owner wants to face it or not.

Aspirin was a trademark and is the classic example of losing one thru
failure to protect. And I thought that Kleenex had lost trademark
status long ago?

> Let's say FFE let people use the Traveller trademark, and produce 
> products (even not for sale) for free, and continue owning those 
> products.  Then let's say I come along and produce a product, say it is 
> for Traveller, and start selling it without paying FFE a license fee.  If 
> Marc hauled me into court over it, I could point to all the people he let 
> slide, and say that Traveller was no longer a Trademark, but rather it 
> was in the public domain - a generic name - because he let others use it 
> without paying a license fee.  I would almost certainly WIN, and be 
> allowed to sell my "Traveller" products without paying Marc.

As long as the people *referring to* the Traveller trademark include
mention that it *is* a trademark, the trademark status is not in
danger. It's allowing people to use your trademark as if it was a
generic term that can lose you the trademark.

And as far as copyright goes, you are free to let some people use your
copyrighted material for free and insist that others pay for it. That's
your option and has no effect on your copyright.

What you do have to worry about is people releasing *Public domain*
material that incoroprates your copyrighted work. That's why (for
example) Borland requires you to either put *your* copyright on
software produced with their compilers or include a notice indicating
that your program contains code copyrighted by them.

> In short, it doesn't mean IG and FFE/Marc Miller are jerks - they HAVE to 
> treat it that way if they want to retain their legal rights.

I suspect that the statement Joe made needs a bit of fine tuning. There
are things that FFE needs to do. But they cannot require us to assign
them rights in *our* creations. They can no more market something I
write that is based on the Traveller rules *without* my permission than
I can market it without *their* permission.

> PS: I personally doubt it that FFE/IG would publish someone's work 
> without at least asking permission. (My personal opinion, mind you.)  But, 
> legally, yes, you are correct - anything with the Traveller name on it 
> is either MM's property, or he has licensed it to be made.  There  can 
> be no in-between, legally speaking.

Sorry, there *is* a middle ground. They cannot stop me from writing
anything I please. They can stop me from publishing it, but even then,
if I have the money, I can take them to court claiming that my work is
not sufficiently derivative for them to claim that I'm infringing on
their copyright. The court decides.

And if they try to publish it without my permission, they *will* lose.
Because *I*, and *I* alone have copyright on the portions of the work
that are *not* taken from the rules & background. So unless they
acquire those rights from me, they are in trouble.

So the possibilities are:

1. exclusively their work
2. part theirs, part mine
3. exclusively mine

In case 2, I can license them to use my material, they can license me
to use theirs, or we can do some sort of joint venture. But for
*anyone* to publish the material *all* of the people with rights to it
have to be dealt with.

And if FFE or anybody else says I *must* assign my rights to them to
write anything usable with their game, *I* sure as hell won't write for
them. And it'll be because they'd be going *far* beyond what is
necessary to protect their rights.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:03:59 -0800
Subject: Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

At 20:18 15/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:
>
>> - you let your car roll out of the driveway in netural, until your far
>> enough away to engage your drive
>
>LOL!  Thanks for the laugh...I needed it. :)

It was my duty, considering I started that whole copyright\trademark debate
:)  I'm gonna think up some more, and put them on my web page ASAP (address
in .sig).

Anyone else got some 'you know you're a Traveller fan when...' jokes?


_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:08:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG Copyright Issue

Hi folks,

What say we put the speculation on the back burner until Marc responds to 
my question?  

To re-iterate:  I reported exactly what Ken Whitman told me, including a 
fragment of the actual coversation, from my notes.  Subsequent 
speculation, by me as well as others, is just that: speculation.  Until 
we hear from Marc Miller, we don't really know what the policy is.


Thanks,

- -Joe (who figures he won't need to turn on the furnace this winter, what 
with all the heat coming his way for free[G])
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:49:01 -0800
Subject: Re: CSC Info from Greg Porter

>There is nothing really wierd or out of the way in there, and most of it is
>designed for Mileu 0 play (i.e. TL12-), with some items of advanced
>electronics of higher TL, and the vehicle rules cover design up to and
>including TL15, which should be largely compatible with power systems and
>design concepts for starships.

Joe, does this mean that IG will be making CSC or similar guides for each
Mileu?  Or that, each Mileu sourcebook will have an addition to the CSC,
giving equipment and technologies suitable for thier settings?

Official answer...and opinions requested.

>....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....

Looks good on you :)

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:34:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Update #6: Odds & Ends Auction.

 
 Please remember that the auction ends on Wednesday, October the 16th.
 * I will post the final bids on Thursday, October the 17th. *
 Postage in the US is $3.00 for the first item, .50 cents for each 
 additional item.
 
     
 Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #1: Soldiers of Fortune
 - $12   scharlto@rtd.com
     
 Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #2: Imperial Marines
 - $20   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 Traveller Cardboard Heros - Set #3: Zhodani
 - $20   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 The Flaming Eye
 - $30   SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 Traveller Adventure
 - $17   chrisraz@clark.net
     
 Alien Module #8: Darrians
 - $17   beck@mail.all-net.net
     
 Challenge Magazine #25
 - $7    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
      
 Traveller Chronicle Magazine #9
 - $6    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 2300AD - S.S. Virgina 25mm Deck Plans
 - $8    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 Spacegamer Magazine #38 - "Used Ships for Traveller"
 - $8    douglas@point.com
     
 Laserburn Sci. Fi. Combat Rules
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 White Dwarf Magazine #13 - "Suggested additions to Traveller, Part 1"
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
     
 White Dwarf Magazine #16 - "Suggested  additions to Traveller, Part 4"
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
    
 White Dwarf Magazine #17 - "Sable Rose Affair" (Trav. adv.)
 - $2    douglas@point.com
    
 White Dwarf Magazine #28 - "On Target" (Rules addition), "Sorry" (Trav. adv.)
 - $2    douglas@point.com
    
 Voyages SF Magazine #11 
 - $1    scharlto@rtd.com
     
 Voyages SF Magazine #13    - "Exercise" (Trav. fiction)
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com - "Katlin C. Buchannon" (Trav.starship/deckplans)                      
                            - "Sanity In Space" (Rules addition)
    
 Different Worlds Magazine #23 - "Terraforming, Part 2" (Rules addition)
 - $5    SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com  
   
 Gameplay Magazine #5
 (Good condition)
     
 Gameplay Magazine #7
 (Good condition)
     
 2300AD - Kafer Dawn
 GDW
     
 Tales of the Concordat #2: "Voyage of the Planetslayer"
 Jefferson Swycaffer (book)
 - $5    FKiesche@concentric.net
 
 Tales of the Concordat #3: "Revolt and Rebirth"
 Jefferson Swycaffer (book)
 - $5    FKiesche@concentric.net
     
 Planet in Peril
 O'Neill & Mohan (book)
 - $3    FKiesche@concentric.net
     
 Sniper! - Special Forces Supplement
 SPI
 - $5    lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
       
  
  
  
 
 

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:30:38 GMT
Subject: Canadian Hardcovers

Has anyone in Canada received a hardcover yet?

You'd think as the US's largest trading partner, they'd have figured out how
to ship stuff north of the border by now.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:05:34 GMT
Subject: TNE Sectors

Michael Koehne asks:

>	I'm also thinking about collapsing the sector data, and scanning
>	_The Regency Sourcebook_, _Path Of Tears_ and _Vampire Fleets_. Has
>	anybody made some pocket empires I should include ? Has anybody
>	already scanned the canon TNE sectors ?

I've typed in the official GDW TNE sectors. The files are available as part
of the Imperial Grand Survey software package at:

http://www.interlog.com/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:21:43 GMT
Subject: Unmapped Territory

>By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
>territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your adventurers
>to particpate in defining theteritory.

Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are, well,
'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.  That way people can safely develop
areas knowing that future IG products will fit right in with their campaigns.
 And those of us that don't have time to lovingly detail sectors can rely on
the official background, which will of course include fairly large contiguous
areas for adventuring.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:25:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Languages and Religion (in Traveller!)

>Somewhere out there on the Net I was able to find a Traveller random 
>word generator for the following languages - Aslan, Droyne, Vargr, 
>Vilani, & Zhodani.  Maybe one of our savants can help with a URL?

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:26:45 GMT
Subject: Re: TNE Sectors

>I've typed in the official GDW TNE sectors. The files are available as part
of the Imperial Grand >Survey software package at:
>
> http://www.interlog.com/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html
OOPS.

That address should be:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:13:16 GMT
Subject: Jewish Sabbath in Space

I haven't finished my exploration of hypothetical future Christianity yet, but
I do have an answer to whoever asked about Sabbath on worlds about different
stars.

Right now, two times may be used when you are in a place (like the arctic
circle) with no clear night/day: use the sunrise/sunset of the nearest city
that has one, or use Jerusalem time.  My rabbinical contact says that these
rules should also apply on other planets.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:39:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Frank Repzinski & World Details

>Generating a UWP on every world is not an outlandish task.  We have always
gotten our 
>sector stats in the GDW and DGP products.  Use them!  They are already done!

There's also problems with the DGP data - the systems aren't random (their
random number generator wasn't).

To be honest, I rather like the idea of being able to generate
worlds/subsectors that fit into the Imperium.  As long as I know that we
won't get 'Marced', I'm happy.  ('Marced' comes from the term 'Gregged', used
by Runequest players to describe what happens when Greg Stafford adds
something to the official Glorantha which doesn't fit into something you've
already done.)

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:45:07 -0700
Subject: Major/minor races

Amused to Death wrote:
> So when it comes down to it, the only major races are the little lizards and the horseys
> What a blow for humanoid pride

Personally, I suscribe to the Aslan way of thinking. They may be a
"minor" race but they were awfully good at kicking the Regency's butt
until Norris bought 'em off.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #562
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 563

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Millenium Falcon 
         2. Re: TNE Sectors
         3. Traveller Task Talk
         4. PART TWO:  Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!
         5. Re: TNE Sectors
         6. The "Imperial Hope" 
         7. Traveller Costuming
         8. minor/major
         9. The 2D Task System, V.1.1
        10. Re: 4 X J1 (was re: Digest #xyz, or something as useful)
        11. Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
        12. Copyright

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 00:57:58 -0400
Subject: Millenium Falcon 

"Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 200'!, this would make the Falcon come out to around 900 dtons.
> I calculate the length of the full size Falcon mockup
> was just under 27 meters, that same size used by WEG.  Unfortunately, when
> I calculated the displacement of the Millennium Falcon to be around 150 to
> 200 dtons I assumed that my model was about 1/76 scale (making the Falcon
> 35 meters long).

It's been so long, that I've forgotten how I scaled my model of the Falcon
to come up with a 300-ton figure.  I _believe_ that the box mentioned a
nominal scale on it (1:144?) and I used that to figure the ship's
dimensions.

It's worth noting that this came out to about 300 dtons, and made the main
deck (between the hemispheres) almost exactly the right size for a single
Traveller deck, with a lower drive deck below where the "lump" is on the
bottom of the ship.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:28:28 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE Sectors

Rob Prior wrote:
> I've typed in the official GDW TNE sectors. The files are available as part
> of the Imperial Grand Survey software package at:
> 
> http://www.interlog.com/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

But they're for a Mac and I've got an IBM clone. Waaahhh!

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:52:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Traveller Task Talk

  Introductory note: While Kenneth and I pretty consistently refer to each
other personally in these postings, I'm sure that neither of us means to
exclude comments by third-parties (otherwise we'd write by private mail), so
if you see anything below that you want to respond to, please do.

On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:02:37 -0700, 
Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>I've got to differ with you here Trent.  The 3D for the difficult difficulty category is 
>what I was referring to.  If you use the T4 target number calculation by adding skill 
>plus attribrute, you do get some low probabilities that are unrealistic and too harsh to 
>play with.
>
>For example, Dex 5 and Handguns-1:  Target number is 6.   Skill level-1 is, of course, 
>the minimum training and experience that a person can get, but a Dex of 5 isn't that 
>bad.  Difficulty of Difficult under your system only gives a 9% chance of success.  
>Compare this to 17.6% under the 2.5 dice T4 system and MT's 27.7%.  Your system is 3 
>times harder than MT and twice as hard as that proposed in T4.

  Thanks for pointing this out.  I had obviously overlooked this end of the
spectrum, and I'm glad to see that someone else caught it.  I guess that's
what I get for posting statistical-type theories without doing my homework.
I still don't particularly relish the idea of rolling half-dice, but I'll
take your word on it, at least for now, that they are, in fact, a necessary
evil.
 
[Regarding my claim that skill-levels in T4 seem to be worth less on a
point-for-point basis than they were in CT/MT]:

>I have to disagree with you again.  I cannot see any evidence that skill levels are 
>weighted any less than in CT.  Skill levels still max out at around 5-7, or so.  If you 
>look at the medical skill in the T4 main book, you will see that it describes the 
>various levels of medical skill just as it was done in CT and MT.  And, skills still 
>improve the die throw by the same amount (granted the system has been changed each time, 
>so this may not be a viable comparison).

   We may just have to agree to disagree here.  I won't argue that the 
descriptions provided in the rulebook have skill levels being consistent
between the various editions, but the fact remains that the "average" 
character generated under the new system will not only have more skills, but
most likely will have them at generally higher levels.  When I looked back
over the PCs I've generated, I see that, if anything, my earlier claim 
underestimated the amount of skills they have-- 2 or 3 skills at l-3 or l-4,
6 or so skills at l-2, and around 10 l-1 skills, each.  In the new system
we not only have the possibility of up to 6 skills per Term, we also have
all those background skills and special bonuses from Higher Education and
such.  If we follow the old CT/MT conventional wisdom that level 1 is
"trained," levels 2-3 are "experienced", levels 4-5 are "expert" and level-6+
is "superbad", then it seems that we've gone from one extreme (the
marginally-trained CT Scouts and Others) to the other (where every character
has an incredibly diverse knowledge and skill base, and is a certified expert
in several fields).  While perhaps I over-compensated by suggesting that we
effectively divide the T4 skill by 2 to get an equivalent CT/MT skill, I 
still think that the difference in the power-levels as presented is 
significant, and I also think it's a telling sign that T4 seems to have 
done away with level-0 ("marginally trained") and now assigns level-1 in all
of those old cases.
   In fact, IIRC, it was the fact that it's so easy under the new system 
to get these high-stat high-skill characters who break the task system that
the need for a fix was first realized.  In CT, for instance, it really
doesn't matter whether a character with stat-13, skill-5 can walk all over
the rules because you almost never see such a person.  Now, by golly, they're
everywhere! (especially if the player chooses his advances).
   I'm no longer sure what my actual point in writing all of the above was,
but I guess what I'm trying to say is to be careful when designing the 
task-fix to base it on characters under the new rules (regarding which, I 
thought the "average" PC you posted seemed pretty puny compared to what I've
generated: do you recall how many Terms he went through?) and not some
idealized conception of "typical" that may be based on outdated notions (such
as the character with nothing but level-1 and 2 skills). 
    Before I ramble any further, I think I really need to take a look at
what you've come up with and see how it suits my fancy. 

>Anyway, Trent.  Take a look at what I've posted on the new task fix and let me know what 
>you think.  I believe that I've tweaked the T4 system--without over tweaking it--enough 
>to provide a good fix that we can all use easily.

  Maybe I've accidentally erased something, but I haven't seen this fix that
you're referring to posted.  If somehow I did miss it, could someone either
email it to me or tell me which digest it appeared in?

>I'll see you on that thread,

  See above.  As soon as I read what you've posted, I figure you probably will.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 03:02:04 -0700
Subject: PART TWO:  Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!

PART TWO:  KEN'S TASK FISK PROTOTYPE!

OK, Eris, Joe, Trent, Paul, David, Declan, and everyone else on TML, here is my task 
system submitted for your approval.

Try to go easy on me.



I.  TASK DIFFICULTIES.
Remember in part one, I went over my 10 goals for this project and discussed how I 
achieved them.  See that post for further details on why I have made the task 
difficulties as they are presented here (also see that post for why I am still using 
some half die when many people, including myself, do not like using them).

In a nut shell, we wanted a task system that would make the harder difficulty categories 
(staggering and impossible) harder to make without makeing the easier difficulties 
(average and difficult) harder to hit as well.  And, we wanted this system to be an easy 
fix to the problems in T4.  We didn't want to re-invent the wheel--we only wanted to 
tweak the T4 system.

I have done that here.  I can't think of an easier fix than just doing everything as 
detailed in T4 except changing the dice thrown on only two difficulty categories.  The 
only thing that I have done differently from what is already published is that I have 
made the staggering and impossible categories harder by requiring more dice be thrown 
with them.  It is an easy, easy fix, and you might be surprised at how much it improves 
the probabilities to where we wanted them to be.

I present my chart to you.  All probabilities are rounded to the nearest percent.  I got 
my probability information from the posts of Joe Walsh and Robert Flammang, so please 
don't crucify me if the numbers are a little off (I'm not saying they are.  In fact, I 
think that they are pretty close--I'm just not saying I checked their work).

Easy tasks are, of course, automatic for skilled characters.

So here's the probability chart.

		Easy	Avg.	Diff.	Form.	Stag.	Imp.
Target Number	1.5	2	2.5	3	4	5
	
	2	6	3	1	1	0	0
	3	17	8	1	1	0	0
	
	4	33	17	4	2	0	0
	5	50	28	9	5	0	0
	6	67	42	18	9	1	0

	7	83	58	29	16	3	0
	8	94	72	43	26	5	1
	9	100	83	57	38	10	2

	10	100	92	71	50	16	3
	11	100	97	82	62	24	6
	12	100	97	91	74	34	10

	13	100	97	95	82	44	15
	14	100	97	97	88	55	22
	15	100	97	97	91	65	30

	16	100	97	97	93	73	39
	17	100	97	97	93	79	49
	18	100	97	97	93	83	58

	19	100	97	97	93	85	65
	20	100	97	97	93	87	71
	21	100	97	97	93	87	75

	22	100	97	97	93	87	78
	23	100	97	97	93	87	79
	24	100	97	97	93	87	80

	25	100	97	97	93	87	80
	==	===	==	==	==	==	==
	SS	6	3	1	1	0	0
	SF	0	3	3	7	13	20



II.  THE TEST.
Well, I think the probabilities stack up pretty good against any previous Traveller 
system--MT included.  If you remember in my 10 goals, I picked a character out of my 
campaign to test any new task system, so, in this section, I want to test what I have 
printed above.

Here's the character again:

	Ulric Birtran Harrisani
        
                        SKILL           LEVEL   GOV CHAR
        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        STR 7           HISTORY         1       EDU
        DEX 7           LONG BLADE      1       DEX OR STR
        END 3           COMPUTER        4       EDU OR INT
        INT 9           GRAV CRAFT      1       DEX
        EDU 6           TRADER          4       INT OR SOC
        SOC 6           CAROUSING       1       SOC
                        LIASON          1       INT OR EDU OR SOC
                        BROKER          1       INT OR EDU
                        VAC SUIT        1       DEX
                        ADMIN           1       SOC OR EDU



Doing some quick figuring using T4 target number calculation, we can see that Ulric only 
has 4 target numbers that can be derived from any of his skills--7, 8, 10, 13.

Remember that the 13 target number was the one that made me start this thread in the 
first place--I could not buy that Ulric had a 44% chance on an impossible task.  This is 
what told me that the task system needed fixing in the first place.

So, let's look at his probablities on each target number.

		Easy	Avg.	Diff.	Form.	Stag.	Imp.
Target Number	1.5	2	2.5	3	4	5
	
	7	Auto	58	29	16	3	0
	8	Auto	72	29	16	3	0
	10	Auto	92	71	50	16	3
	13	Auto	97	95	82	44	15



I think ole' Ulric stacks up pretty well considering his skills and abilities.  Notice 
that the previous 44% on the impossible category (for his specialty in computers) drops 
to a very agreeable 15% with my system.  Still, Ulric doesn't do too bad with his low 
level skills either.  I like this.  I like this a lot.  The impossible is kept 
impossible.  The speciality skills have a real good chance in just about every category, 
and the low level skills are very playable.  I don't think we could have asked for a 
better fix.

Let's do a few more tests.  I want to take a very marginal character, an average 
character, and the super geek.  Here's their stats:

	Marge the Marginal	Stat-2;		Skill-1		Tgt. Num. 3
	Avery the Average	Stat-7;		Skill-2		Tgt. Num. 9
	Glen the Geek		Stat-15;	Skill-7		Tgt. Num. 22

OK, let's look at their probs now.

		Easy	Avg.	Diff.	Form.	Stag.	Imp.
Target Number	1.5	2	2.5	3	4	5
	
	3	Auto	8	1	1	0	0
	9	Auto	83	57	38	10	2
	22	Auto	97	97	93	87	78


Poor old Marge doesn't do that well, but that is to be expected from someone who is just 
about crippled.  I agree with her probs.

Avery is our average character.  Compare his probs with the percentages that everyone 
posted for their ideal average character.  My numbers were:
		Easy	95%
		Avg.	80%
		Diff.	40%
		Form.	20%
		Stag.	10%
		Imp.	5%

Avery the average is damn close to these numbers.  Easy is automatic--is close to my 
pick of 95%.  The average category is only off 3%.  The difficulty category is off 17% 
in the character's favor.  The form category is off 18% to the character's favor.  
Staggering is right on the money.  And, impossible is only off 2%!

I like these numbers.

Now let's consider Glen the geek.  He's got the best attribute and an outstanding skill 
level.  He's just about in the 90 percentile bracket for every category except 
impossible, and he's got an 80% chance for that.  But I have no problem with this.  A 
character with his stats should have this benefit.


III.  SUMMARY.
So, I submit it to all of you.  This task fix is a good one.  It does what we set out to 
do, and it is easy to implement with T4.  I think it is better thant the MT system.  

OK, I'm done.  I'm ready to tackle whatever comments, questions, or critisims that you 
might have.

Please note that some of the goals that I set forth for this project are not met by just 
this fix.  I haven't addressed the problem of skills being weighted too strongly, etc.

Well, I have a fix for that as well.  I know that some of you don't have a problem with 
the way target numbers are computed in T4, and this is why I handled the new difficulty 
system first.  You people can use this system, if you want, and forget about the rest of 
this thread.

For the rest of us, there are other problems with the T4 task system.  I am going to 
propose a fix for those in part three.

Until then,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 03:08:34 -0700
Subject: Re: TNE Sectors

David Joseph Smart wrote:

> But they're for a Mac and I've got an IBM clone. Waaahhh!

I've got an IBM clone, too.  Is this a Mac vs IBM conspiracy?

Damn right brain thinking Zhodani...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 16 Oct 96 18:20:39 +1000
Subject: The "Imperial Hope" 

     THE IMPERIAL HOPE: A GRADUATE SCHOOL OF THE UNIVERSITY OF SYLEA
     
     The University of Sylea's Faculty of Arts offers two-year scholarships 
     for outstanding social sciences students aboard the "Imperial Hope", a 
     converted 2,000t merchant which serves as a travelling graduate 
     school. 
     
     The "Imperial Hope" is a surplus 2,000t streamlined merchant, converted 
     to a social science research school. The "Hope" will usually be 
     encountered in orbit around one of the Sylean or nearby worlds, and its 
     students and staff will be engaged in various research and coursework 
     activities, both on board and on the mainworld. 
     
     The "Hope" only has jump-1 capability and so rarely leaves the Sylean 
     Main. The ship generally tours Core sector for eleven months each year, 
     returning to Sylea for one month of overhaul, refit and staff rotation. 
     The ship's itinerary is determined (within reason!) by the specific 
     research being undertaken by the students and staff. Insystem time 
     ranges from a few hours (refuelling only if there is nothing of 
     academic interest in the system) to a maximum of about four weeks. 
     
     Each graduate student receives a two-year berth aboard the "Hope", 
     which entitles them to a double-occupancy middle passage, full life 
     support, and access to onboard teaching, library and research 
     resources. In addition to their studies, students learn the basics of 
     operating a starship by assisting in various duties (roll 5+ on 1D for 
     each of Ship's Boat-1, Engineering-1, Steward-1). 
     
     At the end of their time aboard, the students receive a Masters degree 
     from the University of Sylea. Those completing the course with honours 
     are eligible to continue aboard for a further two years as junior 
     academic staff and researching to receive their doctorate. 
     
     Academic staff are organised into three schools: Politics, Economics and 
     Sociology. Some of the most outstanding social scientists of the Imperium 
     have spent time as academic staff aboard the "Imperial Hope". Staff members 
     sign aboard for up to four years, after which time they exchange with other 
     staff from universities all over the Imperium. Staff positions aboard the 
     "Hope" are highly prestigious, and confer a temporary +1 SOC (to a maximum 
     of A, and only while a member of staff). 
     
     The shipboard crew of the "Hope" are a collection of retired Scout, Navy 
     and Merchant personnel. However, it is surprisingly easy to find a position 
     aboard, as some crewmembers quickly tire of the academic staff and their 
     "caramel sauce" students ("Why caramel sauce? Think of something rich and 
     very thick..."). Students and junior crewmembers take considerable pleasure 
     in baiting each other, generally in good humour. 
     
     The "Hope" is outfitted with excellent resources, including an extensive 
     holocrystal library. While insystem, the library is updated hourly via data 
     link to local library resources. 
     
     Adventure hooks: 
     1. PCs may be graduate students aboard the ship. 
     2. PCs may be academic staff aboard the "Imperial Hope" (required: 
     Int, Edu or Soc A+ plus a doctorate in one of the social sciences)
     3. PCs may be members of the permanent shipboard crew of the "Imperial 
     Hope"; the "Hope" also signs crewmembers aboard for temporary working 
     passage. 

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 16 Oct 96 10:08:55 EDT
Subject: Traveller Costuming

Yo Folkes,
    I'm putting together a Imperial Navy, c. 0, costume to wear at
the T4 stand at OrkCon in Germany on the 1,2,3 of November.
I've taken as my basic model the military type in Elmore's
interior artwork in T4. However he is obviously depicting a much
later era as the sunburst is quite clearly dark on light. The 
Mileau-0 sunburst should be yellow on black, straight off of
Cleon's Arms.
    I started with basic black combat trousers and shirt (German
issue, actually :-), and a pair of biker boots. The trousers were
fine but I added shoulder and epaulette patches to the shirt.
Also I modified the collar from a standard to a mandarin. I got
a gold lanyard for the left shoulder and bought a black baseball
cap (couldn't find berets in Dublin) which I sewed another sunburst
onto. I still need to get a pistol belt and create some SF looking
things to hang off it.
    The only place I am stuck is how to do the combat ribbons.
Is there any military person out there who can tell me how the
real ones are done? Any suggestions on how to do a mock up?
They just look like a bar with different coloured bits of cloth. But
what do you use as the backing and how do you get it to stick
to the uniform right?

    For people's interests, after much struggle I worked out a pretty
good way to make patches without going insane. Take a circle
of yellow felt the size you want your patch to be. Then get some
black acrylic paint (I used minature paint) and a pencil. Draw lightly
a ring just inside the circle at about the right hight for reasonable
triangles. Then mark at regular intervals points along the edge
and circle alternatively. These will be the end points of the triangle.
Now, in pencil connect the points. Don't just draw straight lines.
Curve them or do spline like waves. Lastly draw another circle
inside of the first one. This will be the guide for the inner ring separating
the "ring of fire" from the central disk.
    With the black paint, ink in the outer triangles. Don't cut them out!
This make the felt fray and impossible to sew. Just black them out.
(Note: you have to be planning to sew it onto a black surface). When
you are done also paint the along the inner circle you have drawn.
    Let it all dry completely. When you are done stitch it onto your
surface with black thread by sewing through the inked in bits. It forms
a firm attachment and the thread isn't visible.
    I can't say how well it washes!

     Cheers,
        Jo

PS: Anyone got any scanned in photos of themselves in uniform?

------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:42:00 -0400
Subject: minor/major

Amused to Death wrote:
> So when it comes down to it, the only major races are the little lizards
and >the horseys
> What a blow for humanoid pride	

Ok, I read 'little lizards' as Dryone & not the Hiver bully boys.
'The horseys' are obviously the PETA (not the People Eating Tasty Animals)
dream come true.

 Given the K'kree ego, they wouldn't tell anybody about any Ancient sites
they found which pointed them to jump drives.


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  -- Politics should be limited in scope 
to war, protection of property, and the occasional precautionary 
beheading of a member of the ruling class."  -- P.J. O'Rourke 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:00:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The 2D Task System, V.1.1

Here's 2D Task System, with some revisions. Thanks to James Garriss for
helpful suggestions. The main revision is that I have bumped all the Base
Target Numbers up by 10 (the original version was deemed too difficult).

The benefits of this system:
  * only two dice are rolled for all tasks,
  * no half-dice,
  * skill levels count for more than stat points,
  * target numbers can be calculated before play begins,
  * characters with high stats and/or skills are not super-powerful,
  * similar to a percentile system, hence more intuitive,
  * no pesky bell curve,
  * each increase in difficulty represents an equal decrease in probability,
  * each increase in skill or stat represents an equal increase in probability,
  * intuitive,
  * requires little conversion from T4,
  * easily modified to suit situation, taste, style of game.

[You might note that the base target numbers now end in sixes, not zeros as
before. Zeros don't exist in the 11-66 matrix, so that didn't work for
applying negative modifiers (for characters with very a low stat, for
instance).]

If you try the system out, please do let me know how well it works for you.
Also please report to me any bugs, typos, or mathematical errors. Much
appreciated.

Glenn Grant
<pawn@cam.org>
- -------------------------------------------------

             The 2D Task System
                    v1.1
          A simple task roll system
   compatible with Marc Miller's Traveller (T4)

This system uses a simple roll of two dice to determine task success or
failure. No more rolling a half-dozen dice, no more half-dice, and no more
skewed probabilities in the higher stat+skill levels. Best of all, no pesky
bell curve! And skill levels count for more than stat points. It combines
many of the advantages of a percentile system with the traditional D6-only
system of CT/MT/T4; thus little or no conversion is necessary.

The task roll is two dice in succession, providing a two-digit number
between 11 and 66 (just like the old CT Trade table). As in T4, the task is
successful if the player rolls below the target number.

The base target number is determined by the Difficulty Level:

Difficulty Level   Base Target #
   Impossible           06-
   Staggering           16-
   Formidable           26-
   Difficult            36-
   Average              46-
   Easy                 56-
   
The base target number is modified by the PC's skill and then by the
corresponding characteristic.

Each skill level adds 2 to the target number. Thus the skill modifier is
(skill*2). For 0-level skill tests, don't halve the characteristic (as in
T4). Instead, increase the Difficulty by one level (by simply adding 1 to
the first digit of the base target number).

There are two suggested methods for determining the inflence of
characteristics (other methods are possible):

1) Only above-average characteristics have an influence: for each point
above 7, add 1 to the base target number. Thus the stat modifier is:
(stat-7) for stats above 7; otherwise no modifier. (This may be preferable
at low skill levels.)

2) Above- *and* below-average characteristics effect the target number: for
each point below 7, subtract 1 from the target number; for each point
above, add 1. Thus the stat modifier is -(7-stat) for stats below 7, and
+(stat-7) for those above 7.

NOTE, however, that these modifiers are not added in base-10. The modifiers
are counted as steps up or down the 11-66 matrix:

     <----down        up---->
01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 
21, 22, 23, 24 etc...

Example: a character with Skill 3 and Stat 9 is attempting a Difficult
task. The base target is 26-. He adds 6 for the skill (3*2=6) + 2 for the
above-average stat (9-7=2), for a modifier of +8. The result is not 38, as
it would be in base-10, because 38 doesn't exist on the matrix. Instead, he
counts 8 steps up the matrix; so the actual target number is 42-.

If this seems complicated, it won't be after you've tried it a few times.
It soon becomes intuitive and quick. To save time, target number mods for
all skills can be pre-calculated by the players, before the game begins.
Adjusting for Difficulty Level is a simple matter of altering the first
digit of the target number.

For 0-level skill tests, don't halve the characteristic (as in T4).
Instead, increase the Difficulty by one level (by simply adding 1 to the
first digit of the base target number).

As always, a roll of two sixes is a spectacular failure, and two ones is a
spectacular success - even if the target number is below 11. 

Here's a chart to showing the resulting targets for an average stat
(ignoring for the moment the Spectacular Result rules)...

Stat = 7                      Skill
              0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7 
Easy         52    62    64    66   Auto  Auto  Auto  Auto
Average      42    52    54    56    62    64   Auto  Auto  
Difficult    32    42    44    46    52    54    56    62
Formidable   22    32    34    36    42    44    46    52
Staggering   12    22    24    26    32    34    36    42
Impossible   02    12    14    16    22    24    26    32 

For each stat point above 7, add 1 to these Target numbers.
For each stat point below 7, subtract 1 (optional).
(OR choose your own method of applying stat mods.)

Probabilities:

Stat = 7                        Skill
               0     1     2     3     4     5     6    7  
Easy         70.2  86.4  91.8 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0  %
Average      54.0  70.2  75.6  81.0  86.4  91.8 100.0 100.0  %
Difficult    37.8  54.0  59.4  64.8  70.2  75.6  81.0  86.4  %
Formidable   21.6  37.8  43.2  48.6  54.0  59.4  64.8  70.2  %
Staggering    5.4  21.6  27.0  32.4  37.8  43.2  48.6  54.0  %
Impossible    --    5.4   8.1  16.2  21.6  27.0  32.4  37.8  %

Bump these figures up by 2.7 if Spectacular Success rule is applied.

NOTE: In general, most DMs given in the rule books will have a lessened
effect on the results, though they will still be important. The referee may
wish to amplify certain DMs, depending on the situation.

The T4 Multiple Actions rule will not work in this system. A new rule is
needed: when attempting multiple actions, do not reduce the stat mods.
Instead, increase the difficulty two levels for each extra action (-2 to
the target number). Thus, for a character with stat of 7 and skill of 6,
the target number for a single Difficult action is 56-; for two such
actions, 36-; for three, 16-. (Obviously, this rule does not allow
characters to perform as many extra actions as the original rule.) [I would
be interested to hear suggestions for a better formulation of this rule.]




------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:37:51 +0100
Subject: Re: 4 X J1 (was re: Digest #xyz, or something as useful)

     Leonard Erickson wrote:
     
     > With J1 drives, getting there would be a *major* undertaking. How 
     > many ships are equipped to make *4* jumps? I say four, because until 
     > you've been there, you don't know if you can refuel there.
     
     Actually, it takes exactly the same amount of fuel to do 4 X J1 as it 
     doe to do 1 X J4.  Also, the jump drive is smaller, so you can carry 
     more fuel :-).  I like to design TL12 scout ships with enough fuel in 
     the main tanks to make one jump at the maximum rating of the jump 
     drive (i.e. J2), and have a decent sized cargo hold with collapsible 
     fuel tanks fitted.  This gives it the flexability to carry a good 
     amount of cargo on short trips, or to fill up the tanks and do 
     multiple jumps (enough fuel for another J2 is usually possible).
     
     BTW, I haven't been following this thread, so my comments may not be 
     appropriate to the context
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     (until 18/10/96)

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:44:38 +0100
Subject: Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

     Chris Cox wrote:
     
     > You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . . 
     > 
     > Despit what your spell checker tells you, you KNOW that Traveller is 
     > spelled with Two 'L's
     
     Of course, those of us in BITS *already* know that Traveller is 
     spelled with two "l"s.
     
     ;-)
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     (until 18/10/96)

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:59:53 -0500
Subject: Copyright

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:52:10 PST
>Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96
>
>As long as the people *referring to* the Traveller trademark include
>mention that it *is* a trademark, the trademark status is not in
>danger. It's allowing people to use your trademark as if it was a
>generic term that can lose you the trademark.
>
>And as far as copyright goes, you are free to let some people use your
>copyrighted material for free and insist that others pay for it. That's
>your option and has no effect on your copyright.
>
>What you do have to worry about is people releasing *Public domain*
>material that incoroprates your copyrighted work. That's why (for
>example) Borland requires you to either put *your* copyright on
>software produced with their compilers or include a notice indicating
>that your program contains code copyrighted by them.

As far as I can tell, this is the contingency that Ken's statement was
seeking to provide for.  By placing the Copyright after the Trademark info,
and no name mentioned after the Copyright, IIRC that means the creator of
the material is holding the copyright, not IG.  If you put FFE or IG AFTER
the Copyright, then the work becomes FFE's or IG's.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #563
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 564

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: M. Falcon
         2. Might Be...(longish)
         3. The Only Explanation
         4. Re: Might Be...(longish)
         5. CSC Preview! (long)
         6. Re: The Only Explanation (SPOILER Alert)
         7. Proposal to return decorations to T4
         8. 'Mystery' Backers of Imperium Games
         9. Re: IG Trademark/Copyright Policy
        10. Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:34:11 -0700
Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Chris Cox wrote:
> 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
> 
>>"*Critical* reality check: see how big the "bubble dome" of the cockpit
>>is (at the end of one of the forks). If you don't get something in the
>>vicinity of 3 meters (10 ft) you've blown it.
> 
>>27 meters seems kinda small."
> 
>Presuming that falcon is 27 meter long and using the drawing from the 
>Star Wars Technical Journal, the  diameter of the Falcon's cockpit would 
>appear to be about 2.5 meters.  Is this close enough for you?

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the actual dimensions of the 
falcon are somewhere between what you came up with for exterior 
dimensions and what I came up with using interior dimensions.  I don't 
have anything to go with for true scale but through guesstamating the 
size of rooms seen in the movies, movie camera's can fool you on size 
really easily, I'm coming up with about 40m which makes the cockpit 3.5 
or so meters across making it about 12 feet across.

After reorganizing my living room, I had to get a new couch in here 
anyway, this is probably pretty close to the cockpit's true dimensions.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:34:49 -0500
Subject: Might Be...(longish)

You might be a Traveller Ref If...

...you know the exact kiloliter size of your car's fuel tank.

...you map out vacation travel by refueling points.

...someone says Navy and you automatically think of Starships.

...you rival top military in your strategy planning, but yours is for the
Vargr incursions.

...you know the cargo capicity of your car, and refer to the trunk as the
cargo hold.

...when someone mentions fuel, you think of liquid hydrogen.

...you have plans to upgrade your car to extended life support for those
longer road trips.

...you buy another Traveller supplement and refer to it as an investment.

...you refer to the bathroom as a fresher.

...you know there is no money in being a free trader, but you want to do it
anyway.

...you have been to your bank asking for a loan for a Jayhawk.

...you proudly refer to your car's armor value and ability to withstand
micrometeors.

...your first date with your spouce was to play Traveller.

...you take apart your car's fuel tank to install baffles.

...the term future-history is not an oxymoron to you.

...you know the real reason behind the Office of Calandar Compliance.

...you know the rules of, and have played, Gravball.

...you have a map of the Spinward Marches hanging in your bedroom.

...you cried when you heard that Strephon died.

...You own a "Bzzrk for Emperor" button.

...you cried again when you head that Bzzrk died.

...you throw mice to your cat to see a dewclaw in action.

...when someone refers to the US/Native American wars as Frontier Wars, you
think, "You ain't seen nothing yet."

...your real life is immaginary.

...you are really a dilettante, but refer to youself as having a high
Jack-of-all-Trades skill.

...you have starship floorplans hanging on your wall instead of pictures.

...you dim the interior lights before pulling onto the highway.

...you know that it is all just a Hiver manipulation anyway.

...you get hot flashes at a Traveller auction.

...your resume includes a UPP and skill listing.

...you have looked for a local branch of the psionic institute.

...you know how to really have fun with your clothes on.

and last but not least....

...you know that real starships don't separate "saucer section" and "star drive"

can I get an amen?!?!?

(More when the mood strikes again. :)


------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:29:05 +0100
Subject: The Only Explanation

I love the idea that Homo Sapiens is the result of genetic engineering of an
earlier Homo genus, subsequently planted on a number of planets (including
Terra) by the Ancients.  I agree: it is the only explanation, and its
beautiful in its simplicity!!! I've lost the original post, but
congratulations to the inventor!

A couple of points arise:

Is Homo Sapiens really Homo Psionisis? Was the whole purpose of the Ancients
to create a psionic primate, perhaps in order to integrate it into Droyne
Society more fully?  Perhaps the Geonee/Chirper interaction is an echo of this?

Did the genetic engineering occur long after the Ancients' Final War, as our
knowledge of H. Sapiens' first appearance would suggest? Were the engineers
the last tragic relic of the doomed Ancient civilisation trying to light
their own candle against the coming night...

PS Are the Aslan a major race? I hope so, I've always liked them.

Jamie


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:50:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Might Be...(longish)

On 16 Oct 96 at 9:34, Paul Walker wrote:

> You might be a Traveller Ref If...

Paul, I was ROFLIDOWMP

(Rolling on the floor laughing & In Danger of Wetting My Pants...) :-)

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
Traveller referee since 1978, Official USENet 
spokesperson for Imperium Games
- ---------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 11:11:34 -0400
Subject: CSC Preview! (long)

As requested, here's a "preview" of the Central Supply Catalog, from Greg
Porter (many thanks to Greg for providing us with this promotional sample).
Included is a sample item from each major section of the book. 

Unfortunately the tabbing of the design sheets didn't survive (and wasn't
easy for me to re-contstruct).  Included is the descriptive information
and stats, but the design sheet portion has been deleted.

****

Greetings Sapient!
This printed guide is an abstract of Imperial Publication 03-8462872, "Guide
to Supplies, Consumables and Trade Opportunities in the Imperium". It
contains information compiled from over 70 trade and survey expeditions to
worlds that have been out of contact with the Imperium for over 1000 years.
While each world is unique, certain technological developments have been
fairly predictable. This publication lists that subset of items which
explorers have found most useful to have on hand for convenience or trade
purposes, and those which have been most commonly encountered on other
worlds, and which are of note either for economic potential, hazard or
curiousity's sake.

This guide is broken down into the following cross-linked sections:
 Imperial Surplus
 Personal protective gear
 Exploration tools
 Personal mobility
 Communications
 Commercial goods (uncategorized)
 Vehicles (plus design tools)

Full specifications, suppliers and case histories of use for any item can be
downloaded via references in this guide for a nominal fee. Mention of an item
in this abstract does not imply endorsement by an Imperial agency or any
guarantee of performance, either express or implied. All comments by end
users are guaranteed to be representative of the majority opinion for the
relevant item, but are not guaranteed to be reliable. Individual reference
locators are current at the time of download in case personal contact is
desired.

In game terms, this abstract is a single sheet of paper that can be
downloaded from any general purpose Sylean news kiosk for the cost of 5Cr.
The full specifications and contact list is 50Cr, but purchasers of the
abstract get a 5Cr discount.

****

LAV-10
The LAV-10 is a tracked utility vehicle superceded by fusion-powered antigrav
units and removed from secondary service in year -21. Normal role was as
prime mover, non-combat troop transport or light weapons platform. 

The Central Storage Depot at Port Sidon has a large number of LAV-10 utility
vehicles for sale for export or metals reclamation. No warranty is expressed
or implied as to usability except for a guaranteed recyclable mass of 3,600kg
per unit. LAV-10 units are available for 2500Cr each in minimum quantities of
10 and have a shipping mass of approximately 6,000kg each.

The surplus LAV-10's may be missing tracks, engines or instrumentation. While
they are sealed for use with life support, it is not currently installed, and
while wiring and data paths for military electronics are intact, all sensors
and communications gear has been removed. On average, five units can be
disassembled to get one LAV-10 in good used condition and a lot of spare
parts. This process will take about 200 man-hours in a vehicle repair shop,
and this time can include retrofitting with a Fusion+ unit for an additional
1500Cr in parts and labor.

LAV-10 (stripped)
Displacement: 3.0 (USP7)
Volume: 42.000m3
Configuration: Box
Dimensions: 5.38m long x 2.80m high x 2.80m wide (approximate) 
Structural material: Crystaliron
Chassis: 1g rated
Armor: .3cm TL10 Crystaliron
Armor rating: Overall rating of 6
Power plant: TL5 Internal combustion, .6Mw
Fuel consumption: 7.5m3 per 100 hours
Fuel volume: x1 (high grade hydrocarbons)
Fuel carried: 15 hours
Propulsion: TL8 Tracks (x.55 speed multiple)
 Adverse condition propulsion (off-road)
 Secondary propulsion (waterjets)
Crew: Driver
 Passenger x 5
Options: Turret (empty, capable of holding .5m3)
 Cargo compartment 30.000m3 15.000t
 Trailer hitch, up to 20 tons
Total 22.560t, 121.670KCr

Performance(loaded): acceleration .1g,
 top speed 66m/turn (39kph),
 maximum range 594km
     (driver only): acceleration .2g,
 top speed 140m/turn (84kph),
 maximum range 1260km
Agility: +3DM to be hit

Description - A tracked prime mover capable of hauling a variety of loads
across rough terrain, with provision for light self-defense weaponry, and
armored sufficient to stop most small arms.
 
****

EVA-11
Current manufacture hostile environment suit, applicable for industrial work
in zero-g, vacuum, or non-breathable environments. It contains state of the
art systems to increase the safety and efficiency of the unit and costs
approximately 100KCr new. Used or reconditioned units may be available from
mining or construction companies for a discount of up to 60%, but may be
close to or past their warranted operational lifetime of 2000 hours use. The
normal suit masses 100kg, which includes a current manufacture Fusion+ unit
and antigrav harness so that when activated it has zero weight. However, its
mass is still significant and should be taken into account.

The EVA-11 has full atmosphere support for the minimum 72 hour duration of
the power plant fuel, sufficient fluid reserves for 48 hours of normal
consumption and sanitary hookups for similar duration, provided they are
attached. Normal entry is accomplished from the back, takes only a few
minutes and can be done wearing normal clothes. However, a special EVA
undersuit ("suit skivvies") is recommended for long-duration use to avoid
chafing and blisters (-1DM to Intelligence from distraction after 6 hours
without them). 

Performance figures vary by manufacturer of EVA suits, but the EVA-11 is
capable of 2g acceleration, has continental range communications (nominal
range 3,000km), transponder, inertial navigation and autopilot, a full suite
of on-board environmental sensors including multispectrum visual and
discriminatory audio, built-in biomonitoring, self-sealing of punctures, and
a flexible outer shell for micrometeroid protection, with a rigid optically
compensated helmet (armor rating of 3). Note that non-penetrating impacts may
cause damage to the fabric, thermal distribution and insulation underlayers
of the suit. Acquire documentation of authorized repair of any apparent
damage to a used suit you wish to purchase. This will be listed in the
service record of the suit's log computer.

The wearer of an EVA-11 or equivalent suit takes a -2DM on all Dexterity
tasks due to the mass and thickness of the suit, and -3DM to Endurance tasks
if forced to use the suit in a gravity well (contragrav may negate the suit
weight so that you do not have to walk, but you still have to move the heavy
arms and legs of the suit under your own power). If they do not have Vac
suit-0 or better, any action taken in combat requires an Average task on
their default to avoid a fumble or mishap.

"If you want to make yourself look impressive and be easier to spot on ship's
sensors, I recommend the reflec option. It doesn't affect performance much,
and most outfits doing mining or construction with heavy lasers get their
EVA's that way from the factory. It adds some cost, but it's cheaper than
paying off death or dismemberment benefits."

****

Neural Activity Sensor-13
Developed from tech level 12 psionic helmet theory, the neural activity
sensor (NAS) was first used medically. It remotely detects the electrical
activity of a life form's central nervous system and classifies it according
to amount and complexity. The data system compares the activity pattern to
known types of life, especially intelligent life. The unit requires some
skill to properly calibrate and operate, but once normal lifeform readings
for an area are gathered, an on-board expert system aids classification and
interpretation of data.

Detecting complex neurological activity in a target area is handled as a fire
combat task with a short range weapon (which may be aimed). This works vs. a
specific area the size of an outdoor square. Scanning a 30x arc is a -3DM and
aiming does not apply. In areas with a high density of life, the NAS may be
set to a certain threshold, which corresponds more or less to the size of the
creature (within 50%).

The portable unit consists of a backpack and a handset with a retractable
parabolic dish focuser. The handset in fact is not attached to the backpack,
and it can be operated up to 100 meters distant, which further extends the
range. The NAS runs off a pair of .5kg battery packs, which last for up to 20
hours of use. An optional scanning head (2500Cr) will allow unattended use of
the NAS (with an effective skill of 6) and scans a 30x arc per turn (the -3DM
is taken into account). These units are not available on Sylea, but limited
manufacture on other worlds has been reported.

****

Grav belt-12
Contragrav technology has finally reached a point where personal "jump belts"
are possible. These consist of a body harness and several contragrav moduules
arrayed around the body, with a small left or right hand mounted control
stick near the waist, and a power pack usually mounted near the lower back.
To get the low thrust and fine precision required, a dedicated computer
interface is used in conjunction with sensitive inertial sensors. Otherwise
the belt would only be capable of full thrust (3g) or none at all. The grav
belt is controlled partially by use of the stick, and partially by the wearer
shifting their weight. While a grav belt can be used in zero-g conditions
(within 1 planetary diameter), the lower of zero-g or grav belt skill is used
to reflect the increased difficulty. Top speed of a normal grav belt is
around 280m/turn or 168kph, with a normal endurance of 1000 hours between
refuelings and maintenance.

Increases in technology will increase the performance and decrease the mass
of the belt, but operation remains largely the same. Typical options
available at all TL's include:

Voice interface - Allows hands-free control of the grav belt, but lacks the
fine precision of manual control. Adds 500Cr to cost.

Roadgrid interface - Required for use in Sylean metropolitan areas. Includes
voice interface and remote control to automatically take you to your
destination. Adds 1000Cr to cost.

Emergency parachute - In the event of catastrophic failure, the single-use
parachute will deploy fully at any altitude of 100 meters or more, and the
user will usually only suffer minor injury (1D damage, armor does not
protect). Adds 500Cr to cost and 3kg to mass.

Backup power supply - A high-discharge battery capable of powering the grav
belt for 30 seconds (6 turns) in the event the main power plant fails.
Standard feature, no extra cost or mass.

****

Companions-12
These are a fairly recent development of the robot-makers art, and fall more
under the heading of androids. They are fully anthropomorphic robots designed
around an artificial duplicate of the human (or other) skeleton and
musculature, giving them a very realistic appearance and movement pattern.
Linked by several Comm channels to a central computer, they are capable of
mimicing human behavior in a variety of fields with the exception of eating
and drinking. Note that this is not in any sense an artificial intelligence,
but a very adaptable expert program system. The high cost of development and
programming has limited the market for Companions, and it is expected they
will remain a luxury item for the forseeable future. Purchase price includes
a 1 year warranty on all parts and software, and yearly maintenance contracts
are 25KCr per year.

Companion-12 80 liters 80kg 250KCr

<sidebar>
In game terms, a Companion is detectable as artificial on an Average
intelligence or Engineering task, modified by any visual obscurement like
heavy clothing, helmet, etc. At higher TL's, the difficulty of this task will
increase. Stationary, they appear very lifelike, but when moving, the very
subtle differences become apparent to humans who have seen "the real thing"
all their lives. A Companion's stats are 7695-0. Intelligence represents the
flexibility of the programming. Education is irrelevant, as a Companion has
access to any information available on its central computer (or on the global
net if on Sylea). This computer has a rating of 4 for purposes of mimicing
human behavior, and a rating of 2 for general purpose tasks. The processor
inside the Companion is a specialized rating of 2, just for communications
with the central computer. Companions may be controlled by a virtual reality
harness, though this is not a standard option. Social Standing is always 0,
as they are not considered anything more than a fancy tool. For accomplishing
complex tasks or using skills, Companions can have any Dexterity skill at +1,
and any Intelligence skill at +2, so long as the task does not require
genuine creativity (note that "Acting" could be the Intelligence skill,
making the  "hey, it's a robot!" check have a -2DM. Normally a Companion
comes with up to 4 skills, and more can be acquired at the cost of 10-20KCr
each, as they are exceedingly complex programming tasks to develop, and any
skill which does not have a mass-market application will cost at least
100KCr, as it will be developed just for that single customer. If access to
its central computer is lost, the Companion is not capable of independent
action, and will usually remain stationary and power down except for
communications links.

Legally, Companions have no status, and like any other tool, the owner is
responsible for any misuse. So, while a Companion is sophisticated enough to
go out and buy your groceries, if it hits someone with your car, you will be
the one charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide. Current laws
regarding robotics are applied to Companions. No cases that touch on their
unique complexity have come to trial, but in this eventuality, changes or
modifications to existing law are expected.

For combat purposes, a Companion is treated as a character with the
appropriate skills. They have an inherent armor of 1 for purposes of being
impaired, although any damage may mar their synthetic flesh. They do not take
blunt trauma damage, and are only rendered "unconscious" when Endurance (i.e.
power source) is reduced to zero. They are immune to vacuum, water depths up
to 2 atmospheres, and can tolerate corrosive and insidious atmospheres for
several hours, though all of the above will affect their synthetic skin.
<end sidebar>
<end sidebar>

****

Guy "wildstar" Garnett,
Traveller Answer Team member

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:52:34 -0800
Subject: Re: The Only Explanation (SPOILER Alert)

On 16 Oct 96 at 14:29, Jamie Young spewed:

> PS Are the Aslan a major race? I hope so, I've always liked them.

No, they copied the drive of a crippled Solomani starship which 
landed on Kusyu.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
Traveller referee since 1978, Official USENet 
spokesperson for Imperium Games
- ---------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:14:03 EDT
Subject: Proposal to return decorations to T4

If I remember correctly, there was someone who was disappointed that
there is no longer any way to determine decorations for services in the
latest incarnation for Traveller.

I've been thinking a little bit about it, and came up with something that
might be useful if someone is interested again in adding decorations. 
So, here we go:

Roll for decorations: 6 - on 2D6, no modifiers.  NOTE: Only Army, Navy or
Marines eligible.

To expand on this, this is what you would have to roll to generate the
various medals of the past:

Medal                                                 Roll        
Benefit (for current term ONLY)

Meritorius Conduct Under Fire (MCUF)   6 -           +1 for Promotion 
Medal for Conspicuous Gallantry(MCG)    4 -           +2 for Promotion
Starburst for Extreme Heroism(SEH)        2 -           +3 for Promotion

In other words, when a player rolls for decoration, he makes one roll. 
If he rolls 6 - , he gets the MCUF, 4 - he gets the MCG, and 2 - the SEH.
 The benefit is received ONLY on the roll for the current term, and
cannot be used elsewhere.  The benefits are straight from Mercenary/High
Guard, with the exception in the SEH of not offering a +1 Soc for it 

A stickler I always hated in the past was that a person, if he rolled
quite well for a particular mission then for a decoration roll, could get
4 MCUFs a term.  Where was this guy in the universe, in the Traveller
version of DOOM or something?  The new option above allows the generated
character to get a decoration once a term now.

Of course, the above system are for just the military careers.  I'm still
thinking a little bit on how to fit this in with the others.  I'm also at
work and am working from memory here as I write this.

Comments?  Are the chances to get a decoration TOO high?  Maybe we should
change it to 4 -/ 3 -/ 2 - instead?  Should the +1 Soc be added back in
for the SEH?

Scott Galliand

NOTES: 

Decorations are detailed in Book 4: Mercenary and Book 5: High Guard, as
well as the MegaTraveller Player's Handbook, all once produced by GDW and
rights owned by Marc Miller.  There is no attempt by the author of this
post to impinge on the copyrights of either Marc Miller, Far Futures
Enterprises, or Imperium Games.




------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:55:08 +0100
Subject: 'Mystery' Backers of Imperium Games

I'm a bit behind on TMLs, so if anyone else has answered this in the
meantime, please forgive me.

The primary backers for Imperium Games are Sweet Pea Entertainments (hope
I've got the name right), based in California. This is why IG invoices have
suddenly started having California addresses on them.

HOWEVER, DON'T GO HASSLING SWEET PEA! They're purely handling the financial
side of things and have no information about where your particular hardback
order has got to - ALL Traveller-related things should still be directed
(via Joe Walsh if appropriate) to Ken and co. at Lake Geneva.

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:00:11 -0500
Subject: Re: IG Trademark/Copyright Policy

On 10/15/96 at 08:15 AM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
jw> Okay. Let's not argue about it. I'm just relaying what Ken Whitman
jw> said to me. I asked him what the official policy was regarding new
jw> rules, equipment, deck plans, etc. for Traveller which were posted
jw> to UseNET, TML, and/or a web site. And he told me exactly what is
jw> in the FAQ.

On 10/15/96 at 16:30:12 -0500,  eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) said:
er> I agree arguing won't do any good. However, this is an important
er> point that should be cleared up. A great deal of bad blood was
er> brewed over the actual and precieved polcies of TSR in this area. I
er> fully understand FFE and IG's need to protect their rights, but
er> there is a fine line to walk here between protecting their rights
er> and freezing out fan participation.
er>
er> YOU shouldn't try to state IG or FFE's policy in this area, because
er> you aren't offical. Ken and Marc *need* to do it!

What's to stop someone from posting something along the lines of:
___________
Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture Enterprises, and it is
Copyright (c) 1996.

The (web page's) author's work is copyrighted (c) 1996 by the author, and
although it is based on concepts founded in Traveller, the author has no
claim to any trademark/copyright owned by FarFuture Enterprises.

If you wish to include this material in a publication (paper, electronic or
otherwise), please contact the author at: author@service.com.  Otherwise
you may use this material for your own _personal_ use.
____________
Or something similar to the above?

We need a way to allow maintenance of FFE's Trademark and Copyright rights
without people having to turn over their ownership and rights for any
material they create over to FFE...  We need a way to express this
(textually) in such a way that both sides can live by.

I honestly do not believe IG or FFE are out to "get" anyone or are "orges"
in any way.  I understand they must protect their rights.  But, people
should _NOT_ have to forgo their legitimate rights in order to protect IG
and FFE's legitimate rights.  I realize the problem is that
people/companies are increasingly "Suit Happy".  Like the Dire Straits song
"Telegraph Road":

"First came the Churches, Then came the Schools,
 Then came the Lawyers, Then came the rules..."

A question for IG/FFE:

Is is possible for KW or MM to develop a statement that can be appended to
a web page that allows for the creator to retain his/her ownership of
original material posted/published, and re-state the Copyright/Trademark
ownership/rights of IG/FFE?

If not, I imagine that many people, myself included, would be disuaded from
posting/publishing much material...

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/



------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:52:20 -0400
Subject: Re: In Search of the Perfect Task System for Traveller 

David Joseph Smart has asked for a run-down of the FuRPiG mechanics,
to be posted to the list, so here it is.

Earl Wajenberg

- --------------------------------------------------------------------

The FuRPiG system runs on percentile dice and is centered on skills.
It is a non-commercial system invented for private use by Jim Burrows
(our GM) and contributed to by Dave Scheiffler, Andy Robinson,Jon Callas, 
Barry Tannenbaum, myself, and others over the last twelve years.  
(Yeah, I know, you haven't heard of any of us, but I still feel I gotta 
say it.)


DESIGN GOALS & APPROACH

The FuRPiG system does not require much mental arithmetic while in 
play.  The cost of this is a little mental arithmetic between sessions
to update character sheets.

FuRPiG uses an open-ended skill set.  It does not use character classes.
It has an objective mechanism for character improvement; the GM does 
not hand out experience points or the equivalents.

FuRPiG is based on Bushido, Runequest, Basic Role Playing/Worlds of Wonder 
and The Fantasy Trip (the GURPS precursor). It owes more to the Chaosium 
games (Basic Role Playing/WoW and RuneQuest) and Bushido than anything else.
I mis-wrote when I said Hero was involved. Steve Jackson and Jim Burrows had
the same goals. He grew TFT up and Jim grew BRP (or westernized Bushido) up.
The results are similar and the differences trace back to which system they
took as the archtype.


ATTRIBUTES

Your attributes determine how quickly you can improve your skills.

FuRPiG uses the following attributes:

Size (SIZ) - mass, at 10 kg per point
Strength (STR) - lifting power at 10 kg per point, in 1g
Endurance (END) - for saving throws and hit points
Speed (SPD) - for reaction time and action rank in combat
Agility (AGL) - for saving throws such as dodges in combat
Intelligence (INT) - for "idea rolls" (GM tips) and "left-brain" smarts
Psyche (PSY) - for "idea rolls", "right-brain" smarts, and psi points
Nerve (NRV) - mental endurance, for saving throws and nerve points
Luck (LUC) - the attribute of last resort
Appearance (APP) - physical attractiveness

That's a lot of attributes, but some a mere descriptors (the GM has never 
asked anyone, even our shapeshifting alien, to make a SIZ roll), and many 
are seldom called on.  END, AGL, INT, and PSY are the commonest saving 
throws.  They are also the commonest attributes used in skills.

Average starting attributes are about 10 (for an average human) or 12 
(for a heroic PC human).  There are modifiers for non-human races. 
(SIZ is an exception.  The human average is 8.)


LEARN RATES

Every skill has some attributes (usually two) assigned to it.  These 
determine your "learn rate" in that skill.  The learn rate is the 
average of the attributes, divided by 5.  So typical learn rates are 
2% or 3% on beginning characters.  

Example:

The attributes for Recoilless Pistol are SPD and AGL.  My character 
has SPD 16 and AGL 14.  This averages to 15.  15/5 = 3, so his 
learn rate in Recoilless Pistol is 3%.


USING SKILLS

To use a skill, you roll percentile dice.  If you roll equal to or 
less than the current level, you succeed.

Example:

My character has 85% in Recoilless Pistol.  I roll 53, so I manage
to hit what I've aimed at.


MODIFIERS

The GM can impose modifiers for favorable or unfavorable conditions.

Example:

I'm trying to shoot at someone while they are in partial cover.
The cover is worth -20%, so my 85% in Pistol is now effectively 65%.
I roll 74%.  I miss, though I would have hit without the modifier.


CRITICAL HITS AND MISSES

If your skill is XY and you roll 0X or lower, this is a "critical hit" 
and something nifty happens.

Examples:

I have 85% in the Brawling skill and roll 06.  I not only hit my opponent, 
he must roll vs. END to avoid being knocked out of action.

I have 85% in Tailoring and roll 06.  I produce a garment worth double
the usual value; or I produce it in half the time.

If your skill is XY and you roll 9X or higher, this is a "critical miss,"
and something awful happens.

Examples:

I have 85% in Brawl and roll 98.  I not only miss my swing, I crack my 
knuckles on the wall behind my opponent and take damage myself.

I have 85% in tailoring and roll 98.  The seams tear open the first time
the customer puts it on; it's only good for rags.


LEARN ROLLS

At the end of a session, you make learning rolls against every skill 
you used successfully.  You do this by rolling HIGHER than the current
level and, if you succeed, adding the learn rate.

Example:

I have 85% in Recoilless Pistol and used it successfully in the past 
session.  I make the learn roll and get 91.  My learn rate is 3%.
I now raise my Recoilless Pistol skill to 85 + 3 = 88%.

Note that there is no GM decision needed about "experience."

Note that it is easier to go up when you are a beginner with a low 
skill level, harder when you are an expert.  The actual result is the 
classic "learning curve," topping out at 99%.


TRAINING

To start a new skill, you must train in it.  You can make a learn roll 
for every week you spend at regular lessons.  If you have a teacher who 
is better than you, you use normal learn rates.  If you must train 
yourself or with a partner who is no better, you use your learn rate -1.
If you train with a teacher who is 90+%, you use your learn rate +1.

Example:

My learn rate in Physics is 4%.  I work through the books regularly 
by myself for a week.  If I make my learn roll, I go up 3%.

Next week, I study physics by going to a tutor.  He's better than me.
If I make my learn roll, I go up by 4%.

Next week, I switch tutors.  She's got physics at 93%.  If I make my 
learn roll, I go up by 5%.


USING ATTRIBUTES

In play, you usually use attributes for saving throws, e.g. dodging 
with AGL in a fight.  The GM determines whether the throw is easy, 
average, or hard.  For an easy save, roll percentile dice against 
5*attribute.  For average, 3*attribute.  For hard, 1*attribute.

Examples:

My AGL is 14.  To duck a punch in the "normal" way, I must roll 3 * AGL, 
or lower.  14 * 3 = 42, so a roll of 24 saves me.

To duck a punch from the rear, I must roll 1 * AGL or lower.  A roll of 
24 gets me a punch in the head.

I keep a small table on my character sheet of each attribute times 1, 3, 
and 5.  In a variant on this rule, I've GMed all attributes at the 3-times
level and added and subtracted modifiers as one does for skills.


IMPROVING ATTRIBUTES

If you use an attribute successfully in a session, you can improve it 
as you would a skill.  All attributes have a learn rate of 1 point.
You make the learn roll by rolling higher than 3*attribute.

Example:

My AGL is 14.  After some fancy dodging in a fight, I can try to raise
it at the end of the session.  3 * 14 is 42.  I roll 67, so I can raise
my AGL to 15.

No attribute can rise higher than double its starting value.  So if 
14 is my starting AGL, it can never go higher than 28.





------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #564
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 565

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Might Be...(longish)
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #553
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #553
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #555
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #556
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #556
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #555
         8. Uncharted space
         9. Those names...
        10. Re: Re: Bureaucrats Etc.
        11. Misjumps and far empires
        12. Nicean Creed
        13. Re: Re: 3,2,1...0
        14. Re: Traveller Costuming
        15. The 2D Task System v1.1 for GMs
        16. Starship Economics & Misjumps
        17. T4 Fuel efficiency
        18. Re: Traveller Costuming
        19. Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
        20. Ship Economics (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:57:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Might Be...(longish)

>...you have been to your bank asking for a loan for a Jayhawk.

in credits no less!

>...you have looked for a local branch of the psionic institute.

worse, you founded the local branch of the psionics insitute...but are the
only member!

Here's a couple more about everyone's favourite list topics too!

You may be a Traveller-afficionado if....

you worry everyday that some alien race may drop rocks on Earth

the country of your dreams has a feudal technocracy government!

:)

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 18:15 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #553

In-Reply-To: <9610142205.AA28247@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Sounds like a Hiver...

> "I'd go with the 200' concept rather than the 80' concept.  Having
> been on a number of boats in that size range I'll tell you 80' 
> in modern standards doesn't make much of a cargo ship, plus there 
> are large sections of the Falcon which we never see..."
>
> 200'!, this would make the Falcon come out to around 900 dtons.  
> After a bit of digging around I see that "The Art of the Empire 
> Strike Back" has
> the sound stage layout for the main hanger on Hoth.  Using the 
> measurements shown on this layout I calculate the length of the full 
> size Falcon mockup was just under 27 meters, 

>From the blueprints I've seen, the width of the cockpit is 8'. Assuming 
the drawing in the _Star Wars Technical Journal_ is correct, this gives 
a size of about 80'x60' (24m x 18m).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 18:15 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #553

In-Reply-To: <9610142205.AA28247@NS.MPGN.COM>

> From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: M. Falcon

Sounds like a Hiver...

> "I'd go with the 200' concept rather than the 80' concept.  Having
> been on a number of boats in that size range I'll tell you 80' 
> in modern standards doesn't make much of a cargo ship, plus there 
> are large sections of the Falcon which we never see..."
>
> 200'!, this would make the Falcon come out to around 900 dtons.  
> After a bit of digging around I see that "The Art of the Empire 
> Strike Back" has
> the sound stage layout for the main hanger on Hoth.  Using the 
> measurements shown on this layout I calculate the length of the full 
> size Falcon mockup was just under 27 meters, 

>From the blueprints I've seen, the width of the cockpit is 8'. Assuming 
the drawing in the _Star Wars Technical Journal_ is correct, this gives 
a size of about 80'x60' (24m x 18m).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 18:15 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #555

In-Reply-To: <9610150312.AA29011@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 14:26:12 +1000
Subject: Traveller Timeline

     Sorry I can't find the URL for that timeline I was quoting, but 
it's called "A Traveller Timeline" and I'm holding a print off in my 
hand. >>
     
Try

http://www.thehub.com.au/~mickb/timeline.html

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 18:15 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #556

In-Reply-To: <9610150645.AA29274@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: The only explanation! 

On 15 Oct 1996 Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>      The Solomani as a geneered species! Whaddya say? Would this dent 
the 
>      Solomani supremacists or what? 

[snicker]  I LOVE the idea. :)  This could work in a campaign.  It could 
easily be as important a discovery as that of the Droyne being the 
Ancients. :) >>

Joe? There's a couple of guys from SolSec outside who'd like a word with 
you...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 18:15 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #556

In-Reply-To: <9610150645.AA29274@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG FAQ, 10/14/96

On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT 
paying
> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of 
this
> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and 
have the
> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along 
and
> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?

Not necessarily.  *FFE* could come along and use it.  You see, you are 
building on AND REFERENCING a property of FarFuture Enterprises.  
Without FFE, you wouldn't HAVE a product/article/whatever.  

Why?  Without enforcing those rules, FFE could LOSE it's Trademark and 
Copyrights!  That's the way the law works. >>

Are you absolutely sure about this? This sounds very wrong. First of 
all, you can't lose copyright. You *can* lose trademarks if you're not 
careful, which is why IG/FFE insist on being mentioned, but they don't 
automatically get to own something just 'cos it says Traveller on it.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 18:15 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #555

In-Reply-To: <9610150312.AA29011@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 14 Oct 96 14:26:12 +1000
Subject: Traveller Timeline

     Sorry I can't find the URL for that timeline I was quoting, but 
it's called "A Traveller Timeline" and I'm holding a print off in my 
hand. >>
     
Try

http://www.thehub.com.au/~mickb/timeline.html

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:16:40 GMT
Subject: Uncharted space

>By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
>territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your adventurers
>to particpate in defining theteritory.

        I suppose it could be a great idea (I applauded the same story when
it was told about Foreven in Imperiallines 1), but, personally, if I
purchase something which charts a Sector, I would prefer to found stats for
the whole Sector. I have refereed CT/MT for years, and found no need for any
blank space in my charts... when I want to develop a new area, I just use my
data on a suitable region. This means my players are in a Parallel Traveller
Universe... so what? Before the arrival of the net it was very difficult to
found CT/MT stuff here (Spain), so I made half a dozen alternate sectors...
a friend of mine is still refereeing an alternate Deneb sector with a few
canon worlds in it, even though now we have an *official* map.
        About the adventurers participating in defining the territory...
well, in the aggregate it could seem that players define it, but if you
leave a specific area blank, there will be a thousand Parallel maps in a
year. If after that IG/FFE (some way) choose one to be the canon, then 999
universes will be non-canon. So, for 999 groups of players, the effect would
be exactly the same as if IG/FFE produced canon stats for the area. I would
prefer to know, from the beginning, there is a canon I can look for if I
want (or ignore).
        As somebody said, no matter how you do it, I will buy it, but
please... whole sector maps look very nice ;-)

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico
Universidad de Alicante
03071-Alicante (Spain)
                                                   
Tlf: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
     (34) 6 5903614


------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:17 GMT
Subject: Those names...

        Years ago, when I bought GDW's The Flaming Eye (my favorite
adventure), I found a planet called MURCIA in the Massilia sector (my
favorite sector). Funny, its a province of Spain just south of mine.
Unfortunately, it was so funny that made impossible to keep my players
attention when they got to the world. Imagine you live in New York and
arrive to a planet called Fifth Avenue, or Harlem.
        The other day, wandering on the net, I found a program with * I
think * official maps for, among other sectors, Corridor. Funny, in one
subsector there was a Benidorm (a small town twenty km north of here), an
Igualada (farther north, and smaller) and a Gaspar (a very common spanish
name). Imagine a subsector with a Washington, a Boston and a Peter. I think
I am not going to referee anything there :-).
        So, if IG produces maps for different ages in the Imperium, please,
please, it would be nice if real maps are not used... not that explaining
all those Solomani names far away from Terra is difficult (it is), just to
avoid my players laughing at me instead of with me ;-)
        Btw, have other countries' maps been also used?
- -------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee Update in progress
- -------------------------

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 13:23:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Bureaucrats Etc.

>> here are the CT/MT/TNE careers I've converted to T4.  
>
>Question for you.  When you did your conversions, did you just alter the
amount of 
>skills a character can get in a term (i.e. 1 per year instead of 1 per
term), or did you 
>make other changes?  

Altered the amount of skills, and also flexed the skills somewhat to account
for the new skill list.

As a house rule, I allow all 'non-ranked' careers (such as entertainer) to
have the same extra skills that Scouts get.  I figure that not giving them
this was an oversight of IG's part.  (Add that to your list, Joe.)  Ideally,
I like all careers to get about the same number of skills, just different
skills.  This eliminates the tendency of munchkin players (such as my high
school students) to choose careers based on total number of skills.

------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:42:03 GMT
Subject: Misjumps and far empires

        After all this technical discussion on jump theory, I wanted just to
post an old idea I used a couple of times, just to see if anybody thinks it
could be compatible with some theory.
        Imagine jumps are affected by some indeterminacy of non-linear
nature, which forces the drives to be more and more complicated for each
level of jump (1 to 6) and that explodes over that... jump-7 and superior
are possible, they are just unpredictable (I think the original rules for
misjumps allowed up to Jump-36, or am I confused?)
        Then, what happens with misjumped ships that do not re-appear. Maybe
they went too far... far and far away from charted space. But hey, the Six
Races have been jumping for Millenia, with all kind of ships... SURE there
are pocket (or not-so-pocket) empires far away in the galaxy... and, with a
little astrography, some of them will know where charted space are... and a
few of them will be launching expeditions to re-contact.
        Just take the Coreward border of charted space (e.g.). imagine you
travel six or seven sectors to Core... (an exploration mission for the
Regency / a Zhodani Core expedition / a misjump): you find Vargr, Hhkar
(ain't they funny?), bizarre races... and, suddenly, The Alliance. Starting
from a colony ship which misjumped and contacted by a few other misjumped
crews over the millenia, they built a pocket empire whith all the familiar
races present, but a totally different political framework.. and some
strange technology developments. And they wanna know of their ancient homes!
Looks like an interesting campaign.
        Is it plausible? What do you travellers think? 
- -----------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee Sourcebook in progress
- -----------------------------

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 13:44:09 GMT
Subject: Nicean Creed

>        The Nicean Creed is slightly more recent, when some emperor or such
>got tired of all the inconsistencies between various various "bishops,"
>"apostles," etc., and forced them to sit down in a city called Nicea and
>explain what exactly being a Christian meant. That's why it starts out "We
>Believe ..."

True enough, but there was a lot of politics involved, power struggles
between bishops, nobles, etc.  Whether you believe that the will of God came
through is a personal choice, of course.

There's a fun little card game called Credo (published by Chaosium) in which
the players take the role of factions within the early church, trying to get
their version of the creed accepted in council.  The three priests I've
shown/played the game with have liked it, but some devout laypeople have
claimed it is sacreligious.  Bob (Rev. Peele if you're being formal) figures
that if you are secure in your faith you can enjoy it as just a game; of
course, he also says that all the trickery and politicking are old news to
anyone who has studied at a decent seminary.

I've been tinkering with this 'future religion' project some more.  I think I
will use the 9 questions out of Runequest as a basis for describing
religions/sects.  That is, I will try to give a description of the religion
from the viewpoint of a believer.  I will also try to include some current
religions, if I can find people willing to write capsule summaries of their
faith for others to read.  More later...

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 13:50:39 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: 3,2,1...0

>If we continue along that line of thought, then Grandfather's manipulations
>over the last 300,000 years assume even greater meaning.

AHA!

The secret is out.  Grandfather is a Hiver.  Who else would be so good at
manipulating?  And what a neat misdirection with the Droyne, too.  

No, that's still too obvious.  After all, when manipulation is involved
everyone suspects the Hivers.  But no one would think of suspecting their
non-sentient burrowers (sno? snohl?  something like that).  I figure they are
the real Ancients! :-)

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:20:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

At 10:08 AM -0400 10/16/96, Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus wrote:
>    The only place I am stuck is how to do the combat ribbons.
>Is there any military person out there who can tell me how the
>real ones are done? Any suggestions on how to do a mock up?
>They just look like a bar with different coloured bits of cloth. But
>what do you use as the backing and how do you get it to stick
>to the uniform right?

Get a couple of those cheap plastic "My name is..." badges to scavenge the
mounting pins from.  You can also cut the plastic into rectangular strips
and then wrap them in cloth.  Use superglue to mount the cloth to the
plastic, making sure to glue on the underside only so you don't discolor
the cloth.  If you go to a sewing specialty store, you can probably find
small pieces of appropriately patterned cloth, ask them for quilting
supplies.  After fastening the cloth, superglue the mounting pin to the
back.

One final note - when someone has multiple ribbons, they are mounted in
rows on a strip - like so

- ----------------------------
+ medal1 + medal2 + medal3 +
- ----------------------------

as one unit with one mounting pin.


Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

Incoming fire always has the right of way.

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:43:45 -0400
Subject: The 2D Task System v1.1 for GMs

Glenn has done an excellent job of designing and explaining his new task
system.  For all refs who are considering using this system (as I am), I
have re-orged his work into a single, simple, referee sheet.  Enjoy!

- --------cut here------8><------cut here----------

             The 2D Task System
                    v1.1
          A simple task roll system
   compatible with Marc Miller's Traveller (T4)

1. Determine base target number (BTN):

    Difficulty Level        BTN
        Impossible           06-
        Staggering           16-
        Formidable           26-
        Difficult            36-
        Average              46-
        Easy                 56-
   
2. Modify the BTN:

   2a.  Each skill level adds 2. 
   2b.  For each characterisic point above/below 7, add/subtract 1. 

3. Roll two dice in succession (a tens dice followed by a ones dice),
providing a two-digit number between 11 and 66.  The task is
successful if the player rolls below the target number.  A roll of
two sixes is a spectacular failure, and two ones is a spectacular
success - even if the target number is below 11. 

Notes:

1) For 0-level skill tests, increase the Difficulty by one level.
2) For Multiple Actions, increase the difficulty two levels for each
extra action.

Glenn Grant <pawn@cam.org>

- --------cut here------8><------cut here----------

 James Garriss                   | "I think there is a world market
 jpg@langley.mitre.org           |  for maybe five computers."
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss  |  Thomas Watson (IBM Chairman 1943)

  


------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:59:19 -0700
Subject: Starship Economics & Misjumps

Question 1:

Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?

This means that once every 36 jumps you're going to lose 
yourself.  Add to that the fact that the density of stars
in the "canon" universe is about .5/ parsec means that
your ship will jump to an empty parsec about once every
72 jumps.  

Now, your average Free Trader jumps twice a month with 
a month or two off per year for about 20 jumps a year.
This means that on average once every 4 years your 
Free Trader is going to jump into an empty parsec and 
and have no way home.  I don't know about the people
on the ships but there's no dang way a bank is going 
to give a 40 year loan on something that has a tendency
to vanish after 4 years.

Any one have comments on how they handle this issue?

What do you do if your characters jump into an empty parsec?

Question 2:
When a trader ship mis-jumps (not if, see above), how do
you handle things like freight (due some port off there),
High and Low passengers?

Pretty much anything I've come up with that's reasonable as
far as the passengers/shippers is going to break the 
account of a Free Trader.

Thoughts?

Douglas

------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:28:19 -0800
Subject: T4 Fuel efficiency

Yesterday I finally broke out my copy of T4, and started learning how to
use the QSDS.  It seems to be a nice easy to use system, a bit limited, so
I can't wait for the system which allows you to use other than standardized
modules.

The fuel effiecency for the jump drive seems to be the same, no problem
there.  What has me wondering is the effeciency of the Thruster plates.  If
I understand everything correctly they don't use fuel, they use power.  Now
say I've got a ship that produces 1000Mw, it will use the same amount of
fuel in a year, wether or not I us the thruster plates.  Is this correct?

I'm asking because Classic and Mega both use a certain amout of fuel per
time period for there manuever drives.

			Thanks,
			    Zane

Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator
healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast
healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing
Modern Micro-Armor, and Warhammer (all settings) Wargaming



------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:02:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

>    The only place I am stuck is how to do the combat ribbons.
>Is there any military person out there who can tell me how the
>real ones are done? Any suggestions on how to do a mock up?
>They just look like a bar with different coloured bits of cloth. But
>what do you use as the backing and how do you get it to stick
>to the uniform right?

In the US Navy they are about a quarter of an inch high, and about an inch
wide.  They are three to a row, with any odd number of one or two centered
on the top.  I would recommend fabricating them either with multi-coloured
cloth with thin strips ranging from 1/8th to 1 inch, this would be
difficult I imagine.  The easiest way is to either get your hands on some
real ones, or do them up on the computer, print them out on a colour
printer, and paste them onto a thick piece of cardboard.


>    Let it all dry completely. When you are done stitch it onto your
>surface with black thread by sewing through the inked in bits. It forms
>a firm attachment and the thread isn't visible.
>    I can't say how well it washes!

  You might consider a permanant black felt-tip marker.  I'n my time in
uniform, I found one to be an invaluable asset.  If you do it right, it
starts out dark, but will lighten after several washings.

			Zane in OR

Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator
healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast
healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing
Modern Micro-Armor, and Warhammer (all settings) Wargaming



------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:08:40 -0800
Subject: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

I find myself in the need of the sub-sector names for A to D of the
"Beyond" sector.  I have the data off of the Paranioa Press web page, but
it doesn't list the sub-sector names.

			Thanks,
			    Zane

Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator
healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast
healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing
Modern Micro-Armor, and Warhammer (all settings) Wargaming



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 15:44:28 -0400
Subject: Ship Economics (long)

Starship Economics in Traveller
 
A little while ago, Phil McGregor (aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au) wrote:
> So, in our standard example, it seems that it is impossible to turn a profit
> when carrying cargo or low passage types! Yes, I know that the system allows
> a Captain/Owner to buy and sell cargoes for themselves and that this
> potentially allows a greater profit being turned - but it seems lunatic to
> allow interstellar commerce to be carried out on such a basis.

This has always been a "feature" of Traveller, and you'll notice that the
standard Classic Traveller starships suffer from the same problem.  Since
your analysis neglected the cost of annual maintainance (a lost month of
revenues, during which salaries and mortgage payments must still be met),
the situation is even worse than you describe.

In at least one published article, Marc Miller mentioned that the
unprofitability of the basic small commercial starships was an intentional
feature, to encourage role-playing and interesting situations.

The Cr 1000 per ton "standard" rate for freight is the rate that large
companies charge their customers.  It's set low enough that the independents
can't make money hauling freight at this rate, but high enough that a big
company can make money carrying freight in large, efficient ships.

For a PC-owned Free Trader, it's just a starting point.  No matter what the
standard rate is, if your ship is the only one it port (and the last ship
was three weeks before that), you can charge whatever the market will bear.

Likewise, armed ships, or ones equipped with fuel purification plants, are
useful when doing trade exploration, or when frequenting locations that
don't get ships very often.  Free traders live on this sort of marginal
trade - again, charging all the traffic will bear.

Finally, the referee and the PCs are supposed to be using the trade and
commerce system as a source of adventure ideas and other "hooks" that lead
to interesting encounters.  It's not only possible, it's pretty easy for a
group of PCs with the right skills to consistently turn a profit using the
trade and commerce system.


The "standard" rates _do_ make sense, if you think about it.  Here's why:

I doubt that it's an Imperial Rate Commission that sets them; more likely the
"standard" rates are set by the large transport corporations:
megacorporations like Tukera or Imperiallines, sector-based operations like
Al Morai, and even down to multi-subsector-based outfits like Oberlindes Lines.

These companies (and their banks) buy _large_ starships (starting in the
5,000 to 10,000 ton range, and running up into the hundreds of thousands of
tons) for hauling freight.  At these sizes, about 75%
of the ship can be devoted to freight, and the break-even point is with the
hold about 75% full.  To put it another way, if a ship costs 10 to
12 million credits a month to operate (including loan payments), and with a
full cargo hold could produce revenues of around 15 million credits a month.
That's a decent return, and (provided that I could convince a bank that I
can keep the hold full) many banks would be happy to write a loan for it.

Will these ships be full?

You bet - they'll be well over 90% full.  The majority of the space in the
cargo hold of one of these monsters will be reserved for important customers
who sign long-term contracts to ship large quantities of goods.  These
customers want stable prices, reliable delivery time; Tukera can provide
this (just sign a 10-year contract for a minimum of 1000 displacement tons a
month) at low rates - the "standard rate" of Cr 1000 per displacement ton.

Sixty to nintey percent of the ship's cargo hold will be filled with this
contract freight, and it's these contracts (as well as the proven ability to
get extensions or additional contracts) that will convince the bank to put
up the money for the starship.

What isn't filled by the contracted freight, Tukera's (or Al Morai, or
Oberlides) trade department will fill.  The large transport companies employ
agents in every major port - and the job for these people is to fill the
rest of the old with trade goods that their counterparts at the ship's
destination can sell for a nice profit.  And you can be assued that the
transport companies can afford to employ good agents.

What does this mean for a free trader?

First of all, all of the companies that regularly need to ship something
have probably got their transportation needs under contract to places like
Tukera.  The only cargoes and freight available to the independents
is "overflow" (for example, excess production that Oberlindes doesn't have
space to take this week), small lots, and and shady deals that the major
corporations don't want to touch.

Some of this stuff is "rush" business that'll pay a premium to get it
shipped _today_ instead of next week or next month when Tukera _can_ take
it.  Some of it isn't, and will only want to pay standard rates.

Off of the beaten path, it's only the free traders competing amoung
themselves and the subsector-sized lines (outfits that operate a couple to a
couple of dozen ships, almost all under 1000 tons).  The prices here would
be higher, and more volatile, following the laws of supply and demand.


A little while ago, Phil McGregor (aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au) wrote:
> The obvious initial problem is with the space taken up by the completely
> unprofitable (as per standard rules, anyway) Fuel Refining plant and 
> Armament. [...]  (page #7, T4 Rules) "Everything Is Driven By 
> Economics" - yet there is no economic benefit for a Free Trader carrying 
> a Fuel Purification plant or any armament.

Depends ... if you're doing trade exploring (where you can't count on
finding someone to trade with, let alone a common medium of exchange and
refined fuel), then the purification plant is invaluable.

Similarly, the weaponry may well be needed to save your life.

> What cost increase should apply?

THis is an opportunity for role-playing.  Have your player characters ask a
price, and justify it with their ship's capabilities.  They can (and should)
charge all the market will bear.


Consider the "standard" designs in T4 to be standard exploration and player
character ships, intended to go "into harm's way" and/or "where no-one has
gone before (recently, anyway).".  If you want to run a campaign based on
the idea of the PCs being the crew of a profit-making commercial
ship operating in civilized space you can, but (as you correctly point
out), you'll need some new ship designs.

While you can't build truly large ships with QSDS, the 1000 to 5000 ton
hulls, combined with the 20% discount, make it possible to build a ship that
could be operated at a profit.  If corporate politics and intrigue are your
cup of tea, go for it!  The design goal would be to deliver the largest
amount of cargo hold space for the lowest cost (both in terms of the cost of
the ship, and the crew to run it).

> I would suggest that no commercially viable vessel should exist that is
> not capable, as a stripped down, no frills, version (like the FT 1.2) of
> breaking even running with at least 50-60% of each element of revenue
> producing tonnage running full.

Huh?  Why do you need to break even with such a low utilization; I'm not
even sure it can be done.  I also don't think that (for example) current-day
airlines, steamship lines, or railroads consider that they have to break
even with half-empty trains, planes, or ships.

> Furthermore, I would suggest that any vessel carrying "extras" should be
> able to charge a premium for their services

Sure, why not?  But it's a little futile to try to give rules for every
possible combination of options and circumstances.  Some shippers may be
concerned with piracy; others not.  Some may care that a J2 ship can deliver
the goods in half the time as a J1 ship over the same route; some may not.


Pete Cummings wrote:
> The following expenses are not usually included as I recall
> Food and drink for passengers and crew

This is included in the life support charge for the cabins they occupy.  The
"life support" cost is mainly for consumables (ie: food, drink, and air).
Replacement of worn components and other long-term maintainence is handled
during the ship's annual maintainance.

> Convoy Escort Fees

These aren't "normal" charges, and in a convoy situation where fees are
assesed, this would be handled in the course of role-playing the situation.
The PCs can role-play their meeting with the convoy's Commodore, and based
on that, the fee the ship is charged; they can then attempt to pass this
charge on to their own customers.

> Tariffs, Duties, Taxes, and other government fees (avoided when smuggling)
> Brokerage fees

Included in the trade and commerce system if the players are hauling cargo
on their own behalf.  If they are hauling freight (for someone else), these
fees would be paid by the owner of the freight, and not the PCs.

It's not a bad role-playing "hook" to have the PCs wind up being responsible
for the fees on a high-ticket piece of freight - perhaps because the owner
is fictitious, or otherwise can't be located.

> Delivery charges
> Loading/unloading charges (or, perhaps, heavy equipment rental)

These are included in the trade and commerce system if the players are
hauling cargo on their own behalf.  If they are hauling freight for someone
else, then the owner (the shipper or the consignee) would be responsible for
these.  Sometimes, the ship will have to (or will be talked into) performing
the loading, delivery, and unloading themselves; again, this would have to
be worked out in role-play; presumably the PCs would remember to ask to be
compensated for these services.

> Furniture, curtains, linens, little bars of soap, complimentary towels,
> etc etc for passenger and crew staterooms
> Plates, silverware, condiments, finger bowls, napkins, dishwashing liquid,
> plumbing fixtures (where do they keep the drinking water?), all the stuff
> found in kitchens and dining rooms
> Oxygen, Nitrogen, Other chemicals for air or waste processing, Other
> consumables besides the fuel itself, hookups while docked, septic tank
> pumping, waste removal.

All of the consumable items (soap, dishwashing liquid, drinking water,
oxygen, nitrodgen, and other stuff) is included in the life support fee.
The rest (furnture, curtains, plumbing fixtures, etc) is part of the cost of
buying the ship in the first place.  Replacement and wear-and-tear is
covered in the ship's annual maintainance cost.

> Insurance, Delivery bonds, Lawyers' fees, registration fees, inspection
> fees, bank fees, ATM fees, etc. 

Most of this would be subsumed into the mortgage payment or the subsidy
payment, paid during annual maintainance, or built into the trade and
commerce rules.  This is one area where worlds can differ, and the referee
can really sock unsuspecting PCs with large unexpected charges.  Call it
an adventure hook, and resolve it through role-playing.


"Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au> wrote:
> I have some ideas of layout as a result. Suffice it to say that, if you
> assume foldaway beds (like those in Pullman cabins on RRs), then there's
> plenty of room for two!

I've always imagined that Traveller staterooms were rather like the sleeping
rooms on the railroad, as well.  Traveller staterooms are a bit bigger than
railroad sleeping compartments, but you're in them for a week at a time,
instead of a couple or three days.

> I just worked out the stats for a basic no-frills 1G, J1 1000 ton merchie
> (no weapons, no refining), all cargo and no passenger capacity - leaves
> 757 tons of space for cargo, and the damn thing *still* can't run at less
> than 72% and even "break even" at 1000 Cr per ton.

Sounds about right to me, for the smallest possible ship to play in the "big
leagues"; Tukera and their competitors probably run these on the smaller
feeder branches.  If the megacorps can't fill one of these to at least 75%
on a regular basis, then there's probably not enough business for them to
take an interest in the market.

> OK. Do *you* know any bank in creation that will lend an 8 year old 32 MCr
> (around 64 million US$ if previous hints are correct) on no collateral
> other than the ship he buys with it?

Nowhere does it state that the particular PC who recieves the ship benefit
was the original owner; it just states that the PC _now_ owns a ship that's
30 years old and has had 3/4ths of the mortgage paid off.

The ship may have changed hands several times - with the bank's permission,
the new owner could "assume" (take over making payments on) the original
mortgage (presumably, the purchaser also pays the previous owner some amount
of money for the existing equity in the ship).

> If you delink the roll on the table and the age of the ship you get a
> better possible outcome. 

You can go ahead and do this, but I've found that having an older ship has
benefits for role-playing, and the way it is written makes considerably more
sense.

> This means that a 38 year old Captain can have a 30 year old ship
> and *still* be paying 1/240th of the value of it - even tho we're told
> financing a second hand vessel is difficult - as if *he* bought it 30
> years before, at age 8. Obviously not on. Sorry, won't wash.

Huh?  Why'd he have to buy it at age 8?  He probably bought it just a few
years ago, from it's previous owner.  If our Captain can convince the bank
that he's responsible, he'll be able to assume the existing mortgage on the
ship, and this will cost only a few tens of thousands of credits (for insurance,
paperwork, "points", and the like), plus whatever the previous owner wants
for her existing equity in the ship (certainly less than the cost of a new
ship *)

* Let's take a hypothetical 35Mcr ship - new.  At 30 years old, it's useful
lifespan is 3/5ths over (at least according to the Starship blue book); the
ship's value is considerably lower than 35MCr - maybe around 14Mcr.  The
original owner - after 30 years of mortgage payments - probably owns
slightly more than half the ship (the rest has gone to the bank in interest,
fees, and other stuff).  So, our captain can (if he's acceptable to the
bank's loan officer) pick up a used ship for under 8Mcr (the previous
owners more-than-half share of the ship's current value, plus assorted
fees).  It's 30 years old, but it'll also be all paid off in 10 years.
If he tried to do this with a _new_ ship, it'd cost around twice that, though
his monthly payment would be lower, because the remaining cost would be
spread out over 40 years.

Since a ship's nominal useful lifespan is about 50 years (though with care,
ships can be made to last two or three times this long), ships over about 10
years old can't be financed.

If you want to, I'd suggest allowing the PCs to exchange _two_ ship
results for a 1/4 equity share in a new ship, or a single ship result for 10
years worth of payments and 10 years of age on the ship.  Thus, with 4 rolls
your players could own a 40-year-old ship free and clear, or with 8 rolls
(not likely) they could own a new ship free and clear.

> So, what I suggest is this. Each time a ship is rolled, it indicates that
> *somehow* the new owner has managed to acquire 1/4 (around 8 MCr) worth of
> *equity* in a *new* version of said ship ... and that Repayments are based
> on the *remainder*.

You can do that, if you want to drastically improve the profitability of a
standard free trader.  But that wasn't the intent of the rules, and I think
it makes slightly less sense - remember, the stock free trader isn't
profitable under "standard" rates, so that the PCs will have to do something
interesting and role-playing oriented to turn a profit.

> Makes the whole system much more flexible without putting the players into
> a deep financial hole!

As a referee, you probably _want_ them in a deep finanacial hole.  It makes
them so much easier to manipulate.  If you _do_ want them to own the ship
free and clear, design an adventure around it (for example, the Classic
Traveller _Rescue on Ruie_ adventure is designed around just that purpose).

It's a lost more interesting to do these things via role-playing than by
rule-playing and giving things to the PCs by the throw of the dice.


eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
> After all the players in the group have mustered out they can pool their
> banked credit and buy into any kind of ship they want..or can find.  The
> players have to roleplay finding a ship, getting a loan for the remainder
> of the ship's worth, and outfitting/upgrading the ship.

Great!  It should require some good role-playing and shrewd decisions to
wind up with a ship free and clear.  The referee needs to work with the PCs
to determine what kind of campaign they'd like to play, and ensure that
things come out that way, even if it means altering some of the mustering
out benefits, or instituting a system like yours.

> About used ships...  Most of the time the players will buy an *old* ship..a
> "fix'er upper"..from a ship broker or an independent
> shipyard.  I've also had the players "salvage/recover" a lost ship, to
> which they are granted title for all or most of the purchase price.

Yes - tailoring initial adventures around the acquisiton of a ship is a good
idea, and a great way to get the campaign rolling.

> Oh yes, Ship prices!  I use a 100 year lifetime model for the ships and 50
> years for most of their equipment, and depreciate everything straight line

I use a 50 year model for both ships and equipment, and do the same thing.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #565
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 566

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Re: DGP Announcement
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #554
         3. Re: PART TWO:  Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!
         4. Re: CSC Info from Greg Porter
         5. RE:Proposal to return decorations to T4
         6. Re: TNE Sectors
         7. Re: Re: 3,2,1...0
         8. T4 Forms
         9. RE: CSC Info from Greg Porter 
        10. Re: [T96#556] JimV's comments on IG/FFE tms
        11. Re: Might Be...(longish)
        12. IG's New Copyright Policy
        13. Re: IG Trademark/Copyright Policy
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #556
        15. DGP COPYRIGHTS
        16. Auction Update
        17. Auction Update

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 16:26:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: DGP Announcement

traveller@NS.MPGN.COM,Internet writes:
>Yes, the "Starship Operator's Manual," when are we going to see volume 2.
><grin>

I'll see if I can dig out the rest of the communications rules, those that
didn't get into volume one.  I think I still have the full draft for that
chapter...

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 16:29:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #554

>The phrase used in the book was something to the effect of they did not know
what 
>range it had. This seems to indicate either sloppy science, or it was
something they really 
>did not understand

This was often the case in the 19th century, and still is when you are
willing to blow up a few prototypes. I can live with it as being an observed
effect, imperfectly understood.

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:31:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: PART TWO:  Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!

I like the numbers.  I'm working on a ship combat system using the
T4 task system, and noticed the same problem talked about on the
tml.

The major problem is that I want my system to be compatible with T4,
not with my house rules for T4 (even if the whole TML adopts your
fix :-)

Any word from IG on this issue?  Do they see a problem with it, and
if so, wouldd they do anything, or is it too fundamental a change?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 16:40:09 GMT
Subject: Re: CSC Info from Greg Porter

> the vehicle rules cover design up to and including TL15

Are the vehicle design rules a simpler version of FF&S (like QSDS)?  The full
version?  A different system altogether?  Is there anywhere we can get an
advance look?

If the new rules are a different system altogether, I think I'll
(reluctantly) give T4 the old heave-ho.  I'm already somewhat disappointed
that the starship combat rules don't fit seamlessly into the vehicle/personal
combat rules.  (Not that I run a lot of combat, but I hate having to
improvise when the players want to open the airlock with a plasma gun.)

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 17:03:59 -0400
Subject: RE:Proposal to return decorations to T4

I always liked the part where you could increase the difficulty in the
survival roll, and take it as DM for the decoration roll, ie
volunteering for missions, taking extra risks to get a medal.  (Of
course I can't remember if T4 has a survival roll, I've been busy and
haven't really read the book very carefully)

Lewis Roberts
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why Don't Cannibals Eat Clowns?  lewis@chara.gsu.edu
A:They taste funny!               
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------   
 

------------------------------

From: rellio@PO-Box.McGill.CA (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:05:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TNE Sectors

David Joseph Smart wrote:

>From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:28:28 -0700
>Subject: Re: TNE Sectors
>
>Rob Prior wrote:
>> I've typed in the official GDW TNE sectors. The files are available as part
>> of the Imperial Grand Survey software package at:
>>
>> http://www.interlog.com/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html
>
>But they're for a Mac and I've got an IBM clone. Waaahhh!


        I'm a mac user but I got a 404 file not found error when I went
looking at that URL.  Has it recently changed?



------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:12:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re: 3,2,1...0

At 01:50 PM 10/16/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>If we continue along that line of thought, then Grandfather's manipulations
>>over the last 300,000 years assume even greater meaning.
>
>AHA!
>
>The secret is out.  Grandfather is a Hiver.  Who else would be so good at
>manipulating?  And what a neat misdirection with the Droyne, too.  
>
>No, that's still too obvious.  After all, when manipulation is involved
>everyone suspects the Hivers.  But no one would think of suspecting their
>non-sentient burrowers (sno? snohl?  something like that).  I figure they are
>the real Ancients! :-)
>
>
Once again, the massive deception campaign institued by Terran cats bears
fruit.  ALL races including the Droyne are the result of the eternal cat
population's attempt to create the perfect "pet" Race....

Of course the Vargr and the Aslan were created to make the bestest sitcom
ever...



------------------------------

From: Jeff Freeman <jfreeman@chrysalis.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:18:28 -0700
Subject: T4 Forms

Hello.  I haven't played Traveller in a few years but when I saw T4 I 
snatched it right up... then (coincidentally) received email from two 
people in the Dallas area looking for Traveller players.  We're meeting 
Monday for the first time and if all goes well, I'll be a regular 
Traveller player again.  In the meantime I feel like I've been cramming 
for a test, reading T4 and trying to remember and un-remember how to play 
Traveller.

Anyway... I'm wanting some help designing new forms and redesigning old 
forms for the game.  I'll post WWW address when I get the things finished 
so anyone who wants to can take a look and offer criticism.

Specifically, I'm breaking the character sheet into *three* seperate 
forms:  1)  A character generation worksheet (used to make the char and 
then discarded - with a step-by-step guide and spaces to make notes along 
the way), 2)  a character sheet (basically the same thing as in T4, but 
redesigned to my own personal preference) and a combat card (3"x5" sheet 
with combat-related stuff, so that I don't have to mark on my character 
sheet to keep up with wounds, etc.).  I also like to use check-boxes to 
keep track of hits, ammo and pools.

So... if anyone has any helpful advice now, before I've done much of 
this, I would greatly appreciate it.  It would be easier to implement now 
than later.  Probably I will put everything on the character sheet that 
is on the combat cards, so the sheets should be useful whether you want 
to use the cards or not.

No massive changes, obviously, but minor things.  For example:  providing 
a space for the Base Stat, effective stat (for those modified by wearing 
armor, etc) and using check-boxes to track "current stat" (preferably on 
the combat card rather than the charsheet itself) - as opposed to the 
current "Base Stat, Current Stat" and nothing else.

On the other hand, what are the odds you folks are using as many 
different character sheets as there are subscribers?  No matter, I kinda 
like this forms designing thing.

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:30:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: CSC Info from Greg Porter 

In Reply to Your Message of 16 Oct 1996 16: 40:09 GMT
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:30:03 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: > the vehicle rules cover design up to and including TL15
: 
: Are the vehicle design rules a simpler version of FF&S (like QSDS)?  The full
: version?  A different system altogether?  Is there anywhere we can get an
: advance look?

Go to Joe Heck's page, he's got a PDF file of the gamma stuff that Greg
was working on with the GDW-BETA people.

It is definitely simpler.  Yes it is a little different, but not by
much.  Suprisingly, much of it is very compatible.  And if you've ever
seen Greg's work, I'm sure you'll like what you see.

: If the new rules are a different system altogether, I think I'll
: (reluctantly) give T4 the old heave-ho.  I'm already somewhat disappointed
: that the starship combat rules don't fit seamlessly into the vehicle/personal
: combat rules.  (Not that I run a lot of combat, but I hate having to
: improvise when the players want to open the airlock with a plasma gun.)

Don't chuck them yet, I'm just starting to warm up to them!  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 17:36:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#556] JimV's comments on IG/FFE tms

Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com> writes...

T::>Joe Walsh reports IG's copyright policy:
 ::>>Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to
 ::>>the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
 ::>>
 ::>>A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture
 ::>>Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine
 ::>>with it.  Be aware that this makes your work the property of FFE, though.

T::>Man, I sure hope this is some sort of misunderstanding.

 I expect it is; it is very much at odds with what I was told
 when I was discussing Freelance Traveller with Ken.

T::>Peter Miller writes:
 ::>> Which means they can use any material I place on my web site WITHOUT paying
 ::>> me?  I hope not.  Seriously though, am I right in my interpretation of this
 ::>> writing.  Say I put a starship up on my page (using T4 rules), and have the
 ::>> proper copyright information on it.  This means that IG can come along and
 ::>> use it for whatever they want, because they own it?

T::>Not only does it mean that. It seems, at least by interpretation, to mean
 ::>that if IG decides at some later date that they no longer want your
 ::>starship designs on the web, they can effectively shut you down. By
 ::>agreeing to this policy now, you would be sacrificing all rights to your
 ::>own designs.

 This is indeed what the policy as explained by Joe implies.
 Again, it's totally at odds with what was discussed prior to
 the introduction of Freelance Traveller.

T::>"athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net> (r.n. dominick) writes:
 ::>> Woah, woah. This is NOT what the legal contact at Imperium Games told me
 ::>> when I asked exactly what I needed to put on my web pages to make them
 ::>> kosher. The only text on my page
 ::>> (http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/traveller.html) is this:
 ::>> Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. All rights
 ::>> reserved.

T::>Looks like the policy just changed.

 It sounds a bit too radical a change - I'm more inclined to
 _cautiously_ assume a misinterpretation, and to pursue
 clarification - as apparently many others do.

 T$R is by far, probably due to name recognition, the largest
 company in the industry.  It would not surprise me if Steve
 Jackson Games were #2 or #3 (I could see WotC, GW, and/or WW
 being larger, but I'm not sure) - and their policy is almost
 diametrically opposite to T$R's.

T::>> I can see Imperium Games wanting this, and also wanting you to copyright
 ::>> your *own* pages (which is not a bad idea in and of itself) so that someone
 ::>> cannot come along and reprint them. The statement above just reinforces
 ::>> FarFuture's trademark status on Traveller.

 Which is my interpretation of the statement that Ken asked be
 placed on this kind of material, and also jives with the "tone"
 of the discussions I (and others, apparently) have had with
 them concerning this kind of material.

T::>Unless there is some form of miscommunication going on, which I *really*
 ::>hope is the case, it sounds to me like somebody at Imperium Games just
 ::>pulled a T$R. IMHO, this totally changes the relationship IG had with the
 ::>TML and with the fanzines and Traveller-enthusiasts everywhere. Joe, can
 ::>we get some sort of explanation for this? Is there perhaps some sort of
 ::>error?

 I certainly hope so.  If it turns out _not_ to be an error,
 then Freelance Traveller is going off the air.  Since I cannot
 pay for or receive payment for Freelance Traveller (the latter
 because of the Dragonfire terms of service, the former because
 of the latter - not to mention the very issues at issue with
 respect to IG/FFE), my policy with regards to the rights is
 that _all_ rights to material written by FT submitters remains
 with those submitters - even to the point of pulling material
 (reluctantly) upon request.  I can't ethically, even with the
 submitter's agreement, deprive them of any rights in their
 intellectual property without some form of reasonable
 compensation.

T::>Just to stick my neck onto the chopping block, here's the sort of
 ::>disclaimer that I could understand:

T::>  "Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).
 ::>  Use of this trademark or of any material copyrighted by FFE is not
 ::>  to be interpreted as a claim on such material. This work is to be
 ::>  considered "unofficial" and FFE cannot be held liable for damages,
 ::>  material or otherwise, resulting from its use. This work is
 ::>  copyright 1996 (author's name). All rights reserved, except that
 ::>  FFE may draw on this work in any fashion they deem appropriate."

 With the exception of the last sentence, this is close to what
 I've used (inconsistently) on FT - typically, I use something
 like "Traveller is a registered....  Use of the trademark or
 associated information is not intended to imply any official
 connection to FFE or IG, or any licensee."  Now that you point
 it out, I should probably add the author's copyright, and just
 as a matter of common sense, I should probably standardize the
 disclaimer.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ A mutated, superior man could also be a wonderful thing


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:47:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Might Be...(longish)

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> ...your real life is immaginary.
> 
> ...you get hot flashes at a Traveller auction.

These describe me . . . :)

> ...your resume includes a UPP and skill listing.

. . . and this isn't a bad idea.  At the very least, if someone ever 
applie for a job where I work using such a resume, I'll definitely give 
it a second look. :)


> can I get an amen?!?!?

Amen, Brother Paul. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:07:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IG's New Copyright Policy

Marc Miller wrote me today concerning the recent copyright controversy.
Since there's still confusion on the list as to exactly where he stands,
I'm going to post what he sent along with my rather lengthy reply. Here goes:

> I specifically encourage, support, and allow fan-authored, not-for-profit,
> Traveller-compatible (for any version of Traveller) articles and materials,
> including deck plans, network posts, and freeware. Provided they acknowledge
> the Traveller trademarks and copyrights.
>
> I think it is stupid for the publisher of a role-playing game to not allow
> (or encourage) those who buy and play the game to express themselves about
> it. The requirement for the acknowledgement is to prevent the game system (or
> parts of it) from falling into the public domain or the trademark becoming
> liable to challenge.
>
> Marc Miller
 
I'm glad to learn that we share the same philosophy on this issue. As
you may know, it was only two years ago that TSR began telling ftp-sites
around the world to delete their archives of fan-authored, AD&D-
compatible material. Quite a few of my own donations got demolished in
those purges (about 500-600 pages of an online magazine I used to edit),
so if I seem rather persistent about this issue, it's only because
getting burned once has left an indelible impression, not to mention a
bitter taste for RPG companies in general and TSR in particular. Since
Imperium games seems to have more than its fair share of ex-TSR employees,
I was naturally interested to learn your copyright policy.

Speaking of ex-TSR employees, I'm have to admit that I'm rather confused
by some of Ken Whitman's statements on this issue which appear, at first
glance, to conflict with your own statements above. Perhaps you can shed
some light on this matter. This is an excerpt of a recent conversation
between Joe Walsh and Ken Whitman.

Joe: "What is IG's copyright policy vis a vis TML/Web/UseNET-published 
materials for traveller, regarding: 1) original works, and 2) copyrighted 
works."

Ken:  "What do you mean by original works?"

Joe:  "Stuff that people make up on their own, like new equipment, new 
rules, etc."

Ken:  "Well, as long as they put 'Traveller is a registered trademark of 
FarFuture Enterprises.  Copyright (c) 1996' in there, there's no problem."

Joe:  "So that means that, technically, all such works are the property 
of FFE...?"

Ken:  "Yeah.  We've been lax in our enforcement of this requirement, but 
we really have to be more careful.  FFE could lose its Trademark.  But, 
we don't want to anger the fans."

My 1st question:

Did Ken Whitman really mean to indicate here that any time a Traveller-
fan writes some form of original but Traveller-compatible work (adventure,
rules supplement, world description, character write-up, etc), that the
individual in question must include a statement that transfers ownership
of their original work to FFE? And if this is what he really meant to
say, is this something that you agree with?

I can understand acknowledging the Traveller trademark and FFE's
copyrights, but this statement by Ken Whitman seems, in my mind, to go
too far. After I first heard about it, I suggested on the TML what I
thought was a reasonable alternative statement... one which would
protect FFE quite well but which would also allow the individual authors
to maintain ownership over their own work. Here is my suggested
statement once again:

  "Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).
  Use of this trademark or of any material copyrighted by FFE is not
  to be interpreted as a claim on such material. This work is to be
  considered "unofficial" and FFE cannot be held liable for damages,
  material or otherwise, resulting from its use. This work is
  copyright 1996 (author's name). All rights reserved, except that
  FFE may draw on this work in any fashion they deem appropriate."

This reason I include the last sentence is just for IG's own protection,
as it is possible that by pure coincidence, IG might publish something
fairly similar to something a fan writes, and this line would protect
them from the fan suing (not that I could envision this ever happening,
but it pays to cover your aft-quarters every now and then). Of course,
the fan would have to rely on IG's sense of "rightness" to not publish
their work wholesale without compensation, but I don't see this as a
problem. Some people (like myself) might not even want compensation,
and might amend the last sentence to read: "All rights reserved, except
that FFE is invited to draw on this work or even republish it without
requesting permission."

My 2nd question:

Do you have a problem with this disclaimer? If so, what's the matter
with it? I don't want to be pushy here. If all you require is that
people acknowledge your trademarks and copyrights, that's fine. I'm
just trying to suggest a little something extra so that you'll be
better protected, but I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?

Oh, and a 3rd question, since I'm on a roll:

Can we include official sector data in starmapping freeware? I'm
assuming the answer is yes, but I want to make absolutely sure
that it's okay with you.

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:16:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG Trademark/Copyright Policy

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Chuck Maddox wrote:

> What's to stop someone from posting something along the lines of:
> ___________
> Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture Enterprises, and it is
> Copyright (c) 1996.
> 
> The (web page's) author's work is copyrighted (c) 1996 by the author, and
> although it is based on concepts founded in Traveller, the author has no
> claim to any trademark/copyright owned by FarFuture Enterprises.
> 
> If you wish to include this material in a publication (paper, electronic or
> otherwise), please contact the author at: author@service.com.  Otherwise
> you may use this material for your own _personal_ use.
> ____________
> Or something similar to the above?

Nothing.  The last stuff isn't even necessary.  As I explained in the 
post I just sent, there's no problem - it was all a misunderstanding on 
my part.  :(


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:34:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #556

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> [snicker]  I LOVE the idea. :)  This could work in a campaign.  It could 
> easily be as important a discovery as that of the Droyne being the 
> Ancients. :) >>
> 
> Joe? There's a couple of guys from SolSec outside who'd like a word with 
> you...

Well, they better not get too close.  They'll be in grave danger from the 
flames and rocks coming my way. [G]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:37:54 -0700
Subject: DGP COPYRIGHTS

 
 
Dear Traveller Afficionados and TML'ers,
 
It  has  never  been  the  intention  of  MM  or  DGP to create a
situation in which background for the game was barred from future
reference in the game.
 
That is, DGP was given an  open hand to draw upon GDW's Traveller
materials, and in return gave MM and his associates equal freedom
to design new Traveller game  materials based upon the background
presented in  DGP's works. DGP  entered into this  agreement with
the  full  awareness  that  Marc's  rights  of  derivation  would
continue even  after DGP's right  to publish game  material under
the  Traveller trademark  expired.
 
Of  course,  the  scope  of  the  agreement  was  limited  to the
publication  of  materials  for  the  Traveller role-playing game
market. Any use of DGP's materials outside that market by Marc or
his associates would require a new agreement with DGP.
 
 
Under this  arrangement, once something  integral to the  setting
was created  -- such as  a key person  (the Emperor, a  planetary
leader, the head of a  major regional corporation, etc.), a piece
of equipment, a class of ships, a planet (or culture, government,
or organization),  etc. -- these  things could be  represented in
new game works because they comprised the background of the game,
that  is, they  DEFINED THE  MILIEU. The  text and  illustrations
themselves could  not be reprinted,  but any idea  that fell into
the category of "background" could  be drawn upon in the creation
of new Traveller game products.
 
The notable  exception to the reprint  restriction concerns data.
Most  of  the  data  presented  in  the  game  consists  of  pure
background,  and can't  be presented   in any  other way  than by
reprinting it  verbatim. Planet names, UWP's,  sector data lists,
ship  class  names,  ship  statistics,  and  other  data  can  be
reprinted directly in new Traveller  game products (by Marc or by
whomever he designates).
 
The  copyright  limitations  mostly  concern  foreground.  Player
characters, adventures, NPCs  insignificant to the superstructure
of  the milieu,  their personal  activities, specific encounters,
etc. Even though  these persons and events could  be mentioned in
passing,  neither MM  nor DGP  would ever  consider reworking  an
adventure  done  by  the  other,  or  making  use  of  their star
characters, without getting permission first.
 
As you can see, the distinction between foreground and background
material  is highly  subjective, and  relies upon  the trust  and
goodwill between  the parties involved.  For instance, throw-away
references  were  often  picked  up  and  fleshed  out in greater
detail, even some that could be identified as "foreground".
 
One  thing you  need to  understand about  Marc is  that he takes
pride in being the creator and leader of Traveller, and we at DGP
have always found him to be a fair and honorable ruler. You don't
have  anything  to  worry  about.  Marc's  main  concern  is  the
happiness of his customers and followers.
 
We at  DGP are very  happy that Marc  is in control  of Traveller
once again, and we feel that it is a position he truly deserves.
 
Sincerely,
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications

------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Terri Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:26:37 -0400
Subject: Auction Update

The auction update as of 16OCT96 7:30PM EST
The auction will close tonight at 11:59pm EST

1.  Adventure 1: The Kinuir			6.00	douglas@point.com	
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril	6.00	douglas@point.com	
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	     6.00	   
petermiller@youngmerlin.com	
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague		7.00	sennafan@rust.net	
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Interventio		7.00	sennafan@rust.net	
6.  Book 8: Robots				20.00	balcom@dayton.net	
7.  JTAS No.5					20.00	richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil	
8.  JTAS No. 6					7.00	robertbrennan@isocor.ie	
9.  JTAS No.7					4.00     robert.brennan@isocor.ie	
10. JTAS No.7					4.00	anonymous1	
11.  JTAS No.11					4.00	anonymous1	
12.  JTAS No. 12				5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan			8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani			30.00	mark@dk-online.dk	
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora		8.00	sennafan@rust.net	
16.  101 Vehicles				12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit			12.00	dmalnati@absi.com	
18.Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook		35.00	sdollar@goodnet.com	
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	                     
11.00tom@surf.0.martech.fsu.edu	     20.  Far Traveller No. 1				10.00
jlockett@io.com	
21.  High Passage No. 2 			20.00	jlockett@io.com	
22.  High Passage No. 3				25.00	jlockett@io.com	
23.  High Passage No. 4				8.00	jlockett@io.com	
24.  High Passage No. 5				12.00	jlockett@io.com	
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.	12.00	tom@surf.0.martech.fsu.edu	
	
Recipents will be notifed by email as to total cost with shipping. 
Payments in US funds only please.  
Items paid for by money order wil be sent the next mail day.
Items paid for by check will be mailed as soon as the check clears the
bank.
Please reference your email address on your check or money order.  

Thanks,
Nathan Mezel

	



------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Terri Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:25:36 -0400
Subject: Auction Update

The auction update as of 16OCT96 7:30PM EST
The auction will close tonight at 11:59pm EST

1.  Adventure 1: The Kinuir			6.00	douglas@point.com	
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril	6.00	douglas@point.com	
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	     6.00	   
petermiller@youngmerlin.com	
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague		7.00	sennafan@rust.net	
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Interventio		7.00	sennafan@rust.net	
6.  Book 8: Robots				20.00	balcom@dayton.net	
7.  JTAS No.5					20.00	richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil	
8.  JTAS No. 6					7.00	robertbrennan@isocor.ie	
9.  JTAS No.7					4.00     robert.brennan@isocor.ie	
10. JTAS No.7					4.00	anonymous1	
11.  JTAS No.11					4.00	anonymous1	
12.  JTAS No. 12				5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan			8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani			30.00	mark@dk-online.dk	
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora		8.00	sennafan@rust.net	
16.  101 Vehicles				12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit			12.00	dmalnati@absi.com	
18.Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook		35.00	sdollar@goodnet.com	
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders	                     
11.00tom@surf.0.martech.fsu.edu	     20.  Far Traveller No. 1				10.00
jlockett@io.com	
21.  High Passage No. 2 			20.00	jlockett@io.com	
22.  High Passage No. 3				25.00	jlockett@io.com	
23.  High Passage No. 4				8.00	jlockett@io.com	
24.  High Passage No. 5				12.00	jlockett@io.com	
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.	12.00	tom@surf.0.martech.fsu.edu	
	
Recipents will be notifed by email as to total cost with shipping. 
Payments in US funds only please.  
Items paid for by money order wil be sent the next mail day.
Items paid for by check will be mailed as soon as the check clears the
bank.
Please reference your email address on your check or money order.  

Thanks,
Nathan Mezel

	



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #566
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 567

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Uncharted space
         2. Re: Those names...
         3. Re: Starship Economics & Misjumps
         4. Re: PART TWO: Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!
         5. Re: Re: 3,2,1...0
         6. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
         7. Re: IG's New Copyright Policy
         8. IG's Copyright/Trademark Policy (Clarification)
         9. Back on the job, Full-time
        10. Re: 4 X J1 (was re: Digest #xyz, or something as useful)
        11. Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .
        12. Re: Background Music
        13. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
        14. Re: Traveller Costuming
        15. Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!
        16. Re: IISS Uniforms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:43:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Uncharted space

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>         I suppose it could be a great idea (I applauded the same story when
> it was told about Foreven in Imperiallines 1), but, personally, if I
> purchase something which charts a Sector, I would prefer to found stats for
> the whole Sector. I have refereed CT/MT for years, and found no need for any
> blank space in my charts... when I want to develop a new area, I just use my
> data on a suitable region. This means my players are in a Parallel Traveller
> Universe... so what? Before the arrival of the net it was very difficult to
> found CT/MT stuff here (Spain), so I made half a dozen alternate sectors...

My personal take on this (gotta come up with a way to indicate whether I 
am speaking as IG's rep or not) is:

On the one hand, my view on many different types of products (RPGs, 
computers, computer programs, etc.) is that the option which provides the 
most flexibility should be provided.  So, usually, I would agree that 
there should be an "official" set of sector data for ALL areas of the 
Traveller setting.  Those who want to use them can do so.  Those who 
don't can make up their own stuff.  Maximum flexibility.

However, in this case, I'm beginning to get the impression that a lot of 
folks (not necessarily TMLers) will allow Official Data to restrict their 
creativity.  It becomes "canon," even if they don't know the term. [G]

So, if I assume that this will be handled intelligently (that sectors to 
be developed officially will be clearly marked, etc.), I think the "blank 
sector data" method will be best.

Besides, I bet there will be folks who will put a lot of effort into 
developing certain regions of space, then release those online (esp. now 
that they know IG won't come along and publish the result of their hard 
work w/o their permission[G]) for all of us to use.  No, this doesn't 
resolve the "canon"/shared universe problem that some have brought up, 
but it's something to think about. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:50:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Those names...

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>         Years ago, when I bought GDW's The Flaming Eye (my favorite
> adventure), I found a planet called MURCIA in the Massilia sector (my
> favorite sector). Funny, its a province of Spain just south of mine.
> Unfortunately, it was so funny that made impossible to keep my players
> attention when they got to the world. Imagine you live in New York and
> arrive to a planet called Fifth Avenue, or Harlem.

Once upon a time, my group would have thought it was funny - we would 
have enjoyed it.  Later on, we would have figured the game designer(s) 
ran out of ideas, and denigrated them and their paltry efforts.  
Perhaps interestingly, these days we would once again find it funny. :)  
Getting older and milder, I guess. [G]


>         The other day, wandering on the net, I found a program with * I
> think * official maps for, among other sectors, Corridor. Funny, in one
> subsector there was a Benidorm (a small town twenty km north of here), an
> Igualada (farther north, and smaller) and a Gaspar (a very common spanish
> name). Imagine a subsector with a Washington, a Boston and a Peter. I think
> I am not going to referee anything there :-).
>         So, if IG produces maps for different ages in the Imperium, please,
> please, it would be nice if real maps are not used... not that explaining
> all those Solomani names far away from Terra is difficult (it is), just to
> avoid my players laughing at me instead of with me ;-)

:)  I've not run into this (sounds like the stuff you are referencing is 
either from MT or TNE - I'm not familiar with most of that stuff) with 
Traveler, but I certainly used my share of familiar places in other 
games, most especially Champions.  I lived in Antioch, CA, and that city 
became the setting for a Champions game, AND a Shadowrun game, both at 
the same time (I alternated GMing those games, one one week, one the 
next, for a while), but in different eras, if you see what I mean.

Now that you mention it, though, it might be fun to draw up a map of 
stars for Traveller which corresponds to the layout of cities around 
here, and name the main worlds accordingly.  Might not be fun for the 
long run (but you never know), but it would be a nice novelty.

Thanks for the nice thought.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:05:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Economics & Misjumps

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Douglas McCorison wrote:

> Question 1:
> 
> Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
> every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?
[snip]
> Any one have comments on how they handle this issue?
> 
> What do you do if your characters jump into an empty parsec?

Dunno how helpful this will be, but I just never roll for that unless the 
characters haven't been keeping up on maintenance, jump from less than 
100 diameters out, or otherwise screw up. :)  

And, to tell the truth, a mis-jump has only occurred once.  I used it to 
put them into a situation where there was no gas giant in the system, no 
starport, and the world was filled with hostile natives.  No fuel, and 
they had to go through hell to get it.  

Never dumped them into an empty parsec, though.


> Question 2:
> When a trader ship mis-jumps (not if, see above), how do
> you handle things like freight (due some port off there),
> High and Low passengers?

Never had the passenger issue come up, but they did have some freight to 
deliver.  They had to explain it REAL good to the person expecting the 
freight, as in the end they traded the stuff in the shipment to a group 
of natives, to win their cooperation in allowing the ship to re-fuel.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:20:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: PART TWO: Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> Any word from IG on this issue?  Do they see a problem with it, and
> if so, wouldd they do anything, or is it too fundamental a change?

[Putting my offical IG Answer Man hat on...[G]]

I asked Ken about this last Friday, and he said that IG is happy with the 
task system they've published, but they certainly don't mind it when 
individuals come up with their own task systems.  IG has produced 
something that gives the "feel" they want T4 to have, in terms of what 
they produce (but not necessarily the "feel" of the individual games 
played all fans).  

IG's take on such issues is that they produce "guidelines," not Gaming 
Law. [G]   It's not just, "If you don't like it, change it," it's more 
like, "We encourage you to change everything you don't like.  We aren't 
gods, and we will never be able to produce a product that is perfect for 
everyone.  Please, please don't treat our products as if they were 
written with God's Own Hand." :)

In short, they're proud of the systems they've come up with, but not so 
proud as to even _consider_ discouraging others from changing them for 
their own campaigns.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:23:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Re: 3,2,1...0

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Scott Ripley wrote:

> Once again, the massive deception campaign institued by Terran cats bears
> fruit.  ALL races including the Droyne are the result of the eternal cat
> population's attempt to create the perfect "pet" Race....
> 
> Of course the Vargr and the Aslan were created to make the bestest sitcom
> ever...

ROFL!!!  oh, man [wiping tears from eyes].  It's just so TRUE! =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:28:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:
> My 1st question:
> 
> Did Ken Whitman really mean to indicate here that any time a Traveller-
> fan writes some form of original but Traveller-compatible work (adventure,
> rules supplement, world description, character write-up, etc), that the
> individual in question must include a statement that transfers ownership
> of their original work to FFE? And if this is what he really meant to
> say, is this something that you agree with?

Jim,

No, that was MY mistake.  Please see my clarification post for the full 
info.  I'm very sorry to have stirred this whole thing up... [sigh]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:30:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG's New Copyright Policy

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:

> Oh, and a 3rd question, since I'm on a roll:
> 
> Can we include official sector data in starmapping freeware? I'm
> assuming the answer is yes, but I want to make absolutely sure
> that it's okay with you.

Jim,

Oh, and hopefully Marc will answer that one.  I believe he is the proper 
person to handle that sort of question.  


- -Joe
PS:  I only include this to make it clear I'm not ignoring your question...
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:32:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG's Copyright/Trademark Policy (Clarification)

Okay, folks, I have the answer to the copyright policy question.  I'll 
try to be as concise and unambiguous as possible.  Nevertheless, I'm not 
perfect (duh![G]), so if you think something seems awfully unfair or if 
you have questions, please don't hesitate to ask for a clarification.

IG Copyright Policy

If you produce an original work for use with Traveller, you are the 
copyright holder (see copyright law for details).  You own that original 
work.

However, IG and FFE ask that you put the trademark notice on that 
original work.  This is done in order to protect their trademark.  

If you want to distribute that work for free, that's where it ends.  No 
more rules or provisions.  Create your original work, put the trademark 
notice on it, and you own it.  It's all legal-like[G].

If, however, you want to make money from that work, you will have to get 
in contact with IG, get a Letter of Permission or a License, and do all 
that is involved in such contracts (for details, contact Imperium 
Games).  Alternatively, you can get in touch with Gold Rush Games, Sword 
of the Knight Publications, or any other Officially Licensed publisher of 
Traveller material (I don't know of any others at this point, but that 
doesn't mean there aren't any others).  These folks can legally publish 
your work since they are Licensees.  See these companies for details on 
getting your work published with them.

Finally, if IG wishes to take your work and publish it, they must 
first come to an agrement with you, since it is your work.


I hope that clears everything up.  I'm sorry for the confusion caused by 
my earlier posting.  Please forgive me.  I am new to this job (been at it 
7 days now, in fact), so I'm bound to make mistakes. :(

I'll do better next time. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:38:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Back on the job, Full-time

Oh, and if you couldn't tell from all the posts from me today, my parents 
are now on their way back to CA.  I'm back on the job full-time, filling 
your mail boxes with my own particular form of tripe. [G]

I'll be posting an updated IG FAQ soon, as well as replying to the 
at least some of the hundred-odd messages I've accumulated for later 
study during the last five days...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:21:59 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: 4 X J1 (was re: Digest #xyz, or something as useful)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> With J1 drives, getting there would be a *major* undertaking. How 
> many ships are equipped to make *4* jumps? I say four, because until 
> you've been there, you don't know if you can refuel there.

	I have designed a Tl:A yacht capable of two consecutive
	jumps. I think its common practice for TL:9-A ships.

Moin Liam McCauley,

>      Actually, it takes exactly the same amount of fuel to do 4 X J1 as it 
>      doe to do 1 X J4.  Also, the jump drive is smaller, so you can carry 
>      more fuel :-).

	This the main think I dislike in T4 ship design. With FFS its
	probately better to install a big jump drive for fuel efficenty.

	Two 1 parsec jumps with a jump 1 drive need 20% fuel,
	while a jump 2 drive would need only 15% fuel using FFS.
	FFS forces to use better technology if available the 
	drive + fuel percentage decrease per jump level :

		jump 1 drive : 12% per parsec
		     2          9%
		     3          8%
		     4          7.5%
		     5          7.2%

		     j1     j2     j3     j4     j5
		jd1 12.000 
		jd2 11.500 19.000 
		jd3 12.667 16.000 26.000
		jd4 14.250 16.333 20.500 33.000 
		jd5 16.000 17.500 20.000 25.000 40.000 
		jd6 17.833 19.000 20.750 23.667 29.500 47.000 

	So if the ship is build for jump 1 is at best has an j2 drive,
	if it should make a j3 most times it should have a jd5 drive.

>	 I like to design TL12 scout ships with enough fuel in 
>      the main tanks to make one jump at the maximum rating of the jump 
>      drive (i.e. J2), and have a decent sized cargo hold with collapsible 
>      fuel tanks fitted.  This gives it the flexability to carry a good 
>      amount of cargo on short trips, or to fill up the tanks and do 
>      multiple jumps (enough fuel for another J2 is usually possible).

	Look at my 600dt tl:D liner, it has a jump 4 drive and
	25% fuel, so it wouldnt have any drop fuel for manouever
	left if it makes a 4 parsec jump. But is has 6 40dt 
	cargo hatches equipped with colapsible tanks, so it could
	make two j4 have 16 hours of thrust and has still one cargo
	hatch for "air mail".

	The Gushemege scout has 100dt tl:F, jump 5, 12 ghours
	and an other jump 5 in a colapsible tank.

By Michael
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:10:21 -0700
Subject: Re: You maybe a Traveller player/ref If . . .

You might be a Traveller Player if . . .

	. . . you ask a member of the USMC to show you his skill with a cutlass

	. . . you wonder what a "break dance" might be saying in Hiver

	. . . you _know_ "RC" doesn't refer to a cola drink

	. . . You always spell the name of the Second Apostle as "Marc"

	. . . you think of a history class as being "pre-spaceflight Solomani History"

	. . . you classify historical events by Tech Level.

	. . . you can recite the UPP for every major body in the Sol system

	. . . you speculate on the UPPs of friends, neighbors, acquaintences and 
              enemies.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:36:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Background Music

Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> 
> Yeah, the _Blade Runner_ soundtrack is the best. The only other Vangelis
> album I've liked is _Opera Sauvage_, there's good stuff on that (one piece
> of which was used by Peter Weir in _The Year of Living Dangerously_. And
> that's a pretty nice soundtrack too, mostly Maurice Jarre, with some Indo
> gamelan.)
> 
> Soundtrack music is the way to go. For mood music and especially for
> futurismo global-cultural flavour (as opposed to the obvious sci-fi movie
> stuff), I'd suggest:
> 
> _Passion_, Peter Gabriel's excellent soundtrack to _The Last Temptation_.

Is this _The Last Temptation of Christ_?

> 
> _Musst Musst_ and other disks by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Pakistan's top
> Qawwali singer, and among the most incredible voices in the world.
> 
> _The Akira Symphonic Suite_ - one of the best movie soundtracks I've ever
> heard. Utterly unlike anything else.

GOOD stuff! For barroom scenes, I like the music from the _Bubblegum Crisis_ (good if 
the bar has a house band; assume the singers on the BGC track are singing in a local 
dialect or Vilani).

For military encounters in a mercenary Trav game, I like the soundtrack to the computer 
game _Command and Conquer_. I'd buy an album of music like this, if I can find it!

I also like the "Top Gun" soundtrack for military fun 'n' games. The _Conan_ soundtrack 
is good for those lo-tech fun times, too.

<<deletia>>

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:51:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
> <<<<....snippage....>>>>
> >
> >Alrighty then; what's next on the agenda?
> 
> <SARCASM>
> 
> What,  How dare you insinuate that we are here for a purpose!!!

Well, like to engage in activities likely to result in the accumulation of small slips 
of green paper that can be traded for food, clothing, shelter and Traveller books (not 
in that specific order . . .)?
> 
> This must be some evil Zhodani plot to change the very way we think!

It's the _Hivers_, not the Zho, we need to worry about. The _HIVERS_!

> 
> Please, Please, Everyone Calm Down, There Is No Agenda, We Have No Real
> Purpose For Being Here Or For This Meeting!!
> 
> The Zhodani conspiritors have been captured and will be brought to justice
> for this blatant attempt to bring structure and order to this meeting by
> insinuating we have an agenda.

 . . . and the Hivers are laughing like hyenas (okay, twitching like a overcaffienated 
five-year old, same thing) at the gullibility of humaniti to manipulation. Zhos are 
about as manipulative as sheep. Hivers use manipulation the same way we humans use 
opposable thumbs.


The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:

	An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC

	An Aslan with an Honor Grudge

	A Hiver with an Agenda 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:03:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> >    The only place I am stuck is how to do the combat ribbons.<<deletia>>
> In the US Navy they are about a quarter of an inch high, and about an inch
> wide.  They are three to a row, with any odd number of one or two centered
> on the top.  I would recommend fabricating them either with multi-coloured
> cloth with thin strips ranging from 1/8th to 1 inch, this would be
> difficult I imagine. 

> The easiest way is to either get your hands on some real ones, 

VERY BAD idea . . . unless you KNOW what the ribbons are awarded for! If *I* saw someone 
wearing US military ribbons, _especially those awarded for valor_, even on a sf con 
costume, I just might ask the individual if s/he was entitled to wear those ribbons. 
<This is one of my pet peeves: military poseurs wearing insignia they didn't earn 
when men and women fought and bled for the decoration> I'd be less concerned about 
wearing some commendation ribbon or another, but I'm going to be **pissed** if I ever 
see someone wearing a CMoH or Purple Heart ribbon and I find out the individual didn't 
earn 'em. 

> or do them up on the computer, print them out on a colour
> printer, and paste them onto a thick piece of cardboard.

Might work. Or use the approach the costumer did in SW: make the ribbons recognizable as 
military awards, but totally unrelated to any "real" award.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
Former MM3, USN


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:04:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Assume the 0.1 ton  missiles for a moment ... take a modest sized vessel,
> > a Destroyer (3000 tons in Supplement #9) or a Fleet Escort (5000 tons).
> > Assume half of the possible number of VLS launchers are installed ... 15
> > for the Destroyer or 25 for the Escort. That means a standard Desron (8
> > "DDGs") will have a one shot salvo of *90000* missiles (18000 if you
> > assume 0.5 ton types). An Esron (8 Escorts) would have a one shot salvo of
> > 150000 missiles (30000 0.5 ton types). I do not care what sort of fire
> > control you have on your PD systems, this sort of initial salvo is
> > effectively unstoppable if it is targetted effectively (i.e. against a
> > relatively small number of ships, based on their fire control capacities)
> > ... it simply overwhelms the PD Fire control no matter how good it is.
> 
> Congratulations. You've re-invented the "bombardment ships" used in the
> Pacific during WWII. They were older carriers that couldn't handle the
> modern aircarft. So they *covered* the flight deck with row after row
> of "2lb" rockets. They could fire individual rows, or ripple-fire them.
> They took out *everything* on the beach.

WW2 versions on land: Katyuska, Nebelwerfer, etc
Modern day version that doesn't float: ICM-equipped MLRS, Sov BM-22s.


> 
> > It gives light craft something that will make them useful in "line of
> > battle" against the larger vessels that would simply brush them aside
> > under normal circumstances. However, I would *not* see this as
> > *necessarily* the way to go for larger vessels ... you need *some*
> > capacity for closer ("gun") combat and for survivability that lighter
> > craft simply cannot achieve. I do not see missiles as a guaranteed winner,
> > but as a method of evening the odds ... one of tradeoffs. Sure, you
> > *could* have a BB (500 kilotons) with a one shot salvo of almost 2
> > *million* missiles, but only by foregoing conventional weapons ... 

Two words: planetary strike.

> > and
> > once the VLS systems are expended, they can only be reloaded by a fleet
> > tender, so its a poor choice if sustained combat is expected. This is why
> > I see it as something that light ships would use.
> 
> Heck, consider what happens if put *lots* of projectile weapons of some
> sort on the hull. Sure, they take forever to get anywhere. On the other
> hand, who needs sand if you have a couple hundred .50 cal machineguns
> firing at an approaching missile? :-)

At a det-laser or shockwave nuke? Hmmm . . .
> 
> And to be silly, just how many shots *does* an 18" naval rifle get in a
> 30 minute turn?

IIRC, 1.5 to 3 minutes to load the US 16'' guns on the _Iowa_ BBs. 10-20 shots/turn?


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:33:42 -0700
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

Matthew Mactyre wrote:
> 
> At 01:57 AM 10/15/96 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >I agree Scouts are often rebels, but they are also survival-oriented rebels.
> >Of course, the concept of a dress uniform would likely be laughed at by
> >the vast majority of scouts.
> 
> The IISS in my gaming world are rebels, criminals, the truly dedicated and
> other eccentrics.  However, they take quite a bit of pride in their service
> and wear a jet black uniform when attending official duties or any other
> time it suites their needs.  As for a dress uniform, I'm sure they drag out
> their Sunday best when they have to interact with other services or are
> attending state occasions. 

Scouts are, above else, _practical_. Rebels, nonconformists, disbelievers in authority 
granted by rank, but ruthlessly practical.

> Speaking of which, does anyone else miss the
> decoration system in "Mercenary" and "High Guard?"  I always loved getting
> "The Star Burst for Extreme Heroism."

You just wanted to have a ship named after you -- _Starburst_ class CLs were named for 
SEH recipients;)

I certainly miss decorations! I wrote an article and sent it to TTC awhile back with 
awards for the RC and Regency (for TNE) -- I've heard _nothing_ from Sword of the Knight 
about it -- and I'd like to do another one on Milleu Zero Sylean/Imperial decorations 
for JTAS.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #567
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 16 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 568

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Canadian Hardcovers
         2. IG FAQ - 10/16/96
         3. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
         4. Re: DGP Announcement
         5. Hey, why did the JTAS/Starships release dates change??
         6. Economic benefit of an onboard fuel refining plant...
         7. Re: Traveller Costuming
         8. The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ? 
         9. Re: CSC Info from Greg Porter
        10. Re: Those names...
        11. Re: Canadian Hardcovers
        12. Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ? 
        13. Re:  Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
        14. Re: Those names ...
        15. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
        16. RE: IG FAQ - 10/16/96 
        17. Re: Traveller Costuming

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Canadian Hardcovers

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Has anyone in Canada received a hardcover yet?
> 
> You'd think as the US's largest trading partner, they'd have figured out how
> to ship stuff north of the border by now.

I'm starting to even doubt in the existence of IG now :-#)  The books
must be stuck in the continuous snow storm that separates our country
from theirs.  Everyday my wife gets out of the igloo, uses the snowshoes
to walk to the sleigh then rides to the log town of Ottawa to check at
the local mountie outpost.  No book from the USA yet.  I keep hoping...
and hoping... and hoping...

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Canadian and proud to be: HEY I FOUGHT TWO REFERENDUMS TO STAY CANADIAN!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG FAQ - 10/16/96

Imperium Games FAQ                                        October 16, 1996

Q.  How accurate is this FAQ?

A.  As accurate as it can be, given that humans are involved at every 
step of the process.  Sometimes there is a miscommunication or 
misundersanding that results in inaccurate information.  Other times, 
items in this FAQ (such as release dates) get changed after the FAQ is 
presented online.
    While every effort is made to ensure that the information contained 
herein is accurate at the time of presentation, mistakes will happen from 
time to time.  Please keep that in mind, and be forgiving of the 
Travellerite who posts the information. :)


Q.  Who do I contact if I have questions about Traveller?

A.  If you have questions about general Traveller information, including 
release dates, rules interpretations, questions about this FAQ, and so on, 
contact: ransom@iconnect.net
    If you have questions about the Quick Ship Design System, the Small 
Craft Design System, star travel as presented in Traveller, or other such 
topics, contact: wildstar@qrc.com
    If you are unsure who to contact, send your question to 
ransom@iconnect.net and he will direct your question to the appropriate 
person.
    Alternatively, post your question to the Traveller Mailing List, and 
note that it is an Official Question.
    Please keep in mind that we reserve the right to re-post any 
questions, whether sent to the mailing list or to one of the private 
email addresses.  This is generally only done if it is deemed that an 
answer to the question will benefit the whole group.  In short, though, 
no such communications should be considered private.
    Finally, if you have questions that are business-related (i.e., you 
want to get a License to publish Traveller items, or a Letter of 
Permission, or you want to check on your specific order, or you want to 
place an order), contact Imperium Games.  They can be contacted at:
       Imperium Games, Inc.
       P.O. Box 481
       Lake Geneva, WI 53147
       Phone: 1-414-249-9430
       Fax: 1-414-249-9456
       Web Site:  http://www.imperiumgames.com


Q.  From where do you get your answers?

A.  Some answers come from our own information and knowledge of the 
Traveller game, while others come from the folks at Imperium Games.  


Q.  What is the scope of CSC?

A.  CSC will have a huge amount of equipment, as well as a very robust 
small craft design system.  CSC's focus is on equipment available in 
Milieu 0.


Q.  What about equipment for subsequent Milieux?

A.  New equipment will be published for subsequent Milieux when each 
Milieu book is published.  At this point, it is unknown whether that will 
take the form of a section of each Milieu book, a separate CSC-type 
book, or be some combination depending on the Milieu in question.


Q.  Will the next printing of T4 have new artwork?

A.  The next printing of T4 will simply have errata noes in the back of the 
book.  The printing after that will be version 1.1, and will simply have the 
errors corrected (but will have the same artwork).  At least, that is the 
plan at this point.


Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?

A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises.  [copyright symbol] 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
with it, so long as you don't sell you work (or make money off of it in 
any way) - see below.


Q.  If I make an original work for Traveller, who owns it?

A.  You do.  But, you cannot make money off of it without doing one of 
the following:

    1)  Get a Letter of Permission (call or write to IG for details)
    2)  Become a Licensee (call or write to IG for details)
    3)  Have a Licensee publish your work (call or write IG for details)


Q.  Is there any way around this?

A.  Yes.  Don't mention Traveller in your article, and don't pull 
material from any Traveller product.  Say it is an article for use with 
science fiction RPG's, and keep it generic.


Q.  Can IG or FFE publish my original Traveller work without my permission?

A.  No.  They cannot take your original work and publish it without first 
getting your permission.


Q.  What is the policy regarding copying previously published works by 
GDW to the internet (or elsewhere)?

A.  You have to get written permission from Marc Miller 
(FarFuture@aol.com) in order to legally do so.  He holds all the 
copyrights on all such material.


Q.  When will [insert product here] be shipped?

A.  The correct schedule for products to be shipped (that is, when they
will begin to be shipped to dealers and those who ordered directly through
IG) is:

        Starships                       November 15
        JTAS                            November 15
        Citizens of the Imperium        November 15
        Aliens Archive                  November 15
        Central Supply Catalog          December 1
        Milieu 0                        December 15
        First Survey                    December 15


Q.  How often is IG's web site going to be updated?

A.  IG plans to update the web site on a bi-weekly basis until further 
notice.  Their website's URL is: http://www.imperiumgames.com


Q.  When is my T4 hardback going to arrive? 

A.  It depends.
All Orders:  The hardbacks were shipped in the same sequence in which 
orders were received.  As of October 18, all the hardbacks should be 
either in the mail or at their destinations.  IG wants to express their 
sincere thanks for the great patience everyone has shown in waiting for 
their orders to be filled.

U.S. Orders:  Some were shipped via Priority Mail, while others were 
shipped via 4th Class Mail, depending on the date on which the order was 
placed.  For details of when your specific order was shipped, please call 
or write to Imperium Games.

Foreign Orders:  Foreign orders will take longer to arrive than orders 
shipped to the continental U.S. 


Q.  I really don't like [insert a rule from T4 here] . . .

A.  If you don't like something about any IG product, feel free to change
it!  The folks at IG realize they aren't gods, and are therefore unable
to create the perfect system for everyone.  Their philosophy is that they
are producing _guidelines_, not laws carved in stone.


Q.  My local game store doesn't carry Traveller products.  (Or, "There
aren't any Traveller players in my area.")

A.  Ask the owner of your friendly local game store if you can run a 
demo of the Traveller game.  If s/he will let you do so, some ideas 
for what to do include:
        1)  Run through some _extremely simple_ scenarios with 
            prospective customers.  These might be simply hitting
            a target - give them a character, a situation, a little
            build up, and a number to roll.  Act out the consequences.
        2)  Get a few members of your gaming group together, and play
            at the store, if they'll allow it and have an area where
            customers can stop by and watch you play.
        3)  Your own ideas

        The point is, demand drives supply.  If you would like to see a 
supply of Traveller products at your local game store, help to create the 
demand and let the game store owner know that demand exists.  If you can 
stir up enough demand among the gaming community in your area, the game 
store owner will almost certainly begin carrying lots of Traveller products.
        Plus, you you may end up making some new gaming friends! :)


Q.  Where do I send questions regarding IG and/or Traveller?

A.  It depends.  If it is a business-related question (such as license 
fees or distributor information), it should be addressed directly to 
Imperium Games (1-414-249-9430).  
    Other questions, such as those regarding what is meant by a given 
rule in an Imperium Games product, when a given supplement is due out, 
theory behind the technology used in the Traveller game (jump drives, 
sensors, starships, etc.), or other such questions, they should be 
addressed to either the TML (preferred) or to me personally 
(ransom@iconnect.net).
    But please be aware that any emailed question may be re-posted 
publicly, if I feel my reply should be made public to avoid duplication.  
I reserve the right to re-post any email sent to me regarding IG and/or 
Traveller.
    Please also be aware that messages posted to TML may not be answered 
unless it is made evident that an "official" answer is requested.
    Finally, at times it will be necessary for me to share questions with 
those who know more than I do about specific topics (i.e., a question about 
product release dates will be posed to someone at IG).  
    In other words, such communications are NOT considered private.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:32:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> I find myself in the need of the sub-sector names for A to D of the
> "Beyond" sector.  I have the data off of the Paranioa Press web page, but
> it doesn't list the sub-sector names.
> 
>                         Thanks,
>                             Zane
> 
> Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator
> healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast
> healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing
> Modern Micro-Armor, and Warhammer (all settings) Wargaming

A = Vimuhla
B = Karakan
C = <ahem>

Sorry..., let's try that again.

A = Mapepire
B = Liberty Hall
C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)
D = Mal'Gnar Radiant

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:34:09 -0700
Subject: Re: DGP Announcement

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> traveller@NS.MPGN.COM,Internet writes:
> >Yes, the "Starship Operator's Manual," when are we going to see volume 2.
> ><grin>
> 
> I'll see if I can dig out the rest of the communications rules, those that
> didn't get into volume one.  I think I still have the full draft for that
> chapter...

PleasePleasePlease! I'll whimper if that will help!

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:38:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Hey, why did the JTAS/Starships release dates change??

Hi again! :)

Attentive readers will have noted a change in the release/shipment dates 
for JTAS #25 and Starships, either in the FAQ or on IG's web site.  You 
may wonder why this is the case.  The short answer:  Stuff happens. :(

Essentially, the dates IG provides for release of products are based on the 
situation as it stands at the time those release dates are provided.  

Thereafter, unforseen situations can arise which cause the dates to be 
moved back.  IG sincerely regrets pushing such dates back, but at times 
it is unavoidable.  

Please be patient, and know that we are providing the most current 
information to you at all times.


Thanks!

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 17 Oct 96 10:36:43 +1000
Subject: Economic benefit of an onboard fuel refining plant...

     Find a Class C port, buy unrefined fuel...and sell refined fuel? 
     For various reasons this won't be economically viable in the long run, 
     but it might make a nice stopgap (for example, you happen to be in a 
     system where a fat juicy 5,000t unstreamlined merchant has misjumped 
     and are in the position to gouge them for many many bucks...)
     
     Of course, the fuel refining plant has a definite economic benefit: 
     you don't have to buy refined fuel. 

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:04:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

On 16 Oct 96, Jo Grant said:

>    I started with basic black combat trousers and shirt (German
>issue, actually :-), and a pair of biker boots. The trousers were
>fine but I added shoulder and epaulette patches to the shirt.
>Also I modified the collar from a standard to a mandarin. I got
>a gold lanyard for the left shoulder and bought a black baseball
>cap (couldn't find berets in Dublin) which I sewed another sunburst
>onto. I still need to get a pistol belt and create some SF looking
>things to hang off it.

I'm using a Confederate Army general's jacket pattern as a base.  This
already has shoulder boards and a high collar.  I'm going to order some East
German officer's boots and probably use German dress trousers.

>    The only place I am stuck is how to do the combat ribbons.
>Is there any military person out there who can tell me how the
>real ones are done? Any suggestions on how to do a mock up?
>They just look like a bar with different coloured bits of cloth. But
>what do you use as the backing and how do you get it to stick
>to the uniform right?

US ribbons are actually pins, using standard pin backs.  There are bars for
rows of ribbons, you slide the ribbon off it's backing and onto the larger
one.  Just as an aside, It looks best in groups of 3 or 4 across, on the
left chest above the breast pocket.  As for getting them, try a surplus
store in your area.. you might want to specify that you want non-US and
non-combat awards only, some veterans get pretty upset when they see someone
wearing a Silver Star as part of a costume.

For an alternate idea, get a book of German uniforms during WWII.. they may
have been evil, but boy could they dress!  The SS in particular had smart
looking uniforms, and you might get alternate ideas about decorations.


+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 17 Oct 96 11:03:39 +1000
Subject: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ? 

     Is anybody interested in me posting the T4 ship stats for the 
     "Imperial Hope" (research ship, University of Sylea), or would they 
     just be wasted bandwidth? I get the impression that many TMLers find 
     military ships to be far more interesting than (ptooey!) civilian 
     ships. 
     
     Michael B. 
     
     PS I concede defeat and apologise profusely for my grave crime of 
     trying to create a schism in the TML. Mea culpa, mea culpa! 
     
     PPS I used the High Guard tables for determining the jump drive. Is 
     this also heresy? 

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:05:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: CSC Info from Greg Porter

On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> Joe, does this mean that IG will be making CSC or similar guides for each
> Mileu?  Or that, each Mileu sourcebook will have an addition to the CSC,
> giving equipment and technologies suitable for thier settings?
> 
> Official answer...and opinions requested.

Peter,

Just in case you missed it in the FAQ, there will be updates and/or 
similar guides for future Milieux.  In other words, they aren't sure. :)


Sorry I couldn't be of more help,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:17:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Those names...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>         So, if IG produces maps for different ages in the Imperium, please,
> please, it would be nice if real maps are not used... not that explaining
> all those Solomani names far away from Terra is difficult (it is), just to
> avoid my players laughing at me instead of with me ;-)
>         Btw, have other countries' maps been also used?

Canada. 
In the Solomani Rim, there is Saskatoon and Calgary (both cities in our Prairie 
Provinces)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:35:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Canadian Hardcovers

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Daniel Poulin wrote:

> I'm starting to even doubt in the existence of IG now :-#)  The books
> must be stuck in the continuous snow storm that separates our country
> from theirs.  Everyday my wife gets out of the igloo, uses the snowshoes
> to walk to the sleigh then rides to the log town of Ottawa to check at
> the local mountie outpost.  No book from the USA yet.  I keep hoping...
> and hoping... and hoping...


Hi Daniel,

I'll try to help.  IG still had about 500 hardbacks to ship as of 
Monday.  They plan to have them all shipped by Friday.  Yours may be 
among them (depending on when you placed your order).

If you want to check on your specific order, either give IG a call or 
write to them.  Their address and phone number are in the FAQ I posted 
recently.


Best wishes,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:26:45 -0800
Subject: Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ? 

>     Is anybody interested in me posting the T4 ship stats for the 
>     "Imperial Hope" (research ship, University of Sylea), or would they 
>     just be wasted bandwidth? I get the impression that many TMLers find 
>     military ships to be far more interesting than (ptooey!) civilian 
>     ships. 

I most certainyl would.  I found it one of the most interesting things I've
read for Traveller, and would love to see more.  Also, in case you didn't
know Mike, it's on my web page too :)
(http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/)  If you don't want it there
(cause it's on yours or whatever) just tell me.


_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:37:15 -0400
Subject: Re:  Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Zane H. Healy wrote:

" find myself in the need of the sub-sector names for A to D of the
"Beyond" sector."

Well, here are the Subsector names for the Beyond sector

A:  Mapepire
B:  Liberty Hall
C:  Die Weltbund
D:  Mal'Gnar Radiant
E:  Subsector Delta
F:  Metchi' Alagwa
G:  Northeast Middle Beyond
H:  Darkling Regions
I:  Zydar
J:  Middle Beyond
K:  I'Sred Ni
L:  Araniopa
M:  Spinward Drift
N:  I-Glathriel
O:  Storm
P:  Aslani
Q:  Tevilnelg

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller Pages
(http://user.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 22:41:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Those names ...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es> wrote:
>         So, if IG produces maps for different ages in the Imperium, please,
> please, it would be nice if real maps are not used... not that explaining
> all those Solomani names far away from Terra is difficult (it is), just to
> avoid my players laughing at me instead of with me ;-)

This isn't actually as unusual as it sounds.  In the USA, where different
places were settled by people from all over the world, we have a wide
variety of 're-used' place names: there is, for example, Moscow, Berlin,
Essex, Cambridge, Oxford, and Salisbury - all in the state of Maryland (and
towns with the same name in many other states, as well).  These are mingled
with native place-names, like Chesapeake, Potomac, and Susquehana.

Given that Solomani administrators were dispatched througout the Vilani
empire during the Rule of Man (Second Imperium, or Ramshackle Empire,
depending on how your loyalties lie), it's suprising that there aren't more
worlds with Solomani names.

>         Btw, have other countries' maps been also used?

Certainly.  I have personally used railroad maps of Colorado (USA) and
Canada as a source of world names when generating Traveller subsectors;
therefore causing names like "Kamloops", "Skeena", and "Telluride" to be
given to planets.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:13:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

>From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:51:58 -0700
>Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
>
>The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:
>
>	An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC
>
>	An Aslan with an Honor Grudge
>
>	A Hiver with an Agenda 

Lemme guess, not in that particular order, right?

I could add a fourth...

The TMLer who has just been asked about RPG's and Religion. :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:16:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: IG FAQ - 10/16/96 

In Reply to Your Message of Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19: 28:10 CDT
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:16:43 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Q.  When is my T4 hardback going to arrive? 
: 
: A.  It depends.
: All Orders:  The hardbacks were shipped in the same sequence in which 
: orders were received.  As of October 18, all the hardbacks should be 
: either in the mail or at their destinations.  IG wants to express their 
: sincere thanks for the great patience everyone has shown in waiting for 
: their orders to be filled.

Okay, just a little venting here.  The above is a crock of shit!  I
don't think that they were shipped in any order.

How do I know.  Well, if they were shipped in the order that they were
placed, then mine would've been the *first* yes, I said *first* one
shipped.  I literally placed my order two minutes after the homepage was
changed and the offer was added!!!.  Hell, I called and Shirley told me
I was the first customer of their entire operation.

So, if mine was sent out *first*, then why was it postmarked Oct 7th
which as we all know is two weeks after a whole slew of other people
received them?

I'll be honest, take the above with a grain of salt.  I'm a patient man,
but I'm not above venting like a raging lunatic every so often!  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:27:36 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

At 04:03 pm 10/16/96 -0700, you wrote:
>when men and women fought and bled for the decoration> I'd be less
concerned about 
>wearing some commendation ribbon or another, but I'm going to be **pissed**
if I ever 
>see someone wearing a CMoH or Purple Heart ribbon and I find out the
individual didn't 
>earn 'em. 

        I think there's actually a law against wearing the Congressional
Medal of Honor if you haven't earned it.

Footnote for non-US readers: the Congressional Medal of Honor is the highest
military decoration in the US, so named because it requires an act of
congress to award it. You won't see many people wearing it because the
actions that earn it usually kill the person.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #568
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 17 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 569

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: IG FAQ - 10/16/96 
         2. Re: TNE Sectors
         3. Re: Those names...
         4. Cut-off Digests
         5. Re: Traveller Costuming
         6. Re: The 2D Task System, V.1.1
         7. Re: Traveller Task Talk
         8. Re: Misjumps and far empires
         9. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
        10. [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage
        11. Re: Traveller Task Talk
        12. Re: Background music
        13. Re: 2D Task System for GMs
        14. Re: PART TWO:  Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!
        15. Re: Misjumps and far empires
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #568
        17. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:52:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: IG FAQ - 10/16/96 

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, That Computer Guy wrote:

> Okay, just a little venting here.  The above is a crock of shit!  I
> don't think that they were shipped in any order.

Gee.  I wish someone would mark the land-mines for me; I keep stepping in 
them. :)


> How do I know.  Well, if they were shipped in the order that they were
> placed, then mine would've been the *first* yes, I said *first* one
> shipped.  I literally placed my order two minutes after the homepage was
> changed and the offer was added!!!.  Hell, I called and Shirley told me
> I was the first customer of their entire operation.
> 
> So, if mine was sent out *first*, then why was it postmarked Oct 7th
> which as we all know is two weeks after a whole slew of other people
> received them?

Uhmmm...would it help if it said, "In *roughly* the same sequence in 
which the orders were received?" :)

I imagine it would have been done thusly (though I don't know):  First, 
get all the signed hardbacks out(?), Second, get the rest of the 
pre-gen-con orders out, third, get the Gen-Con and post-gen-con orders 
out.  In each of these break-points, the individual books didn't go out 
in chronological order, but the break-points/groups were done in 
chronological order.

While I am almost certainly wrong about the break-points, I can imagine 
there being such break-points.  In general, earlier orders went out 
sooner than later orders.  In specific, though, that is less true.

Make sense?  (Dunno if I'm stating this clearly - I'm sleepy) It's total 
speculation on my part, but I really doubt Ken was lying about getting 
them out in an order based on when the orders were placed.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 23:40:17 GMT
Subject: Re: TNE Sectors

>>> http://www.interlog.com/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html
>>
>>But they're for a Mac and I've got an IBM clone. Waaahhh!
>
>
>        I'm a mac user but I got a 404 file not found error when I went
>looking at that URL.  Has it recently changed?

Correct URL is:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 23:48:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Those names...

>         Years ago, when I bought GDW's The Flaming Eye (my favorite
> adventure), I found a planet called MURCIA in the Massilia sector (my
> favorite sector). Funny, its a province of Spain just south of mine.
> Unfortunately, it was so funny that made impossible to keep my players
> attention when they got to the world. Imagine you live in New York and
> arrive to a planet called Fifth Avenue, or Harlem.

Well, seeing as Harlem is a city in the Netherlands, and New York was named
after York (in England), what's so strange about that?

Settlers have a tendency to name places after where they came from.  I'd
expect Murcia was settled (or conquered) by people from Murcia.  You could
even name many of teh important cities after cities and towns in the real
province.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 23:59:12 GMT
Subject: Cut-off Digests

>Anybody out there getting cut off Digests? 542 showed up with three 
>messages (listed in the TOC) missing, 543 had about 3/4 of the digest 
>missing!

I've had a couple.  There's also been a _lot_ of bandwidth lately, which may
have crashed my mail server last week.  (That is, the server crashed because
of full mailboxes, and mine had 2+ megabytes of TML digests which had arrived
in a couple of days.)

So, a request to everyone: PLEASE don't quote huge amounts of someone's
message, just to say "I agree" or "I disagree".  In a couple of recent
digests over 1/3 of the bandwidth has been quotes of previous messages.  If
we have another of these crashes I could lose my Internet email access (which
I use for more than just TML).

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:45:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

David J. Golden wrote:

>       I think there's actually a law against wearing the Congressional
>Medal of Honor if you haven't earned it.
> 
>Footnote for non-US readers: the Congressional Medal of Honor is the 
>highest military decoration in the US, so named because it requires an 
>act of congress to award it. You won't see many people wearing it 
>because the actions that earn it usually kill the person.

I beleive I saw a 20/20 or Sixty Minutes that said it was a federal 
offence to wear or claim you had earned a CMH when you had not...

I think this same article said there were only a handful of people still 
alive who had earned the CMH.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:43:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The 2D Task System, V.1.1

Just found a confusing typo in my revised 2D Task System:

At the end, I said:
"...increase the difficulty two levels for each extra action (-2 to the
target number)..."

That should, of course, be "(-2 to the first digit of the target number)". So:

"The T4 Multiple Actions rule will not work in this system. A new rule is
needed: when attempting multiple actions, do not reduce the stat mods.
Instead, increase the difficulty two levels for each extra action (-2 to
the first digit of the target number). Thus, for a character with stat of 7
and skill of 6, the target number for a single Difficult action is 56-; for
two such actions, 36-; for three, 16-. (Obviously, this rule does not allow
characters to perform as many extra actions as the original rule.) [I would
be interested to hear suggestions for a better formulation of this rule.]"

This is what happens when I'm typing through a bout of insomnia...

Glenn



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:45:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Task Talk

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>   Introductory note: While Kenneth and I pretty consistently refer to each
> other personally in these postings, I'm sure that neither of us means to
> exclude comments by third-parties (otherwise we'd write by private mail), so
> if you see anything below that you want to respond to, please do.

This goes double for me.  I welcome everyone's comments.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:57:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Misjumps and far empires

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

> misjumps allowed up to Jump-36, or am I confused?)
>         Then, what happens with misjumped ships that do not re-appear. 

I'm not sure bout this ...

>Starting
> from a colony ship which misjumped and contacted by a few other misjumped
> crews over the millenia, they built a pocket empire whith all the familiar
> races present, but a totally different political framework.. and some
> strange technology developments. And they wanna know of their ancient homes!
> Looks like an interesting campaign.
>         Is it plausible? What do you travellers think?

Hmm, IMHO its quite improbable, that they all misjump to the same place, 
BUT --
You can try to put it that way. There is a somewhat strange astrophysical 
phenomenon (kinda space-time-distortion or so, produced by a big 
gravitation-source), which is never located at the same place, but 
appeares here and there, now and then. It could influence every jump, 
which is processed in its region, in the same way, redirecting them to 
the same time and space (I know, a little bit like a wormhole, but not 
that local, and with a bigger region of influence)

Does this sound more convenient?

Cya.
Buddy
> -----------------------------
> Carlos Alos-Ferrer
> Geonee Sourcebook in progress
> -----------------------------

- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:01:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

>C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)

I think it means "The World/Universe/Globe......".  A lot of help that is,
I can't figure out the ....bund part.  It might indicate government or
home, but one thing is sure, it's a German phrase.

BTW Thanks for the reply.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing       |
| Modern Micro-Armor, and Warhammer (all settings) Wargaming   |



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 01:58:38 -0400
Subject: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage

Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com> wrote:
> Question 1:
> Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
> every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?
> Any one have comments on how they handle this issue?

There are a couple of non-official things you can do; after all, flexability
is one of the hallmarks of Traveller - if you don't like things, change
them.  I have successfully used both of the following in my campaigns:

1) Allow Engineering skill as a favorable DM to avoid misjump.  This way,
   a ship that has a qualified Engineer (skill level 1 or better) will
   never misjump unless it's mistreated (by using unrefined fuel, or by
   trying to jump too close to a planet).  The main drawback of this is that
   truly skilled chief engineers can keep the ship going with virtually no
   chance of misjump, even when doing things that _ought_ to cause them.

2) Allow the Engineer a "saving throw" to avoid the misjump - by aborting
   the jump sequence, or some other last-minute act of desperation.  In
   general, I allow a successful throw to avoid the misjump, but the jump
   drive is then damaged and inoperable until it's repaired (more work for 
   the engineer).

Imposing randomly-generated disasters on the PCs with no saving throw and no
direct influence from the players doesn't really contribute to the
role-playing.  Use the die rolls to prime your imagination, and set up a
scenario where the characters can (try) to avoid their fate or deal with it.
If I'm going to arbitrarily have their ship misjump for No Good Reason, I
prefer to do it in a time and place that advances my plotline.

> What do you do if your characters jump into an empty parsec?

In general, I dislike shipping players off to their doom simply by random
die rolling.  If you're ready to add this to your campaign's storyline, and
if the PCs have the things they need to deal (see below) with the problem,
then go for it.  If you don't want to do this, or if they're not equipped to
survive it (and you don't want to kill them all off), then just fudge the
die roll and send them to a nonfatal but inconvenient world ... on the
other side of the sector.

To survive a misjump into empty space, you've almost _got_ to have enough
low berths for everyone, as well as a working sublight drive on the starship,
a working power plant, and enough fuel remaining in the tanks to run the power
plant at full power for a three to six months, plus minimum power (enough to
run the low berths, computer, and nothing else) for a few decades.

The general plan would be to locate the ship and program a course to a
nearby system where fuel and/or repairs are available.  Even so, the trip
will take quite a while (beyond the ship's emergency life-support reseves),
so everyone will have to go into the low berths and trust the computer to
handle the navigation (one option would be to have the computer wake someone
periodically to check over the ship and course).  As the ship is
decelerating, it could then wake the crew and passengers.  Assuming that
everyone survived the low berth experience, there would still be the matter
of getting the ship repaired and refuelled, and than there's the large
amount of time that's passed while the PCs were in cold storage.

Other solutions are, of course, possible; and (presuming you want the
campaign to continue), I'd probably allow just about anything that sounded
plausible, and see what the players came up with.  Transmitting a radio
message and then going into low berths might work, and rigging some kind of
ramscoop system to collect hydrogen to fuel the drive would be a
possibility.

> When a trader ship mis-jumps (not if, see above), how do
> you handle things like freight (due some port off there),
> High and Low passengers?

You try to do the best you can, and pray you don't loose your shirt.

>From a referee's perspective, this would be one way to knock prosperous
characters back down to starving-and-barely-getting-by status.
If you don't want to break the characters, it _might_ be reasonable to
assume that the cost of the damages is covered by the ship's insurance
policy - if the PCs can prove that the misjump wasn't caused by their own
negligence.


Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com> asked:
> [QSDS] It seems to be a nice easy to use system, a bit limited,

Thanks!  :-)

> I can't wait for the system which allows you to use other than standardized
> modules.

It's on it's way.  There's a more advanced system by Dave Golden, the
"Standard Starship Design System" that'll be in the Starships book.  Dave
and the rest of us are currently working on the "ultimate" system,
(currently called the Naval Architect's Handbook) that'll allow you just
about any option imaginable.

> [thruster plates]  don't use fuel, they use power.

Right.

> Now say I've got a ship that produces 1000Mw, it will use the same amount
> of fuel in a year, wether or not I us the thruster plates.  Is this correct?

Right. 

If you weren't using the full power output of the plant, you could throttle
it back and use less fuel.  Since the fuel consumption listed in QSDS is to
run the plant at full output for six months, the savings usually isn't worth
keeping track of.

If you've misjumped into the middle of nowhere, and have to figure out how
to make six months worth of fuel last a few decades, then it might be
important.

> I'm asking because Classic and Mega both use a certain amout of fuel per
> time period for there manuever drives.

In Classic Traveller, it was stated that the amount of fuel required was
"negligable", and I don't recall that anyone ever bothered to keep track of
it.  The power required was an important component of a High Guard ship
design, though.  In MegaTraveller, the maneuver drives didn't use fuel,
just electricity (just like T4); however MegaTraveller power plants required
truly enormous amounts of fuel for the power generated, so keeping track of
the power usage and fuel consumption was important.

Some T4 drives do use fuel - the HEPlaR drive (familiar to everyone who
played Traveller: The New Era) is still in T4, and HEPlaR ships can be built
with QSDS.  If you don't want thruster plates in your campaign, you can
just build HEPlaR ships.  In Milleu 0, most planets with a TL high enough to
build Thrusters don't bother with HEPlaR anymore.

Guy "wildstar" Garnett,
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:20:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Task Talk

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>   Introductory note: While Kenneth and I pretty consistently refer to each
> other personally in these postings, I'm sure that neither of us means to
> exclude comments by third-parties (otherwise we'd write by private mail), so
> if you see anything below that you want to respond to, please do.

This goes double for me.  I'm interested in seeing everyone's opinion.

 

> [Regarding my claim that skill-levels in T4 seem to be worth less on a
> point-for-point basis than they were in CT/MT]:

 
>     In the new system
> we not only have the possibility of up to 6 skills per Term, we also have
> all those background skills and special bonuses from Higher Education and
> such.  If we follow the old CT/MT conventional wisdom that level 1 is
> "trained," levels 2-3 are "experienced", levels 4-5 are "expert" and level-6+
> is "superbad", then it seems that we've gone from one extreme (the
> marginally-trained CT Scouts and Others) to the other (where every character
> has an incredibly diverse knowledge and skill base, and is a certified expert
> in several fields).  

(snippage throughout of some very well stated opinons)

 I also think it's a telling sign that T4 seems to have
> done away with level-0 ("marginally trained") and now assigns level-1 in all
> of those old cases.

Have you compared characters generated under T4 to those generated under the CT/MT 1 yr. 
method for scouts, mercenaries, merchants, and naval personnel?  I have, and they come 
out very close to characters generated under T4.

Those systems had the education options, and MT/TNE provided background skills.  As a 
matter of fact, I converted characters in my campagin so they would be compatible with 
T4 generated characters.  All of the characters generated under the CT/MT 1 year method 
needed little conversion.  All of the characters generated under the CT/MT 4 year method 
needed a lot of conversion--they were very shy on skills.

I have always not liked the difference in characters produced by the two methods in CT 
and MT.  If you generated a scout, merchant, mercenary, or naval character, you could 
end up with a good, multi-skilled character.  If you wanted to be a noble, belter, law 
enforcer, etc., and you used the 4 year method, your character would not be near as 
good.

I still contend that the increase in skills under the 4 year method in T4 was designed 
to make these character classes more compatible with those generated under the 1 year 
method.  As I said in my last post, I'd like to see a supplement that has a number of 
character classes generated using the 1 year method.

> I guess what I'm trying to say is to be careful when designing the
> task-fix to base it on characters under the new rules (regarding which, I
> thought the "average" PC you posted seemed pretty puny compared to what I've
> generated: do you recall how many Terms he went through?) 

Point well taken.  I keep saying that I want to spend a lot of time with this task fix 
to ensure that we come up with a good system.  

The average PC, Ulric Harrisani, was generated using the MT merchant 1 year merchant 
rules.  He is a graduate of the Mora Merchant Academy, and has 12 years experience under 
his belt.  The interesting thing is, when I did the conversion to T4, he was not that 
deficient in skills.  I counted his skill levels and compared that to what he would have 
had if he would have been generated under the T4 system.  I was careful to include 
background skills and merchant academy benefits.  You know what?  Ulric was only 3 skill 
levels shy that if he was created in T4.  I'd consider that pretty close, and this is 
another reason why I believe that the skills are still weighted the same as in CT/MT.

>   Maybe I've accidentally erased something, but I haven't seen this fix that
> you're referring to posted.  If somehow I did miss it, could someone either
> email it to me or tell me which digest it appeared in?

This has been posted under "Ken's Task Fix Prototype!".  I've posted two parts, and I'll 
get to the last part either today or in the next few days.

Regards, 

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:39:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Background music

 Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> asks,
 re: 
>Glenn Grant wrote:
>> _Passion_, Peter Gabriel's excellent soundtrack to _The Last
>> Temptation_.
>
>Is this _The Last Temptation of Christ_?

That's right. (CD on Real World Records). The soundtrack might well be the
best part of the film... 

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:39:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 2D Task System for GMs

James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> said,

>Glenn has done an excellent job of designing and explaining his new task
>system.  For all refs who are considering using this system (as I am), I
>have re-orged his work into a single, simple, referee sheet.  Enjoy!

Thanks Jim! Very kind of you -- I was thinking of doing this myself. My
description of the system was overly wordy because I was striving for
clarity (perhaps too much). Thanks for the "condensed Lite" version!

</editor mode:> BTW, "dice" is plural; "die" is singular. :)

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:45:27 -0700
Subject: Re: PART TWO:  Ken's Task Fisk Prototype!

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> Any word from IG on this issue?  Do they see a problem with it, and
> if so, wouldd they do anything, or is it too fundamental a change?

There has been no word from IG because nobody has contacted them yet.  Joe Walsh 
mentioned in one of his posts that he spoke with Ken Whitmant about it, but Ken gave 
a brush off answer saying that IG publishes rule guidelines.  As referees, we can all 
change the system to fit our needs.  This is all how it should be, but I think that 
there should be an official fix to the problems in the T4 task system.  

My goal is to come up with a good system that, at the minimum, we can use in our 
campaigns.  After it gets hacked out here on the TML, and we get all the bugs worked 
out, I plan on sending a copy to IG in the hopes that it will be published as an 
optional rule in some supplement down the road.

Look at CT, for instance.  They had the range based combat system in Book.  Then, 
Snapshot was published to improve on those rules and add more detail.  A year later, 
Azhanti High Lightning was published wich improved the Snapshot rules.  I'm hoping that 
a rules fix to the T4 task system can be implemented somewhere with some of its future 
products.

Thanks for the post.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:38:11 +0100
Subject: Re: Misjumps and far empires

>Hmm, IMHO its quite improbable, that they all misjump to the same place,
>BUT --
>You can try to put it that way. There is a somewhat strange astrophysical
>phenomenon (kinda space-time-distortion or so, produced by a big
>gravitation-source), which is never located at the same place, but
>appeares here and there, now and then. It could influence every jump,
>which is processed in its region, in the same way, redirecting them to
>the same time and space (I know, a little bit like a wormhole, but not
>that local, and with a bigger region of influence)
>
>Does this sound more convenient?
>
>Cya.
>Buddy

Well if you misjump in a sphere of 36 parsecs around a busy system then
within 1000 years it is NOT improbable that several ships misjump to the
same system but there's a high propability that the one that got there
prior to you is already dead when you arrive. Cool idea by the way, I'll
use it methinks.
Wasn't the abyss in Spinward marches supposed to work a bit like that
according to library data?


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:49:40 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #568

> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 
> Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
> the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?
> 
> A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
> Enterprises.  [copyright symbol] 1996" in the document, and IG will be fine 
> with it, so long as you don't sell you work (or make money off of it in 
> any way) - see below.
 
> Q.  If I make an original work for Traveller, who owns it?
> 
> A.  You do.  But, you cannot make money off of it without doing one of 
> the following:
> 
>     1)  Get a Letter of Permission (call or write to IG for details)
>     2)  Become a Licensee (call or write to IG for details)
>     3)  Have a Licensee publish your work (call or write IG for details)
 
> Q.  Is there any way around this?
> 
> A.  Yes.  Don't mention Traveller in your article, and don't pull 
> material from any Traveller product.  Say it is an article for use with 
> science fiction RPG's, and keep it generic.
 
> Q.  Can IG or FFE publish my original Traveller work without my permission?
> 
> A.  No.  They cannot take your original work and publish it without first 
> getting your permission.
 
> Q.  What is the policy regarding copying previously published works by 
> GDW to the internet (or elsewhere)?
> 
> A.  You have to get written permission from Marc Miller 
> (FarFuture@aol.com) in order to legally do so.  He holds all the 
> copyrights on all such material.
 

  As a long-time opponent to TSR's copyright 'policy', I just wanted
to say that I like IG's copyright policy.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:02:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> >C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)
> 
> I think it means "The World/Universe/Globe......".  A lot of help that is,
> I can't figure out the ....bund part.  It might indicate government or
> home, but one thing is sure, it's a German phrase.

Yep, it is. But it schould be "DER Weltbund", not "DIE Weltbund".
Weltbund is a combination of two words.
"Welt" means world
"Bund" means if used like this federation or confederacy.
As "Bund" is a male word, it has to be "der" (masculinum).
"Die" is female (femininum).
In english, there is nothing like "der" or "die" (or "das", which is 
neutrum). It's just THE. This is, why it's so difficult for 
englishspeakers to learn roman languages. And "der, die, das" is not 
always used in a very logical manner.

Sorry for the use of bandwidth, but as we Traveller are intercultural, I 
think I could work a little bit as a link. ;-)

CyA. Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #569
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 17 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 570

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Those Names
         2. LAST PART:  Ken's Task Fix Prototype!
         3. Unexplored Core...
         4. Not quite on topic, but...
         5. Major/Minor
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530
         7. Re: A few Questions/Comments
         8. Re: Starship Economics & Misjumps
         9. Re: Traveller Costuming
        10. Re: 3,2,1...0
        11. Re: 3,2,1...0
        12. Striker II SU*KS
        13. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
        14. Re: Starship Economics Problems
        15. "We" at DGP? Whose "we"?
        16. ... and thanks for all the fish
        17. Re: Traveller Costuming
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #568

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nwhitehe@mic.dundee.ac.uk (Dhivael)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:11:22 +0100
Subject: Re: Those Names

>>         Years ago, when I bought GDW's The Flaming Eye (my favorite
>> adventure), I found a planet called MURCIA in the Massilia sector (my
>> favorite sector). Funny, its a province of Spain just south of mine.
>> Unfortunately, it was so funny that made impossible to keep my players
>> attention when they got to the world. Imagine you live in New York and
>> arrive to a planet called Fifth Avenue, or Harlem.
>
>Once upon a time, my group would have thought it was funny - we would
>have enjoyed it.  Later on, we would have figured the game designer(s)
>ran out of ideas, and denigrated them and their paltry efforts.
>Perhaps interestingly, these days we would once again find it funny. :)
>Getting older and milder, I guess. [G]

I don't think it's all that unrealistic to have these names - after all,
how many New World cities are named after Old World cities? Harlem is in
the Netherlands, so surely the same spirit that caused settlers to name
their New World town after their home town would apply in setlling planets.
It would make the place just that little less alien.

>>         So, if IG produces maps for different ages in the Imperium, please,
>> please, it would be nice if real maps are not used... not that explaining
>> all those Solomani names far away from Terra is difficult (it is), just to
>> avoid my players laughing at me instead of with me ;-)

Different maps for different eras already exist - there's certainly one
of the Solomani Rim during the Interstellar Wars which has all of the
original Vilani names on it. It's quite interesting to compare it with the
later map to see which ones have changed.

Nik

****************************************************************************
                         More deadly than the Male.
           Dr. Nik Whitehead - Seeker of the Lost Island of Munga
                http://www.mcs.dundee.ac.uk:8080/~nwhitehe/
****************************************************************************



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 04:28:42 -0700
Subject: LAST PART:  Ken's Task Fix Prototype!

LAST PART:  KEN'S TASK FIX PROTOTYPE!

What has gone on before?
	Ken's Task Fix Prototype! discussed goals for this project and how/if I obtained 
	them.

	Part Two:  Ken's Task Fix Prototype!  This is where I presented an easy fix to 	
the difficulty system in T4.  People who are interested in a quick and dirty fix 	
to the probability problem in T4 should look at this system.  It's easy.  It's 	quick.  
And it is very, very compatible with the T4 system (only dice for two 	categories are 
changed).




What is in this post?
	Last Part:  Ken's Task Fix Prototype!  contains a proposal for target number 	
	calculation different from that in T4.  If you don't like a character's ability 
	rating to be weighted more than twice as much as his skill level, then this is 	
	the post for you.

	



So, we've had some problems with the T4 task system.  I believe that the probability 
issue was fixed in my last post, but I still have a problem with the T4 system.  That 
is--I don't like a character's governing attribrute to have more impact on the task 
throw than his skill does.  

Someone on this list, I have forgotten who, posted an example that illustrates my 
point exactly.  Let's take a person with a minimal piloting skill, but with a good dex, 
and compare him to a person with low dex but a great skill.

	Jack					Jill
	Dex 10;  Pilot-1			Dex 4;  Pilot-6

Jack has always been quick and good with his hands, and he knows the basics when it 
comes to piloting a starship.

Jill, OTOH, is worse than average when it comes to manual dexterity, but she is a 
supreme pilot.

Under the T4 system, Jack's target number is 11 while Jill's is a 10, and I have a 
problem with that.  Although I really like a character's attributes playing a big part 
in the task throw (improving on the MT task system), I don't think they should outweigh 
the level of skill a character has.

So, in order to fix this, I am proposing a new way to calculate target numbers.  The 
calculation is:
			

		Skill + (Avg. of Attribrute and Aptitude)

			drop all fractions

Whoa!  You might say.  What is this aptitude thing in the calculation?  Well, this is 
something that I picked up on in one of Eris' posts.  

When I first saw the post, I thought the idea was not workable considering the scope of 
my task fix.  I want to keep everything simple and compatible with T4--drawing on the 
major strength of that system.  Eris' post discussed creating aptitude areas (like 
hand/eye coordination vs sure footedness for dexterity--both dexterity governed 
but relating to different aspects of the ability), and I thought that this would be a 
huge endeavor.  It would be a major new set of rules, and I want to stay away from 
implementing major new game mechanics to T4.

But, I really like the idea.  Take dexterity, for example.  It governs picking locks 
(intrusion), tossing a grenade (throwing), piloting a starship (pilot), shooting a 
handgun (pistol), and even dancing (dance).  These are all very different 
activities--all governed by dexterity (and rightly so).  Incorporating aptitude will put 
some differentation into these varied tasks.  A person may be a hell of a pilot, but he 
can't dance that well eventhough he's taken many, many lessons (dance-2).

What I propose is this.  We incorporate aptitude for each skill a character has by using 
the target number calculation above.  This will give more weight to the skill level than 
the published T4 system, bring down the influence of the character's ability (and still 
ensure that it has a major effect on the task throw), and differentiate the many 
activities covered by the six abilities.

Hey, folks, this is one stop shopping.

So, how do we come up with this aptitude number?  Easy.  Roll 1 D6 for each skill a 
character has.  Modify the skill with the below chart (taken from MT procedures).
		
	Stat	Aptitude DM
	1-4	0
	5-9	+1
	10-14	+2
	15	+3

The modifier will skew the roll for characters with high natural ability and still 
ensure a great deal of randomness (like when a character's stats are first rolled).

I suggest recording the character's aptitude next to the appropriate skill on the 
character's sheet.  Many tasks use two or three of the character's abilities, and for 
this, I have a some suggestions.

One choice would be to base the aptitude number on the ability that governs most of the 
actions covered by the skill.  Another (the one I use) is to average the various 
abilities, and use that number as if it were the character's ability score for DM 
purposes.  If you don't mind the additional work (which I think is too much of a 
hassel), you can come up with different aptitudes for each governing ability the skill 
has.

However you do it, the aptitude rating will give players a good indication of their 
character's natural ability at the skills they use.



Let's test our Jack and Jill characters mentioned at the top of this post.  We'll give 
Jack the average aptitude of 5, and Jill gets the average (for her dex) of 3.

Using my target number formula, Jack has a t-number of 8, and Jill's is 9.  The higher 
skill level prevails!  

Now let's look at the variance for both characters based on aptitude.  Jack's aptitude 
would range from a low of 3 to a maximum of 8.  Jill's aptitude would range from 1 to 6.

This means that Jack's t-number could range from 7 to 10--a good amount of variance 
without it going overboard.  Jill's t-number would range from 8 to 9, which is 
understandable considering her low dex.  

I like the variability here.  Jack's high dex could also mean a high aptitude for 
piloting--giving him a better target number than someone with much more experience than 
he, but this is unlikely (and in this example, it can only happen if he has an 8 
aptitude).  Jill can compete with someone who has a dex over twice as good as hers 
because of her vast experience (read skill level).

This new target number calculation will also bring down the numbers a bit on the high 
end, making the probabilities (on the prob chart listed in part two) much more 
realistic.

If you choose to use this system, I suggest pre-rolling aptitudes for each skill and 
pre-calculating target numbers.  Record both on the character's sheet, and the speed of 
the game will not be effected at all by the small amount of extra math.


So everyone, there's my system.  Go ahead and hit me with your thoughts on it.


Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: <FKiesche@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 05:02:40 -0400
Subject: Unexplored Core...

Greetings All:

Another thought on the "unexplored" core worlds (unless this has been 
already answered...there have been, what, 50 or so digests in the past 
week...nice to see this list jumping!): Marc Miller and IG have expressed 
the intention of generating some "core" (ahem, sorry for the pun) systems 
and sectors for specific adventures and the like...and leaving the rest 
up to individual referees (us folks) to devise as we like. Perhaps this 
is what they did (without explaining it to us, thus causing many bytes of 
chest pounding, insert big smile icon here) with the Core Subsector 
map--it is up to us to fill in the unexplored worlds.

So here's a suggestion. Let's work up some guidelines and make a proposal 
to IG. Marc has stated that generating 20k (or whatever the number is) 
systems would be undoable by IG. How about we help out? During the heyday 
(not so long ago) of the thickest TNE discussions we were getting many 
excellent system postings on this list. Why can't we do the same for the 
T4 universe?

Of course it would help it we could keep the Atlas of the Imperium system 
guidance...plus Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim, etc. I too would like to 
know if there is a legal problem with using the old maps (It doesn't make 
much sense...the Atlas came out before the DGP stuff...so you would think 
that GDW and now MM own the "rights" to those star patterns...thus 
allowing IG to re-use the old sector maps). But, if there is some reason 
why we **can't** use old maps, I think that with the energetic die 
rollers and active imaginations we have on this list we could fill up 
several dozen sectors in no time!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)


------------------------------

From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 05:02:35 -0400
Subject: Not quite on topic, but...

.what the heck, with all these diverse discussions of late...

If anybody has an answer to these questions, please restrict bandwidth 
waste and e-mail me directly at FKiesche@concentric.com

The questions are:

Anybody out there have a complete set of the following RPGs?

Star Ace (Pacesetter)
Universe (SPI)
Space Opera (FGU)
GURPS Space/SF-oriented modules
Star Wars (WEG)

I'm trying to build a collection of space oriented SF RPGs. I've got a 
fair start of Space Opera, I've got all--I think--of Universe, I've got 
several GURPS modules--but I want to be sure I'm not missing any...if 
anybody could point me towards FAQ's on these games, mailing lists, or 
just e-mail me a list, I'd be very grateful.

A more detailed question on Star Wars: Some friends mentioned the new 
edition. They are wishy-washy on playing in Traveller, and would like to 
play SW. Now, I could run SW using Traveller, but I'd rather run 
Traveller using Traveller and SW using SW, it's easier (if you understand 
my desire not to do lots of conversions!). Even though, a long time ago, 
on a college campus far far away, I did run SW using Traveller (sort of), 
some memories are better left being memories...

The question: Does the SW RPG have detailed rules (such as in the various 
incarnations of Traveller) for generating planets and ships?

A second question: Is there out there in net-land a mailing list on the 
SW RPG that I could direct this to? All I've found thus far are lists 
devoted to SW CCG's and other collectibles...sigh...

Thanks much!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@concentric.net)


------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:38:27 +0100
Subject: Major/Minor

>> PS Are the Aslan a major race? I hope so, I've always liked them.
>
>No, they copied the drive of a crippled Solomani starship which 
>landed on Kusyu.

Their very own Roswell Incident!  I bet this isn't common knowledge in the
Hierate! I wonder what happened to the crew.  However, the Aslan must have
been at a high enough tech-level to understand and replicate the drive, so
they probably would have developed it themselves anyway.

OTOH, perhaps this is a filthy lie put about by human propagandists and a
blasphemeous insult to the honour of the beloved wives and daughters of the
Lords of the 29 who brought glory to their clans by their Great Discovery.
<Spit, Hisssss> And you know what that means.....


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:08:56 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

In mail you write:

>> > 2. If, somehow, centuries of data has been lost or classified, pick up
>> > an astronomy textbook. Chances are, it'll have full data on all stars
>> > within, say, 50 parsecs. It may even tell you which ones have planetary
>> > systems (gas giants, especially). A small amount of work with a radio
>> > telescope will get you more info, including a TL-estimation (if they
>> > have radio or not).
>
> We only know of three systems with gas giants (and that only because they 
> are HUGE)

Observing from space makes things a lot easier. As I suggested long
ago, star data (spectral class & size) *and* presence of gas giants
should be known for everything within a sector or so. And IG really
should detail the maps to *that* level.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:05:52 PST
Subject: Re: A few Questions/Comments

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Sounds like reality to me. *Standard* instructions to people in areas
>> where they might encounter bears or cougars is to make *lots* of noise,
>> so that you don't startle them.
>> 
>> Remember, when startled *prey* flees. *Predators* attack. This is the
>> way it works in real life!
>
> Actually, many herbivores will attack (rhino, hippo, elephant)
>
> But my point was the way it was phrased, will attack if surprised. This 
> means that as long as the prey makes lots of noise, they are safe

Ah! You aren't thinking it through. Those "to attack" numbers are *not*
for *prey*, they are for *humans*. That is, the table has nothing to do
with predator-prey interaction. It has to do with interaction between
*explorers* moving thru a habitat. That's a very different situation.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:59:10 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics & Misjumps

In mail you write:

> Question 1:
>
> Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
> every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?
>
> This means that once every 36 jumps you're going to lose 
> yourself.  Add to that the fact that the density of stars
> in the "canon" universe is about .5/ parsec means that
> your ship will jump to an empty parsec about once every
> 72 jumps.  

I haven't seen the new rules, but this sounds just like the CT rule.
And the trick there was that there are DMs involved such that you
didn't misjump except under unusual circumstances. As I recall, there
was a DM for Engineering skill, and maybe one for astrogation. And I
*know* there were DMs for maintenance. Keep up the maintenance, and
keep it on schedule and you were ok, skip or post pone it, and the
chance of a a misjump is sudden;y real.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:37:48 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

In mail you write:

>     I'm putting together a Imperial Navy, c. 0, costume to wear at
> the T4 stand at OrkCon in Germany on the 1,2,3 of November.
> I've taken as my basic model the military type in Elmore's
> interior artwork in T4. However he is obviously depicting a much
> later era as the sunburst is quite clearly dark on light. The 
> Mileau-0 sunburst should be yellow on black, straight off of
> Cleon's Arms.

Believe it or not, *some* branch of the US military has a unit patch
that is a black "sunburst" on an olive drab background. But it's only a
half circle.

>     The only place I am stuck is how to do the combat ribbons.
> Is there any military person out there who can tell me how the
> real ones are done? Any suggestions on how to do a mock up?
> They just look like a bar with different coloured bits of cloth. But
> what do you use as the backing and how do you get it to stick
> to the uniform right?

The ribbons are actualy covering a "clip" in the shape of a shallow U.
This slides onto a metal bar. The bars are available in several
lengths. They have the usual "pin" and clip assembly on the back used
for badges (and for tie-tacks!). That is, there are one or more pins
that poke thru the cloth, and a gizmo that slides over the pin from the
back and latches. You press on the sides to release it.

This is based on examination of some insignia I inherited. 

BTW, you should be able to find a store (or section in a store) that
*sells* such things as common insignia and uniform parts. I'd advise
checking with someone who knows the color codes for the ribbons of
various services so as to avoid using the code for well known awards.
For example, being that the con is in Germany, you do *not* want
anything that matches a Nazi ribbon!

If IG details the insignia a bit more, they could try licensing some of
the outfits that produce patches and insignia for sale at SF cons and
the like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:18:44 PST
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In mail you write:

> For a long time, everyone thought that flight past Mach 1 would not
> be possible...

As someone pointed out *long* ago, Army Air Corp personnel would be
taught this in aeronautics class, then turn around and go fire AA guns
with muzzle velocities in excess of mach 1!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:41:52 PST
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > The first use of jump drive was entirely within the Solar System. It
>> > enabled fast expeditions to the outer worlds and made possible
>> > several colonies in the outer worlds.  UNSCA did not realize that the
>> > drives had a great enough range to reach the stars.
>> 
>> And this blows the "you can't do microjumps" theory out of the water.
>
> Yeah, but what if this gets removed from canon, he asked knowingly (sound of 
> can of worms being opened)

Then we just refer to the *other* places where microjumps are
mentioned. :-)

More seriously, consider that in reality, stars are *not* evenly
spaced. So a "1 parsec" jump could be as little as 1/4th that, or up to
almost 1.5. 

ps. I'm pretty sure that even back in CT there were references to using
in-system jumps to cover large distances. For example, between
different parts of a multiple star system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Bill Hutchinson <hbill@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:33:50 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Striker II SU*KS

I'am looking for new rules somthing other then striker 2.
For Mass man to man combat.
So has anyone came across anything???

Bill Hutchinson
TNE all the way.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hbill                                     __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____
hbill@primenet.com                       /__)/__) / / / / /_  /\  / /_    /
                                        /   / \  / / / / /__ /  \/ /___  /-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:55:54 PST
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

In mail you write:

> The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:
>
>         An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC
>
>         An Aslan with an Honor Grudge
>
>         A Hiver with an Agenda 

You forget the *most* dangerous:

	A GM with a new adventure idea...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:48:50 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

In mail, dtb@nascrag.org writes:

> Maybe the figure should be Cr145.86 per day per human-sized sophont 
> on board. :-)
>
> To take this to an extreme, maybe it should be Cr1.43 per kg of live 
> creature per day -or- Cr0.06 per kg per hour!?

Life support needs do *not* scale linearly with size, or with mass. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 17 Oct 96 12:36:08 EDT
Subject: "We" at DGP? Whose "we"?

Roger Sanger writes:
>We at  DGP...

I've dealt with Roger Sanger during the last year. To the best of my
knowledge _he_ is DGP, there is no one else. None of the original
contributors has anything to do with it anymore. Roger just owns the
material. People should keep this in mind before getting too enthusiastic.
Roger has as much to do with DGP's material as Michael Jackson does
with The Beatles music. (I.e. he just owns it.)

Unlike Michael Jackson and The Beatles, to the best of my knowledge,
Roger has achieved absolutely nothing towards publishing or making any
of the DGP material available or getting it back in print in the several years
that he has owned it. A pity really.

If I am wrong I would like to see a statement from Roger of exactly who else
is employed by DGP, or if the registered company has had any transaction
at all in the last three years.

Jo

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:54:05 +0100
Subject: ... and thanks for all the fish

     Well folks, looks like I have to leave the list again for an unknown 
     length of time :-(.  I have a new job which starts in 2 weeks time and 
     my last day with my current employer is Fri 18th.  I'm hoping I'll be 
     able to re-join with my new e-mail account, depending on my new 
     employer's attitude to such non-business use.  If I can't get access 
     via work, then I'll just have to ask for a PC for Christmas (phase 1 
     is complete - my wife is now addicted to playing Doom in her lunch 
     hour at work; phase 2 will probably involve getting her a copy of 
     Quake :-) ).
     
     Take care.
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     -- 
     The piss-artist formerly known as Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:48:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

>>       I think there's actually a law against wearing the 
>Congressional
>>Medal of Honor if you haven't earned it.
>> 
>>Footnote for non-US readers: the Congressional Medal of Honor is the 
>>highest military decoration in the US, so named because it requires 
>an 
>>act of congress to award it. You won't see many people wearing it 
>>because the actions that earn it usually kill the person.
>
>I beleive I saw a 20/20 or Sixty Minutes that said it was a federal 
>offence to wear or claim you had earned a CMH when you had not...
>
>I think this same article said there were only a handful of people 
>still 
>alive who had earned the CMH.

Also, It is common courtesy for those wearing the CMH to be saluted by
those not, regardless of rank.  So SGT Joe Shmoe would be saluted by
general Powell first, who would in turn salute Gen. Powell.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:52:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #568

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Bertil Jonell wrote:

>   As a long-time opponent to TSR's copyright 'policy', I just wanted
> to say that I like IG's copyright policy.

Bertil,

I guess that means I got it right this time? [G]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 17 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 571

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Those Names
         2. Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ? 
         3. Re: Economic benefit of an onboard fuel refining plant...
         4. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
         5. Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ?
         6. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
         7. Re: A few Questions/Comments
         8. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
         9. Re: Re: Traveller Costuming
        10. Re: Hey, why did the JTAS/Starships release dates change??
        11. Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ?
        12. Re: Pouncer Attacks
        13. Those names...
        14. RE: Starship Economics & Misjumps
        15. Re: Hey, why did the JTAS/Starships release dates change??
        16. IG FAQ Observations/Questions...
        17. Re: Traveller Costuming
        18. Re: IG FAQ Observations/Questions...
        19. Who manages this list?
        20. Re: Traveller Costuming
        21. Traveller Page
        22. Sweetpea Entertainment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:22:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Those Names

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Dhivael wrote:

> I don't think it's all that unrealistic to have these names - after all,
> how many New World cities are named after Old World cities? Harlem is in

Good point.  Yet another reason not to mind (or to enjoy!) having stars 
named after Terran cities...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:43:25 +0000
Subject: Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ? 

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
> 
>      Is anybody interested in me posting the T4 ship stats for the
>      "Imperial Hope" (research ship, University of Sylea), or would they
>      just be wasted bandwidth? I get the impression that many TMLers find
>      military ships to be far more interesting than (ptooey!) civilian
>      ships.

One person, at least, is interested! ME!

BTW, if you have plans for tour ships, garbage scows or ANY starship, put them here
I love ship stats, ANY ship stats (I believe a lot of Traveller players feel the same way)

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:44:09 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Economic benefit of an onboard fuel refining plant...

Moin Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au,

>      Of course, the fuel refining plant has a definite economic benefit: 
>      you don't have to buy refined fuel. 

	On most systems (those with Class A-B starports) it's not
	allowed to tank at a gas giant, you have to refuel at the
	station. Refueling at a gas giant is common practice for
	pirates, and though forbidden in secure areas. Its also
	common that refueling service is a major part of starport
	income on low populated worlds, so its forbidden to STEAL
	LHy from the GG by local law.

	But a fpp would allow to deal in the wilds, and the wilds
	are the market for far traders.

By Michael
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:55:45 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Moin David Joseph Smart,

> C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)

	its an area first colonised form a german generation
	ship, build by MBB/Erno Bremen. The "Die" is because
	"Weltenbund" was the name of the ship ;-)

By Michael

PS : MBB/Erno-Bremen is just 10 miles from Werschenrege. They currently
     work on a lot of projects the most interesting is an ALS for 8
     people and 4 years duration.
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:04:28 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ?

Moin Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au,

>      Is anybody interested in me posting the T4 ship stats for the 
>      "Imperial Hope" (research ship, University of Sylea), or would they 
>      just be wasted bandwidth? I get the impression that many TMLers find 
>      military ships to be far more interesting than (ptooey!) civilian 
>      ships. 

	imho your post was one of the most interesting this week, as
	it provides color for the game. Hey my Empire of the "Last Sane",
	would even think of copying that idea if its mentioned in the
	"Jump Start" documents.

	If you make the deckplans, please provide GIF and Postscript
	as I prefer refreeing with the computer turned off.

By Michael
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:48:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> >C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)
> 
> I think it means "The World/Universe/Globe......".  A lot of help that is,
> I can't figure out the ....bund part.  It might indicate government or
> home, but one thing is sure, it's a German phrase.

If I remember correctly, bund means group or "hood", as in bruderbund meaning 
brotherhood. Thus Die Weltbund would seem to mean The World Bomd or World 
Group, or more loosely, United World

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:31 +0000
Subject: Re: A few Questions/Comments

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Ah! You aren't thinking it through. Those "to attack" numbers are *not*
> for *prey*, they are for *humans*. That is, the table has nothing to do
> with predator-prey interaction. It has to do with interaction between
> *explorers* moving thru a habitat. That's a very different situation.

Actually, I am thinking it through
Because, there is a listing for SURPRISE: attacks only if it has surprise
Yet, not one entry has this, only surprised (flees if surprised)

There is a typo (NO, not in an IG product?!)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:53:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:
> >
> >         An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC
> >
> >         An Aslan with an Honor Grudge
> >
> >         A Hiver with an Agenda
> 
> You forget the *most* dangerous:
> 
>         A GM with a new adventure idea...

I have you all beat....

A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game mechanics

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Oct 1996 10:56:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Traveller Costuming

>you might want to specify that you want non-US and
>non-combat awards only, some veterans get pretty upset...

You might want to stick to non-combat ribbons.  There are veterans from many
different armies, after all.  Treat other army's decorations with the same
respect you treat your own, and you won't offend anyone.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Oct 1996 10:53:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Hey, why did the JTAS/Starships release dates change??

>Thereafter, unforseen situations can arise which cause the dates to be 
>moved back.  

Hey, better late than error-ridden.  As long as they keep us apprised of the
most accurate expected release date, I can cope.  Although it would be nice
to actually receive the material when it is released.  Maybe Daniel and I
should ship IG some rancid seal blubber to help grease the shipping
department's wheels a bit. :-/

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Oct 1996 11:01:52 GMT
Subject: Re: The "Imperial Hope" - Ship stats - any value ?

> I get the impression that many TMLers find 
 >    military ships to be far more interesting than (ptooey!) civilian 
ships. 

I'd like to see it.  Personally, I find civilian and patrol ships much more
interesting and useful than major military ships.

As an aside, when I was running the MegaTraveller Referees' Exchange, I
noticed that although most designers prefered military ships, most of the
ship requests were for civilian ships.  I would say you have a nice niche if
you like designing civilian ships.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Oct 1996 11:20:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Pouncer Attacks

>         pouncers, trappers and sirens attck only if _they_ are
>	  surprised (careful, Johnny. Make sure that Mountain Lion
>	  knows you are here or he will rip you apart for scaring him.

Sounds right.  Pouncers will attack you to eat if they surprise you (and you
look tasty), they will attack you in defense if you surprise them.

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 11:34:38 -0400
Subject: Those names...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer  wrote:
> Funny, in one
>subsector there was a Benidorm (a small town twenty km north of here), an
>Igualada (farther north, and smaller) and a Gaspar (a very common spanish
>name). Imagine a subsector with a Washington, a Boston and a Peter. I think
>I am not going to referee anything there :-).

Well I grew up in the state of Connecticut in the Northeastern US. Its
part of the region called New England.  There are town named
Manchester, New Britian, New London, etc.  I am sure there are more
towns where the residents just named their towns after towns back in
England, but my knowladge of towns in England is rather sparse.  

The Solomani ruled the Second Imperium, so it makes perfect sense that
they named or renamed many of the planets after things back home. 


Lewis Roberts
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why Don't Cannibals Eat Clowns?  lewis@chara.gsu.edu
A:They taste funny!                http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:04:08 -0700
Subject: RE: Starship Economics & Misjumps

Also, consider what a 'critical failure' might mean besides a misjump: 

1.  The jump went fine, but the ship's velocity vector is way, way off.
Spend an extra three days altering your vector back towards the planet.

2.  The jump is on target, but it's a bad trip.  Everyone gets jump
sick.

3.  The jump is on target (mostly), but the Jump Drive will need at
least three weeks of work before it's safe to jump again.

4.  While in JumpSpace the jump field begins unraveling.  Everyone
looking out the portholes goes bonkers as they get a first hand view of
high-dimensional space.

However I agree that misjumps should not just be handed out by the dice.
 There should be a purpose to what happens to the characters--bad luck
should either be Hurbis, or Serendipity!

Jeffrey

>----------
>From: 	shadow@krypton.rain.com[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
>Sent: 	Thursday, October 17, 1996 1:59 AM
>To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: 	Re: Starship Economics & Misjumps
>
>In mail you write:
>
>> Question 1:
>>
>> Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
>> every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?
>>
>> This means that once every 36 jumps you're going to lose 
>> yourself.  Add to that the fact that the density of stars
>> in the "canon" universe is about .5/ parsec means that
>> your ship will jump to an empty parsec about once every
>> 72 jumps.  
>
>I haven't seen the new rules, but this sounds just like the CT rule.
>And the trick there was that there are DMs involved such that you
>didn't misjump except under unusual circumstances. As I recall, there
>was a DM for Engineering skill, and maybe one for astrogation. And I
>*know* there were DMs for maintenance. Keep up the maintenance, and
>keep it on schedule and you were ok, skip or post pone it, and the
>chance of a a misjump is sudden;y real.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:23:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hey, why did the JTAS/Starships release dates change??

On 17 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Hey, better late than error-ridden.  As long as they keep us apprised of the
> most accurate expected release date, I can cope.  Although it would be nice
> to actually receive the material when it is released.  Maybe Daniel and I
> should ship IG some rancid seal blubber to help grease the shipping
> department's wheels a bit. :-/

:)  Well, IIRC the web-page said something about getting future products 
shipped out in a more timely manner.  We'll see how the JTAS and 
Starships shipments do.  If they're slow, you might want to go ahead with 
that seal blubber idea. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:31:52 -0500
Subject: IG FAQ Observations/Questions...

jw> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
jw> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:10 -0500 (CDT)
jw> Subject: IG FAQ - 10/16/96
jw>
jw> Imperium Games FAQ October 16, 1996
jw>
jw> <Snip!>
jw>
jw> Q. What is the scope of CSC?
jw>
jw> A. CSC will have a huge amount of equipment, as well as a very
jw> robust small craft design system. CSC's focus is on equipment
jw> available in Milieu 0.

Joe,

Quick observation...  FAQ's should not have non-standard abbreviations
unless there is a glossary at the beginning of the text.  You, I and the
TML know what _CSC_ means but the average person doesn't.  T4, IG and FFE
might be exceptions, but perhaps the first time that they are referenced
the abbreviation should also included:  For example: Imperium Games (IG)
FAQ, and Marc Miller's Traveller (T4) is a registered trademark by
FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).  Sorry if I'm being nitpicky...  Just try'en
to improve the product, boss!

A couple of questions:

Would it be possible to include information as to how to subscribe to TML
and xboat in the FAQ?

Am I correct in assuming that it is ok to publish the FAQ?  I realize that
this may be a stupid question but it is better to ask and know for sure.
Should we include the disclaimers if we do?

In the next edition of the FAQ would you include an updated version of the
IG Copyright policy you posted in Traveller-digest V1996 #567?  A snippet
of it follows below (because I have a question about it!):

jw> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
jw> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:32:58 -0500 (CDT)
jw> Subject: IG's Copyright/Trademark Policy
jw>
jw> (Clarification)

<Snip!>

jw> IG Copyright Policy
jw>
jw> If you produce an original work for use with Traveller, you are the
jw> copyright holder (see copyright law for details). You own that
jw> original work.
jw>
jw> However, IG and FFE ask that you put the trademark notice on that
jw> original work. This is done in order to protect their trademark.

Is it ok to clarify the "standard" FFE Trademark text as follows to clearly
delineate whom owns which copyright?

Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture Enterprises, and it is
Copyright (c) 1996.                                           ^^^^^^^^^
                                                              |||||||||

Sorry, if I'm being over precise, but I don't want to step on anyone's
toes.   I want IG/FFE to succeed beyond the wildest hopes of anyone.  I
want them to be as big or bigger of a player in the hobby as T$R, WoTC,
SJG, etc...  A solid relationship between the IG/FFE and T4 players is one
of the best ways to facilitate this.  The better we have this defined now
the fewer problems will arise in the (far)future...

Joe,  I also want to take this opportunity to personally thank you for the
time and effort you are pouring into your role as liaison between TML and
IG/FEE.  It's plain to see that it's a lot of work, and I for one
appreciate it!  Keep up the good (nie!) GREAT work!

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:39:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> I think this same article said there were only a handful of people still 
> alive who had earned the CMH.

   As someone else already mentioned, the MoH is almost always awarded
posthumously (that is, the recipient DIED while committing the act that
got him the award)

   So, obviously there WOULD only be a handful still alive! ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG FAQ Observations/Questions...

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Chuck Maddox wrote:

> Quick observation...  FAQ's should not have non-standard abbreviations
> unless there is a glossary at the beginning of the text.  You, I and the
[snip]
> FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).  Sorry if I'm being nitpicky...  Just try'en
> to improve the product, boss!

Yup.  You're right.  I'm in the process of editing the FAQ right now. :)  
I want it to flow better, be more readable, etc.  Look for the new FAQ to 
be available shortly.


> A couple of questions:
> 
> Would it be possible to include information as to how to subscribe to TML
> and xboat in the FAQ?

Hum.  Well, I'd rather not broaden the FAQ beyond simply Traveller and 
IG.  But, a pointer to the TML web site would be appropriate.  I'll put 
that in there, as that site explains in detail how to subscribe, what TML 
is about, etc.  It's more information than I can provide in the FAQ.
Would that be suitable?


> Am I correct in assuming that it is ok to publish the FAQ?  I realize that
> this may be a stupid question but it is better to ask and know for sure.
> Should we include the disclaimers if we do?

Sure, but keep in mind that Jeff Zeitlin, Joe Heck, and...someone else (I 
forget who!) are also publishing it on their web sites.  We may end up 
wit more copies of the FAQ than we need! :)

Also keep in mind that Stu Dollar is forwarding it (suitably edited to 
point to him rather than me in the "who do i ask" answer) to useNET, 
since that is his area of responsibility as a Travellerite. 


> In the next edition of the FAQ would you include an updated version of the
> IG Copyright policy you posted in Traveller-digest V1996 #567?  A snippet
> of it follows below (because I have a question about it!):

The Oct 16 edition has this, and it will continue to be part of the FAQ.


> Is it ok to clarify the "standard" FFE Trademark text as follows to clearly
> delineate whom owns which copyright?
> 
> Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture Enterprises, and it is
> Copyright (c) 1996.                                           ^^^^^^^^^
>                                                               |||||||||

I'll clarify that.  Good thought!


> Joe,  I also want to take this opportunity to personally thank you for the
> time and effort you are pouring into your role as liaison between TML and
> IG/FEE.  It's plain to see that it's a lot of work, and I for one
> appreciate it!  Keep up the good (nie!) GREAT work!

Thanks.  It's nice to get kind words once in a while. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Who manages this list?

Hi, all -- sorry to spam the list with this, but I'm at my wit's end.

I've been trying to resolve an annoying double-subscription problem, and
it looks like human intervention on the mailing-list manager's side is
going to be needed to straighten things out.  However, repeated mailings
to owner-traveller-digest@ns.mpgn.com have gone unanswered.  Who do I
contact for administrative help with this list?

Thanks in advance, and sorry once again for the interruption.  We now
return to 0.1c rocks aimed at virus-infested feudal technocracies
occupying unexplored worlds three weeks from Sylea, already in prgress. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:53:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Believe it or not, *some* branch of the US military has a unit patch
>that is a black "sunburst" on an olive drab background. But it's only a
>half circle.

The 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized), California National Guard, has a
patch that is a gold sunburst on a blue diamond.  The half-sun patch Leonard
mentions is a WWII unit and might be difficult to find.

Check in your yellow pages under embroidery and you'll find many shops that
will custom-make patches for you, some will even work off artwork on disk.
This isn't cheap, but if you are a costumer and looking for a costume that
will stand up to close scrutiny, this is the route to take.

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:04:37 -0800
Subject: Traveller Page

Hello,

Many of you have alreay visited my Traveller page, and, now, I'm proud to
announce that I'm going to be putting 'official' IG material on it, such as
the FAQ, the CSC & Mileu summaries, etc.  Other things from Joe that are
given to us (including FAQ updates) will be posted.

So, check it out, tell me what you think:

http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

Thanks!

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:12:01 -0400
Subject: Sweetpea Entertainment

Andy Lilly writes:

>I'm a bit behind on TMLs, so if anyone else has answered 
>this in the meantime, please forgive me.
>
>The primary backers for Imperium Games are Sweet Pea 
>Entertainments (hope I've got the name right), based in 
>California. This is why IG invoices have suddenly started 
>having California addresses on them.

THE FOLLOWING IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY
DO NOT HARASS ANYONE OR THE RESULTING BAD KARMA
WILL CAUSE A VALUABLE APPENDAGE TO DROP OFF YOUR
BODY

(sorry for shouting--some people are hard of hearing)

D&B Business Information Report
(c) 1996 Dun & Bradstreet, Inc.  All rts. reserv.

Sweetpea Entertainment, Inc
211 S Beverly Dr Ste 208
Beverly Hills, CA  90212-3828

TELEPHONE: 213-876-<CENSORED>
COUNTY: LOS ANGELES     
MSA: 4480  (Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA)
REGION: Pacific

BUSINESS: Film Production Company

PRIMARY SIC:
 7812       Motion picture and video production, nsk
  78120000   Motion picture and video production, nsk

LATEST YEAR ORGANIZED:  1994
STATE OF INCORPORATION:  CA    
DATE OF INCORPORATION: 01/20/1994
ANNUAL SALES REVISION DATE: 01/15/1996

SALES:                       $ 380,000 (US dollars, est.)
EMPLOYEES TOTAL:              4
EMPLOYEES HERE:               4

SALES GROWTH:  NA %  NET WORTH: $             NA
EMPLOYMENT GROWTH:  NA %
NUMBER OF ACCOUNTS: NA

FACILITIES:  Occupies premises in building.
SQUARE FOOTAGE: NA
LOCATION:  Suburban business section on well traveled street.

THIS IS:

    A  SINGLE LOCATION
    A  CORPORATION

DUNS NUMBER:             87-482-9542

CHAIRMAN:          Benitz, John  /Co-Pres-Co-Chm
                            Solomon, Courtney S  /Co-Pres-Co-Chm
PRESIDENT:         Solomon, Courtney S  /Co-Pres-Co-Chm
                            Benitz, John  /Co-Pres-Co-Chm

HISTORY

   Business started 1994 by the officers.  50% of capital stock 
is owned by Courtney S Solomon.  50% of capital stock is 
owned by John Benitz.

   Courtney S. Solomon born 1970.  1991-present active here.

   John Benitz born 1960.  1991-present active here.  1985-91
employed by Prudential Bache Securities Asia Pacific, Hong Kong.

OTHER SIGNIFICANT INFORMATION

   There is a TSR connection.  Sweetpea Entertainment owns the 
rights to the screenplay of "Dungeons & Dragons: The Movie".
Since Ken Whitman (and others at IG) are former TSR employees,
this might explain how they came together originally.

   Here is what I found about the movie, from a FAQ file on the Internet:

     "The movie & merchandizing rights to a Dungeons & Dragons movie have
    been bought by Sweetpea Entertainment.  They are aiming at a 
    production cost of $50 million and a release date somewhere around
    Christmas of 1996 or summer of 1997.  The movie will be a combination 
    of live action and computer animation.  Stan Winston, the man
    behind the digital effects in _Terminator II_ and _Jurassic Park_,
    has been brought in to aid Sweetpea with the movie.  The script, 
    which was written by Topper Lilien and Carrol Cartwright and is 
    apparently not based on a specific TSR product, involves an 
    inexperienced sorceress and a quick-witted rogue who are on a quest 
    to find an artifact which could control gold dragons and to keep 
    said artifact out of the hands of the villain, who happens to be a 
    wizard.  Stay tuned to rgfd for any further announcements about this 
    movie."

   This implies that while the information from D&B I found on Sweetpea 
shows only has four employees, that number may not reflect private
contractors or temporary employees brought in to work on the production
of the film.

FINAL ANALYSIS

   Sweetpea Entertainment is a small, private corporation that was 
founded less than three years ago and is involved primarily in the film 
industry.  As such, it is difficult (but apparently not totally impossible)
to find out information about them.

   How they came about funding the resurrection of Traveller 
would I'm sure make an interesting story, should Mr. Solomon and/or 
Mr. Benitz like to tell us about it some day.  At this point we can only
speculate as to why.

   I welcome any comments from the gallery....

Regards,

Harold


   



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #571
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Traveller-digest         Thursday, 17 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 572

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562
         2. IISS Uniforms
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (detecting things at distances)
         5. misjump probabilities
         6. Die Weltbund
         7. The new Core subsector
         8. Re: Misjumps and Far Empires
         9. RE: IISS Uniforms 
        10. T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements
        11. UNSUBSCRIBE: Help, please.
        12. Re: Starship Economics Problems
        13. IG FAQ - 10/17/96
        14. Bwaps (because YOU asked for it!), CD-ROM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 18:08 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562

In-Reply-To: <9610160449.AA00515@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:21:43 GMT
Subject: Unmapped Territory

>By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
>territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your 
adventurers
>to particpate in defining theteritory.

Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are, 
well, 'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.  That way people can safely 
develop areas knowing that future IG products will fit right in with 
their campaigns.  And those of us that don't have time to lovingly 
detail sectors can rely on the official background, which will of course 
include fairly large contiguous areas for adventuring. >>

And of course the PCs would never dream of wandering over into areas 
they know the ref knows nothing about, just to be awkward...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IISS Uniforms

Hi.

Rich Ostorero (and Matthew Mactyre) wrote:

>From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:33:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

[...]
> >I agree Scouts are often rebels, but they are also survival-oriented rebels.
> >Of course, the concept of a dress uniform would likely be laughed at by
> >the vast majority of scouts.
> 
> The IISS in my gaming world are rebels, criminals, the truly dedicated and
> other eccentrics.  However, they take quite a bit of pride in their service
[...]

Hmm... Rebels? Criminals? Doesn't sound like the kind of people I'd
want delivering my mail. Or making my maps. Or handling delicate liasons
with newly (re)contacted civilizations.

I'd want really reliable, methodical people for all these jobs.

I'd want people who were so conformist that they didn't even need
(or care about) a pecking order to get things done. I'd want
people so dedicated that they'd risk extraordinary danger.
Heck, I'd want monks and nuns, or the bureaucratic equivalent.
And that would be... scouts.

Uniforms? Nothing showy. Simple, ascetic, utilitarian, like a jet black
jumpsuit.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 18:08 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562

In-Reply-To: <9610160449.AA00515@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 00:21:43 GMT
Subject: Unmapped Territory

>By leaving large expanses blank (specifically within the
>territory of the upcoming Imperium) we make it possible for your 
adventurers
>to particpate in defining theteritory.

Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are, 
well, 'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.  That way people can safely 
develop areas knowing that future IG products will fit right in with 
their campaigns.  And those of us that don't have time to lovingly 
detail sectors can rely on the official background, which will of course 
include fairly large contiguous areas for adventuring. >>

And of course the PCs would never dream of wandering over into areas 
they know the ref knows nothing about, just to be awkward...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:41:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (detecting things at distances)

Shadow writes

>Observing from space makes things a lot easier. As I suggested long
>ago, star data (spectral class & size) *and* presence of gas giants
>should be known for everything within a sector or so. And IG really
>should detail the maps to *that* level.

Right. A moderate sized standard starship sensor set, in fact, can
probably detect gas giants out to a distance of a sector, and 
earthlike planets at ranges of a few parsecs. (See the various NASA
ExNPS web pages and/or the recent scientific american article for more
info; there are serious proposals for a space mission that will detect
earthlike planets around nearby stars sometime early next century; 
and I've participated in a design study on using Keck to detect gas giants
(through direct imaging, not radial velocities) and it's not hard - and would
be very easy with a Keck-in-space. A P3 sensor is roughly as capable as Keck;
a P6 is capable of detecting earthlike planets out to 12 parsecs or so.

There are (more questionable) NASA proposals to use seperated-spacecraft
interferometers to *image* features on the surface of earthlike planets
around nearby stars; I personally think it's ludicrous for the next 20-30
years, but at TL12 it's probably not hard - most universities on Sylea
probably have access to a multispacecraft interferometric telescope setup
that could resolve features at the 10-km level at ranges of a few parsecs.

(Someday, I'm going to write a JTAS article on this.)

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:43:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: misjump probabilities

Hi.

Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com> wrote:
> Question 1:
> Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
> every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?
> Any one have comments on how they handle this issue?

I'm pretty sure (don't have my book with me) that the one-in-thirtysix
rule only applies to users of unrefined fuel. If you use refined fuel
and keep your drives maintained, and only jump at safe distances, then
your chance of misjump is zero.

This was the case in CT. You may want to re-read the rules.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:51:54 GMT
Subject: Die Weltbund

>C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)

        Bund means Federation, League, Alliance. So, Die Weltbund is The
World Federation or something like that.


------------------------------

From: granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:59:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The new Core subsector

Well, I've lurked on this list long enough.

The new core subsector in T4 is the old Chant subsector from Traveller
Digest #10.  (Might have been nine, but I think it was 10.)  The stars
are in the same positions, and Chant was just south of core in DGP's
Imperium.  So Sylea (Capitol) has moved about half a subsector south.

I think this means that Imperium games is using the same map as before,
but new system profiles.  This would make sense if they intend to keep
the Spinward Marches, and I suspect they do. (Hey Joe, any info on that?)
I am also hopeful that my Solomani Rim supplement will still be good as
it is a Classic Traveller book.  

As for Marc Miller's post, I do hope he will leave the system profiles of
the worlds he defines in the Marches and the Rim the same as before.  I
actually think the entire Marches should be kept the same, it's been with
us so long it needs to be grandfathered (pun intended) in.


- -- 
Harley Grantham					granthh@anubis.network.com

------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:06:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Misjumps and Far Empires

Concept: Misjumped ships start a pocket empire very far away from charted space.

Harald Budschedl wrote:
>Hmm, IMHO its quite improbable, that they all misjump to the same place,

Well, it does not need to be the same place. Just the same SECTOR, and over
a loooong period of time. Imagine you misjump far, far away and, in the
first planet you visit, someone tells you something in Galanglic... you will
ask eho has taught him the language, and you will keep searching until you
find the people.

>You can try to put it that way. There is a somewhat strange astrophysical 
>phenomenon (kinda space-time-distortion or so, produced by a big 
>gravitation-source), which is never located at the same place, but 
>appeares here and there, now and then. It could influence every jump, 
>which is processed in its region, in the same way, redirecting them to 
>the same time and space (I know, a little bit like a wormhole, but not 
>that local, and with a bigger region of influence)

A-ha! I didn't think of time-travelling through misjumps! Good point. But
maybe a little less is enough: there is some black hole/withe hole seven
sectors away from the edge of charted space which loosely attracts a small,
fixed percentage of all misjumped ships from an area inside charted space.
In the course of the last five millenia, thousand of starships of the Six
Races have arrived into the SAME sector. Eventually, The Alliance appeared.
Every now and then, they receive new misjumped travellers, so they know
about the general history of us. Yes, this is more convenient.

Anders Backman wrote:

>Well if you misjump in a sphere of 36 parsecs around a busy system then
>within 1000 years it is NOT improbable that several ships misjump to the
>same system but there's a high propability that the one that got there
>prior to you is already dead when you arrive. Cool idea by the way, I'll
>use it methinks.
>Wasn't the abyss in Spinward marches supposed to work a bit like that
>according to library data?

        Precisely. But suppose a Colony Ship some millenia ago (Vilani,
e.g.) was ***prepared*** to survive anywhere. When the following misjumped
ships arrived, they already had a pocket empire... and the steady arrival of
misjumped ships kept that empire somewhat parallel to charted space.
        And, well, what about the astronomical phenomenon attracting ships
from several areas (due to the strange, 11-dimension, geometry of
jumpspace). One of those is the Abyss Rift. And, in fact, the probability of
misjump in those areas is a bit greater, because of the phenomenon.
        Ooops... what will happen to The Alliance when the first
Virus-infected ship misjumps into its territory????
- ------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico
Universidad de Alicante
03071-Alicante (Spain)
                                                   
Tlf: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
     (34) 6 5903614


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: IISS Uniforms 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13: 20:52 EDT
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:18:32 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Hi.
: 
: Rich Ostorero (and Matthew Mactyre) wrote:
: 
: >From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
: >Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:33:42 -0700
: >Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms
: 
: [...]
: > >I agree Scouts are often rebels, but they are also survival-oriented rebel
s.
: > >Of course, the concept of a dress uniform would likely be laughed at by
: > >the vast majority of scouts.
: > 
: > The IISS in my gaming world are rebels, criminals, the truly dedicated and
: > other eccentrics.  However, they take quite a bit of pride in their service
: [...]
: 
: Hmm... Rebels? Criminals? Doesn't sound like the kind of people I'd
: want delivering my mail. Or making my maps. Or handling delicate liasons
: with newly (re)contacted civilizations.
: 
: I'd want really reliable, methodical people for all these jobs.

Something to keep in mind is that the scout service is definitely more
lax than any other military branch.  I don't think that they would
employ rebels and criminals, but there definitely is room for the
non-conformist.

Remember, there's those of us in the field, and those that love their
Level 5 Desk Scans...

The original rebel/criminal description definitely was a rouge.

: I'd want people who were so conformist that they didn't even need
: (or care about) a pecking order to get things done. I'd want
: people so dedicated that they'd risk extraordinary danger.
: Heck, I'd want monks and nuns, or the bureaucratic equivalent.
: And that would be... scouts.

Hey, you're the better pilot?  Okay, you're in charge, now I can get out
of doing that pesky paperwork and back to hitting dirtside.

: Uniforms? Nothing showy. Simple, ascetic, utilitarian, like a jet black
: jumpsuit.

I still like the lt. blue ones.  Maybe some khaki.  Black is too *NAVY*,
ugh.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 11:26 PDT
Subject: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements

Considering the recent discussions on the difficulties of running profitable
cargo
without speculation, I had to wonder about the smuggling end of things.

1.  Payment arrangements:  Assuming someone agrees to run an illicit cargo,
and did not just outright buy the illegal cargo and sell at a profit as a
normal speculative cargo haul, how would they arrange payment?  A free
trader captain could easily take the cargo and run, keeping his fee and
whatever cargo he  stole, and keep on heading west so to speak.  The person
wanting the run can't very well tell the authorities that his illegal goods
were stolen.

Any nifty ideas?  One I was thinking was that a typical arrangement would be
1/4 to 1/2 up front, with balance upon delivery from the folks it's being
delivered to.  

2.  Cargos:  Another thing, what would be some typical high pay, high risk
smuggling cargos in the T4 universe?  Would it be the usual - drugs, or more
exotic.  I'm looking for what other people use in their campaigns, just for
amusement and variety - I have plenty of ideas on this on my own, such as:

illicit organ trade (in the real world this is expected to exceed the
illicit drug trade in ten years or so) or are their medical technology
reasons in the T4 universe that make this obsolete.

military hardware (I figure this one would be a very lucrative, stable cargo
- - there are never enough weapons)

high technology components (stuff that takes a high TL world to create)

****

Another thought.

If a ship carried a library of technological specs and plans, and samples
from a TL12 system, and went to TL7,8,9,10, etc. worlds, couldn't they sell
this technology for mega bucks?

I mean, if in our world, a TL12 free trader showed up, what country wouldn't
pay anything they wanted in trade?  I'm sure there is something on our world
that would be valuable to a TL12 trade system, such as radioactives or raw
materials.

=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:43:08 -0300
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE: Help, please.

I'm trying to unsub, but due to the combination of a domain name change
since subbing and a singularly uncooperative mailer I am unable to convince
majordomo that I am in truth on the list.  Could some kind soul either:

1: Do unto the listserv that which must be done to get me off

or

2: Let me know how to convince majordomo that this other ID (@lrmi.com)
really ought to be removed even if it does not seem to be me.

Thanks in advance, direct email please.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

David Blustein <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG> wrote:
>> Maybe the figure should be Cr145.86 per day per human-sized sophont 
>> on board [a starship in transit]. :-)

Oops! I mean Cr142.86. :-)

>> To take this to an extreme, maybe it should be Cr1.43 per kg of live 
>> creature per day -or- Cr0.06 per kg per hour!?


Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
> Life support needs do *not* scale linearly with size, or with mass.

Okay then, how might it scale?


Guy "Wildstar" Garnett wrote:
> ... [snip] ... The "life support" cost is mainly for consumables
> (ie: food, drink, and air). ... [snip] ... All of the consumable
> items (soap, dishwashing liquid, drinking water, oxygen, nitrogen,
> and other stuff) is included in the life support fee. 

> ... [snip] ... Replacement of worn components and other long-term
> maintainence is handled during the ship's annual maintainance.


Subsistence at the highest level is usually quoted at about Cr600 per
month (retail?), which suggests that the food & drink component of the
life support cost is minimal (less than Cr20 per day?) when compared
to running the waste recyclers, et al. (air, water, & other ;-)


Personally, I have tended to simply use the Cr2000 figure per trip
rather than attempt to play "Lasers & Ledgers".


Phillip McGregor, Leonard Erikson, and Guy Garnett have got me
wondering what those credits really buy!

It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power
plant, and the wear and tear on the life support system would be
covered by the ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit
the food & water seems like it should cost less than Cr140. Also,
wouldn't the life suport system be using the ship's power plant for
its power requirements as well? Using a figure of Cr1000 per week for
the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?

Now I'm really baffled...

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:22:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG FAQ - 10/17/96

Hi folks,

This is the last time the IG FAQ will be posted here in such rapid 
succession.  From here on out, it will be posted to the TML much less 
frequently - maybe once a month or something like that (we'll see what 
works).

In the mean-time, Peter Miller is putting it on his web site:
http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/
and he will always have the latest version.

Here we go....

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imperium Games FAQ                                        October 17, 1996


PART I:  GENERAL INFORMATION

Q.  What is a FAQ?

A.  FAQ is short for "Frequently Asked Questions."  Thus, a FAQ is a list 
of frequently asked questions on a particular subject, along with answers to 
those questions.


Q.  What is the purpose of this FAQ?

A.  The Imperium Games FAQ has been created in order to provide a single 
source of answers for questions regarding Imperium Games, Inc.'s product 
schedules, Traveller rules clarifications, and general information 
relating to Imperium Games' product line.


Q.  How accurate is this FAQ?

A.  As accurate as it can be, given that humans are involved at every 
step of the process.  Sometimes there is a miscommunication or 
misunderstanding that results in inaccurate information.  Other times, 
items in this FAQ (such as release dates) get changed after the FAQ is 
presented online.
    While every effort is made to ensure that the information contained 
herein is accurate at the time of presentation, mistakes will happen from 
time to time.  Please keep that in mind, and be forgiving of the 
Travellerite who posts the information. :)


Q.  Where can I find the latest copy of this FAQ?

A.  Peter Miller (no relation to Marc) maintains an excellent 
Traveller-related web-site at (http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/) 
and the latest version of this FAQ can always be found there.


Q.  Who or what is Imperium Games?

A.  Imperium Games, Inc. (IG) is the company which publishes the Traveller 
role-playing game.  The staff of IG includes:  Ken Whitman, Lester 
Smith, Greg Porter, Don Perrin, Ashe Marler, Matt Machtan, and Timothy 
Brown.


Q.  Who is Marc Miller?

A.  Marc Miller is the man who invented the Traveller role-playing game, 
and who holds the trademark for the Traveller name, as well as the 
copyrights to products published by Game Designers' Workshop (the company 
which published Traveller from 1978 through January, 1996).  His company 
is FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).  Marc continues to be involved with the 
Traveller game, by advising IG and posting frequently to the Traveller 
Mailing List (TML), among other ways.  


Q.  Are there any web sites with information about Traveller?

A.  Information about Traveller can be obtained from the Imperium Games 
Web Site (http://www.imperiumgames.com), which also contains many links to 
other sites of interest to Traveller enthusiasts. 


Q.  How do I get more information about the TML?

A.  James Dempsey runs a superlative TML web-site 
(http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd).  Go there for information on the TML, 
including how to join the mailing list.


Q.  Who do I contact if I need an official answer to a Traveller-related 
question?

A.  If you have questions about general Traveller information, including 
release dates, rules interpretations, questions about this FAQ, errata 
notes, and so on, you may post them to either the Traveller Mailing List or 
the rec.games.frp.misc newsgroup.  This is the preferred method, as it 
allows others to see the question and subsequent answer, thus avoiding 
duplication.
    However, you may have reason to e-mail one of the IG representatives 
directly.  The official IG representatives are:  Joseph E. Walsh 
(ransom@iconnect.net), Stuart L. Dollar (sdollar@goodnet.com), and Guy 
"Wildstar" Garnett (wildstar@qrc.com).  Their responsibilities, in 
general, are as follows:
    Joe Walsh handles overall coordination, and has specific 
responsibility for questions posted on the TML and/or authored by TML 
participants.
    Stu Dollar handles all questions posted to the useNET newsgroup 
rec.games.frp.misc and/or authored by participants of that newsgroup.  
    Guy Garnett handles issues related to the various ship/craft design 
systems used in the Traveller game, star travel as presented in the 
Traveller game, and other such technical questions.
    If you are unsure who to contact, just send the question to the TML 
or rec.games.frp.misc, and you can be sure you will get an answer from 
the appropriate person.
    Please keep in mind that we reserve the right to re-post any 
questions, whether sent to the TML, useNET, or to one of the private 
email addresses.  This is generally only done if it is deemed that an 
answer to the question will benefit the whole group.  In short, though, 
no such communications should be considered private.

    Finally, if you have questions that are business-related (i.e., you 
want to get a License to publish Traveller items or a Letter of 
Permission, you want to check on your specific order, or you want to 
place an order), contact Imperium Games.  They can be contacted at:
       Imperium Games, Inc.
       P.O. Box 481
       Lake Geneva, WI 53147
       Phone: 1-414-249-9430
       Fax: 1-414-249-9456
       Web Site:  http://www.imperiumgames.com


Q.  Where do you get your Official Answers?

A.  Some answers come from our own knowledge of the Traveller game, 
while others come from the folks at Imperium Games.


PART II:  PRODUCT RELEASE INFORMATION

Q.  When will [insert product here] be shipped?

A.  The correct schedule for products to be shipped (that is, when they
will begin to be shipped to dealers and those who ordered directly through
IG) as of the date of this FAQ is:

        Starships                       November 15
        JTAS                            November 15
        Citizens of the Imperium        November 15
        Aliens Archive                  November 15
        Central Supply Catalog          December 1
        Milieu 0                        December 15
        First Survey                    December 15


Q.  When is my T4 hardback going to arrive? 

A.  It depends.
All Orders:  The hardbacks were shipped in approximately the same 
sequence in which orders were received.  As of October 18, all the 
hardbacks should be either in the mail or at their destinations.  IG 
wants to express their sincere thanks for the great patience everyone 
has shown in waiting for their orders to be filled.

U.S. Orders:  Some were shipped via Priority Mail, while others were 
shipped via 4th Class Mail, depending on the date on which the order was 
placed.  For details of when your specific order was shipped, please call 
or write to Imperium Games.

Foreign Orders:  Foreign orders will take longer to arrive than orders 
shipped to the continental U.S. 


Q.  Why is it taking so long to get my T4 hardback?

A.  IG was overwhelmed with orders for the hardback, and were caught 
somewhat unprepared.  They have only one person available to do the 
shipping (including printing labels, packaging the goods, etc.).  
    IG plans to improve their shipping process for future product 
shipments. 


PART III: SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT IG PRODUCTS

Q.  What is the scope of the upcoming Central Supply Catalog (CSC) 
supplement?

A.  The CSC will have a huge amount of equipment, as well as a very robust 
small craft design system.  CSC's focus is on equipment available in 
Milieu 0.


Q.  What about equipment for subsequent Milieux?

A.  New equipment will be published for subsequent Milieux when each 
Milieu book is published.  At this point, it is unknown whether that will 
take the form of a section of each Milieu book, a separate CSC-type 
book, or be some combination depending on the Milieu in question.


Q.  What changes will be made in subsequent printings of Marc Miller's 
Traveller (T4, the main Traveller rule book)? 

A.  The next printing of T4 will simply have errata notes in the back of the 
book.  The printing after that will be version 1.1, and will have all 
the noted errors corrected (but will have the same artwork).


Q.  I really don't like [insert a rule from T4 here] . . .

A.  If you don't like something about any IG product, feel free to change
it!  The folks at IG realize they aren't gods, and are therefore unable
to create the perfect system for everyone.  Their philosophy is that they
are producing _guidelines_, not laws carved in stone.  And, if you do 
create new rules, please share them online (see below for copyright 
information related to this subject)!


Q.  My local game store doesn't carry Traveller products.  (Or, "There
aren't any Traveller players in my area.")

A.  Ask the owner of your friendly local game store if you can run a 
demo of the Traveller game.  If s/he will let you do so, some ideas 
for what to do include:
        1)  Run through some _extremely simple_ scenarios with 
            prospective customers.  These might be simply hitting
            a target - give them a character, a situation, a little
            build up, and a number to roll.  Act out the consequences.
        2)  Get a few members of your gaming group together, and play
            at the store, if they'll allow it and have an area where
            customers can stop by and watch you play.
        3)  Your own ideas

        The point is, demand drives supply.  If you would like to see a 
supply of Traveller products at your local game store, help to create the 
demand and let the game store owner know that demand exists.  If you can 
stir up enough demand among the gaming community in your area, the game 
store owner will almost certainly begin carrying lots of Traveller products.
        Plus, you you may end up making some new gaming friends! :)


PART IV:  COPYRIGHT POLICY INFORMATION

Q.  What is IG's copyright policy in regards to original works posted to 
the Traveller Mailing List, WWW sites, and/or Usenet?

A.  Just include "Traveller is a Registered Trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises" in the document, and IG will be fine with it, so long as 
you don't sell you work (or make money off of it in any way) - see 
below.
    Imperium Games and FarFuture Enterprises _encourage_ fans to create 
their own rules variants, equipment, settings, etc.  They further encourage 
those who create such new aspects of the Traveller universe to freely share 
their work.  The game can only be improved by such fan interaction.


Q.  If I make an original work for Traveller, who owns it?

A.  You do (you may want to include a copyright notice in your document, 
thus explicitly stating you ownership of your own work).  But, you 
cannot make money from your work without doing one of the following:

    1)  Getting a Letter of Permission (call or write to IG for details)
    2)  Becoming a Licensee (call or write to IG for details)
    3)  Having a Licensee publish your work (call or write IG for details)


Q.  Is there any way around this?

A.  Yes.  Don't mention Traveller in your article, and don't pull 
material from any Traveller product.  Say it is an article for use with 
science fiction RPG's, and keep it generic.


Q.  Can IG or FFE publish my original Traveller work without my permission?

A.  No.  They cannot take your original work and publish it without first 
getting your permission.


Q.  What is the policy regarding copying previously published works by 
Game Designers' Workshop to the internet (or elsewhere)?

A.  You have to get written permission from Marc Miller 
(FarFuture@aol.com) in order to legally do so.  He holds all the 
copyrights on all such material.
_________________________________________________________________________
This completes the Imperium Games FAQ . . . for now!




------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:13:55 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Bwaps (because YOU asked for it!), CD-ROM

Dear Folks -

I have now put a picture of Newts (Bwaps) into my Library Data entry for
them. I have also scanned and loaded four pages from JTAS 11 - specifically,
the Bwaps article.

The direct address is:
        http:/pcug.org.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/B/bwaps.htm

but *I* think it's easier to negotiate from my home page thru the Library
Data page (more fun too). ;-)

I have put the article up for comments. You see, a number of people had
ideas for a CD-ROM when Marc first solicited suggestions. I think many would
love to see all the old JTAS/Challenge mags scanned onto the CD, along with
Library Data available to be viewed via a browser. I even think you should
be able to include a link page, pointing to a user's page on their hard
disk. They can add their own campaign data here!

As well as this, many people asked for various things to be on the CD:
software, pictures, etc.

Please post me your comments on what you would like on a Traveller CD-ROM
(and to the list if you like).
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #572
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 18 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 573

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: IISS Uniforms
         2. Re: [T96#562] Canadian Hardcovers
         3. Re: [T96#562] Jewish Sabbath in Space
         4. Re: [T96#558] Background Music
         5. Re: Traveller Costuming
         6. Re: Traveller Costuming
         7. IG and the Essener Spieletage
         8. Re: T4 Fuel efficiency
         9. Re: IG and the Essener Spieletage
        10. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage
        11. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
        12. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage
        13. IG FAQ corrections
        14. Re: Traveller Costuming
        15. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage
        16. Mass Combat Rules
        17. Re: Re: IG FAQ Observations/Questions...
        18. Missile sizes
        19. Okay, the FAQ is *really* online...
        20. ANNOUNCE: New Sector Viewer
        21. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:32:22 -0700
Subject: Re: IISS Uniforms

At 01:20 PM 10/17/96 -0400, you wrote:

>> The IISS in my gaming world are rebels, criminals, the truly dedicated and
>> other eccentrics.  However, they take quite a bit of pride in their service
>[...]
>
>Hmm... Rebels? Criminals? Doesn't sound like the kind of people I'd
>want delivering my mail. Or making my maps. Or handling delicate liasons
>with newly (re)contacted civilizations.

Hmm... The IISS accepts many people with a variety of backgrounds.  Their
background is not as important as their performance.  If they can't make it
and wash out, it is because they don't have the qualities needed to be a
successful Scout.  Though a kid was a rogue/criminal, he will have to live
up to the high standards of the Scout Service or be discharged.  You will
notice I said "the truly dedicated" in my post above; I was hoping it would
be clear that these are men of action, integrity and intent. 

>I'd want really reliable, methodical people for all these jobs.
>
>I'd want people who were so conformist that they didn't even need
>(or care about) a pecking order to get things done. I'd want
>people so dedicated that they'd risk extraordinary danger.
>Heck, I'd want monks and nuns, or the bureaucratic equivalent.
>And that would be... scouts.

Marc Miller's Traveller book described these Scouts as having an
"Us-Against-the World" attitude.  They'd have to be highly motivated
individualistic people in order to brave deep space, often alone with the
barest of tools, and with no or little direct support -- not brown-nosing,
paper shuffling, bureaucratic conformist.  These are the brave men that make
history, and don't wait around for history to happen to them. IMHO, of
course.  <grin>


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 18:09:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#562] Canadian Hardcovers

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) hath scriven...

T::>Has anyone in Canada received a hardcover yet?

T::>You'd think as the US's largest trading partner, they'd have figured out how
 ::>to ship stuff north of the border by now.

 Well, I got mine (in NY) via USPS Priority.  If they're using
 the regular mails (as opposed to something like FedUPS), it's
 entirely possible, based on comments from Canadians I know from
 other lists, that Postes Canada is sitting on them.  Or losing
 them.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ It does often seem that man must fight to live.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 18:09:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#562] Jewish Sabbath in Space

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) hath scriven...

T::>I haven't finished my exploration of hypothetical future Christianity yet, but
 ::>I do have an answer to whoever asked about Sabbath on worlds about different
 ::>stars.

T::>Right now, two times may be used when you are in a place (like the arctic
 ::>circle) with no clear night/day: use the sunrise/sunset of the nearest city
 ::>that has one, or use Jerusalem time.  My rabbinical contact says that these
 ::>rules should also apply on other planets.

 But that still leaves a problem for Jews and Moslems, to wit:
 How does one ensure that one faces/bows toward Jerusalem/Mecca
 when engaged in prayer?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Windows: From the people who brought you EDLIN!


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 18:09:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#558] Background Music

Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com> posted in reply to the
following...

T::>>At 7:59 PM -0400 10/14/96, Steinar Knutsen wrote:
 ::>>>I found myself a bit low on ideas when it came to background music
 ::>>>for playing Traveller this week. What do those of you who like some
 ::>>>background music use out there? (I used the sound track for =ABBlade
 ::>>>Runner=BB for the previous session, btw. OK, obvious one, but it was great
 ::>>>for building up under the moody and disturbing atmosphere I was aiming
 ::>>>for.)

 My thoughts:

 First, be aware that I usually don't bother with background
 music - about the only time I do is when I'm running a "High
 Camp" game.

 I always enjoy Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor"; it's a
 virtually automatic choice for when they have to deal with the
 Mad Scientist Who's Out To Destroy Known Space - and it works
 pretty well for other Major Villains, too.  Especially the ones
 that I want to suggest have perceptions of reality that are
 less than totally accurate.

 For scenes where the Cavalry Rides to the Rescue, I'd go with
 Wagner - "The Ride of the Valkyries", from the Ring cycle.

 For a haunted-house-apropos scene, an instrumental of The
 Beatles' "Being for the Benefit of Mr Kite" seems to fit.
 Provided that the melody line is carried by a pipe organ, or a
 calliope.

 For troops on maneuvers: The Beatles, again - "March of the
 Meanies" from the "Yellow Submarine" album/CD.

 The Starship Trying to Avoid Being Late for the Next Random
 Encounter gets the theme from "Star Trek: The Next Generation".

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ To deny the facts would be illogical, Doctor.


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:25:04 +1000
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> For an alternate idea, get a book of German uniforms during WWII.. they may
> have been evil, but boy could they dress!  The SS in particular had smart
> looking uniforms, and you might get alternate ideas about decorations.
> 
This relates to Adams gaming law #2:
The good guys always win, but the bad guys have the better uniforms

> 
> +----------------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
> |     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
> |   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
> |**********************************************|
> | "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
> |                                -Alice Cooper |
> +----------------------------------------------+
> 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 

"That's verry important to you, all that theatrical stuff."

"It's everything Evey. The perfect entrance, the grand illusion. Its 
everything...and Im going to bring the house down. They have forgotten 
the drama of it all...you see, they abbandoned the scripts when the world 
withered in the glare of the nuclear footlights. Im going to remind them 
about melodrama. About  the tuppenny rush and the penny dreadfull...You 
see, Evey, al the world is a stage, and everything else....
is vaudeville."

Evey and V, V for Vendetta by Allen Moore and David Lloyd.


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:20:05 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

Darryl Adams wrote:
> This relates to Adams gaming law #2:
> The good guys always win, but the bad guys have the better uniforms

This matches with one of Murphy's Laws for Combat:
All else being equal, the side with the simpler uniform will win

Before you start adding all sorts of flashes and epaulettes, compare the dress uniform of 
a Tin Pot Generallissimo and of a typical commando
The Generallissimo has a much more impressive uniform, the commando has to make do 
with skill and efficiency. Hardly a goal for a modern army, now is it?

------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:58:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: IG and the Essener Spieletage

Hi!

As some of you already might now... right now (from thursday to sunday)
the Essener Spieletage (the largest gaming convention of the world) take
place over here in Germany.  I was there this thursday and (since the IG
crew is said to be visiting Germany) hoped to meet them somewhere at the
convention.

Sadly either I was blind or they were not (yet?) there.  I'll be visiting
again on saturday and still hope to meet them in person by then.  As far
as the new Traveller edition is concerned things do not bode well for it
over here in Germany.  The largest two german distributors do not seem to
be interested in picking it up and it generally was not (well) represented
on thursday.  I managed to find a total of three places where I could buy
the new softcover rulebooks -- and all three places were impossible to
find by casual looking (you really had to dig in some boxes).  Bad start
for T4.  Imperium Games really should show some presence -- otherwise I
fear they'll loose one market.

Just to let you know...

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:49:44 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 Fuel efficiency

At 12:28 pm 10/16/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Yesterday I finally broke out my copy of T4, and started learning how to
>use the QSDS.  It seems to be a nice easy to use system, a bit limited, so
>I can't wait for the system which allows you to use other than standardized
>modules.
>
>The fuel effiecency for the jump drive seems to be the same, no problem
>there.  What has me wondering is the effeciency of the Thruster plates.  If
>I understand everything correctly they don't use fuel, they use power.  Now
>say I've got a ship that produces 1000Mw, it will use the same amount of
>fuel in a year, wether or not I us the thruster plates.  Is this correct?

        For simplicity, the rules assume you run the power plant at full
capacity whether you're using all the power or not. If you want to calculate
and track actual usage,you're welcome to.

>I'm asking because Classic and Mega both use a certain amout of fuel per
>time period for there manuever drives.

        No, they don't. They use a certain amount of power for their drives,
and the power plant uses a certain amount of fuel per time period. Exactly
the same as thruster plates.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:30:42 +0000
Subject: Re: IG and the Essener Spieletage

Thomas Biskup wrote:

> As some of you already might now... right now (from thursday to sunday)
> the Essener Spieletage (the largest gaming convention of the world) take
> place over here in Germany. 

Larger than Gencon?
That is something like 25000 people, and you have more?!?

That does it, I'm goin' to Germany

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:00:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> If you've misjumped into the middle of nowhere, and have to figure out how
> to make six months worth of fuel last a few decades, then it might be
> important.

If the above happened to a ship with thruster plates (the technology of
which is gravity-based), how could it manuever worth a darn outside a
star's gravitational influence? I was under the impression that T4
thruster plates were similar to the old MT grav plates rather than the
MT thruster plates which didn't require a star's/planet's grav field to
perform efficiently.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:05:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> BTW Thanks for the reply.

My pleasure. The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches were the stomping grounds
of my favorite character of all time and I've got some fond memories of
these sectors.

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:38:24 -0600
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage

At 08:00 pm 10/17/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Derek Wildstar wrote:
>> If you've misjumped into the middle of nowhere, and have to figure out how
>> to make six months worth of fuel last a few decades, then it might be
>> important.
>
>If the above happened to a ship with thruster plates (the technology of
>which is gravity-based), how could it manuever worth a darn outside a
>star's gravitational influence? I was under the impression that T4
>thruster plates were similar to the old MT grav plates rather than the
>MT thruster plates which didn't require a star's/planet's grav field to
>perform efficiently.

        Actually, they're somewhere between ... Antigravity as used in
vehicles goes down more or less with local gravity. TPlates have a step
function -- down to a certain point they work unaffected, and past that
point they work at a fraction of their original ability.

        But the answer is yes -- a TPlate equipped ship would take forever
getting back home.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:18:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG FAQ corrections

Oops.  David Blustein pointed out that I messed up on the GDW/Trav 
dates... Trav was first published in 77, not 78 (got my Atari 8-bit and Trav 
dates confused[G]), and GDW closed its doors at the end of February, not 
January.

If you're keeping a copy of the FAQ, and/or distributing it, you might 
want to make these corrections.

Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:24:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

> Believe it or not, *some* branch of the US military has a unit patch
> that is a black "sunburst" on an olive drab background. But it's only a
> half circle.

That sounds like the subdued (black and olive drab version) unit patch 
for the California National Guard.  I might have the state wrong, but 
it's definitely a NG patch.
 
> BTW, you should be able to find a store (or section in a store) that
> *sells* such things as common insignia and uniform parts. I'd advise
> checking with someone who knows the color codes for the ribbons of
> various services so as to avoid using the code for well known awards.
> For example, being that the con is in Germany, you do *not* want
> anything that matches a Nazi ribbon!

You also want to avoid significant ribbons from any other military.  As 
other TML'ers have mentioned, getting caught with a Silver Star might buy 
you some trouble.  If you've got access to a precedence chart, you'll 
want to refer to it in order to select the least significant ribbons.
 
> If IG details the insignia a bit more, they could try licensing some of
> the outfits that produce patches and insignia for sale at SF cons and
> the like.

You can never market Too Much Stuff, it seems...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:33:24 +0000
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage

David J. Golden wrote:
>         Actually, they're somewhere between ... Antigravity as used in
> vehicles goes down more or less with local gravity. TPlates have a step
> function -- down to a certain point they work unaffected, and past that
> point they work at a fraction of their original ability.
>         But the answer is yes -- a TPlate equipped ship would take forever
> getting back home.

I have always used the following: up to TL C grav plates operated at 0.5 power beyond 
10 diameters, and 0.1 beyond 100. At TL D, the efficiency goes up to full out to 100 and 
0.5 beyond. The next major leap is TL G, where it becomes 1.0 thrust always

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Mass Combat Rules

Thus spake Bill Hutchinson <hbill@primenet.com>:

> I'am looking for new rules somthing other then striker 2.
> For Mass man to man combat.
> So has anyone came across anything???

You might try the mass-combat rules in the "World Tamer's Handbook" 
published for TNE.  Of course, they're designed for operating on a scale 
larger than Striker II does, and this might be too large a scale for what 
you're looking for.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:43:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: IG FAQ Observations/Questions...

>> Are me
>  Are Joe Walsh...

>On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Chuck Maddox wrote:
>
>> Quick observation...  FAQ's should not have non-standard abbreviations
>[snip]
>> FarFuture Enterprises (FFE).  Sorry if I'm being nitpicky...  Just try'en
>> to improve the product, boss!
>Yup.  You're right.  I'm in the process of editing the FAQ right now. :)
[snip]

Actually all your responses are right along the lines I was thinking.  I
could respond to each but for bandwidth's sake I'll refrain (hoo-rah!).  I
imagine that the copyright section will be updated frequently at first but
settle down once all of the contingincies have been accounted for.

My web related questions were related to the fact that I'll probably be
putting together my web pages (finally devoting the time) in the next
couple of weeks and wanted to make sure of my footing.  Anything that I
publish to begin with will probably be pointers to other sites.

I would point out that anyone who publishes material for free on the web
who think that they might wish to pursue sale of the material at a later
date put in a disclaimer stating that the material may be removed without
notice at any time (blah blah blah...).

>> Joe,  I also want to take this opportunity to personally thank you for the
>
>Thanks.  It's nice to get kind words once in a while. :)

No problem.  Thanks again for stepping up to the plate.

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/



------------------------------

From: Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:53:57 -0700
Subject: Missile sizes

I'm sure this has been discused already, but I was trying to do a T4 
design and ran into a small problem with missiles. How much volume do 
reloads take up. Not much point to a turret that shoots two missiles and 
then is so much dead weight. Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets? 
What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?
Thanks in advance,
Dave

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:37:33 -0800
Subject: Okay, the FAQ is *really* online...

Hello again,

Alright, sorry about my previous message which stated the FAQ was online, I
forgot to change a file name, and therefore it wasn't linked.

Now, though, the fully-linked, fully-HTML Imperium Games FAQ is online,
plus, the IG News, the CSC Preview, Milieu 0 Outline, and much, much more
already online at my Traveller Pages.

Check it out, http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

One little note.  You'll experience lag time...I mean severe lag time.  My
server will be fixing this Friday\Saturday and therefore, the web pages will
be offline Friday and\or Saturday.  However, with luck, it'll have a
relatively speedy connection after these dates...please bear with me.

Thanks!  And...comments are welcome and wanted!

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:01:49 +0000 ()
Subject: ANNOUNCE: New Sector Viewer

Hy Folks,

	first of all:

		Its nothing new for the papst of canon travellers ;-)

	I've just combined some work :

	- Ethan Henrys Java Sector Viewer
	- DGP Second survey
	- Gal21 *for the names and comments*

	You can now browse though the GAL21 data ony any university
	workstation. And I think this nice litle beast solves the
	Unix/Mac/Dogs war. I'll next look some litle deeper in the
	code to improve download and performance (35KB/Sector is
	to much for the internet - my Sun3/50 is slow enough ;-)

	I also think about installing yet an other mailserver on
	deceased.hb.north.de, so it would be easy for anybody to
	mail comments about world profiles to deceased and they'll
	become included online.

	If you wanna test it, start with Spinward, wait a while till
	a new toplevel window opens, then switch to e.g. Ruby B-1005
	and next Emerald 1006.

	If you like it there is of course a download/all button, but
	be warned its about 600KB tar.gz.

By Michael
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530

     If I remember correctly from the seminar at GenCon, Marc said that the
First Survey book would include such info as whether the system contains a
planet or an asteroid belt, whether or not the system has a gas giant, and
whether or not the planet has a significant hydrosphere, because these are the
kinds of details that 1) you can verify at Interstellar distances and 2) they
aren't likely to change.
     I don't know if this is still the plan or not, but it's what I remember
hearing.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #573
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 18 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 574

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: CD-ROM
         2. Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements
         3. Web page update
         4. Re: CD-ROM
         5. Re: Unexplored Core...
         6. Re: ... and thanks for all the fish
         7. Re: IG and the Essener Spieletage
         8. Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements
         9. ORKCON: Where???
        10. Traveller Script Font
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #573
        12. Re: Starship economics & Misjumps
        13. Re: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space
        14. Re: Mass Combat Rules
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #573
        16. Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!
        17. Re: Jump drive copy-cats
        18. Re: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space
        19. Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space
        20. Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!
        21. Re: Starship economics & Misjumps
        22. My New Job!: Plasma Fusion Center

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:05:09 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: CD-ROM

Moin David Jaques-Watson,

> Please post me your comments on what you would like on a Traveller CD-ROM

	<html> files and Java applets. As a book importer we have enough
	trouble with thouse f*cking DOS/only CDs.

By Michael
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:49:30 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements

Moin Joel Lovell,

> 1.  Payment arrangements:  Assuming someone agrees to run an illicit cargo,
> and did not just outright buy the illegal cargo and sell at a profit as a
> normal speculative cargo haul, how would they arrange payment?  A free
> trader captain could easily take the cargo and run, keeping his fee and
> whatever cargo he  stole, and keep on heading west so to speak.  The person
> wanting the run can't very well tell the authorities that his illegal goods
> were stolen.

	Normaly a trader has to be in a guild (some people say Mafia,
	what a nasti word) to smuggle freight. And he 'll be shure
	that they'll get him. Hey its easier to escape your bank.

> 2.  Cargos:  Another thing, what would be some typical high pay, high risk
> smuggling cargos in the T4 universe?  Would it be the usual - drugs, or more
> exotic.  I'm looking for what other people use in their campaigns, just for
> amusement and variety - I have plenty of ideas on this on my own, such as:

	Everyhing legal at A and illegal at B makes a high price
	sell RAM-Grenades at a Law:9 planet, and you either get
	rich or in prison. Sell the right drugs, sell those nice
	litle birds (they are called chirpers, and are as intelligent
	as my dog ;-) Even selling books can be criminal.

	If you wanna become a smuggler look at the difference in laws.

	My favourity route is : Money from German, Whisky From Ireland
	to Sweden, Mariuana from Netherlands to Germany, and back to
	Ireland. 6 weeks and sailboat makes enough money to live a
	year.

By Michael
- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:04:15 -0700
Subject: Web page update

After a few weeks of neglect, we've gotten back to work on my Traveller
pages..  The Silly Era now has all the "You might be a Traveller player..."
stuff, along with some other new things.

I hope to get my *extremely* rough conversions of 3G3 weapons to T4 up
sometime this weekend.  I'm getting ready to move, and it makes finding the
time to work on the designs rare (not to mention my notes keep getting packed!)

Some teasers:

A pistol with a damage rating of 2 and 500 shots...

A 20mm weapon with a shaped charge warhead that only detonates against soft
targets, like flesh...

A tech 0 musket, firing wooden balls...

All at:  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.htm


+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:52:10 -0800
Subject: Re: CD-ROM

>Moin David Jaques-Watson,
>
>> Please post me your comments on what you would like on a Traveller CD-ROM
>
>	<html> files and Java applets. As a book importer we have enough
>	trouble with thouse f*cking DOS/only CDs.
>
>By Michael

I totally agree!  This would make it usable by all Traveller fans with a
computer and CD-ROM.  Not to mention potentially better (i.e. faster) than
some routes that could be taken!

			Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing       |
| Modern Micro-Armor, and Warhammer (all settings) Wargaming   |



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:27:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Unexplored Core...

FKiesche@concentric.net wrote:
> So here's a suggestion. Let's work up some guidelines and make a proposal
> to IG. Marc has stated that generating 20k (or whatever the number is)
> systems would be undoable by IG. How about we help out? During the heyday
> (not so long ago) of the thickest TNE discussions we were getting many
> excellent system postings on this list. Why can't we do the same for the
> T4 universe?

Good suggestion.  Let's make you the team leader on this.

I own information published by DGP and GDW for these sectors:  Spinward Marches, Trojan 
Reach, Riftspan Reaches, Deneb, Reft Sector, Ealiyasiyw, Dark Nebula, Corridor, Vland, 
Solomani Rim, Diaspora, and Massilia.

Now these are just maps and UWPs, mind you, but that is what I want from IG in the form 
of 'official' sector information anyway.  If IG wants to detail some worlds in these 
sectors, then that is fantastic.  My complaint has always been that IG will leave some 
of these systems blank.  I don't want to see that.  I want all of these maps that I own 
to convert easily to future supplements published by IG.  What I don't want is systems 
left blank.  

 
> Of course it would help it we could keep the Atlas of the Imperium system
> guidance...plus Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim, etc. 

I own all of these too.  

I'm all for this project, Fred.  Take the bull by the horns and start running with it.

Hail, Team Leader,

Kenneth.



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:36:10 -0700
Subject: Re: ... and thanks for all the fish

Liam McCauley wrote:
> 
>      Well folks, looks like I have to leave the list again for an unknown
>      length of time :-(.  I have a new job which starts in 2 weeks time and
>      my last day with my current employer is Fri 18th.  I'm hoping I'll be
>      able to re-join with my new e-mail account, depending on my new
>      employer's attitude to such non-business use.  

Bye Liam.  I have enjoyed the talks.  Good luck in your new position, and I hope to see 
you soon right here on TML.

Kenneth.



------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:38:45 -0700
Subject: Re: IG and the Essener Spieletage

Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> That does it, I'm goin' to Germany

If Germany is like Austria, IG-wise, then stay where you are. This is the 
Red-zone!! You have to go through many adventures, if you want to buy 
Traveller-stuff here.
I for my part will now start to order them directly.

Cya.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:06:10 +0100
Subject: Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements

Joel Lovell writes:
> 2.  Cargos:  Another thing, what would be some typical high pay, high risk
> smuggling cargos in the T4 universe?  Would it be the usual - drugs, or more
> exotic.  I'm looking for what other people use in their campaigns, just for
> amusement and variety - I have plenty of ideas on this on my own, such as:

Anything illegal on the destination world.  For example I heard a
radio report last night that stated CFC (the ozone depleting gas) is
being smuggled through Florida in larger ammounts than cocaine...
Imagine the players surprise when their valuable illegal cargo turns
out to be some common "harmless" item on another world.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:31:02 -0700
Subject: ORKCON: Where???

Subject: ORKCON: Where???
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:58:39 -0700
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Organization: Magistrat Linz
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@.MPGN.COM>

I heard 'bout the Orkcon Gaming Convention in Germany. It should take
place from Nov.1st to 3rd.
Does anybody know, if this is right?
Does anybody know, where in Germany it is (which city - adress ...).
Does anybody know, if one can find Traveller material there?

I know, i know. So many questions ...

Cya.
Buddy
- --
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich


------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 18 Oct 96 11:50:46 EDT
Subject: Traveller Script Font

Yo Folkes,
     I heard a rumour that someone had deciphered the script used in
many of the Traveller illustrations and that they had a computer font
for it.
     Does anyone know anything about this?
       Cheers,
           Jo

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Oct 1996 08:56:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #573

>it's entirely possible, based on comments from Canadians I know from
> other lists, that Postes Canada is sitting on them.  Or losing
> them.

Possible.  I just wish I knew why mail from overseas (Norway, England,
Australia, South Africa, France, Japan, Hong Kong) arrives more promptly and
in better condition than mail from the US.  I've been assuming that the
problem was with the US postal system because Canada Post manages OK with
mail from other countries.

------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:16:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Starship economics & Misjumps

Douglas McCorison wrote:

>Question 1:

>Does anyone else have problems with the stated rule that on
>every jump you roll 2- for a mis-jump?

        Yes. I use a slight modification:
        On every jump, roll 3- on 3D6 for a misjump (1 over 216). Use
standard DMs for unrefined fuel, distance to a planet, etc.
        On a misjump, roll 3D6 on the mishap table. Superficial Dmg: Failed
jump. Waste of some fuel, minor repairs needed, so on. No jump made. Minor:
"Close" misjump (up to J-6). Major: "Far" misjump (up to J-36 or more...).
Destroyed: BOUM.
        On a close or far Misjump, assume that the geometry of jumpspace is
naturally altered by gravitational forces... roll for the place you are
going, and, if it is empty, roll 1D6. On 1-2, OK and good luck. On 4-6, pick
the nearest star system (roll if necessary).

>Question 2:
>When a trader ship mis-jumps (not if, see above), how do
>you handle things like freight (due some port off there),
>High and Low passengers?
>Pretty much anything I've come up with that's reasonable as
>far as the passengers/shippers is going to break the 
>account of a Free Trader.

        Well, insurance, of course! You could even assume that the loan
payments include a small part for an obligatory "Misjump insurance". In case
of BOUM, the insurance will be paid to the bank...
- ------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
- ------------------


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Oct 1996 09:14:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space

>But that still leaves a problem for Jews and Moslems, to wit:
> How does one ensure that one faces/bows toward Jerusalem/Mecca
> when engaged in prayer?

One adapts, of course.  Jews do not _have_ to face Jerusalem - in fact, at
most of the synagogues here they face east, while Jerusalem is
east-south-east.  Some simple solutions:

1) Ignore the tradition, and face the main religious site on the planet.

2) Face the starport, as being the fastest way to get to Jerusalm/Mecca.

3) Use technology to figure out which way to face at any given time (check
out "The Gripping Hand" by Niven/Pournelle for an example).

4) Assume that the direction is along some galactic line (just as directions
on Earth are along the surface, ignoring shortcuts through the interior) and
face that way.


Keep in mind that (a) traditions change, and (b) loopholes and differing
interpretations can be found for any tradition.  Two examples:

1) Sabbath ovens don't have a light, because openning the oven door would
cause the temperature to drop, which turns on the element, and if the light
came on you would have 'lit a fire' which breaks the Sabbath.  Note that the
little peanut bulb is considered a fire, while the considerably more powerful
heating element isn't.  I find this really strange, but one of my Jewish
friends (who follows these traditions) says you have to expect this kind of
inconsistency when non-technological rabbis decide about technology. He then
points to assorted strange secular laws and funding decisions as proof that
the secular world is just as non-rational.

2) Muslim scholars have used the Koran to argue for and against votes/rights
for women.  Depends on which section you use, and how you interpret a
passage.  Assuming that the Koran is like the Christian bible, you can
'prove' _anything_ if you read passages out of context.

All of which is a bit off-topic, but you hit one of my interests.


To bring things back to Traveller, I think I'm going to add a "Holy
Gyrocompass" to my equipment list.  This will be a simple device that
indicates the exact direction of a particular star at any time, so that
religious worshippers who need to know can do so quickly and easily.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:31:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Mass Combat Rules

Thus spake Bill Hutchinson <hbill@primenet.com>:
> > I'am looking for new rules somthing other then striker 2.
> > For Mass man to man combat.
> > So has anyone came across anything???

Believe it or not, the GURPS Mass Combat system is not bad (yes, GURPS!)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:41:32 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #573

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> >it's entirely possible, based on comments from Canadians I know from
> > other lists, that Postes Canada is sitting on them.  Or losing
> > them.
> 
> Possible.  I just wish I knew why mail from overseas (Norway, England,
> Australia, South Africa, France, Japan, Hong Kong) arrives more promptly and
> in better condition than mail from the US.  I've been assuming that the
> problem was with the US postal system because Canada Post manages OK with
> mail from other countries.

Yeah, and at least our posties don't go psycho and M-16 their fellows when they get 
fired either

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:36:22 -0700
Subject: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE

Forgive Me.  I'm OMKB (On My Knees Begging).  What have I done to offend the
list so.  For the past six to seven messages I've sent to the list I've
recieved no reply not even a simple mention of my words in another thread.
While I see that my messages do reach the Digest I wonder if I've somehow
offended the list and been Blackballed.  Now I must reduce my Soc by 2 and
state such loss of my membership on my UPP record. 

Anyone wish to acknowledge the existance of a lowly carbon based life-form.
Huh Huh

 ||||   
 O  O
  (   Brad Urwiller
  __  ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:51:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jump drive copy-cats

> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:02:57 -0500 (EST)

I'm a little behind... help!

> >That's one angle I never thought of. I have also always wondered whether
> >the Vilani (their world overrun with Ancients  warmachines) actually
> >discovered jump drive or not. Did they discover an already built  one
> >and copy it (a la Geonee). Same goes for the Zhodani. There were Droyne
> >and  chirpers on their world. Maybe they were taught. Geez, that leaves
> >only Solomani as a  major human race
> 
> And the Solomani didn't discover j-drive until after they had thoroughly
> explored their own solar system. And according to DGP, there were
> ancient sites in the outer system and/or asteroid belt...

*bzzz* All true enough, but unfortunately the Vilani jump-copying
angle, regardless of whether it's true or not, doesn't disqualify
them. The Vilani had a SUBLIGHT empire of several systems before
the discovered jump drive.

Although it does make a good case for the Solomani having copied
it if we only made it to the belt when we found it... or maybe
we're just smarter!

Ethan

------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:54:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space

At 09:14 AM 10/18/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>But that still leaves a problem for Jews and Moslems, to wit:
>> How does one ensure that one faces/bows toward Jerusalem/Mecca
>> when engaged in prayer?

It is very simple.  For Moslems, they simply orient a stone or indicator at
their landing site towards terra, and then declare that direction "Toward
Mecca". If you got to a new planet, you CERTAINLY have enough technology to
determine the direction of Terra when you land.  It would also give the
Mullah or Sultan who controlled the spaceport a definate social power.

The same sort of thing can be done for Jerusalem, New York, or Graceland
(for the First Church of Elvis the Divine, Third Reformation)

>Muslim scholars have used the Koran to argue for and against votes/rights
>for women.  Depends on which section you use, and how you interpret a
>passage.  Assuming that the Koran is like the Christian bible, you can
>'prove' _anything_ if you read passages out of context.
>

The Koran is NOT like the bible, in that ALL Korans, written in Arabic, are
identical.  Many interpretations can be drawn, but the original text is
always the same.  Technically, translating the Koran into other languages is
forbidden.

Even more disruptive is the practice of praying 5 times a day as a
requirement on all Muslims.  During drive recalibration?  Combat (and in
Arabia, battles HAVE stopped for prayer)?


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:12:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space

Rob Prior wrote:
> 1) Ignore the tradition, and face the main religious site on the planet.

In one 2300 module, they mentioned that one planet with a large muslim population got 
permission to remove a tiny chip of the Black Rock and place it in one shrine. And this 
would be treated as Mecca for that world

> Keep in mind that (a) traditions change, and (b) loopholes and differing
> interpretations can be found for any tradition.  Two examples:
> 2) Muslim scholars have used the Koran to argue for and against votes/rights
> for women.  Depends on which section you use, and how you interpret a
> passage.  Assuming that the Koran is like the Christian bible, you can
> 'prove' _anything_ if you read passages out of context.

Or, quite frequently, in context as well

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:26:03 +0000
Subject: Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!

What did you post?

------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:16:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship economics & Misjumps

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>         Yes. I use a slight modification:
> [... snip neat idea of using 3 dice for mis-jump ...]

Thanks... this was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.
#*!THWOCK!*# Why didn't I think of that.  :)

>         On a close or far Misjump, assume that the geometry of jumpspace is
> naturally altered by gravitational forces... roll for the place you are
> going, and, if it is empty, roll 1D6. On 1-2, OK and good luck. On 4-6, pick
> the nearest star system (roll if necessary).

Hmmm, If you make that assumtion, then why not say a mis-jump 
always lands you in a gravity well... of course it could be 
something evil like around a black hole....  :)

>         Well, insurance, of course! You could even assume that the loan
> payments include a small part for an obligatory "Misjump insurance". In case
> of BOUM, the insurance will be paid to the bank...

Well, DOUBLE #*!THWOCK!*#.  Of course... Boy am I going to have fun
with my players trying to collect on their insurance...  evil :>

Actually, this brings up question #3)
When I figured out the starship payments and time frame I ended up 
with an interest rate of about 4% and that's assuming that the
payments are just PI (Principal & Interest) not PITI (Principle,
Interest, Taxes, & Insurance).  Does anyone else think this is 
low for the risk level on a Free Trader?  And if those payments
are PITI, then the interest rate is probably down at 3%....
That doesn't sound like a cold hearted banker to me.

Any comments?

Thanks bunches,
Douglas

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:46:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: My New Job!: Plasma Fusion Center

I'm very excited to share with you'all that I will be starting a new job
Monday with The Plasma Fusion Center at MIT Monday.

Don't get too excited, I'm a grant manager, not a researcher.  It does,
however, present the opportunity to verify or explore some of the likely
technical aspects of 1). Hot Fusion, and 2). Magnetic Sciences at TL 8 or
9.

Feel free to email me (at this address) with such technical requests, I
bet the Researchers I'll be working for will just love it :)

Pete  


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #574
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Traveller-digest          Friday, 18 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 575

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Airlocks and Plasma Guns
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567
         7. Re: The new Core subsector
         8. auction results
         9. Blank Worlds Vote
        10. What DID I post
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #573 
        12. Re: [T96#565] Religions in T4 (was: Nicean Creed)
        13. Re: Blank Worlds
        14. Re: What DID I post
        15. RE: What DID I post 
        16. IG News - 10/18/96
        17. Re: What DID I post
        18. Re: Traveller Script Font

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:24:28 +0000
Subject: Airlocks and Plasma Guns

or if your on a budget, use a RAM grenade with a HEAP round
according to Striker, it gets almost the same penetration, and if its 
an Autoram you can hit more targets

and at the maximum range for the high energy weapons they barely 
penetrate cloth
but that 4cm RAM grenade can punch through an unarmored starship hull
at that range.

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 18:23 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

In-Reply-To: <9610162347.AA03383@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:43:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Uncharted space

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>         I suppose it could be a great idea (I applauded the same story 
when
> it was told about Foreven in Imperiallines 1), but, personally, if I
> purchase something which charts a Sector, I would prefer to found 
stats for
> the whole Sector. >>

Exactly. We want a finished product, not something with 'this area 
intentionally left blank. The rest of the work is left as an exercise 
for the reader' written on it.

<< On the one hand, my view on many different types of products (RPGs, 
computers, computer programs, etc.) is that the option which provides 
the most flexibility should be provided.  So, usually, I would agree 
that there should be an "official" set of sector data for ALL areas of 
the Traveller setting.  Those who want to use them can do so.  Those who 
don't can make up their own stuff.  Maximum flexibility. >>

This is the view of a lot of people. It's the way Traveller has always 
been done, and it should stay that way.

<< However, in this case, I'm beginning to get the impression that a lot 
of folks (not necessarily TMLers) will allow Official Data to restrict 
their creativity.  It becomes "canon," even if they don't know the term. 
[G] >>

That's never been a problem in the past, why should it be now? And as 
long as people are having fun (just to remind people why we're here), 
what does it matter if they're not quite being as creative as they could 
be?

<< So, if I assume that this will be handled intelligently (that sectors 
to be developed officially will be clearly marked, etc.), I think the 
"blank sector data" method will be best. >>

But you can get the same effect by just saying 'referees are free to 
change or ignore anything they see here to fit in with their own 
personal view of the universe'. That way, *everyone* is happy. Full data 
will piss off nobody - those who were going to fill in the blanks will 
do so anyway - whereas holes will make many people very angry. They may 
even not buy the book(s), on the grounds that if they're being forced to 
write some of it they might as well save their money and do it all. New 
refs may also be put off, and buy something they can use straight out of 
the box instead.

<< Besides, I bet there will be folks who will put a lot of effort into 
developing certain regions of space, then release those online (esp. now 
that they know IG won't come along and publish the result of their hard 
work w/o their permission[G]) for all of us to use. >>

So you want to replace an official canon, available to everyone, with an 
unofficial one only available online?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 18:23 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

In-Reply-To: <9610162347.AA03383@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Those names...

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>         Years ago, when I bought GDW's The Flaming Eye (my favorite
> adventure), I found a planet called MURCIA in the Massilia sector (my
> favorite sector). Funny, its a province of Spain just south of mine.
> Unfortunately, it was so funny that made impossible to keep my players
> attention when they got to the world. Imagine you live in New York and
> arrive to a planet called Fifth Avenue, or Harlem.

Once upon a time, my group would have thought it was funny - we would 
have enjoyed it.  Later on, we would have figured the game designer(s) 
ran out of ideas, and denigrated them and their paltry efforts.  
Perhaps interestingly, these days we would once again find it funny. :) 
Getting older and milder, I guess. [G] >>

A few years ago, I was playing in an Aftermath campaign set in the 
States (North Dakota IIRC). Looking at a map of the state, I was amused 
to see a town called York, not far from another called Leeds - I live in 
Leeds and we were playing in nearby York. Explorers are notoriously 
unimaginative...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 18:23 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

In-Reply-To: <9610162347.AA03383@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Those names...

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>         Years ago, when I bought GDW's The Flaming Eye (my favorite
> adventure), I found a planet called MURCIA in the Massilia sector (my
> favorite sector). Funny, its a province of Spain just south of mine.
> Unfortunately, it was so funny that made impossible to keep my players
> attention when they got to the world. Imagine you live in New York and
> arrive to a planet called Fifth Avenue, or Harlem.

Once upon a time, my group would have thought it was funny - we would 
have enjoyed it.  Later on, we would have figured the game designer(s) 
ran out of ideas, and denigrated them and their paltry efforts.  
Perhaps interestingly, these days we would once again find it funny. :) 
Getting older and milder, I guess. [G] >>

A few years ago, I was playing in an Aftermath campaign set in the 
States (North Dakota IIRC). Looking at a map of the state, I was amused 
to see a town called York, not far from another called Leeds - I live in 
Leeds and we were playing in nearby York. Explorers are notoriously 
unimaginative...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:30:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> << From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> << So, if I assume that this will be handled intelligently (that sectors 
> to be developed officially will be clearly marked, etc.), I think the 
> "blank sector data" method will be best. >>
> 
> But you can get the same effect by just saying 'referees are free to 
> change or ignore anything they see here to fit in with their own 
> personal view of the universe'. That way, *everyone* is happy. Full data 
> will piss off nobody - those who were going to fill in the blanks will 
> do so anyway - whereas holes will make many people very angry. They may 

Andrew,

You've raised a point which I've found, recently, to be of interest.  It's 
just a game, yet we get very angry about it at times.  It's wonderful 
that we all get so wrapped up in this game, but there is (as always) the 
negative side of that.

Heck, I remember how upset I was at the idea of basing T4's ship design 
system on FF&S.  I was actually *depressed* for a while when it became 
clear that, indeed, IG was doing what the gearheads wanted them to do.

That's weird, isn't it?

Of course, after all was said and done, and I had a copy of QSDS, I was 
happy as a lark.  :)   It was a totally new way of designing ships (from 
my perspective as a CT ref), yet it was familiar as well.  It turned out 
to be exactly what I wanted - even though I didn't know what I wanted 
until I saw it. :)


> even not buy the book(s), on the grounds that if they're being forced to 
> write some of it they might as well save their money and do it all. New 

Hmmm. But is that right?  Will we be forced to write some of it?  I was 
under the impression that IG was going to provide several pre-defined 
areas.  A couple subsectors here, a few there, etc., as time goes on. 

True, that isn't the whole-sector scenario we had with previous 
products.  But, it could be enough for a campaign.  Heck, most of my 
campaigns took place within six or seven worlds.  But then, I'm probably 
atypical in that regard.



> << Besides, I bet there will be folks who will put a lot of effort into 
> developing certain regions of space, then release those online (esp. now 
> that they know IG won't come along and publish the result of their hard 
> work w/o their permission[G]) for all of us to use. >>
> 
> So you want to replace an official canon, available to everyone, with an 
> unofficial one only available online?

Me?  What do I want?  Hmmm.

Well, no, I don't think it should be limited to the online world.  But, 
yes, I think it would be nice to get rid of the "official canon" 
mentality.  Yes...yes, I do.

If BITS, CORE, Sword of the Knight, and/or Gold Rush Games comes out 
with, say, "The Spinward Marches Supplement" - fully defined and whatnot - 
would that be a bad thing?  If IG does it, it will be viewed as "official 
canon."  If a third party does it...well, at least there's a chance 
people will see it as being optional. :)

My comment about the probability of having vast regions of defined space 
available online was merely an example of what I expect to happen as a 
result of IG's policy of leaving system definition open.

I'm willing to give the new policy a try.  I may or may not like it, 
after I've used it for a while.  But, at this point, giving it try sounds 
worthwile.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:53:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

Joe Walsh said:
> True, that isn't the whole-sector scenario we had with previous 
> products.  But, it could be enough for a campaign.  Heck, most of my 
> campaigns took place within six or seven worlds.  But then, I'm probably 
> atypical in that regard.
> 

Not for most of the groups I've played in. Very often we were
focused on just one or two worlds, not even six or seven, and we dealt
with all the various planets & such within a system instead of taking
extended tours to our systems.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:54:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The new Core subsector

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Harley Grantham wrote:

> I think this means that Imperium games is using the same map as before,
> but new system profiles.  This would make sense if they intend to keep
> the Spinward Marches, and I suspect they do. (Hey Joe, any info on that?)

Here's the official line:  "Everything that was official Traveller 
history will remain official Traveller history.  What will change is 
that, history is always written by the victors.  So, what you know to be 
true may not, in fact, be true."

I interpret that to mean that, for instance, the boundaries between the 
Imperium, Zhodani, and Sword Worlds will remain as they have always been 
(once we get to 1100 anyway).  But, we may find out that, just as an 
example, the Imperium did some dirty tricks on the Zho's to get the 
territory they have.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Terri Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:30:43 -0400
Subject: auction results

These are the final results of my Traveller auction.  My most sincere
thanks to everyone who participated for their helpful comments and overall
politeness.  

1.  Adventure 1: The Kinuir		8.00	stormhvn@inreach.com	
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mith  7.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station	6.00	petermiller@youngmerlin.com	
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague	7.00	sennafan@rust.net	
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Interventi	7.00	sennafan@rust.net	
6.  Book 8: Robots			20.00	balcom@dayton.net	
7.  JTAS No.5				20.00	richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil	
8.  JTAS No. 6				7.00	robertbrennan@isocor.ie	
9.  JTAS No.7				4.00	robert.brennan@isocor.ie	
10. JTAS No.7				4.00	anonymous1	
11.  JTAS No.11				4.00	anonymous1	
12.  JTAS No. 12			5.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan		8.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani		30.00	mark@dk-online.dk	
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora	8.00	sennafan@rust.net	
16.  101 Vehicles			12.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit		12.00	dmalnati@absi.com	
18.Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook	40.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders		11.00	tom@surf.0.martech.fsu.edu	
20.  Far Traveller No. 1			10.00	jlockett@io.com	
21.  High Passage No. 2	 		21.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
22.  High Passage No. 3			30.00	dsmart@flash.net	
23.  High Passage No. 4			9.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
24.  High Passage No. 5			13.00	scrawlsfts@aol.com	
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.	12.00	tom@surf.0.martech.fsu.edu	
			
I will email the bidders with further info.

Thanks Again,
Nathan

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 22:06 BST-1
Subject: Blank Worlds Vote

There has been a lot of discussion recently about IG's intention to 
leave undefined areas of space, requiring the referee to determine the 
details of any worlds there. Many people, myself included, view this as 
a Bad Thing. I'd like to take a vote on what people think, to determine 
the majority view - if most people agree with me, I believe IG should 
change their plans. OTOH, if I'm in the minority, I'll shut up.

As I understand it, the positions are as follows:

FOR:
- - encourages creativity
- - allows refs to feel more in control

AGAINST:
- - more work for refs
- - encourages inconsistency in background

The possible options are:

1. Complete details on every world in the Imperium.

2. Complete details on some worlds, others limited to UWPs (but may be 
detailed later).

3. Complete details on some worlds, others limited to UWPs (and will not 
be detailed later).

4. Complete details on some worlds, others left blank (and will not be 
detailed later).

5. UWPs for some worlds, others left blank (and will not be detailed 
later).

6. No official data published.

To vote, send me a message (NOT to the TML) with the word 'vote' in the 
subject. In the body, list the option number you prefer. I'll post the 
results at the end of the month.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:00:10 -0700
Subject: What DID I post

WHAT DID I POST!!!  WHAT DID I POST!!!  Wait, What did I post.  :-)

Lets see: 
        A theory about JumpSpace (no response) (the one about the sphere and
fluid                                                 density)
        Info on Zhodani Contact with Vilini and Imperium
        Question about why Chemical Lasers aren't mentioned in T4
        Specs about the M. Falcon from the "Official" RPG GAME
                Including the equipment, cargo capacity, consumables, etc
        
All of the above was posted more than once.  And I posted a few more than
that too.
Anyway,  I got nada for response.  (One of the 'other' messages was a rant
about blackballing me from the conversations).  

And yes I'm pretty sure they got throught to the list.  After all my
messages kept popping up on the Trav Digest just no responses.

I'm not angry (well, maybe a little 8-P )

Just let me know.  Is this lack of response intentional or did nobody have
anything to say.

||||
O  O
 (   Brad Urwiller
 __  ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:31:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #573 

Amused to Death (so why is he still making posts to TML?) writes:
 
> Possible.  I just wish I knew why mail from overseas (Norway, England,
> Australia, South Africa, France, Japan, Hong Kong) arrives more promptly
and
> in better condition than mail from the US.  I've been assuming that the
> problem was with the US postal system because Canada Post manages OK with
> mail from other countries.
>
>Yeah, and at least our posties don't go psycho and M-16 their fellows when
they get 
>fired either

   Just for clarification, the weapon of choice among most Post Office
employees is not the M-16 (the full automatic, military version of the AR-15,
a 5.56 mm assault rifle).  Typically they use hand guns--I'm not sure if
semi-autos or revolvers predominate, though my guess would be semi-autos.

   Also, if you had to deal with as much stress as the typical U.S. Postal
employee, from irate customers to unreasonable supervisors, you might be
tempted into looking for firearms too....

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 17:37:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#565] Religions in T4 (was: Nicean Creed)

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) hath scriven...

T::>There's a fun little card game called Credo (published by Chaosium) in which
 ::>the players take the role of factions within the early church, trying to get
 ::>their version of the creed accepted in council.  The three priests I've
 ::>shown/played the game with have liked it, but some devout laypeople have
 ::>claimed it is sacreligious.  Bob (Rev. Peele if you're being formal) figures
 ::>that if you are secure in your faith you can enjoy it as just a game; of
 ::>course, he also says that all the trickery and politicking are old news to
 ::>anyone who has studied at a decent seminary.

 I'll have to see if the Compleat Strategist, my FLGS (friendly
 local gaming store) (plug plug) carries this.  It sounds fun.

T::>I've been tinkering with this 'future religion' project some more.  I think I
 ::>will use the 9 questions out of Runequest as a basis for describing
 ::>religions/sects.  That is, I will try to give a description of the religion
 ::>from the viewpoint of a believer.  I will also try to include some current
 ::>religions, if I can find people willing to write capsule summaries of their
 ::>faith for others to read.  More later...

 If you haven't already, I might recommend that you take a look
 at GURPS Religions.  I thought it was quite well written, and
 gave reasonably good ideas for the creation of religions.  Most
 of the examples that they gave, however, felt very
 conventional.  Which might only mean that they did a _good_
 job.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Only a fool would stand in the way of progress.


------------------------------

From: Derek Dees <fenris@solon.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:26:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Blank Worlds

Ladies, Gentlemen, and scum of the spaceways, 

(you decide which you are, I'm not naming names)


I've been following the discussion on what should be provided with great
interest. I am, personally, not the most creative person, however, I am
good at using published stuff for springboards. As a "compromise" between 
the two what I would like to see is a series of books devoted to the
different sectors. In an ideal (for me) situation they would be formatted
as follows

	A brief overview of the history, economics, and politics of the 
	sector as a whole.

	Each succeding chapter would then begin with the map of the 
	subsector is it about, the basic UPP information (maybe even
	the extented UPP rules I've seen on the net) and then any 
	detail needed for particularlly significant world in the 
	sector (i.e. Sylea).

	A collection of NPCs

	A collection of notable institutions (i.e. notable corps et.al.)

	A collection of adventure hooks and suggestions.

This would, I think provide what we (as a very generalized group) need to
put the players in their places. Also, by limiting the books, The price per
book will be lower per book, but we would buy more books. Also, each book, 
if inexpensive enough, could cover a specific melieu or all, depnding on 
how IG wanted to set that up.




Derek
fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris


------------------------------

From: Suzette Dollar <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:38:34 -0700
Subject: Re: What DID I post

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> WHAT DID I POST!!!  WHAT DID I POST!!!  Wait, What did I post.  :-)<snip>
> Just let me know.  Is this lack of response intentional or did nobody have
> anything to say.
> 
> ||||
> O  O
>  (   Brad Urwiller
>  __  ravyn@ptw.com

Brad,

I saw your posts, I just didn't have anything to say.
If there is a great Zhodani conspiracy going, they
left me out! :-)

Suz

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:46:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: What DID I post 

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15: 38:34 PDT
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:46:23 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Brad Urwiller wrote:
: > 
: > WHAT DID I POST!!!  WHAT DID I POST!!!  Wait, What did I post.  :-)<snip>
: > Just let me know.  Is this lack of response intentional or did nobody have
: > anything to say.
: > 
: > ||||
: > O  O
: >  (   Brad Urwiller
: >  __  ravyn@ptw.com
: 
: Brad,
: 
: I saw your posts, I just didn't have anything to say.
: If there is a great Zhodani conspiracy going, they
: left me out! :-)
: 
: Suz

I think that this is a desperate cry for attention.  Brad, please don't
take this the wrong way, but maybe there wasn't anything to respond to
in your posts.

Now, if you had mentioned rocks, orbital bombardment, religion or
something interesting....  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:12:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG News - 10/18/96

Imperium Games News                                      October 18, 1996

Shipping Dates
- --------------

The hardcovers that were not signed by Marc Miller (that is, those 
that were ordered after July 1) will be shipped by Oct 25.  We have 
been in the process of shipping the books for several weeks now, but the 
process has been delayed by our inability to meet the tremendous demand 
we experienced.  Quite simply, we were caught unprepared.  We are making 
the changes necessary to ensure that we won't be caught unprepared again.

We are very sorry about the misunderstanding that was created by our  
statement (on the web site) regarding the books that were sent via Priority 
Mail several weeks ago.  We were unclear in stating that the books which we 
were referring to were those that were ordered prior to July 1 (the 
hardbacks signed by Marc Miller).

Thank you for sticking with us as we experience these growing pains.  


Starships and JTAS #25
- ----------------------

In other news, Starships and JTAS 25 are off to the printer.  If you order 
Starships before November 15, you will receive a $5.00 coupon redeemable 
through our internet order store (http://www.imperiumgames.com) for 
future products. The coupon will be included in all Starships orders 
placed before November 15 (not just the ones placed after this date). The 
coupon will be good for one year. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:24:48 +0000
Subject: Re: What DID I post

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> All of the above was posted more than once.  And I posted a few more than
> that too.
> Anyway,  I got nada for response.  (One of the 'other' messages was a rant
> about blackballing me from the conversations).
>> And yes I'm pretty sure they got through to the list.  After all my
> messages kept popping up on the Trav Digest just no responses.
> I'm not angry (well, maybe a little 8-P )
> Just let me know.  Is this lack of response intentional or did nobody have
> anything to say.

I am surprised you got no responses at all. I may have gone into lurker mode at that time
Rest assured that most people on this list would (hopefully) not refuse to respond by 
blackballing.

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:35:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Script Font

On 18 Oct 96, Jo Grant said:

>     I heard a rumour that someone had deciphered the script used in
>many of the Traveller illustrations and that they had a computer font
>for it.

I worked out most of the letters using DGP's Starship Operator's Handbook.
The illustrations in the middle had enough clues to start puzzling out
words.  (BTW: The panel under the gunner's chair has a vacc suit in it.)
There were a few characters missing, and I searched DGP stuff for any
additional hints.

>     Does anyone know anything about this?

No, but I hope it's true!  Love to put that on my Trav page...


      
+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #575
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 19 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 576

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Microjumps
         2. Re: What DID I post
         3. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
         4. Re: IG News - 10/18/96
         5. Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562
         7. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
         8. Re: IG News - 10/18/96
         9. Regarding Sam Thomas' Message
        10. Re: Missile sizes
        11. Re: My New Job!: Plasma Fusion Center
        12. Re: What DID I post
        13. Re: IG News - 10/18/96
        14. Re: Missile sizes
        15. New web site
        16. No response
        17. Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!
        18. Re: Blank Worlds Vote
        19. Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message
        20. Where is everybody?
        21. Re: New web site
        22. Re: IG and the Essener Spieletage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:35:18 -0700
Subject: Microjumps

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> ps. I'm pretty sure that even back in CT there were references to using
> in-system jumps to cover large distances. For example, between
> different parts of a multiple star system.

There are. JTAS #22 has an article entitled "From Port to Jump-point"
which states "The jump 1 software may also provide for an in-system jump
to be made (sometimes referred to as jump-0). The rules are simple,
requiring that the in-system jump take fuel equal to jump-1...The time
it takes to complete that jump is 1 week."

With the re-publishing of the starship software rules in T4, the above
becomes valid again. (sounds of a 21 "canon" salute)

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:43:09 -0600
Subject: Re: What DID I post

At 02:00 pm 10/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
>WHAT DID I POST!!!  WHAT DID I POST!!!  Wait, What did I post.  :-)
>
>Lets see: 
>        A theory about JumpSpace (no response) (the one about the sphere and
>fluid                                                 density)
>        Info on Zhodani Contact with Vilini and Imperium
>        Question about why Chemical Lasers aren't mentioned in T4
>        Specs about the M. Falcon from the "Official" RPG GAME
>                Including the equipment, cargo capacity, consumables, etc
>        
>All of the above was posted more than once.  And I posted a few more than
>that too.
>Anyway,  I got nada for response.  (One of the 'other' messages was a rant
>about blackballing me from the conversations).  

        Some people have been having a bit of trouble with their mail, too.
I've been getting messages WAY out of order (try figuring out a reply to a
message you haven't seen), and I've been getting some messages a dozen
times. It took four days for a message from work to reach my provider. And
it's not just my provider; I've talked to others out here with different
providers and we're all having trouble.

        I never saw the chemical lasers post, for example. As for the
others, time doesn't permit me to even thoroughly read everything, much less
think about and comment. I skim most stuff. If it looks useful or
interesting I save it for later review. If it's very pertinent to what I'm
doing now, or interested in, I read it carefully. But I delete 45 out of 50
messages after skimming them.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:43:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Amused to Death wrote:
> > > The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:
> > >
> > >         An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC
> > >
> > >         An Aslan with an Honor Grudge
> > >
> > >         A Hiver with an Agenda
> >
> > You forget the *most* dangerous:
> >
> >         A GM with a new adventure idea...
> 
> I have you all beat....
> 
> A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game mechanics

...and knows the exact source and page number to back it up.

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:13:53 -0500
Subject: Re: IG News - 10/18/96

At 07:12 PM 10/18/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Imperium Games News                                      October 18, 1996
>
>Shipping Dates
>--------------
>
>The hardcovers that were not signed by Marc Miller (that is, those 
>that were ordered after July 1) will be shipped by Oct 25.  We have 
>been in the process of shipping the books for several weeks now, but the 
>process has been delayed by our inability to meet the tremendous demand 
>we experienced.  Quite simply, we were caught unprepared.  We are making 
>the changes necessary to ensure that we won't be caught unprepared again.
>
>We are very sorry about the misunderstanding that was created by our  
>statement (on the web site) regarding the books that were sent via Priority 
>Mail several weeks ago.  We were unclear in stating that the books which we 
>were referring to were those that were ordered prior to July 1 (the 
>hardbacks signed by Marc Miller).
>
>Thank you for sticking with us as we experience these growing pains.  
>

Hmmm, I talked to the lady at IG this morning, she that the one I ordered
before July 1, would shipped the Oct 25. Sounds like I am going to have to
give them a call, and put on my ASSHOLE hat!!!!!!!!!! Or that the info that
they gave you Joe is at best inaccurate to say the least. I also think that
you will find other members ordered the signed ones before July 1 and still
have not recieved their SIGNED copy!!!!!!!!!! This has truly been
interesting experience that does not bode well for IG.!!!!!!! Joe you might
want to turn on your Flaming Dampers to overdrive. I even recieved E-mail
from IG confirming my order and as to what I had ordered.!!!!

>Starships and JTAS #25
>----------------------
>
>In other news, Starships and JTAS 25 are off to the printer.  If you order 
>Starships before November 15, you will receive a $5.00 coupon redeemable 
>through our internet order store (http://www.imperiumgames.com) for 
>future products. The coupon will be included in all Starships orders 
>placed before November 15 (not just the ones placed after this date). The 
>coupon will be good for one year. 
>

Well as to ordering Starships, after the timely delivery of SIGNED Hardback,
lets say I will pay the full price if it ever shows up.

>-Joe
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
>ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
>Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....
>
>
Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:18:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Info needed on the "Beyond" sector

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> Moin David Joseph Smart,
> 
> > C = Die Weltbund (what the heck does this mean?)
> 
>         its an area first colonised form a german generation
>         ship, build by MBB/Erno Bremen. The "Die" is because
>         "Weltenbund" was the name of the ship ;-)

Thanks for all the posts on the translation. For those of you interested
in such things...:-) ...there is a web pages which deals with the design
of a starship using current/near-current technologies...and one design
has already been completed (drawing board, that is). The page is

http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/starship.html

and is associated with a university in the United States. It's well
worth looking at!

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:27:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are,
> well, 'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.

Would this be known as a "de-Marc-ation" zone? :-)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:39:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> 
> Amused to Death wrote:
> > > > The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:
> > > >
> > > >         An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC
> > > >
> > > >         An Aslan with an Honor Grudge
> > > >
> > > >         A Hiver with an Agenda
> > >
> > > You forget the *most* dangerous:
> > >
> > >         A GM with a new adventure idea...
> >
> > I have you all beat....
> >
> > A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game mechanics
> 
> ...and knows the exact source and page number to back it up.

B I N G O!!

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:38:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG News - 10/18/96

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, sam thomas wrote:

> Hmmm, I talked to the lady at IG this morning, she that the one I ordered
> before July 1, would shipped the Oct 25. Sounds like I am going to have to
> give them a call, and put on my ASSHOLE hat!!!!!!!!!! Or that the info that
> they gave you Joe is at best inaccurate to say the least. I also think that
> you will find other members ordered the signed ones before July 1 and still
> have not recieved their SIGNED copy!!!!!!!!!! This has truly been
> interesting experience that does not bode well for IG.!!!!!!! Joe you might
> want to turn on your Flaming Dampers to overdrive. I even recieved E-mail
> from IG confirming my order and as to what I had ordered.!!!!

Sam,

I was under the impression that all orders for signed hardbacks that 
were placed before July 1 had gone out long ago.  I was totally unaware 
that they had not all gone out - I thought it was only the unsigned 
hardbacks which were awaiting shipment.

Looks like I messed up again, because I am the one who inserted that 
bit.  I was attempting to make sure everything was clearly stated, yet I 
put something erroneous in there.

[sigh]

I'm sorry to have angered you.  That wasn't my intent.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:41:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message

Sam, and others who haven't received your signed hardbacks ordered prior 
to July 1:

Check the IG web site before you do anything, please.  If the news 
section says something that is not true, then please let me know.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:09:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Missile sizes

Dave Strebe wrote:
> 
> I'm sure this has been discused already, but I was trying to do a T4
> design and ran into a small problem with missiles. How much volume do
> reloads take up. Not much point to a turret that shoots two missiles and
> then is so much dead weight.

According to TNE's FF&S, "...The volume of each reload cradle is equal
to the volume of the missile carried multiplies by 1.5 and its price in
millions of credits is equal to its volume in cubic meters multiplied by
.0001."

And you're right about a turret being dead weight once it shoots its two
onboard missiles. That's why most large military vessels (in TNE at
least) would be designed with mechanical autoloaders and reload cradles.
It also an excellent case for merchants to carry additional "gunner's
mates".

>Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets?
> What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?

I've always thought that TL8 launching mechanisms were the epitome of
launching mechanisms simply because there wasn't any need to improve
beyond them. All that's necessary (IMO) is a link to arm/program the
sucker and something to kick it out the launch tube (assuming the
missile doesn't launch itself). Look at the Terrier missile launcher
hardware on the U.S. Ticonderoga-class missile cruiser. Of course, not
being anywhere close to an expert on missile launchers and not having
spent even a second in the Navy, I could be all wrong.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:21:40 -0700
Subject: Re: My New Job!: Plasma Fusion Center

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> I'm very excited to share with you'all that I will be starting a new job
> Monday with The Plasma Fusion Center at MIT Monday.
> 
> Don't get too excited, I'm a grant manager, not a researcher.  It does,
> however, present the opportunity to verify or explore some of the likely
> technical aspects of 1). Hot Fusion, and 2). Magnetic Sciences at TL 8 or
> 9.
> 
> Feel free to email me (at this address) with such technical requests, I
> bet the Researchers I'll be working for will just love it :)

Kewl...so like when are we going to have HEPlaR? I know it's possible;
it's in FF&S! :-)

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:31:45 -0700
Subject: Re: What DID I post

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> Anyway,  I got nada for response.  (One of the 'other' messages was a rant
> about blackballing me from the conversations).
> 
> Just let me know.  Is this lack of response intentional or did nobody have
> anything to say.

My lack of response was due to not having anything intelligent to add
re: your posts. As for blackballing, if anyone finds your emails
objectionable in any way, all they have to do is delete them from their
TML download. Keep on posting, Ace; I, for one, enjoy your (and
everybody else's) comments and thoughts. Creative discussions and info
transfer is what the Web is all about.

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:25:35 -0500
Subject: Re: IG News - 10/18/96

At 08:38 PM 10/18/96 -0500, Joe wrote:
>
>Sam,
>
>I was under the impression that all orders for signed hardbacks that 
>were placed before July 1 had gone out long ago.  I was totally unaware 
>that they had not all gone out - I thought it was only the unsigned 
>hardbacks which were awaiting shipment.
>
>Looks like I messed up again, because I am the one who inserted that 
>bit.  I was attempting to make sure everything was clearly stated, yet I 
>put something erroneous in there.
>
>[sigh]
>
>I'm sorry to have angered you.  That wasn't my intent.

I am no angry at you Joe. Just frustrated about not having my signed
hardbackafter after all this time. I also have been unable to get my local
gamestore to get a softcover, they got in 2 copies but unable to get more. 

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:37:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Missile sizes

At 09:09 PM 10/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Dave Strebe wrote:
>> 
>> I'm sure this has been discused already, but I was trying to do a T4
>> design and ran into a small problem with missiles. How much volume do
>> reloads take up. Not much point to a turret that shoots two missiles and
>> then is so much dead weight.
>
>According to TNE's FF&S, "...The volume of each reload cradle is equal
>to the volume of the missile carried multiplies by 1.5 and its price in
>millions of credits is equal to its volume in cubic meters multiplied by
>.0001."
>
>And you're right about a turret being dead weight once it shoots its two
>onboard missiles. That's why most large military vessels (in TNE at
>least) would be designed with mechanical autoloaders and reload cradles.
>It also an excellent case for merchants to carry additional "gunner's
>mates".
>
>>Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets?
>> What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?
>
>I've always thought that TL8 launching mechanisms were the epitome of
>launching mechanisms simply because there wasn't any need to improve
>beyond them. All that's necessary (IMO) is a link to arm/program the
>sucker and something to kick it out the launch tube (assuming the
>missile doesn't launch itself). Look at the Terrier missile launcher
>hardware on the U.S. Ticonderoga-class missile cruiser. Of course, not
>being anywhere close to an expert on missile launchers and not having
>spent even a second in the Navy, I could be all wrong.
>
Sorry to nikpick, the Ticonderoga has a VLS missile lauching systems.
Terrier missiles have not been much in use since the introduction of the
Standard 1 and 2 missiles. Unless you meant the Mk 26 system that the
Khomeni Class use. Yes you can improve the launching systems at higher tech
levels. A good example would be the Talos launcher verrsus the Mk 26. Vast
improvements were incorperated ignoring size differences in missiles.

Sinbad Sam
former US Surface Missile Firecontrolman 2nd
Harpoon, Tomahawk, Phalanx(CIWS), Nato Seasparrow, and Mk23 TAS radar.
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:21:20 -0800
Subject: New web site

Could I get you to provide a link to the following web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/or/healyzh/index.html it is called Technicolour
Daydreams.

I am in the process of putting it together and it has the beginings of a
Traveller section.  Since you like non-military ships, you might want to
check it out.  I'm working on a series of support ships that can be used in
both Civilian and Military settings.  The first three are a pair of
2000-ton Tankers, and a 800-ton fuel harvester.

				Thank You,
       					Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.angelfire.com/or/healyzh/index.html           |



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:19:59 -0400
Subject: No response

        Brad,

        I got concerned the first few times I posted stuff and no one said
anything. I was told that this is actually a good sign; they liked what you
posted, or didn't dislike it enough to pick it apart. If a lot of people
respond, they're probably shooting you full of holes.
        And as for blackballing, if they didn't blackmail me after the
Posting the Character Sheet to the Mailing List Fiasco, they certainly won't
blackball you! :)
                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:11:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!

Brad Urwiller wrote:

> Forgive Me.  I'm OMKB (On My Knees Begging).  What have I done to offend the
> list so.  For the past six to seven messages I've sent to the list I've
> recieved no reply not even a simple mention of my words in another thread.
> While I see that my messages do reach the Digest I wonder if I've somehow
> offended the list and been Blackballed.  Now I must reduce my Soc by 2 and
> state such loss of my membership on my UPP record.

Don't feel bad, Brad.  I spent days on getting the perfect task fix, and nobody had 
anything to say about it--not even the people who helped me work on it, or even 
yourself.

Oh well, I guess I'll take my task system and go home :(.

>From one loser to another,

Kenneth.


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:18:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Blank Worlds Vote

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> To vote, send me a message (NOT to the TML) with the word 'vote' in the
> subject. In the body, list the option number you prefer. I'll post the
> results at the end of the month.


Andrew didn't leave his e-mail address.  For everyone who wishes to vote, and I 
encourage you to do so, his address is aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:26:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> Sam, and others who haven't received your signed hardbacks ordered prior
> to July 1:
> 
> Check the IG web site before you do anything, please.  If the news
> section says something that is not true, then please let me know.
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>          .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....

Hi well I ordered my copy in the middle of June and did not get 
confirmation from IG till July. I have not recieved it yet. Now does 
this mean I am going to get a unsigned copy?

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:37:43 -0700
Subject: Where is everybody?

Hey, where did everybody go?

I know Joe is busy with his new duties, but I haven't seen any posts in a while from 
several people that are usually on this list.  I still see Leonard, Amused to Death, 
Andrew, and several others, but many are missing.

Where is Declan?

Where is Paul?

Where is Glenn?

Where is Trent?

Where is Eris?

Did all of you go on vacation or what?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:52:56 -0800
Subject: Re: New web site

>Could I get you to provide a link to the following web site:

Boy, is that embarassing.  That message should not have gotten sent to this
list.  Which is why it probably makes no sense to anyone.  All I can say is
I'm sorry for the foul-up I guess I need to pay closer attention to what
I'm doing.

			Sorry,
			   Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast          |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Mac Programmer            |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing   |
| see http://www.angelfire.com/or/healyzh/index.html           |



------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:59:27 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: IG and the Essener Spieletage

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:
> Thomas Biskup wrote:
> > As some of you already might now... right now (from thursday to sunday)
> > the Essener Spieletage (the largest gaming convention of the world) take
> > place over here in Germany. 
> Larger than Gencon?
> That is something like 25000 people, and you have more?!?
> That does it, I'm goin' to Germany

Please note that I said 'gaming convention' and not just 'roleplaying game
convention' -- the Essener Spieletage present all kinds of games -- from
kids games to roleplaying games to computer games to ancient chinese
strategy games and whatever else you can think.  I don't have the exact
numbers right now but there are *far* more than 25000 visitors if I
remember
correctly.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #576
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 19 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 577

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
         2. Re: IG News - 10/18/96
         3. Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message
         4. Re: Traveller Script Font
         5. Re: Missile sizes
         6. Re: IG News - 10/18/96
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #576
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #576
         9. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        10. Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #575
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #575
        13. Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!
        14. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
        15. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
        16. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        17. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        18. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        19. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
        20. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        21. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        22. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        23. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:23:49 +0200
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

>> A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game mechanics
>
>...and knows the exact source and page number to back it up.

No problem as the GM is always right per definition and who uses published
rules anyway?


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:41:45 -0700
Subject: Re: IG News - 10/18/96

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> Imperium Games News                                      October 18, 1996
> 
> Shipping Dates
> --------------
> 
> The hardcovers that were not signed by Marc Miller (that is, those
> that were ordered after July 1) will be shipped by Oct 25.  We have
> been in the process of shipping the books for several weeks now, but the
> process has been delayed by our inability to meet the tremendous demand
> we experienced.  Quite simply, we were caught unprepared.  We are making
> the changes necessary to ensure that we won't be caught unprepared again.
> 
> Starships and JTAS #25
> ----------------------

Now this is what I call good PR. Joe, do you know if your message will
be posted to IG's News on their homepage? If not, it should be.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:47:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Dave Strebe wrote:

> Hi well I ordered my copy in the middle of June and did not get 
> confirmation from IG till July. I have not recieved it yet. Now does 
> this mean I am going to get a unsigned copy?

While I can't contact IG over the weekend, I believe Sam Thomas said that 
IG confirmed that he will be receiving his signed copy, and he's in the 
same boat as you are.  This seems to mean that, for some reason, IG 
wasn't able to fill all of the orders for signed copies at once, but is 
supposed to do so by Oct 25 - at least, that's the latest date by which to 
get all the hardbacks out the door.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:45:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Script Font

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> On 18 Oct 96, Jo Grant said:
> 
> >     I heard a rumour that someone had deciphered the script used in
> >many of the Traveller illustrations and that they had a computer font
> >for it.
> 
> I worked out most of the letters using DGP's Starship Operator's Handbook.
> The illustrations in the middle had enough clues to start puzzling out
> words.  (BTW: The panel under the gunner's chair has a vacc suit in it.)

Would you mind posting what you have?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:59:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Missile sizes

sam thomas wrote:
> Khomeni Class use. Yes you can improve the launching systems at higher tech
> levels. A good example would be the Talos launcher verrsus the Mk 26. Vast
> improvements were incorperated ignoring size differences in missiles.
> 
> Sinbad Sam
> former US Surface Missile Firecontrolman 2nd
> Harpoon, Tomahawk, Phalanx(CIWS), Nato Seasparrow, and Mk23 TAS radar.
> sinbad@dfw.net

Ha! I _knew_ my comments would make any expert out there decloak! Could
you give your thoughts as to what other improvements higher TL launchers
might have? Nothing classified, of course, just any ideas for us folks
who lack the basic knowledge.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:07:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG News - 10/18/96

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> Now this is what I call good PR. Joe, do you know if your message will
> be posted to IG's News on their homepage? If not, it should be.

Heh.  Actually, I just copied the home page, and re-stated everything for 
what I thought was "clarity" but which in fact introduced 
that error about signed hardbacks. :(

But, yes, the homepage does mention the coupon and tries to clarify the 
Priority Mail question that some people have had based on the long-ago 
note on the web site regarding "the hardbacks are shipping via priority 
mail." 

Thanks,


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:07:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #576

My group has become rather attached to a campaign set just prior to TNE. 
We are currently at about 1109. We do not plan to have the virus 
released in the period following the assassination.  Can any one direct 
me to a web or FTP site where I could download sector UWPs in ASCII 
format that cover this period (1100 thru 1120)? We currently have the 
Deneb domain and a few sectors near it, and would appreciate any help 
that can be provided.

Ed

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:12:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #576

Ed Dowgiallo wrote:
> 
> My group has become rather attached to a campaign set just prior to TNE.
> We are currently at about 1109. We do not plan to have the virus
> released in the period following the assassination.  Can any one direct
> me to a web or FTP site where I could download sector UWPs in ASCII
> format that cover this period (1100 thru 1120)? We currently have the
> Deneb domain and a few sectors near it, and would appreciate any help
> that can be provided.
> 
> Ed

Oh, my, yes!
Try http://eeyore.lv-hrc.nevada.edu/~indy/sectors/sectors.html and get
ready to get your socks knocked off!

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:17:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Hi!

	Still no hardcover (signed) here in Sherbrooke/Quebec/Canada.

	In fact, we don't even have softcovers yet!   But that's due
to a distributor folding up.   I'm starting to wonder if the game
actually exists...


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:06:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message

At 07:47 AM 10/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Dave Strebe wrote:
>
>> Hi well I ordered my copy in the middle of June and did not get 
>> confirmation from IG till July. I have not recieved it yet. Now does 
>> this mean I am going to get a unsigned copy?
>
>While I can't contact IG over the weekend, I believe Sam Thomas said that 
>IG confirmed that he will be receiving his signed copy, and he's in the 
>same boat as you are.  This seems to mean that, for some reason, IG 
>wasn't able to fill all of the orders for signed copies at once, but is 
>supposed to do so by Oct 25 - at least, that's the latest date by which to 
>get all the hardbacks out the door.
>

Correction Joe, she said that my copy would be sent out the 25, I ASSUMED
that she meant the SIGNED copy. "Thwap Thwap Thwap" Sound of wet carp
slaping a face"

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net
>-Joe
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
>ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
>Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 17:10 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #575

In-Reply-To: <9610190036.AA09968@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

You've raised a point which I've found, recently, to be of interest.  
It's just a game, yet we get very angry about it at times.  It's 
wonderful that we all get so wrapped up in this game, but there is (as 
always) the negative side of that.

Heck, I remember how upset I was at the idea of basing T4's ship design 
system on FF&S.  I was actually *depressed* for a while when it became 
clear that, indeed, IG was doing what the gearheads wanted them to do.

That's weird, isn't it? >>

But understandable. I've been playing (usually refereeing) Traveller for 
about 15 years now - that's *over half my life!* I've met a lot of 
friends through it, and spend a horrifying amount of time and money on 
it. You can't go through all that without getting a pretty strong 
emotional attachment to something, and it's only natural to get upset 
when somebody tries to change it in ways you don't like.

<< Hmmm. But is that right?  Will we be forced to write some of it?  I 
was under the impression that IG was going to provide several 
pre-defined areas.  A couple subsectors here, a few there, etc., as time 
goes on. >>

But all, AIUI, with 'blank areas'.

<< True, that isn't the whole-sector scenario we had with previous 
products.  But, it could be enough for a campaign.  Heck, most of my 
campaigns took place within six or seven worlds.  But then, I'm probably 
atypical in that regard. >>

Possibly. The main part of my campaign was set in the Solomani Rim, and 
the PCs must've visited every subsector at least once. Hey, the game is 
called 'Traveller' after all!

<< Me?  What do I want?  Hmmm.

Well, no, I don't think it should be limited to the online world.  But, 
yes, I think it would be nice to get rid of the "official canon" 
mentality.  Yes...yes, I do. >>

But the background *is* the game! Let's face it, none of us are playing 
it because we think the rules are the best ever designed (they're okay, 
but they're not the reason for buying the game). We're playing because 
the wonderfully detailed history and background material provides a 
great environment in which to adventure. I could join in any Traveller 
game anywhere in the world - at a con, for example - and I could slot 
right in, because I already know the background. Ask any question you 
like - what colour are IISS uniforms? Why did the 3I expand Spinward? - 
and someone here will point you to an official answer, or make an 
educated guess. The more you start saying, 'well, this isn't really 
official' or 'the ref can design this bit', the more you lose that feel, 
and the more the game becomes just another generic space opera.

<< If BITS, CORE, Sword of the Knight, and/or Gold Rush Games comes out 
with, say, "The Spinward Marches Supplement" - fully defined and whatnot 
- - would that be a bad thing?  If IG does it, it will be viewed as 
"official canon."  If a third party does it...well, at least there's a 
chance people will see it as being optional. :) >>

I count any licensed product - the DGP stuff, for example - as canon.

<< I'm willing to give the new policy a try.  I may or may not like it, 
after I've used it for a while.  But, at this point, giving it try 
sounds worthwile. >>

But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and 
taste"ste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 17:10 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #575

In-Reply-To: <9610190036.AA09968@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

You've raised a point which I've found, recently, to be of interest.  
It's just a game, yet we get very angry about it at times.  It's 
wonderful that we all get so wrapped up in this game, but there is (as 
always) the negative side of that.

Heck, I remember how upset I was at the idea of basing T4's ship design 
system on FF&S.  I was actually *depressed* for a while when it became 
clear that, indeed, IG was doing what the gearheads wanted them to do.

That's weird, isn't it? >>

But understandable. I've been playing (usually refereeing) Traveller for 
about 15 years now - that's *over half my life!* I've met a lot of 
friends through it, and spend a horrifying amount of time and money on 
it. You can't go through all that without getting a pretty strong 
emotional attachment to something, and it's only natural to get upset 
when somebody tries to change it in ways you don't like.

<< Hmmm. But is that right?  Will we be forced to write some of it?  I 
was under the impression that IG was going to provide several 
pre-defined areas.  A couple subsectors here, a few there, etc., as time 
goes on. >>

But all, AIUI, with 'blank areas'.

<< True, that isn't the whole-sector scenario we had with previous 
products.  But, it could be enough for a campaign.  Heck, most of my 
campaigns took place within six or seven worlds.  But then, I'm probably 
atypical in that regard. >>

Possibly. The main part of my campaign was set in the Solomani Rim, and 
the PCs must've visited every subsector at least once. Hey, the game is 
called 'Traveller' after all!

<< Me?  What do I want?  Hmmm.

Well, no, I don't think it should be limited to the online world.  But, 
yes, I think it would be nice to get rid of the "official canon" 
mentality.  Yes...yes, I do. >>

But the background *is* the game! Let's face it, none of us are playing 
it because we think the rules are the best ever designed (they're okay, 
but they're not the reason for buying the game). We're playing because 
the wonderfully detailed history and background material provides a 
great environment in which to adventure. I could join in any Traveller 
game anywhere in the world - at a con, for example - and I could slot 
right in, because I already know the background. Ask any question you 
like - what colour are IISS uniforms? Why did the 3I expand Spinward? - 
and someone here will point you to an official answer, or make an 
educated guess. The more you start saying, 'well, this isn't really 
official' or 'the ref can design this bit', the more you lose that feel, 
and the more the game becomes just another generic space opera.

<< If BITS, CORE, Sword of the Knight, and/or Gold Rush Games comes out 
with, say, "The Spinward Marches Supplement" - fully defined and whatnot 
- - would that be a bad thing?  If IG does it, it will be viewed as 
"official canon."  If a third party does it...well, at least there's a 
chance people will see it as being optional. :) >>

I count any licensed product - the DGP stuff, for example - as canon.

<< I'm willing to give the new policy a try.  I may or may not like it, 
after I've used it for a while.  But, at this point, giving it try 
sounds worthwile. >>

But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and 
taste"ste"

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:40:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> Don't feel bad, Brad.  I spent days on getting the perfect task fix, and nobody had
> anything to say about it--not even the people who helped me work on it, or even
> yourself.
> Oh well, I guess I'll take my task system and go home :(.

Some of us will occcasionally post, but sometimes we will just nod knowingly (but you 
cannot see that, now can you)

I know how Kenneth felt, he was the only one who even took the time to critique my 
task system (the DGP-3)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:43:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >> A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game mechanics
> >
> >...and knows the exact source and page number to back it up.
> 
> No problem as the GM is always right per definition and who uses published
> rules anyway?

You don't know my players.
Bulldogs would be impressed by their tenacity.
And I do not want to seem to be arbitrary, but at times they are a RRPITA

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:44:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >> A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game mechanics
> >
> >...and knows the exact source and page number to back it up.
> 
> No problem as the GM is always right per definition and who uses published
> rules anyway?

You don't know my players.
Bulldogs would be impressed by their tenacity.
And I do not want to seem to be arbitrary, but at times they are a RRPITA
I eventually gave up and ended the campaign because I am busy searching for a job, and 
I did not want to have to work full time on the bloody campaign

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:47:17 +0000
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

pierre-louis constantin wrote:
>         Still no hardcover (signed) here in Sherbrooke/Quebec/Canada. 
>         In fact, we don't even have softcovers yet!   But that's due
> to a distributor folding up.   I'm starting to wonder if the game
> actually exists...

Yes Virginia, there is  a T4 game
It just seems that IG hates Canada, that's all

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:56:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, pierre-louis constantin wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> 	Still no hardcover (signed) here in Sherbrooke/Quebec/Canada.
> 
> 	In fact, we don't even have softcovers yet!   But that's due
> to a distributor folding up.   I'm starting to wonder if the game
> actually exists...

Pierre,

In fact, you are correct.  There is no such game.  It is all a conspiricy 
by the Third Imperium, crafted to influence loyal Solomanis such as 
yourself to abandon your benevolent government in favor of their decadent 
one.
  
I've been noting the names of those who have claimed to have this book - 
whether in "hardcover" or "softcover" chip format - and you can be 
assured that this information is being reported to SolSec.  You are 
advised to consider all those who claim to have that book to be Imperial 
spies. 

Keep the faith, and keep the race pure!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
     .....Official Public Relations Agent of the Solomani....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:03:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:

> Yes Virginia, there is  a T4 game
> It just seems that IG hates Canada, that's all

Ah, another conspirator.  Your name has been noted, and agents are on 
their way to your residence.  Please remain there, and you will not be 
harmed. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         ....Official Solomani Truth Specialist....
Motto: "If you don't hear it from us, don't believe it!"

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:29:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Amused to Death wrote:
> > No problem as the GM is always right per definition and who uses published
> > rules anyway?
> 
> You don't know my players.
> Bulldogs would be impressed by their tenacity.
> And I do not want to seem to be arbitrary, but at times they are a RRPITA
> I eventually gave up and ended the campaign because I am busy searching for a job, and
> I did not want to have to work full time on the bloody campaign

I ran into a similar situation with a very short campaign in college (or
at University for those down under. :-) ). I ended up designating the
rules lawyer as my associate Referee; he kept track of the tiny details
during a run while I kept track of the overall adventure. Since he was
part of the "PC group", he kinda got caught between a rock and a hard
place when his detailing started working for the NPCs, too. And nobody
could complain since "it's in the rules". To paraphrase Sun Tzu, "use
your opponent's strength against him."

------------------------------

From: Suzette Dollar <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:51:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> > Yes Virginia, there is  a T4 game
> > It just seems that IG hates Canada, that's all
> 
> Ah, another conspirator.  Your name has been noted, and agents are on
> their way to your residence.  Please remain there, and you will not be
> harmed.
> 
> -Joe

Joe,

Thank you for brightening my four miserable hours at work!

ROFLMAOIDOWMP!

Suz

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:48:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> > Yes Virginia, there is  a T4 game
> > It just seems that IG hates Canada, that's all
> 
> Ah, another conspirator.  Your name has been noted, and agents are on
> their way to your residence.  Please remain there, and you will not be
> harmed.
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>          ....Official Solomani Truth Specialist....
> Motto: "If you don't hear it from us, don't believe it!"

Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:00:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Joe Walsh wrote:
> Ah, another conspirator.  Your name has been noted, and agents are on
> their way to your residence.  Please remain there, and you will not be
> harmed.

No, It Wasn'T ME, IT WASN'T MEEEEEEEEE

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:11:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> >Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:51:58 -0700
> >Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
> >
> >The three most dangerous beings in the Traveller Universe:
> >
> >       An Imperial Marine with his Grav APC
> >
> >       An Aslan with an Honor Grudge
> >
> >       A Hiver with an Agenda
> 
> Lemme guess, not in that particular order, right?
> 
> I could add a fourth...
> 
> The TMLer who has just been asked about RPG's and Religion. :)

Yep, just add flamethrower ;)

- --Rich



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #577
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 19 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 578

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: [Fwd: Re: Missile sizes]
         2. Exploring with jump-1 ships
         3. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         4. Imperial Establishing Document
         5. Re: Striker II SU*KS
         6. Re: Starship Economics
         7. Selling high tech
         8. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         9. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        10. Anagram
        11. Starship interest rates
        12. Imperium Games anagrams
        13. World populations
        14. Re: IG News - 10/18/96
        15. Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message
        16. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        17. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        18. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        19. Re: [Fwd: Re: Missile sizes]
        20. Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships
        21. Re: World populations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:40:27 -0700
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Missile sizes]

Dave Strebe wrote:
> <snip>                                                                         
> David Joseph Smart wrote:
> 
> Dave Strebe wrote:

> >Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets?
> > What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?
> 
> I've always thought that TL8 launching mechanisms were the epitome of
> launching mechanisms simply because there wasn't any need to improve
> beyond them. All that's necessary (IMO) is a link to arm/program the
> sucker and something to kick it out the launch tube (assuming the
> missile doesn't launch itself). Look at the Terrier missile launcher
> hardware on the U.S. Ticonderoga-class missile cruiser. Of course, not
> being anywhere close to an expert on missile launchers and not having
> spent even a second in the Navy, I could be all wrong.

Ok, but what I was trying to ask referred to the missiles themselves 
shouldn't they improve as the tech level increases? By this I mean the 
targating componenents, ECM, destructive power, size needed, cost etc. 
as the tech improves so should the missiles <shrug>
thanks
Dave

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:10:21 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Exploring with jump-1 ships

Leonard Erickson writes:
>>1. The Sylean Federation has been wandering around for what, centuries? 
>>There will be info on those worlds. There are probably still records 
>>from the Rule of Man.
> 
>With J1 drives, getting there would be a *major* undertaking. How many
>ships are equipped to make *4* jumps? I say four, because until you've
>been there, you don't know if you can refuel there.
> 
>So instead you need to establish (and be able to find again!) a fuel
>dump halfway. That only takes a ship that can make *two* jumps and
>carry some cargo (fuel bladders or the like).

Any ship with 30% of its tonnage dedicated to fuel tankage could do it. The
first jump is made with drop tanks. In fact, using collapsible tanks any
ship with 10% fuel tankage and at least 20% cargo space could do it. So
the answer to your question is: every cargo ship in the Imperium plus any
specially designed scout ships. Besides, the early Imperium is TL 12. That
means that the Sylean Federation was at least TL 11, which means that 
jump-2 ships would be common. Using drop tanks _any_ jump-2 ship can cross
a 1-parsec gap and be back in two weeks.

BTW. I was under the impression that the new technology that makes the
Imperium Top Dog is not jump-3 (that has been known since before the Rule
of Man) but Fusion+. Am I wrong there? Joe, did the Syleans lose jump-3 
technology during the Long Night?

>Now it's true that there may be old records. But they are only adequate
>for size, type and number of planets. Atmosphere and hydro are things
>that *can* be affected by the "fall of civilization" and similar
>events, even at thse tech levels.

OK, you got me. How could the fall of civilization affect hydrographic
percentages and Gas Giants? Please explain.

>Population, law level, gov type, tech level are all things that *will*
>have changed over the centuries.

Agreed. Which is why I would advocate publishing such long unvisited
worlds as, f.ex., ?678???-?.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:21:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, pierre-louis constantin wrote:
> 
> > Hi!
> >
> >       Still no hardcover (signed) here in Sherbrooke/Quebec/Canada.
> >
> >       In fact, we don't even have softcovers yet!   But that's due
> > to a distributor folding up.   I'm starting to wonder if the game
> > actually exists...
> 
> Pierre,
> 
> In fact, you are correct.  There is no such game.  It is all a conspiricy
> by the Third Imperium, crafted to influence loyal Solomanis such as
> yourself to abandon your benevolent government in favor of their decadent
> one.
> 
> I've been noting the names of those who have claimed to have this book -
> whether in "hardcover" or "softcover" chip format - and you can be
> assured that this information is being reported to SolSec.  You are
> advised to consider all those who claim to have that book to be Imperial
> spies.
> 
> Keep the faith, and keep the race pure!
> 
> -Joe
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
> ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
> Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
>      .....Official Public Relations Agent of the Solomani....
 I am so mad. I note in  the above Mail that You too know about the Chip
version of T4. I swear I paid in advance for My copies T4 Chips both Mac
and PC Versions. Where are My Copies? 
 It is You and Your Pals at IG, I know it. I heard from My Friends that
You sent Copies to Cuba and Mars. I swear I have seen copies of the
shipping invoices. I demand My copies! 
 I and My Fellow members of the Legion of Truth are watching Your every
move. Dont think You Guys can can Get away with anything. As soon as
Meds are passed out it is back to My post of eternal vigilance at the
screen of My C64 here at The Belvue Institute for the very very nervous.
      						       I want My Stuff!
                                                          Cmd. 34587

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:28:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Imperial Establishing Document

Hi,

A while back, we had quite a discussion about the Imperial Establishing 
Document/Warrant/whatever (I recall that several names for it were 
proposed).  As I recall, a couple of highly agreeable documents came out 
of that.  

Unfortunately, I neglected to keep a copy of them.  If someone could 
email me a copy of the top two or three candidates (or point me to a web 
site where they're stored), I'd appreciate it greatly.


Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:32:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Striker II SU*KS

At 06:43 AM 10/17/96 EST, Bill Hutchinson wrote:
>I'am looking for new rules somthing other then striker 2.
>For Mass man to man combat.
>So has anyone came across anything???

You could try Dirtside II for mass combat and Stargrunt (II?) for man-to-man
combat.  Both are put out by Ground Zero Games and both are (relatively)
quick and playable. 

- - Bill Rutherford


------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:14:19 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: Starship Economics

David Blustein writes:
>
>Phillip McGregor, Leonard Erikson, and Guy Garnett have got me
>wondering what those credits really buy!
> 
>It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power
>plant, and the wear and tear on the life support system would be
>covered by the ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit
>the food & water seems like it should cost less than Cr140. Also,
>wouldn't the life suport system be using the ship's power plant for
>its power requirements as well? Using a figure of Cr1000 per week for
>the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?
> 
>Now I'm really baffled...

Right! What do you tell a player who says that his character has counted
out the Cr. 20,000 for this fortnight's overhead and asks: "Now, who do
I pay the money to, and what does he give me in return?"


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:18:26 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Selling high tech

Joel Lovell writes:
>If a ship carried a library of technological specs and plans, and samples
>from a TL12 system, and went to TL7,8,9,10, etc. worlds, couldn't they sell
>this technology for mega bucks?

IMO. any world that is not actually interdicted already has access to that
knowledge. They just don't have the industrial background to implement it.
(Or there could be religious or philosophical objections).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:02:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
> Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...

Well, what are we thinking....MR. ZHODANI SPY!

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:03:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:

> No, It Wasn'T ME, IT WASN'T MEEEEEEEEE

Citizens:

The traitor known as "Amused to Death" has turned out to be a highly 
skilled and effective spy.  He was able to elude our SolSec agents, and 
is now on the run.  

Please remain calm.  You are in no danger.  However, due to the nature of 
this incident, we have been forced to announce that it is necessary to 
institute a new policy regarding freedom of movement.  Honest citizens 
will be affected in only the slightest of ways.  

When one of the friendly SolSec agents being dispatched thoughout the 
territory asks you for your identification, or requests assistance in any 
way, please show full cooperation.  

With your loyal assistance, we will aprehend this renegade traitor.

We will continue to update you as information becomes available.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
      ...First Undersecretary to the Chief of Public Reassurance...



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:17:30 +0000
Subject: Anagram

These are anagrams of Traveller Four

Forever all rut-do not let this happen, try to get new players
Voter full rare-vote on the format of sectors

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:08:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Starship interest rates

Hi.

>From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:16:34 -0700
>Subject: Re: Starship economics & Misjumps

>When I figured out the starship payments and time frame I ended up 
>with an interest rate of about 4% and that's assuming that the
>payments are just PI (Principal & Interest) not PITI (Principle,
>Interest, Taxes, & Insurance).  Does anyone else think this is 
>low for the risk level on a Free Trader?  And if those payments
>are PITI, then the interest rate is probably down at 3%....
>That doesn't sound like a cold hearted banker to me.

5.6% compounded quarterly, without taxes or insurance. You're right, the
interest rates are very low...compared to our modern Keynesian
economies. But they may make sense if you assume that there is no
inflation in the Imperium. Or that growth is very slow. Both of these
assumptions are easy to make given our knowlege of imperial history.

And I never figured feudal Imperialists to be the Keynesian types
anyway. It's more likely they're sticklers for the "Lanthanum Standard"
or somesuch.

But if you're attached to Keynesian monetary systems, then you can
postulate special subsidies by governments or corporations. Heck, Mazda
is financing my new car at 5.5% interest over six years. They're doing
that because they expect me to trade it in (for another Mazda only,
since they hold the title) in three years. And they want to insure my
repeat business.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:20:19 +0000
Subject: Imperium Games anagrams

Is Premium Game  
Premium Images
Simmer Image Up

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:27:15 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: World populations

Robert Flammang writes:
>
>Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
>comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
>pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.

Not quite true. I don't have a problem with SOME unpleasant worlds having a 
larger population than SOME pleasant worlds. What I object to is all worlds, 
regardless of habitability, having the exact same population distribution. 
3% of them have 0-9 people, 7% of them have 10-99 people, etc.
 
I also have a problem with pleasant worlds having NO population whatsoever.

>I don't buy this assertion. If it were true, then it should be reflected
>in real life here on earth. In other words, the island of Oahu should
>have a higher population than the island of Manhattan (It doesn't). And
>New Zealand should have a higher pop than Great Britain. And Wyoming
>should have a higher pop than New Jersey. And so on ad nauseam.

But it is reflected in real life here on Earth. There are more people
living in areas with decent farmland than there are people living in 
mountains and in the arctic. If your assertation were correct then why
isn't one 7th of the world's population living on the Antarctic
continent?
 
>In fact, pleasure is rarely the first factor in determining where people
>live. The primary factors are usually economic and social.

But that's exactly my point. If you have the choice of setting up a new
colony on a world where you can breathe the air and grow your own food
and one where you need expensive protection from the environment, which
one would you choose?

And of course quality of life counts for _something_. You may prefer to
live in a hell-hole if you can earn two or three times what you could
earn in a pleasant place, but if the difference is only 10 or 20 % then
you might well choose the less economic, but more pleasant, alternative.
I certainly would.

>2) What is the cost of living and how much is the real estate? Pleasant
>worlds are going to cost more to live on (typically) because the land is
>in demand  by people who can afford it. In a technologically advanced
>civilization, hostile environs are not going to drive up the cost of
>living as much as they do today. So places like Pittsburgh are going to
>be cheaper to live in than places like Aspen or Key West.

But only if someone else wants to live in Aspen. If the worlds are empty 
in the first place, why not choose the pleasant one? 

>3) Who lives there already and do they like me? Nice places almost
>always have laws that restrict the number and kind of people who can
>move there. New Zealand, Canada, and the US are all famous (imfamous?) 
>for being difficult to move to.

Again, you need someone living there in the first place for this to be a
factor. A pleasant world with populations in the millions is cool
(provided there is an associated planet with an economy strong enough to 
build the navy you'd need to protect it) but pleasant worlds with
populations in the tens are not. Such a world would be so valuable that
you'd need to own several others personally in order to afford NOT to
develop it. So a few Imperial reservations are OK, but definitely not
too many.

>So if you find that Traveller's population distributions don't make much
>sense to you, I'd say that you might be working from faulty assumptions.

My assumptions may or may not be faulty, but Traveller's assumptions 
definitely are. Any assumptions that makes the population distributions on 
Terran-norm worlds EXACTLY the same as on worlds with insidious atmospheres 
are faulty.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "This gives a possible range of 56 to 178 starships
         total  in the three Terran starport facilities,  a
         believable quantity for such a star system."

        "We have a maximum of 178 ships in port, and (as it
         is a busy star system)  we will say that there are
         70 docking berths at the Phoenix facility."

                        ---Journal of the Traveller's
                           Aid Society # 22

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:44:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: IG News - 10/18/96

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, "Sindbad" Sam Thomas wrote:

> I am no angry at you Joe. Just frustrated about not having my signed
> hardbackafter after all this time. I also have been unable to get my local
> gamestore to get a softcover, they got in 2 copies but unable to get more. 

I can understand how you might be a wee bit frustrated at this point.  
[grin]  It's gonna be great once all the T4 hardbacks are in the proper 
hands.  Then, we can all start working on the type of projects that have 
been going on around here, such as coming up with alternative task 
systems.  It'll be great when everyone can participate in the efforts to 
customize T4 to individual styles. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:47:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Regarding Sam Thomas' Message

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, sam thomas wrote:

> Correction Joe, she said that my copy would be sent out the 25, I ASSUMED
> that she meant the SIGNED copy. "Thwap Thwap Thwap" Sound of wet carp
> slaping a face"

Hmmm.  Looks like we'll find out in a couple of weeks (I hope)...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:52:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
> Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...

Okay, Mr. "Smart" (if that really is your name), you're on our list now, too.

Your attempt at misdirection was ineffective.  We do not care whether you 
are Imperialist, Zhodani, Hiver, or what-have-you.  All we know is, if 
you aren't with us, you are against us.

And if you are against us, you will be tracked, found, and dealt with.  
Permanently.

Citizens:  If you see a being answering to the description you see on 
your terminal now, contact SolSec immediately!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
      ....Official Solomani Enforcer of Public Safety....


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:54:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Charlie wrote:

>  I am so mad. I note in  the above Mail that You too know about the Chip
> version of T4. I swear I paid in advance for My copies T4 Chips both Mac
> and PC Versions. Where are My Copies? 

Had me going for a second there Charlie. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:54:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:

> David Joseph Smart wrote:
> > Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
> > Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...
> 
> Well, what are we thinking....MR. ZHODANI SPY!

That's it, just keep sending out those broadcasts. We're closing in on 
you....





------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:59:15 -0700
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Missile sizes]

Dave Strebe wrote:
>
> > >Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets?
> > > What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?
> Ok, but what I was trying to ask referred to the missiles themselves
> shouldn't they improve as the tech level increases? By this I mean the
> targating componenents, ECM, destructive power, size needed, cost etc.
> as the tech improves so should the missiles <shrug>
> thanks
> Dave

Ah. You're absolutely correct. Not only should them but in TNEs Fire,
Fusion, & Steel design book, they did. The nuclear warheads became more
powerful, sensors decreased in size, etc. Hopefully, these and other TL
based improvements will be resurrected in the more detailed ship design
system promised by IG. I would admit to
being a gearhead but I'm not; I'm a Traveller who believes in stacking
the deck in my favor, if possible.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:05:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> OK, you got me. How could the fall of civilization affect hydrographic
> percentages and Gas Giants? Please explain.

My thinking is it wasn't the fall itself but possibly the cause of the
fall. Say, carpet bombing with megatons of nukes from orbit, major
vulcanism, or massive forest fires.  Other than that, I'm at a loss
myself. After all, how much did the collapse of the Roman Empire affect
the level of the oceans?

------------------------------

From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:08:41 -0500
Subject: Re: World populations

At 4:27 PM 10/19/96, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Robert Flammang writes:
>>
>>Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
>>comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
>>pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.
>
>Not quite true. I don't have a problem with SOME unpleasant worlds having a
>larger population than SOME pleasant worlds. What I object to is all worlds,
>regardless of habitability, having the exact same population distribution.
>3% of them have 0-9 people, 7% of them have 10-99 people, etc.

This is probably not accurate... Earth-like worlds probably ought to have
some kind of bonus to population rolls.  However, there are a lot of
reasons why a nasty world might have a higher population than a 'perfect'
world.

>I also have a problem with pleasant worlds having NO population whatsoever.

Climate, hydrographics, etc... are only one part of a world.  Perhaps
the world has really, really dangerous predators.  Perhaps all the of
the animal and plant life on the planet is dangerous.  Perhaps the plant
life on the planet is totally inedible and edible crops are hard to
grow for some reason.  The few people there could be slowly expanding
the food supply.  Maybe the sunlight is a weird color which people
find unpleasant.  Myabe there's a lot of asteroid activity and folks
don't like getting rocks dropped on their heads.
>
>>I don't buy this assertion. If it were true, then it should be reflected
>>in real life here on earth. In other words, the island of Oahu should
>>have a higher population than the island of Manhattan (It doesn't). And
>>New Zealand should have a higher pop than Great Britain. And Wyoming
>>should have a higher pop than New Jersey. And so on ad nauseam.
>
>But it is reflected in real life here on Earth. There are more people
>living in areas with decent farmland than there are people living in
>mountains and in the arctic. If your assertation were correct then why
>isn't one 7th of the world's population living on the Antarctic
>continent?

Well, Antarctica is smaller than some of the other continents.  :)
Actually, there are a lot of other exampls of people living in less
pleasant places.  New York City has a population of around 18 million
and it's not a nice place... cold and snowy and crowded.  The whole
state of Colorado has a low population and it's a nice place.  People
go where jobs are a lot of the time...
>
>>In fact, pleasure is rarely the first factor in determining where people
>>live. The primary factors are usually economic and social.
>
>But that's exactly my point. If you have the choice of setting up a new
>colony on a world where you can breathe the air and grow your own food
>and one where you need expensive protection from the environment, which
>one would you choose?

Also, trade routes are important.  Availability of off-world supplies
could be important.  Protection by the Navy could also be an important
factor.  Also, you have to find a source of colonists... it could be
that people in the neighboring star systems are happy where they are
or can't move.
>
>And of course quality of life counts for _something_. You may prefer to
>live in a hell-hole if you can earn two or three times what you could
>earn in a pleasant place, but if the difference is only 10 or 20 % then
>you might well choose the less economic, but more pleasant, alternative.
>I certainly would.
>
>>2) What is the cost of living and how much is the real estate? Pleasant
>>worlds are going to cost more to live on (typically) because the land is
>>in demand  by people who can afford it. In a technologically advanced
>>civilization, hostile environs are not going to drive up the cost of
>>living as much as they do today. So places like Pittsburgh are going to
>>be cheaper to live in than places like Aspen or Key West.
>
>But only if someone else wants to live in Aspen. If the worlds are empty
>in the first place, why not choose the pleasant one?

As soon as the nice world is discovered, the wealthy will probably
move there first and buy up as much land as possible.  Some will live
there while others may be developers, building whole towns to get folks
to move.  Depending on who buys it, there may never be that many
people there.  The wealthy may all buy estates the size of a small
state.
>
>>3) Who lives there already and do they like me? Nice places almost
>>always have laws that restrict the number and kind of people who can
>>move there. New Zealand, Canada, and the US are all famous (imfamous?)
>>for being difficult to move to.
>
>Again, you need someone living there in the first place for this to be a
>factor. A pleasant world with populations in the millions is cool
>(provided there is an associated planet with an economy strong enough to
>build the navy you'd need to protect it) but pleasant worlds with
>populations in the tens are not. Such a world would be so valuable that
>you'd need to own several others personally in order to afford NOT to
>develop it. So a few Imperial reservations are OK, but definitely not
>too many.
>
>>So if you find that Traveller's population distributions don't make much
>>sense to you, I'd say that you might be working from faulty assumptions.
>
>My assumptions may or may not be faulty, but Traveller's assumptions
>definitely are. Any assumptions that makes the population distributions on
>Terran-norm worlds EXACTLY the same as on worlds with insidious atmospheres
>are faulty.

The easy solution is to not just roll on the tables but to make the
worlds up with some eye to what you want them to be like.  The tables
shouldn't be used to create worlds you plan on using as major worlds.
I think Traveller probably goes to far in making *everything* some
multiple of 6 so you can roll it... sometimes seems kind of artificial
sometimes.  (Hmm... ships are *all* limited to 6 g's?  But I want to
stick that heavy-cruiser's maneuver drive on my scout ship...)

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #578
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Traveller-digest         Saturday, 19 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 579

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         3. Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships
         4. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         5. Re: Where is everybody?
         6. Re: Hit location
         7. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         8. Awww  Thanks Everyone :-)
         9. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        10. Re: Where is everybody?
        11. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        12. Re: Hit location
        13. Re: Hit location
        14. Imperial Establishing Document
        15. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        16. Brad U's Chemical Lasers
        17. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        18. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        19. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
        20. Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:07:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A while back, we had quite a discussion about the Imperial Establishing
> Document/Warrant/whatever (I recall that several names for it were
> proposed).  As I recall, a couple of highly agreeable documents came out
> of that.
> 
> Unfortunately, I neglected to keep a copy of them.  If someone could
> email me a copy of the top two or three candidates (or point me to a web
> site where they're stored), I'd appreciate it greatly.

Whoa! I missed these too! Could anyone just repost?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:13:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> David Joseph Smart wrote:
> > Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
> > Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...
> 
> Well, what are we thinking....MR. ZHODANI SPY!

That I was a Zhodani spy, of course. Come, we need to discuss some of
your beliefs...

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:31:40 +0000
Subject: Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> After all, how much did the collapse of the Roman Empire affect
> the level of the oceans?

Depends on how much of it collapsed into the oceans themselves, as opposed to simply 
collapsing on land

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:34:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> 
> Amused to Death wrote:
> >
> > David Joseph Smart wrote:
> > > Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
> > > Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...
> >
> > Well, what are we thinking....MR. ZHODANI SPY!
> 
> That I was a Zhodani spy, of course. Come, we need to discuss some of
> your beliefs...

Wow, I feel really important. I've got both Solsec and the Tavrchedl after me!

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:36:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Where is everybody?

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> cries plaintively,

>Hey, where did everybody go?
>I know Joe is busy with his new duties, but I haven't seen any posts in a
>while from 
>several people that are usually on this list.  I still see Leonard, Amused to
>Death, 
>Andrew, and several others, but many are missing.

>Where is Glenn?

I haven't gone anywhere. Oh, you must mean Glenn Hopp. Or Glenn Close?

(The Other) Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hit location

Hello again,

Here's an improved version of a Hit Location Table I posted to TML a few
weeks ago. James Garriss pointed out some problems with my original,
corrected in this version (thanks for the help, Jim!). In the original, the
probability distribution was fairly even - that is, every region of the
body had an equal chance of being hit - which is not true to actual
battlefield injuries. Hits should tend to cluster in the torso, at least
for most attacks.

But a purely random distribution is still useful, especially for wounds
from explosives, zero-gravity accidents, or other random injury. Therefore,
this table allows for both distributions: Roll on the first column for most
attacks, the second for a more random hit. (Of course, other distributions
are possible; for instance, hits from long hand-weapons such as clubs,
cutlasses, and foils, will tend to cluster towards the upper and lower
extremes of the body, especially if the defender is also armed.)

I've also added an "incidental" hit: two sixes represent a hit to some item
worn or carried by the character - a belt buckle, a weapon, a pocket
computer, etc. Roll again for the location and select an item likely to be
carried in that area; thus an "upper torso" hit from behind might strike an
item in a backpack. The referee should then decide on the item's armor
value, if any, and from that determine if it deflects the hit, lowers the
damage dice, or has no effect. (It helps if the referee has required the
players to pre-assign locations for all items carried or worn.)

Also, the hit locations are now arranged roughly from the feet (65) up to
the head (11). This allows the referee to apply a DM to the location roll -
usually adding or subtracting from the first digit, or from the second
digit for a more subtle influence. This is useful if the defender's legs
are behind cover, or if he is being attacked from directly above, or any
situation which will tend to weight locations higher or lower on the body. 

Building on this, I've added a nifty new house rule for splitting skill
levels between "to hit" rolls and location rolls. (See bottom of post).

Do let me know if you plan to use the table in your game, or if you find
any errors in the system.

Hope you like,

Glenn
- ---------------------------

Hit Location Table

For every successful hit, roll two dice, pre-selecting one die as "tens"
and the second as "ones". Roll on the first column for most ranged attacks
(weighted towards the chest), on the second for more random injury (such as
from explosives). A Spectacular Success on a roll to hit allows the
attacking player to select the hit location from the table.

Then roll damage, reducing dice if location is armored.

If no stats are reduced to zero by the hit, see "Superficial" for any
secondary effects of the wound.

If 1 stat is reduced to 0, see "Minor" wound effect. Minor Wound effects
such as fractures (Frac) and impaired organs (Impd) are temporary and will
heal completely with proper medical attention.

If 2 stats are reduced to 0, see "Major" wound effect. Even with proper
medical attention, Major Wound effects can result in the character being
permanently impaired, depending on the Tech Level of the medical facility.

When rolling damage, any roll of two sixes is a Critical Hit, which is
counted as a Major Wound, even if no stats are reduced to 0.

Generally, effects are cumulative: if a Major Wound is received,
Superficial and Minor effects are also applied.

Generally, hits are received on the side nearest the attacker. When needed,
roll 1D for Right (1-3) or Left (3-6).

- ----------------------

                    Hit Location Table
Col.1: Most attacks
Col.2: Random hits

1. 2.    Location      Superficial     Minor       Major

66 66    incidental (roll again, select carried or worn item)
65 64-65 ankle/foot      Fall            Frac        Impd ankle/Amp
64 63    lower leg       Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
63 62    knee            Fall            Frac        Impd knee/Amp
62 61    upper leg       Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
61 56    upper leg       Fall            Frac        Artery 2p/r
56 55    hip/buttocks                    Frac        Impd hip
55 54    hip/buttocks                    Frac        Impd hip
54 53    groin                           Impd        Intl 1p/r
53 51-52 hand/wrist      Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
52 46    pelvis                          Frac        Impd
51 45    pelvis                          Frac        Spine
46 43-44 forearm/elbow   Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
45 42    lower abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
44 41    lower abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
43 36    upper abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
42 34-35 upper abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
41       upper abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
36 32-33 upper arm       Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
35 31    mid-torso                     Lung 1p/r     Spine
34 26    mid-torso                     Lung 1p/r     Artery 1p/r
33       mid-torso                     Lung 1p/r     Artery 1p/r
32 25    upper torso                     Frac        Artery 2p/r
31 24    upper torso                   Lung 1p/r     Heart 2p/r
26       upper torso                   Lung 1p/r     Heart 2p/r
25       upper torso                   Lung 1p/r     Heart 2p/r
24 23    shoulder        Drop Items      Frac        Impd/Amp
23 22    shoulder        Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
22 21    top of torso                    Frac        Artery 2p/r
21 16    top of torso                    Frac        Artery 2p/r
16       top of torso                  Throat 1p/r   Spine
15 15    neck                          Throat 1p/r   Spine
14 14    face/jaw        Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Impd     Throat 1p/r
13 13    face/eye        Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Impd     Brain
12 12    cranium/crown   Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Conc     Brain
11 11    cranium/ear     Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Conc     Brain 

#p/r = character receives additional points of damage per
        subsequent round, until medical attention received. 
        At referee's discretion, extra damage might cease before
        character dies.
Drop Items = might not be automatic.
Stun = Stunned characters cannot attack or move for 1 round,
        longer in the case of more serious wounds. Might require
        rest to recover fully. 
Fall = Might not be automatic (see below). Might incur extra damage,
        usually 1pt, depending on situation.
Frac = Fracture. Referee may decide on specific bone fractured.
Impd = Impaired function (see above).
Conc = Brain concussion. Either mild, causing headaches, or
        serious, causing migraines, dizzyness, seizures, etc.
        Severity increases if character loses consciousness.
Lung = Lung puncture, causes additional damage. Usually
        accompanied by fractured ribs.
Throat = Throat wound impairs breathing, causes additional damage.
Intl  = Internal organ hit, causes additional damage.
Brain = At referee's discretion, effects may include partial
        or total paralysis, coma, speech impairment, blindness,
        personality change, seizures, etc, depending on amount of
        damage taken and swiftness of medical attention. 
Spine = Almost always causes paralysis. Extent and severity to
        be determined by referee.
Heart = Heart injury causes additional damage. Usually
        accompanied by fractured ribs.
Artery = Major artery hit, causes additional damage.
Amp   = Potential amputation; if large amount of damage received in
        a single hit, amputation might occur, at referee's 
        discretion. If so, character receives further 1 to 3 pts 
        damage per subsequent round until medical attention 
        received. Energy weapon hits do not incur extra damage,
        as the wound is automatically cauterized.

Referee should use judgement at all times to determine specific
location/effects. For instance, a Superficial Wound to "cranium/ear" is
clearly a glancing hit close to the ear, whereas a Minor or Major Wound
could mean skull fracture, impaired hearing, or concussion, perhaps all
three, depending on the amount of damage received.

If the "Stopping Power" house rule is being used, head and leg hits incur a
negative DM when charcter rolls to remain standing. Any roll of two ones is
a Spectacular "Success" - in which case the character not only remains
standing, but is not immediately aware that he or she has been hit,
regardless of the amount of injury sustained!

For hits from automatic fire, shotguns, or explosives, it is generally
assumed that the rolled hit location is for the most serious of a group of
wounds (which are not rolled).
 
Separate Hit Location tables should be prepared for each non-humanoid
sophont species.

============================

House rule: Skill Assignment

A character may choose to divide combat skill levels between the roll to
hit and the location roll, instead of applying all levels to the roll to
hit. Thus, a PC with Pistol 4 may choose to have a +2 DM to hit, and a +2
or -2 DM to the first digit of the location roll, raising it to aim high
(for more critical locations) or lowering it to aim low (to knock down, or
to mimimize damage). This rule does not necessarily replace the T4 "Aimed
Shots" rule.



------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:39:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

	For a moment I thought those rumours of a game were all
jump-induced hallucinations - but that wasn't canon. :)

	Spies on other hand, I and Penny the Happy PGMP can deal
with. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:04:24 -0700
Subject: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-)

Thanks guys and gals.

        I appreciate your responses to my cry for help.  At least I now I'm
not going CRAZY!!.   

A few ideas and questions>>>

I'm currently developing a campaign however a large part of it is going to
involve a new minor alien species.  If anyone out there likes to think up
new species I would appreciate help fleshing it out (off the list).  You
see, I have the basic idea for the aliens but being the GM I want to make
sure I create a balanced alien (not to powerful or it would conflit with the
T4 storyline).  
- ----
I'm working on incorporating Combat Enviroment Suits and Chemical Cartridge
Lasers into my T4 campaign (in the works).  However I've run into a few
problems.  First if anyone has access to FFS perhaps you can tell me the
answer to the following.  Did Chemical lasers work of of individual
cartridges (where each cartridge held enough charge for one blast) thus
rounds.  Or was it one cartridge.  In other words was the PP a Chemical
Battery or Chemical Bullets.  
- -----
Another question

As an alternative technology has anyone thought of power crystals?

I believe modern day watch quartz crystals generate something like 5 mV of
power.  Well If Earth is currently tech 8 by tech 12 a lot of advances could
have taken place in the studies of the piazo effect (pressure on crystols
creating voltage).  The danger threshold in killing someone is around 30 V
and .005 mA.  The ability that is used in traveller to compress oxygen could
be used on some future 'quartz' crystals to generate adequate voltage for
personal energy weapons or say guass weapons.  The big bonus here is that
the power supply would last longer than your average chemical cartridge (I
think).  Any thoughts.
- -----
PS.
        I was working with someone one the list on a "hush-hush" project.
Unfortunaly I've lost this individual's website and e-mail address.  If this
person recognizes my name could they e-mail me.  I have some results for
them.  Thanks.

(Cryptic or what?)


||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:32:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> Okay, Mr. "Smart" (if that really is your name), you're on our list now, too.
> 
> Your attempt at misdirection was ineffective.  We do not care whether you
> are Imperialist, Zhodani, Hiver, or what-have-you.  All we know is, if
> you aren't with us, you are against us.
> 
> And if you are against us, you will be tracked, found, and dealt with.
> Permanently.
> 
> Citizens:  If you see a being answering to the description you see on
> your terminal now, contact SolSec immediately!

How nice! Another grenade pin for my collection. (loud pop of displaced
air filling the place where I stood)

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:58:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Where is everybody?

Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> cries plaintively,
> 
> >Hey, where did everybody go?
> >I know Joe is busy with his new duties, but I haven't seen any posts in a
> >while from
> >several people that are usually on this list.  I still see Leonard, Amused to
> >Death,
> >Andrew, and several others, but many are missing.
> 
> >Where is Glenn?
> 
> I haven't gone anywhere. Oh, you must mean Glenn Hopp. Or Glenn Close?
> 
> (The Other) Glenn

Rather ironically, my real name is Glenn as well

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:51:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On 19 Oct 96 at 16:54, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Charlie wrote:
> 
> >  I am so mad. I note in  the above Mail that You too know about
> >  the Chip
> > version of T4. I swear I paid in advance for My copies T4 Chips
> > both Mac and PC Versions. Where are My Copies? 
> 
> Had me going for a second there Charlie. :)
> 

As for me, I'm just trying to figure where MM would sign them...

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
Traveller referee since 1978, Official USENet 
spokesperson for Imperium Games
- ---------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:01:52 +0000
Subject: Re: Hit location

According to my research, the following are accurate (within 5% each area). These are 
based on wounds from WWI to present

Ranged
1 Head
2 Arms, 1-3 left/4-6 right
3 Chest
4 Gut
5 Left Leg
6 Right Leg

Melee
1 Head
2 Left Arm
3 Right Arm
4 Chest
5 Gut
6 Legs, 1-3 left/4-6 right

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:58:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Hit location

Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> Hello again,
> 
> Here's an improved version of a Hit Location Table I posted to TML a few
> weeks ago. <massive snip>
> Do let me know if you plan to use the table in your game, or if you find
> any errors in the system.
> 
> Hope you like,
> 
> Glenn

Do I like? Is the Pacific Ocean moist? Geez, Glenn, excellent work! I'm
definitely holding on to this one and forwarding it personally to the
ref of the campaign I'm currently in (hear that, Steve?)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:12:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Imperial Establishing Document

Hi folks,

Bruce Johnson forwarded a copy of the establishing documents to me, and I 
forwarded them to David Smart, since he also wanted them.  It's huge, so 
I didn't want to put it on the list without knowing how many people 
wanted it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:21:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> How nice! Another grenade pin for my collection. (loud pop of displaced
> air filling the place where I stood)

[John, a Guard outside of munitions storage]: Hey, Jim, did you hear that?

Jim:  Check it out, I'll call SolSec command.

John:  Okay.  [Readies rifle, slowly and carefully opens door...]

* BOOM! *


:)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:22:01 -0700
Subject: Brad U's Chemical Lasers

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> Did Chemical lasers work of of individual
> cartridges (where each cartridge held enough charge for one blast) thus
> rounds.  Or was it one cartridge.  In other words was the PP a Chemical
> Battery or Chemical Bullets.

Per FF&S, "Powering a laser by chemical laser cartridge (CLC) allows the
laser to function in the fashion of a conventional firearm or artillery
piece, in that each shot consumes an ammunition cartridge, whose empty 
casing is then ejected allowing the laser to be reloaded and fired
again."

Sounds like a Chemical Bullet to me. Keep in mind that FF&S allowed
lasers to have their firing pulses varied, effectively exchanging a
higher number of pulses (and a greater chance to hit) for a reduction in
damage per pulse.

> Another question
> 
> As an alternative technology has anyone thought of power crystals?
>
> I believe modern day watch quartz crystals generate something like 5 mV of
> power.  Well If Earth is currently tech 8 by tech 12 a lot of advances could
> have taken place in the studies of the piazo effect (pressure on crystols
> creating voltage).  The danger threshold in killing someone is around 30 V
> and .005 mA.  The ability that is used in traveller to compress oxygen could
> be used on some future 'quartz' crystals to generate adequate voltage for
> personal energy weapons or say guass weapons.  The big bonus here is that
> the power supply would last longer than your average chemical cartridge (I
> think).  Any thoughts.

I believe that's "piezo" as in piezoelectricity. (nit,nit) Regardless,
this is one I don't think anyone, including GDW and DGP, thought of. The
closest anyone's come was the description in FF&S of cold fusion as
"piezo-nuclear fusion".  Could gravitic fields and ultra-high pressure
tanks be used to enhance this effect? If so, to what level and what are
the effects of a sudden release of pressure?

------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:26:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

pierre-louis constantin wrote:
> 
>         For a moment I thought those rumours of a game were all
> jump-induced hallucinations - but that wasn't canon. :)
> 
> (...)

I am curious to know if anyone in Canada has received the hardcover. 
How did the people at IG mail them, in reverse alphabetical order?...
Boy am I happy I don't live in Albania...

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:17:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On 19 Oct 96 at 16:54, Joe Walsh spewed:
> 
> > On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Charlie wrote:
> >
> > >  I am so mad. I note in  the above Mail that You too know about
> > >  the Chip
> > > version of T4. I swear I paid in advance for My copies T4 Chips
> > > both Mac and PC Versions. Where are My Copies?
> >
> > Had me going for a second there Charlie. :)
> >
> 
> As for me, I'm just trying to figure where MM would sign them...

He could sign the IC mask and his name would be etched into the very silicon of the chip 
. . . .

;)

> Official USENet
> spokesperson for Imperium Games

This is a good thing, Stu!
> ---------------------------------------------------

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:55:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> > ______________________________________________________________________________
> >          ....Official Solomani Truth Specialist....
> > Motto: "If you don't hear it from us, don't believe it!"
> 
> Well, I also have a copy but I'm neithert an Imperialist nor a Solomani.
> Ah, I _know_ what you're thinking...

Damned Hivers . . . . 

History is a lie.

We're all just a Hiver manipulation!

- --Rich "I'm a man, not starfish bait" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:15:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-)

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> Thanks guys and gals.
> 
>         I appreciate your responses to my cry for help.  At least I now I'm
> not going CRAZY!!.
> 
> A few ideas and questions>>>
> 
> I'm currently developing a campaign however a large part of it is going to
> involve a new minor alien species.  If anyone out there likes to think up
> new species I would appreciate help fleshing it out (off the list).  You
> see, I have the basic idea for the aliens but being the GM I want to make
> sure I create a balanced alien (not to powerful or it would conflit with the
> T4 storyline).

I like to use variant humans for my minor alien races. 

> ----
> I'm working on incorporating Combat Enviroment Suits and Chemical Cartridge
> Lasers into my T4 campaign (in the works).  However I've run into a few
> problems.  First if anyone has access to FFS perhaps you can tell me the
> answer to the following.  Did Chemical lasers work of of individual
> cartridges (where each cartridge held enough charge for one blast) thus
> rounds.  Or was it one cartridge.  In other words was the PP a Chemical
> Battery or Chemical Bullets.

A chem laser cartridge has X amount of energy; it is the weapon that determines just how 
the energy is split into pulses. Call it a chemical battery.

> -----
> Another question
> 
> As an alternative technology has anyone thought of power crystals?
> 
> I believe modern day watch quartz crystals generate something like 5 mV of
> power.  Well If Earth is currently tech 8 by tech 12 a lot of advances could
> have taken place in the studies of the piazo effect (pressure on crystols
> creating voltage).  The danger threshold in killing someone is around 30 V
> and .005 mA.  

In my military electronics class, they told us that it was _current_ that killed. 30KV 
at 5 mA _usually_ won't kill, but 30V at 100 mA will. The lethal threshold depends upon 
a lot of factors; the resistance of the human body is wildly variable.

> The ability that is used in traveller to compress oxygen could
> be used on some future 'quartz' crystals to generate adequate voltage for
> personal energy weapons or say guass weapons.  The big bonus here is that
> the power supply would last longer than your average chemical cartridge (I
> think).  Any thoughts.

Suppose that a synthetic crystal could generate useful pizeo voltages (say 30 V (rms) at 
1500 mA) from ordinary human movement. You wear the crystal array on your belt and the 
array generates the electrical power to drive a homopole generator to drive that DEI 
laser or gauss gun ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #579
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 20 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 580

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         3. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #576
         5. Air Raft on TV
         6. Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!
         7. Re: Starship Economics Problems
         8. We have no *Canon* today!
         9. Licensed material: Canon or not?
        10. Re: Starship economics - replenishment
        11. Re: Starship missiles
        12. Re: We have no *Canon* today!
        13. Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)
        14. Re: Traveller Costuming
        15. Re: Traveller Costuming
        16. Re: Traveller Costuming
        17. Re: Blank Worlds Vote
        18. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage
        19. Re: Not quite on topic, but...
        20. Re: Those Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:21:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> Bruce Johnson forwarded a copy of the establishing documents to me, and I
> forwarded them to David Smart, since he also wanted them.  It's huge, so
> I didn't want to put it on the list without knowing how many people
> wanted it.

I'd like to see it, too . . . . if one of you Travellers Intrepid with a Web site decide 
to post it to your site -- prob solved!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:02:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> > As for me, I'm just trying to figure where MM would sign them...
> 
> He could sign the IC mask and his name would be etched into the very silicon of the chip 
> . . . .
> 
> ;)

. . . until Virus takes the chip over and re-writes it, that is . . . [G]


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:08:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> I'd like to see it, too . . . . if one of you Travellers Intrepid with a Web site decide 
> to post it to your site -- prob solved!

I emailed it to Peter Miller.  I think he's going to contact the 
individuals who wrote them, and get their permission to put it on his 
site.

Then again, maybe he'll tell me to go fly a kite. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:49:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #576

> > Just let me know.  Is this lack of response intentional or did nobody have
> > anything to say.
> 
> My lack of response was due to not having anything intelligent to add
> re: your posts. As for blackballing, if anyone finds your emails
> objectionable in any way, all they have to do is delete them from their
> TML download. Keep on posting, Ace; I, for one, enjoy your (and
> everybody else's) comments and thoughts. Creative discussions and info
> transfer is what the Web is all about.

I have to second this - I often say nothing simply because I have
nothing intelligent to say and posting "Yeah!" seems a bit trite.
It's ironic that only the ill-conceived or really controversial
posts ever get discussed. All the well thought out ones that contain
noting to argue about are met with silence for applause (??).

Anyways, it happens to everyone. Happens to me a lot.

Ethan

------------------------------

From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:55:52 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Air Raft on TV

So, here I was watching The Tick this morning (a repeat, annoyingly enough) 
when I noticed that the "guest" superheroes, the Decency Squad (a 1950s 
superhero team) were flying something that looked suspiciously like the air 
raft from the Traveller Book (the original hardback, not T4).

I think I'm starting to see Traveller everywhere.  This might be a bad sign.

- --------------------
Steve Charlton
scharlto@rtd.com
"Let me go, Captain!  I'm filled with Tiny Men!"
Doll Man, from The Tick



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:26:21 PST
Subject: Re: Missiles - Overwhelm the Targets!

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Heck, consider what happens if put *lots* of projectile weapons of
>> some sort on the hull. Sure, they take forever to get anywhere. On
>> the other hand, who needs sand if you have a couple hundred .50 cal
>> machineguns firing at an approaching missile? :-)

> The general pref to kill missiles is 20mm (they are fast  moving
> targets with really good sloping on their armour

On the other hand, the relative velocities are a lot higher here. We
are *not* going to get shots "glancing off". Any impact will result in
an explosion as the bullet and a good chunk of armor vaporize each other.

>> And to be silly, just how many shots *does* an 18" naval rifle get
>> in a 30 minute turn?

> Don't know, but the New Jersey can fire each of her 16" guns once
> every 60-90 seconds with the aid of elevators

So a "low tech" orbital fort could use them as part of the weaponry. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:57:34 PST
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems

In mail you write:

>>> To take this to an extreme, maybe it should be Cr1.43 per kg of live 
>>> creature per day -or- Cr0.06 per kg per hour!?
>
>
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
>> Life support needs do *not* scale linearly with size, or with mass.
>
> Okay then, how might it scale?

Well, to start with, oxygen requirements depend on what partial
pressure of oxygen the being is used to. Humans need 3 psi of oxygen,
and use a certain amount of O2 per minute depending on metabolic rate
and body mass. 

But other creatures on earth require different amounts of O2 per kilo
of body mass. And creatures from other worlds may have other rates of
usage. 

Rate at which O2 can be taken from the air depends on the surface area
of the lungs. Which is why our lungs are so convoluted.

I think that the critical factors *may* be body mass *and* metabolic
rate. It's that last one that's going to drive us nuts.

> It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power
> plant, and the wear and tear on the life support system would be
> covered by the ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit
> the food & water seems like it should cost less than Cr140. Also,
> wouldn't the life suport system be using the ship's power plant for
> its power requirements as well? Using a figure of Cr1000 per week for
> the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?

You forget that air circulation as well as heating and cooling use
non-trivial amounts of power. Also, you are paying for water
*purification* and waste disposal/treatment. And then we get to air....

Depending on how you go about it air supply or recycling could have
costs that vary all over the place.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:08:46 +1000
Subject: We have no *Canon* today!

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 17:10 BST-1
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #575
> 
> 
> I count any licensed product - the DGP stuff, for example - as canon.
> 
Hmm. So Jump Missile Message drones (in a licensed product) *are* canon?
And using Black Globes/Capacitors to power Jumps (from "High Guard") *are*
canon? And chemical lasers (from TNE/FF&S) *are* canon? And *both* HePlaR
*and* Thruster Plates, despite being mutually exclusive in TNE, are
"canon" ... as are the one year power supply for thruster plates *and* the
30/90 power supply (CTrav and MTrav).

Seems to me the "canon" is a load of old cobblers. It's always been
whatever has been convenient for the designers, rather than what makes
sense based on what has been previously published. It seems that even if
it directly and completely contradicts everything on the matter that has
gone before said designers give not one whit of a good goddamn *if* it
suits their purposes. Effectively, there *is* no canon - except what Marc
Miller and the designers at Imperium Games decide there is - and their
decisions *automatically* supercede anything that went before.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:28:22 -0400
Subject: Licensed material: Canon or not?

<< I count any licensed product - the DGP stuff, for example - as canon. >>

  You shouldn't. While a company may license another company to produce
products "for use with" their game, it is not necessarily "official," or as
some of you put it, "canon." For instance, we have a license from Hero Games
to produce material for use with the Hero System (Champions, Fantasy Hero,
etc.), but our material is not considered "official" by Hero Games. It's more
like "optional." ;)

  By the same token, Marc Miller has told me that our Traveller material will
not be official. Well, not automatically. The good news is that Marc told me
that since he has to review any and all material we intend to publish, he
could very well give it that FarFuture seal of approval and designate it
"official Traveller material." Now that would certainly be a compliment, IMO.

  In any case, I digress. Not all licensed material should be considered
canon.

  Mark Arsenault
  Gold Rush Games

------------------------------

From: Michael Nutt <misha@crossrds.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:25:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship economics - replenishment

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:

>David Blustein writes:
>>
>>Phillip McGregor, Leonard Erikson, and Guy Garnett have got me
>>wondering what those credits really buy!
>> 
>>It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power
>>plant, and the wear and tear on the life support system would be
>>covered by the ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit
>>the food & water seems like it should cost less than Cr140. Also,
>>wouldn't the life suport system be using the ship's power plant for
>>its power requirements as well? Using a figure of Cr1000 per week for
>>the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?
>> 
>>Now I'm really baffled...
>
>Right! What do you tell a player who says that his character has counted
>out the Cr. 20,000 for this fortnight's overhead and asks: "Now, who do
>I pay the money to, and what does he give me in return?"

Well, what *I* tell them is, "Make the check out to 'Starport Authority,
Maintenance Division' ", and once they do, a cargo lifter pulls up to their
docking berth and several replenishment techs come aboard, bringing aboard
all your new food supplies, changing out your air filters (if you only
change them at annual maintenance, I hope you like that "locker-room
fragrance"), replenishing your supplies of essentials for the lifesystem,
getting rid of the assorted crud you've filtered out of the biological
recyclers and don't particularly want to have around, performing routine
maintenance chores and adjustments, stocking you up on neat stuff like soap
and laundry detergents and cleansers (you *better* clean the 'fresher in
those High Passage cabins, or you'll never get another repeat passenger!),
performing cleaning chores that you wouldn't be able to do with only onboard
equipment, or with passengers onboard...

You're going to have food that goes bad, and needs to be replaced, other
fungibles that need restock, and minor maintenance that just can't wait, and
that a regular commercial ship wouldn't be able to do from its own
resources. Plus, you want to have lots of *variety* in a lot of these
things, to account for different tastes.

Of course, if you really *want* to skimp on this amount...     :)


"Bologna sandwiches AGAIN???? Mr. Purser, I'd like a word with you..."

"This cabin smells funny. What do you mean, 'that's from the Aslan who
stayed here last trip'?"

"Um, Mr. Purser, my 'fresher's out of toilet paper... What do you mean,
'Hold it until we make landfall'??? I don't *think* so!!!"

"For our treasured passengers, the steward has put out a fresh snack tray of
cheez-doodles..."

"If I have to watch those same three holovids *again*, I'm going to go
berserk... can't we get some new ones at our next landfall?"



Michael


------------------------------

From: Michael Nutt <misha@crossrds.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:25:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship missiles

sam thomas wrote:

> (someone I don't have an attribution for) wrote:

>>Dave Strebe wrote:

>>>Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets?
>>> What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?
>>
>>I've always thought that TL8 launching mechanisms were the epitome of
>>launching mechanisms simply because there wasn't any need to improve
>>beyond them. All that's necessary (IMO) is a link to arm/program the
>>sucker and something to kick it out the launch tube (assuming the
>>missile doesn't launch itself). Look at the Terrier missile launcher
>>hardware on the U.S. Ticonderoga-class missile cruiser. Of course, not
>>being anywhere close to an expert on missile launchers and not having
>>spent even a second in the Navy, I could be all wrong.
>>
>Sorry to nikpick, the Ticonderoga has a VLS missile lauching systems.
>Terrier missiles have not been much in use since the introduction of the
>Standard 1 and 2 missiles. Unless you meant the Mk 26 system that the
>Khomeni Class use. Yes you can improve the launching systems at higher tech
>levels. A good example would be the Talos launcher verrsus the Mk 26. Vast
>improvements were incorperated ignoring size differences in missiles.

<grin> Well, to nitpick your nitpick, I think the Ticonderoga, as well as a
few of the other very first Aegis cruisers didn't have the VLS installed...
but the vast majority of the class *do*, as do all the Arleigh Burkes.

Still.... is this a reflection of an advance in technology, and one great
enough to warrant a tech level increase, or is it just more efficient design
of the same tech level? And would such improvements be significant enough to
warrant the rules fiddling necessary to reflect them? If the major
limitation in firing a missile is acquiring an adequate targeting lockon,
will shaving 10 seconds or so off the reload time make any difference? Most
of my perspective on this comes from a CT perspective, so I don't know what
changes FF&S made, but will any average user pack enough missiles that a
fractional rate-of-fire increase affects the end result?


Michael


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:31:01 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: We have no *Canon* today!

> Seems to me the "canon" is a load of old cobblers. It's always been
> whatever has been convenient for the designers, rather than what makes
> sense based on what has been previously published. It seems that even if
> it directly and completely contradicts everything on the matter that has
> gone before said designers give not one whit of a good goddamn *if* it
> suits their purposes. Effectively, there *is* no canon - except what Marc
> Miller and the designers at Imperium Games decide there is - and their
> decisions *automatically* supercede anything that went before.

I think there is another way to look at canon in traveller.  You are
right about it changing with the weather in terms of rules.  I think
it is better to look at what *hasn't* changed.  Anything that stayed
the same is "real" canon.  Some things stayed the same in spite of
rules to the contrary.  FFS wiped out all space combat canon.  All
of it.  But all the TNE published ships looked like CT ships, even
though they were stupid designs in FFS (without fixes).  So the
designers made the ships have the right feel in spite of their own
new rules for how to make them!  That's why so many flaws never got
found in FFS/BL, et al.  The test ships were in the spirit of the
canon, but the rules for making them weren't.

I agree though that there is a lot of room for slop in our work
since the canon is all over the place.  The trick is to stay in the
spirit of things, which most of us seem to implicitly agree on.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: jbucsek@bigfoot.com (John Buscek)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:36:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

> 
>> I always thought that Double Occupancy _meant_ hot bunking, so one
>> Large Stateroom would accommodate One Passenger, One Crew, or Two
>> Crew and two Small Staterooms would accommodate Zero Passengers, Two
>> Crew, or Four Crew (all in 4 tons of ship tonnage).
>
>Actually, the reason I was doing the "research" was because I was writing
>down some thoughts on exactly what sort of layout and facilities you could
>expect in a standard Cabin when in use for High or Middle Passage ... and
>I have some ideas of layout as a result. Suffice it to say that, if you
>assume foldaway beds (like those in Pullman cabins on RRs), then there's
>plenty of room for two!
>
>
I know this is a little late for this thread but my expience with living in
a "small" room is as follows.  Check out the living conditions on the
various retired warships displayed around the US.  Drive a tractor-trailer
(or check out one of the nicer big bunk trucks and you'll be surprised at
what you can fit into such a small space. And finally look at a cabin
cruiser at your local boat dealer, Any of those will give you a good idea at
what to expect for accomodations in my opinion.  I always thought a starship
stateroom was small until I lived in a truck for a few years!
John Bucsek          |  Owner of Orphan Computers (TRS-80 / Amiga)
jbucsek@bigfoot.com  |  One time long-haul truck driver
gambrinus@rosey.com  |  Cancer survivor and happy to now live in the pacific NW!

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:33:18 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>Believe it or not, *some* branch of the US military has a unit patch
>>that is a black "sunburst" on an olive drab background. But it's only a
>>half circle.
>
> The 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized), California National Guard, has a
> patch that is a gold sunburst on a blue diamond.  The half-sun patch Leonard
> mentions is a WWII unit and might be difficult to find.

Well, a friend has a stack of them... :-)

> Check in your yellow pages under embroidery and you'll find many shops that
> will custom-make patches for you, some will even work off artwork on disk.
> This isn't cheap, but if you are a costumer and looking for a costume that
> will stand up to close scrutiny, this is the route to take.

Being of a rather sedentary lifestyle, I want details on a uniform for
an X-Boat pilot. Like me, they'd tend to be under-excercised. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:52:31 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> For an alternate idea, get a book of German uniforms during WWII.. they may
>> have been evil, but boy could they dress!  The SS in particular had smart
>> looking uniforms, and you might get alternate ideas about decorations.
 
> This relates to Adams gaming law #2:
> The good guys always win, but the bad guys have the better uniforms

A friend collects German WWII stuff. We once got quite a shock when he
got an SS Major's uniform and it turned out to fit a mutual friend as
if it had been tailored for him!

After putting up *lots* of "collateral" he got to wear it to a
Halloween party. This majorly freaked people. You see, he's a cop.... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:41:54 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

In mail you write:

> You also want to avoid significant ribbons from any other military.  As 
> other TML'ers have mentioned, getting caught with a Silver Star might buy 
> you some trouble.  If you've got access to a precedence chart, you'll 
> want to refer to it in order to select the least significant ribbons.

Yeah, the equivalent of the "good conduct medal" is probably pretty
safe. 

One other "safe" source of medals are the "political" ones from the
USSR and "Eastern block". There are a *lot* of medals there that tended
to get handed out for being a good Party member, or just "in favor".
Even so, stay away from that simple gold star on a red ribbon. The
folks who *earned* that one rank right up there with the CMoH.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:07:28 PST
Subject: Re: Blank Worlds Vote

In mail you write:

> The possible options are:
>
> 1. Complete details on every world in the Imperium.
>
> 2. Complete details on some worlds, others limited to UWPs (but may be 
> detailed later).
>
> 3. Complete details on some worlds, others limited to UWPs (and will not 
> be detailed later).
>
> 4. Complete details on some worlds, others left blank (and will not be 
> detailed later).
>
> 5. UWPs for some worlds, others left blank (and will not be detailed 
> later).
>
> 6. No official data published.

One *major* detail that's overlooked in the above. What *scale* is this
happening on? Are we talking individual worlds, sub-sectors, or
sectors? At the sector or subsector level, it's great, because it gives
a ref an area he can use for his own stuff without getting it stomped
by official stuff. And as long as the areas are placed carefully, folks
that don't want to detail things on their own can just avoid it.
Players *can* be told "there's no official info for those areas, some
we aren't going to play there". And most will understand and stick to
the areas you have info on.

Individual worlds on the other hand would be a major pain for everybody.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:58:23 PST
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: Misjumps and Fuel Usage

In mail you write:

> To survive a misjump into empty space, you've almost _got_ to have
> enough low berths for everyone, as well as a working sublight drive
> on the starship, a working power plant, and enough fuel remaining in
> the tanks to run the power plant at full power for a three to six
> months, plus minimum power (enough to run the low berths, computer,
> and nothing else) for a few decades.

Not really. Interstellar space isn't *that* empty. With a bit of work
and a good set of sensors, you should be able to find *something*
within range. And even a *small* "comet" is more unrefined fuel than
your ship could use in years. 

Of course, if your manuever drive is shot, you've had it. But if
it's working, you can likely rendezvous with some sort of iceball. 

>> I'm asking because Classic and Mega both use a certain amout of fuel per
>> time period for there manuever drives.
>
> In Classic Traveller, it was stated that the amount of fuel required was
> "negligable", and I don't recall that anyone ever bothered to keep track of
> it.

They actually gave a figure somewhere. They said something along the
lines of "assume a ship has enough fuel for a month without refueling"
or something like that.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:13:35 PST
Subject: Re: Not quite on topic, but...

In mail you write:

> Anybody out there have a complete set of the following RPGs?
>
> Star Ace (Pacesetter)
> Universe (SPI)
> Space Opera (FGU)
> GURPS Space/SF-oriented modules
> Star Wars (WEG)
>
> I'm trying to build a collection of space oriented SF RPGs.

Are you overlooking the one TSR used to have on purpose?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:18:02 PST
Subject: Re: Those Names

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Dhivael wrote:
>
>> I don't think it's all that unrealistic to have these names - after all,
>> how many New World cities are named after Old World cities? Harlem is in
>
> Good point.  Yet another reason not to mind (or to enjoy!) having stars 
> named after Terran cities...

Consider the number of stars in "known space" (ie the old map of
"everything"). Now consider the number of planets, moons, asteroids,
etc in all those star systems. 

Folks will run out of "fancy" names fast. Heck, check the IAU
(International Astronomical Union) rules for naming. It's at the point
where if you discover an asteriod, you can name it after your cat as
long as the name doesn't conflict...


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #580
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 20 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 581

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Agenda?!?!?!?
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (detecting things at distances)
         3. Re: 3,2,1...0
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #578
         5. Metator
         6. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         7. Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
         8. Re: Starship economics
         9. World populations
        10. Re: Signed Hardcovers
        11. RE: Signed Hardcovers 
        12. Re: Power Crystals
        13. Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!
        14. Re: Starship economics & Misjumps
        15. Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:23:18 PST
Subject: Re: Agenda?!?!?!?

In mail you write:

> Anders Backman wrote:
>> 
>> >> A player who has noticed an error on the GM's part regarding game 
> mechanics
>> >
>> >...and knows the exact source and page number to back it up.

Sounds like me. When I'm "in practice" (ie been using the material
regularly) I *can* do that sort of thing all the time.

>> No problem as the GM is always right per definition and who uses published
>> rules anyway?
>
> You don't know my players.
> Bulldogs would be impressed by their tenacity.
> And I do not want to seem to be arbitrary, but at times they are a RRPITA

But this is not me. I'll point out things "Did you forget about this?",
but if the GM says it doesn't apply, I'll grit my teeth and go along
with it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:37:08 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #530 (detecting things at distances)

In mail you write:

> There are (more questionable) NASA proposals to use seperated-spacecraft
> interferometers to *image* features on the surface of earthlike planets
> around nearby stars; I personally think it's ludicrous for the next 20-30
> years, but at TL12 it's probably not hard - most universities on Sylea
> probably have access to a multispacecraft interferometric telescope setup
> that could resolve features at the 10-km level at ranges of a few parsecs.
>
> (Someday, I'm going to write a JTAS article on this.)

Please do!

Also, what sort of thing would you guess a typical *amateur* astronomer
is capable of at various tech levels? I'm thinking of not just the guys
on Earth-like planets, but also those on space colonies or living on
vacuum worlds or asteroid belts. 

Besides things like a Dobsonian scope on a vacuum world, I'm wondering
about stuff like spin stabilized liquid metal mirrors, thin film
mirrors, and *large* collectors. A 16 year old belter kid at TL-12
ought to have gear that current astronomers would *kill* for. Like
multi-spectral interferometers with light-second or better baselines.

Or picture the kid that has refurbished the one-km aluminized film
mirror from a defunct asteroid smelting operation and is using it as a
telescope! Sure, it's not smooth enough to be any good at optical
wavelengths, but at longwave IR down into the microwave region, it'd
work great. 

And I can see networks of amateurs doing parallax measurements with
baselines of whatever the orbital diameter of the belt is, or in
systems with well established colonies in the outer orbits, even
*longer* baselines. Think of what amatuers could do if some of them
*lived* in the leading and trailing Trojans here in the Solar system!
What's that? A 10 AU baseline?

Of course, their efforst would be dwarfed by things like the Imperial
Survey baselines I described a few months back. Parsec long baselines
for parallax and maybe even some sort of interferometry if the tech is
up to it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:17:34 PST
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In mail you write:

> Sure, you're still dealing with the one-week travel time, but I've not 
> seen anywhere (not even in the "Starship Operator's Manual") where the 
> MINIMUM length of a jump is defined.  This brings up a nasty idea that 
> one of the players in my campaign brought up:  Where does it say that you 
> can't jump NOWHERE?  He wanted to give pursuers the idea that he'd given 
> them the slip by jumping out-system, only to reappear a week later and 
> continue whatever silliness had gotten him into trouble in the first place.

There are several ways of dealing with this. One would be to say that
your realspace vector has some bearing on your jumpspace vector. But
that gets *real* ugly.

So let's work up some pseudo-science.

First off, I'd say that unless you do something special, you have the
same velocity vector upon emerging from jump as when entering. This
does the least violence to normal phsyics. On the downside, it means
that you have to deal with the velocity difference between the system
you left and the system you are entering. 

Now, the question is *if* you can somehow use the jump to change this
vector. If yes, we need to restrict it, otherwise it could be used to
jump into a system at a *very* high velocity for the purpose of dumping
deadfall ordanance on a planet. Not good.

Second, is the question of whether or not sensor readings of a jumping
ship (or an arriving one) will give you some idea of the direction or
distance of the jump.

I think that we could do just leave it at "you keep the vector, and
can't change it". This would mean that most ships would take a course
that gave them a favorable vector for their destination by the time
they reached the required distance for jumping. Thus ships destined for
a specfic system would tend to have a predictable heading. 

Of course it's a *bit* more complex than this. You can do some matching
at the other end, but that uses more fuel. And the velocities depend on
not only the relative velocities of the stars, but of the planets you
are moving between.

It *does* allow for lots of fun with "zero" jumps, and short jumps.
Including the old trick from H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking" where you
are supposedly trading with a star system several parsecs off, but
actually are just jumping to the outer system where you have a hidden
base. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: mark james wilkin <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:51:30 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #578

> 
> >Now it's true that there may be old records. But they are only adequate
> >for size, type and number of planets. Atmosphere and hydro are things
> >that *can* be affected by the "fall of civilization" and similar
> >events, even at thse tech levels.
> 
> OK, you got me. How could the fall of civilization affect hydrographic
> percentages and Gas Giants? Please explain.
Ok mini ice age starts, terraforming efforts collapse or succeed, the 
afformention mass orbital bombardment (with relativistic rocks:-).For 
atmopshere taints or others, perhaps the industrial pollution has 
stoppede due to collapse of industrial inforstucture. Or the natives have 
cleaned up their act+invented new anti pollution tecnologies. Volcanos 
could have stopped outgassing. In fact this is what happened in the TNE
World Tamers Handbook, a world which was previously only of marginal 
interest became a good world for colonisation after the taint setteled out.
any other ideas?
*** "I wonder if you can refuse to inherit the Earth?"          ***
***                                          Calvin and Hobbes  ***
*** Mark James Wilkin                                           ***

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09:11:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Metator

        Downloaded Metator from Rob Prior's Traveller page a few days ago.
This is a truly cool piece of software and all you PC types should run out
and buy Macs so that you can use it.

        Just to rub it in, we're talking complete system generation, with
charts & schematics, and survey reports, sociological reports, planet maps,
atmosphere details, distance to horizon, tech levels, law levels, customs,
major cities, trade details, animal encounters, the whole kit and kaboodle.
Command-G gets you the works

        Rob, I am truly impressed.  Two comments: a) system charts and
schematics are a little big; all that scrolling is a minor pain, and b) if
you could set it up so that the user could hammer in his own additions to
the customs list etc.

        Other than that, wow.  Wow wow.



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09:11:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

>
>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:12:42 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Imperial Establishing Document
>
>Hi folks,
>
>Bruce Johnson forwarded a copy of the establishing documents to me, and I
>forwarded them to David Smart, since he also wanted them.  It's huge, so
>I didn't want to put it on the list without knowing how many people
>wanted it.
>
>
>- -Joe

        Hi Joe...   I for one wouldn't actually mind seeing those again.  I
wrote the one that I wrote last summer in 15-minute breaks snatched out of
a psycho work schedule and I hardly remember a thing about what I wrote :).



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09:11:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

Rich Ostorero wrote:

>
>Suppose that a synthetic crystal could generate useful pizeo voltages (say
>30 V (rms) at
>1500 mA) from ordinary human movement. You wear the crystal array on your
>belt and the
>array generates the electrical power to drive a homopole generator to
>drive that DEI
>laser or gauss gun ;)
>
>- --Rich Ostorero
>stormhvn@inreach.com


        Worn on the belt?  This raises the amusing specter of a bunch of
troops pinned down by heavy fire, running low on power, madly doing the
Macarena or twirling hula hoops or otherwise shaking their booties to keep
the guns firing :)



------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:33:34 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power
>>plant, and the wear and tear on the life support system would be
>>covered by the ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit
>>the food & water seems like it should cost less than Cr140. Also,
>>wouldn't the life suport system be using the ship's power plant for
>>its power requirements as well? Using a figure of Cr1000 per week for
>>the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?
> 
>You forget that air circulation as well as heating and cooling use
>non-trivial amounts of power. 

But irregardless of the amount, the power comes from the ship's power plant
and that's accounted for elsewhere.

>Also, you are paying for water
>*purification* and waste disposal/treatment. And then we get to air....

If my ship lands on the surface of a world then I'm paying for tap water.
It takes an awfully thirsty passenger to drink up ("process" ;-) 1800
credits worth of water...

>Depending on how you go about it air supply or recycling could have
>costs that vary all over the place.
 
Indeed. That's why it would be nice to know just what you get for your
Cr 2000. Most PC-owned ships run on a shoestring budget. Being able to
cut corners may be important to them. But you can't do that if you don't
know what the corners _are_. If money is tight then being required to
burn ca. Cr 18,000 is rather irritating for a player.

Of course, it may be a sacrifice to the Gods of Jumpspace to ensure a
safe trip. Yeah, that makes sense...

Michael Nutt writes:
>>Right! What do you tell a player who says that his character has counted
>>out the Cr. 20,000 for this fortnight's overhead and asks: "Now, who do
>>I pay the money to, and what does he give me in return?"
> 
>Well, what *I* tell them is, "Make the check out to 'Starport Authority,
>Maintenance Division' ", 

What, even in Class E starports?

>and once they do, a cargo lifter pulls up to their
>docking berth and several replenishment techs come aboard, 

Several, eh? How many? 5? For how long? 8 hours? That would cost about Cr 100
in wages. Not 100 per stateroom but 100 in all.

>bringing aboard all your new food supplies, 

Cr 100 per crew, Cr 70 per passenger...

>changing out your air filters

One air filter per passenger and crew carried? Not all the air filters
at once? And what does an air filter cost? And why can't the Engineer
change them?

>replenishing your supplies of essentials for the lifesystem,

What are they and what do they cost?

>getting rid of the assorted crud you've filtered out of the biological
>recyclers and don't particularly want to have around, 

Why can't the crew get rid of that? Is it toxic? Radioactive?

>performing routine maintenance chores and adjustments, 

I thought the crew did that.

>stocking you up on neat stuff like soap and laundry detergents and 
>cleansers 

How much would that be? Cr 10? 20?

>(you *better* clean the 'fresher in those High Passage cabins, or you'll 
>never get another repeat passenger!),

Hardly a concern for most Free Traders.

>performing cleaning chores that you wouldn't be able to do with only onboard
>equipment, or with passengers onboard...

Like what?

>You're going to have food that goes bad, and needs to be replaced, 

You can REPLACE the food a passenger eats in 14 days for Cr100. Having
10% of it spoil wouldn't put a dent in the budget, and with modern food
preservation methods, let alone futuristic, that is highly unlikely.

>other fungibles that need restock, and minor maintenance that just can't 
>wait, and that a regular commercial ship wouldn't be able to do from its 
>own resources. 

But the rule dosen't say "Cr 2000 per occupant if you want to run a
regular passenger ship" it says "Cr 2000 per occupant, period". Besides,
even a regular passenger ship dosen't pay for nothing.

>Plus, you want to have lots of *variety* in a lot of these
>things, to account for different tastes.

Superficially plausible, but look at the figures again. Cr 200 will buy
you a month's groceries. Good food, mark you. Not luxuries, but not
subsistence crud either. I don't know just what that is in 1996 US$, but
translated into Danish kroner it comes to something like the equivalent
of $250. That means this maintenance costs you $2500 per passenger (not
per stateroom, mind you, which would be the case in your scenario).
Deduct $250 for 9 days of food, detergent and toilet paper, and you're
paying $2250 per stateroom for a quick clean-up. You may believe that;
my players wouldn't.
 
>Of course, if you really *want* to skimp on this amount...     :)
> 
>"Bologna sandwiches AGAIN???? Mr. Purser, I'd like a word with you..."

"We're a Free Trader. What did you expect? And I'm an engineer, damnit!"

>"This cabin smells funny. What do you mean, 'that's from the Aslan who
>stayed here last trip'?"

"You wanted to get off planet real bad, didn't you? Deal with it."

>"Um, Mr. Purser, my 'fresher's out of toilet paper... What do you mean,
>'Hold it until we make landfall'??? I don't *think* so!!!"
>
>"For our treasured passengers, the steward has put out a fresh snack tray of
>cheez-doodles..."
>
>"If I have to watch those same three holovids *again*, I'm going to go
>berserk... can't we get some new ones at our next landfall?"

You're making a very good point here, even if you don't know it. The PCs
should be allowed to make that choice. You should impose appropiate
penalties for such skimping... but in role-playing terms, not a blanket,
non-negotiable fee. I mean,  I don't mind the locals on a space station
or a desert planet stiffing a captive customer over some very expensive
water or the SMWU (Spaceship Maintenance Workers Union) in a Class A
Starport gouging them over a spring cleaning, but such things should be
something the players could anticipate and deal with. Stocking up on
canned goods when they get a good deal, skipping a cleaning until they
get to a Class C starport (or doing it themselves) etc. It might even
make a good lure or reward. 10 cases of air filters at half price, say,
instead of a cash reward.

One final question: Is it 2000 _local_ credits per occupancy or 2000
Crimp (Credits Imperial) per occupancy? 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:00:06 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: World populations

Bolie Williams IV writes:
> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:08:41 -0500
> Subject: Re: World populations
> 
>At 4:27 PM 10/19/96, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>Not quite true. I don't have a problem with SOME unpleasant worlds having a
>>larger population than SOME pleasant worlds. What I object to is all worlds,
>>regardless of habitability, having the exact same population distribution.
>>3% of them have 0-9 people, 7% of them have 10-99 people, etc.
> 
>This is probably not accurate... Earth-like worlds probably ought to have
>some kind of bonus to population rolls.  However, there are a lot of
>reasons why a nasty world might have a higher population than a 'perfect'
>world.

Oh sure. I don't want a correlation of 1 between habitability and population.
That would be almost as unrealistic as the present correlation of 0. But I do
think there ought to be _some_ correlation.

>>I also have a problem with pleasant worlds having NO population whatsoever.
> 
>Climate, hydrographics, etc... are only one part of a world.  Perhaps
>the world has really, really dangerous predators.  Perhaps all the of
>the animal and plant life on the planet is dangerous.  Perhaps the plant
>life on the planet is totally inedible and edible crops are hard to
>grow for some reason.  The few people there could be slowly expanding
>the food supply.  Maybe the sunlight is a weird color which people
>find unpleasant.  Myabe there's a lot of asteroid activity and folks
>don't like getting rocks dropped on their heads.

All of this is possible, and I've used many of them myself. What I object
to is the frequency they appear at. Besides, I have difficulty imagining
many menaces that are more expensive to deal with than corrosive and
insidious atmospheres. Some, sure, but it gets tedious in the long run.

>Actually, there are a lot of other exampls of people living in less
>pleasant places.  New York City has a population of around 18 million
>and it's not a nice place... cold and snowy and crowded.  The whole
>state of Colorado has a low population and it's a nice place.  People
>go where jobs are a lot of the time...

Yeah, but you're overlooking the first step in that chain: Jobs appear
where people go. And other things being equal they will go to pleasant
places rather than unpleasant ones. New York City was a pleasant spot
once.

>>But that's exactly my point. If you have the choice of setting up a new
>>colony on a world where you can breathe the air and grow your own food
>>and one where you need expensive protection from the environment, which
>>one would you choose?
> 
>Also, trade routes are important.  Availability of off-world supplies
>could be important.  Protection by the Navy could also be an important
>factor.  Also, you have to find a source of colonists... it could be
>that people in the neighboring star systems are happy where they are
>or can't move.

Yes, but the present system dosen't address that at all. Believe me, I
know! I'm working on the early history of the Spinward Marches right now,
and on the trade route from Mora to the Sword Worlds there are THREE
Terran-norm or Terran-prime planets with implausibly low populations.

>As soon as the nice world is discovered, the wealthy will probably move 
>there first and buy up as much land as possible.  Some will live there 
>while others may be developers, building whole towns to get folks to move.  

You know, that is actually _my_ argument you're using there. What you
describe is why I maintain that most nice planets will have decent
populations. 

>Depending on who buys it, there may never be that many people there.  

Yes, but let's keep a sense of proportion here. To leave a planet fallow
(ie. not generating income for the owner) for receational purposes, the
owner must be rich enough to own a few planets that do generate income.
To leave a continent unused you have to own a few productive continents,
etc. 

>The wealthy may all buy estates the size of a small state.

Which would put the population of an Earth-like planet into the hundreds 
to start with. Add  the service staff such a wealthy man would want and
you're into the tens of thousands at least... propably the 100,000s (if
you owned a small state, wouldn't you want at least 1000 employees? Hey,
the "personal services" staff alone would account for the first order of
magnitude ;-)

>The easy solution is to not just roll on the tables but to make the
>worlds up with some eye to what you want them to be like.  The tables
>shouldn't be used to create worlds you plan on using as major worlds.

My solution is to spend 10 minutes trying to come up with an explanation
for any bizarre UPP and then changing it if I can't.  (It's surprising
how often I do come up with something. But on occasion it does become a
stress...)

I'm not saying I can't deal with the problem. I just disagree with those
who says that there is no problem to deal with in the first place.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09:34:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Signed Hardcovers

Could somebody tell me what the cutoff date for having your hardcover
signed was? I just came across the check stub I sent in, and it was dated
July 15.

Thanks,

John K.



********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************




------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:29:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Signed Hardcovers 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09: 34:05 CDT
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:29:55 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: 
: 
: Could somebody tell me what the cutoff date for having your hardcover
: signed was? I just came across the check stub I sent in, and it was dated
: July 15.

It had to be ordered before July 1st.  Sorry. 8(

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:32:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Power Crystals

Brad Urwiller asked about power crystals.

There's no need to come up with new/non-canon technology, actually.
I and others have been using a scaled-down version of the Zuchai
crystals as storage batteries.  I don't remember who the original
poster was but he called them zuchacells, arguing that you didn't
need all the bulky gear to keep the energy flow constant and stuff.
If you can't find it in the archives I can try finding it in my own.
:)

	The neat thing about zuchai crystals is that they 'record'
the power input/fluctuations, so instead of needing big regulators on
the battery side, you can just charge the cell at the required
output.  Also neat is that you can (with some spit and chewing gum)
turn the zuchai crystal into an actual recording device/low-grade
data crystal.

	I have not seen any canon regarding the scaling down of
zuchai crystals anywhere.  I really hope that the new equipment
catalog contains neat new hi-tech equipment. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:28:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Pleeeaaaaasee  Forgive Me!!!!!

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> Forgive Me.  I'm OMKB (On My Knees Begging).  What have I done to offend the
> list so.  For the past six to seven messages I've sent to the list I've
> recieved no reply not even a simple mention of my words in another thread.

   There are a couple of things you can do to "be noticed".

   A) Mention Virus; as in "Virus is illogical" or "I think the Virus era
is THE BEST." 

   B) Start a thread on rocks at 0.1c...

   <BEG>

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:34:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship economics & Misjumps

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Douglas McCorison wrote:
> 
> Actually, this brings up question #3)
> When I figured out the starship payments and time frame I ended up 
> with an interest rate of about 4% and that's assuming that the
> payments are just PI (Principal & Interest) not PITI (Principle,
> Interest, Taxes, & Insurance).  Does anyone else think this is 
> low for the risk level on a Free Trader?  And if those payments
> are PITI, then the interest rate is probably down at 3%....
> That doesn't sound like a cold hearted banker to me.

  IIRC, in CT it was stated that the Prime Rate in Imperial Space was 2%,
because of a very stable economy (possibly such transactions are
subsidized by the Imperium to encourage interstellar trade)

  If this is so, 4% (including taxes and insurance) would seem to be in
line.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:38:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Economics Problems (Long)

John Bucsek wrote:

[chainsaw noises]

>I know this is a little late for this thread but my expience with living in
>a "small" room is as follows.  Check out the living conditions on the
>various retired warships displayed around the US.  Drive a tractor-trailer
>(or check out one of the nicer big bunk trucks and you'll be surprised at
>what you can fit into such a small space. And finally look at a cabin
>cruiser at your local boat dealer, Any of those will give you a good idea at
>what to expect for accomodations in my opinion.  I always thought a starship
>stateroom was small until I lived in a truck for a few years!
>John Bucsek          |  Owner of Orphan Computers (TRS-80 / Amiga)
>jbucsek@bigfoot.com  |  One time long-haul truck driver
>gambrinus@rosey.com  |  Cancer survivor and happy to now live in the
>pacific NW!


        Yeah... something that's worth checking out for inspiration is the
annual Sail magazine Buyers' Guide issue.  Comes with interior layouts
(i.e. deckplans) for literally hundres of small, medium, and bloody huge
sailboats.  It's really amazing how much in the way of amenities you can
shoehorn into a small space.



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #581
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Traveller-digest          Sunday, 20 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 582

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #579
         2. RE: Not quite on topic, but...
         3. Re: We have no *Canon* today!
         4. Re: Not quite on topic, but...
         5. Re: Blank Worlds Vote
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #581
         7. Re: Reasons to play the game
         8. Re: Possible Solution for Starship Economics Problems
         9. Re: Microjumps
        10. A Variant Task System for T4 (long)
        11. Re: Missile sizes
        12. Re: Hit location
        13. Jump Drive
        14. Re: Where is everybody?
        15. Yet Another Task System (d20)
        16. Re: Power Crystals
        17. Re: Traveller Costuming
        18. ORKCON in German
        19. Re: World populations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:25:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #579

>> As an alternative technology has anyone thought of power crystals?
>> 
>> I believe modern day watch quartz crystals generate something like 5 mV of
>> power.  Well If Earth is currently tech 8 by tech 12 a lot of advances could
>> have taken place in the studies of the piazo effect (pressure on crystols
>> creating voltage).  The danger threshold in killing someone is around 30 V
>> and .005 mA.  
>
>In my military electronics class, they told us that it was _current_ that
killed. 30KV 
>at 5 mA _usually_ won't kill, but 30V at 100 mA will. The lethal threshold
depends upon 
>a lot of factors; the resistance of the human body is wildly variable.
>

You know, your right.  My electronics book here says 30 V and .005A is
dangerous not lethal.  Current is what kills you.  The 30 volts is because:
at that voltage the resultant current is usually dangerous to lethal. 

FYI:

For those that don't know Electricity for the most part is governend by Ohms
law.  E=IR
E= Voltage in Volts
I=Current in Amps
R=Resistance in Ohms

Typical dry skin has a resistance of between 100,000 ohms and 300,000 ohms.
Wet skin reduces this resistance to approxiamatly 1000 ohms.  According to
the Textbook

Heres the effects on the body at varing currents. 

Amps     Effect
.002     Mild Shock
.01      Cannot let go of what your holding
.02      Breathing difficult, Muscular spasms
.05      Breathing severely inhibited, Suffocation
.12      Heart Stops 
.3       Severe Burns, Lungs stop completely

Now for some examples.  Your electric toothbrush operates at around .09 amp
your lightbulb is normally at 1 amp.  

The above goes to show it wouldn't take a whole lot to both kill you and to
devise a proper personal energy weapon.

||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:38:27 -0700
Subject: RE: Not quite on topic, but...

Ah, your first mistake.  Never get me started on StarWars.  (I'm a bit of a
fanatic) 8)

West End Games does produce the official Star Wars RPG.  Although alot of
what they do goes through LucasArts for legal reasons.  There are two
editions of the game I prefer the second edition myself but which are you
concerned with.  

Also, If your wanting to build a collection of Star Wars be ready to spend a
lot of cash.  I started role playing be getting the 2nd Edition a few years
ago and its hard to keep up.  I think the only other game that might rival
the amount of supplements and add ons is AD&D and thats only a slim
possibility.  Now, I'm not saying don't get it.  In fact just the opposite.
I really would urge anyone to get this RPG.  If you do go in for it let me
know I'd be glad to tell you all its secrets :).    

The best thing about the SW game is that its just as complicated or simple
as you want it.  The game focuses primarily on the fun not so much the
mechanics of the game.  The english language lacks to proper words to fully
describe the greatness of the Game.  

The hardest part though is finding players.  Well, thats true for any game.
My whole life I've never played with more than 2 other individuals.
(Believe me its really difficult).  

And in all truth, Despite my true love for Star Wars.  I do prefer to play
traveller.  By only Problem is that playing with 2 other individuals and
having to mail order any products I don't really have a feel for the
Traveller Universe.  I never now what to purchase or exactly what Traveller
is really like.  Perhaps, We could help eachother out.  You tell me about
Traveller and I'll tell you about Star Wars.

||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 20:36 BST-1
Subject: Re: We have no *Canon* today!

In-Reply-To: <199610200622.QAA14866@curie.dialix.com.au>

> > I count any licensed product - the DGP stuff, for example - as canon.
> > 
> Hmm. So Jump Missile Message drones (in a licensed product) *are* canon?
> And using Black Globes/Capacitors to power Jumps (from "High Guard") *are*
> canon? And chemical lasers (from TNE/FF&S) *are* canon? And *both* HePlaR
> *and* Thruster Plates, despite being mutually exclusive in TNE, are
> "canon" ... as are the one year power supply for thruster plates *and* the
> 30/90 power supply (CTrav and MTrav).

Let me rephrase: things are canon until invalidated or superceded by a later 
product.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 20:36 BST-1
Subject: Re: Not quite on topic, but...

In-Reply-To: <961020.001335.1l6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

> > Anybody out there have a complete set of the following RPGs?
> >
> > Star Ace (Pacesetter)
> > Universe (SPI)
> > Space Opera (FGU)
> > GURPS Space/SF-oriented modules
> > Star Wars (WEG)
> >
> > I'm trying to build a collection of space oriented SF RPGs.
> 
> Are you overlooking the one TSR used to have on purpose?

I would!

OTOH, you're also overlooking Ringworld, Star Trek, Space Master, and 
probably several others.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 20:36 BST-1
Subject: Re: Blank Worlds Vote

In-Reply-To: <961019.220728.2N0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

<< One *major* detail that's overlooked in the above. What *scale* is 
this happening on? Are we talking individual worlds, sub-sectors, or
sectors? At the sector or subsector level, it's great, because it gives
a ref an area he can use for his own stuff without getting it stomped
by official stuff. And as long as the areas are placed carefully, folks
that don't want to detail things on their own can just avoid it. >>

Still waiting to see it, but I think the Core subsector in the rulebook 
is an example of what to expect - blank worlds sitting right next to 
detailed ones.

<< Players *can* be told "there's no official info for those areas, some
we aren't going to play there". And most will understand and stick to
the areas you have info on. >>

Not the people I've played with!

So what's your vote?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #581

>: Could somebody tell me what the cutoff date for having your hardcover
>: signed was? I just came across the check stub I sent in, and it was dated
>: July 15.
>
>It had to be ordered before July 1st.  Sorry. 8(

Rats. I missed it by THAT much. :-)

JK



********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************




------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Reasons to play the game

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>But the background *is* the game! Let's face it, none of us are
>playing it because we think the rules are the best ever designed
>(they're okay, but they're not the reason for buying the game).

For me, the "official" background is the least part of the reason I
play Traveller. I play Traveller because I have found that while the
rules are simple, the rules manage to cover a wide variety of
situations with very little headache for the referee. To me, that's
a good and useful thing in a game system.

I pretty much run my own material in a very non-Imperial setting. So,
for me, the published background is useful for inspiring ideas for my
campaigns, but not much else. If I like something someone has
published for Traveller, I customize it to fit my campaign and plug
it in somewhere that makes sense for me.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Possible Solution for Starship Economics Problems

On 12 Oct 96 at 12:11, Phillip McGregor wrote:

>I just worked out the stats for a basic no-frills 1G, J1 1000 ton merchie
>(no weapons, no refining), all cargo and no passenger capacity - leaves
>757 tons of space for cargo, and the damn thing *still* can't run at less
>than 72% and even "break even" at 1000 Cr per ton. To run and break even
>at 60% capacity, it has to charge 1210 Cr per ton of cargo.

I had an interesting conversation with one of my players last night. 
For several years he worked for one of the world's largest airline 
reservation systems in their computing division.

He tells me that any modern airline that operates their airplanes
with only 60% of the seats filled would likely go out of business
rather quickly, and that they really need to run at more like 70%+
full before making a profit.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Microjumps

IIRC, in an article about jumpspace in JTAS#24, MWM specifically 
mentions what microjumps are all about. Of course, he might have 
changed his mind since then. ;-)

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:43 -0500
Subject: A Variant Task System for T4 (long)

I would have posted this sooner, but I've been a little busy...

It could probably use a little playtesting, so have at it. ;-)

Cheers,
     David

==============================================
A Variant Task System for T4 by David Blustein
==============================================

Calculate the Target Number (TN) using Personal Characteristics (PC) 
and Skill Level (SL) per T4.

Assign a Difficulty Level (DL) to the Difficulty Rating (DR).

For example, instead of simply defining a task as Easy or Difficult,
define it as Easy-0 or Difficult-2.

Roll a number of dice (D) based on the Dice Code (DC) as follows:



     D = DC + (DL - SL)*0.5D



For example, using Difficult-5 and Skill-4 ( -0.5D ) throw 2D, since

     D = 2.5D + (4 - 5)*0.5D = 2.5D + (-1)*0.5D = 2D


For Difficult-5 and Skill-1 ( +2D ) throw 4.5D since

     D = 2.5D + (5 - 1)*0.5D = 2.5D + (4)*0.5D = 4.5D


If the target number is the same, the higher skilled character has a 
better chance at succeeding (more about that later).


The task system in T4 can be described as the case where DL = SL for 
all task rolls.


Some "default" task definitions might be Easy-0, Avg-1, Dif-2, For-3, 
Sta-4, and Imp-5.


Referees are free to assign any Difficulty Level to any task.

Using this variant task system, higher levels of skill grant a
character a greater chance of success and spectacular success, as
well as a lower chance of spectacular failure when compared to lower
levels of skill with an equal target number.

Lower levels of skill grant a character a lower chance of success
and spectacular success, as well as a greater chance of spectacular
failure when compared to greater levels of skill with an equal target
number.


Here are the chances for success for the "default" tasks in this
system.

Each table is labeled with its corresponding "default" task
definition, Target Numbers (TN) down the side, and Skill Levels (SL)
across the top. Percent (%) chance for success is listed in the
tables only when the combination of dice rolled, target numbers, and
skill levels are possible.


Imp-5

TN\SL   0       1      2      3      4     5      6      7
 3      -       -      -      -      -     -      -      -
 6      -       0.002  0.04   0.1    0.2   1.2    -      -
 9      -       0.2    0.4    1.6    3.1   9.7   17.1   37.5
12      -       2.0    3.6    9.8   16.5  33.6   50.0   74.1
15      -       9.6   15.7   30.4   44.4  65.0   81.5   91.2
18      -       -      -     57.5   72.6  83.3   92.1   92.6
21      -       -      -      -      -     -     92.6   92.6


Sta-4

TN\SL   0       1      2      3      4     5      6      7
 3      -       -      -      -      -     -      -      -
 6      0.004   0.1    0.2    1.2    2.3   9.3    -      -
 9      -       1.6    3.1    9.7   17.1  37.5   57.4   83.3
12      -       9.8   16.5   33.6   50.0  74.1   90.7   97.2
15      -      30.4   44.4   65.0   81.5  91.2   97.2   97.2
18      -       -      -     83.3   92.1  92.6   97.2   97.2
21      -       -      -      -      -     -     97.2   97.2


For-3

TN\SL   0       1      2      3      4     5      6+
 3      -       -      -      -      -     -      -
 6      0.2     1.2    2.3    9.3   17.6  41.7    -
 9      -       9.7   17.1   37.5   57.4  83.3   Auto
12      -      33.6   50.0   74.1   90.7  97.2   Auto
15      -      65.0   81.5   91.2   97.2  97.2   Auto
18      -       -      -     92.6   97.2  97.2   Auto
21      -       -      -      -      -     -     Auto


Dif-2

TN\SL   0       1      2      3      4     5+
 3      -       0.5    0.9    -      -     -
 6      2.3     9.3   17.6   41.7   66.7  Auto
 9      -      37.5   57.4   83.3  100.0  Auto
12      -      74.1   90.7   97.2   Auto  Auto
15      -      91.2   97.2   97.2   Auto  Auto
18      -       -      -     97.2   Auto  Auto
21      -       -      -      -      -     -


Avg-1

TN\SL   0       1      2      3+
 3      0.9     8.3   16.7    -
 6     17.6    41.7   66.7  Auto
 9      -      83.3  100.0  Auto
12      -      97.2   Auto  Auto
15      -      97.2   Auto  Auto
18      -       -      -    Auto
21      -       -      -      -


Easy-0

TN\SL   0       1+
 3     16.7    Auto
 6     66.7    Auto
 9      -      Auto
12      -      Auto
15      -      Auto
18      -       -
21      -       -


=====
Alternatively, the effects of skill can be reduced by varying the 
number of dice thrown by 0.25D instead of 0.5D.

If so, roll a number of dice (D) based on the Dice Code (DC) as follows:


     D = DC + (DL - SL)*0.25D


Round down to the nearest 0.5D (i.e., 2.25D becomes 2D, and 4.75D 
becomes 4.5D).


Enjoy!

Comments welcome via the TML or directly to me.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:11:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Missile sizes

Dave Strebe wrote:
> 
> I'm sure this has been discused already, but I was trying to do a T4
> design and ran into a small problem with missiles. How much volume do
> reloads take up. Not much point to a turret that shoots two missiles and
> then is so much dead weight.

In CT, missles (non-nuclear?) are 50kg/Cr5000 each and "sand" is
50kg/Cr400 per cannister.

Special Supplement 3, Missles, by MWM (published in JTAS#21) details
rules for custom missles. This supplement is compatible with CT. I'm 
not sure how well it would fit in with MT or T4.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:24:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Hit location

Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> Hello again,
> 
> Here's an improved version of a Hit Location Table I posted to TML a few
> weeks ago. James Garriss pointed out some problems with my original,

This looks great!  I'll be adding it to my combat rules as soon as I get
a chance.

Thanks for the work!
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com



------------------------------

From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:07:11 -0500
Subject: Jump Drive

I have Classic Traveller and FF&S and now T4 and I have a question
about jump drives.  What happens to all the hydrogen?  I know that
some is used as fuel, but what happens to the rest of it?  There's
some comment about displacement mass and coolant in FF&S while T4
just calls it fuel.  The fuel required to jump 1 ton of shipt 1
parsec looks like about enough to produce 230 or so MW for a year
in a power plant.  That's 200,000,000,000,000 kW-h to jump a 100-ton
Scout/Courier 1 parsec assuming it's all used for fuel...

Seems like energy could be supplied by batteries or capacitors and
displacement mass(?) could be supplied by something denser, like
lead, or even unrefined hydrogen.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:29:42 -0600
Subject: Re: Where is everybody?

Glenn Grant responds to
Kenneth Bearden's plaintive cry,

>>Hey, where did everybody go?
>>I know Joe is busy with his new duties, but I haven't seen any posts in a
>>while from
>>several people that are usually on this list.  I still see Leonard, Amused to
>>Death,
>>Andrew, and several others, but many are missing.

>>Where is Glenn?

>I haven't gone anywhere. Oh, you must mean Glenn Hopp. Or Glenn Close?

I'm still here. Just lurking now. Recently bought Marathon Infinity.
I might be busy for a while... :-) <8-o \#-P

(Yet Another) Glenn

PS. Marathon fans! I'm working on a Subsidized Merchant Marathon level.
Expect to see it soon, barring any influence from those pesky SolSec
agents. Anyone else working on Traveller themed Marathon levels?

PPS. Geez, is Glenn Close *really* a member of the list? ;-)

PPPS. Have you noticed that all Traveller fans named Glenn spell their
names with two n's? I wonder if it is in homage to the game?
(Traveler=>Traveller)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:56:49 -0600
Subject: Yet Another Task System (d20)

        I haven't really been able to give much time to following the task
system quotes, but I decided to do a "Me To" and share a task system I
developed for myself. The basic driver was that I wanted
        (A) Impossible tasks should truly be near-impossible, requiring high
skill and characteristic to even try. If I'm going to assign an Impossible
difficulty ...
        (B) Weighted Skill more than Characteristic
        (C) Simple -- I really liked the MT system where each level was 4
away from the previous. OTOH, I grew to really like TNE's use of d20 (heresy
though it be ... you should have heard me when I first opened my box and out
popped the non-sixsided thingy)

        Here's the basic system -- roll under the target number on d20. Your
target number is the base difficulty plus skill plus 1/3 characteristic. A
difficult task has a base number of 5 (25% chance of success), and the
increment is 5. Hence,

        Easy            15
        Routine         10
        Difficult       5
        Formidable      0
        Impossible      -5

        I had a few minutes free at work, so I whipped up a spreadsheet to
compare mine, TNE's and MT's systems. Unfortunately, I'm not
probability-smart enough to calculate MMT chances of success. I wanted to
see the range of low, average and high characteristic (3,7,11) and skill
(1,3,5) to see how it varied. The table lists the probability of success at
each task, skill increasing to the right and characteristic increasing down.
Comments are welcome ...

Skill           1     | Skill           3     | Skill           5
Characteristic  3     | Characteristic  3     | Characteristic  3
Level  Mine  TNE  MT  | Level  Mine  TNE  MT  | Level  Mine  TNE  MT
Asset    2    4    1  | Asset    4    6    3  | Asset    6    8    5
Easy    85%  80%  97% | Easy    95%  95%  97% | Easy    95%  95%  97%
Rout    60%  40%  72% | Rout    70%  60%  92% | Rout    80%  80%  97%
Diff    35%  20%  17% | Diff    45%  30%  42% | Diff    55%  40%  72%
Form    10%  10%   0% | Form    20%  15%   3% | Form    30%  20%  17%
Imp      0%   5%   0% | Impo     0%   8%   0% | Imp      5%  10%   0%
 ----------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------
Skill           1     | Skill           3     | Skill           5
Characteristic  7     | Characteristic  7     | Characteristic  7
Level  Mine  TNE  MT  | Level  Mine  TNE  MT  | Level  Mine  TNE  MT
Asset    3    8    2  | Asset    5   10    4  | Asset    7   12    6
Easy    90%  95%  97% | Easy    95%  95%  97% | Easy    95%  95%  97%
Rout    65%  80%  83% | Rout    75%  95%  97% | Rout    85%  95%  97%
Diff    40%  40%  28% | Diff    50%  50%  58% | Diff    60%  60%  83%
Form    15%  20%   0% | Form    25%  25%   8% | Form    35%  30%  28%
Imp      0%  10%   0% | Imp      0%  13%   0% | Imp     10%  15%  0%
 ----------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------
Skill           1     | Skill           3     | Skill           5
Characteristic 11     | Characteristic 11     | Characteristic 11
Level  Mine  TNE  MT  | Level  Mine  TNE  MT  | Level  Mine  TNE  MT
Asset    4   12    3  | Asset    6   14    5  | Asset    8   16    7
Easy    95%  95%  97% | Easy    95%  95%  97% | Easy    95%  95%  97%
Rout    70%  95%  92% | Rout    80%  95%  97% | Rout    90%  95%  97%
Diff    45%  60%  42% | Diff    55%  70%  72% | Diff    65%  80%  92%
Form    20%  30%   3% | Form    30%  35%  17% | Form    40%  40%  42%
Imp      0%  15%   0% | Imp      5%  18%   0% | Imp     15%  20%   3%

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu (Kelly St. Clair)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 15:04:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Power Crystals

pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
wrote:

> [How about using small zuchai crystals, which are already canon?]

Every once in a while, an idea comes up on this list that is so simple
  and brilliant that I, a lurker, simply must speak up.

Most SF and SFRPGs have some technology whose applications are barely
  explored.  Zuchai crystals are onesuch; this post shows that they
  have uses besides being part of the "black box" down in Engineering
  that makes the ship go.  Can anyone think of other places where
  compact storage of energy with output precisely mirroring input
  might be useful?

Also, if we're taking zuchai crystals out of Engineering, we have to
  consider what happens when one gets damaged or shot...


- -------------------------
Kelly St.Clair
kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu

------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 20 Oct 96 18:10:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

An excellent source of uniforms, caps, jackets, helmets, insignia, etc. from a
variety of the world's armies is U.S. Cavalry. There are probably similar
sources (I don't work for them, I just keep getting their catalogs). They also
stock a variety of high tech (i.e., TL-8) gear. I got a pair of tall East German
boots for about $30 which, except for the cardboard insoles, have worked out
very well. Their address is US Cavalary; 2855 Centennial Avenue; Radcliff, KY
40160-9981. (888) 888-7228 or (502) 351-1164.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:31:11 -0500
Subject: ORKCON in German

If you live in Germany, and want to meet Ken Whitman or Lester Smith come
to ORKCON.  It is run by Rober Moore, the owner of Wizards Circle (a RPG
Store).

If you live in america this is your chance to go!!!! Round Trip tickets are
now $450 bucks or less to Germany and it is being held on a U.S. army base
(where people know how to speak english.  Its NOV 1-4 in Schwinfurt,
GERMANY.

Contact Imperium Games at 414-249-9456
or Robert Moore (who speeks great english) in Germany at 011-49-9721-299180



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:34:55 -0600
Subject: Re: World populations

At 05:08 pm 19 10 96 -0500, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>At 4:27 PM 10/19/96, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>Robert Flammang writes:
>>>
>>>Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
>>>comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
>>>pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.

>Well, Antarctica is smaller than some of the other continents.  :)
>Actually, there are a lot of other exampls of people living in less
>pleasant places.  New York City has a population of around 18 million
>and it's not a nice place... cold and snowy and crowded.  The whole
>state of Colorado has a low population and it's a nice place.  People
>go where jobs are a lot of the time...

        Colorado is not a nice place to live, no indeedy, it's very
unpleasant, yeah, that's right, nobody wants to live here, in fact we all
can't wait to move out, oh yes, nobody would want to move to Colorado ....
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #582
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 21 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 583

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial Establishing...
         2. Re: Traveller Costuming
         3. Re: World populations
         4. Personal Pizeo Power Sources
         5. Re: Hit Location
         6. Re: Jump Drive
         7. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
         8. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         9. RE:Imperial Establishing Document
        10. Re: ORKCON in German
        11. Velocity at jump exit? (NO bombardment!!!)
        12. Re: Starship economics
        13. High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:27:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing...

Hello Joe,

I saw on the list that you recieved some establishing documents.  I wouldn't
mind seeing them if you can e-mail me.

||||
O  O
 (   Brad Urwiller
 __  ravyn@ptw.com
||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:47:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Yeah, the equivalent of the "good conduct medal" is probably pretty
>safe. 

Other "safe" awards are the Army Achievment Medal (the Green Weenie), Army
Commendation Medals, Good Conduct, National Defence Ribbon.  Stay away from
Purple Hearts, or anything that has the word "star" attached to it.

>One other "safe" source of medals are the "political" ones from the
>USSR and "Eastern block". There are a *lot* of medals there that tended
>to get handed out for being a good Party member, or just "in favor".
>Even so, stay away from that simple gold star on a red ribbon. The
>folks who *earned* that one rank right up there with the CMoH.

I don't know.. being a Hero of the Soviet Unoin has a certain appeal to
it...  If you get the U.S. Cavalry catalog (or know someone who does) the
winter issue features a complete set of East German Police service medals,
with the ribbons, for about $100.  These are generic looking enough for a
casual pass in a con hallway.  The also have a ton of other EG goodies like
shoulderboards, uniforms, etc...



+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 16:50:53 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: World populations

 
>         Colorado is not a nice place to live, no indeedy, it's very
> unpleasant, yeah, that's right, nobody wants to live here, in fact we all
> can't wait to move out, oh yes, nobody would want to move to Colorado ....

Yeah, that's right, I frequently have to go to Colorado, yuck.  The
only thing it has going for it is that it's better than New Mexico,
I can't believe anybody would bother to come here either.  And
what's so bad about canyons of concrete and metal, sure beats real
canyons---hot, broken ground, pesky rattlers.  Yessiree, Bob.  Big
grimy cities are where it's at!

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: Personal Pizeo Power Sources

Rich Ostorero wrote:
>
>Suppose that a synthetic crystal could generate useful pizeo voltages (say
>30 V (rms) at
>1500 mA) from ordinary human movement. You wear the crystal array on your
>belt and the
>array generates the electrical power to drive a homopole generator to
>drive that DEI
>laser or gauss gun ;)
>
I like the idea.  Only problem is it would probably invovle A LOT of
movement to generate the required voltage.  Try this out.

Lets take the case of a TL 12 Chemical Cartridge Laser Pistol

Okay, now lets replace the Chemical Cartridge with some sort of 'flash
charge' battery. I'm not sure of the proper name.  I'm referring to a
battery or other medium that would take a large amount of voltage in a small
amount of time and keep it.  Perhaps by using a loop curcuit of sometype.

Now taking the belt idea...

Lets take the synthetic crystal array and connect it to a homopole generator
(it's been a while could you explain what a homopole generator is exaclty?).
The homopole generator has leads connecting it to dual storage battteries
which in turn have leads to the weapons holster.  Thus when the weapon is
place in the holster the weapon could be fast charged once their is
sufficient charge in the belt.  But, when used in combat the pistol would
have those annoying wires dangling from it.  

So when you charge from one battery on the belt your movements begin
recharging it.  And when you need a reload you could charge from another
battery on the belt while the other recharges.  This design would delay the
'dancing' when you run out of ammo in the gun.

Any ideas or thoughts.
I realize my idea sounds weak, but I like the pizeo crystol idea, so I'd
appreciate 
anyone's thoughts.  

||||
O  O
 (  Brad Urwiller
 __ ravyn@ptw.com


||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:57:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hit Location

Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net> said,

>According to my research, the following are accurate (within 5% each area).
>These are 
>based on wounds from WWI to present
>
>Ranged
>1 Head
>2 Arms, 1-3 left/4-6 right
>3 Chest
>4 Gut
>5 Left Leg
>6 Right Leg

Very interesting! Your Ranged distribution looks somewhat like my "Random"
distribution. Maybe my first instincts were closer to accurate. But, as I
said, other distributions are possible - such as your Melee table; I might
want to add a column for this. It makes good sense to me. 

>Melee
>1 Head
>2 Left Arm
>3 Right Arm
>4 Chest
>5 Gut
>6 Legs, 1-3 left/4-6 right

Your tables are nice and elegant: just one die, and easily memorized
results; after a while you wouldn't need to consult the table.

Thanks for the feedback!

Glenn
- --------
David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> sez,
>Do I like? Is the Pacific Ocean moist? Geez, Glenn, excellent work! I'm
>definitely holding on to this one and forwarding it personally to the
>ref of the campaign I'm currently in (hear that, Steve?)

Thanks and your welcome. I'm "chuffed" (as someone said here a while back).

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
                  -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:50:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive

Quoth Bolie Williams IV:
> I have Classic Traveller and FF&S and now T4 and I have a question
> about jump drives.  What happens to all the hydrogen?

I have no idea where the hydrogen goes.  Maybe Marc will tell us.  :-)
In MegaTraveller, DGP's much-lauded Starship Operator's Manual claims (p. 12):

"Entering jump-space requires large amounts of energy.  A special high-
yield fusion power plant incorporated within the jump drive itself provides
this energy.  The jump drive power plant consumes copious quantities of
fuel very quickly in o rder to charge the energy sinks (typically zuchai
crystals) with high-grade energy in preparation for the jump transition.

"Energy Sink Array: The energy produced by the jump drive's power plant is
stored in an array of high-energy sinks (also sometimes called 'jump
capacitors').  Most ships found within the Imperium use a network of
zuchai crystals as the energy sink array.

"No other known sink construct can retain such high levels of energy
without decomposing as can zuchai crystals.  However, the crystals will
begin to decompose and break down after two or three hours if not
discharged.  In extreme cases, the crystals can explosively decompose and
do significant damage to the ship."

Yep, it's handwaving.  Nope, I can't think of a better explanation offhand.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:31:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> >
> >Suppose that a synthetic crystal could generate useful pizeo voltages (say
> >30 V (rms) at
> >1500 mA) from ordinary human movement. You wear the crystal array on your
> >belt and the
> >array generates the electrical power to drive a homopole generator to
> >drive that DEI
> >laser or gauss gun ;)
> >
> >- --Rich Ostorero
> >stormhvn@inreach.com
> 
>         Worn on the belt?  This raises the amusing specter of a bunch of
> troops pinned down by heavy fire, running low on power, madly doing the
> Macarena or twirling hula hoops or otherwise shaking their booties to keep
> the guns firing :)

All together now! "Stayin' alive, stayin' alive..." (Who said disco was
dead?)

------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 23:39:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

jw> From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> Re: Imperial Establishing
jw> Document

ro> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
ro>
ro> I'd like to see it, too . . . . if one of you Travellers Intrepid
ro> with a Web site decide to post it to your site -- prob solved!

jw> I emailed it to Peter Miller. I think he's going to contact the
jw> individuals who wrote them, and get their permission to put it on
jw> his site.
jw>
jw> Then again, maybe he'll tell me to go fly a kite. :)

Joe,

If permission is forthcomming and a site is needed...  I volunteer my newly
created, but still under construction, site: http://www.xnet.com/~cmaddox/.

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/   http://www.xnet.com/~cmaddox/



------------------------------

From: Shane.Dowling@deetya.gov.au
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:10:35 +1000
Subject: RE:Imperial Establishing Document

Joe,

could you please forward a copy to me of the Imperial Establishing
Document.

Also,  how does a person set up a class A Starport.  I have a player who
is setting up a colony and will want to upgrade from a Class X to Class
A.  Many reasons but the main is to start to produce ships (civilian and
military) for the 3I expansion.

thanks in advance

Shane Dowling

I came, I saw, I fished
Score           Fish :0      Cartons :2    Esky :Empty

------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:26:26 -0700
Subject: Re: ORKCON in German

Ken Whitman wrote:
> 
> If you live in Germany, and want to meet Ken Whitman or Lester Smith come
> to ORKCON.  It is run by Rober Moore, the owner of Wizards Circle (a RPG
> Store).
> 

Ehm - I'm living in Austria. Is Orccon a gaming convention? Or is it just 
a fair.
Where EXACTLY does it take place. Schwinfurt? Maybe you mean Schweinfurt.
And where there?

I would appreciate some more info. Thanx a lot.

Cya.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

From: Michael Nutt <misha@crossrds.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:05:11 -0400
Subject: Velocity at jump exit? (NO bombardment!!!)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>There are several ways of dealing with this. One would be to say that
>your realspace vector has some bearing on your jumpspace vector. But
>that gets *real* ugly.
>
>So let's work up some pseudo-science.
>
>First off, I'd say that unless you do something special, you have the
>same velocity vector upon emerging from jump as when entering. This
>does the least violence to normal phsyics. On the downside, it means
>that you have to deal with the velocity difference between the system
>you left and the system you are entering. 

My problem with *this* is in the basic definition of a vector... it is in
relation to something else, like "the world you're leaving". OK, I'm willing
to accept it if no other compromise can be worked out, but it still strikes
me as inelegant.

>Now, the question is *if* you can somehow use the jump to change this
>vector. If yes, we need to restrict it, otherwise it could be used to
>jump into a system at a *very* high velocity for the purpose of dumping
>deadfall ordanance on a planet. Not good.

Nope, not good, but unavoidable, IMO. While *not* wanting to bring up the
issue of orbital bombardment here, you could also use it to bring you in at
a high enough velocity that all you'd have to do would be constantly
decelerate to orbital velocity, in order to minimize your transit times
coming in from 100 diameters, as no acceleration would be required (well,
you see what I mean... I know acceleration is just deceleration in the
opposite direction!).

>Second, is the question of whether or not sensor readings of a jumping
>ship (or an arriving one) will give you some idea of the direction or
>distance of the jump.
>
>I think that we could do just leave it at "you keep the vector, and
>can't change it". This would mean that most ships would take a course
>that gave them a favorable vector for their destination by the time
>they reached the required distance for jumping. Thus ships destined for
>a specfic system would tend to have a predictable heading. 
>
>Of course it's a *bit* more complex than this. You can do some matching
>at the other end, but that uses more fuel. And the velocities depend on
>not only the relative velocities of the stars, but of the planets you
>are moving between.

I'm afraid I just can't buy the idea of being able to adjust for the
relative motion between star systems and yet not be able to handle the
velocity acquired through using the maneuver drive. I compromise somewhat by
allowing my players to just accelerate like mad for the 100-diameter limit
with no required turnover, and rule that they get dropped out of jumpspace
right on the 100-diameter limit of their target world, at rest with relation
to the object creating the gravity well.It's a little arbitrary, true, but
it's a sacrifice made for playability. you could also get into some double
talk about "radiation flux" if players decide to come out of jumpspace with
a large velocity vector, say "0.4c toward the mainworld" or something like
that...   :)


Michael


------------------------------

From: Michael Nutt <misha@crossrds.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 03:05:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship economics

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>Indeed. That's why it would be nice to know just what you get for your
>Cr 2000. Most PC-owned ships run on a shoestring budget. Being able to
>cut corners may be important to them. But you can't do that if you don't
>know what the corners _are_. If money is tight then being required to
>burn ca. Cr 18,000 is rather irritating for a player.

<grin> Nobody ever said it was going to be easy to own your own starship....

>Of course, it may be a sacrifice to the Gods of Jumpspace to ensure a
>safe trip. Yeah, that makes sense...
>
>Michael Nutt writes:
>>>Right! What do you tell a player who says that his character has counted
>>>out the Cr. 20,000 for this fortnight's overhead and asks: "Now, who do
>>>I pay the money to, and what does he give me in return?"
>> 
>>Well, what *I* tell them is, "Make the check out to 'Starport Authority,
>>Maintenance Division' ", 
>
>What, even in Class E starports?

<grin> Well, I never make anybody *pay* that money, until they actually land
somewhere and do some restocking. Still, if they abuse it, I think it's my
job as the referee to impose penalties on them.

"OK, you haven't gotten any more food in .... six months, since that was the
last time you paid your life support money. You've entered jumpspace, the
galley cabinets are empty. Your gunner is looking at you with ...hungry...
eyes. What do you do, Mr. Donner?" (cannibalism joke there, for the
non-Americans reading this)

>>and once they do, a cargo lifter pulls up to their
>>docking berth and several replenishment techs come aboard, 
>
>Several, eh? How many? 5? For how long? 8 hours? That would cost about Cr 100
>in wages. Not 100 per stateroom but 100 in all.

<shrug> Who knows? Depends on your ship, how much servicing you need, how
much in the way of supplies, and just what the Dockworker's Union lets you
get away with paying. For trained environmental techs, I'd say 20 Cr per
hour might even be a *low* guess, but I *like* keeping my players searching
for cash! And what kind of enviromental tech will be willing to work for the
absurdly low wage you mention (100 Cr/40 man-hours = 2.5Cr/hour!! Waaaaaaay
below any kind of minimum wage, *especially* for trained techs).

>>bringing aboard all your new food supplies, 
>
>Cr 100 per crew, Cr 70 per passenger...

And this number strikes me as low, especially for anyone charging the rates
that standard passage costs. More on this later... And why on earth would
you have better food for the crew than the passengers?

>>changing out your air filters
>
>One air filter per passenger and crew carried? Not all the air filters
>at once? And what does an air filter cost? And why can't the Engineer
>change them?

Well, I would imagine that there's at least one filtration unit for each
stateroom, as they can have different sorts of environments. You'll also
have air quality issues for the ship as a whole, too, which would be of an
even greater magnitude. I have no idea what they'd cost, but I'd assume
they'd be standardized in size, at least. You'd want to do it at landfall
when there's no passenger in there because you'd have to shut down the
environmental unit to do maintenance on it, and the passengers would find
that very uncomfortable.

>>replenishing your supplies of essentials for the lifesystem,
>
>What are they and what do they cost?

Who knows? Do any of your crew have special requirements? What does it cost
to provide that certain "atmospheric tang" that Crewman A wants in his
cabin? How do you purify your drinking water, and what does that cost? What
if you need more air, and this is a highport? What additives do you need for
your recycling system?

>>getting rid of the assorted crud you've filtered out of the biological
>>recyclers and don't particularly want to have around, 
>
>Why can't the crew get rid of that? Is it toxic? Radioactive?

Could be, depending on your crew mix... it also might not be convenient for
the crew to access while underway, kinda like flushing out the toilet tanks
on a cabin cruiser. You *can* just flush it into the harbor, but the people
in the next slip will get angry at having to smell it. You also won't be
able to use that system while it's being cleaned, and that could be *highly*
inconvenient if you're underway... "Passengers will please refrain from
using the freshers for personal relief for the next hour while the engineer
does maintenance", maybe, but what if he runs into a problem? "Um... the
freshers will be working again sometime soon... please be patient!!"

>>performing routine maintenance chores and adjustments, 
>
>I thought the crew did that.

Yes, but this is when you *pay* for it, rather than assessing you a 2 Cr
charge every time a light bulb burns out or something. That's why it's
called "overhead charge".

>>stocking you up on neat stuff like soap and laundry detergents and 
>>cleansers 
>
>How much would that be? Cr 10? 20?

In industrial strength, and large quantity, could be lots more than that,
could be less. Depends on how much you need, and how easily available it is,
and how much you use.

>>(you *better* clean the 'fresher in those High Passage cabins, or you'll 
>>never get another repeat passenger!),
>
>Hardly a concern for most Free Traders.

Well, if you don't have any passengers, you won't need to pay the overhead
charge, now, will you?   :)

Seriously, *my* players like having that extra income, and the staterooms
*are* just sitting there otherwise. If their ship gets a rep as being a
worse place to spend a week than a train station inhabited by bums, they
won't be able to get those passengers.

>>performing cleaning chores that you wouldn't be able to do with only onboard
>>equipment, or with passengers onboard...
>
>Like what?

<shrug> Steam-cleaning carpets. Flushing airducts. Purging waste systems.
Scrubbing all your food storage and preparation areas. That's just what
springs to mind immediately...

>>You're going to have food that goes bad, and needs to be replaced, 
>
>You can REPLACE the food a passenger eats in 14 days for Cr100. Having
>10% of it spoil wouldn't put a dent in the budget, and with modern food
>preservation methods, let alone futuristic, that is highly unlikely.

As I said above, I think that number is way too low. My ballpark guess,
based on the (soc*250Cr)/month number for food, clothing, lodging, & etc.,
is that that number is low by a factor of 4, at least, maybe more. Also,
regarding spoilage, have you ever worked in any sort of food service
operation? I'm a perishables supervisor for a local grocery store, and we
have lots of fresh foods that just don't last very long, even with
refrigeration. Ever eaten hamburger that was six days old? It's pretty
gross, and certainly nothing you want to serve to someone who is paying you
good money for service. If I pay High Passage prices, or even Middle Passage
prices, and I have to eat frozen meals, or the Traveller equivalent of
MRE's, I'm gonna be pissed off. I think you're overestimating the longevity
of the galley stores.

>>other fungibles that need restock, and minor maintenance that just can't 
>>wait, and that a regular commercial ship wouldn't be able to do from its 
>>own resources. 
>
>But the rule dosen't say "Cr 2000 per occupant if you want to run a
>regular passenger ship" it says "Cr 2000 per occupant, period". Besides,
>even a regular passenger ship dosen't pay for nothing.

True. It's a rough number, given as an approximation. You also have to keep
in mind that you have to give your crews *some* degree of comfort, in order
to keep them happy and functioning well. Skimping on the supplies is a bad
sign, and will lead to a deterioration in crew morale. Since these folks
*have* to be in each other's faces for a week or more at a time, it's vital
to keep them at least superficially happy. Still, coming up 100 Cr short
shouldn't be a world-ending crisis, either... cut your players some slack.

>>Plus, you want to have lots of *variety* in a lot of these
>>things, to account for different tastes.
>
>Superficially plausible, but look at the figures again. Cr 200 will buy
>you a month's groceries. Good food, mark you. Not luxuries, but not
>subsistence crud either. I don't know just what that is in 1996 US$, but
>translated into Danish kroner it comes to something like the equivalent
>of $250. That means this maintenance costs you $2500 per passenger (not
>per stateroom, mind you, which would be the case in your scenario).
>Deduct $250 for 9 days of food, detergent and toilet paper, and you're
>paying $2250 per stateroom for a quick clean-up. You may believe that;
>my players wouldn't.

<shrug> As I said above, I think your "200 Cr" number is way off. My
"monthly food/clothing/lodging,etc." bill comes to around US$1000, and I'm
not living in a very outrageous fashion. I don't have Soc 4, either <grin>.
Call my monthly bill $300 for groceries/food ($10/day, for 3 meals and
snacks). My diet gets me by, but it's not good enough for a starship crewman
or passenger, because I don't have the assorted overheads they'd have,
either, and I'm not eating enough "good stuff" to keep a passenger or
crewman happy. Check with some folks who've been in the Navy... nothing
shoots morale on a ship at sea as bad as having bad chow.

My own personal games usually have a *very rough* approximation of 2 Cr =
US$ 1, but this is obviously open to fudging either up or down. I personally
figure that about 2/3 of that overhead amount gets spent on food, etc., and
the rest gets spent on other various life-support related things, and minor
fungibles.

>>Of course, if you really *want* to skimp on this amount...     :)
>> 
>>"Bologna sandwiches AGAIN???? Mr. Purser, I'd like a word with you..."
>
>"We're a Free Trader. What did you expect? And I'm an engineer, damnit!"

"For 10,000 Cr, I expected a hell of a lot better than this!! I want a
refund!! You'll be hearing from my lawyer!!"

>>"This cabin smells funny. What do you mean, 'that's from the Aslan who
>>stayed here last trip'?"
>
>"You wanted to get off planet real bad, didn't you? Deal with it."

"Um, no, I was just taking a pleasure trip, and thought I'd try something a
little different. I'll stick to Tukera next time."

>>"Um, Mr. Purser, my 'fresher's out of toilet paper... What do you mean,
>>'Hold it until we make landfall'??? I don't *think* so!!!"
>>
>>"For our treasured passengers, the steward has put out a fresh snack tray of
>>cheez-doodles..."
>>
>>"If I have to watch those same three holovids *again*, I'm going to go
>>berserk... can't we get some new ones at our next landfall?"
>
>You're making a very good point here, even if you don't know it. 

<grin> Thank you... I think.

>The PCs
>should be allowed to make that choice. You should impose appropiate
>penalties for such skimping... but in role-playing terms, not a blanket,
>non-negotiable fee. I mean,  I don't mind the locals on a space station
>or a desert planet stiffing a captive customer over some very expensive
>water or the SMWU (Spaceship Maintenance Workers Union) in a Class A
>Starport gouging them over a spring cleaning, but such things should be
>something the players could anticipate and deal with. Stocking up on
>canned goods when they get a good deal, skipping a cleaning until they
>get to a Class C starport (or doing it themselves) etc. It might even
>make a good lure or reward. 10 cases of air filters at half price, say,
>instead of a cash reward.

And here I agree with you. I don't hold them strictly to the numbers all the
time, and I'm not going to give them grief about making enough money to just
*pay* it. OK, paying off the *note* on the ship, now that's another story!
They're going to have to *work* to get that.

Also, are they going to charge standard rates for passengers? If so, then
they better have standard facilities and services, or word will spread. I
guess it just comes down to how tight-fisted you want them to be, and how
short a fiscal leash you keep them on. I prefer a loose leash, and so I just
charge them the flat rate and have done with it. If my players *really*
wanted to quibble over it, well, I'd deal with it, but the folks I've played
with were willing to just let it slide.

On a related note, I agree wholeheartedly with the idea someone mentioned a
while back, though.... your Free Traders can't make money at standard rates,
so let them charge whatever they can get away with. It keeps them hopping,
and gives the referee a much bigger fiscal carrot to dangle (and stick to
wave). They'll get the small stuff that falls through the cracks...
production overruns, people going to out-of-the-way places, smuggling runs,
*urgent* cargoes, that sort of thing. Much more interesting than simply
"hauling goods from Point A to Point B... repeat as necessary".

>One final question: Is it 2000 _local_ credits per occupancy or 2000
>Crimp (Credits Imperial) per occupancy? 

Dunno. I never fooled much with exchange rates, as my players didn't want to
do that much paperwork. Anyone else got any comments?

Michael


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:18:01 -0700
Subject: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Well, here I go again.  

(Shhhhhh!  I'm hunting wabbit, er, I mean, de perfect system)



I've come up with a change in the way I calculate target numbers, and I thought I would 
share it with all who are interested.

First off, I'm using the difficulty system that I developed for "Ken's Task Fix 
Prototype"--which I posted last week.  I've play tested this system, and I'm very happy 
with the results.  I think it is a keeper--it makes impossible tasks impossible while 
providing good chances, but not unrealistic ones, for the low target numbers.  See that 
post, or e-mail me, if you are interested in a discussion of how the probabilities turn 
out using this system.

A quick review:
This system is a very easy fix for those interested in staying close to published T4 
rules but who also want to make impossible tasks more impossible to achieve.  To use it, 
just change the amount of dice thrown for Staggering and Impossible difficulty throws.
		Easy		1.5/Auto
		Average		2
		Difficult	2.5
		Formidable	3
		Staggering	4
		Impossible	5



But, I digress.  This has nothing to do with calculation of target numbers.

The new target number:
Some of you may recall that I posted a target number system that included aptitude.  It 
was only a prototype, and when I play tested it, I noticed that the aptitude variable 
really downgraded the importance of the skill level.  

One of my goals was to increase the importance of skill level, so I trashed the aptitude 
idea.  It was too much to keep up with anyway--I want an easy system that fits T4 like a 
glove.

So, I've gone back to the simple way T4 does target numbers, by simply adding skill 
level and attribute, with a little twist.

The twist is this--double the skill level and half the attribute.

		Target number = (2 x skill level) + (attribute / 2)      round up

This system puts an emphasis on the skill--not the attribute.  I believe that a 
character should be able to learn a skill and not be overpowered by a low characteristic 
score.  The skill level should be most important.  At the same time, the attribute score 
should have a significant impact on success of a throw.  

Take, for example, the Pilot-1, Dex-10 vs. Pilot-4, Dex-6 problem.  I've had this 
problem with T4 for a while now.  In T4, the Pilot-1 person has a better chance of 
succeeding than the Pilot-4 person.  Target number of 11 for Pilot-1 guy vs. 10 for 
Pilot-4 guy?  I mean, I know that Dex-10 is great, but Dex-6 isn't that bad.  And look 
at the skill differences!  Anybody with Pilot-4 should be able to fly the socks off a 
person with Pilot-1, regardless of their Dex.

This new calculation fixes that problem nicely.  The Pilot-1 person has a target number 
of 7 while the Pilot-4 person has a target number of 11.  Hmm.  I like that spread--it 
gives meaning to having a high level skill. 

I play tested this system earlier tonight in my campaign, and I like it.  I really like 
it.  It's simple.  It's easy to do, and it is close to the T4 system but still fixes 
what I want it to fix.

The numbers are close to the T4 numbers, too.  Look at a couple of tests...

The average character (skill-2, attribute-7) has a target number of 8--which produces 
average percentage numbers on the difficulty table (with either my or T4's system).

A bad assed character, skill-7 and attribute-15, has the same target number either 
way--which I like.  Target number of 22--percentages remain the same.

A pitiful character, skill-1 and attribute-4, still has a chance, but is penalized for 
being deficient in both skill and attribute.  Target number 4.

Most of all, it really fixes our problem from the pilot example above, and it encourages 
players to improve their skills, not their attributes.  

T4, as it stands in the main book, places the emphasis of improvement on attributes.  
Improve one attribute, and you've improved several of your skills.  This new system 
shifts the emphasis to what it should be on--the skills.

Well, I think I've got my new system.  The quick difficulty fix combined with this 
target number calculation takes care of any problems I had with the T4 task system, and 
it does it without any tables, compatibliity problems, or design incongruities.  The 
glove fits.  

I do all of the math before hand, then record the target numbers on the character's 
sheet.  In the "Base Characteristic" column, I have the target numbers in parentheses 
next to the specific attribute.  All my players have to do is look at their skill on 
their sheets, and the target number is before them.  

Now, this is better than the MT system.  I'm a happy camper.  I got my cake, and I'm 
about to dig in.

So, what do you think?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Monday, 21 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 584

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: World populations
         2. Essen Games Fair: T4 and Bits!
         3. Re: Personal Pizeo Power Sources
         4. Re: Velocity at jump exit? (NO bombardment!!!)
         5. OrkCon in Germany
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #582
         7. [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
         8. Re: Where is everybody?
         9. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
        10. (Starship) economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:01:35 +0200
Subject: Re: World populations

>My assumptions may or may not be faulty, but Traveller's assumptions
>definitely are. Any assumptions that makes the population distributions on
>Terran-norm worlds EXACTLY the same as on worlds with insidious atmospheres
>are faulty.

<rant mode ON>
Well, the Traveller pop distributions are flawed and everybody agrees on
that(+) but do we wan't to change them? Rewrite all published data or use
the new rules on newly generated systems? IG had a great opportunity to
rewrite world gen when they decided to trash the published data but they
failed to do so because (IMO) of their and former GDWs constant use of
"Reprint the old stuff, gamers are idiots so they'll gladly pay for the
same stuff again".

The reason to stick with the old system is the enormous amount of generated
material out there and if you don't like the rules; change them.

<rant mode OFF>


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:00:52 MET
Subject: Essen Games Fair: T4 and Bits!

I have been to Essen and finally got my hands on the new Traveller!
I liked it a lot, but it seems to be missing the advanced Character 
creation rules. Anybody know more about this? Will they be added in a 
later release or in a special supplement? I always liked the advanced 
rules better for they gave much more detail to the whole process! I 
was amazed at the price- range, though: From 35-56 Marks! Well, 
that's the free market, i guess! 

I also bought "The long Way home",  although i thought it to be quite 
expensive, bt what the heck, you only live once! I read over it once 
and like what i've seen so Far, especially the return to the good old 
nugget format! Good work, BITS! I'll be looking forward to any future 
releases. 
Only gripe: It was almost impossible to find, for only one 
booth had it, and nobody else even knew of it. 
You probably should advertise it's existence at the distributors! 

And, of course, i took the opportunity to stock up on the older 
adventures and supplements!

Sadly, i didn't meet any of the ImpGames Staff! Hadn't they said they 
would be there? Not as far as i know!
Well, what the heck, till later, 

V.A.G.                                              FNORD!

- ------ Volker A. Greimann.......Grei5001@uni-trier.de ----
- ------ I play Traveller,I Play INWO,I play Diplomacy  ---- 

- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!"

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:19:00 +0200
Subject: Re: Personal Pizeo Power Sources

>So when you charge from one battery on the belt your movements begin
>recharging it.  And when you need a reload you could charge from another
>battery on the belt while the other recharges.  This design would delay the
>'dancing' when you run out of ammo in the gun.
>
>Any ideas or thoughts.
>I realize my idea sounds weak, but I like the pizeo crystol idea, so I'd
>appreciate
>anyone's thoughts.

It takes a while to 'dance' up the necessary energy for a decent gunshot.
The idea seems ridicelous right now but I'll do some calculations and come
back.


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:27:44 +0200
Subject: Re: Velocity at jump exit? (NO bombardment!!!)

If the jump is tied to a large mass (planet/gasgiant/star) then one could
argue that one exits the jump at the new mass's inertial system. This makes
you exit at a standstill no matter your speed at jump and also abolishes
the problem with relative starsystems vectors.
The idea about using your jump vector to reduce time at exit was allowed in
DGP's Starships Operators Handbook but everything from DGP is probably
"uncanonized" by IG.

I'm toying with the idea of jumps only possible near large masses (both
entry and exits) which would rule out deepspace jumps (which ARE "canon"
according to Twilights peak) but would solve the relative vectors problem
and also give some credence to the importance of the "mains". With
deepspace jumping why would anybody follow the main if he can have
collapsible fuel to make several J1 jumps to destination?


/Anders Backman



------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:30:45 +0100
Subject: OrkCon in Germany

Ken Whitman (20 Oct 1996 17:31:11 -0500) said:

>If you live in Germany, and want to meet Ken Whitman or Lester Smith come
>to ORKCON. It is run by Robert Moore, the owner of Wizards Circle (a RPG
>Store).
>
>If you live in america this is your chance to go!!!! Round Trip tickets are
>now $450 bucks or less to Germany and it is being held on a U.S. army base
>(where people know how to speak english.  Its NOV 1-4 in Schwinfurt,
>GERMANY.
>
>Contact Imperium Games at 414-249-9456
>or Robert Moore (who speeks great english) in Germany at 011-49-9721-299180

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) will be at OrkCon. At Ken's
invitation, we will be:

* running participation/demonstration games

* running demonstrations (and distributing initial versions) of the beta
Dulinor Traveller suite of programs

* running the deathmatch game which proved so popular at Euro GEN CON

* running the BITS tournament game with sets of our full colour deckplans

* selling copies of the first licensed Milieu 0 adventure: The Long Way Home

* signing up new members for BITS

* dressing up in Imperial uniforms (at least Jo will be...) :-)

See you there!

Andy ;-)


------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:45:06 +1000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #582

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 20:36 BST-1
> Subject: Re: We have no *Canon* today!
> 
> In-Reply-To: <199610200622.QAA14866@curie.dialix.com.au>
> 
> > > I count any licensed product - the DGP stuff, for example - as
canon.
> > > 
> > Hmm. So Jump Missile Message drones (in a licensed product) *are*
canon?
> > And using Black Globes/Capacitors to power Jumps (from "High Guard")
*are*
> > canon? And chemical lasers (from TNE/FF&S) *are* canon? And *both*
HePlaR
> > *and* Thruster Plates, despite being mutually exclusive in TNE, are
> > "canon" ... as are the one year power supply for thruster plates *and*
the
> > 30/90 power supply (CTrav and MTrav).
> 
> Let me rephrase: things are canon until invalidated or superceded by a
later 
> product.

Which means that there *is* no "canon". It's simply at the designer's whim
(which is what I said). So, for example, if Marc says that "Virus never
happened, it was all a nightmare (shades of *Dallas* ;-) being had by
Strephon", then Virus ceases to be canon. Or if a "licensed *official*
Traveller product" states that Grandfather was all a myth emplaced by the
Hivers as part of a psychohistory manipulation for unknowable (to us poor
sucker humans) purposes, well, then *that* is "canon". Or if Marc decides
that the ultimate weapon in Traveller is the ubiquitious large asteroid at
.01c ;-), then *that* is canon?

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 21:32:37 -0400
Subject: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

Just so that people can distinguish between the times when I'm answering a
Traveller question and when I'm just foisting my opinions off on everyone
else, I'll be putting that "[Traveller Answers]" tag in the subject line of any
"official answers" I post.  This _should_ make it easier for folks who want
to search for Official Answers, too.

There's a bit of a backlog of questions, and I'm getting to them as quickly
as I can; please be a bit patient.  I'll try to take them in the order that
I recieved them.


"David Blustein" <dtb@nascrag.org> asked:
> Dear G.., uh, Derek, er, which name do you prefer I use?

Whichever.  I've gone by "wildstar" on the 'net, ever since the days when
BITNET CHAT ran at SUNYVM, so I still use it as my 'net "handle".  It also
makes it easy to remember my e-mail address: wildstar@qrc.com.

> Page 89, Spacecraft
>  The description states, "Such a maneuver is possible for streamlined
>  and partially streamlined hulls (configurations 1 to 6)." and
>  "Dispersed structures and planetoids, however, cannont land ..."

Oops.  This part is a hold-over from Classic Traveller Book 5, High Guard.
It's completely misleading, and should have been changed.

The rules that should be there are about the types of streamlining (or lack
thereof) for Traveller hulls.  There are four now, in T4: Airframe,
Streamlined, Unstreamlined, and Planetoid.

- - Airframe hulls have aerodynamic control and lifting surfaces (or a lifting
body or flying wing design of some type) that enable it to perform
atmospheric flight.  Airframe hulls may scoop gas giants for fuel, and may
land and take off from any world with an atmosphere of thin or better.  They
may land on airless (or trace) worlds if the ship is equipped with contra-grav,
or has more acelleration than the surface gravity of the world.

- - Streamlined hulls are faired over for high-speed passage through an
atmosphere, but don't have control and lifting surfaces.  Streamlined hulls
may scoop gas giants for fuel, and may land and take off from any world
(regardless of atmosphere) if the ship is equipped with contra-grav, or has
more acelleration than the surface gravity of the world.

- - Unstreamlined hulls are not faired, and no provision has been made for
atmospheric flight.  Unstreamlined hulls may NOT scoop for fuel, and may
only land on airless (or trace) worlds, if the ship is equipped with
contra-grav or has more acelleration than the surface gravity of the world.
Attempting to operate an unstreamlined hull within an atmosphere is
inherently risky; the referee should generate piloting tasks based on the
maneuvers attempted and the individual situation.

- - Planetoid hulls are made from hollowed-out planetoids (asteriods).  Such
ships may NOT land on ANY world, and may NOT scoop for fuel.  Attempting to
land on a world will probably destroy the ship.

The QSDS system in T4 has hulls of the first three configurations.
Planetoid hulls will be available from the Naval Architect's Handbook.

>  Where is a table describing hull configurations 1 to 6, dispersed
>  structures, and planetoids?

The reference is obsolete; there isn't a table of hull configurations
anymore; instead they're described by shape and streamlining (the
descriptive "Streamlined Sphere" - or even "Sphere S" is easier to
understand than a letter/number code).

For any old-timers out there, the closest thing to a "dispersed structure"
would be "Unstreamlined Open Frame".  Planetoids aren't included in T4 basic
book, but rules for building planetoid hulled ships are being created now.

> Page 90, Sandcasters
>  If a sand cloud is interposed between a defending ship and incoming
>  attacks, and sand blocks beam weapons (including lasers), how do the
>  defender's laser-based sensors penetrate the cloud to detect incoming
>  attacks?

They don't.  The term "laser sensors" in this case means sensors that detect
lasers (and not lasers that are used as sensors - the term for that is
ladar).  These sensors detect when an enemy is about to fire (from a
previous near miss, or from non-weapon laser pulses sent by the enemy's
fire-control system to measure range or adjust the weapon's optics).

After the sand is launched, lasers from the enemy ship will be quite
noticeable as they hit the sand, which will scatter the laser beam in all
directions (a lot like the way a dense fog will scatter light from a
flashlight).

Most advanced starships use wide-band EMS (Electro-Magnetic Spectrum) sensor
systems as their primary means of sensing the enemy.  While some bands of the
electromagnetic spectrum will be blocked (by sand, or natural noise
sources like a nearby star), other bands won't be - operated by a good
sensor tech, the EMS system will still be able to track the enemy.

> Page 94, Sensors
>  The description states, "The Improved package increases the range of
>  the basic sensors."  What is the range for basic sensors?

The ranges are given by the USD ratings for the sensors.  There are three
letter/number codes in the rating: A# P# J#.  These stand for the Active,
and Passive range of the sensor, and the Jamming power.  The ranges are
expressed in tenths of a light-second (0.1 L-S is about 30,000km).  The
jammer number is the jamming DM used in step 5 of the space combat system.

Therefore, a TL-11 Basic sensor suite (USD A0 P2 J0) has an active range of
0 light-seconds (0 means "less than one"), a passive range of 2
light-seconds (about 60,000km), and no jammer (a jammer has to have a power
of at least 1 to be useful - see step 5 of the space combat system).
The TL-11 Improved sensor suite has an active range of 1 (30,000km), but is
otherwise the same.

The actual ranges of the various suites change with TL, as well - a TL-12
Basic sensor suite is better than a TL-10 Improved suite.  Particularly at
the lower TLs, there's little improvement between "basic" and "improved"
sensors (the ranges improve, but they're still less than 0.1 L-S).

All of these ranges are the "short range" of the sensor - the range at which
the sensor is most accurate, and detection is most reliable.  All of the
sensor systems can detect the presence of a ship (even if the sensor data
isn't good enough for a firing solution) to at least 16 times the listed
range, and possibly more.  For most sensors, this is beyond Long range; even
for the shortest-ranged sensors, it's at least Medium range.

> Page 94, Communications
>  The description details three ranges used by the QSDS communications
>  packages: 3000km, 30,000km, and 1000AU.
>  Are there space combat range equivalents for these distances?

The ranges listed are the "sort range" of the communicators - the range at
which reception is assured (assuming the reciever has the same range
rating).  You _can_ communicate at longer distances, depending on the skill
of the operator (the referee should assign a communicator task; as a rule of
thumb, increase the difficulty one step each time the attempted range
doubles).

An AU is an Astronomical Unit, the mean distance between the Earth and the
Sun (or about 150 million km).  A communicator with a 1000AU range can
reliably communicate with any appropriate reciever anywhere within the same
star system.  This exceeds the longest space combat range by a large amount.

The space combat system in T4 is abstract, and the ranges are
"indeterminate", which means we can't assign useful numbers to the
ranges.  As a rough approximation, though, 3000km is shorter than
"Very Short" range, while 30,000km is somewhere around "Short".

Laser and Maser communicators are "tight beam" - in other words, you must
know the location of the reciever, and the beam is established directly
between transmitter and reciever (and not broadcast to all of space).  Radio
communicators are broadcast, so that everyone who is in range and listening
on the frequency can hear the message.

> Page 100, Slow Boat, Ship's Boat, Pinnace, Launch
> Page 101, Modular Cutter, Light Fighter

All of the small craft are probably incorrect to some degree or another;
they were converted from previous editions of Traveller, and not designed
using the starship design system (we were working on the QSDS and SSDS
systems at the time, and the small craft "fell through the cracks" - sorry).

The USD fuel numbers are likely wrong; if you need to know how much fuel
each one carries, go with the number in the text (that is, the smaller
number) until better information is available.

> Page 100, Subsidized Merchant
>  Should the Subsidized Merchant have one ship's vehicle: a 20-ton
>  Launch?

Yes.  It's carried in a streamlined external grapple.  The price of the ship
does not include the launch.

> Page 101, Subsidized Liner
>  Does the Subsidized Liner carry a 30-ton Ship's Boat or a 20-ton
>  Launch?

The 20-ton Launch.  It's carried internally, in a minimal Hangar.  The price
of the ship does not include the launch.

> Page 101, Patrol Cruiser
>  If the Patrol Cruiser carries 162.2 tons of fuel, a 30-ton Ship's
>  Boat, and an 8-ton GCarrier (which totals 200.2 tons excluding
>  drives, et al.), how does it manage this with a 200 ton hull?

The 200-ton figure is wrong; it's a 400 ton hull.

>  Also, how is it possible to have 10 crew?

It's not - the ship requires 14 crew, plus marines.

>  The command crew section of the QSDS on Page 95 implies that a
>  regular crew of 8 would have 1 command crew member (for a total crew
>  of 9) and a regular crew of 9 would have 2 command crew (for a total
>  crew of 11).

Right.  A squad of marines adds another "command" crew, as well; this would
be the Marine Lieutenant; the marines would consist of 2 NCOs and 6 privates.

>  If there are two command crew, should there be a bridge?

Yes.

I don't know what happened to the Patrol Cruiser in the T4 rulebook.  Here's
a design that I'm reasonably confident of:

Patrol Cruiser
Tons:  400  Volume: 5600         Cost: 237.219
Crew:  17   Troops: 8            Passengers (L): 0
Cargo: 13   Controls: Bridge/Fib Tech Level: 12

 8 Size Rating                   3 Jump Rating
 4 Fire Control Rating           4 G Rating / Thruster
 2 Battery Mil Lsr 3-2-0-0       4 Power Plant Rating (850 MW)
 2 Battery Missile Barb 5 (4)    124.5 Fuel / Scoop / Purify
                                 0 Meson Screen Rating
                                 0 Sand Caster Rating
                                 0 Damper Rating
                                 A10 P4 J10 Sensors (TL12 Small Mil)
                                 10 Armor
                                 16 Structure

Crew Detail: 2 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 1 Astrogator, 1 Pilot, 4 Gunnery, 3
Command, 1 Medic, 1 Steward, 8 troops, 2 Supernumary.

Notes:  Based on a 400-ton Airframe Needle hull, he Patrol Cruiser has TL12
Advanced Commo, and a TL12 10-ton capcaity fuel purifier.  The ship carries a
30-ton Ship's Boat in an AirFrame Grapple, as well as an ATV.  There are 2
TL12 MFDs each capable of controlling 4 missiles. The Marines are quartered
in bunks, the Command staff in Large staterooms and the rest in small
staterooms.

A comment on the notation: the line "2 Battery Mil Lsr" means that there are
two independent batteries of Military Lasers; similarly "2 Battery Missile
Barb 5 (4)" means 2 independent batteries of missile barbettes; each
barbette has 5 ready missiles, and can control 4 of them in flight at once.

This ship does require a custom hull (available from the "Big Table of
Hulls), though a similar ship limited to 3G could be built from the QSDS
rules in T4.

OPINION: This ship would make an intersting vehicle for the PCs in an
"Imperial Navy" campaign.  On a frontier world (or a small cluster of them),
such a ship would be the only Imperial presence in maybe a month's travel. 
The supernumary crewmembers would be science or diplomatic specialists.  The
PCs could each play two or three characters.  With a little care, scenarios
could be designed so that each player only has to play one character at a
time.  For example, the PCs could each have a Marine character; plus a ship
character: Engineers, sensor techs, astrogator, pilot, gunner, and medic,
science, or diplomat would all be good choices.  Use the NPC Marines as
"spear carriers" and potential casualties.  I try to avoid putting a PC in
overall command of the ship.  Instead, I use an NPC captain to present the
current scenario to the PCs, and let them deal with it from there.

> Page 102, Scout/Courier
>  Should the Scout/Courier carry one ship's vehicle: an air/raft?

Yes.

> Page 102, Mercenary Cruiser
>  Should the Mercenary Cruiser have 3G acceleration?

No, 2G.

> Page 102, Far Trader
>  Should the Far Trader carry one ship's vehicle: an air/raft?

Yes.

> Pages 100-194, USPs
>  Should all USPs list ship's vehicles as shown in the USPs for the
>  Subsidized Liner and the Patrol Cruiser (both on Page 101)?

Yes.  I recommend using the format used above for the Patrol Cruiser for
describing QSDS ships; in particular, the Crew Detail is helpful when
trying to fit a ship to a group of PCs.  The Notes should always include
the TL and type of the commo system, the capacity of the fuel purifier,
and any carried craft.  If the ship includes any added MFDs (for controlling
missiles), a comment to this effect often helps clarify the battery
descriptions.  The description of the quarters is also very helpful in
figuring out how many of what kind of rooms are available.

>  Also, where in a USP is the electromagnetic masking rating recorded?

In the sensors section, after the sensor USD.  For example, it might read
something like  "A16 P8 J4 Sensors / Masking (TL-12 Lg Mil)".

There are no ships in the basic rules that have Stealth or Masking (a ship
may have one or the other, not both, since Masking is advanced stealth).  If
a ship were stealthed, it would show "Stealth" in the same location as the
masking would appear.

There is (currently) no way to build a Stealth or Masking hull in QSDS.

> Page 110, Standard Military Laser Batteries
>  Should the first six entries be TL9, the next ten entries be TL10,
>  the following six entries be TL11, and the remainder of the table
>  remain unchanged?

No.  The "Standard" QSDS lasers are grav-focussed tunable lasers.  Below
TL-11, there's no way to cram one of reasonable power and range into a
turret or barbette - it's so large it has to go into a bay.

I have the designs for non-tunable non-grav, X-ray lasers at TL-9 and TL-10,
and these will go into the next edition of QSDS, so that small, low-tech ships
have some laser options (these lasers will be an improvement over all the
existing lasers, up to TL-14 at least - the drawback is that they don't work
in an atmosphere).

The tables presented in the T4 rulebook give turrets (the first group at
each TL) and barbettes (the second group) for each TL.  Notice that the
barbettes are larger, and have better range and damage.

>  There is an USP entry giving a rating of "9-5-3-12". Is this
>  correct?

No.  It shoud be "9-8-5-3".

>  Also, that USP rating seems weaker than the preceeding entry (except
>  for the long range part of the USP). Should that be so?

No.  It's a typo.

> Page 111, Shops and Labs
>  Does this imply that a ship with a complement of 120 or more that
>  installs a sickbay must commit 480 tons or more space for the
>  sickbay?

Not unless you expect the whole crew to be sick at the same time.  ;-) 
What that's trying to say is that an 8 ton sickbay has two beds.

> Pages 89-113, Chapter 8, Spacecraft
>  Is it possible to correctly build the standard ship designs using
>  the QSDS?

It was supposed to be; there appear to be a few designs (the liner, and the
patrol cruiser) that don't match any of the available hulls.

>  Also, are there any limits on how many turrets, barbettes, or bay
>  weapons that may be installed in a ship?

Surface area, power, and crewing.  And, of course, cost.

> For example, could twelve
>  (12) turrets be installed in a 100-ton ship? At one time there was a
>  limit of one (1) hardpoint per 100 tons of ship. Is this no longer
>  true?

Right.  Consider the "1 hardpoint per 100 tons" a rule of thumb, and not a
rule of the design system.  Note that a dozen turrets would use 40% of the
volume of a 100-ton hull, and the power plant to support them would be
another 15%.  While you could possibly make a special-purpose design (say, a
laser-armed System Defense Boat) this heavily armed, a general-purpose ship
like a Scout/Courier couldn't support this much weaponry.

> Page 117, Sensor Action
>  What package from Chapter 8 must be installed in a ship to allow the
>  use of the masking DM?

Masking (and Stealth) are features of the hull design, and not the sensor
system.  There aren't any masked or stealthed hulls in QSDS.  This is an
option in SSDS (in the forthcoming Starships suppliment).  I am hopeful that
a future version of QSDS will include some masked or stealthed hulls.

> Page 120, Sensor Locks and Detection
>  Does this imply that a 0 Sensor Rating gives no chance for
>  detection?

In general, sensors with a rating of 0 aren't useful in combat, although
they serve well in rezendevous and docking, and to detect ships even if they
don't give a firing solution.

However, since the sensors DO exist, even if they're not very powerful,
there's a small chance.  If it's ever important, treat sensors with a rating
of 0 just like those with a 1, except they may only be used against targets
at Very Short range.

Note, however, that jammers with a rating of 0 don't exist.  A 0 jamming
rating means "no jammer"; a 0 sensor rating means "not enough range to be
useful".

> Thanks for your time. Please feel free to bend, fold or mutilate this 
> message if I've completely missed the boat. :-)

Very good questions; thank you!


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team Member

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:52:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Where is everybody?

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

[snip]
>PS. Marathon fans! I'm working on a Subsidized Merchant Marathon level.
>Expect to see it soon, barring any influence from those pesky SolSec
>agents. Anyone else working on Traveller themed Marathon levels?
>
[snip]

        Woo hoo!  Happy happy carnage carnage!  If I can make a suggestion,
a physics model where the MA-75 has a theta error of 3 and the WSTE-M's
have a theta error of 15, and fire 32 pellets (that each do approx 5
damage) instead of ten is quite interesting.  I also like de-accurizing the
pistols a little.  As well, increasing bullet damages proportionately so
that a shot from a .44 is always fatal really livens things up a bit.  Adds
a whole new dynamic to the game, especially when you've got the Security
BOBs behaviour set to hate your guts >:).



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:52:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

Dave Golden wrote:

>
>        I haven't really been able to give much time to following the task
>system quotes, but I decided to do a "Me To" and share a task system I
>developed for myself. The basic driver was that I wanted
>        (A) Impossible tasks should truly be near-impossible, requiring high
>skill and characteristic to even try. If I'm going to assign an Impossible
>difficulty ...
>        (B) Weighted Skill more than Characteristic
>        (C) Simple -- I really liked the MT system where each level was 4
>away from the previous. OTOH, I grew to really like TNE's use of d20 (heresy
>though it be ... you should have heard me when I first opened my box and out
>popped the non-sixsided thingy)
>
>        Here's the basic system -- roll under the target number on d20. Your
>target number is the base difficulty plus skill plus 1/3 characteristic. A
>difficult task has a base number of 5 (25% chance of success), and the
>increment is 5. Hence,
>
>        Easy            15
>        Routine         10
>        Difficult       5
>        Formidable      0
>        Impossible      -5
>
>        I had a few minutes free at work, so I whipped up a spreadsheet to
>compare mine, TNE's and MT's systems. Unfortunately, I'm not
>probability-smart enough to calculate MMT chances of success. I wanted to
>see the range of low, average and high characteristic (3,7,11) and skill
>(1,3,5) to see how it varied. The table lists the probability of success at
>each task, skill increasing to the right and characteristic increasing down.
>Comments are welcome ...

        I like it!  Mean, lean, and simple!

        Comments: as I pointed out a while back, in some instances skill
will  outweigh characteristic in determining the outcome: in the case of
two people with int 11, one with mathematics (or edu) 3, the one with the
higher math skill will probably do better, because mathematics is a very
complex skill.  To reiterate the example I used, although my personal
bodily characteristics were more suited to fencing than my old fencing
coach's, the fact that his skills were so well-developed compared to mine
meant that it was no contest all the way.

        OTOH, in other situations, characteristic is all that counts: e.g.
lifting large heavy objects, running long distances, being a minor noble,
etc.

        In yet others, characteristic is more important, but skill still
counts.  To borrow Ross Coburn's example, take a 5'3" <evil grin>
basketball player with middling skill playing basketball with somebody
that's 6'6" with no skill.  The short player has an edge until the tall
player gets a clue, at which point the short player is in trouble because
height and dexterity really, really count in basketball, and the skills
involved are fairly simple (dribbling and throwing balls, basically).

        I'd argue that situations where a skill alone, regardless of
characteristics, would determine outcome, are impossible.  You're always
mediating, or using, your skill with a characteristic.

        All this system of yours needs (IMHO) is to take this into account
(skill-primary, characteristic-only, and characteristic-primary types of
situation) and I think that it'd rule.  It's simple because of the single
die used, and it has nice high resolution because the single die is a d20
(I don't like d6's; I find that anything under a d10 is lousy for
resolution; otoh Ross thinks that resolution isn't neccessary).  I'd
suggest simply reversing the weight you give to skills & characteristics in
characteristic-primary rolls, and maybe just tripling the characteristic
and then dividing by two to get the modifier for characteristic-only rolls?



------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:12:07 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: (Starship) economics

Michael Nutt writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
>"OK, you haven't gotten any more food in .... six months, since that was the
>last time you paid your life support money. You've entered jumpspace, the
>galley cabinets are empty. Your gunner is looking at you with ...hungry...
>eyes. What do you do, Mr. Donner?" (cannibalism joke there, for the
>non-Americans reading this)

While I agree with you on the principle, this particular implementation
reminds me of the GM who informed his players that they had been tramping
over rough terrain since daybreak and that their feet were now completely
in tatters. Seems thay had forgotten to tell him that they put on their
boots when they got up!

><shrug> Who knows? Depends on your ship, how much servicing you need, how
>much in the way of supplies, and just what the Dockworker's Union lets you
>get away with paying. For trained environmental techs, I'd say 20 Cr per
>hour might even be a *low* guess, but I *like* keeping my players searching
>for cash! And what kind of enviromental tech will be willing to work for the
>absurdly low wage you mention (100 Cr/40 man-hours = 2.5Cr/hour!! Waaaaaaay
>below any kind of minimum wage, *especially* for trained techs).

Yes, for trained techs it is, but not for simple clean-up crewbeings. It's
roughly 2.5 times survival wages.

>>>bringing aboard all your new food supplies, 
>>
>>Cr 100 per crew, Cr 70 per passenger...
> 
>And this number strikes me as low, especially for anyone charging the rates
>that standard passage costs. 

I couldn't agree withyou more, but I'd be inclined to lower the ticket costs
myself.

>And why on earth would you have better food for the crew than the passengers?

I don't. 100 Cr per fortnight is the cost of good food. But passengers only 
spend 9 days on the ship in an average jump. So they only burden the
environment 2/3rds as much as a crewbeing. And while Cr30is too paltry to
bother with, 1/3rd of Cr2000 is not hay.

>Who knows? Do any of your crew have special requirements? What does it cost
>to provide that certain "atmospheric tang" that Crewman A wants in his
>cabin? How do you purify your drinking water, and what does that cost? What
>if you need more air, and this is a highport? What additives do you need for
>your recycling system?

Start by assuming standard human passengers and crew since that is the most
common species in Imperial space. And my point is that these costs should
be proportionate to similar costs outside spaceships. One of the problems
here is that Cr 2000 is a lot more than you think.

>>I thought the crew did that.
> 
>Yes, but this is when you *pay* for it, rather than assessing you a 2 Cr
>charge every time a light bulb burns out or something. That's why it's
>called "overhead charge".

Sure, but the overhead is far more than I can account for. Again, the
problem is that you don't realize how expensive it is.

>>>(you *better* clean the 'fresher in those High Passage cabins, or you'll 
>>>never get another repeat passenger!),
>>
>>Hardly a concern for most Free Traders.
> 
>Well, if you don't have any passengers, you won't need to pay the overhead
>charge, now, will you?   :)

You said _repeat_ passenger. Most Free Traders don't have regular passengers.

><shrug> Steam-cleaning carpets. Flushing airducts. Purging waste systems.
>Scrubbing all your food storage and preparation areas. That's just what
>springs to mind immediately...

Fine, but the problem remains the same. It's not that I object to assessing
the players an overhead for such things, it's that it's so unbelivable
expensive.

>>You can REPLACE the food a passenger eats in 14 days for Cr100. Having
>>10% of it spoil wouldn't put a dent in the budget, and with modern food
>>preservation methods, let alone futuristic, that is highly unlikely.
> 
>As I said above, I think that number is way too low. My ballpark guess,
>based on the (soc*250Cr)/month number for food, clothing, lodging, & etc.,
>is that that number is low by a factor of 4, at least, maybe more. 

Ah, there's the rub. That "Soc*250Cr" figure is a) A Megatraveller phenomenon
that did not apply to Classic Traveller nor does it apply to T4 (that I have
noticed), and b) completely bogus.

Think about it: the difference between the living expenses of the lowest 
level of a society (Soc 1) and the next higher level is supposed to be 100%!
Do you really think that is realistic? Contrarywise, the difference between
the living expenses of the gentry (Soc 10) and the lower nobility (Soc 11)
is supposed to be a measly 10%! Does that ring true to you?

Howsomever, according to page 64 of T4, good food is Cr 200 per month, good
lodgings is likewise Cr 200 per month. Play with that figure a little and
you'll get a minimum (subsistence level) wage of 1 Cr per hour. Oh, and I
guess you're right about the trained technician bit. A good starship 
engineer gets Cr 4800 per month, which works out at Cr 160 per day or Cr 20
per hour. However, compared to a retirement pay (after 5 terms) of Cr 11 per 
day, this is a fantastically high wage. My guess is that starship crew
recieve considerably higher pay than ground-based crew. (Actually, my guess
is that this is another place where noone has bothered to think the system
through, but saying that isn't "playing the game".) 

>Also, regarding spoilage, have you ever worked in any sort of food service
>operation? I'm a perishables supervisor for a local grocery store, and we
>have lots of fresh foods that just don't last very long, even with
>refrigeration. Ever eaten hamburger that was six days old? 

I've eaten plenty of defrosted dinners that tasted OK. Still, as I said,
even with a wastage of 10 or 20% (which I don't think is all that likely,
but I'll grant it FPOA), the cost is only 10-20 Cr per passenger.

>If I pay High Passage prices, or even Middle Passage prices, and I have to 
>eat frozen meals, or the Traveller equivalent of MRE's, I'm gonna be pissed 
>off. I think you're overestimating the longevity of the galley stores.

OK, I admit I was thinking about canned and frozen goods, not fresh food. So
you have a point here. OTOH, do you really think food preservation techniques
are going to stay at present-day level from now on? No improvement at all at
higher TLs?

>>But the rule dosen't say "Cr 2000 per occupant if you want to run a
>>regular passenger ship" it says "Cr 2000 per occupant, period". Besides,
>>even a regular passenger ship dosen't pay for nothing.
> 
>True. It's a rough number, given as an approximation. 

Yep. But I believe that the approximation is unreasonable.

><shrug> As I said above, I think your "200 Cr" number is way off. 

A quick check of the rules will show you that it is spot on.

>My "monthly food/clothing/lodging,etc." bill comes to around US$1000, and I'm
>not living in a very outrageous fashion. I don't have Soc 4, either <grin>.
>Call my monthly bill $300 for groceries/food ($10/day, for 3 meals and
>snacks). My diet gets me by, but it's not good enough for a starship crewman
>or passenger, because I don't have the assorted overheads they'd have,
>either, and I'm not eating enough "good stuff" to keep a passenger or
>crewman happy. Check with some folks who've been in the Navy... nothing
>shoots morale on a ship at sea as bad as having bad chow.

The Cr 200 is for "good food". Luxury food will run you to Cr. 600 per
month.

>My own personal games usually have a *very rough* approximation of 2 Cr =
>US$ 1, but this is obviously open to fudging either up or down. I personally
>figure that about 2/3 of that overhead amount gets spent on food, etc., and
>the rest gets spent on other various life-support related things, and minor
>fungibles.

Actually, that's the same sort of figure for the "other stuff" that I'd
consider reasonable. I have been working with Cr 100 for food and Cr 100
for the rest. If I accept that the food ought to be luxury rather than just 
good then the cost for a passenger would be 200 for food and 100 for the
rest. A crewmember would cost 300 for food and 100 for the rest. An 
overhead of 300 per passenger and 400 per crew. That sounds quite
reasonable; and on a Free Trader the PCs have the option of cutting this by 
accepting something a little less satisfying than smoked salmon and caviar...

Of course, with the overhead lowered I'd also lower the standard fares.
OTOH I'd let jump-2 ships charge at least twice up for a jump-2.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #584
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 21 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 585

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Errata
         2. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
         3. Re: Velocity at jump exit? (NO bombardment!!!)
         4. Why I want Blank Areas
         5. Postal Employees and Stress
         6. Re: World Populations
         7. Re: Errata
         8. Re: Zuchai Crystals
         9. [Traveller Answer] Re: Vehicle Design 
        10. re: detecting things at distances
        11. Blank Wolrds
        12. Re: [Traveller Answer] Re: Vehicle Design 
        13. Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada
        14. Imperial Establishing Document
        15. Fall of civilization affecting hydrographics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Freeman <jfreeman@chrysalis.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:40:11 -0700
Subject: Errata

Open Letter to Imperium Games:

I realize no one is perfect and the odds of actually getting some rulebook 
publish with *no* errata are pretty long, but can't we at least aim for that?

Since there are a number of people on this list that are going to buy these 
products regardless - and since those same people are VERY good at finding 
mistakes - couldn't there be some way to get these people an "advance copy" to 
proof for you?

I mean, take some of the long-timers on this list, the ones that are brilliant at 
this sort of thing, and offer them a cheaply-printed, no-art kinda copy that they 
can review for "...you'll find various forms..." and missing jump-drive tables 
and what-not.  Seems like it wouldn't be *real* expensive to run off 20 or 30 
copies (just the rules, no cover or binding or anything) and send them to the 
people that 1)  already ordered the book anyway; and 2)  Have demonstrated some 
kinda skill at finding Traveller errata.  I haven't been on the list long enough 
to know who these people might be, but I bet you can already think of a few.

I don't mean to suggest that you folk aren't doing a real good job.  There's just 
no way you can possibly do as good a job at proofing the rules as 20 or 30 
TMLers... and since they're going to buy the books anyway, the only cost is in 
photocopying and shipping (and I think these folk will volunteer for proofing 
because they'd like to get the errors found and corrected *before* the book is 
printed).

Do please consider.  Seems like a very open, interactive kinda company and this 
would be a good use of the close contact you're maintaining with Traveller fans 
on the internet.

Oh, sort of a minor errata:  The chapter on Ground Combat says that combat is 
resolved just like using a skill, "see chapter 3".  There's nothing in chapter 3 
that describes how to use a skill (unless you count "see chapter 4).

Thanks for your time.



------------------------------

From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:06:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:
> - Unstreamlined hulls are not faired, and no provision has been made for
> atmospheric flight.  Unstreamlined hulls may NOT scoop for fuel, and may
> only land on airless (or trace) worlds, if the ship is equipped with
> contra-grav or has more acelleration than the surface gravity of the world.
> Attempting to operate an unstreamlined hull within an atmosphere is
> inherently risky; the referee should generate piloting tasks based on the
> maneuvers attempted and the individual situation.

Why can't thse maneuver in atmosphere with contragravity.  Seems like they
could fly as slow as they wanted since they don't have to worry about lift.
They should get penalties for high speed maneuvers (I suppose) but shouldn't
for low speed.

> - Planetoid hulls are made from hollowed-out planetoids (asteriods).  Such
> ships may NOT land on ANY world, and may NOT scoop for fuel.  Attempting to
> land on a world will probably destroy the ship.

Seems like a big rock wouldn't have any problem resting on the ground...
Assuming it can take 1 G of acceleration, it shouldn't have any problem with
a 1 G field generated by a planet...  You'll want to make sure that it rests
upright, of course... though with artificial gravity, that's just a
convenience...  Again, you're probably not going to want to move fast
in an atmosphere, but if it's got contragravity or thrust equal to weight,
it should be able to land...

> No.  The "Standard" QSDS lasers are grav-focussed tunable lasers.  Below
> TL-11, there's no way to cram one of reasonable power and range into a
> turret or barbette - it's so large it has to go into a bay.

Tunable over what frequencies?  Can they be tuned to the IR, X-Ray or
microwave range?  :)

> I have the designs for non-tunable non-grav, X-ray lasers at TL-9 and TL-10,
> and these will go into the next edition of QSDS, so that small, low-tech ships
> have some laser options (these lasers will be an improvement over all the
> existing lasers, up to TL-14 at least - the drawback is that they don't work
> in an atmosphere).

They don't work at all in an atmosphere?  Why is this?  do X-ray lasers
never work in atmosphere?

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:52:45 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Velocity at jump exit? (NO bombardment!!!)

 
> >First off, I'd say that unless you do something special, you have the
> >same velocity vector upon emerging from jump as when entering. This
> >does the least violence to normal phsyics. On the downside, it means
> >that you have to deal with the velocity difference between the system
> >you left and the system you are entering. 
> 
> My problem with *this* is in the basic definition of a vector... it is in
> relation to something else, like "the world you're leaving". OK, I'm willing
> to accept it if no other compromise can be worked out, but it still strikes
> me as inelegant.

Typical relative velocities between star systems will be under 100km/s.

100km/s is 6 hexes per turn in BL/BR.  So that means in game play
terms, when you jump in system you could roll 1d6, and it will take
that many half hours to match velocities with the new system.
Done.

> Nope, not good, but unavoidable, IMO. While *not* wanting to bring up the
> issue of orbital bombardment here, you could also use it to bring you in at
> a high enough velocity that all you'd have to do would be constantly
> decelerate to orbital velocity, in order to minimize your transit times
> coming in from 100 diameters, as no acceleration would be required (well,
> you see what I mean... I know acceleration is just deceleration in the
> opposite direction!).

I personally think the solution to the bombardment issue is
political/moral, not something to try and explain away by ignoring
physics.  World-killing is considered a horrible crime and is dealt
with serverely.  That leaves the nuts as a problem, but they'll have
easy access to nukes at that point in time as well.
 
> I'm afraid I just can't buy the idea of being able to adjust for the
> relative motion between star systems and yet not be able to handle the
> velocity acquired through using the maneuver drive. I compromise somewhat by
> allowing my players to just accelerate like mad for the 100-diameter limit
> with no required turnover, and rule that they get dropped out of jumpspace
> right on the 100-diameter limit of their target world, at rest with relation
> to the object creating the gravity well.It's a little arbitrary, true, but
> it's a sacrifice made for playability. you could also get into some double
> talk about "radiation flux" if players decide to come out of jumpspace with
> a large velocity vector, say "0.4c toward the mainworld" or something like
> that...   :)

That or let 'em keep the vector.  You could keep track of this with
a galactic eye view (a nightmare), or just treat it randomly at the
new system and require them to slow down.  Then they might have to
run like hell for the jump limit on the way out (pirates!) but they
pay for it with an equal number of hours slowing down a week later.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Oct 1996 12:48:50 GMT
Subject: Why I want Blank Areas

Let me explain _why_ I want official blank areas.  

When developing Traveller 'history', a lot of people try to tie their stories
into published information. In fact, many of Traveller's biggest
inconsistencies have come from someone treating a throwaway reference as
'canon' and extrapolating from it.  If I decide to change the world of
Sulieman (for example), then I have to change all references to Sulieman in
all published material.  In other words, with every new product I will have
to scan its library data to see if I have to alter anyting for my universe.

Now, some of us do that anyway.  (I know I do.)  But I'd like to keep the
rewriting to a minimum, and thus I think that placing some backwater areas
into official limbo is a reasonable solution.

Notice that I wrote "backwater".  Those of us that want to change the grand
sweep of Imperial history will do so anyway, rewriting entire sectors as we
choose; those of us that want to run low-key campaigns against the official
backdrop should have a quiet corner of the sandbox where we can play our
games in peace, but attached to the official universe so we can come out and
play with everyone else when we want to.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Oct 1996 12:53:00 GMT
Subject: Postal Employees and Stress

>   Also, if you had to deal with as much stress as the typical U.S. Postal
>employee, from irate customers to unreasonable supervisors, you might be
>tempted into looking for firearms too....

Sounds like my job.  Irate parents with lawyers.  Students in tears. 
Dangerous students held in school to keep tabs on them because they have been
kicked out of home.  And I _do_ go looking for firearms: I don't want my
students to be armed at all... :-(


Robert, bummed out after a long week.

------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 21 Oct 96 11:15:55 EDT
Subject: Re: World Populations

>         Colorado is not a nice place to live, no indeedy, it's very
> unpleasant, yeah, that's right, nobody wants to live here, in fact we all
> can't wait to move out, oh yes, nobody would want to move to Colorado ....

Yes, yes, you would not want to move here, ... err, there! But please do
vacation in Colorado and help keep the state green.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:46:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Errata

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Jeff Freeman wrote:

> Open Letter to Imperium Games:
> 
> I realize no one is perfect and the odds of actually getting some rulebook 
> publish with *no* errata are pretty long, but can't we at least aim for that?
[snip]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for showing so much concern over the products produced by Imperium 
Games.  Your suggestions all make sense, but your letter makes 
assumptions which are untrue.  Perhaps you only recently joined this 
list?  Many of these issues have come up on here in the past.

For instance, T4 was, indeed, proofread by several people outside of IG.  
However, the time constraints kept everyone from doing as thorough a job 
as would otherwise have been possible, and probably also kept IG from 
implementing every change that was suggested.

T4 was, I think, a special case.  First, the time frame was relatively 
short.  Second, we here on the TML and GDW-Beta convinced IG to change 
the starships section at the last second (which introduced many errors 
all by itself).

After the fact, IG has had T4 proofread by me (and others).  They're also 
aware of all the errata posted on this list.

So, we can expect version 1.1 of T4 to be far less error-filled (I 
hesitate to say it will be perfect - I've never seen a perfect RPG<G>).  

I believe that future projects will get continually better, in terms 
of editing, as IG improves its processes.  They will undoubtedly continue 
to have others edit their work.  They will also have more time available 
on future projects, so those editing jobs will be more thorough, and 
IG's implementation of the resulting editing changes will be more 
thorough as well.

I hope this helps to give you a better pricture of what IG is doing to 
improve product quality.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Zuchai Crystals

Here's what I found.  Note that I probably edited it somewhat,
but I can't remember who the original poster is and what I changed.
:)

The Zuchacell(TM) heavy battery line from GSbAG

The availability of adequate power is one of the limiting factors of
starship design. As soon as the Zuchai crystals were discovered
reseachers
realized that they were the most promising energy storing device.
However, the crystal structure cannot withstand the stresses
experienced
while energy is accumulated for more than a few hours. AFter these
the
crystal rearranges itself and all the energy accumulated is released
explosively.

Another disadvantage of the Zuchai crystals is that they keep memory
of
the way they have been charged. This is fact one of the main reasons
for
misjump, since the energy delivered to the lanthanum network in jump
drives is first temporarily stored in arrays of Zuchai crystals.

Various companies tried nevertheless to develop battery designs based
on the
properties of Zuchai crystals. The Zuchacell(TM) design is the most
successful and common one.

Zuchacells(TM) can only be built in size larger than 20 kl due to the
extensive controls and complex design. A jump drive engineering is
qualified
for the maintenance of a Zuchacell(TM) array.

A Zuchacell (TM) contains a redundant set of Zuchai crystals, a
governor,
and a small capacity standard battery to correct for the Zuchai
memory
effect. Energy is cycled through the reduntant crystal bank so that
each
single crystal does not remain charged for more than 1 hour. On
charge
and off charge periods are alternated by the governor to guarantee
safety.
Thanks to the Zuchai high efficiency energy losses are very modest
(less than one per cent of the charge per day).

The following is the table for Zuchacells(TM). No Zuchacell(TM)
smaller than
20kl can be manufactured.

Each kl of battery has the following capacity and price:

TL      Capacity Mwh    Cost(Mcr)
9       24              0.45
10      28              0.48
11      30              0.55
12      33              0.62
13      46              0.74
14      51              0.94
15      59              1.12
16      67              1.2

Each kl weighs 2 tons.

- ---

If you are interested in how they were "designed":
The cost and capacity have been computed from the zuchai crystal
capacity given in MT combat rules (under black globe) which turns out
to
be about 80 Mwh/kl (with a duty cycle 0.5 due to cycling). Controls
are
assumed to be as bulky as the crystals at TL 9 and decrease linearly
with
TL until at TL 16 are just 10 per cent of the crystals volume.
Standard
storage batteries as in the MT design rules are also included for a
capacity of one per cent of the total. The weight and price of the 
crystals plus  controls are 2 ton per kl and 0.2 Mcr per Kl to these
one has to add the storage batteries.


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 11:56:16 -0400
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Re: Vehicle Design 

Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca> asked:
> Are the vehicle design rules a simpler version of FF&S (like QSDS)?  The full
> version?  A different system altogether?  Is there anywhere we can get an
> advance look?

To quote Greg Porter's comments prefacing a test version on the Beta list:

    "The [vehicle design system] is a modified version of the vehicle design
     system in Fire, Fusion and Steel, adjusted for T4, and limited to a
     subset of vehicle types likely to be encountered or designed by
     characters. It can be used to create non-spacecraft vehicles of most
     sizes, and while it incorporates much of the Standard Starship Design
     rules, it has some exceptions needed for extremely small vehicles."

The vehicle construction rules are a modified subset of FF&S, specifically
for vehicle (and aerospacecraft) construction.  The major changes are in the
armor calculation, so that vehicles designed for this system have armor
ratings that mesh with the T4 ground combat system; and there have been
changes to the power plants to deal with the "Fusion Plus" of milleu 0.
A variety of pre-designed "off the shelf" weapons are also available.

The rules are capable of constructing vehicles down to very low TLs (below
TL4) and up to TL-15 or so.  The bulk of the designs in the Central Supply
Catalog will be oriented towards a Milieu 0 campaign, but the vehicle design
system can be used to design equipment for other eras.

Future Milieu books will either include appropriate vehicles and equipment
as part of the Milieu book, or a separate vehicle and equipment
suppliment will be produced for that Milieu.

> I'm already somewhat disappointed that the starship combat rules don't
> fit seamlessly into the vehicle/personal combat rules.  (Not that I run
> a lot of combat, but I hate having to improvise when the players want to
> open the airlock with a plasma gun.)

I'm sorry, but there wasn't time to reconcile the two systems.  Here's a
conversion chart between all four armor systems that you might need to use:

Marc Miller's Traveller		Fire, Fusion and Steel
Personal	Starship	Standard	Battle Rider
13		0		 10		0
16		10		 20		1
20		20		 40		2
26		30		 80		3
29		40		120		4

An "0 Armor Rating" starship has 13 points of armor for purposes of firing
at it with a plasma gun (or a grav tank).  If for some reason starship
weapons wind up firing at people or vehicles, convert the weapon's USD
value from the "Battle Rider" scale to the MMT Personal scale.  Therefore,
a USD 3 laser battery has a personal-scale penetration of 26 (note, however,
that the starship laser has a beam of this intensity that's a nearly couple of
meters in diameter - and therefore probably does a lot more damage to the
target than an equivalent ground-combat laser, whose beam is measured in cm).

If armor values fall between the lines on the table, use the next lower
line; therefore a tank with armor value 22 (MMT personal scale) would be
equivalent to starship armor value 20.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:57:21 -0700
Subject: re: detecting things at distances

>A 16 year old belter kid at TL-12
>ought to have gear that current astronomers would *kill* for.

An amateur astronomer today with a 16"
telescope and a moderately-priced integrating CCD is roughly as capable as
the Mt. Wilson 100" was when it was first constructed. Scary thought...
And in one night with the 24" on the UCLA rooftop I could reproduce my
PhD advisors entire graduate thesis work.

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Blank Wolrds

Hi.

Many people have been voicing complaints about the blank worlds in
upcoming IG products. I figured I'd better have my say, lest IG think
that no one disagrees with these posts.

Since Andrew Boulton seems to be the most eloquent of the anti-blank
party, I've decided to pick on him for my response. Nothing personal.

>From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
>Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 18:23 BST-1
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

>On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>> I suppose it could be a great idea (I applauded the same story when
>> it was told about Foreven in Imperiallines 1), but, personally, if I
>> purchase something which charts a Sector, I would prefer to found 
>stats for
>> the whole Sector. >>

>Exactly. We want a finished product, not something with 'this area 
>intentionally left blank. The rest of the work is left as an exercise 
>for the reader' written on it.

Actually, I want to have a scattering of worlds in each subsector (say
two or three out of the thirty or forty) that are left blank. Then I can
come up with my own imaginative worlds (or cop other people's) and put
them down in the area where my players are adventuring. I don't want to need
to have them travel clear across a sector to adventure on some world I
just made up or transplanted from a JTAS "Amber Zone."

Refs who don't like this can just say that these worlds don't exist.

[...]
>that there should be an "official" set of sector data for ALL areas of 
>the Traveller setting.  Those who want to use them can do so.  Those who 
>don't can make up their own stuff.  Maximum flexibility. >>

>This is the view of a lot of people. It's the way Traveller has always 
>been done, and it should stay that way.

The problem is, I don't like the way it's always been done. This may
sound like heresy, but I didn't like my characters to have to travel
to an official sector to go on one of GDW's excellent adventures, and
then travel to an "unofficial" sector in order to go on some nifty
adventure that I thought up, but couldn't fit into one of GDW's
canonical sectors. They spent too much time jumping around and not
enough time adventuring. This was especially true since thay had to make
money to make their ship payments, so each jump had to be detailed to
figure out how much money they made.

[...]
>their creativity.  It becomes "canon," even if they don't know the term. 
>[G] >>

>That's never been a problem in the past, why should it be now? And as 
>long as people are having fun (just to remind people why we're here), 
>what does it matter if they're not quite being as creative as they could 
>be?

Actually, it's always been a problem in the past. Players get upset if
they make plans based on the canon, and then find out (sometimes too
late) that the ref has changed that part of the canon. Having
established non-canonical areas (that are near to the main campaign, not
in another sector!) will make things clear to both players and refs what
may or may not be reasonably expected.

>But you can get the same effect by just saying 'referees are free to 
>change or ignore anything they see here to fit in with their own 
>personal view of the universe'. That way, *everyone* is happy. Full data 
>will piss off nobody - those who were going to fill in the blanks will 
>do so anyway - whereas holes will make many people very angry. They may 
>even not buy the book(s), on the grounds that if they're being forced to 
>write some of it they might as well save their money and do it all. New 
>refs may also be put off, and buy something they can use straight out of 
>the box instead.

There are two problems with this approach. 

The first I already noted above: I don't want to discourage the players
from making up elaborate schemes by changing the universe they know and
love (unless it would be really fun to do so! 8^). 

The second is that IG may come up with a really fun adventure that I
want to take the players on, but unfortunately, I've already trashed the
worlds it takes place on. If these wolds are part of a small league, or
have strategic value based on their position, then fitting the new
adventure into my modified campaing could be a real problem. (IMHO, the
only reason to go with canon is so you can use published adventures
without much effort. If I have to work to fit an adventure into my
campaign, I may as well not use any published data!) So if IG goes the 
route you suggest, then I would hope that they delineate which worlds
the ref can change or trash without fear of violating future canon.


><< Besides, I bet there will be folks who will put a lot of effort into 
>developing certain regions of space, then release those online (esp. now 
>that they know IG won't come along and publish the result of their hard 
>work w/o their permission[G]) for all of us to use. >>

>So you want to replace an official canon, available to everyone, with an 
>unofficial one only available online?

It works for me. If all you want is to have a huge number of detailed
worlds so that your players can do anything and go anywhere, then
getting such worlds from the web should be just as good as getting them
from IG.

If, OTOH, you want sections of your campaign that you can develop
without fear of being "canoned," but you ALSO want to have sections where
you get full support from Traveller's very excellent canon, then the blank
worlds policy seems like a pretty good way to go.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 21 Oct 1996 12:16:22 GMT
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answer] Re: Vehicle Design 

>I'm sorry, but there wasn't time to reconcile the two systems.  

Someone should have made the time.  After all, a reconciled system already
existed (TNE).

So far, I'm sticking with Brilliant Lances when I want to have a space
battle.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 21 Oct 1996 12:26:38 GMT
Subject: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada

>We are very sorry about the misunderstanding that was created by our  
>statement (on the web site) regarding the books that were sent via Priority 
>Mail several weeks ago.  We were unclear in stating that the books which we 
>were referring to were those that were ordered prior to July 1 (the 
>hardbacks signed by Marc Miller).

Uh, right.

I ordered, and paid for, three hardcovers back in May.  I paid by money
order, because you weren't then set up for credit card orders.

To date I have received nothing.  

I am, bluntly, pissed off about this.  You have had my money for over four
months.  One of the books was for a friend who moved to Israel last week - I
will now have to spring for international postage to give him his book.  

Does Imperium Games plan on doing more than "oops we're sorry" to those of us
who had the faith and enthusiasm to support you when you were a start-up
company?

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:46:06 -0800
Subject: Imperial Establishing Document

Hello,

I recently HTMLized and posted the Imperial Establishing documents to my web
page, http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

The authors are Wesley Esser, RD Elliott, and Jeff Zeitlin.  If you fon't
want your version of the document on my page, please let me know.

Of course, everything else on my page is still there, starships, an
adventure by Allen Shock (The Pirates of Penzanz), as well as the Imperium
Games FAQ, and other 'official' IG material.

So check it out, 

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 12:13 PDT
Subject: Fall of civilization affecting hydrographics

>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> OK, you got me. How could the fall of civilization affect hydrographic
>> percentages and Gas Giants? Please explain.
>
>My thinking is it wasn't the fall itself but possibly the cause of the
>fall. Say, carpet bombing with megatons of nukes from orbit, major
>vulcanism, or massive forest fires.  Other than that, I'm at a loss
>myself. After all, how much did the collapse of the Roman Empire affect
>the level of the oceans?

I read in Scientific American that if someone took a supertanker, filled
with iron dust (shaved scrap iron) and dumped it across the face of the
arctic sea, the resulting mega increase in growth of some form of plankton
that thrives on the iron would create so much carbon dioxide (or oxygen? I
forget which) that it would trigger an ice age.  Or was it the green house
affect melting the icecaps?  I can't remember.  :)

The point is, something so bizarre could be done to a world to unbalance
it's ecological or climate systems that the very seas could change, or an
ice age could trigger, or a green house effect or nuclear winter, or any of
a number of devastating things could happen.  Asteroid bombardment for
example, could change not only the climate, but the very continental land
mass.  (Dough!  I said the asteroid word).

All I know is that I have workable rules, a workable character form,
players, a nice adventure...

but no campaign setting I can use.

:)

Joel
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #585
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 21 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 586

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #583
         3. Re: 3,2,1...0
         4. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
         5. Re: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada
         6. That's MY Pun!
         7. Re: Fall of civilization affecting hydrographics
         8. Re: [T96#579] Imperial Establishing Document
         9. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        10. Re: Starship economics & Misjumps
        11. Re: ORKCON: Where???
        12. Re: Traveller Costuming
        13. Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:44:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Chuck Maddox wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> If permission is forthcomming and a site is needed...  I volunteer my newly
> created, but still under construction, site: http://www.xnet.com/~cmaddox/.

Looks like Peter Miller went ahead and took care of it.  But thanks for 
the offer...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:58:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #583

ORCCON is a RPG Convention.  Not a fair.  You are correct that it is in
Schweinfurt Germany.  It is November 1-3, give Robert More a call at
09721-299190, or from the US call 011-49-9721-299190.

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Thus spake shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

First, I said:

> > Sure, you're still dealing with the one-week travel time, but I've not 
> > seen anywhere (not even in the "Starship Operator's Manual") where the 
> > MINIMUM length of a jump is defined.  This brings up a nasty idea that 
> > one of the players in my campaign brought up:  Where does it say that you 
> > can't jump NOWHERE?  He wanted to give pursuers the idea that he'd given 
> > them the slip by jumping out-system, only to reappear a week later and 
> > continue whatever silliness had gotten him into trouble in the first place.
 
> There are several ways of dealing with this. One would be to say that
> your realspace vector has some bearing on your jumpspace vector. But
> that gets *real* ugly.
> 
> So let's work up some pseudo-science.

[snip]
 
> Now, the question is *if* you can somehow use the jump to change this
> vector. If yes, we need to restrict it, otherwise it could be used to
> jump into a system at a *very* high velocity for the purpose of dumping
> deadfall ordanance on a planet. Not good.

This capability is inferred in TNE, but not dealt with in detail.  If I 
recall correctly, an Exceptional Success on the astrogator's jump entry 
task will result in a favorable change in real-space vector upon exit 
(such as being on-course for a refuelling run around a gas giant).  
Considering the potential for the origin and destination star systems 
having a high relative velocity (to each other), one would have to assume 
that some tinkering with real-space vectors on exit is possible just to 
avoid having to 'catch up' with one's destination system.  Of course, 
this does some violence to physics, which I prefer to simply ignore.

Naturally, some limits have to be imposed by the GM in order to prevent 
silly-assed rock-dropping scenarios.
 
> Second, is the question of whether or not sensor readings of a jumping
> ship (or an arriving one) will give you some idea of the direction or
> distance of the jump.

Although it may have been addressed in earlier versions, in TNE 
(specifically, "Brilliant Lances", I think) it is possible, if you have a 
good sensor lock on a jumping ship, to determine their destination.  It 
is stated that fleeing ships will often detonate nukes in order to break 
enemy target locks (using the nuke's 'white out' effects) prior to jump 
so that they cannot be tracked.

It is further stated that a ship very near an arriving ship's entry point 
will be able to detect the event occurring several minutes before the 
other ship actually breaks back into normal space.  Arrival is preceded 
by gravitational and electromagnetic perturbations centered on the point 
at which the arriving ship will break out.

I gained the impression, however, that this phenomenon is extremely 
difficult (practically impossible) to detect at any great distance, which 
rules out 'pre-detection' of incoming starships by all but the densest 
sensor networks.
 
[snip]

> It *does* allow for lots of fun with "zero" jumps, and short jumps.
> Including the old trick from H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking" where you
> are supposedly trading with a star system several parsecs off, but
> actually are just jumping to the outer system where you have a hidden
> base. :-)

Yep.  Just don't let the 'revenooers' get a good look at you when you're 
leaving...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:32:35 -0500
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

>I've come up with a change in the way I calculate target numbers, 
>... [snip] ...
>
>The twist is this--double the skill level and half the attribute.
>
>		Target number = (2 x skill level) + (attribute / 2)      round up
>
>... [snip] ... So, what do you think?

Well, it seems like I still get the same target number for some
combinations of skill and attribute.

For example, for the skill, attribute pairs of (0,13), (1,9), (2,5), 
and (3,1) I get a target number of 7 for all of them.

For the skill, attribute pairs of (2,13), (3,9), (4,5), and (5,1) I 
get a target number of 11 for all of them.

I'm not sure how much better your linear transformation is when 
compared to the T4 linear transformation. It seems to me that _any_ 
linear transformation you pick, you're going to end up with some 
combination of skill, attribute pairs that end up with the same 
target number and may seem odd upon analysis.


BTW, I should have probably stated my task variant system a little
simpler than I did, so while I've got you reading this, here's
another go in (hopefully) plain english. ;-)


For every task roll, pick a required skill level.

For every skill level above that required, roll 1 half die less.

For every skill level below that required, roll 1 half die more.


That's it.


The manner in which the % success changes is pretty much going to be 
different for every combination of skill and attribute tossed into 
the grinder. The horrible list of numbers I posted yesterday 
hopefully bears out this assertion.

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:06:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada

Rob Prior wrote:
> To date I have received nothing.
> 
> I am, bluntly, pissed off about this.  You have had my money for over four
> months.  One of the books was for a friend who moved to Israel last week - I
> will now have to spring for international postage to give him his book.
> 
> Does Imperium Games plan on doing more than "oops we're sorry" to those of us
> who had the faith and enthusiasm to support you when you were a start-up
> company?

Yeah, maybe something other than taking a two week vacation during your start up
I did not order a hardcover because I had a feeling something like this would happen

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 21 Oct 1996 16:51:08 GMT
Subject: That's MY Pun!

David Joseph Smart wrote:

>Andrew Boulton wrote:
>> Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are,
>> well, 'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.
>
>Would this be known as a "de-Marc-ation" zone? :-)

Actually, _I_ wrote that pun, and I'm proud of it!  :-)

Like the de-Marc-ation zone, though.  

Things are getting Marc-edly silly around here...

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:10:10 +0000
Subject: Re: Fall of civilization affecting hydrographics

Joel Lovell wrote:
> I read in Scientific American that if someone took a supertanker, filled
> with iron dust (shaved scrap iron) and dumped it across the face of the
> arctic sea, the resulting mega increase in growth of some form of plankton
> that thrives on the iron would create so much carbon dioxide (or oxygen? I
> forget which) that it would trigger an ice age.  Or was it the green house
> affect melting the icecaps?  I can't remember.  :)

I think it would be oxygen (the exhalation of plankton, which are plants)

Just for laughs, a long time ago I remembered reading about a poison (real) so deadly, 
that if a mop bucket  of it were dumped in the Atlantic Ocean, it would kill every living 
thing in the world in 2 years. I cannot remember the name of the toxin but it was about 
15 syllables

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 17:36:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#579] Imperial Establishing Document

David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> hath scriven...

T::>Joe Walsh wrote:
 ::>>
 ::>> Hi,
 ::>>
 ::>> A while back, we had quite a discussion about the Imperial Establishing
 ::>> Document/Warrant/whatever (I recall that several names for it were
 ::>> proposed).  As I recall, a couple of highly agreeable documents came out
 ::>> of that.
 ::>>
 ::>> Unfortunately, I neglected to keep a copy of them.  If someone could
 ::>> email me a copy of the top two or three candidates (or point me to a web
 ::>> site where they're stored), I'd appreciate it greatly.

T::>Whoa! I missed these too! Could anyone just repost?

 Herewith the latest version of the one I proposed...
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 Preamble - Proclamation of the Imperium

 Of the necessity for a strong interstellar government, there is
 no doubt.  That such governments much change over time, to best
 meet the needs of those they serve is equally unquestioned.  As
 has happened in the past, so shall it happen now.  We, Cleon
 Zhunastu, and the Senate in Assembly of the Federation of
 Sylean Worlds, do therefore proclaim the restoration of the
 Grand Empire of the Stars, and of the Rule of Man, that a
 proper interstellar government may once again act for the
 benefit of all.

 Article I - Imperial Governance, Membership, Citizenship

 The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any
 member world.  Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to
 provide for the defense of all of the member worlds as a group,
 and to bring the rule of law to the spaces between worlds.
 No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except
 where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial law.

 Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim
 allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall
 become a member of the Imperium, equal in status to all other
 members of the Imperium.  Member worlds shall govern themselves
 as they see proper, provided that such government does not
 violate Imperial laws.

 The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees
 fit governmental entities superior to the member worlds but
 subordinate to the Imperium.  This shall include the power to
 abolish said entities as it sees fit.

 The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees
 fit bureaus and agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial
 will.  This shall include the power to abolish said bureaus
 and agencies at it sees fit.

 The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized
 sophont native to or naturalized by a member world of the
 Imperium, or any living recognized sophont swearing fealty to
 the Imperium directly.  No immunity, protection, right, or
 privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen of the Imperium
 may be abridged or denied by a member world.

 Article II - The Emperor, Hereditary Succession

 The Powers of the Imperium shall be vested in an Emperor, who
 shall maintain that title and those powers until his death or
 voluntary abdication.  Upon such death or abdication, the title
 and powers shall pass to the oldest child of the Emperor, whether
 by birth or by adoption, provided that the child shall have been
 publicly acknowledged as the rightful heir of the Emperor by the
 Emperor, and providing that there are no conditions which would
 disqualify the child as fit to maintain the Powers of the Imperium.

 Article III - The Moot, Nobility

 The recognized nobles of the Imperium shall provide their
 advice and counsel to the Emperor prior to any legislation or
 action by the Emperor.  The recognized nobles, acting in this
 capacity, shall be designated the Imperial Moot.  The Imperial
 Moot shall have two powers over the Emperor:  They shall have
 the power to declare the dissolution of the Imperium, and they
 shall have the power to disqualify an Imperial Heir Apparent
 from ascending to the Imperial Power.  However, the latter
 power shall only be exercised for just and proper cause.  If
 the Emperor dies or abdicates having provided no heirs either
 by blood or by adoption, or if no heir of the Emperor is found
 fit to maintain the Powers of the Imperium, the Moot shall have
 the power to designate the recipient of the Imperial Powers.
 Should the Moot find it necessary to exercise this power, the
 designee shall be a citizen of the Imperium.

 A recognized noble of the Imperium shall be a citizen granted a
 noble title by the Emperor or by one empowered by the Emperor to
 grant noble titles.  Noble titles granted by member worlds may
 be recognized by the Imperium on a case-by-case basis.

 Article IV - Free Trade

 The Imperium shall support free trade between its members.  No
 member shall engage in piracy or smuggling against another
 member, its agents, or independent shipping emanating
 therefrom, nor allow its territory to be used for piracy or
 smuggling against another member, its agents, or independent
 shipping emanating therefrom, nor shall issue letters of marque
 or reprisal or other permission for ships operating in its
 territory to engage in piracy or smuggling against another
 member, its agents, or independent shipping emanating therefrom.

 Article V - Standards

 The Imperium shall conduct all of its activities according to
 the Imperial Calendar, which shall consist of a Year made up of
 365 (three hundred sixty five) consecutive Days of 24 (twenty
 four) consecutive hours each.  The Days shall be numbered 1
 (one) to 365 (three hundred sixty five) in order.  The day that
 this Charter shall become effective shall be designated Day 1
 of Year 0 on the Imperial Calendar.  Day 1 of any Year on the
 Imperial Calendar (henceforth Imperial Year) shall be
 designated as an Imperial Holiday, named Holiday.

 The unit of exchange in interstellar commerce, and between the
 Imperium and the member worlds, shall be the Imperial Credit.
 The Imperial Credit shall be valued independently of the value
 of any coin, currency, or value of any member world.  The
 Imperium shall have the responsibility and power to control the
 value of the Imperial Credit.

 The Imperium shall use as its standard of measurement the
 presently accepted standard measures and nomenclature used by
 the Sylean Federation.  These standards shall be designated the
 Standard Imperial Measurement System (SI).

 Article VI - Slavery Prohibited

 Chattel slavery shall not exist in the Imperium, nor in any
 territory directly under its control, nor on any member world,
 nor in any territory with which a member world shall have dealings.

 Article VII - Extraterritoriality of designated Imperial
               possessions

 The governance and operation of starports or other territories
 ceded to Imperial use is reserved to the Imperium.  Movement
 of material and sophonts between such territories and the
 member world shall be controlled by the member world, subject
 to Imperial laws governing such movement.  Such territory
 shall be excluded from the jurisdiction of any member world,
 and no material or sophonts shall enter such territories
 from any member world without the express consent of the
 governing Imperial authorities responsible for such territory.

 Article VIII - Acknowledgement of Imperial Power

 Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in this
 document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the
 purpose of ensuring its continued safety and stability, reserves
 to itself the power to unilaterally enact changes in any or all
 aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world
 or citizen.


==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Treason is unacceptable behavior for elected officials...


------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:45:08 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Well, here I go again.
> 
> (Shhhhhh!  I'm hunting wabbit, er, I mean, de perfect system)
>
>                 Easy            1.5/Auto
>                 Average         2
>                 Difficult       2.5
>                 Formidable      3
>                 Staggering      4
>                 Impossible      5

This is an excellent start... I've actually taken to telling my players 
"It's an uncertain 3D task, I'll be rolling one."  So I don't use their
labels.  Yes it's a little more "roll-playing" than "role-playing"
but the mechanics are so much quicker that it's a win by me.

> The twist is this--double the skill level and half the attribute.
> 
> Target number = (2 x skill level) + (attribute / 2)      round up

Works well for me too.  However there are two issues that do need 
consideration:  "Default" skills and Jack-of-all-Trades (JoT).

With the base T4 system, the players get a big jump when they go
from 0 to 1 in a skill.  Are you proposing cutting the "Default"
level to attribute/4?  I think that this might be a bit stiff. That
12 in an attribute only gives a 3 target number and a fifteen
a 4 which leaves the unskilled trying to drive a car fairly hard up.
I think I'd lean to a "Default" base skill at (attribute/3).  

The second issue is JoT.  I could see several ways to work JoT.  
	1) Target # = (2 * JoT skill level(sl)) + Default Target # (DT#)
	2) Target # = sl + DT#
	3) Target # = sl + (attribute/2)

The first option is closest to the T4 rule set.

The second option slows the power of JoT significantly.

The third option really pushes the first level of JoT value but
keep some balance by slowing further growth.  Overall. probably too
powerful.

I think I'll end up using option 1 or possibly 2....  Comments from 
the peanut gallery?
 
> So, what do you think?

#@%!BLAM!%@#
You got one...  but be careful the rules lawyers may get you for
hunting out of season.  :)

Douglas

------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:53:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Starship economics & Misjumps

Larry Hadley wrote:
>   IIRC, in CT it was stated that the Prime Rate in Imperial Space was 2%,
> because of a very stable economy (possibly such transactions are
> subsidized by the Imperium to encourage interstellar trade)

That's a cute prime rate.  I wish that's what it was here/now.  However,
a mere 2% on Taxes and Insurance seems unlikely.  IIRC, when I bought my
house this year PI for my payments was ~$670 US a month and the TI was another 
~$300 a month, with almost 1/4 of this being "mortgage insurance" since
I had only 5% to put down on the house.  Now on a 30MCr investment with
a 40 year term, one doesn't get to the 20% equity level to drop that 
piece of insurance very quickly, especially with a loan based on something
that DE-preciates rather than AP-preciates as a home does.  So it seems 
to me that the payments are too low for the risk that the banks are taking.
If the Imperium is subsidizing trade in the way you suggest, then taxes will
be higher... still pushing up the costs of ownership.

>   If this is so, 4% (including taxes and insurance) would seem to be in
> line.

Maybe I should do a little number crunching at home.... :)

Thanks for the comments.
Douglas

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 22:28:18 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: ORKCON: Where???

Moin Harald Budschedl,

> I heard 'bout the Orkcon Gaming Convention in Germany. It should take
> place from Nov.1st to 3rd.
> Does anybody know, if this is right?
> Does anybody know, where in Germany it is (which city - adress ...).
> Does anybody know, if one can find Traveller material there?

	Sorry thats german ;-( But as some gurus are there, perhaps
	more german travellers will enjoy being there.

Der (2.) OrkCon'96  findet statt im

Building 68, Simnet Facility        (Naehe  ``Burger King'')
Conn Baracks Schweinfurt

vom  01.11 14.00 Uhr  bis  03.11 20.00 Uhr

Einla"s ist jeweils bis 24.00 Uhr, es kann aber in der Halle weitergespielt
werden. Dort gibt es auch "Ubernachtungsm"oglichkeiten mit Schlafsack.

Eintrittspreis:
              Vorverkauf              Tageskasse
Dauerkarte    25.- ($18.00)           30.- ($21.00)
Tageskarte    10.- ( $7.00)           12.- ( $9.00)

Informationen & Vorverkauf (meines Wissens noch bis 15.10.):

The Wizard's Circle
Rueckertstrasse 15
97421 Schweinfurt

Tel:   09721/299 190
Fax:   09721/299 180
email: wizards.circle@t-online.de


- -- 
		 http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin
   kraehe@bakunin.north.de, 27721 Werschenrege 52/Germany, +49 4292 674
		" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:59:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > You also want to avoid significant ribbons from any other military.  As
> > other TML'ers have mentioned, getting caught with a Silver Star might buy
> > you some trouble.  If you've got access to a precedence chart, you'll
> > want to refer to it in order to select the least significant ribbons.
> 
> Yeah, the equivalent of the "good conduct medal" is probably pretty
> safe.
> 
> One other "safe" source of medals are the "political" ones from the
> USSR and "Eastern block". There are a *lot* of medals there that tended
> to get handed out for being a good Party member, or just "in favor".
> Even so, stay away from that simple gold star on a red ribbon. The
> folks who *earned* that one rank right up there with the CMoH.

"Hero of the Soviet Union," eh, Leonard??

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:54:49 -0700
Subject: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

I've been a little busy with Work -- and my T4 game these last few days. Here's a 
writeup of what's been happening here:

My game happens on Sundays at the Friendly Local Game Store, aka The Comic Grapevine in 
Lodi. We play out in front of the store, and I tell everyone who asks that we're playing 
"The latest edition of a classic roleplaying game, Mark Miller's Traveller." We used to 
play TNE in the back game room but we moved things out front, displacing the usual 
platoon of munchkin "Money: The Squandering" players. After all, it is up to us hardcore 
players have to enlighten the heathen . . . and what better day for roleplaying 
evangelism than Sunday? 

The game started out with one guy who really wanted to play. I ran it as a one-on-one 
with no demo element until I had other players clamoring to join. Once I had a relaible 
core group of players, I turned the game into a demo and laid down some ground rules, 
after consulting with Doug, the god-king of the FLGS: players will conduct themselves as 
though they were **in public**, not as though they were the subjects of a 
testosterone-overdose experiment; players will attend to personal hygiene before coming 
to the game (I have one guy with this problem; it turns out that he is manic-depressive 
and he lets go of hygenic discipline whenever he forgets his meds. He's otherwise a real 
nice guy and a decent gamer).

My players are four adults -- age 25+ adults -- and four kids. The youngest player is 
14, the oldest is 43. The group is, as usual, all male.


The Trav Details: The game is T4, the setting is a modified Core Subsector in Year Zero. 
Since *none* of my players are at all knowledgable as I am about the canonical Imperial 
history, I can play around with it and tailor it to my preferences, and they won't give 
me any static about my adherance to canon. I've even gone so far as to mess with UWPs, 
government types and law levels on selected worlds; the result is an early Imperium with 
a dangerous enemy -- the Ardin Star Empire. The Imperium contains 20 worlds -- all of 
the spinward side of the Sylean Main and trailing along the Main to Hazan and Nasea, 
with the excepion of Korolon. The Despot of Ardis, a former Sylean naval officer turned 
charismatic dictator, controls Korolon, Ardis (the capital of the Ardin Star Empire), 
Eneri (site of an active Sylean-sponsored insurgency against the paranoid, obnoxious 
Ardin Duke who rules the world) and all other "explored" worlds along the main (some are 
resisting Ardin occupation, some are not). Ardis has the Class A starport and Eneri has 
a Class B 'port -- the book shows the reverse.

Sylea has just reached TL12, right on the verge of developing Jump-3 (J-3 will be common 
in a couple of years). Ardis is a couple of years behind Sylea (no "FusionPlus" -- I 
interpet this as TL-12 lightweight PPs). 

The Characters: The travellers are members of a noble retinue. The noble is Baroness 
Lita (the character back when the game was a one-on-one), Mistress and Pilot of the 
Sylean Yacht _Baroness_ (real creative name there. . . ). Her majordomo is Sir Basil 
Manzikert, a friend from Her Excellency's days in the Navy (a NPC), who serves as 
astrogator/EO/gunner on the ship and as a 'Trav Universe reality check' for Lita. 
Basil is basically a sage, a guide to the strange universe. Of course, Basil is 
sometimes wrong;). On the engines is Gamester (PC), the quiet high-stakes gambler. The 
steward is Gwen (NPC) a Scout with a checkered past and a slowly growing, ill-conceled 
affection for Basil. The (PC) Doctor is Tyler, a former Navy flight surgeon who was the 
naval attache' to the former Imperial Counsulate on Korolon. Also flying with _Baroness_ 
is the detatched Scout _Commando_ (formerly SISS _Kushkyn_), captained by Damien, a PC. 
Damien's partner is Teian (PC) a former Marine. Finally, aboard _Baroness_ are a pair of 
ex-military PCs (Pete and a name lost in my notes) who are currently bodyguards to  a 
pair of embarked NPC diplomats, both evacuees from Korolon (demo participants playing 
pregen characters).

What's Happened: Lita, Basil, Gwen and Robare, a third NPC, now departed, were the 
original crew of _Baroness_. Lita was offered a job of hauling a small package from 
Sylea to Hazan, a considerable journey down the entire coreward length of the Sylean 
Main. Lita was warned that considerable opposition may be arrayed to stop the package. 
The pay was high -- a cool million credits, payable upon success only, no questions 
asked. Lita took the job, hired Basil, Gwen and Robare, and sold passage on the yacht. 
During the second jump, there was a hijacking attempt by an experienced gang of starship 
thieves. Robare was killed -- he took three 'jackers with him. Basil, Gwen and 
Lita were wounded. After healing up and collecting the bounty on the dead 
'jackers, they hired Gamester to replace the dead Robare. Looking for a high-paying 
short-term job, the party met the scout Damien and the merc Teiman, who connected them 
up with a ticket to assassinate the planet's corporate ruler. After tasting the wrath of 
the local cops a time or three, they gleefully pulled off an assassination that has half 
the corps pissed and half running scared. Dodging pira, er, _privateers_ operating under 
Ardin letters of marque and corporate hitmen, the team arrived on Korolon, aka Port 
Royale/Core. In port was the feared Captain Connor Greywolf, master of _Lyr's Lady_, as 
well as his sometime lover, Captain Diana Cynders and her ship _Fire of Wine_. Also in 
system was another notorious pirate, Corwin deCosta, self-styled "admiral" of the Ardin 
Navy. Whilst making repairs to _Baroness_ -- repairs demanded by the Korolon Navy, 
reinforced by the pirate vessels, after a tavestry of a 'safety inspection' that makes 
the worst California OSHA inspection horror story sound like a replay of a game of 
"CandyLand" -- an engineering accident causes a large bolt of electricity to jolt the 
repair robots working in Engineering. The robots working on the ship go berserk and 
attack the crew. Gamester nearly goes to the casino in the sky and Lita is gravely 
wounded. Examination of the wrecked robots reveals that the bots were rigged to berserk 
on command. Lita demands that humans work on _Baroness_, and in a series of incredible 
Robotics, Electronics and Computer taskrolls, Damien and Gamester make every altered 
robot in the highport inventory go berserk! _Fire of Wine_, in for repairs herself, is 
nearly destroyed before the crew gets control. Diana is not happy. Meanwhile, the  
cities of  Korolon begin to treat Syleans and their friends badly -- riots, etc, driven 
by rage against "Sylean Imperialism" and driven by an Ardin covert ops/active measures  
master plan, swamp the world. A representitive of the Sylean Counselate asks Lita to fly 
down and evacuate the counselate. She does -- as does _Commando_ -- and the nobles on 
the staff of the counselate are evac'd aboard _Baroness_. This re-enactment of Siagon 
'75 was brought to you by IG, the Comic Grapevine, Rich Ostorero and the Grapevine 
Irregulars. It was _no accident_!

This week: _Baroness_ arrived at Hazan to deliver the mysterious package. Ardin agents 
are having a tough time getting the stolid Hazans to rise against the Imperium, but they 
make one last attempt to stop Lita from delivering the package. The ambush is busted 
with the help of the new PCs that joined the party during the evacuation, the package 
delivered and the payoff -- an Imperial Solar for MCr5 -- is made. The package -- a 
signed, formal _hardcopy_ of the formal treaty between Hazan and the Imperium allowing 
construction of a forward naval base at Hazan for use afainst the Ardins. The party is 
now enroute back to Sylea.

In other words: I'm having fun running T4. It has it's shortcomings, _but so does every 
other game ever printed_. My players are entertained, interest in Trav is increasing 
here and I've convinced my FLGS to stock Trav right alongside the WW, SJG, T$R and 
Palladium products. My FLGS' distributor tells us that he's restocked on T4, the game is 
so popular.

TMLers, it _can_ be done. Believe. Always believe. But _do it_ anyway!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #586
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Traveller-digest          Monday, 21 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 587

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         2. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
         3. Re: Personal Pizeo Power Sources
         4. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #579
         6. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
         7. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
         8. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
         9. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        10. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        11. Fall of civilization affecting hydrographics
        12. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
        13. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        14. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
        15. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        16. Re: Why I want Blank Areas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:28:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

Chuck Maddox wrote:

> jw> I emailed it to Peter Miller. I think he's going to contact the
> jw> individuals who wrote them, and get their permission to put it on
> jw> his site.
> jw>
> jw> Then again, maybe he'll tell me to go fly a kite. :)
> 
> Joe,
> 
> If permission is forthcomming and a site is needed...  I volunteer my newly
> created, but still under construction, site: http://www.xnet.com/~cmaddox/
> Looking forward to it, Chuck . . . permission pending, natch ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:55:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> > I'd like to see it, too . . . . if one of you Travellers Intrepid with a Web site decide
> > to post it to your site -- prob solved!
> 
> I emailed it to Peter Miller.  I think he's going to contact the
> individuals who wrote them, and get their permission to put it on his
> site.
> 
> Then again, maybe he'll tell me to go fly a kite. :)

I hope not -- wind's down out here! ;)

- --Rich



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:26:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Personal Pizeo Power Sources

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero wrote:
> >
> >Suppose that a synthetic crystal could generate useful pizeo voltages (say
> >30 V (rms) at
> >1500 mA) from ordinary human movement. You wear the crystal array on your
> >belt and the
> >array generates the electrical power to drive a homopole generator to
> >drive that DEI
> >laser or gauss gun ;)
> >
> I like the idea.  Only problem is it would probably invovle A LOT of
> movement to generate the required voltage.  Try this out.

The 45-watt rms value assumes a very efficient crystal -- FAR more efficient than 
quartz.
> 
> Lets take the case of a TL 12 Chemical Cartridge Laser Pistol
> 
> Okay, now lets replace the Chemical Cartridge with some sort of 'flash
> charge' battery. I'm not sure of the proper name.  I'm referring to a
> battery or other medium that would take a large amount of voltage in a small
> amount of time and keep it.  Perhaps by using a loop curcuit of sometype.

You want to store _electrical charge_, not voltage. Voltage is analogous to pressure in 
a fluid system -- how hard the 'trons/charges are being pushed through resistance. 
Batteries store charge -- current -- at a certain voltage
> 
> Now taking the belt idea...
> 
> Lets take the synthetic crystal array and connect it to a homopole generator
> (it's been a while could you explain what a homopole generator is exaclty?).

The homopole generator turns electrical energy (AC, probably) into mechanical energy via 
a flywheel . . . and releases it by rapidly, and with little loss, converting the 
rotational energy of the 'wheel back into a powerful pulse of electrical current at very 
high voltage.

> The homopole generator has leads connecting it to dual storage battteries
> which in turn have leads to the weapons holster.  Thus when the weapon is
> place in the holster the weapon could be fast charged once their is
> sufficient charge in the belt.  But, when used in combat the pistol would
> have those annoying wires dangling from it.

Nice for pistols . . . if the homopole discharges slowly, it could charge batteries or 
capacitors connected through contact pads in the holster. For rifles, you'd still need 
the leads.

Problems? System is not truly efficient. Even with superconductors, the rig is as lossy 
as hell. If the supercons can limit the I^2R losses, it might work.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
> 
> So when you charge from one battery on the belt your movements begin
> recharging it.  And when you need a reload you could charge from another
> battery on the belt while the other recharges.  This design would delay the
> 'dancing' when you run out of ammo in the gun.
> 
> Any ideas or thoughts.
> I realize my idea sounds weak, but I like the pizeo crystol idea, so I'd
> appreciate
> anyone's thoughts.
> 
> ||||
> O  O
>  (  Brad Urwiller
>  __ ravyn@ptw.com
> 
> ||||
> O  O
>  (    Brad Urwiller
>  __   ravyn@ptw.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:43:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> > > As for me, I'm just trying to figure where MM would sign them...
> >
> > He could sign the IC mask and his name would be etched into the very silicon of the chip
> > . . . .
> >
> > ;)
> 
> . . . until Virus takes the chip over and re-writes it, that is . . . [G]

ROFLMAO!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:06:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #579

Brad Urwiller wrote:

> 
> You know, your right.  My electronics book here says 30 V and .005A is
> dangerous not lethal.  Current is what kills you.  The 30 volts is because:
> at that voltage the resultant current is usually dangerous to lethal.
> 
> FYI:
> 
> For those that don't know Electricity for the most part is governend by Ohms
> law.  E=IR
> E= Voltage in Volts
> I=Current in Amps
> R=Resistance in Ohms
> 
> Typical dry skin has a resistance of between 100,000 ohms and 300,000 ohms.
> Wet skin reduces this resistance to approxiamatly 1000 ohms.  According to
> the Textbook
> 
> Heres the effects on the body at varing currents.
> 
> Amps     Effect
> .002     Mild Shock
> .01      Cannot let go of what your holding
> .02      Breathing difficult, Muscular spasms
> .05      Breathing severely inhibited, Suffocation
> .12      Heart Stops
> .3       Severe Burns, Lungs stop completely
> 
> Now for some examples.  Your electric toothbrush operates at around .09 amp
> your lightbulb is normally at 1 amp.
> 
> The above goes to show it wouldn't take a whole lot to both kill you and to
> devise a proper personal energy weapon.

Thanks for the hard numbers, Brad. It's been a long time since I've done any serious 
'tron pushing.

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com
>



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:41:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero wrote:
> 
> >
> >Suppose that a synthetic crystal could generate useful pizeo voltages (say
> >30 V (rms) at
> >1500 mA) from ordinary human movement. You wear the crystal array on your
> >belt and the
> >array generates the electrical power to drive a homopole generator to
> >drive that DEI
> >laser or gauss gun ;)
> >
> >- --Rich Ostorero
> >stormhvn@inreach.com
> 
>         Worn on the belt?  This raises the amusing specter of a bunch of
> troops pinned down by heavy fire, running low on power, madly doing the
> Macarena or twirling hula hoops or otherwise shaking their booties to keep
> the guns firing :)

	I was thinking of a powerpak that charged during **normal** activities as well 
as during vigorous ones . . .

	SillyHumorMode ON

	Semper Fidelis -- Official Motto of the Imperial Marines. 
	(unless you Commonwealth guys have a niftier motto; the only one I know is 
	that of the British SAS -- 'Who Dares Wins')
	"Shut Up And Dance!" -- New Motto After Personal Pizeo PowerPaks are introduced.
	"Death Before Disco!" -- Another possible new Motto.
	"If In Doubt, Empty The Clip" -- Murphy's Laws of Combat, TL6-9
	"If In Doubt, Empty The Clip and Boogie!" -- Same, amended for TL10+
	"Just keeps shooting and shooting and shooting . . . . now he's dancing, and    
         dancing" 

	What's the difference between a marine in a tough fight and a Hiver making a    
        speech?
	Not enough to matter!

	SillyHumorMode OFF

- --Rich "victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:09:07 -0700
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

Bolie IV
>Why can't thse [unstreamlined hulls] maneuver in atmosphere with contragravity.
They can...but only *very* slowly. Anything above 5mph would probably be
unstable - the axis of thrust goes through the centre of mass of the
craft, but the axis of force from aerodrag doesn't, for example. Craft would
be pretty much at the mercy of the wind. A good pilot might be able to 
compenstate enough to move faster, but it would be hard. 

Basically, "unstreamlined" means "didn't care enough to pay for wind tunnel
modelling, vectorable thrust, landing gear, drag reduction, and proper 
design".

>[x-ray lasers]don't work at all in an atmosphere?  Why is this?
The atmosphere is opaque to x-rays - like thick fog to visible light.
You'd lose about 50% of the beam strength every few metres.

>Tunable over what frequencies?
Generally tunable from the mid-IR up to moderate UV. UV for maximum range,
mid-IR for best performance firing through an atmosphere (though absolute
max range drops somewhat.)

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:24:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> My game happens on Sundays at the Friendly Local Game Store, aka The Comic 
> Grapevine in Lodi. We play out in front of the store, and I tell 
> everyone who asks that we're playing "The latest edition of a classic 
> roleplaying game, Mark Miller's Traveller." We used to play TNE in the 
> back game room but we moved things out front, displacing the usual 
> platoon of munchkin "Money: The Squandering" players. After all, it is 
> up to us hardcore players have to enlighten the heathen . . . and what 
> better day for roleplaying evangelism than Sunday? 

Rich,

This is great to hear!  I'm glad you're helping to make Traveller a 
success in Lodi (I used to live in Antioch, CA - wish I'd known you back 
then).  I enjoyed reading your account of the adventures thus far.  It 
sounds like you took a pretty random group of players, and turned it into 
an impessive success!


> In other words: I'm having fun running T4. It has it's shortcomings, 
> _but so does every other game ever printed_. 

Right.  You know what?  When T4 was just a twinkling in IG's eyes, I was 
spouting off about how they should follow the example of CT, and produce 
perfectly edited products.  I was just going over some of that stuff last 
weekend - and it's filled with editing errors!  (I'm talking about first 
printing stuff here - by the time they got to The Travellr Book, they had 
things worked out pretty well.  But take a look at a first printing of, 
say, one of the Library Data books, and you'll find run-on sentences, 
improper use of semicolons and commas, etc.)  It was a real eye-opener 
for me.  

What that experience told me was: 1) I was a lot less critical the first 
time around - and perhaps this will hold true for other first-time 
Traveller players, and 2) if what became my favorite game of all time can 
have errors in its first printing, then so can T4. 


> My players are entertained, 

Which, along with your own entertainment, is all that really matters. :)


> interest in Trav is increasing here and I've convinced my FLGS to stock 
> Trav right alongside the WW, SJG, T$R and Palladium products. My FLGS' 
> distributor tells us that he's restocked on T4, the game is so popular.

Did IG put you on its payroll? [grin]  Seriously, we all benefit when we 
do the type of things you're doing here.


Thanks for the inspiring story,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:27:30 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

<snippage> 
> The twist is this--double the skill level and half the attribute.
> 
>                 Target number = (2 x skill level) + (attribute / 2)      round up
> 

Kenneth,
I think you have hit on an elegantly simple fix to the target number problem.  I'll 
probably give it a try when my group meets on Wednesday.  It's simple enough that 
my players won't get bogged down in number crunching and close enough to original T4 
that they won't get confused by a sudden change of rules.
Thanks,
"Ensign" John 
____________________________________
I wish they all could be Solomani,
Wish they all could be Solomani,
Wish they all could be Solomani....
Girls.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:12:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Rob Prior wrote:
> But I'd like to keep the
> rewriting to a minimum, and thus I think that placing some backwater areas
> into official limbo is a reasonable solution.
> 
> Notice that I wrote "backwater".  Those of us that want to change the grand
> sweep of Imperial history will do so anyway, rewriting entire sectors as we
> choose; those of us that want to run low-key campaigns against the official
> backdrop should have a quiet corner of the sandbox where we can play our
> games in peace, but attached to the official universe so we can come out and
> play with everyone else when we want to.

So, what you are saying is that you would like the blank sectors because you will have 
less re-writing from "official" sources, while the rest of us, who put minimal effort 
into re-writing published material, will have to put in work that we would normally not 
do.  

That doesn't seem fair.  You're choosing to put in that extra work.  The rest of us, 
OTOH, will be forced to create systems because because they are not there, when before, 
we could just flip open our trusty copy sector information.

	GM:  "OK, guys, where do you want to go now?"

	Players:  "Gee, let's jump to this hex."  (pointing to a blank system)

	GM:  (cursing because he didn't put in 4 hrs. last night detailing that system) 
 	"Uh, are you sure you guys want to go there?  I forgot to tell you that you've 
	heard some rumors that there is a bad, uh, plague, yeah, that's it, a plage is 	
	running rampant through that system."

	Players:  "A plague?  Cool.  Sounds like there might be work for group such as 
	ourselves.  We prey on others misfortune, and they pay us a fortune for it.  	
	Yeah, we're all in agreement.  Let's head for that system."

	GM:  (wishing he had a supplement with at least a UWP to guide him as he plays 
	off the cuff)  "Rag 'em, frag 'em, %#$*!@!!.  OK, let's head that way if you 
	want to."  (looking at his watch) "Say, it's getting late.  You guys want to put 
	up and pick it up here next week? (trying to buy time to restructure his plans 	
	and detail the blank system)

	Players:  "Nah, tomorrow's Saturday, and we all don't have to work.  Let's go 	
	ahead and get some more game time in."

	
Anybody who has refereed will agree that the above situation can be all too real.  While 
I agree that some of the best games can come from a night of ad-lib, I always ad-lib 
better if I have some information at my fingertips on which to base my decisions.

My point is this.  You're going to change it anyway, so why not go ahead and publish it 
all.  The way I see it, you're happy either way, because you are changing it.  A lot of 
us don't do a lot of changing, and we don't want to be forced to do it.  If we have 
complete published material, then we can both be happy.

One other point I'd like to mention.  I don't just want complete published material 
(read:  no blank sectors, subsectors, or systems), but I want that material to be 
compatible with sector information already published.  If IG decides to go ahead and 
publish complete sector information, but this information is totally new (and does not 
jive with some of the other sector supplements that I own), I'll be just as upset.  
Traveller should build upon itself and get better.  I don't want to see IG just keep 
reinventing the wheel over and over.

Regards,

Kenneth.



------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:00:39 +1300
Subject: Fall of civilization affecting hydrographics

>From: Joel Lovell
>
>I read in Scientific American that if someone took a supertanker, filled
>with iron dust (shaved scrap iron) and dumped it across the face of the
>arctic sea, the resulting mega increase in growth of some form of plankton
>that thrives on the iron would create so much carbon dioxide (or oxygen? I
>forget which) that it would trigger an ice age.  Or was it the green house
>affect melting the icecaps?  I can't remember.  :)

<<Geo Nit-Pick>>

For the Plankton, the iron is a limiting trace element, ie the plankton can
only grow as fast as the amount of iron there is avaiable to it. The
article you refer to is titled _Ironing Out the Greenhouse Effect_, and it
was in Scientific America, but the aurthors and date I'm not to sure on. I
could look it up if anyone wants.

Just think, the initial steps of a cunning plan to take over a planet is to
seed their oceans with iron and cause the global climate to decline. All
the residents either die, or become severly weakened by the cold. Only
hitch is, you would need to be thinking and planning a few thousand years
in advance.


>Asteroid bombardment for example, could change not only the climate, but
>the >very continental landmass.  (Dough!  I said the asteroid word).

At least you did not mention relativistic rocks!!!! :)



Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Private Bag 3105
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  NEW ZEALAND                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:18:23 +0000
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

Rich Ostorero wrote:
>         Semper Fidelis -- Official Motto of the Imperial Marines.
>         (unless you Commonwealth guys have a niftier motto; the only one I know is
>         that of the British SAS -- 'Who Dares Wins')

The unfortunately now defunct Canadian Airborne, Osons (_WE_ dare!)

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:32:37 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

David, 

I want to say first that I really enjoyed your post.  This is why I throw my ideas out 
on the TML--because I like to read discerning opinions, even if I don't agree with them. 
 Otherwise, I would just make up a rule and put them in my campaign.  You people keep me 
on my toes, and this ensures a good rule is made.  I want something that I can use now 
and not be sorry for later.

So, thanks for the input.  Now on to your post.

David Blustein wrote:

> Well, it seems like I still get the same target number for some
> combinations of skill and attribute.
> 
> For example, for the skill, attribute pairs of (0,13), (1,9), (2,5),
> and (3,1) I get a target number of 7 for all of them.

This is true, but I feel I'm missing your point.  Is this a bad thing?  I wanted a 
system that was ruled by the skill level, but I also wanted attributes to have a 
significant impact on the throw.  I think this system does this.

In the 0-13 combination that you listed, only the attribute matters--just like in T4, 
you use half the ability score.  I just wanted to fix T4 problems--not invent a new 
system--so I am happy with this.

In the 1-9 combination, the attribute picks up any deficiency the character had in skill 
level.  This is my goal of the attribute having a significant impact on the throw.

In the 2-5 combination, the opposite is true.  Skill level of 2, IMHO (hey, I sure an 
glad you people taught me those neat acronyms!), is a pretty good skill. If this was a 
medical skill, the person would be a trained EMT, or last year medical student, or 
senior nurse.  I like how the skill adds more to the target number (+4) than the 
attribute does (+3, for a total target number of 7).

I could go on with the other combinations you listed, but I think you see where I'm 
going.  

My question to you is what is wrong with the numbers matching up so.  Do you just feel 
wrong about it or feel that it is weighted wrong?  If I'm missing something, then please 
let me know.

> I'm not sure how much better your linear transformation is when
> compared to the T4 linear transformation. It seems to me that _any_
> linear transformation you pick, you're going to end up with some
> combination of skill, attribute pairs that end up with the same
> target number and may seem odd upon analysis.

What I was trying to accomplish was a system that was skill based rather than attribute 
based.  You don't have a problem with a person (with Pilot-1, Dex-10) having a better 
chance to hit than another with a great skill (Pilot-4, Dex-6)?

> BTW, I should have probably stated my task variant system a little
> simpler than I did, so while I've got you reading this, here's
> another go in (hopefully) plain english. ;-)

I did look at your system, as I am looking at all of the posts on the task system--for 
good ideas.  The problem, for me, was that it strayed too much from the T4 system.  As I 
said in my post, I'm looking for an easy, minimal fix to the T4 system.  I didn't want 
to invent a new, or far altered, system.

On the surface, your system looks great, but it is just not the system for me.  And, I'm 
sure that my system is probably not right for you.

> For every task roll, pick a required skill level.
> 
> For every skill level above that required, roll 1 half die less.
> 
> For every skill level below that required, roll 1 half die more.
> 
> That's it.

Very simple and clean.  But what I like about my system is that there are no steps.  The 
target number is already recorded on the character's sheet.  All a player has to do 
is look down.  The only question is how many dice to roll, and this has already been 
memorized by my group.  It is easy to remember Auto/1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 4, 5.  Like T4, a 
character has only one target number as long as his attribute and skill level remain the 
same.  Some of my players already know their numbers for certain skills, like gun 
combat, by heart.  There is no cross referencing.

I knew that the system in MT would be a hard system to beat, but I think T4 did it.  It 
just needed a few tweaks, which is what I've done to it with my system. 

Thanks for the words,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:49:11 +0000
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

Joe Walsh wrote:
> > interest in Trav is increasing here and I've convinced my FLGS to stock
> > Trav right alongside the WW, SJG, T$R and Palladium products. My FLGS'
> > distributor tells us that he's restocked on T4, the game is so popular.
> 
> Did IG put you on its payroll? [grin]  Seriously, we all benefit when we
> do the type of things you're doing here.

A game store in Ottawa has sold out several times on T4, having to re-order.
Yet, here in Toronto (Traveller Free since 1994!) very few people have even heard of it
Something is decomposing in Copenhagen!

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:43:20 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Douglas McCorison wrote:

> This is an excellent start... I've actually taken to telling my players
> "It's an uncertain 3D task, I'll be rolling one."  So I don't use their
> labels.  Yes it's a little more "roll-playing" than "role-playing"
> but the mechanics are so much quicker that it's a win by me.

Actually, I really liked that idea when you first posted it.  I don't think I'll use it 
 yet because my players are still learning the T4 system, but when we are all 
comfortable with things...


> Works well for me too.  However there are two issues that do need
> consideration:  "Default" skills and Jack-of-all-Trades (JoT).
> 
> With the base T4 system, the players get a big jump when they go
> from 0 to 1 in a skill.  Are you proposing cutting the "Default"
> level to attribute/4?  I think that this might be a bit stiff. 

I agree, and I'm not proposing that.  I wanted to keep changes to the T4 system 
minimal.  I say that default skills still operate at half attribute.  I checked all 
combinations, and this still keeps the default target number well below those that 
are skilled.

> The second issue is JoT.  I could see several ways to work JoT.
>         1) Target # = (2 * JoT skill level(sl)) + Default Target # (DT#)
>         2) Target # = sl + DT#
>         3) Target # = sl + (attribute/2)

Interesting ideas, but as I've said, I want minimal changes to T4.  I'd keep JOT just as 
it is printed in the T4 rules.  The benefit is that you can use JOT for non-default 
skills at half attribute whereas people without JOT or skill cannot even attempt 
non-default task throws.


> #@%!BLAM!%@#
> You got one...  but be careful the rules lawyers may get you for
> hunting out of season.  :)

LOL.  Hey, thanks for the support, Douglas.  I appreciate your comments.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:21:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> That doesn't seem fair.  You're choosing to put in that extra work.  The rest of us, 
> OTOH, will be forced to create systems because because they are not there, when before, 
> we could just flip open our trusty copy sector information.

Hi Kenneth,

As I mentioned before, I normally agree with the idea that the solution 
that offers the widest range of possibilities is the "correct" solution 
and should therefore be used.  However, I'm willing to give this new way 
a shot.

That said, let me ask for a clarification from you:  What do you want IG 
to publish - UWPs for every world, with a few detailed worlds (culture, 
maps, etc.), or are you asking for every world to be detailed?

The latter doesn't seem reasonable, and I know you're a reasonable 
person, so I'm going to assume it's the former.  If I'm wrong about what 
you want, and I've therefore completely misunderstood what you are saying, 
please let me know. :)

Okay, so I'm assuming it is a choice between publishing UWPs for every 
world or not doing so - ignoring for the moment the percentage of worlds 
that get UWPs versus those which don't.

Given those (very shaky, admittedly) assumptions, it seems to me that 
there isn't a lot of work to be done to get where you want to go.  
Rolling up a UWP - even by hand, without the aid of a computer - is a 
task that can be achieved in a matter of minutes.  

If I were refreeing a session such as you set up in your message (where 
the players want to go to one of the "blank" worlds, and I haven't got 
any info on it prepared), the most I would have to do in order to get the 
info you want IG to provide is say, "Okay, everyone, let's take a 
break.  Refresh your drinks, go to the restroom, stretch.  Be back in 
ten minutes [more to give /them/ enough time than to give me enough time]."

I'd then roll up the UWP (that's what it's in the book for, after all! 
=) ) in a couple of minutes, and spend the rest of the time coming up with 
some reasons for why the UWP is the way it is (i.e., low tech, 0 
atmosphere, etc.), and be as prepared as I would have been had IG done it 
for me.

I understand that, had IG provided that for you, there wouldn't be a 
necessity for a break.  But, I don't see it as being a four-hour ordeal 
to achieve what you want from IG.  

Certainly, if I was uncomfortable with leaving blanks around the area the 
action is occurring in, I could easily have generated UWPs for the ten or 
twenty nearby "blank" worlds before-hand.

'Course, if we assume I have a computer program that is capable of 
generating UWPs and printing them out, nicely formatted, I could 
generate every UWP for the whole sector in a few minutes. :)


Nice talking to you again,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #587
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 588

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada
         2. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
         3. Re: That's MY Pun!
         4. Check your guns at the door, please
         5. Re:  re: detecting things at distances
         6. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
         7. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
         8. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
         9. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
        10. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        11. Re: That's MY Pun!
        12. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
        13. Unit mottos (was: Re: Personal Piezo Generators)
        14. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        15. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        16. Re: Starship economics -- overhead charges, etc. (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:20:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada

Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> Rob Prior wrote:
> > To date I have received nothing.
> >
> > I am, bluntly, pissed off about this.  You have had my money for over four
> > months.  One of the books was for a friend who moved to Israel last week - I
> > will now have to spring for international postage to give him his book.
> >
> > Does Imperium Games plan on doing more than "oops we're sorry" to those of us
> > who had the faith and enthusiasm to support you when you were a start-up
> > company?
> 
> Yeah, maybe something other than taking a two week vacation during your start up
> I did not order a hardcover because I had a feeling something like this would happen

I think this is time someone started telling us what is going on.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:28:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

>A game store in Ottawa has sold out several times on T4, having to re-order.
>Yet, here in Toronto (Traveller Free since 1994!) very few people have even
heard of it
>Something is decomposing in Copenhagen!

In fact, nowhere I'e been to in the entire Greater Toronto Area has got T4,
or even heard of it (with the exception of ScifiWorld, which is apparently
special ordering it).  

Joe, is their some problem here, can IG do anything about it?  They're
missing a  huge chunk of potential gamers...including me! :)

Thanks,

_______________________________Peter John Miller
The Great AD&D Module Trade\Auction is running until November 21st 1996.
Check out http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/auction.htm or e-mail me for a list
of currrent items available!
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:05:21 -0700
Subject: Re: That's MY Pun!

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> David Joseph Smart wrote:
> 
> >Andrew Boulton wrote:
> >> Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are,
> >> well, 'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.
> >
> >Would this be known as a "de-Marc-ation" zone? :-)
> 
> Actually, _I_ wrote that pun, and I'm proud of it!  :-)
> 
> Like the de-Marc-ation zone, though.
> 
> Things are getting Marc-edly silly around here...

Yeah...kinda reminds me of the Vargr who was stopped by starport
security and asked why he was trying to board a secured starship. He
replied, "I? Embarking?"

------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:17:20 -0700
Subject: Check your guns at the door, please

I've been a little out of the loop, and am about forty digests behind, so 
maybe you're already discussing this item at length.  If so, please 
accept my apologies for wasting bandwith.

In T4, one of the sidebars indicates that while it is forbidden to bring 
weapons into Imperial buildings, private businesses are prohibited from 
barring weapons.  Did anyone else read that and say "Whoa!  what's up?!"

What kind of justification have you developed for this interesting piece 
of early Imperial legislation?  Does this serve some Imperial purpose?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 21 Oct 96 22:36:08 EDT
Subject: Re:  re: detecting things at distances

Bruce wrote:
>And in one night with the 24" on the UCLA rooftop I could reproduce my
>PhD advisors entire graduate thesis work.

I would hope that there was a little analysis in addition to the data
collection, but I agree with your idea. I'm using small commerical telescopes
and CCD cameras to track, identify, and monitor geosynchronous satellites. Less
than twenty years ago it took millions of dollars and years of development to
acheive similar results.

As to passive detection and identification of distant ships, there are systems
using small telescopes to monitor areas of the sky and automatically detect
objects in the Oort cloud and beyond by watching them pass in front of stars
(i.e., MACHO and related project). Some of the most detailed information on
asteroids has come from occultation observations. When an asteroid passes in
front of a star, it casts a shadow on the Earth in the starlight. If several
observatories observe the occultation, an outline of the asteroid can be
reconstructed from the timings of the disappearance and reappearance of the star
as the shadow sweeps over the Earth. An array of sensors on the hull of a
Traveller starship (especially a large one) or a group of ships monitoring stars
in all directions could not only detect another ship at very great distances,
but also get some idea of its identity from the shape and size of its "shadow".
A lot of stars would have to be watched, but all it takes is improved sensors
and computing power.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 20:04:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

On 10/21/96 at 09:52 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch
Elliott) said:

>        In yet others, characteristic is more important, but skill still
>counts.  To borrow Ross Coburn's example, take a 5'3" <evil grin>
>basketball player with middling skill playing basketball with somebody
>that's 6'6" with no skill.  The short player has an edge until the tall
>player gets a clue, at which point the short player is in trouble because
>height and dexterity really, really count in basketball, and the skills
>involved are fairly simple (dribbling and throwing balls, basically).

Yeah, well up to a point.  

Do you know who Muggsy Boggs is?  The 5'3" pro basketball player? There
*is* more to it than height.  There's also more to it than just dexterity. 
There are is also some psychological factors that aren't covered by any of
Traveller's Attributes.

Speaking as someone who has played basketball, poorly, for many years...the
skills are NOT fairly simple!  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

At 09:52 am 21 10 96 -0400, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>Dave Golden wrote:
>>        Here's the basic system -- roll under the target number on d20. Your
>>target number is the base difficulty plus skill plus 1/3 characteristic. A
>>difficult task has a base number of 5 (25% chance of success), and the
>>increment is 5. Hence,
>>
>>        Easy            15
>>        Routine         10
>>        Difficult       5
>>        Formidable      0
>>        Impossible      -5

>        I like it!  Mean, lean, and simple!

        That was the whole idea; I'm glad you agree.
>
>        Comments: as I pointed out a while back, in some instances skill
>will  outweigh characteristic in determining the outcome: in the case of
>two people with int 11, one with mathematics (or edu) 3, the one with the
>higher math skill will probably do better, because mathematics is a very
>complex skill.  To reiterate the example I used, although my personal
>bodily characteristics were more suited to fencing than my old fencing
>coach's, the fact that his skills were so well-developed compared to mine
>meant that it was no contest all the way.

        Yep; that was the general idea.

>        OTOH, in other situations, characteristic is all that counts: e.g.
>lifting large heavy objects, running long distances, being a minor noble,
>etc.

        In that case, there would be no skill listed.

>        In yet others, characteristic is more important, but skill still
>counts.  To borrow Ross Coburn's example, take a 5'3" <evil grin>
>basketball player with middling skill playing basketball with somebody
>that's 6'6" with no skill.  The short player has an edge until the tall
>player gets a clue, at which point the short player is in trouble because
>height and dexterity really, really count in basketball, and the skills
>involved are fairly simple (dribbling and throwing balls, basically).

        Good point.

>        I'd argue that situations where a skill alone, regardless of
>characteristics, would determine outcome, are impossible.  You're always
>mediating, or using, your skill with a characteristic.

        Agreed.

>        All this system of yours needs (IMHO) is to take this into account
>(skill-primary, characteristic-only, and characteristic-primary types of
>situation) and I think that it'd rule.  It's simple because of the single
>die used, and it has nice high resolution because the single die is a d20
>(I don't like d6's; I find that anything under a d10 is lousy for
>resolution; otoh Ross thinks that resolution isn't neccessary).  I'd
>suggest simply reversing the weight you give to skills & characteristics in
>characteristic-primary rolls, and maybe just tripling the characteristic
>and then dividing by two to get the modifier for characteristic-only rolls?

        OK, how about this:

        Tasks are listed in one of the following ways

        Title: Difficulty, Skill, Characteristic
        This is a "skill-primary" task. Asset = Skill + Characteristic/3
(drop fractions)

        Title: Difficulty, Characteristic, Skill
        This is a "characteristic-primary" task. Asset= Skill + Characteristic/2

        Title: Difficult, Characteristic
        This is a "characteristic-only" task. Asset= Characteristic/2

I'm using the divider of 2 for the last two, because otherwise the
characteristic is too overwhelming. Impossible tasks are reserved for
way-above-average characters (at least in the particular area). Someone with
only average characteristic and/or skill shouldn't have a chance.

        How does this strike you? And how would you handle the case of
having two skills, both of which could contribute to a task? Sum the assets?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:28:02 +0000
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

I only got my T4 by special order thru my comic store (!?!)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:22:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> In fact, nowhere I'e been to in the entire Greater Toronto Area has got T4,
> or even heard of it (with the exception of ScifiWorld, which is apparently
> special ordering it).  
> 
> Joe, is their some problem here, can IG do anything about it?  They're
> missing a  huge chunk of potential gamers...including me! :)

Hi Peter,

As I understand it, IG doesn't have much control over where T4 books end 
up.  They contact distributors, and try to get them to order.  Then, 
presumably, those distributors who decide to carry T4 tell their customers 
(store owners) about the books.  Some store owners choose to order them, 
some do not.

So, if a given store doesn't have T4, it may be because the owner deals 
through a distributor who doesn't carry T4 (and you can believe that's 
not because IG doesn't want them to![G]), or it is because the store 
owner doesn't want to carry Traveller (for whatever reason).

Again, that's the situation as I understand it.

It would seem to me that the solution is to convince the shop owners that 
it is in their best interest to carry the product.  They can then tell 
their distributors they want to carry it.  If the distributor doesn't 
offer it, they may decide to get into contact with IG and pick up some 
copies - if they perceive sufficient demand for doing so.

My personal theory is that there will be good distribution of Traveller 
once there is a traveller "line" of products - when Starships, CSC, 
Aliens, M0, and First Survey are published.  Then, there will be plenty 
of product to fill shelves, there will be plenty to advertise about, etc. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:30:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

I think it is a bunch of crap leaving huge sections blank

Sounds like they wanna sell us a game and not do any background work.

I don't know if the "leave it blank" players have nothing better to do than roll sectors, but 
I do (I enjoy it, but I do not want to make a career out of generating planets, just 
adventures)

I use the UPP to generate adventures, not the other way round

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:31:54 +0000
Subject: Re: That's MY Pun!

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> Yeah...kinda reminds me of the Vargr who was stopped by starport
> security and asked why he was trying to board a secured starship. He
> replied, "I? Embarking?"

pyew!

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:00:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

Peter Miller wrote:

>
>From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:46:06 -0800
>Subject: Imperial Establishing Document
>
>Hello,
>
>I recently HTMLized and posted the Imperial Establishing documents to my web
>page, http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/
>
>The authors are Wesley Esser, RD Elliott, and Jeff Zeitlin.  If you fon't
>want your version of the document on my page, please let me know.
>
>Of course, everything else on my page is still there, starships, an
>adventure by Allen Shock (The Pirates of Penzanz), as well as the Imperium
>Games FAQ, and other 'official' IG material.
>
>So check it out,


        Actually, I think that Glenn M. Goffin posted a draft IED as well.
Did this one get missed?



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:05:53 -0700
Subject: Unit mottos (was: Re: Personal Piezo Generators)

On Mon, 21 Oct, Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net> said:
 
>Rich Ostorero wrote:
>>         Semper Fidelis -- Official Motto of the Imperial Marines.
>>        (unless you Commonwealth guys have a niftier motto; the only one I
>>know is
>>         that of the British SAS -- 'Who Dares Wins')

>The unfortunately now defunct Canadian Airborne, Osons (_WE_ dare!)

United States Army:

Infantry:  "Follow Me!"
Airborne:  "All the Way!"
Rangers:   "Lead the Way!"
Special Forces:  "Die Oppresso Liber"
Light Infantry:  "We Own the Night"

USMC (unoffcial):

"When it absolutley, positively, has to be destroyed overnight"
"Targets destroyed in 30 minutes, or the next one's free!"

USAF:

"Peace is Our Profession" (war is just a hobby)

United States Coast Guard:

"You have to go out; you don't have to come back" (motto of the Search and
Rescue teams)
+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: bolie@io.com (Bolie Williams IV)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:17:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

I personally would rather have the whole star map and fewer rules
since I can use GURPS for rules.  :)  I really like the Traveller
background and how detailed it is...  I guess some blank areas would
be fine, but I'd rather have enough to have a complete Imperium
without them...

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:36:53 -0500
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

>David, 
>
>I want to say first that I really enjoyed your post.

Thanks.


>David Blustein wrote:
>
>> Well, it seems like I still get the same target number for some
>> combinations of skill and attribute.
>> 
>> For example, for the skill, attribute pairs of (0,13), (1,9),
>> (2,5), and (3,1) I get a target number of 7 for all of them.
>
>This is true, but I feel I'm missing your point.  Is this a bad
>thing?
>
>... [snip] ... My question to you is what is wrong with the numbers
>matching up so.  Do you just feel wrong about it or feel that it is
>weighted wrong?  If I'm missing something, then please let me know.


I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

It just seems a little odd to me at first glance that zero skill
with a high stat has exactly the same chance of succeeding at a
task as high skill with the lowest possible stat.

When the target number is calculated based on a formula like
"a*skill + b*stat" and the number of dice thrown is based on
difficulty alone, in certain cases a high stat with a low
skill is as good as the opposite.


>... [snip] ... What I was trying to accomplish was a system that
>was skill based rather than attribute based.  You don't have a
>problem with a person (with Pilot-1, Dex-10) having a better chance
>to hit than another with a great skill (Pilot-4, Dex-6)?

With a MT-like task system the former would get DM+3 and the latter
would get DM+5. This makes sense to me and for me it makes sense for 
it to work that way.

The the T4 task system skews this a bit. ;-)

Using task system KB v1.1 we get target numbers of 7 & 11. That makes 
sense. All I noticed is that for certain combinations of high & low 
stats & skills the target numbers end up being the same and that 
seems odd to me.

IIRC, the original discussion began when someone noticed that it 
seemed like succeeding at "impossible" tasks appeared to be easier 
than one might otherwise expect. The other point that seemed to come 
up a lot, was the fact that high stat/low skill could easily equal 
low stat/high skill and that seemed odd, too.

In MT, Skill-4 with an average stat is always better than Skill-1 
with a high stat. This seems like a good thing. I suppose I'm looking 
for the equivalent or better in a T4 task system.

I'm pretty sure that varying the number of dice thrown based on skill
level should make high level skill give a better chance of success in
comparison to low skill levels for the same task in just about every 
case.


>Thanks for the words,

Anytime! ;-)


Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Michael Nutt <misha@crossrds.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:49:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship economics -- overhead charges, etc. (long)

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:

>Michael Nutt writes:

>>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>>>>bringing aboard all your new food supplies, 
>>>
>>>Cr 100 per crew, Cr 70 per passenger...
>> 
>>And this number strikes me as low, especially for anyone charging the rates
>>that standard passage costs. 
>
>I couldn't agree with you more, but I'd be inclined to lower the ticket costs
>myself.

This is a definite idea here. Maybe we could come up with something like
"steerage class" passage, rather than a low passage, to allow the passengers
to stay awake during the trip, and not require low berths to be
installed...lower overhead, and at least it is *some* profit generated by
that stateroom....

>>>I thought the crew did that.
>> 
>>Yes, but this is when you *pay* for it, rather than assessing you a 2 Cr
>>charge every time a light bulb burns out or something. That's why it's
>>called "overhead charge".
>
>Sure, but the overhead is far more than I can account for. Again, the
>problem is that you don't realize how expensive it is.

<shrug> Well, "expensive" is a relative term, I'm afraid. I personally
prefer to keep my players running with a significant cash flow, although I'm
careful about watching their accumulations. To me, a 2000 Cr overhead charge
per occupant seems a reasonable ballpark figure, given that no other
"overhead charges" get paid for the ship until annual overhaul.

<grin> My father bought a cabin cruiser last year, and I've learned from
watching him just how true it is that "a boat is a hole in the water into
which you throw money". To me, starships are just the same, only more so.

>>>You can REPLACE the food a passenger eats in 14 days for Cr100. Having
>>>10% of it spoil wouldn't put a dent in the budget, and with modern food
>>>preservation methods, let alone futuristic, that is highly unlikely.
>> 
>>As I said above, I think that number is way too low. My ballpark guess,
>>based on the (soc*250Cr)/month number for food, clothing, lodging, & etc.,
>>is that that number is low by a factor of 4, at least, maybe more. 
>
>Ah, there's the rub. That "Soc*250Cr" figure is a) A Megatraveller phenomenon
>that did not apply to Classic Traveller nor does it apply to T4 (that I have
>noticed), and b) completely bogus.
>
>Think about it: the difference between the living expenses of the lowest 
>level of a society (Soc 1) and the next higher level is supposed to be 100%!
>Do you really think that is realistic? Contrarywise, the difference between
>the living expenses of the gentry (Soc 10) and the lower nobility (Soc 11)
>is supposed to be a measly 10%! Does that ring true to you?
>
>Howsomever, according to page 64 of T4, good food is Cr 200 per month, good
>lodgings is likewise Cr 200 per month. Play with that figure a little and
>you'll get a minimum (subsistence level) wage of 1 Cr per hour. Oh, and I
>guess you're right about the trained technician bit. A good starship 
>engineer gets Cr 4800 per month, which works out at Cr 160 per day or Cr 20
>per hour. However, compared to a retirement pay (after 5 terms) of Cr 11 per 
>day, this is a fantastically high wage. My guess is that starship crew
>recieve considerably higher pay than ground-based crew. (Actually, my guess
>is that this is another place where noone has bothered to think the system
>through, but saying that isn't "playing the game".) 

Well, (and I *know* I'm committing heresy here... gimme a break, money's
tight right now!)... I don't own T4, and may not get it for some time.
Frankly, I want it, but right now, I'm still playing with the MT and CT
rules, and I like 'em. It doesn't strike me as terribly *bogus*, although it
*is* pretty artificial. After all, isn't one of the defining characteristics
of the "gentry" that they *do* want to be just like the folk who are their
nominal betters, and would thus try to buy many of the same things, for the
prestige value, if nothing else? And don't look at the changes on a
percentage basis, look at them as absolute changes... there's only a 250
Cr/month jump between each social level.

<grin> Your numbercrunching for the engineer assumes one watch in three
*every day*, too... and that's a pretty strong workload. He's also going to
get the additional benefits of free room and board, too, thus increasing his
effective wage. That retirement pay is also only based on 20 years service,
and if you play with pension numbers in real life a little, you'll see how
tiny they are at that age. They really only get *huge* after they get a few
more years to grow -- the miracle of compound interest.

But, about the "200 Cr/month for good food"... it still seems awfully low to
me, at something less than 7 Cr/day for a food budget. I would be tempted to
use a much larger number instead, but that's just me, I guess. More on this
later.

>>Also, regarding spoilage, have you ever worked in any sort of food service
>>operation? I'm a perishables supervisor for a local grocery store, and we
>>have lots of fresh foods that just don't last very long, even with
>>refrigeration. Ever eaten hamburger that was six days old? 
>
>I've eaten plenty of defrosted dinners that tasted OK. Still, as I said,
>even with a wastage of 10 or 20% (which I don't think is all that likely,
>but I'll grant it FPOA), the cost is only 10-20 Cr per passenger.

<chuckle> I see I'm still not getting my point across here. That's OK, it
took me almost two years to get it through my ex-wife's head, and you would
not have *believed* our grocery bills in that time...

Fresh foods will go bad quickly, even under the best of controlled
conditions. Produce is good for about a week or two, at most, even in
optimally controlled temperature and humidity environments, and many items
don't get anything like that long. Meat can be frozen, but that often
affects the taste. If not frozen, it rarely is good for more than four or
five days. OK, the stuff might be *edible*... as in, "it'll keep you from
starving"... but it won't taste nearly as good. Yes, you can eat canned and
otherwise preserved foods... but they so rarely have the same taste and
nutritional value as fresh foods. The US Navy does a lot with frozen foods,
and with an *amazing* variety of canned stuff, but just ask any submarine
sailor about how the food was on the last leg of a mission. He'll tell you
it gets pretty bad (compared to the first of the trip... I'm told it's still
decent), just because they don't have much left to work with.

Without some *radical* advance in food prep and storage, I'd require *total*
food replenishment every two weeks at the longest for a passenger-carrying
ship, and every four weeks for any other vessel that might reasonably expect
the crew to endure some less-than-appetizing chow. For *long-distance*
trips, where that just might not be possible, like scout and exploration
missions, I'd require some sort of sustainability measures to be plotted out
in advance... a cargo container full of MREs, or something like that, with
vitamin supplements. Bringing along a cargo vessel full of stores would be a
good plan, too.

>>If I pay High Passage prices, or even Middle Passage prices, and I have to 
>>eat frozen meals, or the Traveller equivalent of MRE's, I'm gonna be pissed 
>>off. I think you're overestimating the longevity of the galley stores.
>
>OK, I admit I was thinking about canned and frozen goods, not fresh food. So
>you have a point here. OTOH, do you really think food preservation techniques
>are going to stay at present-day level from now on? No improvement at all at
>higher TLs?

<shrug> I dunno. I think you might be able to get some sort of diet
concentrate that would keep you alive, but it'd be survival rations at best.
Most of the problem has to do with killing bacteria in the food, and not
damaging the food with extremes of temperature, and keeping the taste
intact. If you want to postulate that, well, go ahead... but it strikes me
as a copout similar to the Star Trek food replicators.

>>>But the rule dosen't say "Cr 2000 per occupant if you want to run a
>>>regular passenger ship" it says "Cr 2000 per occupant, period". Besides,
>>>even a regular passenger ship dosen't pay for nothing.
>> 
>>True. It's a rough number, given as an approximation. 
>
>Yep. But I believe that the approximation is unreasonable.

<grin> Then *change it*!! You don't like the "2000 Cr for overhead" number,
while I don't like the "200 Cr for food" number... but it's hardly essential
to the game either way. I think arguments can be made both ways for each
number, and you should pick whichever one suits you and your game best. For
*me* and my motley crew, we like the pricier game. It's a personal thing. I
*do* think it fits better with the older price structure from MT and CT that
I use... and maybe it *ought* to be changed to fit in with T4. I will say
that if you take that 200 Cr number for "good food", I think Hans is right
about the overhead charge being too high.

>>My own personal games usually have a *very rough* approximation of 2 Cr =
>>US$ 1, but this is obviously open to fudging either up or down. I personally
>>figure that about 2/3 of that overhead amount gets spent on food, etc., and
>>the rest gets spent on other various life-support related things, and minor
>>fungibles.
>
>Actually, that's the same sort of figure for the "other stuff" that I'd
>consider reasonable. I have been working with Cr 100 for food and Cr 100
>for the rest. If I accept that the food ought to be luxury rather than just 
>good then the cost for a passenger would be 200 for food and 100 for the
>rest. A crewmember would cost 300 for food and 100 for the rest. An 
>overhead of 300 per passenger and 400 per crew. That sounds quite
>reasonable; and on a Free Trader the PCs have the option of cutting this by 
>accepting something a little less satisfying than smoked salmon and caviar...
>
>Of course, with the overhead lowered I'd also lower the standard fares.
>OTOH I'd let jump-2 ships charge at least twice up for a jump-2.

<nodding> Yup, sounds roughly OK to me...like I said above, it just depends
on what number you want to start with. You take the T4 number, and I feel
more comfortable with something derived from the MT numbers.

I also like the idea of *allowing* the ship to charge that much, for
providing "express service", but I especially like the idea of non-fixed
rates for independents anyway. Also, I did like your point about getting a
price break for doing some of the upkeep/routine maintenance works yourself.
My groups tend to be heavy on grunts and traders, rather than techies, so my
folks never really got into that, but it's still a good point. You still
ought to have to pay for parts and fungibles and suchlike, but you can save
labor costs that way.

Michael


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #588
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 589

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
         2. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         3. Re: Where is everybody?
         4. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
         5. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         6. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
         7. Re: 3,2,1...0
         8. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
         9. Re: Check your guns at the door, please
        10. Christmas Wish List Auction
        11. UPP for Vland?
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562
        13. Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements
        14. Re: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:48:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

Rich,

I just want to say that I really enjoyed your post.  It was refreshing to read something 
like that on the TML.

I like that the list is this varied.  Hey, if you guys and gals have short stories, 
anecdotes from your games, Traveller items to sell, rules, questions, whatever, post it.

This list should be all things Traveller.  I like the variety--it keeps me coming back.

Keep up the good work,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:51:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> I think it is a bunch of crap leaving huge sections blank
> 
> Sounds like they wanna sell us a game and not do any background work.

Don't meance words, Amused.  What do you really mean?

Hey, I hear you, buddy.  You preach it.

Down with the blank areas!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:34:00 +0100
Subject: Re: Where is everybody?

>[snip]
>>PS. Marathon fans! I'm working on a Subsidized Merchant Marathon level.
>>Expect to see it soon, barring any influence from those pesky SolSec
>>agents. Anyone else working on Traveller themed Marathon levels?
>>
>[snip]

I'm working on my own Marathon style game for the Mac but I could always
give a hand in doing texmaps, players et c. Wouldn't it be cool to have
players that look like combat armour from Rebellion Sourcebook?

What mapeditor are you using? The Marathon Infinity editor isn't out yet I
guess so what's best at the moment?


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:37:35 +0100
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

>An AU is an Astronomical Unit, the mean distance between the Earth and the
>Sun (or about 150 million km).  A communicator with a 1000AU range can
>reliably communicate with any appropriate reciever anywhere within the same
>star system.  This exceeds the longest space combat range by a large amount.

Far companion stars are separated by 1T6 x 1000 AU, are there comm units
that can communicate this far? (Of course there are)


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:36:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Joe Walsh wrote:

> Hi Kenneth,

Hey, Joe.  How are ya!

> As I mentioned before, I normally agree with the idea that the solution
> that offers the widest range of possibilities is the "correct" solution
> and should therefore be used.  However, I'm willing to give this new way
> a shot.

Like I said before.  However IG does it, I'll buy it, but I prefer complete information. 
 I'd be much more excited about it if IG published complete stuff.

> That said, let me ask for a clarification from you:  What do you want IG
> to publish - UWPs for every world, with a few detailed worlds (culture,
> maps, etc.), or are you asking for every world to be detailed?
> 
> The latter doesn't seem reasonable, and I know you're a reasonable
> person, so I'm going to assume it's the former.  If I'm wrong about what
> you want, and I've therefore completely misunderstood what you are saying,
> please let me know. :)

You haven't misunderstood.  Let me be very clear.  I want complete UWPs on every world 
in the sector.  I want the new published data to be compatible with the old data that 
has been published.  This means that the Solomani Rim will still look like the Solomani 
Rim that I know.  The Spinward Marches will still be the Spinward Marches that I know.  
The sectors published by DGP in their magazines and supplements will still be the same 
(I know that there was a problem with the Judges Guild Ley and Gateway Sectors, but I'd 
like the info as complete and compatible as possible.)

Compatible means that the UWPs can be altered somewhat to reflect a specific milieu, 
i.e. the pops, TL, Law, Govt, Starport, etc can be altered for different times in the 
planet's history, like what was done in TNE, but the planet size, atmos, hydro, etc 
should stay the same.  The planet should be recognizeable to its stats in the 1100's.

I'd also like to see IG detail SOME of the worlds in each sector.  I mean completely 
detail them--outer planets and all things in the system.

If IG likes, I have no problem with them designating certain worlds as untouchable and 
reserved for referee use.  These planets would still have an official name and UWP, but 
IG would designate not to develop them in any supplements.  

I think this would solve the problem.

As you said in your post, in some instances, quickly rolling a UWP is not a difficult 
matter.  I don't want to get off on the tangent of time--I was using that to illustrate 
my point.  And that point is, I want complete, official info.

If others want to change it in their campaigns, then they can do it.  Why force this 
blank system thing on the many of us who don't want to see it?  I think doing the names 
and UWPs on the systems that they were going to leave blank is a great idea.  Secure 
these areas for GMs.  Those GMs that detail the system can either choose to use the 
official name and UWP, or they can change it to suit their needs.

The problem is, the people who are changing are still changing.  We who are not changing 
are forced to change when we don't want to.  Hey everyone, the system is not broke as it 
was before.



While we are talking about this, do you want to know what I'd really like to see?

I'd like to see IG come out with some supplements detailing sectors.  This could be a 
series with one sector per book, or some bigger unit, like doing all the domains 
together.  These would have names and UWPs for every world.  Some proportion would be 
detailed heavily with info on the entire systems, main planet, and space stations and 
objects.  There would be a section on sector politics, economics, governments, local 
races, local NPCs, adventure hooks, maybe a small, complete adventure, etc.

These could be milieu specific, or they could cover all time periods by having 
information pertinent to different times in the Imperium's history.  IG could designate 
some of the planets as non-developed sites for those referees who support the blank area 
idea.

Yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

Now, let's talk about IG implementing some sort of statistic to the UWP that relates how 
far a system is off the galaxy mean plane so that we could have a 3D Traveller Universe.

I mean, heck, it is almost the year 2000!  A space game should have some game mechanic 
to implement three dimensions.

But, I guess that's a discussion for another time...

Did I answer your question, Joe?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:40:45 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

John Macek wrote:

> Kenneth,
> I think you have hit on an elegantly simple fix to the target number problem.  I'll
> probably give it a try when my group meets on Wednesday.  It's simple enough that
> my players won't get bogged down in number crunching and close enough to original T4
> that they won't get confused by a sudden change of rules.
> Thanks,
> "Ensign" John

Thanks for the kind words, John.  Gee, it feels good to do something right.

Please let me know how your game goes.  I'd like to hear if you found any holes, or how 
your players responded to the system.

Are you using the T4 difficulty dice (Auto/1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4), or are you using my 
system (Auto/1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 4, 5)?

"Captain" Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:11:46 +0100
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

Wes Payne writes:
> This capability is inferred in TNE, but not dealt with in detail.  If I 
> recall correctly, an Exceptional Success on the astrogator's jump entry 
> task will result in a favorable change in real-space vector upon exit 

I always read this the other way.  The real-space vector is
unalterable, and it takes an exceptional success to position your exit
point accurately enough that the vector will just drop you into orbit.
If you mess this roll up, then although you come out at the right
planet, you come out with your vector pointing in the wrong direction
(the far side, above or below it, etc).

> [...] one would have to assume that some tinkering with real-space
> vectors on exit is possible just to avoid having to 'catch up' with
> one's destination system.

This is the result of a failed roll to position the exit point.  You
then have to burn in to catch up with the planet.

I play it as positioning the exit point, since you can jump to either
side of the planet, and don't necessarily have to jump directly
towards it, then the vector can be set up on leaving to become the
orbital insertion vector at the far end.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 04:22:33 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

David Blustein wrote:

> It just seems a little odd to me at first glance that zero skill
> with a high stat has exactly the same chance of succeeding at a
> task as high skill with the lowest possible stat.

This is not true.  Under my fix, a target number for a default skill is half the 
attribute--just like in T4.  If you have a skill, then this is doubled and added to half 
your attribute.  There is no way a zero skill character with a high stat will have the 
same target number as a character with the lowest possible stat, but high skill.

Let's look at this.  Charlie has no gun combat skill, but his dex is awesome--Dex 15.  
His target number would be 8, and rightly so for a person with such a natural ability.  
After all, he's got the highest dex of any man ever known to live.

Ok, compare Charlie to Doug.  Doug has a wonderful gun combat skill, level 7, but he's 
also almost crippled in the dex department--Dex 2.  Under my fix, Doug would have a 
target number of 15.  This is much higher than Charlie's 8.  

This is a skill based system.  Natural ability can only take you so far.  And, with 15 
being the highest stat, no zero level character will ever have better than an 8 target 
number--unless DMs push it up.  And 8 is the average point on both my and the T4 
difficulty system.  So, this is saying that the best ability can only make you average 
if you are not trained.  

Now if Charlie get's training, combined with his phenomonal natural ability, he'll be 
someone to reckon with.




> With a MT-like task system the former would get DM+3 and the latter
> would get DM+5. This makes sense to me and for me it makes sense for
> it to work that way.

Sure, this makes sense.  I really liked the MT system.  As a matter of fact, I had 
converted TNE to the MT task system and was using that before T4 came out.  But I've got 
to say, T4 has a better system.  Attributes mean more than they did in MT.  

You could only get a 0, +1, +2, or +3 modifier for attribute in MT, and the +3 only 
came when you had the highest stat possible.  T4 came along with a cleaner, simpler 
system that really takes advantage of natural ability (stat).  My system fixes the bias 
towards attribute without minimizing it like in MT.  My system says skill means the 
most, but natural ability helps too.


> Using task system KB v1.1 

Hmm.  Task System KB v1.1.  I really like that.  Thanks, I'll use it!


> IIRC, the original discussion began when someone noticed that it
> seemed like succeeding at "impossible" tasks appeared to be easier
> than one might otherwise expect. 

Yeah, I, uh, actually started that thread after my player had a 44% chance at an 
impossible task with a skill-4 and stat-9.  This is why I've changed staggering and 
impossible tasks to 4 and 5 dice.  

> The other point that seemed to come
> up a lot, was the fact that high stat/low skill could easily equal
> low stat/high skill and that seemed odd, too.

I don't think this is odd.  Natual ability should count for something.  What I'm saying 
is that it should not count as everything.

Low stat/high skill means the person benefits from skill more--which is what we want.

High stat/low skill means that only sometimes, at very high attribute levels, does a 
person benefit from natural ability more.  Since we are doubling skill, it catches up 
with the half attribute real quick.

> In MT, Skill-4 with an average stat is always better than Skill-1
> with a high stat. This seems like a good thing. I suppose I'm looking
> for the equivalent or better in a T4 task system.

My system does this, but natural ability counts for more than it did in T4.  I think 
that this is a good thing.  Here's your example with my system.

Peter:  Skill-4, Stat-7			Mary:  Skill-1, Stat-15
Target number is 12			Target number is 10

The high skill still wins out over high ability eventhough Mary has the highest ability 
possible.  Natural ability counts for something, but training means more.

> I'm pretty sure that varying the number of dice thrown based on skill
> level should make high level skill give a better chance of success in
> comparison to low skill levels for the same task in just about every
> case.

Maybe you misunderstood my system, because as I have shown you above, my system does 
this as well--and it does it with minimal changes to the system published in T4, which 
was my goal in the first place.

So, bring it on back, David.  Did I clear up this thing any?

Sincerely,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:03:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please

>I've been a little out of the loop, and am about forty digests behind, so
>maybe you're already discussing this item at length.  If so, please
>accept my apologies for wasting bandwith.
>
>In T4, one of the sidebars indicates that while it is forbidden to bring
>weapons into Imperial buildings, private businesses are prohibited from
>barring weapons.  Did anyone else read that and say "Whoa!  what's up?!"
>
>What kind of justification have you developed for this interesting piece
>of early Imperial legislation?  Does this serve some Imperial purpose?
>
>--Glenn

It simply proves that Marc & friends are American ie the only inalienable
right a human has is the right to bear arms.


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:33:45 -0700
Subject: Christmas Wish List Auction

You people aren't going to believe this.

I've got a friend who's been collecting comics, and for years, he's been buying many 
from this guy who operates out of his house.  So, I'm with my friend the other day, and 
he decides to stop by the comic guy's place to get his monthly fix.  I'm there for the 
first time, and what do I find?  

Traveller Stuff!  Yes, beautiful, mint condition, never been purchased before, original 
CT Traveller Stuff.  I was in heaven.  

I purchased all he had.

I got the first edition of Snapshot, unopened, still in the wrapper!  I just love it.  
Ain't life grand?  

The guy said life is funny that way.  He's had it since it was published in 1979.  It's 
been through two stores that he's owned, and nobody has ever bought it.  He saw how 
flabbergasted I was, and he mentioned that it was just ironic that he's had it all these 
years only to have it fall into the hands of a true Traveller fan--someone who can 
really appreciate it.

Well, I've filled in some missing holes in my collection, and I let my gaming group pick 
their spoils.  To my dismay, I still have some items left.

And, like my Snapshot boxed set, I thought that I would give these wonderful pieces of 
literature a chance to find a home with someone who would really appreciate them.

What better place to do this than on the Traveller Mailing List?

So, sharpen your pencils for your Christmas lists, I'm going to do my first Traveller 
Auction.  

All items (but one) are in mint condition.  The auction will last until November 21st, 
and I'll post updates at least once per week.  Only US currency can be accepted, and 
postage will be over and above the bid price.

E-mail all bids to me directly at dreamer@brokersys.com.  If two equal bids are sent, 
then I will look at the time sent as the deciding factor.  The auction is open to 
everyone, and you don't have to be on this list to bid.

OK, so here's the golden find:



Item#1 	Original CT Traveller game. 

	Ya, know, the little black books in that little black box.  Stuff about the free 
	trader Beowulf on the outside.  It's still in its shrink wrap, and I can hear 
	the original dice rattle around inside!  

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $80



Item#2	Adventure-1 The Kinunir.

	Take your group on any of 4 adventures aboard a 1200 ton Kinunir class battle 
	cruiser.  Book includes rumors, battle cruiser specs, map and info of the Regina 
	subsector, library data, NPC crew, and complete deck plans.  

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#3	Adventure-2 Research Station Gamma.

	Adventure on the planet Vanejen in the Spinward Marches and discover a secret 
	Imperial Research facility.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#4	Adventure-10 Safari Ship

	Anybody for a hunting trip?  An amateur scientist needs your help to capture a 
	rare animal.  Book includes planetary/subsector maps and complete deck plans of 
	the 200 ton Animal class safari ship.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#5	Adventure-11 Murder on Arcturus Station

	It's a who-dunnit, Traveller style.  

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#6	Double Adventure-3 The Argon Gambit/Death Station

	Help a patron with a blackmail plot by breaking into a villa or fly out to 
	investigate the sudden loss of communication with a lab ship.  Book contains 
	complete deck plans of the 400 ton lab ship.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#7	Double Adventure-6 Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest

	Get caught up in conflict on a newly contacted world or deal with the problems 
	of a world with a religious dictatorship.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#8	The Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6

	Featuring an article about the Imperial Imterstellar Scout Service by Loren 	
	Wiseman and Marc Miller.  	 
	
	Also has two Amber Zone adventures, High Guard pull out with 			
	additional/corrected rules, an article about the stock exchange in Traveller, 	
	Bestiary about Dolphins, Ship's Locker with a model 317 pressurized shelter, and 
	the Traveller News Service from 1106.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9

	

Item#9	The Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #17 (Atmospheres)

	Featuring a pull out Special Supplement 2--Exotic Atmospheres book.

	Also has close air support rules for Mercenary, a Striker adventure to go with 	
	Double Adventure 5-The Chamax Plague/Horde, Contact the Jgd-ll-jagd, Traveller 	
	News Service from 1109, Bestiary with an ice crawler, Ship's Locker with Assault 
	Rocket Launcher and Image Converter sights, and Random Notes about Solomani, 	
	Vilani, and Zhodani names.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#10	The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Volume 2

	Includes selected articles from Journals 5 to 8.

	Features 5, count 'em, 5 Amber Zone adventures, and Contacts for Vargr and 	
	Aslan.	

	Also has articles on speculative trade without a starship, notes on refereeing 	
	Traveller, starport details, the Traveller Stock Exchange, and the Interstellar 
	Scout Service (by Loren Wiseman and Marc Miller).

	And there's more:  Bestiary on the Dolphins and Ship's Locker containing LSP 	
	pressurized shelter (by Marc Miller!), lifeboats, and rescue balls.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#11	The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Volume 3

	Includes selected articles from Journals 9 to 12.

	Features 4 Amber Zone adventures, Contacts of Virushi and Newts, and expanded 	
	rules for medical treatment.

	Also has articles on the care and feeding of NPCs, a referee's guide to planet 	
	building, archaic missle weapons, Bestiaries for ragfish, bloodvarks, tree rats, 
	and kian, and Casual Encounters with Dev Landrel (scientist/ancients 	
	archeologist) and Princess Glorinna Firella (noble/heiress).

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#12	The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Volume 4

	Includes selected articles from Journals 13 to 16.

	Features 4 Amber Zone adventures, Contacts of the Darrians and the Ael Yael, and 
	a wonderful article on SuSAG by Loren K. Wiseman.

	Also includes articles on languages in Traveller, bank retaliation on those who 
	skip with starship loans, and additional/optional rules for High Guard.

	There's also a Casual Encounter with Lothario Lochinvar Finger (free trader), a 
	Bestiary with the crested jabberwock, and Ship's Locker with torches and welding 
	equipment.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#13	Supplement 1-1001 Characters
	
	Need a quick NPC?  In this supplement, there's, well, 1001 characters to choose 
	from complete with UPP and skills.  There are tables for Naval, Marine, Army, 
	Scout, and Merchant personnel as well as 136 characters drawn from the Other 
	category.  The book also has encounter tables for troops, policemen, and thugs 
	as well as 9 characters drawn from popular science fiction literature.

	Condition:  Worn
	Min. Bid:  $3



Item#14	Supplement 2-Animal Encounters
	
	Having trouble with the tables and missing info in T4?  This is the supplement 	
	for you.  It features notes on encounter generation and mucho encounter tables 	
	based on location and atmosphere.

	Contition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $9



Item#15	MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia by Marc W. Miller

	A great source of information and library data.  Contains maps detailing the 
	wars of the Imperium, a consolidated time line with Imperial, Aslan, K'kree, 
	Vilani, Solomani, and Zhodani time systems, a discussion of all of the Imperial 
	Emperors from Cleon through Strephon, section on nobility, a library section for 
	players, a library section for referees, Traveller equipment, Traveller vehicles 
	and starships, a section on space travel, starship operating procedures flow 
	charts, and UWPs for the Spinward Marches.

	Condition:  Mint
	Min. Bid:  $12

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:39:23 +1000
Subject: UPP for Vland?

Hi,

I am just about to start writing my Vilani Military Ranks article for
issue #2 of Dark Star - and I realised that there's nothing in any of the
material I have easy access to that gives the UPP for the Vilani
Homeworld! I badly need this to make some final decisions on which way to
go with the ranks and organisation (almost all the other research is done)
... so, could anyone oblige by giving it to me? I know it was in one of
the old Traveller or DGP pubs ("Vilani and Vargr"?). Any help would be
appreciated!

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:16:40 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #562

In mail you write:

>> Marc, this will work as long as you clearly demark which areas are,
>> well, 'de-Marced' as strictly for referees.  That way people can
>> safely develop areas knowing that future IG products will fit right
>> in with their campaigns.  And those of us that don't have time to
>> lovingly detail sectors can rely on the official background, which
>> will of course include fairly large contiguous areas for
>> adventuring. 

> And of course the PCs would never dream of wandering over into areas 
> they know the ref knows nothing about, just to be awkward...

If they do that sort of thing deliberately, then they are more
interested in being a pain than in playing the game. And as such, I'd
nail them big time.

Players that try to make things awkward for the GM *need* to be taught
that it's no more acceptable than cheating on rolls or trying to
"ignore" inconvenient rules. The game is there for everybody to enjoy.
Being a pain is not a good idea.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:00:27 PST
Subject: Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements

In mail you write:

> Anything illegal on the destination world.  For example I heard a
> radio report last night that stated CFC (the ozone depleting gas) is
> being smuggled through Florida in larger ammounts than cocaine...
> Imagine the players surprise when their valuable illegal cargo turns
> out to be some common "harmless" item on another world.

Or use the idea for a Retief story. You are cheerfully importing
hi-tech household appliances (and possibly getting a government subsidy
for doing so). It's just amazing that you can sell so many to this poor
planet. 

At the same time, the local guerillas are getting high tech weapons
from *somewhere*. But the local authorities are going nuts trying to
figure out *where*.

The two items are related. You see, you sold the local guerillas the
fact that certain components from the appliances can be used in
combination as the basis for weapons. You need to make stocks and some
connecting pieces, but even so.... :-)

By the time the local government figures it out, it'll be too late.
Even if they attempt to confiscate the appliancs, the parts will be
stripped faster than they can confiscate things.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:27:42 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Jewish Sabbath in Space

In mail you write:

> At 09:14 AM 10/18/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>>But that still leaves a problem for Jews and Moslems, to wit:
>>> How does one ensure that one faces/bows toward Jerusalem/Mecca
>>> when engaged in prayer?
>
> It is very simple.  For Moslems, they simply orient a stone or indicator at
> their landing site towards terra, and then declare that direction "Toward
> Mecca". If you got to a new planet, you CERTAINLY have enough technology to
> determine the direction of Terra when you land.  It would also give the
> Mullah or Sultan who controlled the spaceport a definate social power.

Slight problem. The direction "towards Mecca" depends on the time of
day, and time of year, because the planet *rotates*, and it also moves
in it's orbit. As a good example, consider the direction "towards
Orion's Belt" from Earth. That too depends on time of day, and time of
year. 

Look up "local Sidereal time" in a good reference on astronomy. A given
star (other than the pole star or stars) will always be in the same
direction at the same local sidereal time. But the sidereal day on
Earth is something like 14 minutes shorter than the solar day (it
invoves the ratio between the solar day and the year)

> The same sort of thing can be done for Jerusalem, New York, or Graceland
> (for the First Church of Elvis the Divine, Third Reformation)

It'll be the same direction to *far* more accuracy than any human is
capable of pointing.

>>Muslim scholars have used the Koran to argue for and against votes/rights
>>for women.  Depends on which section you use, and how you interpret a
>>passage.  Assuming that the Koran is like the Christian bible, you can
>>'prove' _anything_ if you read passages out of context.
>
> The Koran is NOT like the bible, in that ALL Korans, written in Arabic, are
> identical.  Many interpretations can be drawn, but the original text is
> always the same.  Technically, translating the Koran into other languages is
> forbidden.

He didn't say that. He's assuming that the text *is* subject to
interpretation, and can be taken out of context. And you've confirmed
that. 

> Even more disruptive is the practice of praying 5 times a day as a
> requirement on all Muslims.  During drive recalibration?  Combat (and in
> Arabia, battles HAVE stopped for prayer)?

Better yet, how will they handle the requirement that months start when
the new moon is first *observed*? Even on Mars that'll be a problem. If
they go with "observed at Mecca", it'll take *weeks* or *months* for
the news to get to various stars. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #589
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 590

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Dark Star
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567
         3. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         4. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         5. Re: Hardcovers in Canada
         6. Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships
         7. Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements
         8. Quoting
         9. Starship economics
        10. Re: UPP for Vland?
        11. [Traveller Answer] Re: Life-Support Cost

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 12:02:47 GMT
Subject: Dark Star

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : Dark Star
DATE     :  Tue Oct 22 11:49:45 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

I'm about 10 digests behind due to being off - but catching
up fast - so forgive me if you've already heard all this.

While I was away, 'Dark Star' turned up in the post.  No, not
the fanzine edited by Graver which had (5?) issues back in
the 80s, this a new (irregular) fanzine from TMLer Phil
McGregor.

For those who want to buy a copy it's definitely worth it
(and no, Phil, didn't pay me to say this!).  The first issue
entitled "An Occasional Traveller Resource" has some 30 pages
and articles on Vilani Noble ranks and Equipment
Compatibility.  It also has an alternate character
genearation system (expanded in certain areas from MMT) and a
revised Skill list (additional skills, modified skill
applications and modified skills).  There was also a half
page 'Trader's Corner' with three items I want to buy *now*!

I haven't had a chance to wade through the char gen and
skills sections yet but they look thorough and workmanlike and for
those who think the chapter on character generation in MMT is
less than ideal might well be worth checking out.

The articles on the Vilani and Equipment, I found
interesting, well conceived (though a few minor quibbles
crept in!) and thought provoking.  Certainly they would
provide some good ideas for just about any campaign/adventure.

The only noticeable lack was that of graphics, anyone with
any skill in this area could contribute *something*, but you
might argue about how useful a graphic is anyway.

Have to go, but personally, I'll look forwared to issue 2 and
not hesitate in recommending this to any T devotee.

Timothy

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:27:19 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #567

In mail you write:

> Exactly. We want a finished product, not something with 'this area 
> intentionally left blank. The rest of the work is left as an exercise 
> for the reader' written on it.

You seem to be operating under a *very* mistaken impression here. What
*I* have heard people asking for is that there be areas that IG doesn't
detail. So for those, all that would officially exist would be the
partial data available without visting the systems. And they'd likely
be listed in either supplements that cover *large* areas, or in
something that is rather explicitly marked as only having partial data.

Anything you buy that has full data for a region won't cover these
regions.  So it'd be no different from having full data for Spinward
Marches and Solomani Rim, but nothing for many other sectors (except
the partial data from Atlas of the Imperium).

> << On the one hand, my view on many different types of products (RPGs, 
> computers, computer programs, etc.) is that the option which provides 
> the most flexibility should be provided.  So, usually, I would agree 
> that there should be an "official" set of sector data for ALL areas of 
> the Traveller setting.  Those who want to use them can do so.  Those who 
> don't can make up their own stuff.  Maximum flexibility. >>
>
> This is the view of a lot of people. It's the way Traveller has always 
> been done, and it should stay that way.

Sorry, but Traveller has *never* been done that way! 

CT had a couple of Subsectors, and slowly added things to give some
sectors in different areas, few of them connecting. And refs were
*expected* to come up with their own areas. MT continued the
trend, but Atlas of the Imperium had *partial* data for most of
imperial space.

Frankly, I was starting to get *very* annoyed because there weren't any
"unexplored" areas near any of the official ones. So I couldn't set up
a campaign that had folks actually exploring "new" areas, unless I
moved them clear off the map. And I'm not the only one. 

Do things your way and a ref who wants to run an "exploration and
contact" type game has to scrap *all* the official material, simply
because either his players *will* read it, or some "official" item will
screw him over by having a major detail that conflicts with his stuff.

> << However, in this case, I'm beginning to get the impression that a lot 
> of folks (not necessarily TMLers) will allow Official Data to restrict 
> their creativity.  It becomes "canon," even if they don't know the term. 
> [G] >>
>
> That's never been a problem in the past, why should it be now? And as 
> long as people are having fun (just to remind people why we're here), 
> what does it matter if they're not quite being as creative as they could 
> be?

It's a problem because (for example) about the time you have folks
exploring your "unexplored" area, GDW would decide to stage a major war
there, or do something else that essentially rendered the "official"
background *useless* from then on. 

Having areas set aside for "referee use only" means that can't happen.
It's a lot less likely that you'll get your background jerked out from
under you.

The Fifth Frontier war was an annoyance. The Rebellion, and everything
that followed warped all available materials more and more in
directions that I had no interest in following. 

Official material might as well not be there if it disrupts a GMs
campaign. And having stuff like "new" sector data that *depends* on an
"official plotline" gets pretty frustrating. 

It's one thing to detail an area, knowing that it's "free". It's quite
another to do so and constantly have to deal with things like official
library data that conflicts, new players who "know" things that aren't
true, etc.

> << So, if I assume that this will be handled intelligently (that sectors 
> to be developed officially will be clearly marked, etc.), I think the 
> "blank sector data" method will be best. >>
>
> But you can get the same effect by just saying 'referees are free to 
> change or ignore anything they see here to fit in with their own 
> personal view of the universe'. That way, *everyone* is happy. Full data 
> will piss off nobody - those who were going to fill in the blanks will 
> do so anyway - whereas holes will make many people very angry. They may 
> even not buy the book(s), on the grounds that if they're being forced to 
> write some of it they might as well save their money and do it all. New 
> refs may also be put off, and buy something they can use straight out of 
> the box instead.

Full data pisses people off because it means that they have data that
is useless to them, and worse, that GETS IN THE WAY when trying to do
their own version.

You are *assuming* that "books" would have some sections detailed and
some not. That's a *damned* stupid way to do it. Books should covered
the detailed areas. Other books can give the (much lesser) details for
the "free" areas. 

That way refs like *you* can skip the "overview" type books, and just
buy the ready to use ones. I can buy the ready to use ones that border
a likely free area and grab an overview book for the stellar positions,
and go from there. 

I want official areas that border "ref only" areas so that I can base
the players somewhere consistent, but still have them exploring unkown
territory.

> << Besides, I bet there will be folks who will put a lot of effort into 
> developing certain regions of space, then release those online (esp. now 
> that they know IG won't come along and publish the result of their hard 
> work w/o their permission[G]) for all of us to use. >>
>
> So you want to replace an official canon, available to everyone, with an 
> unofficial one only available online?

No. The idea is that by keeping a certain minimal consistency in the
"free" areas, it makes it easier for folks to post neat ideas for
specific systems, which other refs can grab if they want to. 

The online stuff wouldn't be canon, it'd be "this is the neat idea I
came up with for this hex". And both fanzines and JTAS could carry such
items too as being examples of how some folks have detailed things. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:01:22 PST
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Amused to Death wrote:
>
>> No, It Wasn'T ME, IT WASN'T MEEEEEEEEE
>
> Citizens:
>
> The traitor known as "Amused to Death" has turned out to be a highly 
> skilled and effective spy.  He was able to elude our SolSec agents, and 
> is now on the run.  
>
> Please remain calm.  You are in no danger.  However, due to the nature of 
> this incident, we have been forced to announce that it is necessary to 
> institute a new policy regarding freedom of movement.  Honest citizens 
> will be affected in only the slightest of ways.  
>
> When one of the friendly SolSec agents being dispatched thoughout the 
> territory asks you for your identification, or requests assistance in any 
> way, please show full cooperation.  

A tired looking man is stopped and asked to show his ID by a pair of
SolSec agents. He carefully withdraws an ID folder from an inner pocket
with two fingers (which immediately lets anyone watching *know* that
this man is both *very* familiar with weapons and also familar with the
proper way to avoid giving the impression he is reaching for one).

He opens the folder, flips to a card and displays it to one of the
agents who reads it and turns white. The other raises a scanner to scan
the card before he reads it... The scanner readout flashes "valid ID"
and also a *very* high security code. The second agent then looks at
the card...

	The bearer of this card is not to be delayed, detained or
	imprisoned under ANY circumstances. He is to be given the
	fullest co-operation...

(Basicly, the SolSec version of the old CIA "Get out of Jail free" card
they issued in Nam... :-)

	Last night I met upon the stair,
	A little man who wasn't there.
	He wasn't there again today,
	I think he's with the CIA...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:17:12 PST
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

In mail you write:

> How nice! Another grenade pin for my collection. (loud pop of displaced
> air filling the place where I stood)

I guess you didn't read the "Ship's Locker" item in JTAS about the new
SolSec issue dummy grenades with explosive pins? The ones that exude an
instant set glue when pulled?

But then, you didn't *need* those fingers anyway. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:14:27 PST
Subject: Re: Hardcovers in Canada

In mail you write:

> On 19 Oct 96 at 16:54, Joe Walsh spewed:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Charlie wrote:
>> 
>> >  I am so mad. I note in  the above Mail that You too know about
>> >  the Chip
>> > version of T4. I swear I paid in advance for My copies T4 Chips
>> > both Mac and PC Versions. Where are My Copies? 
>> 
>> Had me going for a second there Charlie. :)
>> 
>
> As for me, I'm just trying to figure where MM would sign them...

3.5 microns from the upper left corner of the chip mask. You need at
least 10000x magnification to read it.

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:38:33 PST
Subject: Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships

In mail you write:

>>Now it's true that there may be old records. But they are only adequate
>>for size, type and number of planets. Atmosphere and hydro are things
>>that *can* be affected by the "fall of civilization" and similar
>>events, even at thse tech levels.
>
> OK, you got me. How could the fall of civilization affect hydrographic
> percentages and Gas Giants? Please explain.

I never said Gas Giants were affected. But Hydro can be. Low hydro can
be reduced even further by planetary bombardment (throwing rocks). All
you have to do is heat a thin atmosphere a bit and the rate of hydrogen
(and thus water) loss goes *way* up. Ditto for atmosphere. If somebody
dumps enough small rocks or a few *big* rocks, the planet's atmosphere
can change rather drastically.

It's also possible to *increase* the hydro or atmosphere by throwing
comets. 

For example, we actually could give the moon an atmossphere that would
last for 10-100 thousand years! just arrange to "soft land" a few
hundred comets.

> Agreed. Which is why I would advocate publishing such long unvisited
> worlds as, f.ex., ?678???-?.

The atmosphere could *easily* slide to (or from!) tainted at the same
pressure. And the hydro might change by a category as well. I'm not
certain, but I think that Earth's Hydro percentage varies with the ice
age cycles. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:59:36 PST
Subject: Re: T4:  Smuggling Operations, payment arrangements

In mail you write:

> Considering the recent discussions on the difficulties of running
> profitable cargo without speculation, I had to wonder about the
> smuggling end of things.

> 1.  Payment arrangements:  Assuming someone agrees to run an illicit cargo,
> and did not just outright buy the illegal cargo and sell at a profit as a
> normal speculative cargo haul, how would they arrange payment?  A free
> trader captain could easily take the cargo and run, keeping his fee and
> whatever cargo he  stole, and keep on heading west so to speak.  The person
> wanting the run can't very well tell the authorities that his illegal goods
> were stolen.
>
> Any nifty ideas?  One I was thinking was that a typical arrangement would be
> 1/4 to 1/2 up front, with balance upon delivery from the folks it's being
> delivered to.  

Check out the real world. Smuggling seems to work one of two ways.

1. You buy the cargo outright at the local price, and if you succeed in
   getting it thru, sell it at whatever you can get at the other end.
   Profits tend to depend on risk factors. Smuggled drugs are *very*
   risky and you make a big profit. Smuggled watches aren't too risky,
   and the profit is lower (basicly you are just avoiding customs
   duties).

2. You are a paid "courier". You get a hazard bonus, but it isn't
   anything near what the profit is. You are usually carrying the stuff
   from one *organization* to another. They *will* have a handle on
   you, be it family, addiction, or just being spread out over all the
   places you are likely to run to.

Number 2 is a *lot* rarer, and is *only* workable if the contracting
groups have a reasonable assurance that the courier *won't* skip.

Case number one is overwhelming the case for things like drugs, booze,
and tobacco. Since you are either picking up the cargo where it is
*legal* and cheap, or at least where it can be obtained without too
much trouble, the cost is quite low compared with the selling price.

Look up details on how things like heroin or cocaine move. The folks
who grow the plants get paid $50-100 which is several times what they'd
get for a normal, legal crop. The folks that bought that process it at
a cost of a hundred or less in chemicals and a day or so's work to
produce the drug. They now have somethiong they can sell for $5-10k.
This gets bought by the smuggler who can turn his $5-10k investment
into at least $100k in payoff. And the distributors he sells to cut it
and the resulting stuff will sell on the street for $10 million or so
(after going thru at least a couple more levels of handling).

So if a smuggler gets caught with "$100 million street value" in drugs,
it's no big deal on the sending end. They are out *maybe* $10k. And if
it was a cash up front deal, like most, they aren't out anything. They
just make up another batch and find another optimist to try to deliver
it. 

Quite literally, all the anti-smuggling efforts amount to is a *price
support* system for the folks receiving the smuggled goods (assuming
it's something with a relatively "fixed" demand, like drugs)


> 2.  Cargos:  Another thing, what would be some typical high pay, high risk
> smuggling cargos in the T4 universe?  Would it be the usual - drugs, or more
> exotic.  I'm looking for what other people use in their campaigns, just for
> amusement and variety - I have plenty of ideas on this on my own, such as:

Drugs have a lot of variations. Including nasties like Jack Chalker's
"sponge" from the Well World series. "Sponge" isn't a drug per se. It's
the only known *antidote* to a rather nasty parasite. The trouble is,
the antidote only *stops* the infestation, it doesn't cure it. If you
don't get your dose in time you can feel the parasite working on you
rather painfully. Go without long enough and you are a pain wracked
vegetable... 

> illicit organ trade (in the real world this is expected to exceed the
> illicit drug trade in ten years or so) or are their medical technology
> reasons in the T4 universe that make this obsolete.

The big problem with the organ trade is typing & cross matching. And
the storage problems. In combination, they'd tend to make it a
self-limiting trade. You have to find a matching donor, and *kidnap*
them unless they are in the same system as the person who needs the
organ. Especially since, given the com lag, you can't know if they've
*already* found a donor. Which is safer? Kidnapping the "donor",
shipping him (in low berth) to the destination and then shipping him
back if they already have one, or stealing the organ, and then
discovering that you've wasted your time?

Given that some "donations" are going to be fatal, I'd rather slip the
guy into a low berth. Among other things, while there's added risk in
the shipping, you *know* where to get the organ the *next* time the
customer needs one.

Though there are a *lot* of things that could make this sort of thing
obsolete. Decent regeneration technology, or some means of making the
body accept "non matching" tissue *without* use of immunosuppresant
drugs.

> military hardware (I figure this one would be a very lucrative, stable cargo
> - there are never enough weapons)

Not really. The weapons market is rather limited. First of all, the
weapons people want, aren't cheap (except in rare cases where what they
want is the equivalent of a standard issue combat rifle!). So that cuts
into your profits, as there *is* a limit to what folks will pay. 

Second, it's an inherently *dangerous* business. You are *guaranteed*
to be dealing with heavily armed people, usually on *their* turf. They
may occasionally decide that they would rather get this current
shipment for free than keep getting "ripped off" by your "exorbitant"
prices.

> If a ship carried a library of technological specs and plans, and samples
> from a TL12 system, and went to TL7,8,9,10, etc. worlds, couldn't they sell
> this technology for mega bucks?
>
> I mean, if in our world, a TL12 free trader showed up, what country wouldn't
> pay anything they wanted in trade?  I'm sure there is something on our world
> that would be valuable to a TL12 trade system, such as radioactives or raw
> materials.

Slight problem. If you were given passage on a flying saucer to a world
at 1920 tech level, what could you sell them in the way of technical
plans? Answer: Damn little. They can't *make* most of the stuff that's
interesting. They don't have the technology to build the *components*.
Nor the infrastructure to make good use of most of it.

While in reality, it'd be a lot more complicated, I'd say that given
full specs *and theory*, a civilization could duplicate items one tech
level higher, but only as expensive and rare items. Items two tech
levels out can't be duplicated AT ALL.

This makes some sense. If they could easily produce an item at a given
tech level, they'd *be* at the that tech level. 

But going back to my example of 1996 vs 1920, consider this. They can't
duplicate a jet fighter because they can't produce most of the
*materials* used. Titanium takes *very* specialized handling or else it
is brittle. It also has to be machined and formed under very
non-standard (for 1920) conditions. To start with, you need to process
it in a vacuum furnace to remove hydrogen. They don't have the tech to
build the furnace!

Carbon fiber, anything with semiconductors, all require purity levels
that aren't achievable with chemical processing tech of the period. So
you have to tell them how to build the tools to build the parts. And
take that back thru several regressions.

There *will* be the occasional idea that is doable at a lower tech
level, but wasn't discovered there. But those are essentially random
occurences. It'd take unusual insight by both buyer *and* seller. And
unless we want to detail tech stuff to ridiculous levels, it'd all have
to be doubletalk anyway.

A couple of examples I happen to know of:
1. "composition" (aka "carbon") resistors could have been made any time
   after electricity was discovered. It just never occured to anyone
   until WWII or so.
2. Electroplating. There's some speculation that it was discovered by
   accident in ancient mesopotamia. Even if it wasn't, a simple "cell"
   suitable for plating gold onto most metals is possible at *very* low
   tech levels.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:58:13 PST
Subject: Quoting

In mail you write:

> In-Reply-To: <9610162347.AA03383@NS.MPGN.COM>
>
> << From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:43:39 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: Uncharted space
>
> On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>
>>         I suppose it could be a great idea (I applauded the same story 
> when
>> it was told about Foreven in Imperiallines 1), but, personally, if I
>> purchase something which charts a Sector, I would prefer to found 
> stats for
>> the whole Sector. >>
>
> Exactly. We want a finished product, not something with 'this area 
> intentionally left blank. The rest of the work is left as an exercise 
> for the reader' written on it.

Could you *please* use standard quoting. It makes it *very* hard to
read your stuff, especially when you are quoting stuff with several
levels of older quotes in it.

The same goes for the fellow who is not using any quote markers at all.
If my read wasn't "threaded" I'd be *completely* unable to figure out
his posts.

There *is* a standard for quoting on the Internet. And not only does
most software use it, there is software that *requires* it to work
properly. 

The standard is essentially this:

Add the string "> " to the lefthand end of any lines being quoted for
the first time. Add the string ">" to the lefthand end of any string
that has already been quoted. 

Also, while line lengths are unlimited, it is considered polite to keep
original text postings to a line length of no more than 72, so as to
allow for quoting without requiring re-wrapping of lines (due to 80
column limits on many displays)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:52:09 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Starship economics

Michael Nutt writes:
>>Ah, there's the rub. That "Soc*250Cr" figure is a) A Megatraveller phenomenon
>>that did not apply to Classic Traveller nor does it apply to T4 (that I have
>>noticed), and b) completely bogus.
>
> 		...It doesn't strike me as terribly *bogus*, although it
>*is* pretty artificial. After all, isn't one of the defining characteristics
>of the "gentry" that they *do* want to be just like the folk who are their
>nominal betters, and would thus try to buy many of the same things, for the
>prestige value, if nothing else? And don't look at the changes on a
>percentage basis, look at them as absolute changes... there's only a 250
>Cr/month jump between each social level.

I don't quite understand your argument here. My whole point was that when
you think about the implication of the rules (the percentages), it turns
out to be highly artificial. That's just why I consider it bogus (But
perhaps I'm using that word incorrectly?)

><grin> Your numbercrunching for the engineer assumes one watch in three
>*every day*, too... 

I'd expect workloads to be less strenuous while in jump. While this need not
be true for engineers it certainly is true for astrogators and pilots... and
they get higher wages than engineers. Every other week off... not bad working
conditions, IMO. (Though I'd invest a goodish bit of that salary in books and
tapes and computer games ;-)

>and that's a pretty strong workload. He's also going to get the additional 
>benefits of free room and board, too, thus increasing his effective wage. 

That just makes the standard crew salaries even more disproportionate.

>But, about the "200 Cr/month for good food"... it still seems awfully low to
>me, at something less than 7 Cr/day for a food budget. I would be tempted to
>use a much larger number instead, but that's just me, I guess. More on this
>later.

That's just because you've assumed that the credit is worth less than the
rules actually imply. The problem isn't any one figure; it's two figures
that on examination seens disproportionate.

>>OK, I admit I was thinking about canned and frozen goods, not fresh food. So
>>you have a point here. OTOH, do you really think food preservation techniques
>>are going to stay at present-day level from now on? No improvement at all at
>>higher TLs?
> 
><shrug> I dunno. I think you might be able to get some sort of diet
>concentrate that would keep you alive, but it'd be survival rations at best.

As you yourself mention, we've already got something that is a lot better
than that (army rations). Besides, frozen food isn't quite as bad as you
claim, IMO of course.

>Most of the problem has to do with killing bacteria in the food, and not
>damaging the food with extremes of temperature, and keeping the taste
>intact. If you want to postulate that, well, go ahead... but it strikes me
>as a copout similar to the Star Trek food replicators.

It strikes you as a cop-out to assume that people in the future can do things
we can't today???? (Btw. aren't they experimenting with tomatoes that can
stay fresh for a long time right now? I seem to recall something like that).

>>>True. It's a rough number, given as an approximation. 
>>
>>Yep. But I believe that the approximation is unreasonable.
> 
><grin> Then *change it*!! You don't like the "2000 Cr for overhead" number,
>while I don't like the "200 Cr for food" number... but it's hardly essential
>to the game either way. 

Thanks for the advice, but that solution has already occurred to me. ;-) I'm 
not arguing because I desperately need Marc Miller to changes the rules so 
that I can do so too. I'm perfectly capable of doing so on my own, thank you
very much. I'm arguing because I percieve this as an inconsistency in the 
rules (and also because I like a good argument ;-). I'm arguing for the same 
reason I'd argue against anyone who claimed that a passenger ship design with 
jump-6 engines and 2 passenger cabins makes sense on the regular jump-1 run 
between Sylea and Ordun. 

>I think arguments can be made both ways for each
>number, and you should pick whichever one suits you and your game best. 

I disagree, and actually, so do you. As you yourself say, Cr2000 makes good
sense, if the credit is worth what you percieve it to be, but in that case
food prices should be much higher. It would also makes sense if there were
something rare and valuable consumed on every trip, but I can't think of
anything plausible. Perhaps there are other explanations that could reconcile 
the two figures, but I can't figure one out. Until someone does, I'll 
maintain that a Cr2000 overhead is unreasonably big.

>>>My own personal games usually have a *very rough* approximation of 2 Cr =
>>>US$ 1, 

Whereas the prices quoted for food and lodging suggest that 1 Cr = US$ 1.5 to
US$ 2 is closer to the mark.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:07:26 +0100
Subject: Re: UPP for Vland?

>Hi,
>
>I am just about to start writing my Vilani Military Ranks article for
>issue #2 of Dark Star - and I realised that there's nothing in any of the
>material I have easy access to that gives the UPP for the Vilani
>Homeworld! I badly need this to make some final decisions on which way to
>go with the ranks and organisation (almost all the other research is done)
>... so, could anyone oblige by giving it to me? I know it was in one of
>the old Traveller or DGP pubs ("Vilani and Vargr"?). Any help would be
>appreciated!
>
>Phil McGregor
>--
>Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
>Have Game Designer Will Travel

It is in one of the older Traveller Digests which I haven't around at work.
Will come back with it shortly if I can remember it (maybe I should mail
myself as a reminder).


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 08:38:54 -0400
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Re: Life-Support Cost

David Blustein <dtb@nascrag.org> asked:
> It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power plant,
> and the wear and tear on the life support system would be covered by the
> ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit the food & water
> seems like it should cost less than Cr140. [...] Using a figure of Cr1000
> per week for the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?

Well, the official answer (since all the way back in Classic Traveller) is
that each occupied stateroom costs Cr1000 per week for "life support".
Referee are, of course, encouraged to change this figure if they want to
alter the economics of their campaigns.  However, the standard Cr 1000 seems
to work well with the "standard" costs for High and Middle passage.

Obviously, this would include food, drinks (of the non-water variety) and
water (for drinking and other purposes).   I tend to see Traveller starship
food, particularly for High Passengers, as Good Food - rather like the
offerings of railroad dining cars in the heydey of the passenger train - and
not pre-processed tasteless mush that typifies Airline Food in today's
deregulated environment.  As you point out, this is probably still only a
small part of the cost.

The fee should also include all of the ongoing non-maintainance costs of
operating the life support system.  This would include replenishing the
atmospheric gasses (no life-support system will be perfectly loss-free, and
there's probably a regulation to the effect that the reserve tanks must be
topped off before the ship can load passengers).  There are probably also
components that have to be replaced regularly - water and air filters,
chemical "scrubbers" containing catalysts or reactants that maintain the
atmosphere's proper composition, and other components designed for
replacement after every trip.

There's probably also a (large) fee for properly disposing of the
life-support system's waste products: used filters, catalysts, and
reactants, concentrated bodily wastes from the crew and passengers (this may
be considered a biohazard on many worlds), and just plain garbage.

There's probably even a charge for those little paper bands they put around
the 'freshers that say "sanitized for your protection".  ;-)

It's possible that some of the Cr 1000 covers the cost of mandatory
inspections of the life-support system.


OPINION: In my own campaigns, non-commercial starships (that is, ones that
don't carry paying passengers) can get by with paying considerably less for
life-support.  This is because they're exempt from all but the most basic
inspections (and the cost of complying with the regulations) that are
required for passenger-carrying ships.  They can also skimp on the food,
since there aren't any High Passengers to complain about the lack of fresh,
tasty food.  On one particular detached-duty scout, the only food aboard for
was the captain's huge pot of authentic Solomani-style chili that was kept
simmering in the galley for the entire week.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #590
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 591

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. joys of being a government...
         2. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
         3. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
         4. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
         5. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
         6. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         7. Re: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada
         8. Worldbuilding Resource
         9. Re: World Populations
        10. Notes for Traveller economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:49:10 -0500
Subject: joys of being a government...

"Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>writes:
>In T4, one of the sidebars indicates that while it is forbidden to bring 
>weapons into Imperial buildings, private businesses are prohibited from 
>barring weapons.  Did anyone else read that and say "Whoa!  what's up?!"
>What kind of justification have you developed for this interesting piece 
>of early Imperial legislation?  Does this serve some Imperial purpose?

The first bit, Imperial buildings barring weapons, is one of the joys of
being a government.  You get to set the rules.  Even in US states were
there are CCW laws, you still can not carry in government buildings.
I know of people who have, when reporting for jury duty for example, 
stop at the bailiff's desk, and check in their pistol.  They just pick
it up on the way out.

For the second part, that probably means there are still a surplus of  
lawyers in Imperial Year 0. :-)  If a private business is going to bar
legal carry, they are then responsible for your safety (Warning!  I am
not a lawyer, but I do follow these kinds of threads on USENET.  Your
kilometerage may vary).

Now keep in mind that Sylea is wired to the gills and the police can tap
every camera in the area (and everyone has one!) almost instantly.
Technology today can pinpoint shots fired to a few meters through the use
of remote microphones.  Add a few tech levels to this. 

Also remember that in order to legally carry a cP-03 into a private
building, you need an Imperial Weapons Permit.  As my local CLEO says,
"People who apply for permits, I don't worry about."  Also keep in mind a
'Real Life' model.
In the US, states that issue CCW permits only see about 2-4% of the
population actually apply for them.  So the odds are that, in any given
store with less than a hundred people in it, odds are that no one is
legally armed.  Well...ok,
there are probably dozens of Blur spray cans. :-)

You also left out the third part, no legal carry in private homes without
the owners permission.






- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

Amused to Death wrote:

>
>From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:18:23 +0000
>Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
>
>Rich Ostorero wrote:
>>         Semper Fidelis -- Official Motto of the Imperial Marines.
>>         (unless you Commonwealth guys have a niftier motto; the only one
>>I know is
>>         that of the British SAS -- 'Who Dares Wins')
>
>The unfortunately now defunct Canadian Airborne, Osons (_WE_ dare!)


        Actually, "Osons" is the first person plural imperative of "Oser",
so it actually translates as "Dare".

        And personally, basing myself on media reports, I think that that
regiment got what was coming to it...



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:53:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>
>On 10/21/96 at 09:52 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch
>Elliott) said:
>
>>        In yet others, characteristic is more important, but skill still
>>counts.  To borrow Ross Coburn's example, take a 5'3" <evil grin>
>>basketball player with middling skill playing basketball with somebody
>>that's 6'6" with no skill.  The short player has an edge until the tall
>>player gets a clue, at which point the short player is in trouble because
>>height and dexterity really, really count in basketball, and the skills
>>involved are fairly simple (dribbling and throwing balls, basically).
>
>Yeah, well up to a point.
>
>Do you know who Muggsy Boggs is?  The 5'3" pro basketball player? There
>*is* more to it than height.  There's also more to it than just dexterity.
>There are is also some psychological factors that aren't covered by any of
>Traveller's Attributes.
>
>Speaking as someone who has played basketball, poorly, for many years...the
>skills are NOT fairly simple!  ;->
>
>Eris
>- --


        OK then, let's replace basketball with caber tossing then.  Skills
are basically what a) staying sober long enough b) to pick up a telephone
pole and c) lob it gracefully :)?  So basically, someone with STR 9 CABER 4
would have an advantage over someone with STR 15, but once Mr. Mor Muscle
(that is a joke, and not a typo, incidentally) acquired CABER 1 or 2, the
playing field would be at least level...



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:53:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

Dave Golden wrote:

>
>        OK, how about this:
>
>        Tasks are listed in one of the following ways
>
>        Title: Difficulty, Skill, Characteristic
>        This is a "skill-primary" task. Asset = Skill + Characteristic/3
>(drop fractions)
>
>        Title: Difficulty, Characteristic, Skill
>        This is a "characteristic-primary" task. Asset= Skill +
>Characteristic/2
>
>        Title: Difficult, Characteristic
>        This is a "characteristic-only" task. Asset= Characteristic/2
>
>I'm using the divider of 2 for the last two, because otherwise the
>characteristic is too overwhelming. Impossible tasks are reserved for
>way-above-average characters (at least in the particular area). Someone with
>only average characteristic and/or skill shouldn't have a chance.
>
>        How does this strike you? And how would you handle the case of
>having two skills, both of which could contribute to a task? Sum the assets?


        This "feels" OK, but I'd wanna wait to see the numbers before
deciding on anything.  Doing it this way would mean that the
characteristic-primary tasks would be easier to succeed at, and
characteristic-only somewhat less so, at a given difficulty level, which
isn't immediately intuitive.  Maybe you could run them through your
spreadsheet at some point if you get the chance?

        As for equally useful skills, I'd say use the most obviously useful
one or average the two, rounding up to provide for synergy, or lower the
difficulty level by one for every three dots in an also-applicable skill.



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:53:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

Rich Ostorero wrote:

>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>>
>> Rich Ostorero wrote:
[snip]
>
>        I was thinking of a powerpak that charged during **normal**
>activities as well
>as during vigorous ones . . .


        Well, actually, I don't see why something like that wouldn't be
extremely useful, even if it wouldn't generate enough wattage to run a
FGMP: it could be used to run all sorts of personal electronic gear, and
perhaps building them into vacc suits could prolong their max wearability,
that sort of thing?


>
>        SillyHumorMode ON
>
>        Semper Fidelis -- Official Motto of the Imperial Marines.
>        (unless you Commonwealth guys have a niftier motto; the only one I
>know is
>        that of the British SAS -- 'Who Dares Wins')


        "Nemo me impune lacessit"?  A lot of the Highland units use it.  I
forget what it means exactly, but I thinkit means something along the lines
of "I leave no-one who messes with me un-raunched upon".  Or words to that
effect.


>        "Shut Up And Dance!" -- New Motto After Personal Pizeo PowerPaks
>are >introduced.
>        "Death Before Disco!" -- Another possible new Motto.
>        "If In Doubt, Empty The Clip" -- Murphy's Laws of Combat, TL6-9
>        "If In Doubt, Empty The Clip and Boogie!" -- Same, amended for TL10+
>        "Just keeps shooting and shooting and shooting . . . . now he's
>dancing, >and
>         dancing"
>
>        What's the difference between a marine in a tough fight and a
>Hiver making a
>        speech?
>        Not enough to matter!
>
>        SillyHumorMode OFF
>
>- --Rich "victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences" Ostorero
>stormhvn@inreach.com


        Hilarious..:)



------------------------------

From: Matt Lewis <matthew.lewis@queens.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:03:44 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Here's a suggestion: How about giving at least a small amount of data for
all systems in all sectors, but denoting in some way if a system can be
safely changed, without having to worry about future supplements giving
more info. This way, a ref can safely modify a system without having to
worry about his universe and the 'real' Traveller universe diverging. What
do you think?

- -----------------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:matthew.lewis@queens.ox.ac.uk
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0404/


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:21:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Signed Hardcovers Not Yet in Canada

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Daniel Poulin wrote:
> Amused to Death wrote:
> > Rob Prior wrote:
> > > I am, bluntly, pissed off about this.  You have had my money for over four
> > > months.  One of the books was for a friend who moved to Israel last week - I
> > > will now have to spring for international postage to give him his book.
<snip>
> > Yeah, maybe something other than taking a two week vacation during your start up
> > I did not order a hardcover because I had a feeling something like this would happen
<snip>
> I think this is time someone started telling us what is going on.

Hi Rob, Glenn (Amused to Death), and Daniel,

Just a thought: Have you tried calling IG?  When I am dissatisfied with 
the products or services I pay for, that is normally what /I/ do, and I 
usually get good results.  Perhaps it will work for you...?

Or, have you already gone that route?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Oct 1996 09:35:32 GMT
Subject: Worldbuilding Resource

The November issue of Scientific American has a pretty neat article on a wet
Mars.  If (like me) you're into creating really detailed worlds, you should
check it out.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Oct 1996 09:31:12 GMT
Subject: Re: World Populations

Toronto isn't such a hot place, but I've been living here for the last six
years.  Can't find as good a job elsewhere.  (I could probably find _a_ job
anywhere, but I'd like something with challenge and satisfaction - something
where I make a difference.)

Now, if anyone has any connections that could land me a teaching job
(computers/science/math/ESL/English) in a nicer location, send me a private
note and we can discuss your Swiss bank account :-)

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:04:47 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Notes for Traveller economics

The recent discussion of economic problems in Traveller made me decide to
post what I've got so far in my attempt to work out a consistent set of
economic rules for Traveller. I spent last night collating all my notes.
Although the result is quite long (I hope not too long for you), they are
very far from complete, but I figure that if I wait until I'm completely
satisfied with them, I'll never get them posted!

Note that this is the way I think things ought to be in Traveller (and the
things are in _my_ Traveller universe), not what I think the rules say now.
If you don't agree with me, fine; you're free to say so. But I'd much rather
hear about any _internal_ inconsistencies you spot. 

Anyway, here we go:



                        Basic economics for Traveller
                        =============================

Prices are expressed in local "credits". 1 credit (Cr) is one hour's pay for 
an unskilled worker regardless of what the local coinage is called. Imperial 
currency is called "Credits, Imperial" (Crimp) and can be (often is) worth
more than local credits since these depends on the economic strength of the
individual world. See _Trillion Credit Squadron_ page 32 about exchange rates. 
Crimps are worth the same as the credits of a world with a Class A starport 
and the maximum TL of the Imperium  --  12 in the Year 0, 15 in 1105, etc.

Note: The credits are what is left over after taxes and after accounting for
dependents. If taxes are 50% then an unskilled worker would actually be paid
2 credits per hour. If the average earner supports 3 dependents he would get
4 credits (after taxes) and so on.


INCOME

Income usually depends on how respected an occupation is in the local 
society. Decide what social standing most practitioners of an occupation 
would have. The average salary for a competent, fully qualified member of 
that occupation can then be determined from the tabel below. Remember to 
adjust for taxes and usual number of dependents.

   SS     Hour     Day       Month     Year
    1     0,9        9        225      2700
    2     1,2       12        300      3600
    3     1,6       16        400      4800
    4     2,0       20        500      6000
    5     2,4       24        600      7200
    6     2,9       29        725      8700
    7     3,4       34        850     10200
    8     4,0       40       1000     12000
    9     4,6       46       1150     13800

Incomes for social standings 10+ are highly individualistic and more or less
impossible to give general rules for.
 
Also note that though the correlation between social standing and income is
high, it is not 1. Some societies may pay well for having jobs considered
socially demeaning performed. Some religious figures may be poorly paid yet
highly respected, etc. Other considerations may also play a part. In pre-
industrial societies mercenaries are for example usually a lot more expensive 
than regular soldiers before and during campaign season, but can often be 
hired for little more than room and board during winter.


LIVING EXPENSES

Inn or hotel accomodations        day/week
  Common room                      2 / 10
  Bad room                         4 / 20
  Medium room                      8 / 40
  Good room                        2 /100

Restaurant food               poor/medium/good
  Breakfast                     1 /   2  / 3
  Lunch                         2 /   3  / 4
  Dinner                        3 /   6  /15
  Banquet                       - /  20  /60
  Full board/per day            5 /  10  /20
Local booze      
  Low alcohol, mug             0.5/   1  /1.5
  Medium alcohol, glass        0.5/   1  / 2
  High alcohol, shot           0.5/   1  / 2
Imported booze
  Medium alcohol, glass         - /   3  /7.5
  High alcohol, shot            - /   3  / 7 


LONG-TERM SUBSISTENCE (per month)

  Starvation level: Minimum food, Cr60. Dismal lodging, Cr60. Minimum 
necessities, Cr30.
  Subsistence level: Reasonable food, Cr150. Acceptable lodging, Cr150. 
Bare necessities, Cr150.
  Ordinary level: Good food, Cr200. Good lodging, Cr200. Basic necessities,
Cr200.
  Good living: Fine food, Cr400. Fine lodging, Cr400. Necesseties and 
comforts, Cr400.
  High living: Luxury food, Cr600. Luxury lodging, Cr600+. Necessities and
luxuries, Cr600+.

As a rule of thumb it can be assumed that a person can just keep up a life-
style that fits his social status for SS+2 * 50 credits per month (Ie. a 
person with SS 1 needs Cr150, one with S 2 needs Cr200, etc. Of these money
2/3rds goes to food and lodging and the rest to other stuff (clothes and 
other necessities and comforts). It is customary to use more if one can
afford it. The average upkeep for a given SS is roughly SS*10% more than 
the minimum.

Note that SS 0 is not included in this system since SS 0 are slaves and don't
pay for their own upkeep (also remember that slavery is forbidden in the
Imperium).


SS       Upkeep
     Minimum  Average
 1     150      175 
 2     200      250
 3     250      325 
 4     300      425 
 5     350      525 
 6     400      650
 7     450      775 
 8     500      900
 9     550     1050 
10     600     1200  

Above SS 10 upkeep is highly individualistic and difficult to generalize
about.

While travelling upkeep is +25% in rural areas, +50% in urban areas and
+100% in artificial environments (space stations, etc.)

Clothes

Clothes are usually accounted for in the basic living expenses, but if a 
character needs to acquire clothes in unusual circumstances (like as part 
of a disguise or to replace a ruined set) here are some prices:

Rags                   20
Rough/well used        40
Common/a little used   60
Good                  200
Fine                  600
Elegant               800
Extravagant          1000

Note: Prices for clothes (especially finery) can easily vary by from -20 to 
+50% depending on how many or how few frills are traditional in the local 
culture.

                       SALARIES  --  Imperial culture
                       ==============================      
                             Monthly pay scales

There are no taxes on Imperial salaries. The average person supports one
dependent (Less for lower ranks, more for higher ranks).

Food and lodging is provided for enlisted personel. Crimp200/month is 
deducted from their pay for this (So an E1 would be paid Crimp100 each 
month). When serving planetside, officers are expected to pay for their food 
and lodging. When serving aboard a ship or in the field, officers get free 
food and lodging and can save a substantial amount of their pay. Officers 
serving on backwater planets can also save quite a lot, since they are paid 
in Crimp but pay their expenses in local currency. Most officers, however, 
blow the money thus saved on gourmet items and useless souvenirs from the 
worlds they visit.

Officers are expected to maintain a living standard no less than that 
appropiate for SS 8. O1s can just manage that with a few credits left over. 
O2s still have to shrimp a bit, but have no real problems. O3s can manage it
comfortably, unless they are married to a spouse who does not have a job of 
his or her own, in which case they can just manage it, but only just. O4s 
and O5s are better able to manage supporting a spouse and for O6s and above 
there are no hardships involved. Accordingly O1s and O2s are almost never 
married, O3s seldom married, O4s and O5s increasingly often married and O6s 
and above are almost expected to be married.

Pensions are 20% of final pay for each term more than four served up to a 
maximum of 100%. Imperial pensions are not subject to local income taxes. 

Imperial service, Year 1105:

Rank    Pay  Navy                 Army/Marines          Civil Service      

E1      300  Groundling           Private               Jr. Trainee
E2      350  Ordinary spaceman    Lance Corporal        Sr. Trainee
E3      400  Able spaceman        Corporal              Jr. Clerk
E4      450  Petty Officer/3rd    Lance Sergeant        Clerk/4th
E5      500  PO/2nd               Sergeant              Clerk/3rd
E6      550  PO/1st               Gunnery Sergeant      Clerk/2nd
E7      600  Chief PO             Leading Sergeant      Clerk/1st
E8      650  Senior CPO           First Sergeant        Sr. Clerk
E9      700  Master CPO           Sergeant Major        Chief Clerk

O0      550  Midshipman           Cadet                 -
O1      600  Ensign               Second Lieutenant     Asst. Inspector
O2      800  Sublieutenant        First Lieutenant      Inspector
O3     1100  Lieutenant           Captain               Asst. Administrator
O4     1400  Lt. Commander        Major/Force Cmdr.     Administrator
O5     1700  Commander            Lieutenant Colonel    Asst. Commisioner
O6     2000  Captain              Colonel               Commisioner
O7     2400  Commodore            Brigadier General     Deputy Governor
O8     2800  Rear Admiral*        Major General         Governor
O9     3200  Vice Admiral*        Lieutenant General    Governor General
O10    3600  Admiral*             General               Undersecretary       
O11    4000  Fleet Admiral*       Marshal               Secretary
O12    4500  Force Admiral*       -                     -
O13    5000  High Admiral*        -                     -
O14    6000  Grand Admiral*       -                     -

* Rear Admirals, Vice Admirals and Admirals are in charge of squadrons of
increasing strength. Fleet Admirals are in charge of (surprise!) fleets,
usually all squadrons stationed in one star system. Force Admirals are in
charge of what I call Fleet/Army forces, which is the same as the numbered 
fleets in _Rebellion_. High Admirals are in charge of sector forces and of 
what I call armadas, which is the same as the named fleets in _Rebellion_. 
Grand Admirals are in (on?) the Imperial admiralty.

In Year 0 Grand Admiral would be O12 and there would be no O13 and O14.

Rank    Pay  Diplomats            Justice agent 

	No enlisted ranks or the equivalent.

O1      600  3rd Secretary        Deputy Agent/3rd   
O2      800  2nd Secretary        Deputy Agent/2nd
O3     1100  1st Secretary        Deputy Agent/1st
O4     1400  3rd Attache          Agent/3rd*           (Low-pop planet)
O5     1700  2nd Attache          Agent/2nd*           (Medium-pop planet)
O6     2000  1st Attache          Agent/1st*           (High-pop planet)
O7     2400  Vice Consul          Vice Director*      
O8     2800  Consul               Director*           
O9     3200  Consul General       Director General*
O10    3600  Envoy                -
O11    4000  Minister             Special Agent**        
O12    4500  Ambassador           -
O13    5000  High Ambassador      Special Investigator** 
O14    6000  Grand Ambassador     -

* There is a Ministry of Justice agent on most worlds in the Imperium except
those with the very lowest populations; the number of deputy agents varies 
a lot with the importance of the world. There are also a number of 'floating'
agents. A vice-director is in charge of all agents in a subsector; a director 
is in charge of all agents in a sector; and the Director-General is in charge 
of all agents Imperium-wide.

** A Special Agent reports directly to the Minister of Justice. A Special 
Investigator holds an Imperial Warrant and reports directly to the Emperor.

In Year 0 there would be no High or Grand Ambassadors and MoJ special agents
and investigators would be O10 and O11 respectively.
                                 
Rank    Pay  Wet Navy           Aviation              Scouts (Examples)***

E1      300  Landsman           Airman Recruit        Apprentice
E2      350  Ordinary seaman    Airman                Technician
E3      400  Able seaman        Airman 1st Class      Specialist
E4      450  Petty Officer/3rd  Sergeant              Asst. Team Ldr
E5      500  PO/2nd             Staff Sergeant        Team Leader
E6      550  PO/1st             Technical Sergeant    Senior Team Ldr
E7      600  Chief PO           Master Sergeant              -
E8      650  Senior CPO         Senior Master Sgt.           -
E9      700  Master CPO         Chief Master Sgt.            -

O0      550  Midshipman         Air Cadet                    -
O1      600  Ensign             Pilot Officer         Asst. Group Ldr.
O2      800  Sublieutenant      Flying Officer        Group Leader
O3     1100  Lieutenant         Flight Lieutenant     Senior Group Ldr.
O4     1400  Lt. Commander      Squadron Leader       Asst. Field Cmdr.
O5     1700  Commander          Wing Commander        Field Commander
O6     2000  Captain            Group Captain         Sr. Field Cmdr.
O7     2400  Commodore          Air Commodore         Survey Chief
O8     2800  Rear Admiral       Air Vice Marshal      Deputy Base Cmdr.
O9     3200  Vice Admiral       Air Marshal           Base Commander
O10    3600  Admiral            Air Chief Marshal     Sector Cmdr.
O11    4000  AISNC*             MIAC**                Branch Director
O12    4500  -                  -                     Director
O13    5000  -                  -                     -
O14    6000  -                  -                     -

* Admiral of the Imperial Surface Navy Corps
** Marshal of the Imperial Air Corps

*** Scouts do not have ranks but they do have pay scales. Examples given are
typical, but varies a lot in the field. Positions on ships are similar to
navy ships of the same size. On ceremonial occasions scouts recieve the
same courtsies that officers and men of the other Imperial services with
the same pay scale get.

In Year 0 the Scout Director would be O10.

Private service:

Rank   Pay*  Merchant Navy

R1      200  Trainee spaceman
R2      250  Ordinary spaceman
R3      300  Able spaceman
R4      350  3rd <Specialist>**
R5      400  2nd <Specialist>**
R6      450  <Specialist>'s Mate**
R7      500  <Specialist>**
R8      550  Master <Specialist>**
R9      600  -

O0      600  Apprentice
O1      800  4th Officer
O2     1000  3rd Officer
O3     1200  2nd Officer
O4     1500  1st Officer
O5     2000  Captain
O6     2500  Senior Captain
O7     3000  Line Commodore


* Salaries are in addition to very good food and (of course) lodging.

**The appropiate title is substituted for <Specialist> ie. 3rd Engineer, 2nd 
Gunner, Pilot's Mate, Electrician, Master Mechanic. The leader of each 
department is called Chief <Specialist> regardless of his actual rank.


                             Starship economics
                             ==================

Life support: Each passenger and crew aboard a starship involves an overhead
cost of Cr300 per person per 10-day period. 2/3rd of this pays for very good 
food; Free Traders may skimp on this, but it will affect crew morale and ship 
reputation. The remaining Cr100 goes to pay for other supplies. Passengers 
usually spend one period (9-10 days) aboard a ship making a jump and thus
only account for 2 periods per month. Passengers who stay on board for the
next jump and any crew naturally account for three full periods per months. 

Regular passenger ships charge double passage for jumps of two parsecs,
triple passage for jumps of three parsecs, etc. Free Traders charge
whatever they can get away with: Less than full charge if there are rival
starships in port, more if they are the only ones present. Putting two
passengers in one stateroom is a popular way of increasing revenue.

By Imperial law any ship carrying passengers is required to accept a Middle 
or High Passage ticket as full payment for a one-parsec jump. Captains of
registered ships can cash such tickets at full value. Since people seldomly
get luxury liner treatment on tramp steamers, most people travelling by
Free Trader negotiate a cash price and save their tickets for the regular 
ships.

Crew salaries: Salaries are paid according to the rank a crew member holds.
Skill levels do not affect salaries except insofar they allow a character
to get a better job. Crew on Free Traders who do not own a share in the
profit usually expect a salary of Crimp 800-1000 with a Captain getting 
ca. 25% more.

                             Planetary economies
                             ===================

The average citizen earns Cr10,000 per year and pays 25% taxes.

How much of this that goes to the (peacetime) naval budget depends on how
vulnerable they feel. Planets with high populations use proportionally less
(though still more in absolute terms) than planets with lower populations.
Planets with strong allies may use less than they would otherwise have done.
Planets near borders may use more.

At population level 8 the naval budget equals Cr500 per citizen. At level
9 this is halved and halved again at level 10. At population level 7 and
below the budget is doubled (but such planets are usually part of a larger 
political unit). Referees who don't mind the math should use a logaritmic
scale to determine the budget of planets with population multipliers larger
than one.

A portion of the naval budget of any planet that is part of an interstellar 
state goes to the navy of that state. The portion is equivalent to 30% of
the budget of the planet with the largest population. The remaining part 
can be used on system defenses. Worlds that feel really secure may use less
on system defenses, but not less, proportionally, than their big associate.

Example 1: Big World with 1 billion citizens is associated with Medium World 
with 100 million citizens. The naval budget of Big World is Cr250 per 
citizen, or MCr250,000. 30% of this (Cr75 per citizen) goes to the state
navy and the rest to Big World's system defenses. The naval budget of
Medium World is Cr500 per citizen, or MCr 50,000. Of this Cr75 per citizen
goes to the state navy and the rest to Medium World's system defenses.
            
Total contribution      State navy  System defenses
Big World                MCr75,000    MCr175,000      
Medium World              MCr7,500     MCr42,500

If Medium World felt really secure it could use as little as MCr17,500 on 
system defenses (The money saved would go to other branches of the
government).


Example 2: A federation of 10 worlds with 100 million citizens each. Each
world has a naval budget of Cr500 per citizen. The budget for the Federation
navy is MCr150,000 and each planet has system defenses for MCr35,000. 

Note that these figures apply to peacetime navies. If Big World lies
adjacent to The Federation and if relationships are strained, then Big
World may well have a larger naval budget.

All the above figures are subject to the government modifiers and the
exchange rates in _Trillion Credit Squadron_.

If navies are still too big to allow those unpatrolled systems dear to
Referees and pirates alike, a MISS factor may be applied. MISS stands
for Military Inefficiency Spending Syndrome and refers to the (possibly
mythical) tendency of military organisations to pay more than private
individuals for anything they buy. Simply multiply the cost of all navy
ships by some factor from 1.1 to whatever you feel is reasonable. Note
that the MISS factor does not have to be the same for different navies.
I haven't actually made up any tables for this, but I would say that the
larger the navy, the larger the MISS factor can reasonably be.


                                Merchant navy
                                =============

The merchant navy of a large interstellar economy is equal to Cr10,000 per
citizen, modified up and down in the same way that the naval budget is.
(Ie. Cr5000 per citizen for a pop 9 planet, Cr2500 per citizen for a pop
10 planet, etc.). (Not for the same reason; large economies just doesn't
generate proportionally as much trade; that the figure scales the same way
is pure coincidence (And, no, I have no reason to belive that is is actually
the case; the whole bit was originally based on a rule from a Fantasy 
Campaign rulebook!)).

99% of the merchant navy are bulk carriers. Huge cargo ships plying back and
forth between adjacent worlds carrying bulk cargoes that has been contracted
for years in advance. The remaining 1% makes up the so-called speculative
trade: ships that don't make the same jump back and forth from the day they
are launched to the day they are scrapped.

Note that every ship we've ever seen described in any Traveller publication 
from 100 T detatched Scouts to 3000 T Tukera freighters is part of this 1%.



Well, that's it so far. I hope some of you will find it useful. 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

















------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #591
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 592

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. [Traveller Answer] Re: Missile sizes
         2. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         3. Re: UPP for Vland?
         4. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww Thanks Everyone :-)) 
         5. [Traveller Answer] Re: Thrust Plates
         6. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
         7. Re: Check your guns at the door, please
         8. Dark Star/Alien Star
         9. Armor for different systems
        10. Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))
        11. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        12. Re: Check your guns at the door, please
        13. Population distributions
        14. Re: Imperial Establishing Document
        15. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
        16. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        17. Traveller Hardcovers Revisited
        18. 1st T4 Game
        19. Compatibility to Megatraveller
        20. Re: UPP for Vland?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 10:42:29 -0400
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Re: Missile sizes

Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com> asked:
> I was trying to do a T4 design and ran into a small problem with missiles.
> How much volume do reloads take up. Not much point to a turret that shoots
> two missiles and then is so much dead weight.

Missiles are 7 cubic meters (that's a half a displacement ton) each, and
could be carried as cargo (in the cargo hold) or in a special magazine
designated for that purpose.

Currently, the only way to reload turret missiles is by hand; it takes about
an hour for one person to bring one up from storage and wrestle it into
place (missiles mass several metric tons apiece).  The referee may allow
slightly shorter reload time if more than one character is assisting.

OPINION: I also feel that there should be a way to automatically reload
missile turrets, but there are (currently) no official rules for it.  Within
your campaign, you may want to declare that automatic reloaders are available.
As a suggestion, each reloader might cost MCr 0.1 and occupy two displacement
tons, (plus twice the volume of the reload missiles carried).  Only one reloader
is allowed per turret or two per barbette, and each reloader can reload a single
missile per turn.  The turret or barbette may not fire while it is being reloaded.

> Also why only TL8 missiles and turrets? What happened to TL9,10,11 & 12?

The launchers themselves don't change much after TL-8 or so; not
enough to have a different turret design (in other words, a TL-12 missile
launcher costs and weighs about the same as a TL-8 one).

The missiles DO very by TL, but the basic space combat system isn't detailed
enough to make the differences very aparrent.  If things go as planned, by
the time there is a more-detailed official combat system, there will be more
detailed missiles to go with it.

OPINION: If you have a lot of high-tech worlds in your campaign, you may
want to give missiles at TL-13 or higher one of the following advantages: either
they move two range bands per turn instead of one, OR they do 1 extra point of
damage when they hit.  Missiles at TL-16 or higher would have both
advantages.

Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:42:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

On 21 Oct 96 at 23:30, Amused to Death spewed:

> I think it is a bunch of crap leaving huge sections blank
> 
> Sounds like they wanna sell us a game and not do any background
> work.

Naw, sounds to me like they want to leave some of the background 
detailing to individual referees.  I like the idea.  And how does 
writing a milieu 0 book qualify as not doing any background work.

For that matter, how does having a PC or Mac running in endless 
cycles of random number generating QUALIFY as doing background work.

If this is all the depth that the Don't Leave it Blank crowd uses in 
designing worlds/sectors/subsectors, I don't want to play in their 
games...

> I don't know if the "leave it blank" players have nothing better to
> do than roll sectors, but I do (I enjoy it, but I do not want to
> make a career out of generating planets, just adventures)

There's nothing to it.  There are about a dozen sector generators out 
there for just about every platform around.  Or you can write your 
own, as I did when I owned a Trash 80, C-64, and an Amiga.  Heck, I 
can generate a sector in about 2 minutes.

> I use the UPP to generate adventures, not the other way round

Obviously its a basis for the subsequent design of the world, but I 
don't want a book that just spews out tremendous volumes of random 
number generator nonsense.

1 other thought about the camp wanting a book including UWP's for 50 sectors.  
All told, there have not been 50 sectors generated for the game at 
this point which have been published.  DGP did 35, but they 
overlapped with what GDW put out.  Imagine the volume in terms of 
number of pages needed to list the UWP's and bits of Library data on 
each sector.  Even looking at the way that DGP did it with the 
sectors they included in various issues of TD & MTJ, with a typesize 
that was nearly unreadable, You'd be looking at a MINIMUM of 5-6 
pages.  Multiply that by 50, and you've got a book of about 300 
pages, which'd retail for about $40, and sit on store shelves for 
eternity.  Oh, and if you thought the T4 book was late, just wait 
until such a beast didn't get out until about Summer of '97.

Stu
Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
Traveller referee since 1978, Official USENet 
spokesperson for Imperium Games
- ---------------------------------------------------
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 
- -Thomas Jefferson

------------------------------

From: Dark Galahad <maldeus@wam.umd.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:48:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: UPP for Vland?

According to the Vilani and Vargr sourcebook the UWP for Vland is
A967A9A-F.  Hope that helps.

Bill

Ned Dragon
- --((UDIC))--

I fought the world
I was sure that I would win
But the world fought back
and made me pay for my sins
- ----Social Distortion


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:55:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww Thanks Everyone :-)) 

        "Nemo me impune lacessit"?  A lot of the Highland units use it.  I
  forget what it means exactly, but I thinkit means something along the lines
  of "I leave no-one who messes with me un-raunched upon".  Or words to that
  effect.

Now imagine the far future, in which our English is an extinct language 
known only through scholarship, with the same dignified flavor we now 
feel in Latin.  "I leave no-one who messes with me un-raunched upon"
could be the literal, letter-for-letter motto of some ancient military 
unit, the exact translation unknown to the Galanglic-speaking majority.
<g>

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 11:03:10 -0400
Subject: [Traveller Answer] Re: Thrust Plates

David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> asked:
> Derek Wildstar wrote:
> > If you've misjumped into the middle of nowhere, and have to figure out how
> > to make six months worth of fuel last a few decades, then it might be
> > important.
> 
> If the above happened to a ship with thruster plates (the technology of
> which is gravity-based), how could it manuever worth a darn outside a
> star's gravitational influence?

You're right, it can't.  Beyond a certain distance from the star, thrust-plate
efficency drops off drastically.  In such a case, the ship would have to send
a radio (maser) or laser message to a nearby inhabited star system, and have
everyone go into low berths, hoping that the distress message will be
recieved and acted on before the power fails.

I did say, in my comment about surviving a misjump, that the ship needed
functional maneuver drives.  I should have added that thrust-plate
drives aren't considered functional that far into deep space.  Oops.

The Thrust-plate maneuver drive has a "step" function - at a certain point,
the effective thrust drops off suddenly.  The point is related to the star's
gravity field; in the Earth's solar system, this point is somewhere near the
orbit of Pluto.   The exact point is defined by a gravity gradient; as a
rule of thumb (and to avoid complicated calculations), the drop-off point is
halfway between the outermost possible orbit for a given star and the next
closer orbit - if a star has the maximum possible number of planets, the
outermost one is outside the limit, and the rest are inside.

Guy "wildstar" Garnett
Traveller Answer Team

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:17:01 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

 
> >An AU is an Astronomical Unit, the mean distance between the Earth and the
> >Sun (or about 150 million km).  A communicator with a 1000AU range can
> >reliably communicate with any appropriate reciever anywhere within the same
> >star system.  This exceeds the longest space combat range by a large amount.
> 
> Far companion stars are separated by 1T6 x 1000 AU, are there comm units
> that can communicate this far? (Of course there are)

Like all other ranges provided, this is the Short Range.  So...

Short	Medium	Long	Extreme
1000AU	2000AU	4000AU	8000AU
 
The tasks just get harder (signal strength goes down, it's harder to
beam the signal at the target since you might not know exactly where
they are at that range, etc.)

- -Merrick
 

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:20:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please

 
> >What kind of justification have you developed for this interesting piece
> >of early Imperial legislation?  Does this serve some Imperial purpose?
> 
> It simply proves that Marc & friends are American ie the only inalienable
> right a human has is the right to bear arms.

I think it might have been a mistake, but besides that, the second
amendment is the last check in a series of checks and balances on
government.  The idea is that if the electorate puts a despot in
power, they control the army (in colonial times, the army was all
able bodied men carrying their own rifles) since the people *are*
the army.

Sorry to go off on a thread that will no doubt go on and on at this
point, but I couldn't help it.  Reply directly to me if you need to
and take it off the list.

- -Merrick
merrick@rt66.com

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:23:41 -0500
Subject: Dark Star/Alien Star

Speaking of Dark Star (and could someone please post how we can get this?)...

Does anybody remember a British 'zine from the early 80's called Alien Star?

John K.



********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************




------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:22:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Armor for different systems

Hi Derek Wildstar,

Thanks for your very informative post on converting armor and
penetration from QSDS to T4 personal combat.

But I would like to ask on behalf of the Striker and High Guard
holdouts on the list how to convert these armor values too.

Actually, if you could just tell us how to convert from T4
armor/penetration to the equivalent centimeters of steel plate, we could
do the rest ourselves. I'd be happy to publish the results here (or
anywhere else).

Thanks in advance.

- -Rob



------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:19:18 -0700
Subject: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww  Thanks Everyone :-))

>>         Semper Fidelis -- Official Motto of the Imperial Marines.
>>         (unless you Commonwealth guys have a niftier motto; the only one
>>I know is
>>         that of the British SAS -- 'Who Dares Wins')
>
>The unfortunately now defunct Canadian Airborne, Osons (_WE_ dare!)
I believe that a unoffical motto of the Navy SEALs is "The only easy day was yesterday." 

Matt

------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:40:50 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> Douglas McCorison wrote:
> > With the base T4 system, the players get a big jump when they go
> > from 0 to 1 in a skill.  Are you proposing cutting the "Default"
> > level to attribute/4?  I think that this might be a bit stiff.
> 
> I agree, and I'm not proposing that.  I wanted to keep changes to the T4 system
> minimal.  I say that default skills still operate at half attribute.  I checked all
> combinations, and this still keeps the default target number well below those that
> are skilled.

Here I don't agree with you.  The basis for my disagreement is the experience point 
cost.  Look at this:

For an Attribute value of 8:
						You	T4	Me
	Default Skill Level Tareget Number:	4	4	3
		+ 2 Experience points
	Skill Level 1 Target Number:		6	9	6
		+ 1.16 Experience points	
	Skill Level 2 Target Number:		8	10	8
		+ 1.33 Experience Points	
	Skill Level 3 Target Number:		10	11	10
etc...

So for those two experience points to get skill level 1, the player gets very
little value.

Thoughts???

douglas

------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:52:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> In T4, one of the sidebars indicates that while it is forbidden to bring
> weapons into Imperial buildings, private businesses are prohibited from
> barring weapons.  Did anyone else read that and say "Whoa!  what's up?!"
> 
> What kind of justification have you developed for this interesting piece
> of early Imperial legislation?  Does this serve some Imperial purpose?

Now that you mention it I did sort of skip this item.  I guess that if
I wanted to run a bar, >I< at least would make it a private club with 
memberships and etc. or whatever is necessary to make it not a "private
business".  I get the picture of a typical PC wandering around with a
fully loaded automatic rifle (perhaps not without justification, assas-
sination attempts make one nervous) wandering into the local branch of
the First Interstellar Bank.  What's the security guard going to do?

And how does this jibe with Law Level?  What if all weapons are banned?
But by Imperial Law one must allow them into one's business?????  I
don't get it.  

Contemplating carrying a PGMP in a Law Level 14 world.....

Douglas

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:08:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Population distributions

Hi.

Hans Rancke wrote:

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:27:15 +0200 (METDST)
>Subject: World populations

>Robert Flammang writes:
>>
>>Every once in a while, the topic of world population distributions
>>comes up on this list, usually accompanied by the assertion that
>>pleasant worlds are bound to be more populous than unpleasant worlds.

>Not quite true. I don't have a problem with SOME unpleasant worlds having a 
>larger population than SOME pleasant worlds. What I object to is all worlds, 
>regardless of habitability, having the exact same population distribution. 
>3% of them have 0-9 people, 7% of them have 10-99 people, etc.
 
Actually, I wasn't addressing you in particular Hans. But you raised
some very good points in your reply. I can't address them all today, so
I'll just cut to the crux (as I see it):

>>In fact, pleasure is rarely the first factor in determining where people
>>live. The primary factors are usually economic and social.

>But that's exactly my point. If you have the choice of setting up a new
>colony on a world where you can breathe the air and grow your own food
>and one where you need expensive protection from the environment, which
>one would you choose?

I guess that I've always viewed the Trav universe as a place where
technology is pervasive enough that environmental impact on the
economy will be (or at least can be) minimal. YMMV.

Obviously, here on earth, this is not yet the case; Antarctica has a
very small population, as you point out. And for reasons of future
history it may never be the case. But given the inherent difficulties
of settling any planet, future colonists may not be so picky if they
have enough technology to insure a comfortable life anywhere.

[...]
>My assumptions may or may not be faulty, but Traveller's assumptions 
>definitely are. Any assumptions that makes the population distributions on 
>Terran-norm worlds EXACTLY the same as on worlds with insidious atmospheres 
>are faulty.

Point well taken. But this is a problem without an easy solution
(short of computer generated Monte Carlo calculations of human
migrations through jump space) If you want to minimize faulty
assumptions, you could have quite a bit of work cut out for you.

If you want a simple system involving the rolling of two dice a few
times, I'd say the one we've got is pretty good. Obviously, it could
be improved a little bit by sacrificing a little simplicity. 

Putting in simple "-1", "+1" type modifiers to the population would not
be acceptable in my view, since they would /completely/ eliminate
certain combinations of population and physical characteristics of the
UWP.

But you could do things this way:

1) Roll up the physical part of the UWP first.

2) Fit your new world into one of three categories: Pleasant, Average,
or Unpleasant.

3) Roll for the population. If the world is pleasant, roll three
dice and throw out the lowest one. Use the remaining two dice (-2)
to work out the population as normal. If the world is unpleasant,
roll three dice and throw out the /highest/ one, then continue as
normal. If two or more dice compete for the highest/lowest value,
then it doesn't matter which of them you throw out.

This allows a full diversity of UWP's, but weights some more than
others.

You could make this system more complicated by making more categories
("Paradise" or "Hell-hole") and rolling four dice, and so on.

Or you could forget dice and use a complicated Monte Carlo algorithm
to make something really detailed. You'd have to be a pretty dedicated
hobbyist to go this route.

These are just a few of my random thoughts. You've obviously given this
matter more attention than I have. Any comments?

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:41:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Imperial Establishing Document

>        Actually, I think that Glenn M. Goffin posted a draft IED as well.
>Did this one get missed?

The ones on my Web page were received from Joe Walsh, who got them from
someone else.  Actually, if anyone has any others, or the original post Marc
sent could they forward them to me?

Thanks

_______________________________Peter John Miller
The Great AD&D Module Trade\Auction is running until November 21st 1996.
Check out http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/auction.htm or e-mail me for a list
of currrent items available!
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:48:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

>As I understand it, IG doesn't have much control over where T4 books end 
>up.  They contact distributors, and try to get them to order.  Then, 
>presumably, those distributors who decide to carry T4 tell their customers 
>(store owners) about the books.  Some store owners choose to order them, 
>some do not.

My store owners definitely don't...even after me telling them I've talked
with people who have it, they still are convinced that GDW went under, so
there is no new Traveller :(

>So, if a given store doesn't have T4, it may be because the owner deals 
>through a distributor who doesn't carry T4 (and you can believe that's 
>not because IG doesn't want them to![G]), or it is because the store 
>owner doesn't want to carry Traveller (for whatever reason).

I see.

>My personal theory is that there will be good distribution of Traveller 
>once there is a traveller "line" of products - when Starships, CSC, 
>Aliens, M0, and First Survey are published.  Then, there will be plenty 
>of product to fill shelves, there will be plenty to advertise about, etc. 

I hope so, until then it'll be mail order for me :)

Thanks

_______________________________Peter John Miller
The Great AD&D Module Trade\Auction is running until November 21st 1996.
Check out http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/auction.htm or e-mail me for a list
of currrent items available!
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:52:20 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

David Blustein wrote:
> It just seems a little odd to me at first glance that zero skill
> with a high stat has exactly the same chance of succeeding at a
> task as high skill with the lowest possible stat.

Unless you use a system with real number probabilities or weigh
skill or attribute a really large amount more, this is going to 
happen.

> IIRC, the original discussion began when someone noticed that it
> seemed like succeeding at "impossible" tasks appeared to be easier
> than one might otherwise expect. The other point that seemed to come
> up a lot, was the fact that high stat/low skill could easily equal
> low stat/high skill and that seemed odd, too.

As the originator of the Dex 10 + Pilot 1 versus Dex 4 + Pilot 6 
example, I believe you're referring to me.  What I objected to, was
NOT the chances being equal.  In fact the Target Numbers (T#) are
different (11 versus 10) in my example.  I just didn't believe that
a fast novice (10+1) could outfly a slower experienced pilot (4+6).
I had no problem with some people having the same target number, 
it's just WHO would have the same target number that I wanted to 
adjust.

It's always good to discuss these things, so let's keep talking.

Douglas

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:56:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Traveller Hardcovers Revisited

Hi,

I just called IG and asked specifically whether the _signed_ hardbacks 
had all been shipped.  The answer is, quite simply, no.  There are some 
remaining hardbacks to be shipped, and they will be shipped out (along 
with the rest of the hardbacks) by October 25.

So, if you have not received your signed hardback copy of T4, you can 
probably stop worrying about it being lost in the mail. :)

As always, if you have concerns about your specific order, then please 
direct them to the folks at IG (1-414-249-9430), since they're the ones 
who will be able to address your concerns.


Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "M. Harelick" <matth@tull.cuy.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:04:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 1st T4 Game

Hi: 

I will be running my first T4 game next week. I have run both 
Traveller and classic Traveller in the past. We have generated characters
for the party, an so I have some comments on the character generation
system. 

The good parts

I like the way they have made a hybrid of the advanced character 
generation system and the classic traveller system. 

Starting from college and going through to retirement seems very
easy, with less complicated tables. 

The bad parts.

1. I think that the way to generate  a 
homeworld allows players to generate home woworlds that 
may not exist. This is a real hassle when trying to figure out where
a player is from. I am going to build a work-around for this, placing
actual worlds to be born on in its place. 

2. When a player is injured out of or leaves a service he can attempt
to re-enter another one. There is no apparent rules that say if 
a person is injured out of the Army that he can't join the Marines. 
I think that there would be a problem since the Marines probably has 
more physical requirements than the Army. Our temporary way 
out of this is to say that injury could also mean getting arrested, 
fired, or in some cases an injury that is relatively minor but 
violates something in the Imperial Bureacracy. 

Anyway, I am thinking of building some kind of injury table, that 
contains bonuses/penalties for different types of injuries when tryihg
to join another service. 

3. The 3D damage rule. I don't know why that rule is there. I think
I am going to ignore it just so combat remains a deadly thing to be
avoided. 

4. My players were more concerned than I that the PGMP, FGMP and other
neat weapons are missing from the game. Will they come back? 





------------------------------

From: "M. Harelick" <matth@tull.cuy.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:05:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Compatibility to Megatraveller

Hi: 

How compatible is the new game to MegaTraveller? 

I ask because I would like to try to use some things from that game and
even from Classic Traveller itself. 

Matthew




------------------------------

From: "Mark Seemann" <mark@dk-online.dk>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:09:09 +0100
Subject: Re: UPP for Vland?

Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:39:23 +1000 Phillip McGregor wrote:

> I am just about to start writing my Vilani Military Ranks article for
> issue #2 of Dark Star - and I realised that there's nothing in any of the
> material I have easy access to that gives the UPP for the Vilani
> Homeworld! I badly need this to make some final decisions on which way to
> go with the ranks and organisation (almost all the other research is
done)
> ... so, could anyone oblige by giving it to me? I know it was in one of
> the old Traveller or DGP pubs ("Vilani and Vargr"?). Any help would be
> appreciated!

The UPP for Vland is:

1717 Vland/Vland A967A9A-F

Taken from 'Vilani & Vargr', p. 7.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/Mark_Seemann/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #592
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 593

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #582
         3. Was,Re: missiles- FCS
         4. Another: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
         5. Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww Thanks Everyone :-)) 
         6. Re: Compatibility to Megatraveller
         7. Vargr Factions
         8. Careers, Damage and Conversion from MT (LONG)
         9. Re: UPP for Vland?
        10. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        11. Re: Blank Areas
        12. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        13. Re: Compatibility to Megatraveller
        14. Re: Where is everybody?
        15. Re: Another: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        16. Re: Blank Areas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:33:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sunday Follies @ the FLGS -- LONG

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, The Golem wrote:

> >So, if a given store doesn't have T4, it may be because the owner deals 
> >through a distributor who doesn't carry T4 (and you can believe that's 
> >not because IG doesn't want them to![G]), or it is because the store 
> >owner doesn't want to carry Traveller (for whatever reason).
> 
> I see.

Oop. I forgot to mention the other possibility - some of the distributors 
had some faith in traveller, so they ordered it; they just didn't have 
enough faith, and under-ordered.  IIRC, The Armory is guilty of this.
So, the other possibility would be that the distributor is carrying it, 
the FLGS wants it, but the distributor is simply out of stock.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 18:47 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #582

In-Reply-To: <199610211147.VAA20675@curie.dialix.com.au>

<< > Let me rephrase: things are canon until invalidated or superceded 
by a later 
> product.

Which means that there *is* no "canon". It's simply at the designer's 
whim (which is what I said). So, for example, if Marc says that "Virus 
never happened, it was all a nightmare (shades of *Dallas* ;-) being had 
by Strephon", then Virus ceases to be canon. Or if a "licensed 
*official* Traveller product" states that Grandfather was all a myth 
emplaced by the Hivers as part of a psychohistory manipulation for 
unknowable (to us poor sucker humans) purposes, well, then *that* is 
"canon". Or if Marc decides that the ultimate weapon in Traveller is the 
ubiquitious large asteroid at .01c ;-), then *that* is canon? >>

In theory, yes. In practice, anyone who tried to change canon in a major 
way would get stomped on from a great height by us!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:05:18 -0500
Subject: Was,Re: missiles- FCS

At 08:48 AM 10/22/96 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>

>However, using modern missiles a guide isn't the right way to go about it;
>using the laws of physics are. No matter how high tech a sensor is its
>angular resolution is going to be limited by the diffraction limit. 
>Military starships will only be really visible in the thermal IR (10 microns),
>so (regardless of TL) a sensor needs a certain minimum diameter to resolve
>a target. Missiles will only be able to carry sensors with short ranges of
>1 hex or so. Past that range they'll need guidance from a platform with longer
>ranged sensors - the launching ship. This is particularly true if (as Merrick
>suggests) we penalize sensors on rapidly accelerating/evading missiles.
>
>Bruce
>
Bruce,

This issue with sensors has been IHMO wrong. To arrive at FCS(Fire Control
Solution) you only need three things -Bearing, Angle Theta, And Range
Rate(Rate in which target is/is not closing to the firer). You do not need
to resolve?(not a FC term) to hit a target. 

With Passive EMS it seems to me that everyone is fixated on the IR spectrum.
A Passive EMS sensor will weight in heavily other emissions that a target
might have such a 1 Gigahertz emission when the HELPAR/Thruster Plate drive
is used, the change in frequency when the drive changes speed. A Passive EMS
sensor could also pick the toilet being flushed so too speak, or even your
communications gear in standby mode. We might look at vehicles as to what
emmissions it might have.

A vehicle (Space or not) emitates vast amounts of Emmissions across many
spectrums. If you say that such emmissions are to faint, by todays tech your
WRONG. Today police can tell if you have a radar detector in vehicle just
simple piece of electronics. Do you now how much emmissions your radar
detector puts out lets say it in the milliwatt range, the police can detect
them at over a mile. Today from some satellites, very faint emmissions
(picowatt range), can be detected from orbit to within half a meter. EMM
will reduce but not eliminate a vehicles emmissions. The only way to stop
the emmissions is to turn off the source.

AS for missile a Semi Active homer homes in on the reflected emmissions off
the target. The source of the reflected emmissions could the firing ship or
another. As for how the missile deciding when to detonate, today a lot of
missiles use "Doppler Rolloff" to detect when to go boom. What is "Doppler
Rolloff", well we are all familiar with it, say a ambulance is approaching
you, you hear the siren, after it goes past you, the siren seems to have
changed sound that it makes. 

Also passive sensors always will have greater range than active. But passive
require a greater tracking time to arrive at FCS.

IMHO the only way to use missiles in combat is to use all the different
types ie KKM, Nuke Det Laser, Nuke Contact, and Explosive Contact. If you do
not I design a point defense system that will stop it cold. 

As to the debate on limiting Thruster plate drive it to certain size, it
will not work, people on this list have already given very good examples. If
you feel that thruster plate missiles will be over powering, there is an
elegant solution, use a Grav Sensor. A high acceleration thruster plate will
distort the local gravity scene in proportion to the amount of G's that the
missile is accelerating. The greater the distortion the greater range it can
be detected.

Certain EW gear that we have today can track, classify, and evaluate a
target in less time than you would believe. All from extremely small
emmissions that a target gives off.


Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: Robert Gatliff <rgatliff@io.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:03:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Another: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

> I'm not sure how much better your linear transformation is when 
> compared to the T4 linear transformation. It seems to me that _any_ 
> linear transformation you pick, you're going to end up with some 
> combination of skill, attribute pairs that end up with the same 
> target number and may seem odd upon analysis.

How about a non-linear transform:

  For any skill level there is a maximum target number;

  Skill Level     Max TN = 2*Skill+7  <- open to debate
          1          9
          2         10
          3         13
          4         15
          5         17

  Side-effect:
    + No multiplication, division, rounding.
    + Only effects characters with high attributes (9+).
    + High attributes have a limited effect on low Skills,
      but when their skill improves, it improves twice as
      fast as a below average attributes until your skill
      catches up with your natural ability. Sort a like
      real life.
    + Minor addition to existing rules.
    + Works with the proposed 1.5/2/2.5/4/5 dice change.
    + Easy to ignore for heroic (hero worshiping) campaigns.
    - It adds a table/equation that needs to be consulted,
      some of the time, i.e. may forget to do.

  Of course, Target modifiers ignore these limits.




------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:24:32 +0000
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators (was: Re: Awww Thanks Everyone :-)) 

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
>         "Nemo me impune lacessit"?  A lot of the Highland units use it.  I
>   forget what it means exactly, but I thinkit means something along the lines
>   of "I leave no-one who messes with me un-raunched upon".  Or words to that
>   effect.

Before I start, I will be using pseudo latin, latin scholars feel free to correct
How about the following:
Cogito Ergo Victoria-Zhodani unit
Nil Illegitimi Carborundum-don't let the bastards wear you down
Nil Gratum Anum Rodentum -actual motto of Tunnel Rats in Viet Nam
Maybe this wasn't such a great idea-suggested motto for Iraqi Republican Guard

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:35:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Compatibility to Megatraveller

Area: Similiarity (opinion)
Character generation: close enough (some improvement)
Task Rolling: names are same but different game (MT better)
Combat: radically different (MT better)
Starships: some similiarity (T4 better)
Animal Charts: almost identical (same)
World Rolling: identical (same)

------------------------------

From: "David P. Summers" <dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:44:01 -0700
Subject: Vargr Factions

Can anyone give the name of one of the significant Zhodani allied
Vargr faction around the time of the Fifth Frontier War?
Particularly one that is capable of sending it's own agents
around.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:02:02 -0400
Subject: Careers, Damage and Conversion from MT (LONG)

>2. When a player is injured out of or leaves a service he can attempt
>to re-enter another one. There is no apparent rules that say if 
>a person is injured out of the Army that he can't join the Marines. 
>I think that there would be a problem since the Marines probably has 
>more physical requirements than the Army. Our temporary way 
>out of this is to say that injury could also mean getting arrested, 
>fired, or in some cases an injury that is relatively minor but 
>violates something in the Imperial Bureacracy. 

This brings up an Official Question (tm) for Joe:
        Is there an upper limit on how many times a character can be drafted?
Consider the folowing example:
        Johnny Blow (I would have said Joe, but I didn't want to tick off
the Answer Man) joins the Scouts. He gets bounced after one term. Before he
joined the Scouts, he tried to get into the Navy and they said a
not-so-polite "No thank you". Johnny now decides to submit to the draft. He
gets drafted by the Navy. They boot him out after one term. He submits to
the draft AGAIN as a way of avoiding the now -3 modifier of getting into
another service. He winds up in the Scouts again. He steps on a piece of
sharp shale and gets discharged from the Scouts after two years. he submits
to the draft YET AGAIN and gets drafted by the Scouts...
        Don't laugh. There's a character very much like this in my T4 game.
As far as I can tell from the rulebook, the above scenario is TOTALLY LEGAL!
Is this correct?
>3. The 3D damage rule. I don't know why that rule is there. I think
>I am going to ignore it just so combat remains a deadly thing to be
>avoided. 

Combat should be deadly, but not automatically lethal! The reason for the 3D
limit is that some of the energy from large caliber attacks will go through
a target. There is simply a limit to a shot that doesn't hit a vital organ
will do. There are options in the rules for double damage shots and triple
damage shots. The more practical reason is the way T4 handles "hit points".
The damage comes off of your first three stats. An average stat is 7. On the
first hit, the damage rolled is totalled and applied to one characteristic,
with the remainder being distributed to the other two. The average damage on
3D is 10, so on average, the character will lose all of one stat (rendering
him unconcscious) and 3 points from another. 
Now, if you do what you are proposing, a target wearing Diplo Armor who gets
shot by a laser rifle will take (7-3) 4 dice of damage or an average of 14
points, which will scrag two stats, rendering the character seriously
wounded. And if said target isn't wearing ANY armor, that's 7 dice, or 24-25
points on the average, sufficient to KILL a character with all three
physical stats at 8 ON THE FIRST SHOT. I would reccomend against this; if
your characters want to do more damage, have them make
double or triple damage rolls.

>4. My players were more concerned than I that the PGMP, FGMP and other
>neat weapons are missing from the game. Will they come back? 
       Yes, Plasma Rifles will be back, probably in the Central Supply
Catalog. Fusion guns may wait a little longer. By the way, based on
conversations with Greg Porter and my own fevered imagination, here's my
idea of a Plasma Rifle that could be used in the meantime:

Weapon         TL      Damage  Range   Shots   Mass    Reloads   Cost
Plasma Rifle   12        23    Long     100     19 kg   11 kg    20,000
        This weapon has a max damage of 6D. It does half damage (12) to any
target within 1.5m of the primary target due to splatter. There IS an
autofire version of this weapon available...
        Nasty enough for ya?

>How compatible is the new game to MegaTraveller? 

You should be able to use any MT adventure with a minimum of conversion.
Characters require a bit more thought. On the average, T4 characters will
have more skills than their MT counterparts. Assuming a character who serves
four terms in both games, gets commissioned in the first term, promoted in
all terms, and gets Special Duty in MT half of his terms, it looks like this:

FIRST TERM SKILL LEVELS         T4              MT
                                6               5
SUBSEQUENT TERMS                15              9
TOTALS                          21              14
        This assumes that all of the above are skill levels and not stat
increases.
Here'w what I did to convert a friend's MT character to T4. I will then give
you both characters so you can see the differences.

1.) All stats remain the same. It is assumed that these already represent
all stat increases due to profession and all decreases due to aging.

2.) Figure out the career path of the MT character including all promotions.
commissions, etc. Ignore special duty rolls (T4 doesn't have them.)

3.)Give the character the same career path in T4. As the character gets
skill levels, give it the skills and levels it already has until it runs out
of levels, then roll additional skills to finish it out. Don't forget the
homeworld skills and background skills.
        EXAMPLE: In the first two terms, I gave Maria the skills she had on
her MT sheet. She had 5 levels coming to her in her third term; I had only
two levels left to duplicate her original skill list. I gave her the two
levels, then began rolling to use up the three that were left. Her fourth
and fifth terms she got all new skills, rolled randomly.

4.) be advised that some MT skills do not exist yet in T4, and others get
combined. There is no Combat Rifleman score; what I did was add that to her
Rifle skill level.
For skills that don't exist yet, either redistribute those levels, or give
the character the skill anyway, assuming that it will exist someday.

The same basic procedure could be used to convert CT characters.

Oh, one more thing; Maria's enlisted ranks are much higher in T4 than in MT
because I used the T4 rule on automatic promotion for time in service for
enlisted characters (page 21). This will probably hold true for most
characters developed under the Advanced systems in CT or T4.

SGT. MARIA VAZQUEZ (MT version)
CBC7C8          Age 38          Cr10,000
Battle Dress-1, Brawling-1, Combat Rifleman-3, Computer-1, Gambling-1,
Computer-0,  Grav Vehicle-0, JOT-1, Large Blade-1, Stealth-1, Tactics-1,
Vacc Suit-1

MASTER SGT. MARIA VAZQUEZ (T4 version)
CBC7C8          Age 38          Cr10,000
Computer-2, Grav Craft-2, Vac Suit-1, Ground Craft-2, Mechanics-1, Battle
Dress-1,
Rifle-4, Brawling-2, Gambling-1, Long Blade-2, Stealth-2, Tactics-2,
Interrogation-1, Throwing-2, Streetwise-1.

                                Allen
P.S. I earlier posted a system to convert TNE characters to T4. If anyone
wants that and didn't get it, let me know and I will send it to you or
repost it.

Elements of the above are copyright 1996 Far Future Enterprises. All rights
reserved. 



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:22:48 -0700
Subject: Re: UPP for Vland?

Phillip McGregor wrote:
> I am just about to start writing my Vilani Military Ranks article for
> issue #2 of Dark Star - and I realised that there's nothing in any of the
> material I have easy access to that gives the UPP for the Vilani
> Homeworld! I badly need this to make some final decisions on which way to
> go with the ranks and organisation (almost all the other research is done)
> ... so, could anyone oblige by giving it to me? I know it was in one of
> the old Traveller or DGP pubs ("Vilani and Vargr"?). Any help would be
> appreciated!

Hi, Phil,

I've got V&V, and Vland's UPP is A967A9A-F.  The book's got just about anything you 
would want to know about Vland, so if you need anything else, just let me know.

Kenneth.



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:50:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Matt Lewis wrote:
> 
> Here's a suggestion: How about giving at least a small amount of data for
> all systems in all sectors, but denoting in some way if a system can be
> safely changed, without having to worry about future supplements giving
> more info. This way, a ref can safely modify a system without having to
> worry about his universe and the 'real' Traveller universe diverging. What
> do you think?

Everyone listen to this wise man.  I would fully support such a system that included 
UPPs on all worlds but left a small percentage of worlds in each sector as "Ref Only" 
worlds.

That would make me completely happy.  I'd have my complete, official data, and others 
could safely change certain systems to his liking without worrying about supplements 
blowing his creations later.

As a matter of fact, I think that I have already put forth this idea in my post to Joe 
Walsh...

Anyway,

Support the ban on blank areas!

Kenneth.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> Matt Lewis mailto:matthew.lewis@queens.ox.ac.uk
> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0404/



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:42:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> What
> *I* have heard people asking for is that there be areas that IG doesn't
> detail. So for those, all that would officially exist would be the
> partial data available without visting the systems. And they'd likely
> be listed in either supplements that cover *large* areas, or in
> something that is rather explicitly marked as only having partial data.
> 
> Anything you buy that has full data for a region won't cover these
> regions.  So it'd be no different from having full data for Spinward
> Marches and Solomani Rim, but nothing for many other sectors (except
> the partial data from Atlas of the Imperium).

This is an even worse idea.  I'd much rather have a few blank systems (shudder at the 
thought, though) in an otherwise complete sector than have entire subsectors or even 
sectors without any official information.

C'mon, IG.  If you want to write us a game, then WRITE the game.  Why do you think that 
most Traveller fans really loved the DGP stuff?  It's because it was so rich with 
detail.  That's what we want!  Rich detail, get it?  

Support the ban on blank areas!

Kenneth.



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:17:56 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Douglas McCorison wrote:
> Here I don't agree with you.  The basis for my disagreement is the experience point
> cost.  

First let me say that I'm not comfortable with the way experience is being handled in 
T4.  Traveller has always had a weak experience system, but I guess MT did the best job 
at it.  At least you could reward your players at the end of every game sesssion, even 
if it was only one AT.  

My players and I look forward to the end of the night when we can review the game and 
pat each other on the back.  Maybe this is a hold over from our D&D days when you could 
give this huge bunch of xps to a character for good ideas, great role-play, and deeds 
accomplished in the nights gaming.  It was a time of relection and session appreciation, 
and all of those xps did not make your character go up a level every night.

On my list of next Traveller projects, after I'm comfortable with a task system, that 
is, I'm going to investigate alternate methods of rewarding the players without them 
being able to gain a skill every night.

Like I said, MT was the best at this, but recieveing only one AT was a bit 
anti-climactic.  I think there should be some sort of a reward system for each night of 
play--to be able to reward for good ideas, wonder role-play, and that time when all odds 
were against a character but he made the roll anyway.  This shouldn't be unbalanced--I 
think a character should average 1 to 2 skill levels per game year, depending on 
adventuring intensity, just like it is in character generation (I view character 
generation as an abbriviated form of adventuring--and Traveller has the funnest 
character generation system I have ever seen).

But now that you know my views on xps, let's look at your post.

> Look at this:
> 
> For an Attribute value of 8:
>                                                 You     T4      Me
>         Default Skill Level Tareget Number:     4       4       3
>                 + 2 Experience points
>         Skill Level 1 Target Number:            6       9       6
>                 + 1.16 Experience points
>         Skill Level 2 Target Number:            8       10      8
>                 + 1.33 Experience Points
>         Skill Level 3 Target Number:            10      11      10
> etc...

Ya know, Doug, our systems look to produce the same results except from between default 
and skill level 1.  In fact, my system is equal-distant each step.  The numbers you 
posted for my system all increase by two.  I think this is logical.  For each skill 
increase, your target number increases by two.

On the other hand, your system has a three point jump between default skill and skill 
level 1, then we see two point jumps thereafter.  If I had to pick based on this 
information, I'd say my system makes more sense.

But, I gotta tell ya, if my system produced the numbers yours did, I wouln't be that 
broken up about it.  Your system says that it is harder to become better at a skill 
level if you know nothing about it (default to level 1) than it is to become better if 
you have knowledge about it (skill level n to skill level n).  I don't have a problem 
with that thought either.

I think the ease of the total systems, for me, outweighs any of this topic, though.  I'd 
be happy with either system, but I like mine better because it is a natural fix to T4.  
My system is easy, uncomplicated, and has minimal steps from published T4 stuff.  That's 
what I was shooting for, and that's what I got.  

So, therefore, I still like my system better.

How do you feel about that?

Kenneth.



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:38:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Compatibility to Megatraveller

Amused to Death wrote:
> 
> Area: Similiarity (opinion)
> Character generation: close enough (some improvement)
> Task Rolling: names are same but different game (MT better)
> Combat: radically different (MT better)
> Starships: some similiarity (T4 better)
> Animal Charts: almost identical (same)
> World Rolling: identical (same)

I disagree with Amused.  I really, really like T4.  It is just like CT, but uses a task 
system.  Character generation produces characters that hold their own with the long 
method presented in Books 4-7 (and the 1 year method in MT for Scouts, Merchants, etc.).

I think the idea behind the T4 task system is a great improvement over MT, and MT was my 
system of choice up until now, but T4 had some problems.  I think I've come up with an 
easy fix that makes the T4 system superior to MT.

Most other items, except starship combat, are exactly or real close to CT.

In my opinion, T4 makes Traveller feel like Traveller again.  I for one, an excited 
about its entry into the market place, and I encourage you to rush out an buy it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:59:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Where is everybody?

Backman wrote;
>I'm working on my own Marathon style game for the Mac but I could always
>give a hand in doing texmaps, players et c. Wouldn't it be cool to have
>players that look like combat armour from Rebellion Sourcebook?

Hey, that would be neat.

>What mapeditor are you using? The Marathon Infinity editor isn't out yet I
>guess so what's best at the moment?

The Marathon Infinity editor (Forge) is included with Marathon Infinity. I
have it in my grubby little paws. Perhaps it needs more time to cross the
pond? ;-)


- -----------
Glenn Hoppe



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:56:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Another: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Robert Gatliff wrote:
>   For any skill level there is a maximum target number;
> 
>   Skill Level     Max TN = 2*Skill+7  <- open to debate
>           1          9
>           2         10
>           3         13
>           4         15
>           5         17

I don't like limiting the high numbers in this method because you are providing no 
benefit for having a really high attribute or a really high skill level.  What good is 
having a 14 Dex if you get the same benefit as a person with a 10 Dex.  This was the 
problem with the MT system.  I think T4 takes care of this problem nicely, and there is 
a benefit associated with all levels of skill and attribute.  It makes the different 
stats more important in the game.  

I, for one, like the full-use, full-benefit idea put forth in T4.

>   Side-effect:
>     + No multiplication, division, rounding.

With my system, if you can precalculate the target number and record it on the character 
sheet.  It's not like we are talking astro-physics (pardon the pun) anyway.  If you can 
mulitply by two, divide by two, and write a result on a character page, the is all the 
work you will have to do. 

Besides, with the system you put forth above, the same amount of math is still involved.

>     + Only effects characters with high attributes (9+).

My system gives benefit to all levels of skill and attributes.  If you use the 
difficulty fix I posited, then you won't have a success chance problem with high 
numbers.

>     + High attributes have a limited effect on low Skills,
>       but when their skill improves, it improves twice as
>       fast as a below average attributes until your skill
>       catches up with your natural ability. Sort a like
>       real life.

My system does this as well.  An attribute can only help you to as far as half the stat. 
 At that point, it's up to your expertise in the skill to improve your chances of 
success.

>     + Minor addition to existing rules.

You can't get much more minor than the system that I am backing.

>     + Works with the proposed 1.5/2/2.5/4/5 dice change.

True, but by just changing staggering and impossible to 4 and 5 dice, this is not a 
problem.  And with my system you won't be limiting the benefit of Dex 14 over Dex 10 as 
I stated above.

>     + Easy to ignore for heroic (hero worshiping) campaigns.

Heck, if you want this, then just use the T4 system as is without any change.  Why 
bother making a change in the first place?

>     - It adds a table/equation that needs to be consulted,
>       some of the time, i.e. may forget to do.

There is no table with my system.  All players need to do is look at their character 
sheets.  Let's say a character has a target number of 9 with his pistol.  After just a 
couple of task throws, the player knows that he needs a 9 or less to hit with his 
pistol.  That's it--no matter the difficulty.  9 or less.  You can't get easier than 
that.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:37:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> C'mon, IG.  If you want to write us a game, then WRITE the game.  Why do you >think that most Traveller fans really loved the DGP stuff?  It's because it was so rich >with detail.  That's what we want!  Rich detail, get it? 
> Support the ban on blank areas!

Just give me the numbers (ie UPP only), they have always been the inspiration I  need
I also just like looking at sectors and comparing worlds, this gives me good 
macro-scenarios in which to set up adventures

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #593
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 594

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Vargr Factions
         2. Re: Blank Areas
         3. Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships
         4. Re: Metator
         5. Re: Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         6. T4 in Canadian Games Stores
         7. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         8. Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)
         9. Re: Blank Areas
        10. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        11. Re: 1st T4 Game
        12. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        13. Joys of HAVING a government...
        14. Re: Blank Areas
        15. Re: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)
        16. re: check your gun at the door
        17. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
        18. Re: Personal Piezo Generators 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:41:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Vargr Factions

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Can anyone give the name of one of the significant Zhodani allied
> Vargr faction around the time of the Fifth Frontier War?
> Particularly one that is capable of sending it's own agents
> around.

According to the Gvurrdon map in alien module 3, it would have to be the Ekhile Ksafi
It seems to be an average tech level of 9

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:11:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote (regarding Leonard's post):

> This is an even worse idea.  I'd much rather have a few blank systems (shudder at the 
> thought, though) in an otherwise complete sector than have entire subsectors or even 
> sectors without any official information.
  ^^^^^^^

Kenneth,

Yikes!  According to the map of Known Space, there are 128 sectors in the 
spiral arm under consideration in the Traveller game.  So, you want IG to 
create UWP data and maps for all 128 sectors??  Yikes!
Did any previous version of Traveller have all that info? (Just curious.)

Now, this isn't saying it would be difficult.  They could do it with a 
program, and have all that data generated in a matter of minutes.  I'm 
just kinda awed that customers desire that much data.  Wow.

 
> C'mon, IG.  If you want to write us a game, then WRITE the game.  Why do you think that 
> most Traveller fans really loved the DGP stuff?  It's because it was so rich with 
> detail.  That's what we want!  Rich detail, get it?  
> 
> Support the ban on blank areas!

Hee heee heee!  Oh, Kenneth. :)  Next you'll be handing out red lapel 
ribbons. :)

Remind me not to get into a political contest with you, eh? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Oct 1996 19:12:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Exploring with jump-1 ships

> After all, how much did the collapse of the Roman Empire affect
> the level of the oceans?

Directly, none.  Of course, ancient civilizations did change the climate,
which may have affected ocean level.  Changes is land use patterns change
albedo, which changes heat absorption, which changes...

First Law of Ecology: Everything depends.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Oct 1996 19:17:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Metator

<blush>

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Oct 1996 19:41:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

>You're going to change it anyway, so why not go ahead and publish it 
>all.  The way I see it, you're happy either way, because you are changing
it.

No, you're missing my point.

I want to integrate my custom worlds/clusters into the official universe,
without having to rewrite 'official' history.  If I am changing official
material, I must forever after scan everything published and pencil in
changes.  (This is one reason I converted the Imperial Encyclopedia to
electronic format: made it easier to keep it updated.)

I want some sectors of space fully developed (like the Spinward Marches). 
They have a long history, after all.

However, I also want areas where I can site a small cluster of worlds without
disturbing the official history.  Obviously, these worlds _cannot_ be
important!  Their existence (or lack of existence) can't change official
history.  (I'll admit this limits what I can do with them. But having spent
much of my life in quiet, out-of-the-way places, I feel comfortable setting
adventures in places that never make the news.) They should be situated so
that in your example, you could tell your player: "there is no world there". 

I'll admit that a UWP/name with a statement/promise that these worlds will
not be developed further by IG or any Traveller licensee would also work,
because in this case all I'd have to change would be name/UWP.   

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Oct 1996 19:45:49 GMT
Subject: T4 in Canadian Games Stores

>A game store in Ottawa has sold out several times on T4, having to re-order.
>Yet, here in Toronto (Traveller Free since 1994!) very few people have even
heard of it

Fandom II (in Ottawa) had a stock of T4 softcovers last weekend, retailing at
$26 Cdn (great price!).

Sci-Fi World (in Toronto - OK, just across the street from Metro Toronto) has
had trouble getting more than 1-2 in at a time, and has sold out within a day
each time.


And neither my nor Shalom's hardcovers have arrived yet!  :-(  

With this record, I think I will not be buying anything from IG directly. 
After all, I can get it cheaper and faster through my friendly local game
store.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:18:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Did I answer your question, Joe?

Kenneth,

Yup, you sure did. :)   We seem to simply have a philosophical difference 
on how much data should be "officially" provided.  Like you, I can live 
with either, though. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:19:52 -0700
Subject: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we got off on the wrong foot.  Pizeo
Crystal power is the result of voltage being produced from a crystal in
response to pressure being exerted on it.  Normal pressure is 12psi I
believe (anyone have actual figures).  Inside oxygen tanks the breathable
atmosphere has been compressed to extreme pressures.  So in the tank all the
gas is pressing outwards.  What if you lined an gastank (probably best with
an inert gas like argon or something) with the synthetic crystals.  Now to
prevent the use of this tech idea from unbalancing game play we could say
that the crystals produce only limited amounts of power.  Say, something
like less than .5 MWh.  

The chem las Pistols ran at .01 MJ per pulse 
The Laser rifles ran at somethinging like .05 MJ per pulse 

****Note using this ideas would go hand in hand with Plasma or Fusion guns.

Then have leads running from the tank to a homopole generator or charge
slots.  For the laser pistol we could have detachable power clips that plug
into the belt worn.  Thus they could charge when not in use.  For rifles
their could be cables attached direclety to the generator.  I should think
that static electricity could begin to be a major problem around this
contraption.  So to avoid a hair raising experience perhaps a bodysuit
should be worn.  Something like those bodygloves for surfers.  That way
there is good insulation and a ground.

Any ideas or comments.  
Personally I kinda liked the kinetic pizeo idea.  Yet, this idea may be more
practical. 
- -----------------------

To bad, he was the fastest gun in space, but, he just couldn't dance.

||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:47:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

Joe Walsh wrote:

> Yikes!  According to the map of Known Space, there are 128 sectors in the
> spiral arm under consideration in the Traveller game.  So, you want IG to
> create UWP data and maps for all 128 sectors??  Yikes!
> Did any previous version of Traveller have all that info? (Just curious.)

Well, I'm not talking about 128 sectors.  I'm talking about the 26 or so sectors that 
comprise Imperial space and the sectors that comprise surrounding space of the Hive 
Federation, Aslan Hierate, etc.  

As I said, this does not have to be done all at once.  I think the domain idea is a good 
one.  Once or twice a year, IG publishes a supplement for each domain containing four 
sectors--with UWPs, background data, some detailed worlds, etc.  GMs could only buy the 
supplement for the area they were interested in.  People like me, of course, would buy 
all of them.

What I'm picturing is a book like TNE's Regency Sourcebook.  Maybe some of the info 
would be handled differently, but that's the general idea.  

Have you ever seen the great TSR supplements for the Forgotten Realms?  No matter where 
you go, they've got a great supplement that details specific areas.  They didn't produce 
this over night, but over the last 10 years, or so, the information has become pretty 
complete.  And, I never feel stifled with these products.  Instead, I feel supported.

So what's wrong with having official UWPs for all worlds but lableing certain worlds as 
Ref-Only anyway?  It really seems to me that this will solve all the problems and both 
sides of the argument.

> Now, this isn't saying it would be difficult.  They could do it with a
> program, and have all that data generated in a matter of minutes.  I'm
> just kinda awed that customers desire that much data.  Wow.

As far as I'm concered, the more data the better.  I'm one of those who wants to own 
everything connected with a game I'm passionate about.  I own 99% of all Traveller 
things published by GDW.  Maybe some would say, "Wow", but the more stuff out there, the 
more I like the game--and the more it grows.

Put in my vote for completeness.

> Remind me not to get into a political contest with you, eh? :)

People have told me that I am very opinionated.  Some have said that it is a deficite.  
I consider it a benefit.  But, I always strive to keep an open mind.  I will get dead 
set on something, but that doesn't mean I won't listen to people with opposing views.

Let me cite Glenn Hoppe's marvelous explanation of why jump takes about a week no matter 
what for an example.  I have never bought that idea in the 14 years that I have been 
playing Traveller.  It was never supported very well in anything that I have read 
concerning the game.  I wanted to support it because it was official, but it just didn't 
seem right.  That's why I through that idea out on the TML--to see how others handled 
it.  Glenn's suggestion was right on.  It fell into canon as well.  I liked it, and last 
Sunday, after a year of playing my campaign my way, I changed to Glenn's suggestion.  
Now, we have one week in jump no matter what.

So, please don't get the idea that I am single minded.  I'm strong minded, and there is 
a difference.  I think about my side of things, and I support those thoughts with what I 
write here.  If someone has a better idea than mine, well, I'm man enough to admit that. 
 And I do come across strong on the TML because I usually concentrate on those subjects 
that I have a strong opinion about or am interested in.  I don't waste a lot of my time 
on subjects that I for which I have no opinion, am not interested in, or feel that I 
cannot add constructively to the conversation.

So why am I saying all of this?  It's because I always read a post with your name beside 
it, and I respect your opinions.  We don't always agree (but we are in agreement more 
than not), but you handle your posts with thought and dignity.  Basically, I don't want 
you to think that I am a hard head, so I hope you don't.

> Hee heee heee!  Oh, Kenneth. :)  Next you'll be handing out red lapel
> ribbons. :)

What, you don't have one yet?  

Kenneth.

PS, I think I've got this task fix thing worked out.  How about we send in the idea to 
IG.  I'd like to see it as an optional rule in a future supplement.  Do you think 
there's a chance?

------------------------------

From: "David Blustein" <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:55:18 -0500
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

>David Blustein wrote:
>
>> It just seems a little odd to me at first glance that zero skill
>> with a high stat has exactly the same chance of succeeding at a
>> task as high skill with the lowest possible stat.

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>
> This is not true. Under my fix, a target number for a default skill
> is half the attribute--just like in T4.  If you have a skill, then
> this is doubled and added to half your attribute.  There is no way a
> zero skill character with a high stat will have the same target
> number as a character with the lowest possible stat, but high skill.

Doh!

I took a second look at the target numbers generated by your system.
Skill-4+ target numbers always beat zero skill with high stats.
(Thump. Hey, what's that? Oh, it's a forest! ;-)


> Hmm.  Task System KB v1.1.  I really like that.  Thanks, I'll use it!

Glad to be of service!


> David, did I clear up this thing any?

Yes. Quite a bit. Your system works better than the one presented in 
T4 with respect to the value of a skill and the chance of success for 
"impossible" and near impossible tasks.

I have some other comments & observations, but they're going to have
to wait for another post.


Douglas McCorison wrote:
>
> Unless you use a system with real number probabilities or weigh
> skill or attribute a really large amount more, this is going to 
> happen.

Possibly. Take a second look at my earlier post detailing a
different variant than Kenneth's and let me know if you're sure
about that. ;-)


> As the originator of the Dex 10 + Pilot 1 versus Dex 4 + Pilot 6 
> example, I believe you're referring to me.  What I objected to, was
> NOT the chances being equal.  In fact the Target Numbers (T#) are
> different (11 versus 10) in my example.  I just didn't believe that
> a fast novice (10+1) could outfly a slower experienced pilot (4+6).
> I had no problem with some people having the same target number, 
> it's just WHO would have the same target number that I wanted to 
> adjust.

So much for my memory! ;-) [please ignore the strange grey sludge 
pouring out of my right ear.]

Cheers,
     David
- -- 
David T. Blustein
http://www.nascrag.org./~dtb/
mailto:dtb@nascrag.org

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:58:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: 1st T4 Game

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, M. Harelick wrote:

> 1. I think that the way to generate  a 
> homeworld allows players to generate home woworlds that 
> may not exist. This is a real hassle when trying to figure out where
> a player is from. I am going to build a work-around for this, placing
> actual worlds to be born on in its place. 

Hi,

I agree that the home world generation system has problems - I'd rather 
they had referred readers to the world generation section at that point.
But, that doesn't solve the problem you bring up. :)

My solution to is to keep in mind that all such randomization systems 
are simply an aid to imagination.  If you want to use make up a specific 
planet, assign a PC a specific planet as homeworld, or whatever, that is 
an equally valid approach (and, as you point out, is preferable in many 
circumstances). 

You're the referee; do what makes sense for you, above all else! :)


> 2. When a player is injured out of or leaves a service he can attempt
> to re-enter another one. There is no apparent rules that say if 
> a person is injured out of the Army that he can't join the Marines. 
> I think that there would be a problem since the Marines probably has 
> more physical requirements than the Army. Our temporary way 
> out of this is to say that injury could also mean getting arrested, 
> fired, or in some cases an injury that is relatively minor but 
> violates something in the Imperial Bureacracy. 
> 
> Anyway, I am thinking of building some kind of injury table, that 
> contains bonuses/penalties for different types of injuries when tryihg
> to join another service. 

Sounds like a good, playable alternative.  Would you mind posting it all 
when you get it finished?  I'm sure others would be interested...


> 3. The 3D damage rule. I don't know why that rule is there. I think
> I am going to ignore it just so combat remains a deadly thing to be
> avoided. 

Again, a good option if that's the feel you're looking for.  Personally, 
I'm doing the same thing.


> 4. My players were more concerned than I that the PGMP, FGMP and other
> neat weapons are missing from the game. Will they come back? 

You betcha. :)  Or we'd be picketing IG's headquarters. :)

In the mean-time, there's no reason you can't just convert P/FGMP weapon 
stats from previous editions...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:53:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Rob Prior wrote:

> I'll admit that a UWP/name with a statement/promise that these worlds will
> not be developed further by IG or any Traveller licensee would also work,
> because in this case all I'd have to change would be name/UWP.

So, are we in agreement with this, then?  Would you support this if this was IG's new 
policy?

If the answers to these two questions are yes, then we are in total agreement.  I would 
be completely happy with that set up.

How do you feel about this compromise?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 23 Oct 96 11:02:54 +1000
Subject: Joys of HAVING a government...

     Please guys! Sylea is *not* late 20th century USA! 
     
     Seems to me that one of the worst things that CT did was equate 'law 
     level' with 'restrictions on weaponry' and little else; then provide 
     an 'equipment' list that was mostly weaponry and combat gear! 
     
     There are some places in the world where we don't have a 'right to 
     bear arms' - and don't miss it! Perhaps the Sylean Federation is such 
     a place; the 'oppressive government' is so pervasive that not only are 
     you not *allowed* to carry handguns - people don't do it *anyway* 
     because it isn't their culture. A can of 'blur' is probably the most 
     you'd carry even into a *dangerous* area, although most people 
     wouldn't even take Blur because they'd be more worried about the 
     police catching them with it than about merely being mugged. 
     
     The police would mug you *and* lock you up for a couple of 
     months...then deport your whole family to some colony hellhole when 
     you got out. Much better to just let somebody take your money and beat 
     you up! 
     

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:33:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Well, I'm not talking about 128 sectors.  I'm talking about the 26 or so sectors that 
> comprise Imperial space and the sectors that comprise surrounding space of the Hive 
> Federation, Aslan Hierate, etc.  

Oh, I see.  You're one of those Imperial bigots.  What, isn't the Hive 
Federation good enough for you?  Zhodani space isn't worth of your 
attention?  Huh?  How about it, Mr. High-and-Mighty "Cleon is My Beloved 
Master" Imperial dog?!?!

[Grin]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now.  :)


> > Remind me not to get into a political contest with you, eh? :)
> 
> People have told me that I am very opinionated.  Some have said that it is a deficite.  
> I consider it a benefit.  But, I always strive to keep an open mind.  I will get dead 
> set on something, but that doesn't mean I won't listen to people with opposing views.

Woah, woah, Kenneth!  I'm sorry to say I didn't state that well enough to 
get my meaning across.  That was _admiration_, not denigration!  I wasn't 
saying you are "hard headed," I was saying you are astute at debate!

My apologies for causing the misunderstanding.


> What, you don't have one yet?  

[sigh]  No.  I ordered mine six months ago, too.  But you still haven't 
sent it.  What's going on??? [G]


> PS, I think I've got this task fix thing worked out.  How about we send in the idea to 
> IG.  I'd like to see it as an optional rule in a future supplement.  Do you think 
> there's a chance?

Gee, Kenneth, I'm really not supposed to be involved in the business end 
of things.  If you want to get your stuff published, the best way to 
go about it is to contact IG, or one of the licensed publishers (Sword of 
the Knight, BITS).


Best wishes,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:50:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)

At 05:19 pm 22 10 96 -0700, you wrote:
>Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we got off on the wrong foot.  Pizeo
>Crystal power is the result of voltage being produced from a crystal in
>response to pressure being exerted on it.  Normal pressure is 12psi I
>believe (anyone have actual figures).  Inside oxygen tanks the breathable
>atmosphere has been compressed to extreme pressures.  So in the tank all the
>gas is pressing outwards.  What if you lined an gastank (probably best with
>an inert gas like argon or something) with the synthetic crystals.  Now to

        It's not the pressure, it's the *flexing* -- changing mechanical
stress. So your crystal-lined tank would produce power while you're filling
it (the pressure differential on the crystals, and hence the compression
stress) is increasing. But once it's full and the pressure isn't changing,
no juice.

        And I guarantee fundamental thermodynamics will prevent you from
getting out more power through the piezo than you provide in compressing the
gas in the first place.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 22 Oct 96 21:50:43 EDT
Subject: re: check your gun at the door

Not all governments forbid you to carry a gun into their buildings. I just went
to vote early today and noticed a sign on the county building. The sign stated
that it was forbidden to carry *exposed* weapons in the building. If you have a
permit to carry a concealled weapon, you can carry it into the building; after
all this is Colorado. I would think that the Imperium would also set case by
case exceptions on wilder worlds.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:04:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott) said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>Do you know who Muggsy Boggs is?  The 5'3" pro basketball player? There
>>*is* more to it than height.  There's also more to it than just dexterity.
>>There are is also some psychological factors that aren't covered by any of
>>Traveller's Attributes.
>
>>Speaking as someone who has played basketball, poorly, for many years...the
>>skills are NOT fairly simple!  ;->

>        OK then, let's replace basketball with caber tossing then.  Skills
>are basically what a) staying sober long enough b) to pick up a telephone
>pole and c) lob it gracefully :)?  So basically, someone with STR 9 CABER 4
>would have an advantage over someone with STR 15, but once Mr. Mor Muscle
>(that is a joke, and not a typo, incidentally) acquired CABER 1 or 2, the
>playing field would be at least level...

Back to basketball... Shaquille O'Neal, the former center for the Orlando
Magic (now a Laker) is 7'2", weighs over 300lbs, and is *fast*  Call him STR
13 and DEX 13.  He is also one of the worst shots in professional b-ball,
and his foul percentage (a free shot at the basket with no interference) is
pathetic.  He has a very low score for a pro, maybe Basketball: 2.  Michael
Jordan is strong (STR 9), fast (DEX 10) and an amazingly good player (BB:
6).  Now you can see the differences.. Let Jordan use his skill with INT (to
read the defence, or to fake out an opponent) and you'll see why one guy is
staring in a movie with Bugs Bunny wearing FOUR World Championship rings,
while the other is making bad rap records.

BTW:  Shouldn't there be a cascade skill under Unarmed Combat for Ice
Hockey?  (Go Sharks!!!)

+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:08:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Personal Piezo Generators 

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, mchildre@pcshs.com said:

>I believe that a unoffical motto of the Navy SEALs is "The only easy day
was >yesterday." 

That is the motto of the BUD/S school.  The only offcial motto I know of for
the SEALs is Team 3's "Never Fight Fair".




+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net  |
|     Professional Driver - Traveller Guru     |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm    |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
|                                -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #594
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 23 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 595

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. re: check your gun at the door
         2. Re: T4 in Canadian Games Stores
         3. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         4. Re: Blank Areas
         5. Re: Careers, Damage and Conversion from MT (LONG)
         6. Re: check your gun at the door
         7. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         8. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         9. Re: Blank Areas
        10. The Open Universe!
        11. Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)
        12. Re: Check your guns at the door, please
        13. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        14. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        15. I'm back, and pretty much caught up
        16. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        17. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: The Golem <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:39:15 -0800
Subject: re: check your gun at the door

>Not all governments forbid you to carry a gun into their buildings. I just went
>to vote early today and noticed a sign on the county building. The sign stated
>that it was forbidden to carry *exposed* weapons in the building. If you have a
>permit to carry a concealled weapon, you can carry it into the building; after
>all this is Colorado. I would think that the Imperium would also set case by
>case exceptions on wilder worlds.

Exactly, and Sylea is not a wild world, so it's not gonna let you carry a
gun into a government office, with that you could cause a lot of trouble.

Also, I'd like to reiterate someone else's point that there are a lot of
nations in the world that you do not have the write to bear arms, Canada and
Great Britain come to mind.

Thanks :)

_______________________________Peter John Miller
The Great AD&D Module Trade\Auction is running until November 21st 1996.
Check out http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/auction.htm or e-mail me for a list
of currrent items available!
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, and more, on Peter's World!
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:43 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 in Canadian Games Stores

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> >A game store in Ottawa has sold out several times on T4, having to re-order.
> >Yet, here in Toronto (Traveller Free since 1994!) very few people have even
> heard of it
> 
> Fandom II (in Ottawa) had a stock of T4 softcovers last weekend, retailing at
> $26 Cdn (great price!).

I paid $21.95 (tax included) for mine at my local store

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:21:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Rob Prior wrote:
> I'll admit that a UWP/name with a statement/promise that these worlds will
> not be developed further by IG or any Traveller licensee would also work,
> because in this case all I'd have to change would be name/UWP.

Sounds reasonable. That way you know that certain areas are available for planet 
builders, and reams of stats are available for those of us (ME!) that like that sort of thing

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:26:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> As I said, this does not have to be done all at once.  I think the domain idea is a good
> one.  Once or twice a year, IG publishes a supplement for each domain containing four
> sectors--with UWPs, background data, some detailed worlds, etc.  GMs could only >buy the supplement for the area they were interested in.  People like me, of course, >would buy all of them.

I LIKE IT!
This is an amazing idea
(BTW, I would buy them all too)

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:18:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Careers, Damage and Conversion from MT (LONG)

Alan Shock wrote:
> P.S. I earlier posted a system to convert TNE characters to T4. If anyone
> wants that and didn't get it, let me know and I will send it to you or
> repost it.

Yes, please!

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:36:59 +0000
Subject: Re: check your gun at the door

The Golem wrote:
> Exactly, and Sylea is not a wild world, so it's not gonna let you carry a
> gun into a government office, with that you could cause a lot of trouble.
> Also, I'd like to reiterate someone else's point that there are a lot of
> nations in the world that you do not have the write to bear arms, Canada and
> Great Britain come to mind.

Actually in Canada, you have only the rights that the government is willing to parcel out 
that week. Such as it being illegal tp protest within 100 m of parliament itself during 
sitting hours because it disturbs the MPs. Law Level in Traveller has never been used by 
me as a way to keep weapons out of the hands of players, it is a justification why they 
are going to be annoyed when they try anything. This keeps them on the frontiers where 
I do not have to make up grand Royal Court scenarios (just kidding)
Actually law level is a measure of the intrusiveness of a government into people's lives, 
not just a can/cannot shopping list for weapons

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 22:51:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

On 10/18/96 at 04:12 PM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>So, what you are saying is that you would like the blank sectors because
>you will have  less re-writing from "official" sources, while the rest of
>us, who put minimal effort  into re-writing published material, will have
>to put in work that we would normally not  do.  

>That doesn't seem fair.  You're choosing to put in that extra work.  The
>rest of us,  OTOH, will be forced to create systems because because they
>are not there, when before,  we could just flip open our trusty copy
>sector information.

Ken, you're being unreasonable.  IG is NOT going to detail every system
that exists in the entire galaxy.  And no, they aren't and shouldn't,
*canonize* the details as put forth by GDW in their various supplement.

Here's my version of your little scenerio...

>	GM:  "OK, guys, where do you want to go now?"

>	Players:  "Gee, let's jump to this hex."  (pointing to a blank system)

GM:  "Ok, just a sec while I pull out some notes..."  (I grab one of my
pregenerated systems..could be from an old GDW or 3rd party pub, could be
one I created myself for this or some other game.  Could be somthing I make
up on the start.)

GM:  "Main Sequence G5 star with 8 planets.  The main planet is number 2,
it's got a C87562-7 UWP.  Uh, and there's an Amber code, a plague.

>	Players:  "A plague?  Cool.  Sounds like there might be work for group
>   such as ourselves.  We prey on others misfortune, and they pay us
>   a fortune for it.

>	Yeah, we're all in agreement.  Let's head for that system."

GM:  "Ok, you've got clearance from the terminal.  You can lift when you're
ready."  (I smile my special evil smile, because I intend to 'frag em' this
time.  There's the time to the jump point, the jump and the week in jump
space for us to play.  I can keep them busy the rest of the night if I want
to. Hee! Hee!)

You could, probably *would*, do the same thing if you had the
UWP...right?  So why don't you have the UWP?  I've got a thousand systems
already detailed in old GDW stuff.  I've got dozens more that I've done
myself over the years.  I've got computer programs that I can use to make
as many as I want.  And I made this one up on the spot to fit the
situation.

>My point is this.  You're going to change it anyway, so why not go ahead
>and publish it  all.  The way I see it, you're happy either way, because
>you are changing it.  A lot of  us don't do a lot of changing, and we
>don't want to be forced to do it.  If we have  complete published
>material, then we can both be happy.

They *aren't* going to publish it all, that's the point.  They don't want
to, and I don't want them to! <g>

>One other point I'd like to mention.  I don't just want complete published
>material  (read:  no blank sectors, subsectors, or systems), but I want
>that material to be  compatible with sector information already published. 
>If IG decides to go ahead and  publish complete sector information, but
>this information is totally new (and does not  jive with some of the other
>sector supplements that I own), I'll be just as upset.   Traveller should
>build upon itself and get better.  I don't want to see IG just keep 
>reinventing the wheel over and over.

No!  No!  No!  It's the reinventing of the wheel that's the fun of it!  <g>
If they are just going to rehash all the old stuff in new books, why buy
the new books? 

IG should detail whatever they want to detail...no more, no less. I'll
provide details for whatever else I need, and change their details
too...probably. <g>


There are no rules, only suggestions, and grist for the mill!

Eris, 
    the heritic
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 23:05:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

On 10/19/96 at 04:50 PM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>Everyone listen to this wise man.  I would fully support such a system
>that included  UPPs on all worlds but left a small percentage of worlds in
>each sector as "Ref Only"  worlds.

>That would make me completely happy.  I'd have my complete, official data,
>and others  could safely change certain systems to his liking without
>worrying about supplements  blowing his creations later.

Tell you what Ken, I'm sure somebody out here will be happy to create UWP's
for a couple dozen sectors and sell them to you.  They can sell it as an
"official universe" for those who wish to play there. 

Down with Canon!

Support an Open Universe!

Eris,
    the Heretic

- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 22:57:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

On 10/19/96 at 04:42 PM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>C'mon, IG.  If you want to write us a game, then WRITE the game.
>Why do you think that most Traveller fans really loved the DGP
>stuff?  It's because it was so rich with detail.  That's what we
>want!  Rich detail, get it?

Details, complete details, on the systems they *choose* to detail.
Absolutely!

Next to nothing everywhere else.  Damn straight!

>Support the ban on blank areas!

Ban the ban on blank areas!  <g>

Support GM control and creativity!

Eris,
    the Heritic
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 23:23:11 -0500
Subject: The Open Universe!

On 10/20/96 at 06:27 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>CT had a couple of Subsectors, and slowly added things to give some
>sectors in different areas, few of them connecting. And refs were
>*expected* to come up with their own areas. MT continued the trend, but
>Atlas of the Imperium had *partial* data for most of imperial space.

>Frankly, I was starting to get *very* annoyed because there weren't any
>"unexplored" areas near any of the official ones. So I couldn't set up a
>campaign that had folks actually exploring "new" areas, unless I moved
>them clear off the map. And I'm not the only one. 

Dang!  I don't often agree with you Leonard, but I'm in full
agreement here. <g>

>Do things your way and a ref who wants to run an "exploration and contact"
>type game has to scrap *all* the official material, simply because either
>his players *will* read it, or some "official" item will screw him over by
>having a major detail that conflicts with his stuff.

Go, Boy!

I don't object to a "core" of detailed systems with officially detailed
systems and historical events.  What I object to is that core being too
big.  I want an open universe where my players and I can spread out.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 23:37:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Yet Another Task System (d20)

On 10/22/96 at 08:53 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch
Elliott) said:

> OK then, let's replace basketball with caber tossing then.  

Oh please! <g>

>Skills are basically what a) staying sober long enough b) to pick
>up a telephone pole and c) lob it gracefully :)?

a) Staying sober isn't a learned skill is it? <g>

b) Picking up a telephone pole also isn't a skill, that's a
charactistic only task.

c) Actually tossing it..OK, there's *some* technique to that.  

>So basically, someone with STR 9 CABER 4 would have an advantage
>over someone with STR 15, but once Mr. Mor Muscle (that is a joke,
>and not a typo, incidentally) acquired CABER 1 or 2, the playing
>field would be at least level...

So what would CABER+4 imply?  It would mean that Count Caber was a
professional Caber tosser?  A tosser of several years experience? Someone
that could make a perfect toss in cross-winds, in the middle of a rain
storm, while dead druck!  <g> 

On an *Easy* or *Average* toss Mr Mor Muscle should match up with Count
Caber...and he does!  But the Count should still have the advantage on the
more difficult tosses.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 23:46:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please

>> >What kind of justification have you developed for this interesting piece
>> >of early Imperial legislation?  Does this serve some Imperial purpose?
 
>> It simply proves that Marc & friends are American ie the only inalienable
>> right a human has is the right to bear arms.

Nah!  The inalienable rights include..but aren't limited to..Life, Liberty
and the *pursuit* of happiness.  Bearing arms is meant to help us maintain
our liberty from a potentially oppressive
government.  Although, bearing arms has shortened many, too many, lives,
arms have also protected many others.  Finally, It was an Englishman, I
believe, that assured us that "Happiness is a warm gun."  <g>


Eris
- -- 
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------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 00:06:51 -0500
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

On 10/22/96 at 07:55 PM,  "David Blustein" <dtb@nascrag.org> said:

>I took a second look at the target numbers generated by your system.
>Skill-4+ target numbers always beat zero skill with high stats.

...and you don't like that?

I rather think that anybody with Skill+4 *should* have higher target
numbers than anybody with Skill+0.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
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------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:59:13 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Douglas McCorison wrote:

> As the originator of the Dex 10 + Pilot 1 versus Dex 4 + Pilot 6
> example, I believe you're referring to me.  What I objected to, was
> NOT the chances being equal.  In fact the Target Numbers (T#) are
> different (11 versus 10) in my example.  I just didn't believe that
> a fast novice (10+1) could outfly a slower experienced pilot (4+6).
> I had no problem with some people having the same target number,
> it's just WHO would have the same target number that I wanted to
> adjust.
> 
> It's always good to discuss these things, so let's keep talking.
>

OK then, what about REAL skill-level limits.
I.e. a character with Dex 10 can reach a higher absolute skill level as 
Pilot, than a character with Dex 4.
I haven't seen the new rules yet, so maybe I just suggested, what is 
already realized.

Cya.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I'm back, and pretty much caught up

     Since my absence actually raised a comment (I was actually considering
typing a "goodbye" message to the list but figured "as big and busy as this
thing is, who's gonna notice me vanishing for a few days?"  It's nice to
be noticed) I'll let you all know that I've spent the past few days on
vacation from school in my home-town of Evansville, Indiana.  While there,
I took the opportunity to introduce my gaming pals to T4 (probably more on
that later) and to gather up some of the old reference materials that I'd
been wishing I had with me earlier (Supp 8 & 11, Starship Operator's, V&V and
S&A).  While I was gone I switched over to digest format (which is terribly
inconvenient for reading only select messages) and have spent the past couple
of hours skimming through what I missed (although near the end it became 
much looser skimming, so don't hold it against me if my comments below seem
a day or two out-of-date).  Something that I noticed when changing my subs 
around is that the "welcome" message is out of date (claiming that TNE is
the ruleset currently being discussed and that T4 is due out "late in 1996") 
and whoever is in charge of such things should probably update it.

     The most interesting development to my mind while I was gone (except for
being mentioned in the "where are they now" list) was Kenneth Bearden's
proposed target-number determination fix, because I thought up the exact same
fix independently a couple of weeks ago.  I may have even mentioned it
obliquely in a post here or there.  Needless to say, since it's the same one
I came up with, I'm all in favor of it.
     About the shifting dificulties, what can I say-- after all the build up 
we were given the actual "fix" seemed pretty simple, almost Obvious.  Once
again, there should be no real objections here, and in future games, this is
the progression I'll almost certainly use.  
     
     And now for a little interlude about my T4 game this week-end (or at 
least that's what it claimed to be).  Perhaps it's because they've been
polluted by all the Cyberpunk games we played in high-school, but all 4
of the players I had created completely Unsuitable PCs.  The first guy made 
a drunken Charles Bukowski type (after failing to get into college and the
military academy, being rejected as a Rogue (roll=12), and serving a very
undistinguished term in the Scouts, he became an "Entertainer" (which is to
say a vagabond poet) and received as a Mustering benefit a Weapon (which we
interpreted as somebody giving him a gun with one bullet and saying "You know
what the right thing is, now do it").  The second player (the token female in
our group) created a character (technically a Rogue) who was a prostitute
living with the poet and hustling for drug money on the side.  The third
player created a Dirty Cop (Agent, later Rogue) who had recently given up
his life of crime after becoming obsessed on the poetry of P1, and had 
decided to dedicate his life to finding him.  P4 created a character who was
a very straight-laced Cop, responsible for P3 being kicked off the force,
whose position had recently been "downsized" which he refused to accept,
pretending he's still a cop and hanging around the station all the time.  I
suppose they deserve points for being creative, and technically everything
they did was within the scope of the T4 char-gen sequence (which proves the
scope, versatility, and all-around awesome beauty of that system), but it 
didn't really leave me with a whole lot of room for running any "traditional"
Traveller adventures (such as, as I had previously considered, "The Chamax
Plague" (from CT Double Adventure 5)).
     What we ended up with was a chase around the "city map" that came with
TSR's old "Star Frontiers" game (a truly wretched game which, unfortunately,
probably sold pretty well in the early 80s-- hell, I bought it).  I didn't
want to bother with T4's combat system, so I used "Azhanti High Lightning"
(I've always loved that game's rule for killing off bystanders and exploding
machinery, as well as the fact that it only requires 1 page of tables and
no bookkeeping), but I did use T4's task system (kinda-- rather than stating
difficulty levels, I'd just say "gimme a nD roll there" as seemed appropriate, 
though the difficulty spreads probably came pretty close to Kenneth's fix).
After the three crooks were able to escape from the law (and PC4) in a stolen
grav-car, I had them be met at the space port by a representative agent of
the newly-formed Third Imperium who told them "I think our government has a 
perfect job for a group of people like you" (with the implied "and I can
think of just the person to be your supervisor"), but I shudder to think of
what would happen if this group of misfits came anywhere near a "real"
adventure.
     Anyway, everyone had a good time, they were familiarized with the basic
ins-and-outs of the new system, and when we get together in the future to 
play, T4 might end up being a regular alternative to our long-running
RuneQuest campaign (if I can talk them into generating some decent characters,
that is!)

     Now that I've got the fun stuf out of the way, I want to throw in my 
opinion on the matter of "to define worlds or not to define them."  First, I
will limit the scope of my opinion in such a way as to make my answer 
possibly pointless: I'm only referring to Milieu 0, as it will be presented
in the First Survey book, I'm not thinking about any future Milieux that IG
may produce.  From that basis, I think it would be a waste of time and, in
fact, pretty stupid for IG to give us a bunch of UWPs for worlds which may
be dozens of parsecs away from "civilization".  The vast majority of these
worlds haven't been Formally contacted in hundreds of years or more, and any
"public" UWP listing is obviously going to be far out of date.  The theme of
Milieu 0 is re-exploration, re-contact, and re-expansion, and having accurate 
UWP listings would cripple the spirit (why do a survey when we can just look
it up while the GM's out of the room).  Marc Miller's already stated that the
important areas (Vland area, Sol area, etc) will be detailed, so as to lend
some consistency to the Traveller universe, and that the maps will not just
be asterisks (like the Foreven sector in "Imperiallines") but will have the
"easily verifiable facts" (whether it's a world or an asteroid belt, whether
or not there's water, gas giants) on them.  All that you'll really be missing
then is just the size and atmosphere type of random worlds in Dagudashaag 
sector (since all pop-related stuff will have changed)-- is having those
two numbers for every one of 1100+ worlds really THAT important?  If you're
THAT crunched for time (or un-creative) then DON'T HAVE YOUR PCs GO TO THE
UNEXPLORED AREAS-- run a political or trade-based campaign rather than
an exploration/scouts based one and you'll never have to worry about those
unexplored worlds a sector or two away (or, in some cases, a few parsecs 
away, but even then you're not going to go to those worlds unless you've
got a reason to, and that will give the GM the time to fill in the blanks.
Are there really that many Traveller GMs out there whose campaigns are
so free-wheeling and unstructured that the GM can't predict within a few 
parsecs where the PCs are likely to go next?  Admittedly I haven't run all
that many Traveller games, but in those I have run, within a single session
it seems that the action is almost always limited to just one or two worlds,
and that these are usually pretty close together from session to session 
(travel isn't that fast!)
     Now for the matter (which is what I presume all the flame has been about)
of what to do with worlds in a supposedly settled and explored Milieu, I
lean the other way, for the same reasons.  In the 1100s, all of the Imperium
has been pretty much settled for close to 1000 years, some parts much
longer, and in general there shouldn't be too many surprises out there (at
least within the Imperial border).  The data of the Imperial Second Survey
is presumably included in the Library package of every ship's computer and,
therefore, should also be available to every player.  Of course, actually
providing unique UWPs for 1100+ worlds is still a mighty chore, but that's
why you start with "Atlas of the Imperium" (which I don't own, sadly enough,
so I'm going by reputation alone) which provides "detailed maps" for each
sector without full UWP listings, detail a few sectors fully (Spinward
Marches, Solomani Rim) and worry about the others as they become important
(again, if you're running a campaign in the Marches, how likely is it that
your players are going to run off to Illelish UNEXPECTEDLY?)
     In general, Late Imperial space should be a pretty much known quantity
with some room for referee customization (even after more than 15 years in
print, how many worlds in the Marches do we still know nothing about save
a name and UWP code?) but with a solid basis in common knowledge and fact (that
is, officially published maps and UWPs).  However, outside of the Imperial
border things aren't certain, you can't be how accurate you computer
databse is, and we go back to the same situation as in Milieu 0 (that is,
exploring the (relatively) unknown).  Sure, if the GM wants to play it
safe he can have his PCs "explore" a published sector (like Far Frontiers or
The Beyond), but such things are rightly "non-canonical" since they belong
to the realm of the Unknown, beyond the safe Imperial sphere.
      Summing all of that up as succinctly as possible, I'm of the opinion
that in cases where the data would be reasonably assumed to be common 
knowledge to characters within the milieu, then it should be officially
published (and, therefore, consistent across campaigns), but in cases (like
most of Known Space in Milieu 0, or beyond the Imperial borders in "Milieu
1105") where the data would not be known, at least with any reliability or
certainty, by characters within the milieu, then it should either not be
published at all, or at least done so in a modular or "unofficial" manner 
(so that the GM can take or leave whatever he wants).
     Now, in those last few digests that I very lightly skimmed, did someone
else come along and say the exact same thing?  If so, I apologize for wasting
everybody's time and bandwidth.

Glad to be back a-Travellin'

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:51:08 +0100
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

>1 other thought about the camp wanting a book including UWP's for 50 sectors.
>All told, there have not been 50 sectors generated for the game at
>this point which have been published.  DGP did 35, but they
>overlapped with what GDW put out.  Imagine the volume in terms of
>number of pages needed to list the UWP's and bits of Library data on
>each sector.  Even looking at the way that DGP did it with the
>sectors they included in various issues of TD & MTJ, with a typesize
>that was nearly unreadable, You'd be looking at a MINIMUM of 5-6
>pages.  Multiply that by 50, and you've got a book of about 300
>pages, which'd retail for about $40, and sit on store shelves for
>eternity.  Oh, and if you thought the T4 book was late, just wait
>until such a beast didn't get out until about Summer of '97.
>
>Stu
>Stuart L. Dollar               sdollar@goodnet.com
>Traveller referee since 1978, Official USENet
>spokesperson for Imperium Games

What about a CD-ROM?


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:22:23 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

David Blustein wrote to what I said:

> > David, did I clear up this thing any?
> 
> Yes. Quite a bit. Your system works better than the one presented in
> T4 with respect to the value of a skill and the chance of success for
> "impossible" and near impossible tasks.

Well, heck, it took me long enough to iron this thing out.  I've been working on it for 
about three weeks now.  I'm glad you see its merits.

> I have some other comments & observations, but they're going to have
> to wait for another post.

I'm looking forward to them.  I'm pretty convinced that this is the system that I'm 
going to use and send into IG as a possible optional rule.  In fact, I've already 
started using it in my game.  If you see other problems with it, I'd sure like to know 
what they are.


> So much for my memory! ;-) [please ignore the strange grey sludge
> pouring out of my right ear.]

Hey, don't worry about that.  I can't remember who said what either.  People take 
other's ideas and come up with a creative tangent.  This is a gathering of minds, and 
it's easy to forget who said what.

Cheers to you too,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #595
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 23 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 596

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. re: check your gun at the door
         2. UWP and Darkling Ship
         3. Hydrographics & Civilization Fall
         4. Re: Blank Areas
         5. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         6. UPP for Vland
         7. Re: Blank Areas
         8. Vehicle System is *Broken* - BADLY (?)
         9. Nonexistent Canon
        10. Dark Star
        11. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        12. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!
        13. Re: 3,2,1...0
        14. Re: I'm back, and pretty much caught up
        15. HELP in Tucson??
        16. Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:36:15 +0100
Subject: re: check your gun at the door

The reason why the yanks want their population to pack guns is to enable
them to rebel against an unjust government, that is the government should
not be allowed to disarm the population (the US being heavily influenced by
the french revolution), this is at least my opinion on the matter but and
any discussions about that being true or not can be directed at me
directly. What then has this to do with Traveller?

I see NO reason whatsoever why the Imperium should meddle in laws regarding
firearms except that they can prohibit guns in Imperial buildings. This
also clashes with the law level rules and I think that this is just another
example of IG thinkink up a *cute* rule that adds chrome to the  gameworld
without checking compatability with the rules system. When was the last
time Marc and friends ran a serious Traveller campaign themselves?

Why do I sound so pissed off? Well nothing in T4 has yet been of any
interest to me; crappy combat system, bad equipment drawings, some Foss art
that already adore the covers of various SF books I own et c. I will not
buy anything more from IG unless Greg's involved in its production. For
those who haven't got any Traveller material T4 might be nice and well
worth buying but those of us who own almost everything produced for
Traveller I see no reason except to maintain a comlete collection.


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 09:36:41 GMT
Subject: UWP and Darkling Ship

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : UWP and Darkling Ship
DATE     :  Wed Oct 23 09:24:29 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

I *was* going to post Vlands UWP for Phil but see that a
couple of people have beaten me to it.  Instead can I be a
'whinging pom' Phil and complain about UPP meaning Universal
Personnel Profile *not* 'planetary'?  Most confusing.

While I'm here, my Not so local, Not *that* friendly Gaming
Shop has a mint condition copy of the Judge's Guild 'Darkling
Ship' for sale.  If anyone has a spare #25 ($40) plus postage, I'll
send it on.  Sadly, it's out of my reach.  Details to follow,
if more than one person wants it by the end of the week
(Friday 4pm GMT), I'll take the highest 'bid'.

Timothy



Darkling Ship
By Dave Sering.  Judge's Guild, 1982
28 pages, US letter size.  Maps, tables, diagrams, illos.
Astronomical data, subsector maps, planetary maps and
encounter tables.
Details of an Asteroid workboat; Generation ship; Assault
shuttle and Grav scooter.

Comments: Third in the 'Border Prowlers' series (after 'Amycus
Probe' and 'Rogue Moon of Spinstorme') this self contained
tournament scenario involves searching and analysing
abandoned installations for their military and political
implications.
Set in the Rimward half of Satyressia subsector and the
coreward half of Darking subsector both in the Glimmerdrift
Reaches sector.

------------------------------

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:39:00 GMT
Subject: Hydrographics & Civilization Fall

        Im response to some early discussion about how the Fall of
Civilization could affect hydrographics...
        Climatic disasters. Ecologic catastrophes. Suppose the overall world
temperature raises just a few degrees because of some greenhouse effect
associated to massive industrial production, or some light orbital
bombardment, or just an indirect attack (eco-war?). Part of your ice caps
melt, and hydrographics raise. The way back could be harder, but in general
there is a balance between the water freezing and the ice melting around ice
caps, and in some worlds this balance could be VERY delicate. Ice will not
cover the same surface of the world as the water (it tends to *pile* high,
like in the Antarctic). So, a slight interference and... almost any change
of -2 to 2 points in hydorgraphics could be justified without speaking of
massive bombardments or major interference.
        Recently I saw Waterworld again, and I thought it could be used as a
TNE world easily :-).

- ----------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
University of Alicante
- ----------------------


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:41:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

Joe Walsh wrote:
> Woah, woah, Kenneth!  I'm sorry to say I didn't state that well enough to
> get my meaning across.  That was _admiration_, not denigration!  I wasn't
> saying you are "hard headed," I was saying you are astute at debate!
> 
> My apologies for causing the misunderstanding.

I understood your meaning.  I just wanted to make clear my intentions as well.  Thanks 
for the kind words.

> [sigh]  No.  I ordered mine six months ago, too.  But you still haven't
> sent it.  What's going on??? [G]

Your blood samples haven't arrived yet, and there have been some problems with your 
background check...

> Gee, Kenneth, I'm really not supposed to be involved in the business end
> of things.  If you want to get your stuff published, the best way to
> go about it is to contact IG, or one of the licensed publishers (Sword of
> the Knight, BITS).

Hey, I'm not talking about getting my stuff published.  You were the one who first 
suggested that we should send IG any task fix that we come up with and feel good about 
backing.

I mean, some credit would be nice, but I really don't care if that happens.  What I'm 
interested in is a clean fix to the task system in the game I love most.  I want others 
to love it as much as I do, and I want any problems fixed.

If my task fix shows up in a supplement one day as if IG wrote it, then that would still 
make me very happy.  It's not about getting my name in print.  It's about improving the 
game.  That's one of the main reasons I find the time it takes to be active on the TML.

I guess I'll go ahead and send it in to IG.  I just don't want them to think that I'm 
asking for money, or even credit for that matter.  I know I sound bull-shit humble, but 
all that really matters to me--I'm not kidding--is improving the game.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:14:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Eris!

It's good to see you back in action.  Where ya been?

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Ken, you're being unreasonable.  IG is NOT going to detail every system
> that exists in the entire galaxy.  And no, they aren't and shouldn't,
> *canonize* the details as put forth by GDW in their various supplement.

I'm not being at all unreasonable, and I'm not expecting IG to detail every system.  At 
the minimum, I want sectors detailed to the level that they were handled in the 
Traveller's Digest and MegaTraveller Journal.  I'm not asking for the moon here.

> Here's my version of your little scenerio...

I probably shouldn't have used my "little scenerio", because I was using the situation 
to illustrate my point.  Of course, you are right in saying that a good GM could handle 
that situation in a number of ways successfully.  Since this is the second post that 
I've seen attacking the scenerio--not the point I was making, I guess that my point was 
not made clear.

>  I've got computer programs that I can use to make
> as many as I want.  And I made this one up on the spot to fit the
> situation.

I like using official stuff when I can.  Planetary information is one of my pet peeves. 
 I'll search all my stuff and buy a new supplement if I can get all of my facts to match 
official documentation.  Heck, right now, I need to find the official Gvurrdon 
sector--something better than the incomplete crap GDW printed in the back of the Vargr 
Alien Module.  I know it is out there somewhere, and I know from all of the recent posts 
that I am not the only Traveller player out there that likes the official stuff.

> They *aren't* going to publish it all, that's the point.  They don't want
> to, and I don't want them to! <g>

The point is:  they could publish it all if they wanted to.  And, many of us do want 
them to.

 
> No!  No!  No!  It's the reinventing of the wheel that's the fun of it!  <g>
> If they are just going to rehash all the old stuff in new books, why buy
> the new books?

Well, I'm not advocating just publishing the old stuff.  I want them to improve the old 
stuff with more detail and facinating ideas, but I want that improvement to be a logical 
step from where Traveller has been.  I don't want to have, say, the Trojan Reach sector 
to look one way in T4 and be totally different (i.e. planets in different places, new 
names for planets, UWPs changed, etc) from the Trojan Reach sector that I already know.

Isn't there anything to be said for consistency?

The method that you are advocating is like watching Star Trek, except the Romulans no 
longer border both the Klingons and the Federation this season.  The producers didn't 
like that idea, so they changed it.

That, to me, is a load of crap.

> IG should detail whatever they want to detail...no more, no less. 

You've got to be kidding me.  IG should listen to their fans and give them what they 
want.  We are what makes IG exist, and I think they know this.

How about this.  IG publishes the minimum detail on all worlds--meaning UWPs and names 
only.  These sectors match up with old information, and IG maintains a consistent 
Traveller universe.  But, on several worlds in each sector--one or two in each 
subsector--IG designates as untouchable by official hands.  These would be Ref-Only 
worlds.

Can we agree on this?  I actually like this idea.  I might even design my own world 
myself...

> Eris,
>     the heritic

Hold the torches, boys, let's see what the answer will be.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:59:57 +1000
Subject: UPP for Vland

Thanks for all those who have replied with the UPP for Vland! Makes
writing the article *much* easier!

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:23:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Details, complete details, on the systems they *choose* to detail.
> Absolutely!
> 
> Next to nothing everywhere else.  Damn straight!

Then we are talking about the same thing.

 
> Ban the ban on blank areas!  <g>
> 
> Eris,
>     the Heritic

Well, I saw the Exorcist Part II:  The Heretic, and it wasn't that good.  Hmm.  

(looking in his trusty dictionary)	her-e-tic   n. One who holds opinions that 	
					differ from established beliefs

		Look, men, it's one of them!  Get a rope!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:23:35 +1000
Subject: Vehicle System is *Broken* - BADLY (?)

Vehicle Design System is Broken! BADLY!

First, some background - some two years ago I was working on a Worldbook
submission for Steve Jackson Game's "GURPS" and, as part of the design,
needed some vehicles. OK, so I sat down with GURPS vehicles and worked out
the stats for them as per the design rules therein. Once they were
finished, they looked *badly* wrong - so I checked them against the system
*again*, and got the same figures. OK, since they were basically existing
military vehicles, I checked against data available in Janes and, guess
what, the figures were *badly* wrong ... the system just did not work. The
power required to push a vehicle at a given speed was *far* higher than in
reality, as was the fuel consumption (unrealistically low, as it happens).
So, as part of the design, I simply gave stats from the "real world" and
commented that the Vehicle Design system was unusable for real world
results.

(And, yes, I know Vehicles #2 is out - but I'm still waiting for them to
arrive in Australia - and, in any case, I doubt that they have fixed the
problem)

OK, I thought, what about FF&S? Does *it* work - well, to cut a long story
short, the system (and *yes*, I *am* wearing my asbestos underwear!) was
so unusable that I simply didn't bother to try a design, I simply compared
the fuel consumption ratings given for wheeled vehicles with reality and
saw that it was likely the FF&S system was stuffed as well.

Now that the Vehicle Design System is available in Beta (and I finally
managed to find out where to download a copy!) I have checked into *it*
.. and, guess what -

Am I the *only* one to notice the following and/or am *I* completely
wrong?

Look at these real world vehicles (data from Jane's Main Battle Tanks and
Janes Armoured Personnel Carriers) -

M-113A2

Combat Weight: 11.341 tons
Unloaded Weight: 9.926 tons
Max Speed: 67.59 kmh
Fuel Capacity: 360 liters
Max Range: 483 km
Engine: 215 bhp Diesel (0.16125 kw)

M-60 MBT

Combat Weight: 52.617 tons
Unloaded Weight: 48.684 tons
Max Road Speed: 48.28 kph
Fuel: 1457 liters
Max Road Range: 500 km
Engine: 750 bhp (0.5625 Mw)

This is assuming that 1 bhp = 0.00075 Mw (according to my sources, its
actually 746 watts but, hey, 750 W is close enough!)

OK, lets consider the M-113 first -

Allowing for the 0.7 reduction to speed for tracked suspension, actual
speed is 97 kph, which converts to 161 meters per game turn.

So, 161 = (Engine Mw/Vehicle Wt in Tons) x 3000. Thus, 161/3000 =
(Mw/tons), or 0.054 = (Mw/tons).

Unfortunately, (0.16125/11.341) x 3000 = 42.65 meters per turn, or 25 kph!

The actual VDS engine output (assuming a Diesel is equal to Improved
Internal Combustion) needed to drive the vehicle at 161 x 0.7 = 0.43 Mw!

Fuel consumption is no better. The real world engine uses around 50 liters
per hour. The 0.43 Mw engine uses around 76.5 liters per hour. A VDS
engine of 0.16125 Mw uses only around 20 liters per hour - a shortfall of
150%!

Lets look at the M-60 -

Allowing for the 0.7 reduction to speed for tracked suspension, actual
speed is 68 kph, which converts to 113 meters per game turn.

So, 113 = (Engine Mw/Vehicle Wt in Tons) x 3000. Thus, 113/3000 =
(Mw/tons), or 0.038 = (Mw/tons).

Unfortunately, (0.5625/52.617) x 3000 = 32 meters per turn, or 19 kph!

The actual VDS engine output (assuming a Diesel is equal to Improved
Internal Combustion) needed to drive the vehicle at 113 x 0.7 = 1.984 Mw!

Fuel consumption is no better. The real world engine uses around 145
liters per hour. The 1.984 Mw engine uses around 250 liters per hour. A
VDS engine of 0.5625 Mw uses only around 70 liters per hour - a shortfall
of 50%!

Now, assuming I'm right - and as far as I can see, I am (please point out
any substantive errors I have made here) - it means that the Vehicle
Design system in both FF&S *and* in the CSC is *badly* broken. If the same
factor of error applies to all engine designs, you need to actually use
the following formula to find speed for a given engine size -

(Mw / Tons) x 10000 = meters per turn.

And you need to *double* (at least) fuel consumption for any given weight
of engine.

I am sure that part of this is because there is no simple linear
progression in horsepower to weight, fuel consumption, and whatever (well,
I'm *not* sure, but it seems most likely to a non-gearhead, non-mechanic
like me!). However, touting a system as superwonderful, as all the
gearheads have with FF&S (on which the VDS is based :-{ , when it cannot
even design a real world performance - well, it seems like they've missed
the point.

Now, as the designer of "Rigger Black Book" for "Shadowrun" (remember, I'm
wearing my asbestos underwear, so feel free to flame!), the approach *I*
took was that there was no way that a realistic system could be done using
real world units ... so I simply used game related units. That way no
smartass  (like me ;-) could look at the final figures and say - "That
doesn't work".

This is *the* major problem with FF&S (I understand from everything I've
read on 3G3 that Greg *has* managed to get a system that works with
weapons - modern ones, at least), if it cannot be used to design real
world modern vehicles, and insists on using real world values for future
developments, it is more than reasonable to assume that the "future"
values are as broken as the "modern" ones. And, of course, the advance of
technology since the first release of Traveller, lo these many years past,
has made some of the "advanced" technology of the three little black books
ridiculously outdated in todays terms.

Look, when designing "Space Opera", Ed Simbalist, Mark Ratner and I all
took the assumption that the future would be *vastly* more advanced that
the present ... and the predictions we made in some areas are looking
pretty modest (if not downright sick) in todays terms. Yet compare many
areas of SO technology with CTrav technology and it makes CTrav's efforts
come off far the worse - and, in designing an SF rpg today (and I am doing
so at present), I would *never* use real world values that can (and
*will*) be open to dispute.

I guess what I am saying is, it's all like the "canon" argument - there
*is* no canon beyond what Marc Miller and licensed products say there is
... and this varies so much that it isn't funny - there are *no* usable
vehicle design rules (Starships are, to a degree, different, because we
have no really 100% valid "real world" designs to measure them against ...
except aircraft or ships, and then only for accommodation rather than
systems) in existence. I am of the opinion that there are really only one
of two solutions -

1) Redo the VDS a la Rigger Black Book with a variety of chassis designs
which can be modified within limits, but provide no overall design system.
Sure, the gearheads will hate it - but it won't come up with ridiculous
power plant and fuel consumption values simply because there will be no
such values to check it against!

2) Redo the VDS, preferably by someone with Mechanical/Automotive
Engineering experience (just as Greg had the experience with Guns to make
3G3 work) to get some real world values that work! Assuming that this is
possible to do with some sort of simple system. Otherwise, go back to 1).

Actually, it just struck me that it may be a good article for a future
issue of "Dark Star" for a complete *simple* Vehicle design system based
on the ideas from RBB. At least the non gearheads will like it!

Any comments are welcome! Flames to the usual place.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:12:43 +1000
Subject: Nonexistent Canon

> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 18:47 BST-1
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #582
> 
> In-Reply-To: <199610211147.VAA20675@curie.dialix.com.au>
> 
> << > Let me rephrase: things are canon until invalidated or superceded 
> by a later 
> > product.
> 
> Which means that there *is* no "canon". It's simply at the designer's 
> whim (which is what I said). So, for example, if Marc says that "Virus 
> never happened, it was all a nightmare (shades of *Dallas* ;-) being had

> by Strephon", then Virus ceases to be canon. Or if a "licensed 
> *official* Traveller product" states that Grandfather was all a myth 
> emplaced by the Hivers as part of a psychohistory manipulation for 
> unknowable (to us poor sucker humans) purposes, well, then *that* is 
> "canon". Or if Marc decides that the ultimate weapon in Traveller is the

> ubiquitious large asteroid at .01c ;-), then *that* is canon? >>
> 
> In theory, yes. In practice, anyone who tried to change canon in a major

> way would get stomped on from a great height by us!

Yep, just like MTrav and then TNE was "stomped on" ... sorry, as much as I
*loathed* MTrav and *loathed AND despised* TNE, it was the only game in
town if you wanted to get the latest and best for Traveller. I ignored all
the stuff that I had old CTrav stuff for and which was *broke* in
MTrav/TNE, but for a lot, well, you had to at least acknowledge the
existence of the newer versions.

I don't see anything *really* objectionable in T4, but if it did turn out
that Marc Miller et al *do* do something that you and I find beyond the
pale, so what? What do *they* care ... unless its really, truly, horribly,
terribly, awful, we'll probably buy it anyway!

Phil McGregor

- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:29:55 +1000
Subject: Dark Star

Hi, a quick note to Niko Wieleba and Paul Sanders - your copies of Dark
Star were mailed this afternoon - allow the same amount of time (at least
:-( for them to get back to you from Oz.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:27:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Tell you what Ken, I'm sure somebody out here will be happy to create UWP's
> for a couple dozen sectors and sell them to you.  They can sell it as an
> "official universe" for those who wish to play there.

Oh yeah?  How much? :)

> Support an Open Universe!

Make that:  Support an Open and Consistent Universe!

Can you say consistent, Eris?  C'mon now.  Con_sis_tent.  Right, we'll try it 
together...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:36:18 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Harald Budschedl wrote:
> OK then, what about REAL skill-level limits.
> I.e. a character with Dex 10 can reach a higher absolute skill level as
> Pilot, than a character with Dex 4.

Why have a skill level limit.  Stephen Hawking is in a wheelchair, and he must be at 
Astro-physics-6 by now.  Oh, I see.  Astro-physics is governed by Edu--not a physical 
attribute.

I just have a problem with having a level limit in Trav.  It is not needed.  The way the 
experience systems are designed, in all versions of Traveller, it is hard to continue 
going up at the higher levels.  The possibility is still there for those who do, but the 
probability is pretty small.

I don't think Trav has a problem in this area.  I think the idea is good, but this is 
not an area of T4 that needs fixing.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 05:53:19 -0400
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

In a message dated 96-10-20 06:34:26 EDT, you write:

<< I've not 
 > seen anywhere (not even in the "Starship Operator's Manual") where the 
 > MINIMUM length of a jump is defined. >>

The standard jump time for a successful jump (not becoming a misjump) is 168
hours (plus or minus 10%).

Marc


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:56:03 -0700
Subject: Re: I'm back, and pretty much caught up

Damn, did you feel like typing, Trent?

Anyway, I'm glad that you are back.

Trent Smith wrote:
>      About the shifting dificulties, what can I say-- after all the build up
> we were given the actual "fix" seemed pretty simple, almost Obvious.  

I feel the same way.  I worked for days, used several probability print outs from 
yourself and others, and even play tested the thing.  I's kind of anit-climatic when you 
think about it.

>  The first guy made
> a drunken Charles Bukowski type (after failing to get into college and the
> military academy, being rejected as a Rogue (roll=12), and serving a very
> undistinguished term in the Scouts, he became an "Entertainer" (which is to
> say a vagabond poet) and received as a Mustering benefit a Weapon (which we
> interpreted as somebody giving him a gun with one bullet and saying "You know
> what the right thing is, now do it").  

Ha!  I love it!

> The second player (the token female in
> our group) created a character (technically a Rogue) who was a prostitute
> living with the poet and hustling for drug money on the side.  The third
> player created a Dirty Cop (Agent, later Rogue) who had recently given up
> his life of crime after becoming obsessed on the poetry of P1, and had
> decided to dedicate his life to finding him.  P4 created a character who was
> a very straight-laced Cop, responsible for P3 being kicked off the force,
> whose position had recently been "downsized" which he refused to accept,
> pretending he's still a cop and hanging around the station all the time.  

Heck.  I think it's great.  Much better story fodder than the usual "I've been in the 
Army for 12 years and I just want to own my own ship now" Traveller characters.

> I suppose they deserve points for being creative, 

I'd say so. Take the ball and run with it.

>      What we ended up with was a chase around the "city map" that came with
> TSR's old "Star Frontiers" game (a truly wretched game which, unfortunately,
> probably sold pretty well in the early 80s-- hell, I bought it).  

I use it too, converted to Traveller, of course.

> I didn't
> want to bother with T4's combat system, so I used "Azhanti High Lightning"
> (I've always loved that game's rule for killing off bystanders and exploding
> machinery, as well as the fact that it only requires 1 page of tables and
> no bookkeeping), 

Well, I'll be.  That's what my game is using.


>      Anyway, everyone had a good time, they were familiarized with the basic
> ins-and-outs of the new system, and when we get together in the future to
> play, T4 might end up being a regular alternative to our long-running
> RuneQuest campaign (if I can talk them into generating some decent characters,
> that is!)

Nooo!  Keep those.  Interesting weak characters are always better, and more fun, than 
boring strong ones.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Bill Hutchinson <hbill@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 03:08:29 -0700 (MST)
Subject: HELP in Tucson??

I been playing traveller in Tucson for the past 12 years.
And always had players.Now people ask me what traveller is!
Has anyone found a way to get a game going??
I even run a demo game but the only people to
show up where playing warhammer 40K, or magic
looked at the traveller i had setup and 9 out of 10 never 
even see traveller or even played a sci-fi game..

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hbill                                     __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____
hbill@primenet.com                       /__)/__) / / / / /_  /\  / /_    /
                                        /   / \  / / / / /__ /  \/ /___  /-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:36:39 -0700
Subject: Re: High Level Skills Should Mean Something!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 

> Why have a skill level limit.  Stephen Hawking is in a wheelchair, and he must be at
> Astro-physics-6 by now.

Well, this won't give him the best pole-jump-skill, will it?
[sorry if anybody is offended, don't mean it bad]

>  Oh, I see.  Astro-physics is governed by Edu--not a physical
> attribute.

Yep, that's the idea.

> 
> I just have a problem with having a level limit in Trav.  It is not needed. 

Yes, it COULD take some motivation from the players, if handled too 
restictive.

> I don't think Trav has a problem in this area.  I think the idea is good, but this is
> not an area of T4 that needs fixing.

Never said it is.
I just think, that could be something, where one as a GM can maneuver in 
the gray zone between canon and anti-canon. Can make fun if you do it 
right, but beware of misjumps ;-) !!

Cya.
Buddy

(I heard a good one, and want to deliver it here:
"War doesn't prove who's right, it only proves who's left.")

- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #596
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 23 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 597

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         2. Man, that sure is heavy!
         3. traveller auction
         4. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         5. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         6. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
         7. Traveller Gaming THIS WEEKEND
         8. Re: 3,2,1...0
         9. Info on Gvurrdon Sector
        10. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        11. Re: Blank Areas
        12. Re: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 02:47:50 PST
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

In mail you write:

> Rob Prior wrote:
>> But I'd like to keep the
>> rewriting to a minimum, and thus I think that placing some backwater areas
>> into official limbo is a reasonable solution.
>> 
>> Notice that I wrote "backwater".  Those of us that want to change the grand
>> sweep of Imperial history will do so anyway, rewriting entire sectors as we
>> choose; those of us that want to run low-key campaigns against the official
>> backdrop should have a quiet corner of the sandbox where we can play our
>> games in peace, but attached to the official universe so we can come out 
> and
>> play with everyone else when we want to.
>
> So, what you are saying is that you would like the blank sectors
> because you will have less re-writing from "official" sources, while
> the rest of us, who put minimal effort into re-writing published
> material, will have to put in work that we would normally not do.

*Only* if you want to use those sectors! And that makes them *no*
different from the large areas for which no real data has *ever* been
available.

> That doesn't seem fair.  You're choosing to put in that extra work.
> The rest of us, OTOH, will be forced to create systems because
> because they are not there, when before, we could just flip open our
> trusty copy sector information.

Oh? And where, pray tell, did you get info about sectors that hadn't
been published yet? Or where *never* published. You are *assuming* a
condition that has *never* existed.

>         GM:  "OK, guys, where do you want to go now?"
>
>         Players:  "Gee, let's jump to this hex."  (pointing to a
> 	  blank system)
>
>         GM:  (cursing because he didn't put in 4 hrs. last night
>	  detailing that system) "Uh, are you sure you guys want to go
>	  there?  I forgot to tell you that you've heard some rumors
>	  that there is a bad, uh, plague, yeah, that's it, a plage is
>	  running rampant through that system."

Most refs I know would just say: "Get real, you *know* that they
haven't published anything about that area. Do you want to *play* or do
you want to wait a couple of weeks for me to draw up things?"

> Anybody who has refereed will agree that the above situation can be
> all too real.  While I agree that some of the best games can come
> from a night of ad-lib, I always ad-lib better if I have some
> information at my fingertips on which to base my decisions.

Sorry, but you are being terribly unrealistic. What would you do if
your players were operating at the "edge" of the areas that have been
detailed in the various supplements. There'd *still* be no data, and
you can't blame anybody for it. The "detailed" areas are *always* going
to be limited, regardless of whether or not there are any "set asides".
If your players decide to go over the edge, it is up to you to just
plain *tell* them that they can't.

> My point is this.  You're going to change it anyway, so why not go
> ahead and publish it all.  The way I see it, you're happy either way,
> because you are changing it.

Nope. If it's officially detailed, I can virtually guarantee that
someone will have *something* in the area that'll screw us up if we
change things. That sort of thing tends to propogate as time goes on
until you wind up having to re-write large chunks of the official
material. No thanks.

> A lot of us don't do a lot of changing, and we don't want to be
> forced to do it.  If we have complete published material, then we can
> both be happy.

Published material can *never* be complete. There will *always* be an
"edge" to the published areas. And if your players decide to cross it,
you are right back in the same fix you just complained about. Only you
can't blame us.

Face it. Regardless of wether or not there are "set aside" areas, there
will *always* be places that aren't covered by published materials. So
you have two choices. Tell the players that the area is off limits
because there's no info, or live with ad-libbing it.

The *only* difference that "set asides" make is the the "blank" spots
will be easier to reach (ie, the edge of the mapped out areas will be
more ragged). That's it.

> One other point I'd like to mention.  I don't just want complete
> published material (read:  no blank sectors, subsectors, or systems),

That's flat out impossible. The maps will *always* have an edge! So
unless you expect IG to publish the entire *galaxy* (100,000 parsecs
across!) you will have to accept the *fact* that there will *never* be
"complete" info. 

All we want is to have some easier to get to "frontiers".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 06:36:26 -0700
Subject: Man, that sure is heavy!

Here's a quick question for all of you--just for light discussion.  I'm not trying to 
start a blood war or anything.

Why are the weapons in the TNE equipment guide so heavy?  

I was reading Phil's post on the broken vehicle design system in FF&S when it made me 
think of a problem I had last game session.

It's nothing major--just a compatibility issue between Traveller systems, but, man, 
those weapons in TNE are really heavy.

In my game, we're using the T4 rules but the TNE combat system, converted to the T4 task 
system, of course.  I like rolling for every bullet and seeing those bullets tear apart 
a target with the hit location chart.

But, I'm using the easy CT/MT/T4 system of weight/load/carry calculation.  You know--you 
can carry your Str in kilos.

As my players jumped from the SBD to the outsystem Auto Drone, I made them all check 
their encumbrance to make sure that they wouldn't get bogged down with items if they ran 
into some gravity.

The TNE weight allowance really makes even a weak character able to carry vast amounts 
of weight.  We've got a character in our group with a Str of 2 and an End of 5.  Under 
TNE rules, that character can carry 21 kilos without being burdened.  Man, that's over 
46 pounds--pretty good for a person who is almost crippled.

This is why I switched to the T4 weight system, but have you seen those weapon weights?

A magazine for a gauss rifle in TNE weighs 1.713 kg vs. the .4 kg weight given in Book 4 
and the MT Imperial Encyc.  That's over 4 times the weight!  

The lightest power pack for a TL 9 laser rifle weighs 44.3 kg in TNE vs 4 kg in CT/MT.  
I noticed T4 really increased the weight with its TL 12 laser rifle--a 15 kg power pack.

These numbers are all over the board.  Up until now, I've been just saying what we are 
seeing is the variabilty among different manufactures on different worlds, but a power 
pack that almost weighs a hundred pounds is hard to believe.  Who would make such an 
impracticle weapon?

I would think that this was just a printing error, but TNE is rife with such outlandish 
weights.  I could go on--PGMPs, FGMPs, several small arms, and so on.

Have any of you thought about this, and do you have an easy fix that I can use?  Right 
now, I'm just estimating weights based on T4/MT/CT, but if anybody has a more 
appropriate way to make these things lighter, then please post it.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 06:40:26 -0700
Subject: traveller auction

You people aren't going to believe this.

I've got a friend who's been collecting comics, and for years, he's been buying many
from this guy who operates out of his house.  So, I'm with my friend the other day, and
he decides to stop by the comic guy's place to get his monthly fix.  I'm there for the
first time, and what do I find?

Traveller Stuff!  Yes, beautiful, mint condition, never been purchased before, original
CT Traveller Stuff.  I was in heaven.

I purchased all he had.

I got the first edition of Snapshot, unopened, still in the wrapper!  I just love it.
Ain't life grand?

The guy said life is funny that way.  He's had it since it was published in 1979.  It's
been through two stores that he's owned, and nobody has ever bought it.  He saw how
flabbergasted I was, and he mentioned that it was just ironic that he's had it all these
years only to have it fall into the hands of a true Traveller fan--someone who can
really appreciate it.

Well, I've filled in some missing holes in my collection, and I let my gaming group pick
their spoils.  To my dismay, I still have some items left.

And, like my Snapshot boxed set, I thought that I would give these wonderful pieces of
literature a chance to find a home with someone who would really appreciate them.

What better place to do this than on the Traveller Mailing List?

So, sharpen your pencils for your Christmas lists, I'm going to do my first Traveller
Auction.

All items (but one) are in mint condition.  The auction will last until November 21st,
and I'll post updates at least once per week.  Only US currency can be accepted, and
postage will be over and above the bid price.

E-mail all bids to me directly at dreamer@brokersys.com.  If two equal bids are sent,
then I will look at the time sent as the deciding factor.  The auction is open to
everyone, and you don't have to be on this list to bid.

OK, so here's the golden find:



Item#1  Original CT Traveller game.

        Ya, know, the little black books in that little black box.  Stuff about the free
        trader Beowulf on the outside.  It's still in its shrink wrap, and I can hear
        the original dice rattle around inside!

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $80



Item#2  Adventure-1 The Kinunir.

        Take your group on any of 4 adventures aboard a 1200 ton Kinunir class battle
        cruiser.  Book includes rumors, battle cruiser specs, map and info of the Regina
        subsector, library data, NPC crew, and complete deck plans.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#3  Adventure-2 Research Station Gamma.

        Adventure on the planet Vanejen in the Spinward Marches and discover a secret
        Imperial Research facility.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#4  Adventure-10 Safari Ship

        Anybody for a hunting trip?  An amateur scientist needs your help to capture a
        rare animal.  Book includes planetary/subsector maps and complete deck plans of
        the 200 ton Animal class safari ship.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#5  Adventure-11 Murder on Arcturus Station

        It's a who-dunnit, Traveller style.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#6  Double Adventure-3 The Argon Gambit/Death Station

        Help a patron with a blackmail plot by breaking into a villa or fly out to
        investigate the sudden loss of communication with a lab ship.  Book contains
        complete deck plans of the 400 ton lab ship.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#7  Double Adventure-6 Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest

        Get caught up in conflict on a newly contacted world or deal with the problems
        of a world with a religious dictatorship.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#8  The Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #6

        Featuring an article about the Imperial Imterstellar Scout Service by Loren
        Wiseman and Marc Miller.
        
        Also has two Amber Zone adventures, High Guard pull out with
        additional/corrected rules, an article about the stock exchange in Traveller,
        Bestiary about Dolphins, Ship's Locker with a model 317 pressurized shelter, and
        the Traveller News Service from 1106.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9

        

Item#9  The Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #17 (Atmospheres)

        Featuring a pull out Special Supplement 2--Exotic Atmospheres book.

        Also has close air support rules for Mercenary, a Striker adventure to go with
        Double Adventure 5-The Chamax Plague/Horde, Contact the Jgd-ll-jagd, Traveller
        News Service from 1109, Bestiary with an ice crawler, Ship's Locker with Assault
        Rocket Launcher and Image Converter sights, and Random Notes about Solomani,
        Vilani, and Zhodani names.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#10 The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Volume 2

        Includes selected articles from Journals 5 to 8.

        Features 5, count 'em, 5 Amber Zone adventures, and Contacts for Vargr and
        Aslan.

        Also has articles on speculative trade without a starship, notes on refereeing
        Traveller, starport details, the Traveller Stock Exchange, and the Interstellar
        Scout Service (by Loren Wiseman and Marc Miller).

        And there's more:  Bestiary on the Dolphins and Ship's Locker containing LSP
        pressurized shelter (by Marc Miller!), lifeboats, and rescue balls.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#11 The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Volume 3

        Includes selected articles from Journals 9 to 12.

        Features 4 Amber Zone adventures, Contacts of Virushi and Newts, and expanded
        rules for medical treatment.

        Also has articles on the care and feeding of NPCs, a referee's guide to planet
        building, archaic missle weapons, Bestiaries for ragfish, bloodvarks, tree rats,
        and kian, and Casual Encounters with Dev Landrel (scientist/ancients
        archeologist) and Princess Glorinna Firella (noble/heiress).

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#12 The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society Volume 4

        Includes selected articles from Journals 13 to 16.

        Features 4 Amber Zone adventures, Contacts of the Darrians and the Ael Yael, and
        a wonderful article on SuSAG by Loren K. Wiseman.

        Also includes articles on languages in Traveller, bank retaliation on those who
        skip with starship loans, and additional/optional rules for High Guard.

        There's also a Casual Encounter with Lothario Lochinvar Finger (free trader), a
        Bestiary with the crested jabberwock, and Ship's Locker with torches and welding
        equipment.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#13 Supplement 1-1001 Characters
        
        Need a quick NPC?  In this supplement, there's, well, 1001 characters to choose
        from complete with UPP and skills.  There are tables for Naval, Marine, Army,
        Scout, and Merchant personnel as well as 136 characters drawn from the Other
        category.  The book also has encounter tables for troops, policemen, and thugs
        as well as 9 characters drawn from popular science fiction literature.

        Condition:  Worn
        Min. Bid:  $3



Item#14 Supplement 2-Animal Encounters
        
        Having trouble with the tables and missing info in T4?  This is the supplement
        for you.  It features notes on encounter generation and mucho encounter tables
        based on location and atmosphere.

        Contition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $9



Item#15 MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia by Marc W. Miller

        A great source of information and library data.  Contains maps detailing the
        wars of the Imperium, a consolidated time line with Imperial, Aslan, K'kree,
        Vilani, Solomani, and Zhodani time systems, a discussion of all of the Imperial
        Emperors from Cleon through Strephon, section on nobility, a library section for
        players, a library section for referees, Traveller equipment, Traveller vehicles
        and starships, a section on space travel, starship operating procedures flow
        charts, and UWPs for the Spinward Marches.

        Condition:  Mint
        Min. Bid:  $12

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 03:51:00 PST
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

In mail you write:

> I think it is a bunch of crap leaving huge sections blank

Depends on how you define "huge". My feeling is that the "blank" areas
will (and should be) small IN COMPARISON TO the detailed areas, at
least until there are a *lot* of sectors detailed.

> Sounds like they wanna sell us a game and not do any background work.

Face it, there's no way they can detail the entire universe. We'd just
like to get that reconized so they don't block off "open" areas by
sticcking something on the far side.

> I don't know if the "leave it blank" players have nothing better to
> do than roll sectors, but I do (I enjoy it, but I do not want to make
> a career out of generating planets, just adventures)

> I use the UPP to generate adventures, not the other way round

It's not practical to do *true* "frontier" exploration *anywhere*
within about 5 *years* travel of core, simply because of the way GDW
scattered things around. You'll either be exploring areas that were
explored and then "lost" in the Long Night, or you'll run into one of
the other races.

That *really* limits you if you want to have stuff other than "one
world" adventures.
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 03:40:52 PST
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

In mail you write:

> Let me explain _why_ I want official blank areas.  
>
> When developing Traveller 'history', a lot of people try to tie their stories
> into published information. In fact, many of Traveller's biggest
> inconsistencies have come from someone treating a throwaway reference as
> 'canon' and extrapolating from it.  If I decide to change the world of
> Sulieman (for example), then I have to change all references to Sulieman in
> all published material.  In other words, with every new product I will have
> to scan its library data to see if I have to alter anyting for my universe.

Yes!

> Now, some of us do that anyway.  (I know I do.)  But I'd like to keep the
> rewriting to a minimum, and thus I think that placing some backwater areas
> into official limbo is a reasonable solution.

Right.

> Notice that I wrote "backwater".  Those of us that want to change the grand
> sweep of Imperial history will do so anyway, rewriting entire sectors as we
> choose; those of us that want to run low-key campaigns against the official
> backdrop should have a quiet corner of the sandbox where we can play our
> games in peace, but attached to the official universe so we can come out and
> play with everyone else when we want to.

I'd like to avoid the problem of the backwaters getting "surrounded"
which happened with depressing regularity in CT, and then in MT. TNE
effectively didn't *have* backwaters.

That's why I'd like to see the "backwaters" start as the tip of
"wedges" pointing more or less towards the "center" of the Imperium. So
the Empire can keep expanding, but so can we. We'd always have "more
space" on the "outside" edge of our territory.

At the same time, by keeping the angle of the wedges reasonable (the
pie slice analogy I used in another message), the detailed space gets
to expand outwards as well. 

And not all "wedges" have to start close in. That way there can be new
sstreches of "fresh" territory added as the detailed areas (both
officially and unofficial) expand ever outwards. 

If "known space" ever gets big enough, spiral arm boundaries and the
like can set limits to *both* types of area, and let new mixes of
official and unofficial start up on the far side.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 03:06:46 PST
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

In mail you write:

> You haven't misunderstood.  Let me be very clear.  I want complete UWPs on 
> every world in the sector.

Fine. I just want some of the sectors to be "blank" so that I don't
have to worry about conflicting with official data.

> I want the new published data to be compatible with the old data that
> has been published.  This means that the Solomani Rim will still look
> like the Solomani Rim that I know.  The Spinward Marches will still
> be the Spinward Marches that I know.

Maybe possible, maybe not. See below.

> The sectors published by DGP in their magazines and supplements will
> still be the same (I know that there was a problem with the Judges
> Guild Ley and Gateway Sectors, but I'd like the info as complete and
> compatible as possible.)

Not gonna happen. It's already been "officially" stated that the
program used by DGP to generate sectors was "broken", and new data
*will* be different. Right down to star locations.

As for Judges Guild, I have the *four* sectors they published. Atlas of
the Imperium doesn't even have the same star locations! As I recall,
Beyond, Trojan Reaches, and other third party stuff was invalidated
just as badly during the megatraveller years.

> If IG likes, I have no problem with them designating certain worlds as 
> untouchable and 
> reserved for referee use.  These planets would still have an official name 
> and UWP, but 
> IG would designate not to develop them in any supplements.  

Nope, what I want (and I seem to be typical of the "blank areas" folk)
is blanks at the subsector and sector levels. And I'd rather not have
them be surrounded by detailed areas.

So instead of published stuff eventually forming a growing circle, I'd
like to see some "pie slices" taken out at various places around the
rim so that we can have "virgin territory" without having to site it
well past the "rim" (and thus way out of the flow of normal stuff).

Heck, just give a few "minor" rifts and areas with sparse stellar
distribution and you'd get expansion to work that way anyhow.

> I think this would solve the problem.

I disagree. A planet here and a planet there doesm't really help. It
means that we can't have multi world civilizations that we get to run
first contact with, or things like a "puzzle" consisting of ruins of an
extinct (non-Ancient!) civilization spread over a number of worlds.

> If others want to change it in their campaigns, then they can do it.
> Why force this blank system thing on the many of us who don't want to
> see it?

Because the *clear* evidence from the past shows that if we don't get
GDW to leave us some areas as a "frontier" and "unexplored space",
they'll wind up "stealing" our areas out from under us. 

Consider someone who started with the Spinward Marches sector. There is
not *one* adjacent sector that wasn't effectively "pre-empted" by GDW,
DGP and company sticking various empires off in that direction. Thus
killing any "exploration" campaign that wasn't willing to throw out
*everything*. In which case, they aren't going to sell *any*
supplements to us.

> I think doing the names and UWPs on the systems that they were going
> to leave blank is a great idea.  Secure these areas for GMs.  Those
> GMs that detail the system can either choose to use the official name
> and UWP, or they can change it to suit their needs.

The most I'd agree to is the *physical* UWP stuff. I *don't* want
starport, population, government, law and tech defined. And the only
reason I agree to the *physical* stuff is that it makes it possible for
me to "trade" world (and world group!) writeups with other folks who
are detailing the areas. 

> The problem is, the people who are changing are still changing.  We
> who are not changing are forced to change when we don't want to.  Hey
> everyone, the system is not broke as it was before.

First of all, our whole point is that we *don't* want to be changing.
We want to be able to supply our *own* details, without having
something official come alkong and jerk the rug out from under us.

Second, you are *not* being forced to change. You just have to treat
our areas they way you'd treat any other area that hasn't been detailed
(and that's a *lot* of the area on the big map of the Imperium and
surrounding powers!) You just fail to realize that there *are* such
areas, even if you get your way.

> I'd like to see IG come out with some supplements detailing sectors.

Believe it or not, so would I. I just want some sectors left alone for
folks like me to deal with as *we* wish.

> This could be a series with one sector per book, or some bigger unit,
> like doing all the domains together.

Trust me, you don't want units bigger than sectors detailed this way.
Either the detailing suffers, or it becomes a royal pain to find the
info you want.

> I mean, heck, it is almost the year 2000!  A space game should have
> some game mechanic to implement three dimensions.

Without computer support, 3d is just plain not practical. Remember, the
"galactic disk" in the vicinity of Sol is several hundred to several
*thousand* parsecs thick. 

Have you ever played any of the games that attempt to handle true 3d
space? As far as I know, I own copies of all *three* of them. SPI's
"Starforce Alpha Centauri", Traveller 2300, and a third one I can't
recall the name of right now. 

Ever single one of them is difficult to play because you can't "see"
the relationships between the stars, except from the one direction the
map lets you. And they are all limited to 30-50 light years from earth,
as it gets just *too* complex after that.

I had a computer program (lost in a disk crash) that left me view the
same stars in 3d on the screen. I could zoom in and out, and rotate the
view. It made it a *lot* easier to figure things out, but it still left
much to be desired. If we ever get decent 3d displays, or at least
cheap VR gogles *then* we can start working with 3d.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:12:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Traveller Gaming THIS WEEKEND

Just a brief note to remind the list that the U*Con Gaming Convention is
going on this weekend, October 25th-27th, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, at the
Michigan Union (corner of State and South University).  

List member Allen Shock will be running T4; we will also have an auction
and a dealers' room, both of which should be good places to obtain
Traveller stuff (I saw a whole stack of CT material at one of our local
game stores which I assume is coming to the con!).

In addition to Traveller, there will of course also be a lot of other
events (for those who play Magic, Richard Garfield will be attending).

For information on U*Con, email ucon96info@umich.edu or check out our WWW
site at http://www.deathstar.org/~ucon.  Hope to meet some of you there!

Joe Saul
U*Con Chair (and Traveller addict since 1978)
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:41:28 -0700
Subject: Re: 3,2,1...0

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> The standard jump time for a successful jump (not becoming a misjump) is 168
> hours (plus or minus 10%). 
Which leads me directly to the other question:
Every jump distance needs the same time??? How can this work out?

Call me silly, but I am still quite new to the stuff.

Cya.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:05:31 EDT
Subject: Info on Gvurrdon Sector

There is some information on the Gvurrdon sector at 

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/HIWG/Gvurdon/

The data was primarily developed for as an HIWG project by Roger Myhre. 
It may be geared more for TNE, but the material is there.

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:11:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> No!  No!  No!  It's the reinventing of the wheel that's the fun of it!  <g>
> If they are just going to rehash all the old stuff in new books, why buy
> the new books? 

Here's how I look at it:  IG is doomed to suffer the slings and arrows of 
outraged fans no matter what they do.  Look at this scenario, with three 
trav fans at their local game store, looking over First Survey:

John:  "Hey, look!  First Survey is out.  Let's check it out!"

Cindy:  "Look at that!  They're re-selling the same stuff GDW sold twenty 
years ago!  What a rip off!"

Dan: "No, it's different.  They changed the hydrographics percentages on 
every world.  The nerve of them!"

John:  "You two both missed the fact that there are blanks in the UWP 
listings.  What a bunch of lazy schmucks!"

And so it goes.  They just aren't going to make everyone happy. :(


> IG should detail whatever they want to detail...no more, no less. I'll
> provide details for whatever else I need, and change their details
> too...probably. <g>
> 
> 
> There are no rules, only suggestions, and grist for the mill!

Hey, sounds like a good tagline for IG's advertisements. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:12:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >Support the ban on blank areas!
> 
> Ban the ban on blank areas!  <g>
> 
> Support GM control and creativity!

Hehe.  "More power to the GM's!  The corporate bureaucracy has to end 
unfunded mandates!"  oops.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.micro.lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:11:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
> It's not the pressure, it's the *flexing* -- changing mechanical stress.

That's it: piezo-electric body armor, which give you juice every time
you're shot. :-) Now, when you're out of power, just jump out of the
foxhole and take a few rounds in the chest. :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /       Allentown, PA  18103-6209      O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 23 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 598

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Joys of being a government
         2. T4 Drafts
         3. Re: Check your guns at the door, please 
         4. "Nemo me impune lacessit"?
         5. Pizeo Addendum
         6. Re: Errata
         7. Re: Errata
         8. Re: Population Distributions and Blank Areas
         9. Re: Blank Areas
        10. Law level and guns?
        11. Re: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)
        12. Skills vs. Characteristics?
        13. Skills vs. Characteristics?
        14. World populations
        15. Re: Check your guns at the door, please
        16. Re: Pizeo Addendum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:19:56 -0500
Subject: Joys of being a government

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au bleats:
>     Please guys! Sylea is *not* late 20th century USA! 
  No, it's not.  Their head of state seems only mildly corrupt.
     
>     There are some places in the world where we don't have a 'right to 
>     bear arms'  
  Congraduations.  These places are also easily replicated in Traveller
by raising the law level.

>- and don't miss it!
  As long, as you lower the crime level to match the raise...

>Perhaps the Sylean Federation is such a place; 
  A quick reading of the T4 book show that it is not.  Parts of the planet,
and the Imperium can easily be more oppressive.

>the 'oppressive government' is so pervasive that not only are 
>     you not *allowed* to carry handguns - people don't do it *anyway* 
   As previously pointed out, even in places were honest citizens can
legally carry, most people don't do it *anyway*.

> A can of 'blur' is probably the most 
>     you'd carry even into a *dangerous* area
>, although most people 
>     wouldn't even take Blur because they'd be more worried about the 
>     police catching them with it 
   The book clearly states that blur is legal, and widely accepted on Sylea.
The police may require that your can of blur contact them each time it's 
used, with a photo of who you just blurred.

>than about merely being mugged. 
   "merely being mugged", by someone who obviously doesn't care a 
lot about your safety and welfare.  Just how many PC's are going
to put up with this sort of treatment

>     The police would mug you *and* lock you up for a couple of 
>     months...then deport your whole family to some colony hellhole when 
>     you got out. 
   Not for blur.  Not on Sylea.  Perhaps on some hellhole of the Imperium that
you really don't want to be on anyway.  You really think having the cops
mug you, lock you up, and deport you for blur counts as 'the joy of having
government?"

>Much better to just let somebody take your money and beat you up! 
   Perhaps the players in your game enjoy getting their butts kicked
on regular basis...


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:22:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Drafts

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:

> This brings up an Official Question (tm) for Joe:
>         Is there an upper limit on how many times a character can be drafted?

Hi Allen,

Please keep in mind that any ref can do whatever s/he wants to 
with his/her own game.  So, there aren't *really* any Official Answers to 
such questions, other than those provided by individual referees.

But, let's consider the issue you've raised...

(First, this only applies to characters generated with a "target age" in 
mind.  Characters generated with the other method will muster out and 
begin adventuring the first time a continuance or injury roll is failed 
in the one - and only one - career the character is allowed prior to 
adventuring.)

Let's see what the book says about it...

p. 21: "The Draft: A character becomes subject to the draft if 1) he 
fails to pass every enlistment roll, 2) his enlistment roll is ever
exactly a 12, or 3) he volunteers for the draft."

p. 22: "Changing Careers: Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a 
person may change his chosen occupation.  For most people this is not an 
easy thing to accomplish.  Often, it is not so much a result of choice as 
of necessity: a mandatory retirement due to injury, or a failure to 
continue.  Still, some people simply choose to quit their current career 
in order to attempt a new one.
       "During character generation, when a Traveller character leaves a 
career for any reason, he may choose to pursue a different one, going 
through the enlistment process all over again.  There is a penalty for 
doing this, however.  The enlistment roll for a second career is subject 
to a DM of -2, for a third career it is a DM of -3, and so on.  All other 
DMs, qualifications, and preferences still apply."

So, the official answer is that the draft can occur any number of times 
during a character's career, but:

A character can volunteer for the draft only once, and that would occur 
prior to beginning any career (but possibly after going to any number of 
schools).  Thereafter, if s/he wants to pursue a second (or third, or 
fourth...) career, s/he must follow the rules under "changing careers."  
If the character rolls a 12 exactly or fails every enlistment roll, then 
s/he will be involuntarily submitted to the draft.

That last bit about the draft is so that if a character leaves one career 
but is still younger than the target age decided by the player, and then 
by some mischance fails every enlistment roll, they can still have a 
career to get them to the target age.

Hope this helps,


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....
Portions of the above are copyright 1996, Imperium Games.  Traveller is a 
registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.





------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:45:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please 

>>> It simply proves that Marc & friends are American ie the only inalienable
>>> right a human has is the right to bear arms.

>Nah!  The inalienable rights include..but aren't limited to..Life, Liberty
>and the *pursuit* of happiness.  Bearing arms is meant to help us maintain
>our liberty from a potentially oppressive
>government.  Although, bearing arms has shortened many, too many, lives,
>arms have also protected many others.  Finally, It was an Englishman, I
>believe, that assured us that "Happiness is a warm gun."  <g>

Not to open a can of worms, but--

Actually, the Declaration of Independence (which is where "life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness" comes from) only says those are *among* 
the inalienable rights, and the Constitution explicitly says that the 
people have any rights not explicitly limited in the Constitution itself
(a principle not very well-observed in American history).  

But the right to bear arms was, equally explicitly, put in the Bill of 
Rights in order to facilitate the raising of militias.  It isn't there 
to insure the ability of the citizens to mount armed rebellion.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Oct 1996 10:29:25 GMT
Subject: "Nemo me impune lacessit"?

Means "no one provokes me with impunity".

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:26:16 -0700
Subject: Pizeo Addendum

Thanks Dave,

Suppose I change the layout from 1 crystal lined tank to 2 and we leave one
tank empty.  Then using an added compressor switch the gases between the two
tanks.  Or we could simply compress and decompress 1 tank repeatedly.  

And I have to agree with you.  I doubted I could gain a net charge out of
this widget in <reality> but thats why its T4.  I figure its not going to
upset gameplay especially with limited power output.  Its just one of those
devices we can't truly understand until were their.  :)  

||||
O  O
 (    Brad Urwiller
 __   ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:15:53 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Errata

On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> For instance, T4 was, indeed, proofread by several people outside of IG.  
> However, the time constraints kept everyone from doing as thorough a job 
> as would otherwise have been possible, and probably also kept IG from 
> implementing every change that was suggested.

I really start to wonder about the time constraints... did they have but
three hours for editing or what?  Sorry, but I'm really sick of seeing
excuses being made for the sloppy work of Imperium Games.  By now I have
spend about $100 on their product and got nothing but an error-riddled
rulebook which is useless to me.

If I am able to read through the book in one day and can find dozens of
mistakes (and I'm a native German), why where they not able to do that?  I
doubt that I'm that much of a gifted editor >:-(

> So, we can expect version 1.1 of T4 to be far less error-filled (I 
> hesitate to say it will be perfect - I've never seen a perfect RPG<G>).  

That doesn't help us customers if we have to buy that once more.  If the
Traveller rulebook would have been car I'd sue them for "attempted murder"
or something like that :-(

Thomas "Will signed hardcovers ever show up in Germany?" Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:11:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Errata

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Jeff Freeman wrote:
> Since there are a number of people on this list that are going to buy
> these products regardless - and since those same people are VERY good at
> finding mistakes - couldn't there be some way to get these people an
> "advance copy" to proof for you?  I mean, take some of the long-timers
> on this list, the ones that are brilliant at this sort of thing, and
> offer them a cheaply-printed, no-art kinda copy that they can review for
> "...you'll find various forms..." and missing jump-drive tables and
> what-not. 

The rulebook is so riddled with errors that you simply need someone who is
able to think and read to find 95% of them.  I'm living in Germany,
English is my second language, I'm almost new to Traveller and nonetheless
was able to find dozens of mistakes in the rules and even more cases of
dumb editing, which did not help to enhance the quality of the rules.
This really tells me what Inhavw to think about the editor's skills.

> I don't mean to suggest that you folk aren't doing a real good job. 

Then I'll suggest it.  The blatant misstatements on the net, the sloppy
(nay, horrible to non-existant) editing and their dumb schedule (making
holidays when a lot of work needs to be done?!? Great idea) combined with
the failure of the hardcovers to show up by now really annoy me (could
anyone at Imperium Games tell me when the _last_ signed hardcover was sent
out?!?  I'm still waiting for mine).

I really wanted to give them a second chance but with each day passing I
really find myself wishing more and more that they'll soon suffer from
their mistakes >:-(

Sorry, but I'M really angry by now.  IG has made as many mistakes as
possible and currently they don't show any signs of improving.

Thomas "Will my signed hardcover ever show up?" Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Oct 1996 10:37:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Population Distributions and Blank Areas

>Point well taken. But this is a problem without an easy solution
>(short of computer generated Monte Carlo calculations of human
>migrations through jump space) If you want to minimize faulty
>assumptions, you could have quite a bit of work cut out for you.

[snip]

>Or you could forget dice and use a complicated Monte Carlo algorithm
>to make something really detailed. You'd have to be a pretty dedicated
>hobbyist to go this route.

The Monte Carlo method may be a bit extreme for a hobby, but with computer
technology it isn't much worse than designing a navy (or writing software).

If I am going to plunk down hard-earned cash for an official sector, I'd much
rather have it done with some kind of simulation than just randomly
generated.  Whether the simulation was something like the game GDW used to
generate the background for Traveller: 2300 (aka 2300 AD) or a computer
simulation is besides the point.

Right now I have a student working on simulations to produce gaming
backgrounds. This is the approach he came up with (independently of prompting
from me).  Hopefully he can get it working, so we will have another tool for
developing our universes.  (He's also started rolling up a Traveller
character, and keeps bugging me to start a game after school.)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:53:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Blank Areas

On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I guess I'll go ahead and send it in to IG.  I just don't want them to think that I'm 
> asking for money, or even credit for that matter.  I know I sound bull-shit humble, but 
> all that really matters to me--I'm not kidding--is improving the game.

Sounds like a good idea:  Send it to IG, with a cover letter stating 
explicitly your lack of a desire for credit, money, etc.  

You never know what'll happen!


Best wishes,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:07:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Law level and guns?

Peter Miller wrote:

>
>>Not all governments forbid you to carry a gun into their buildings. I
>>just went
>>to vote early today and noticed a sign on the county building. The sign stated
>>that it was forbidden to carry *exposed* weapons in the building. If you
>>have a
>>permit to carry a concealled weapon, you can carry it into the building; after
>>all this is Colorado. I would think that the Imperium would also set case by
>>case exceptions on wilder worlds.
>
>Exactly, and Sylea is not a wild world, so it's not gonna let you carry a
>gun into a government office, with that you could cause a lot of trouble.
>
>Also, I'd like to reiterate someone else's point that there are a lot of
>nations in the world that you do not have the write to bear arms, Canada and
>Great Britain come to mind.
>
>Thanks :)

        Well, actually, that's not entirely true.  If you define the RTBA
as the right to walk down the street with a pistol on each hip and carrying
an assault rifle, then no.  However, in Canada, the citizenry in general
has the right to purchase and keep firearms, both pistols and long guns.
The acquisition process is carefully monitored, takes some time, and
keeping guns lawfully requires that the owner register his weapons much as
he would register his cars.  There are also rules on safe storage and
transport, and on magazine size, barrel length, and rate of fire.  The
object is to preserve the right of individuals to own firearms, while at
the same time restricting ownership to non-felons and non-loonies, and
providing sanctions for irresponsible gun ownership.

        There's a fascinating debate about constitutional approaches to
civil rights out here, but I'll stop now.

        The UK, OTOH, has just banned all handguns save .22 target pistols.

        In a desperate attempt to make this somehow germane to Traveller, I
would argue that this shows up the flaw in linking law level to weaponry.
I'd argue that the US has a higher law level than Canada (in the sense that
it has a great deal more of the stuff; 53 (?) as opposed to 11 legislatures
churning out the stuff, and a much higher level of regulation), but is
laxer in the area of firearms.



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:07:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Pizeo Restatement:  We got off on the wrong foot :)

Dave Golden wrote:

>
>        It's not the pressure, it's the *flexing* -- changing mechanical
>stress. So your crystal-lined tank would produce power while you're filling
>it (the pressure differential on the crystals, and hence the compression
>stress) is increasing. But once it's full and the pressure isn't changing,
>no juice.
>
>        And I guarantee fundamental thermodynamics will prevent you from
>getting out more power through the piezo than you provide in compressing the
>gas in the first place.


        So we're back to Booty-shaking, then: why not simply have
multilayered clothing: PiezoCloth(tm) sandwiched between regular cloth:
motion provides the neccessary flex, and the power gets run to your
belt-pack recharger to keep your large collection of personal technotoys
running?

        If this would turn out to be too stiff and encumbering, try putting
PiezoCloth in your bootsoles, on the seat of your pants, and if you're
backpacking, in backpack shoulderstraps?  Or line the corridors and chairs
on a starship with the stuff?

        More importantly, dammit Jim I'm a law student not an electrical
engineer!  Anyone out there care to try and come up with some numbers for
this?



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:07:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Skills vs. Characteristics?

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>
[much snippage]
>Back to basketball... Shaquille O'Neal, the former center for the Orlando
>Magic (now a Laker) is 7'2", weighs over 300lbs, and is *fast*  Call him STR
>13 and DEX 13.  He is also one of the worst shots in professional b-ball,
>and his foul percentage (a free shot at the basket with no interference) is
>pathetic.  He has a very low score for a pro, maybe Basketball: 2.  Michael
>Jordan is strong (STR 9), fast (DEX 10) and an amazingly good player (BB:
>6).  Now you can see the differences.. Let Jordan use his skill with INT (to
>read the defence, or to fake out an opponent) and you'll see why one guy is
>staring in a movie with Bugs Bunny wearing FOUR World Championship rings,
>while the other is making bad rap records.


        OTOH, you could always argue that Shaq's speed is a function of his
strength, not his dex, and that he does have a relatively higher BB score;
just that his characteristics don't let him take advantage of it to the
point that Jordan does.

        However, I get the point: I may have considerably underestimated
the importance of skill vs. size in basketball.  My apologies to all
concerned and next time I'll use dwarf-tossing as an example of a sport
where characteristics are more important than skill <muttering noises as
the hitherto unknown fact that 75% of TMLers also belong to the Little
People's Direct Action Liberation Front is about to be revealed> :).


>
>BTW:  Shouldn't there be a cascade skill under Unarmed Combat for Ice
>Hockey?  (Go Sharks!!!)

        Absolutely.  I'm just thinking about what you could do with a TL-11
hockey stick.  Brrr...:)



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:07:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Skills vs. Characteristics?

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>On 10/22/96 at 08:53 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch
>Elliott) said:
>
>> OK then, let's replace basketball with caber tossing then.
>
>Oh please! <g>
>
>>Skills are basically what a) staying sober long enough b) to pick
>>up a telephone pole and c) lob it gracefully :)?
>
>a) Staying sober isn't a learned skill is it? <g>
>
>b) Picking up a telephone pole also isn't a skill, that's a
>charactistic only task.
>
>c) Actually tossing it..OK, there's *some* technique to that.
>
>>So basically, someone with STR 9 CABER 4 would have an advantage
>>over someone with STR 15, but once Mr. Mor Muscle (that is a joke,
>>and not a typo, incidentally) acquired CABER 1 or 2, the playing
>>field would be at least level...
>
>So what would CABER+4 imply?  It would mean that Count Caber was a
>professional Caber tosser?  A tosser of several years experience? Someone
>that could make a perfect toss in cross-winds, in the middle of a rain
>storm, while dead druck!  <g>
>
>On an *Easy* or *Average* toss Mr Mor Muscle should match up with Count
>Caber...and he does!  But the Count should still have the advantage on the
>more difficult tosses.
>
>Eris
>- --

        Depends largely on the caber.  I've seen events where the caber was
litterally an oversized, rotten fence post (apparently the one at this
year's Maxville Games was one such; one tosser managed to break it).  In
such a situation, I'd argue that Count Caber's higher skill might enable
him to evaluate the ballistic and aerodynamic consequences of it's being
lighter than usual and thereby get a good toss. OTOH, if it were a true
caber, a manly caber, a thoroughly large solid and heavy caber, Mor
Muscle's higher characteristic would enable him to put it over the top with
more ease than Count Caber's.

        And if they were going for distance (like they should) than Mor
Muscle's greater strength would put him over the edge.

        As I've threatened, what about dwarf-tossing?  <sounds of FGMP's
getting warmed up as the LPDALF prepares to strike>.  No, let's forget
that.  Shot-putting instead <disappointed grumbling from the LPDALF>:
skill involved is minimal; I had great technique back in grade school; I
just lacked the raw strenght to put the shot very far...



------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:14:30 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: World populations

Robert Flammang writes:
>But you could do things this way:
> 
>1) Roll up the physical part of the UWP first.
> 
>2) Fit your new world into one of three categories: Pleasant, Average,
>or Unpleasant.
> 
>3) Roll for the population. If the world is pleasant, roll three
>dice and throw out the lowest one. Use the remaining two dice (-2)
>to work out the population as normal. If the world is unpleasant,
>roll three dice and throw out the /highest/ one, then continue as
>normal. If two or more dice compete for the highest/lowest value,
>then it doesn't matter which of them you throw out.
> 
>This allows a full diversity of UWP's, but weights some more than
>others.
> 
>You could make this system more complicated by making more categories
>("Paradise" or "Hell-hole") and rolling four dice, and so on.

This is a splendid idea. I've long ago worked out some supplemental tables
that allowed me to get a correllation between habitability and population
while still allowing for every possible combination. They weren't all that
bulky  --  they took up one page, explanations included  --  but they were a
lot more clumsy than this. They did account for starport types too, which
your idea dosen't, but still...)

Back when I worked out settlement patterns for the Trojan Reaches, I used
six categories:

5: Earthlike: Terran-norm or Terran-prime
4: Friendly: Breathable atmosphere (4-9), Hydrographics 1-9
3: Neutral: Breathable atmosphere, Hydrographics 0 or 10.
2: Difficult: No breathable atmosphere (0-3 and A)
1: Hostile: Corrosive or (after 326) Insidious Atmosphere
0: Impossible: Insidious atmospheres (before 326)

(This was the chance per generation that a planet close to a settled planet
would get an outpost. It was also the chance that an existing outpost would
survive. If it did survive it got a roll to see if it turned into a colony
and all colonies got rolls to see if they turned into independent worlds).

Using your idea one would use 4 dice for Earthlike and Hostile planets
and 3 dice for Friendly and Difficult planets. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:35:20 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please

 
> But the right to bear arms was, equally explicitly, put in the Bill of 
> Rights in order to facilitate the raising of militias.  It isn't there 
> to insure the ability of the citizens to mount armed rebellion.

Yes, but remember that the amandments that form the bill of rights
are written in negative language  "shall not be infringed." refers
to the federal government.  It also explicitly refers to "the
people", not to the States, although reading it in such a way that
it is to make sure the feds don't interfere with any State's right
to raise a militia would be far closer to the intent than the right
of the federal gov. to raise armies.

I think it's important to note that militias of the time were all
able-bodied men, and that damn near everyone had a rifle (in those
times, and assault rifle such as it was :-)

Ob Traveller:  What is the Imperial policy regarding the local
support of squadrons?  Is there a tax-like requirement of a certain
tonnage per GPP (Gross Planetary Product) that mudt be supported in
colonial squadrons?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:59:07 +0100
Subject: Re: Pizeo Addendum

>Thanks Dave,
>
>Suppose I change the layout from 1 crystal lined tank to 2 and we leave one
>tank empty.  Then using an added compressor switch the gases between the two
>tanks.  Or we could simply compress and decompress 1 tank repeatedly.
>
>And I have to agree with you.  I doubted I could gain a net charge out of
>this widget in <reality> but thats why its T4.  I figure its not going to
>upset gameplay especially with limited power output.  Its just one of those
>devices we can't truly understand until were their.  :)

The added compression has to use at least as much power as what you get
from your crystals. No matter the TL you'll never get energy for free
unless you wan't to play "Advanced Dungeons & Starships". This is I think
not a nitpick but feel free to do a as you please in your campaign. The
conservation laws of the universe are already in a pretty bad shape from
gravthrusters and jumpdrives.


/Backman
http://www.macademic.se/Macademic/Backman/backman.html



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #598
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 23 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 599

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. IG FAQ Update
         2. Re: Starship economics
         3. Re: Traveller Costuming
         4. Re: Traveller Costuming
         5. ?
         6. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
         7. Re: We have no *Canon* today!
         8. Re: Unit mottos (was: Re: Personal Piezo Generators)
         9. Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions
        10. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        11. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        12. Re: Vehicle System is *Broken* - BADLY (?)
        13. Re: I'm back, and pretty much caught up
        14. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        15. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        16. Imperial Weapons Permits
        17. Re: Why I want Blank Areas
        18. Re: Check your guns at the door, please 
        19. Re: "Nemo me impune lacessit"?
        20. Re: Man, that sure is heavy!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:00:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: IG FAQ Update

There isn't much new stuff to report this time, so I'll just post the new 
questions added to the IG FAQ, which is available from Peter Miller's web 
site at (http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/).

Q.  Are there any IRC channels that are Traveller-related?

A.  Yes.  Use any undernet.org server (i.e., atlanta.ga.us.undernet.org,
saltlake.ut.us.undernet.org, chicago.il.us.undernet.org, or
london.uk.eu.undernet.org), and join #traveller.  It's not an official
channel yet (not enough users), but you will find at least a few fellow 
Traveller enthusiasts there most evenings (US time).
    Get in touch with your Internet Service Provider if you need 
information on using IRC.


Q.  When will an error-corrected version of Traveller be available?

A.  That's hard to say.  The real answer is, as soon as the current  
print run of traveller sells out.  IG produced one print run, and
immediately sold out.  They were still in the process of determining
all the error corrections that would be necessary in order to make
the "version 1.1" edition, so they had another print run done with the
same plates (and, therefore, the same errors).  Once that second print 
run sells out, IG will be able to have new plates made (without the
errors), get a print run done, and get the books on the shelves.
    So, reasonably, one could conjecture that IG might have the error-
corrected version of T4 out sometime during the first or second quarter
of 1997, depending on how well T4 sells during Christmas.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
         .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info....






------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 05:36:13 PST
Subject: Re: Starship economics

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>>
>>>It seems like the galley would get its power from the ship's power
>>>plant, and the wear and tear on the life support system would be
>>>covered by the ship's annual maintenance. For a one week of transit
>>>the food & water seems like it should cost less than Cr140. Also,
>>>wouldn't the life suport system be using the ship's power plant for
>>>its power requirements as well? Using a figure of Cr1000 per week for
>>>the life support cost, on what is the remaining Cr860+ spent?
>> 
>>You forget that air circulation as well as heating and cooling use
>>non-trivial amounts of power. 
>
> But irregardless of the amount, the power comes from the ship's power plant
> and that's accounted for elsewhere.

Nope. It's power that's *only* used if there are people in that stateroom.

>>Also, you are paying for water
>>*purification* and waste disposal/treatment. And then we get to air....
>
> If my ship lands on the surface of a world then I'm paying for tap water.
> It takes an awfully thirsty passenger to drink up ("process" ;-) 1800
> credits worth of water...

Except you have to balance the volume and mass of all that tap water
against the expense of recycling it. Consider: One person is going to
use 4 liters a day just for "drinking". Assume the guy is up on his
hygiene, and showers once a day. That's around *80* liters *minimum*.
Now add the water for washing his hands, flushing the john, washing his
clothes and the dishes. That's *easily* 100-200 liters a day. So we are
talking around a ton *mass* of water for a week. That requires lot of
fuel to haul around. Plus, you need *seperate* tankage for the clean
and "used" water. Multiply by the total number of passengers and crew
(and allowing for the potential of "double occupancy" of all
staterooms) and you'll suddenly discover that you *have* to recycle the
water. And that is *expensive*.

>>Depending on how you go about it air supply or recycling could have
>>costs that vary all over the place.
>  
> Indeed. That's why it would be nice to know just what you get for your
> Cr 2000. Most PC-owned ships run on a shoestring budget. Being able to
> cut corners may be important to them. But you can't do that if you don't
> know what the corners _are_. If money is tight then being required to
> burn ca. Cr 18,000 is rather irritating for a player.

You *don't* cut corners on life support. But you *can* save money by
"turning off" empty staterooms. No life-support costs for those rooms.

> Superficially plausible, but look at the figures again. Cr 200 will buy
> you a month's groceries. Good food, mark you. Not luxuries, but not
> subsistence crud either. I don't know just what that is in 1996 US$, but
> translated into Danish kroner it comes to something like the equivalent
> of $250. That means this maintenance costs you $2500 per passenger (not
> per stateroom, mind you, which would be the case in your scenario).
> Deduct $250 for 9 days of food, detergent and toilet paper, and you're
> paying $2250 per stateroom for a quick clean-up. You may believe that;
> my players wouldn't.

And powering the air & water recycling gear, the cooking facilities,
etc, etc. The load on all of these is pretty much proportional to the
number of people aboard. And "closed cycle" air and water gear is a
*lot* more expensive to operate than air conditioning, heating and
sewage in an "open cycle" environment like a typical planet.

Info on nuclear subs will help some, but they do cheat on the
water/sewage. And they have this huge heatsink they are travelling
thru.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:04:39 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

In mail you write:

>>Even so, stay away from that simple gold star on a red ribbon. The
>>folks who *earned* that one rank right up there with the CMoH.
>
> I don't know.. being a Hero of the Soviet Unoin has a certain appeal to
> it...

Well, either you are one hell of (ptoie!) "political" officer, or you
are claiming to certified "hero" material. The former ism't an honor
I'd care for, and I'm not presumptous enough to claim the latter. :-)

> If you get the U.S. Cavalry catalog (or know someone who does) the
> winter issue features a complete set of East German Police service medals,
> with the ribbons, for about $100.  These are generic looking enough for a
> casual pass in a con hallway.  The also have a ton of other EG goodies like
> shoulderboards, uniforms, etc...

My friend the collector was buying East German Army uniforms *cheap* a
few years back. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:08:53 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Costuming

In mail you write:

>> Even so, stay away from that simple gold star on a red ribbon. The
>> folks who *earned* that one rank right up there with the CMoH.
>
> "Hero of the Soviet Union," eh, Leonard??

Yep. To get that you either had to be a *real* hero, or a boot licking
zampolit. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:11:52 -0400
Subject: ?

>I just think, that could be something, where one as a GM can maneuver in 
>the gray zone between canon and anti-canon...

If they meet, will they annihilate each other?
                                                Allen


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:47:27 PST
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>> - Unstreamlined hulls are not faired, and no provision has been made for
>> atmospheric flight.  Unstreamlined hulls may NOT scoop for fuel, and may
>> only land on airless (or trace) worlds, if the ship is equipped with
>> contra-grav or has more acelleration than the surface gravity of the world.
>> Attempting to operate an unstreamlined hull within an atmosphere is
>> inherently risky; the referee should generate piloting tasks based on the
>> maneuvers attempted and the individual situation.
>
> Why can't thse maneuver in atmosphere with contragravity.  Seems like they
> could fly as slow as they wanted since they don't have to worry about lift.
> They should get penalties for high speed maneuvers (I suppose) but shouldn't
> for low speed.

The problems are twofold. First, consider that you'd have to keep the
speed relative to the atmosphere *very* low (probably under 25 km/hr).
This is necessary both to avoid undue stresses on portions of the ship,
but also because of the *very* turbulent airflow due to the irregular
shape. At that sort of velocity, it's going to take *hours* to land. 

Now consider the fact that the *winds* in the atmosphere cvan have
velocities much higher than is safe for the ship, and that velocities
of adjacent air masses can differ by *hundreds* of km/hr in distances
of 100 meters or so (jetstreams, microbursts, etc). This makes
attempting to land an unstreamlined ship far too dangerous to attempt
except in direst emergency, and if the ship is damaged that badly, it
likely won't hold together or be controllable enough *anyway*.

If you don't live in an area that gets windstorms much, try to find
some video tape of such. Sustained winds of more than 50 km/h (30 mph)
do a fair amount of damage. The occasional *gusts* up to double or
triple that will demolish structures that were expected to stand up to
*occasional* 50 km/h gusts. Since the ship is *not* designed to handle
anything except thrust, and normal manuevering, the wind loading *will*
be in directions it isn't designed to handle. Result? Chunks ripping
off the ship, loss of control, or both.

>> - Planetoid hulls are made from hollowed-out planetoids (asteriods).  Such
>> ships may NOT land on ANY world, and may NOT scoop for fuel.  Attempting to
>> land on a world will probably destroy the ship.

> Seems like a big rock wouldn't have any problem resting on the ground...
> Assuming it can take 1 G of acceleration, it shouldn't have any problem with
> a 1 G field generated by a planet...  You'll want to make sure that it rests
> upright, of course... though with artificial gravity, that's just a
> convenience...  Again, you're probably not going to want to move fast
> in an atmosphere, but if it's got contragravity or thrust equal to weight,
> it should be able to land...

The "sail area" of such a ship is so enormous as to dwarf any
reasonable manuevering thrusters. It won't be controllable. And since
it's only braced for 1g in a specific direction, you have to figure out
how to make sure the 1g is only applied in that direction. And you
*can't* land it, because it's not braced to have something *outside*
pushing on the hull that way.

There's a big difference between being braced to withstand thrust, and
being braced to support its own weight under gravity. And in large
sections of the ship, the required bracing for one will be almost the
*opposite* of that required for the other.

> They don't work at all in an atmosphere?  Why is this?  do X-ray lasers
> never work in atmosphere?

Easy. Air is *very* opaque at X-ray frequencies. The entire beam energy
would be absorbed within less than 10 meters. 

Matter of fact, that's how nuclear bombs create thermal and blast
effects. More than 90% of the energy release is soft x-rays. They only
get a few meters before being absorbed by the air. This heats the air
rather drastically, creating both the blast wave and the "thermal
pulse". In a vacuum, the blast effects are pretty minor. But the x-rays
will fry you in your boots at many, *many* kilometers. (I think we once
determined that a mere 1 meg nuke would give a fatal dose to all
unshielded personnel within something like 100,000 km in space!)

Anyway, not only does your xray laser get all the energy absorbed by
the air, the resulting blast/flare of heatr and light right in front of
your laser emitter isn't very good for the ship (or other vehicle) the
laser is mounted on. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:40:05 PST
Subject: Re: We have no *Canon* today!

In mail you write:

>> And using Black Globes/Capacitors to power Jumps (from "High Guard") *are*
>> canon?

This one gets *real* messy. I know folks who allowed free use of this
and it got kinda ugly. They had ships with huge arrays of capacitors
instead of fuel tankage (they had that too, but just enough to "basic
use" while charging the first bank of capacitors.

They had enough energy in a *small* fleet of these things to be a major
danger to any planet they were orbiting!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:53:57 PST
Subject: Re: Unit mottos (was: Re: Personal Piezo Generators)

In mail you write:

> USAF:
>
> "Peace is Our Profession" (war is just a hobby)

That's not the USAF, just SAC (Strategic Air Command). I spent enough
years looking at the "logo" and motto when we visited the local airbase.

Anybody know what motto (if any?) USAF Space Command has?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:11:04 PST
Subject: Re: [Traveller Answers] Re: T4 QSDS Questions

In mail you write:

>>An AU is an Astronomical Unit, the mean distance between the Earth and the
>>Sun (or about 150 million km).  A communicator with a 1000AU range can
>>reliably communicate with any appropriate reciever anywhere within the same
>>star system.  This exceeds the longest space combat range by a large amount.
>
> Far companion stars are separated by 1T6 x 1000 AU, are there comm units
> that can communicate this far? (Of course there are)

Even at a "mere" 1000 AU, don't hold your breath waiting for a reply.
It takes light roughly 500 seconds to cross *one* AU. so at 1000 AU,
it's roughly 6 days each way (5.78). So you send a question on Monday,
they receive it on Sunday, and you get the reply on the *second*
Saturday after you asked.

Ok for exchanging data, and news/entertainment, but any *real* dialog
is better served by microjumpimg. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 03:59:16 PST
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

In mail you write:

> Here's a suggestion: How about giving at least a small amount of data for
> all systems in all sectors, but denoting in some way if a system can be
> safely changed, without having to worry about future supplements giving
> more info. This way, a ref can safely modify a system without having to
> worry about his universe and the 'real' Traveller universe diverging. What
> do you think?

That's "sort of" what we've been asking for. Except that some of us
want the "safe" stuff to *not* be little isolated dribs and drabs. 

Say this is a map of the sectors in and around the Imperium. @ marks
Core. And lets have ? mark the deliberately left blank sectors.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | |?|?| | | | | |?|?|?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | |?| | | | | |?|?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|?|?|?|?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | |?| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|?|?|?|?|?|?|?| | | | | | | | |@| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|?|?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |?| | | | | | | | |?|?|?|?|?|?| | | | | |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |?|?| | | | | | | | | |?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|?|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | | |?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | |?|?|?|?|?|?|?|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| | | | | | | | | | | |?|?|?|?| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |?|?|?|?|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Pretty poor drawing, but I hope you get the idea. The "point" sector
"throws a shadow" so all the sectors in the shadow are also "unknown,
but you still get equal *proportations* of know/unkown as you expand
outwards. 

And frankly, as we expand outwards, the number of sectors to be
detailed goes up rather quickly. 

radius	number of "new" sectors added
- ------	-----------------------------
1	1
2	8
3	16
4	24
5	32

At some point official material will either get really scarce, or it
will be really poor.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:29:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> Isn't there anything to be said for consistency?

Earlier this year I introduced some players to Traveller (background only, GURPS 
mechanics) and what they were most impressed by was a huge prepared, consistent 
universe. 

> The method that you are advocating is like watching Star Trek, except the Romulans no
> longer border both the Klingons and the Federation this season.  The producers didn't
> like that idea, so they changed it.

Traveller's appeal to me was always a huge consistent (key word) universe. A friend of 
mine runs a star wars campaign and he said he envies Traveller refs their universe

> > IG should detail whatever they want to detail...no more, no less. 
> You've got to be kidding me.  IG should listen to their fans and give them what they
> want.  We are what makes IG exist, and I think they know this.

Otherwise, why don't I just buy white wolf products, they are like that.
Traveller is now and always will be, BACKGROUND

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:33:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Vehicle System is *Broken* - BADLY (?)

Could you send the Vehicle Design system as HTML?

I couldn't open mine because it was in a program that this MAc could not read.

I would like to check that out too

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:35:38 +0000
Subject: Re: I'm back, and pretty much caught up

ould someone copy the tables and send em to me. I have longed for the AHL

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:43:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > When developing Traveller 'history', a lot of people try to tie their stories
> > into published information. In fact, many of Traveller's biggest
> > inconsistencies have come from someone treating a throwaway reference as
> > 'canon' and extrapolating from it.  If I decide to change the world of
> > Sulieman (for example), then I have to change all references to Sulieman in
> > all published material.  In other words, with every new product I will have
> > to scan its library data to see if I have to alter anyting for my universe.
> 
> Yes!

Why not discard the entire Traveller Universe?
Make your own background, your own history. Then you are free to modify everthing 
without fear of contradiction
I could do it, fairly easily, and it would be interesting and consistent.
BUT... I like Traveller's background, the little fiddly details help me make adventures
The UPPs are fun to read (yes, they are) because I see stories in them (why a TL F 
world next to this TL 4, well?)
If you don't want a background, don't buy it!
But please, don't discourage IG from even thinking about it.

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:45:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Not gonna happen. It's already been "officially" stated that the
> program used by DGP to generate sectors was "broken", and new data
> *will* be different. Right down to star locations.

So, the Atlas of the Imperium (by GDW) is non-canon?

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:37:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Imperial Weapons Permits

Hi.

Re: Imperial Weapons Permits.

It seems to me some folks are getting way too excited about this. The
Impy laws governing where you can or cannot take a gun are only going to
apply to those territories governed by the empire, like starports,
consulates, reserves, bases, et cetera. Same as it ever was.

It will most certainly NOT apply to the mainworlds of systems, since
those worlds govern themselves. You need no permit from the empire to
carry a weapon there. And no Impy permit will entitle you to carry a
weapon there. To see whether you can walk around with your favorite gun,
consult the local law level. Same as it ever was.

As in the real world, weapon laws will vary from government to
government. There will be a full diversity of adventure settings in
Trav, as far as these (and other) things are concerned. Same as there
ever was.

I, for one, am glad to finally hear what the Impy rules are. It makes sense
that they would be uniform and not dependent on local law level.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:48:04 +0000
Subject: Re: Why I want Blank Areas

Joe Walsh wrote:
> > There are no rules, only suggestions, and grist for the mill!
> Hey, sounds like a good tagline for IG's advertisements. :)

Or how about, Errors and Omissions
Or "you bought the game, we provide the art, roll your own bloody universe"

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:50:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Check your guns at the door, please 

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> But the right to bear arms was, equally explicitly, put in the Bill of
> Rights in order to facilitate the raising of militias.  It isn't there
> to insure the ability of the citizens to mount armed rebellion.

Not according to T Jefferson.
He says something to the effect that he would not want to live in a society that did not 
have a revolution every twenty years

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:52:01 +0000
Subject: Re: "Nemo me impune lacessit"?

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Means "no one provokes me with impunity".

I though it meant "I am Captain Nemo, and with impunity I sit on lace"

------------------------------

From: Amused to Death <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:57:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Man, that sure is heavy!

for bullets (this is reality checked)
Straight cartridge case, reduce weight and length by 5% per mm over 5mm
Necked cartridge cases, reduce weight and length by 10% overall

But yes, I have noticed the ridiculous numbers
I tried to make an M-16 based on real world stats, and the bugger weighed over 5 kilos 
loaded

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #599
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